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CNN Live Saturday

Columbia Tragedy: A Year Later

Aired January 31, 2004 - 12:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It was the most devastating tragedy for America's space program since the Challenger disaster. A year ago tomorrow, the Columbia broke apart during re-entry, killing all seven crewmembers on board.
CNN space correspondent, Miles O'Brien, now on NASA's recovery and how it's learning from the tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One year later, Jon Clark is dealing we equal parts of grief and guilt.

JON CLARK, NASA NEUROLOGIST: I'm as much responsible as anyone else.

O'BRIEN: A NASA neurologist, Clark is part of the space shuttle medical team. He was in Houston's mission control while Columbia, carrying Laurel - his wife -- was in orbit. And he is haunted by what he and his colleagues did not do for the crew once they saw foam hit Columbia's wing on launch.

CLARK: There were things that could have turned this into a heroic Apollo 13-style rescue and success. We snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Instead, we just let it go.

O'BRIEN: It haunts the space shuttle program, as well. NASA veteran Wayne Hale became the No. 2 man in the shuttle program after the accident.

WAYNE HALE, DEPUTY SHUTTLE PROGRAM MANAGER: When you become confronted with a life changing event -- and it really -- for many of us. Columbia was a life-changing event -- then you have to go back to the basics and say, what have we got to change to make sure that we don't make this mistake again?

O'BRIEN: The independent team that investigated the crash offered 15 specific recommendations. NASA engineers clearly have embraced the technical tasks -- fixing tiles and foam and heat- shielding carbon panels.

But progress on perhaps the most important prescript, changing the way decisions are made, is much harder to measure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We built a fairly high mountain for NASA to climb, and they are still working at it. O'BRIEN: Retired Admiral Hal Gayman led the inquest that concluded the shuttle program talked about safety, but put tremendous pressure on the team to meet a budget and build a space station on a tight schedule.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And people who bring up reasons to slow down the process or make the process more expensive are not very welcome, and therein is the problem.

O'BRIEN: That is why no one bothered to conduct a test like this before the accident. They assumed falling foam was harmless. It is also why managers blew off e-mails the engineering trenches expressing concern for Columbia during the mission.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We still see people coming to work that exhibit the old way of doing business and you have to get them by shoulder and say, Now, look, this is a new world. We're going to operate in a different and better way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, we are quite confident that at least at the very top of NASA that they do get it. That puts a tremendous burden on the top two or three levels of management to instill that new philosophy and new culture into the entire organization.

O'BRIEN: But people inside the shuttle program say pangs of collective guilt and remorse have done more to change the thinking here than any edict from on high.

There's a lot more honest talk now, but that happened after Challenger as well. And eventually, old habits took root once again.

CLARK: So you see that complacency and even to a point arrogance in how we did -- were doing things -- that has emerged and now in the aftermath of it, wow. Jeez. What were we thinking?

(on camera): In the wake of Columbia, there are many who wonder if the shuttle can be flown safely at all.

But Hal Gayman is not among them. He believes NASA can safely return to flight by the fall, as it plans. But he worries about what can happen over time as memory fades and complacency takes root.

Miles O'Brien, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: In the wake of the Columbia tragedy, President Bush has lofty ambitions for NASA's future. The president announced plans this month for a manned mission to then moon and then on to Mars. And that will require huge outlays of money. But is space exploration worth the money?

From CNN Center in Atlanta, we welcome space policy analyst Nick Fuhrman.

Good to see you, Nick. NICK FUHRMAN, SPACE POLICY ANALYST: Good afternoon, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Before talking about the future, let's talk about right now. Most recently, NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe said during a memorial for the seven astronauts that they are not here because we failed.

So, since we saw in Miles' piece that corrections have been made, how will we know that enough corrections have been made for everyone to feel comfort with the space program again?

FUHRMAN: Well, you may never know.

I mean, we have -- under the president's announced policy, which is much needed for NASA to - in order to organize itself and know where it's going -- there are 25 - approximately 25 more shuttle flights. And if you can survive those, then I think we'll get through an era of the severe anxiety, the system that the shuttle is still requires a million signatures before it's prepared to be launched. And as a result of that, a million chances for failure.

Now, as a result of the accident investigation, there are going to be additional safety procedures and forms to be filled out, and I don't have that much confidence in the forms and the papers. I have confidence in the NASA people who, if they're listened to, can fly this thing safely.

WHITFIELD: So do you have confidence that the safety culture and criticisms about complacency will no longer be as prominent an issue?

FUHRMAN: They can't be. I think people really have gotten the message that they have to listen to one another.

When you're launching a shuttle and you have somebody who raises a red flag, you'd better stop and listen to them. And in the case of Columbia, after the launch, the people who are very concerned about this icicle, the foamcicle that hit the wing, were just not listened to. And I think NASA's gotten -- if they haven't gotten the message, they have a very simple formula now. And that is, as they operate this program, they have to listen to one another and really run down the details.

There was opportunity, as Laurel Clark's husband said in the piece that Miles did - there was opportunity to save these people.

WHITFIELD: There are some predictions that a shuttle could be lunched as early as September. Others say 2005. What's your most comfortable prediction?

FUHRMAN: I really leave it to NASA and the task group that is headed by Commander Covey (ph) and former astronaut Tom Stafford (ph) to check that NASA is achieving all the things on their work plan to get the shuttle flying again. They are overseeing NASA's work, and if they say it's ready to go, that'll be better than hearing NASA saying it's ready to go. September may or may not be realistic. I think we should only launch when we're ready and when people are confident that everything technically has been done that was asked of NASA by the Columbia accident investigation board.

WHITFIELD: Well, let's talk even further now into the future. With the two rovers on Mars, perhaps -- is the competence growing that this successful mission might expedite the president's projected plan of phasing out shuttles all together and perhaps even potentially putting the man on the moon again and even on Mars?

FUHRMAN: Well, clearly, the rovers are demonstrating that there is a NASA that does amazing,, nearly impossible things on a regular basis. I mean, the fact that we have these rovers hitting the bullseye, so to speak, and operating -- the way they've worked around the problems that Spirit was having with its computer. This demonstrates there is a culture at NASA that works. This demonstrates that they have the capacity to pull through a crisis.

So I have confidence in the organization, you know, in general. And I think the president realized if he didn't give NASA a vision of where it was going, you could actually see the end of NASA coming within 20 years. You could see in the same time frame the president wants to put people back on the moon, you could see NASA becoming, you know, absorbed by other agencies in the government, some...

WHITIFIELD: Do you think there were NASA administrators that helped sell that point to the president, and that's why consequently we have this very lofty, ambitious plan of his?

FUHRMAN: My understanding is that the president really identified NASA as needing severe adult supervision, presidential leadership, and it was the president who put this plan in place. And, I mean, the plan can't go forward if NASA is not making significant progress -- A, in, you know, closing out the shuttle program. And B, building the new vehicles.

And so, this is all performance-based. NASA's never been set up on a performance-based program. This was the president's doing.

WHITFIELD: All right. Nick Fuhrman, thank you very much -- space policy analyst -- for joining us.

FUHRMAN: Thank you, Fredricka.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired January 31, 2004 - 12:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It was the most devastating tragedy for America's space program since the Challenger disaster. A year ago tomorrow, the Columbia broke apart during re-entry, killing all seven crewmembers on board.
CNN space correspondent, Miles O'Brien, now on NASA's recovery and how it's learning from the tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One year later, Jon Clark is dealing we equal parts of grief and guilt.

JON CLARK, NASA NEUROLOGIST: I'm as much responsible as anyone else.

O'BRIEN: A NASA neurologist, Clark is part of the space shuttle medical team. He was in Houston's mission control while Columbia, carrying Laurel - his wife -- was in orbit. And he is haunted by what he and his colleagues did not do for the crew once they saw foam hit Columbia's wing on launch.

CLARK: There were things that could have turned this into a heroic Apollo 13-style rescue and success. We snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Instead, we just let it go.

O'BRIEN: It haunts the space shuttle program, as well. NASA veteran Wayne Hale became the No. 2 man in the shuttle program after the accident.

WAYNE HALE, DEPUTY SHUTTLE PROGRAM MANAGER: When you become confronted with a life changing event -- and it really -- for many of us. Columbia was a life-changing event -- then you have to go back to the basics and say, what have we got to change to make sure that we don't make this mistake again?

O'BRIEN: The independent team that investigated the crash offered 15 specific recommendations. NASA engineers clearly have embraced the technical tasks -- fixing tiles and foam and heat- shielding carbon panels.

But progress on perhaps the most important prescript, changing the way decisions are made, is much harder to measure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We built a fairly high mountain for NASA to climb, and they are still working at it. O'BRIEN: Retired Admiral Hal Gayman led the inquest that concluded the shuttle program talked about safety, but put tremendous pressure on the team to meet a budget and build a space station on a tight schedule.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And people who bring up reasons to slow down the process or make the process more expensive are not very welcome, and therein is the problem.

O'BRIEN: That is why no one bothered to conduct a test like this before the accident. They assumed falling foam was harmless. It is also why managers blew off e-mails the engineering trenches expressing concern for Columbia during the mission.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We still see people coming to work that exhibit the old way of doing business and you have to get them by shoulder and say, Now, look, this is a new world. We're going to operate in a different and better way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, we are quite confident that at least at the very top of NASA that they do get it. That puts a tremendous burden on the top two or three levels of management to instill that new philosophy and new culture into the entire organization.

O'BRIEN: But people inside the shuttle program say pangs of collective guilt and remorse have done more to change the thinking here than any edict from on high.

There's a lot more honest talk now, but that happened after Challenger as well. And eventually, old habits took root once again.

CLARK: So you see that complacency and even to a point arrogance in how we did -- were doing things -- that has emerged and now in the aftermath of it, wow. Jeez. What were we thinking?

(on camera): In the wake of Columbia, there are many who wonder if the shuttle can be flown safely at all.

But Hal Gayman is not among them. He believes NASA can safely return to flight by the fall, as it plans. But he worries about what can happen over time as memory fades and complacency takes root.

Miles O'Brien, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: In the wake of the Columbia tragedy, President Bush has lofty ambitions for NASA's future. The president announced plans this month for a manned mission to then moon and then on to Mars. And that will require huge outlays of money. But is space exploration worth the money?

From CNN Center in Atlanta, we welcome space policy analyst Nick Fuhrman.

Good to see you, Nick. NICK FUHRMAN, SPACE POLICY ANALYST: Good afternoon, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Before talking about the future, let's talk about right now. Most recently, NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe said during a memorial for the seven astronauts that they are not here because we failed.

So, since we saw in Miles' piece that corrections have been made, how will we know that enough corrections have been made for everyone to feel comfort with the space program again?

FUHRMAN: Well, you may never know.

I mean, we have -- under the president's announced policy, which is much needed for NASA to - in order to organize itself and know where it's going -- there are 25 - approximately 25 more shuttle flights. And if you can survive those, then I think we'll get through an era of the severe anxiety, the system that the shuttle is still requires a million signatures before it's prepared to be launched. And as a result of that, a million chances for failure.

Now, as a result of the accident investigation, there are going to be additional safety procedures and forms to be filled out, and I don't have that much confidence in the forms and the papers. I have confidence in the NASA people who, if they're listened to, can fly this thing safely.

WHITFIELD: So do you have confidence that the safety culture and criticisms about complacency will no longer be as prominent an issue?

FUHRMAN: They can't be. I think people really have gotten the message that they have to listen to one another.

When you're launching a shuttle and you have somebody who raises a red flag, you'd better stop and listen to them. And in the case of Columbia, after the launch, the people who are very concerned about this icicle, the foamcicle that hit the wing, were just not listened to. And I think NASA's gotten -- if they haven't gotten the message, they have a very simple formula now. And that is, as they operate this program, they have to listen to one another and really run down the details.

There was opportunity, as Laurel Clark's husband said in the piece that Miles did - there was opportunity to save these people.

WHITFIELD: There are some predictions that a shuttle could be lunched as early as September. Others say 2005. What's your most comfortable prediction?

FUHRMAN: I really leave it to NASA and the task group that is headed by Commander Covey (ph) and former astronaut Tom Stafford (ph) to check that NASA is achieving all the things on their work plan to get the shuttle flying again. They are overseeing NASA's work, and if they say it's ready to go, that'll be better than hearing NASA saying it's ready to go. September may or may not be realistic. I think we should only launch when we're ready and when people are confident that everything technically has been done that was asked of NASA by the Columbia accident investigation board.

WHITFIELD: Well, let's talk even further now into the future. With the two rovers on Mars, perhaps -- is the competence growing that this successful mission might expedite the president's projected plan of phasing out shuttles all together and perhaps even potentially putting the man on the moon again and even on Mars?

FUHRMAN: Well, clearly, the rovers are demonstrating that there is a NASA that does amazing,, nearly impossible things on a regular basis. I mean, the fact that we have these rovers hitting the bullseye, so to speak, and operating -- the way they've worked around the problems that Spirit was having with its computer. This demonstrates there is a culture at NASA that works. This demonstrates that they have the capacity to pull through a crisis.

So I have confidence in the organization, you know, in general. And I think the president realized if he didn't give NASA a vision of where it was going, you could actually see the end of NASA coming within 20 years. You could see in the same time frame the president wants to put people back on the moon, you could see NASA becoming, you know, absorbed by other agencies in the government, some...

WHITIFIELD: Do you think there were NASA administrators that helped sell that point to the president, and that's why consequently we have this very lofty, ambitious plan of his?

FUHRMAN: My understanding is that the president really identified NASA as needing severe adult supervision, presidential leadership, and it was the president who put this plan in place. And, I mean, the plan can't go forward if NASA is not making significant progress -- A, in, you know, closing out the shuttle program. And B, building the new vehicles.

And so, this is all performance-based. NASA's never been set up on a performance-based program. This was the president's doing.

WHITFIELD: All right. Nick Fuhrman, thank you very much -- space policy analyst -- for joining us.

FUHRMAN: Thank you, Fredricka.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com