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CNN Live Saturday

President Bush, President Fox Meet In Crawford, Texas; Haitian Splinter Group Threatens U.S. Marines; Is Martha Inc. Doomed?

Aired March 06, 2004 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's 12:00 noon in New York; 11:00 a.m. in Crawford, Texas and I'm Bob Franken in Washington. This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Up ahead, the latest on President Bush's summit with Mexico's president, Vicente Fox.

Also, the day after the big verdict: Indepth coverage of the impact on Martha Stewart's media empire.

Later, growing resentment in Haiti over U.S. Marines and the threat of attacks on U.S. Troops.

But first, the headlines. A U.S. State Department warning for Americans in Venezuela. The potential for violence is high. The country's been the scene of rioting over the political future of Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez. Hundreds of people are in the streets today with a larger march planned tomorrow.

Violence at a crossing point between Israel and Gaza has left several Palestinians dead and nine people injured. Officials say one Palestinian attacker fired on Israeli soldier who is fired back and killed them. A second attacker blew himself up. There's confusion how Palestinian guards died. The violence follows militant's promises of revenge for recent Israeli air strikes.

Funeral services are being held today in Ohio for the outspoken woman that once owned the Cincinnati Reds baseball team. He was suspended from baseball for favorable comments about Hitler and criticism of minorities. Marge Schott was 75.

Attorney general John Ashcroft is hospitalized at this hour and likely to stay there through the weekend. He's suffering a serious case of gallstone pancreatitis. Ashcroft is being treated at the intensive care unit of George Washington University Hospital in Washington.

And right now, in Texas, and Mexican president Fox, as we mentioned a moment ago, are getting down to serious talks on immigration and border security. Mr. Fox wants new fingerprinting rules eased on Mexicans entering the U.S. The leaders are meeting at the Bush ranch near Crawford. The White House says the event not available to us live, however we do plan to bring you a live report later in the hour. Earlier, the president's radio address focused on Iraq and the difficulties there making the transition to democracy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Fighting alongside the people of Iraq, we will defeat the terrorists that seek to plunge Iraq into chaos and violence and we will stand with the people of Iraq for as long as necessary to build a stable, peaceful, and successful democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: As for John Kerry, there's no rest for his campaign this weekend which traveled to the president's backyard in Houston and Kerry gave today's democratic radio address trying to move a couple of steps ahead of the president on national security and defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today, our security is being weakened, our military is being overextended, our reserves overstrained, and our allies driven away. And on Thusday, we learned air marshals are being cut. I believe keeping our military strong and keeping our troops as safe as they can be, should be our highest priority. That's why I believe we need to relieve the reserves by temporarily expanding the size of the active duty forces by 40,000 troops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Kerry's also criticizing the president for millions of jobs lost.

From politics to legal matters, after the guilty verdict, Martha Stewart said she remains upbeat. Now, she's scheduled to be sentenced in three months, but still the queen of homemaking predicts that her appeal will be successful.

Stewart was convicted yesterday of conspiracy, obstruction, and making false statements. And while the verdict could carry a 20-year sentence, legal observers say it's highly likely that she would serve only a fraction of that time.

CNN financial correspondent Allen Chernoff has been following the trial in New York.

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Bob, there are probably a million places Martha Stewart would rather be, but on Monday morning, she's going to have to come right back here to, lower Manhattan to the court complex. Judge Miriam Cedarbaum ordered Stewart to appear at the probation office where she'll get her probation guidelines until her sentencing date of June 17.

Now, as you know, yesterday, the jury did find Martha Stewart guilty on all four criminal counts, concluding that Stewart and her stockbroker, Peter Bacanovic, had lied about the true reason that Martha Stewart sold her ImClone shares. In court, Judge Miriam Cedarbaum read the verdict, "guilty" four times. Martha Stewart, herself, showed very little emotion. The big emotion came from the lead prosecutor, Karen Seymour who is fighting back tears.

Now, one juror after the verdict said that some of the most critical evidence came from Martha Stewart's personal assistant Anne Armstrong who, herself, took the message from Peter Bacanovic saying that ImClone would begin trading downward.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAPPELL HARTRIDGE, JUROR: That was very strong because that was the -- Martha's way of trying to cover this up about the message Peter left. That was very strong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: Armstrong had testified that Stewart sat down at her assistant's computer and changed the message -- the message that Bacanovic had left on the phone log. Now, Stewart's attorneys and Bacanovic's attorneys say they intend to appeal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD STRASSBERG, BACANOVIC'S ATTORNEY: It's been a horrible ordeal for Peter, but he is going to make it through, and we will ultimately be vindicated in the end.

ROBERT MORVILLO, STEWART'S ATTORNEY: It was a difficult process for all of us. Like Rich Strassberg, we are disappointed at the outcome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: Martha Stewart has more legal problems, as well. The Securities and Exchange Commission has a civil insider trading suit against Martha Stewart. Remember, the federal prosecutors from the Justice Department did not charge Martha Stewart with criminal insider trading, but the SEC has charged her with insider trading and now that this case is over, the SEC intends to bring its case -- Bob.

FRANKEN: Alan Chernoff in New York.

Thank you, Allan.

Stewart's business empire was once worth a billion dollars, but it's lower since her legal troubles began and the big question now is: Will she and her company be able to bounce back?

Here's CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Martha in her better days, cooking things up in the kitchen and marketing domestic perfection in a way no one has done before. The question we asked superstar ad executives: Can she did do it with a conviction?

RON BERGER, CEO, EURO RSCG, MVBMS PARTNERS: I think it's going to be a very difficult and very long road -- you know, for her to be able to ever come back to what -- you know, what she stood -- because again, she stood for something that this charge drives right at the heart of.

CARROLL: Ad exec, Richard Kirshenbaum disagrees saying a reason some like dislike Stewart is now gone.

KIRSHENBAUM, KIRSHENBAUM BOND, AND PARTNERS: I think in a certain sense, now Martha is the underdog. And I think that women don't perceive her as being as perfect as she was in the past and I actually think that there'll be a groundswell of emotion, a movement towards embracing Martha and her brand.

CARROLL: And what a brand, the Stewart name is on everything from bed sheets to gardening tools.

MARTHA STEWART, "MARTHA STEWART LIVING": This is an amazing hand tool.

CARROLL: Stewart's company says we are deeply saddened by the news of Martha Stewart's conviction. "We're confident that our assets are more than sufficient to continue MSO's development as a leading "how to" brand building company."

But how can you separate the name from the brand? One industry leader says keeping the name and the face might be a good thing.

JAMS TENNY, LEVY TENNY: Now, this is crisis management at this point. I think honesty, stepping forward, having a point of view, and not receding and -- from the public view is one of the most important things she could do.

CARROLL: Many consumers we spoke to say they still believe in the brand and the woman behind it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just think that she's getting a scapegoated for something everyone's doing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd buy the products, but I wouldn't buy the stock.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll still continue to support her and her products but -- you know, I am kind of like cool on her character. I don't think she's the best person.

CARROLL: The board of directors from Martha Stewart Living Omni Media will meet very soon to discuss the implications of the verdict and to take actions as appropriate.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And some key questions come to mind on this day after Martha Stewart's conviction. Will she have to go to prison while the case is under appeal and if so, what kind of facility could she end up in? So, let's speak now to former defense attorney Rusty Hardin about all of these things.

First of all, Rusty, we keep hearing, "But, she probably will not serve all that time," the time being the twenty years or so that would be possible, that's obvious, they're the sentencing guidelines. Maybe you could explain that a little e bit more.

RUSTY HARDIN, FRM. DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah. The four counts that she was convicted of, each carry a maximum sentence of five years and a $250,000 fine. A judge could theoretically stack them on top of another, but there's no reason to believe that the judge would do that in this case, which means that her maximum exposure on each count is five years, if they are served concurrently, then you go to the sentencing guidelines to see, that the federal system is governed by, and that's why everybody is saying they expect her, probably be sentenced to between 10 and 16 months if the court follows the guidelines.

FRANKEN: Well, what are the considerations?

HARDIN: Well, she's a first offender, the nature of the offense, the -- it is almost just -- it is a chart. There's very little discretion a judge has in the federal system any longer, which is actually been a subject of some controversy among the federal courts for sometime. But, you have just simply different things taken into consideration, prior offense, the seriousness of the harm, the amount of money lost, etcetera, and I doubt there is a money issue here, so really, I think most people look at her as a first offender, that would be in the bottom range of the sentence, but the judge makes that decision.

FRANKEN: And as to where she would serve, it would seem, off the top of my head, that she would be going to a minimum security facility, somewhere.

HARDIN: I would suspect so. The bureau of prisons makes that decision, not really the judge. The meeting, for instance, that you have already had talked about that she has with the probation department, Monday morning, is a standard interview. They do a long interview with her about background and everything and they prepare a persistence report that is then confidentially submitted to the judge and the attorneys on both sides for the judge to decide where in that range she should be sentenced and then the bureau of prisons, after the sentence is pronounced, will decides where she goes.

FRANKEN: Rusty, with just a few seconds left, the question is, while she's appealing, will she serve? Probably so, correct?

HARDIN: Probably. Although the judge could leave her on bond while they appeal this, but most of the time they go on and begin their sentence while the appealing is pending.

FRANKEN: Rusty Hardin has had tremendous experience with this. Thank you for sharing some with us and we're going to have much more on Martha Stewart today on "People in the News" which looks at the highs and lows of her phenomenal career. "People in the News" airs today at 5:00 p.m. Eastern. The push to restore law and order to Haiti: U.S. Marines fan out from the capital. What should they expect to find in rebel strongholds?

Plus: It's the people's...

The crash and burn in Iowa: We'll take you behind the scenes of Howard Dean's ill-fated run for the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: To Haiti now, and efforts to restore law and order. This, a week after the president fled the island. The council of seven sages is assigned with the task of tapping a prime minister.

Meanwhile, supporters of Jean-Bertrand Aristide marched on the U.S. Embassy in Port-au-Prince. The crowd chanted "up with Aristide and down with Bush." They denounced U.S. peacekeepers as an occupation force. Some of those U.S. Marines have moved out of the Haitian capital trying to provide security in former rebel strongholds of the north and west. Canadian troops are expected the join the multinational effort, next week.

So here we have U.S. troops back in Haiti ten years after American forces went there to restore Aristide to power. So the question is: What will they face now? And for that, we turn to our security analyst Kelly McCann.

Kelly, first of all, there's a huge irony here, in fact there are several ironies about the United States being in there. The one we just described, that it was the United States that put Aristide in ten years ago. What will the Marines going to face this time?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: I'll add one more irony on to that. And you may remember this, Bob, that as soon as Aristide did land back in Haiti, he gad vehement anti-American speeches, so at leaves the war community scratching their head quite a bit, but the Marines face an unstable situation. Obviously, an important things during the first evolution in is the 1994 was military information support teams. Your direct experience, you'll harken back to, everything there runs on rumor, so the extent that you can keep the people informed factually about what's going on, you can avert a lot of terrible situations -- Bob.

FRANKEN: But, if there's one word to describe Haiti almost inherently, it is the workd "chaos."

MCCANN: There's no doubt about it. I mean, it's a very, very almost ungovernable place. The governments have always been fraught with some kind of thuggery, both back down to the tonton macu (PH), then the anti-Shays, the Samir underneath President Aristide. There's always been that level of uncontrolled henchmen that are out in the community that makes things difficult to gauge.

FRANKEN: Well, there's a man now, who is particularly important in Washington. A man by the name of Toussaint and you know him well, don't you?

MCCANN: Yes I do. He's very charismatic. Danny Toussaint has been involved with Mr. Aristide for sometime. Many of the people in country know him. He has a large following, a support base, but there are also a lot of people looking at him with interest in the United States.

FRANKEN: Well, the U.S. Marines, of course, are a military force, but this is a country that is, in effect, without a government, right now. Is it fair to expect that the Marines are going to take up the policing duties, the civil engineering duties? That type of thing, at least temporarily?

MCCANN: My discussions with Department of Defense officials this week led to three things. One, that this is a reengagement with the French. The second thing is that the French may use their Jean-Domari (PH) similar to the way they did in Surinam and the Central African Republic, to use them as the trainers, unlike the first iteration, where the U.S. provided a lot of international police monitor. And lastly, U.N. involvement, which I think will grow over some time.

Remember, Bob, that over $3.2 billion spent to correct the situation ten years ago, and here we go again.

FRANKEN: Ah, here we go again with no prospect that it's going to getting any better, I would think.

MCCANN: Absolutely.

FRANKEN: Thank you very much, Kelly.

And as we move along now, let's move along to a more pleasant subject than the dangers in Haiti, and that's lunchtime. If it is lunchtime where you are here's a thought:

You really will be loving it if you walk into McDonald's at the right time in weekend and we'll tell you why.

And, here's something you don't see every day unless of course you live in Hawaii. Hot off the presses, when CNN's Saturday returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: Over the next 24 hours, McDonald's customers across America are going to discover a whole new meaning to Happy Meal. You'll have no fat, no carbohydrates, no calories. In fact, as CNN's Jennifer Coggiola explains, it's nothing but green.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JENNIFER COGGIOLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): SMcDonald's is offering you a lot of cash for nothing. Here's the deal: Walk into the right participating McDonald's at the right time now through Sunday and if you're randomly selected, you'll walk away with a million bucks. You don't even have to buy a burger. So, why? Because they have to. Quote, "This give away is being offered pursuant to the stipulation of settlement."

The settlement is the result of a past contest in 2001 that was rigged by someone from outside the company who walked away with more than $13 million.

SUSAN KUBLAND, DIRECTOR, MCDONALD'S MARKETING: It's simply our way of showing our customers our confidence and our trust with them and making available to them prizes that they should have had.

BOB GOLDWIN, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, TECHNOMICS INC.: There's almost a begrudging element to it, as opposed to the way they normally do business.

COGGIOLA: Guidelines depict the winners, a restaurant in a time of day will randomly be chosen ahead of time, then a group of judges will position themselves in the restaurant. And identify a potential winner. Namely, the first customer who walks in or pulls up at the drive-thru.

And surely, McDonald's is loving it these days. On Friday, the company reported worldwide sales were up for the tenth consecutive month. Success attributed to the new menu items like, all-white chicken nuggets and their new ad campaigns.

In another move that could attract a more health conscious clientele, McDonalds is eliminating super sized french-fries and soft drinks from their menu by the end of 2004. Menu changes that focus on an issue spotlighted in a new documentary film, "Super Size Me," that follows a man who eats McDonald's every meal, everyday and packs on 25 pounds.

(on camera): Now, the company has denied that the film had anything to do with the super size deletions on the menu, that in fact, it was just to improve operations and to reduce overhead.

Jennifer Coggiola, CNN Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And more news across America. A school bus surveillance tape captures an act of heroism in West Virginia. When a 17-year-old choked on a sandwich, a classmate came to the rescue with some Heimlich know-how. Now Craig Hicks is called the "Heimlich Hero." His friend, Nathan Pybus is in hot water for having food on the bus.

Motorists in Washington State are asked to take care through mountain passes. More than a foot of snow fell in parts of the Cascades. Forecasters were also calling for snow in the Olympics and in the eastern part of the state.

Now to switch, it's hot. Lava that's in focus atop Hawaii's Kilauea volcano -- Kilauea volcano, and it's an eruption that continues a 20-year tradition. Lava has now been flowing continuously from Fishers on Hawaii's big island since January 1983. And now, have a two-step agenda in the "Lone Star" state. President Bush and Mexico's leader focuses on immigration and border security. We'll be live with the story.

Plus, hanging on for dear life. A risky operation -- risky rescue operation in the outback.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're streaming live from here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Howard Dean as you've probably not seen him before. His rise and fall from the inside out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: Headlines at the half hour. The former chief United Nations weapons inspector takes a jab at President Bush and Britain's prime minister in a new book. Hans Blix says, both allied leaders were seduced by unproven intelligence reports in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. Nearly a year after the invasion no weapons of mass destruction have been found there.

Records of telephone calls from Air Force One and other White House records are among the documents subpoenaed by a federal grand jury. The panel is looking into the leak of an undercover CIA employee's name. The investigation began in January. It's a federal crime to knowingly release the name of an undercover agent.

Reports from Australia say at least three people have lost their lives in violent weather. Cyclone force winds and torrential rains blast the country's east coast earlier today, uprooting trees and flooding roads and highways. Tens of hundreds of people were left without power.

And, when we moved to the election, I don't think it's any secret to anybody that the economy is one of the big hot issues of this election, perhaps the biggest. The nation created fewer jobs last month than economists predicted. Financial news correspondent Kathleen Hays has the numbers and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The latest news on the labor market couldn't be much worse for President Bush or much better for his chief democratic rival, John Kerry. The U.S. economy created only 21,000 new jobs in February, for a total of just 364,000 in the past six months. The White House said Friday, more jobs are coming and defended the president's policies.

GREGORY MANKIW, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF ECONOMIC ADVISER: I know there's some people who think that raising taxes on the American people would be the right thing for the economy, we couldn't disagree anymore. Open up any economy text book and you see raising taxes puts a down force in the economy, it's contractionary. That's not what we need to do to create jobs.

HAYS: John Kerry reminded a crowd in New Orleans that the White House has predicted the economy creating more than 200,000 jobs a month this year.

KERRY: He thought that he could stand up in front of that sign that says "mission accomplished" and he thought none of you would notice what's really happening in America, but we do -- 21,000 jobs in one month, another broken promise.

HAYS: Outsourcing of U.S. jobs to cheap markets in Asia has been demonized the reason why labor markets remain so weak. But, economists say there's a bigger issue. American workers are so efficient, so used to working long hours in order to keep their jobs that companies can get by without hiring more people.

ANTHONY CHAN, ECONOMIST, BANK ONE: The economy is growing, but obviously not growing fast enough to keep up with the towering growth that we're seeing in productivity and that's why we're not creating jobs yet.

The unemployment rate was unchanged at 5.6 percent, last month, but a look at the details suggest that the news might not be quite as good as it looks. The jobless rate was unchanged because thousands of people left the labor force. That's often a sign that people have just gotten discouraged and stopped looking for work.

Kathleen Hays, CNN News, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: There were more than 8 million people unemployed last month and most were without a job for an average of just over 20 weeks, which is a slight increase. Many have already run out of unemployment benefits.

Steven Craig is an unemployed computer programmer from Westchester, Pennsylvania and his benefits will expire soon. John Challenger is CEO of Challenger Gray and Christmas, a Chicago-based workplace trends firm.

We spend millions of dollars and sometimes get millions of headaches. We're talking about dealing with contractors for home improvements and construction, which is something we'll talk about in a little while.

But let me talk to you Steve, about your experience as somebody who is unemployed. It is getting pretty desperate, isn't it?

STEVEN CRAIG, UNEMPLOYED COMPUTER PROGRAMMER: Yes, it is. In little under three weeks, the only income we're going to have is Social Security disability income my wife gets. And that's a pretty scary prospect when the mortgage bill is going to come in.

FRANKEN: Well, we hear the numbers, the statistics, we hear all this talk about an economy that's been recovering. But your life is in the shambles, isn't it?

CRAIG: It's not in a shambles yet, but it's certainly headed down that slippery slope. My personal experience is I've been unemployed for just about nine months, and I have had one face-to-face interview and one telephone interview.

FRANKEN: What about the possibility of retraining for something?

CRAIG: Retraining is a possibility. One retraining possibility I looked into would have put me $20,000 in debt. And would have put me at the entry-level position for that particular discipline. And that wasn't...

FRANKEN: Well, let me...

CRAIG: That wasn't...

FRANKEN: Go ahead.

CRAIG: That wasn't going to pay my bills.

FRANKEN: John Challenger, the fact is that if there's an economic recovery or if there's not, there has not really been a movement on jobs. Certainly not in a positive direction. The bugaboo seems to be productivity, right?

JOHN CHALLENGER, CEO, CHALLENGER, GRAY & CHRISTMAS: It is productivity. That has been rising at record rates over the last few years. And that's causing many businesses to hold back on the job creation that normally, this far into an economic expansion, should have been really booming by now.

FRANKEN: Well, productivity, in effect, means companies make more products without as many workers, right?

CHALLENGER: It does seem, in some ways, this is a battle between the shareholders, who are demanding and getting stronger every day, more profitability from companies and higher share prices, and workers who want those gains to come back in the form of wages or new jobs.

FRANKEN: But isn't that a slippery slope in the United States? If the workers continue to be unemployed, eventually will the economy collapse without their money being put into it?

CHALLENGER: It's certainly true. One of the key elements that fueled the long expansion of the 1990s was that 200,000 jobs were created on average every month through that expansion. And that meant new money, new consumer spending coming into the market, month after month as people found the jobs.

FRANKEN: Well, Steve, you hear about the productivity concerns, you hear about outsourcing. Your situation is deteriorating. Are you angry? How does this make you feel?

CRAIG: I'm not angry but I'm disappointed in the lack of company loyalty. People are more loyal to their companies than the companies are to them. At least that's been evidenced in the work that I've been doing over the past 15 years. And -- but because people are discouraged about what they see going on, they're working their tails off and apparently increasing the productivity that we were just hearing about. Angry? I'm not angry. I'm just wondering when the door's going to open for me again.

FRANKEN: And if it doesn't?

CRAIG: If it doesn't, I'll be -- I've already looked into the possibility of doing short order cooking. I've looked into the possibility of doing -- becoming a car salesman. A career change, as opposed to a new job as a programmer, is probably going to be my option at least for the short term.

FRANKEN: The personal story and the expert story about an economic recovery that is not really being felt in the lives of many people, whose lives have been disrupted by the economic turbulence.

We'll continue with more on this story. Of course, it's going to become one of the major stories, major stories of this election campaign.

Thank you very much.

CHALLENGER: Thank you.

FRANKEN: And we spent millions of dollars and sometimes get millions of headaches. We're talking about dealing with contractors for home improvements and construction. But today, at 4:30 today on CNN's "DOLLAR SIGNS," we'll have expert advice to help you avoid contractor nightmares. And we want your questions and comments. E- mail address is dollarsigns@cnn.com. And we'll also take your phone calls starting at 4:30 in the East. The toll free number is 1-800- 807-2620.

The remarkable rise and the precipitous fall of Howard Dean's presidential bid.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE TRIPPI, FMR. MANAGER, DEAN CAMPAIGN: It's the one thing about having a nice smile on your face. You did it. Something like that.

HOWARD DEAN (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Don't...

TRIPPI: Yes, yes, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Behind the scenes of the campaign in the heat of a battle. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: Though he's virtually disappeared from public view since his campaign sputtered to a closed, Howard Dean's true believers are pressing on with his cause. Tomorrow night, "CNN PRESENTS" shows you life inside the Dean campaign as it began to collapse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRIPPI: "It's the People, Stupid," is what I would ti -- no, "It's the People, Stupid." It is the subject line. Do not change the subject line. I just said it. "It's the People, Stupid."

DEAN: Nineteen ninety-two, Bill Clinton said, "It's the economy stupid." This time, it's the people, stupid. Washington's going to change and we're going to change it. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

(CHEERING)

TRIPPI: Committed news.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? Committed news?

TRIPPI: Yes. He said Clinton said in...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People to the people too?

TRIPPI: Yes. I mean, you know, people don't go with that; they're out of their minds. That's the whole -- that's what's the campaign is about. "It's the people, stupid." Has anybody used it? He's been saying it in the last two stops. That's the message. Don't we deserve to at least get our message out?

Here's the attack. What is your response? Here's the attack. What's your response? Here's the attack. What is your response? And when you get through all that, you have no message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seems like the other candidates are closing in.

TRIPPI: Well we'll see on Monday. We're -- we don't see that. We're going to win.

How's the "Blog" handling all this? You know, the polls say it's a dead heat. All that kind of stuff, Howard; they reacting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some are doing the sky is falling. Some people are saying it's not about the sky is falling. You've got to be positive. The people are going to win. There's definitely some of the sort of freaking out attitude.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The real story is John Kerry. He and his 25- point night last night.

TRIPPI: Kerry, 25; us 19; Gephardt, 19. You know what I think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?

TRIPPI: If we get into a back and forth with Gephardt, who benefits from that? Not either one of us. Not this late.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Edwards.

TRIPPI: Kerry or Edwards.

I know. Can you get me the...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to get poll right...

TRIPPI: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bye.

FELIX SCHEIN, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: That's too many glitches in the stage of the game now. What? Down to five days before the Iowa caucus. And the campaign seems to be lacking in structure.

TRIPPI: Does anybody know why headquarters isn't answering the phone calls?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. But neither is the hotline. The hotline is not answering, either.

SCHEIN: There's not a good understanding of how to deal with the press.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Confirm?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Confirm it? Where is she going to be?

SCHEIN: The governor himself hasn't been on lately. He's been tinkering with the mess, been tinkering with his style.

DEAN: Who wants chocolate?

TRIPPI: Next time when you pick them up, turn to the cameras and pick them up.

DEAN: But there are the other cameras.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's all about (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

TRIPPI: That's right. Thank you very much. You're wonderful. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys have a nice day.

TRIPPI: Thank you so much. Vote for Dean.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Dean, the other day, complained that Joe Trippi was getting more press than Governor Dean was getting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're really real.

TRIPPI: How are you doing?

SCHEIN: Joe Trippi may even be bigger than Governor Dean in some circles.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey! Hey!

TRIPPI: Go out and vote if you can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: "You're really real."

(LAUGHTER)

FRANKEN: Here now the producer of "True Believers," Kate Albright-HANNA. One got the impression of just total chaos with one professional in the group, Joe Trippi who got overwhelmed.

KATE ALBRIGHT-HANNA, PRODUCER "TRUE BELIEVERS": Yes. I was spending about 15 to 20 hours a day with him. So, you know, I was feeling everything they were feeling, in terms of how tired they were. How exhausted and how chaotic the whole situation was.

FRANKEN: From your experience inside the campaign, there were a lot outsiders, people who were proud to be outsiders, but people who as a result lacked any sort of experience dealing with what is really the brutal game of a campaign. Is -- is that what did him in?

ALBRIGHT-HANNA: Well, Joe Trippi is somebody who is a veteran of several presidential campaigns. He left after '88, disillusioned and felt like he needed to take a break. And that's when he went to Silicon Valley and came back, because he was inspired by Dean's message. But there were a lot of people on the campaign who never worked in politics before.

And I think that's why we were interested in doing this documentary about the Dean campaign, because there were a little more earnest and they came from theater backgrounds and some of them never even voted before.

FRANKEN: How were you able to get such access?

ALBRIGHT-HANNA: Well, part of Joe Trippi's philosophy about the campaign was just leaving it open to people, and giving people more of a closer connection, I guess, to a presidential campaign than they ever had before. and that's why, you know, he was so interested in the internet and the blog and raising money that way. But it was that personal connection. I think he extended that philosophy to me, in terms of giving me access to the campaign.

FRANKEN: But there was a perception from the outside, those of us who covered it, of almost nervous anger in the campaign. Is that what you saw inside?

ALBRIGHT-HANNA: I think the rise was so fast and the fall was so fast that there was a lot of disillusionment and bitterness towards the end among a lot of the people who had felt so hopeful early on.

FRANKEN: With a just a second or so to go, did anybody know what hit them when the famous scream happened?

ALBRIGHT-HANNA: No. Actually, I was on the press plane going from Iowa to New Hampshire, and none of the reporters had even picked up on it when it happened. So, when it became such a huge deal and was played over and over in the media, I think it took everybody by complete surprise. And it was hard to recover from that.

FRANKEN: "True Believers, Life Inside the Dean Campaign," airs at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time here on CNN.

And now, let's move to the other side of the fence, and that would be the Republican side. Near the Bush ranch in Texas, White House correspondent Dana Bash has been listening to the meeting this hour between President Bush and Mexican President Fox.

Dana, what's the latest from the deep in the heart of Texas?

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bob, the two men just finished off a conversation with reporters at President Bush's ranch, not too far from here. And they certainly talked about a host of issues regarding Mexican-U.S. relations. But the president did speak out for the first time about the controversy surrounding the ads that he has been running, that have images of September 11. And he was quite defiant.

He said he's going to continue to talk about the affects of September 11. And the fact that the administration, he believes, handled that day very well. Talk about the war on terrorism. and he says he looks forward to the debate. We don't have the video back yet, but here's some of what he said.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I will continue to mourn the loss of life on that day. But I'll never forget the lessons, the terrorists declared war on us on that day. And I will continue to pursue this war. I have an obligation to those who died. I have an obligation to those who were heroic in their attempts to rescue. And I won't forget that obligation.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BASH: Now, Bob, with regard to U.S.-Mexican relations President Fox suggested that in the meeting with President Bush, at his ranch this morning, the two men decided that the U.S. was going to back off a policy that would have required Mexican workers, essentially, who are coming in on a regular basis to the United States. They were going to be photographed and fingerprinted, just like many people coming into the United States from around the world, are required to these days.

The President Fox said that President Bush essentially decided to back off that. That perhaps those people who are coming in on a temporary basis wouldn't have to go through that. President Bush didn't acknowledge that, but U.S. officials aren't denying it for sure. This was something that administration officials have been suggesting that the president was going to do in order to sort of warm relations between the two countries.

Now, one other issue is, of course, the immigration plan that President Bush proposed back in January, to give illegal immigrants temporary status. Both men talked about the merits of the proposal. But President Bush conceded that he doesn't know how Congress will act this year, particularly because it's an election year -- Bob.

FRANKEN: And speaking of election year, Dana, let's go back to the first ads. These are the Bush campaign's real, first ads after the president has gotten hammered in all the Democratic primaries. And those ads have revved up a lot of criticism from families of victims of 9/11. What is the response of the White House and the campaign staff, Bush campaign staff to that criticism?

BASH: Well, it was really interesting to hear the president himself today, because certainly his aides, over the past week, have been quite defiant in saying that they're not going to pull the ads. That they have every right to talk about September 11, because as they put it, it's sort of part of the fabric of the country, and it is every bit as part of President Bush's record as anything else. Really the most defining moment of the president's tenure in office. Today, we heard from the president himself quite, quite defiant saying that he is going to talk about September 11. And it's important to talk about it, important for the country.

FRANKEN: And there's a real election dance, Dana Bash. Thank you very much.

Real election dance not only will each side taking steps, but each side will be criticizing the other's steps.

Now, we're going to move on to something I suppose it's related. The good, the bad and the downright ugly; we're talking about vacation spots. Where you might and might not want to book your next get away.

And the week in pictures: from the still violent war in Iraq to a long awaited homecoming.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: The virtually, unspoiled fjords of Norway stand at the top of a new ranking of world travel destination. And that fact tells a tale. On arriving at their destination, many of today's travelers are often dismayed to discover that once great places fallen victim to overdevelopment, cultural erosion and mass tourism. An article in the March issue of "National Geographic Traveler" puts things in per suspect. Hundreds of travel experts ranked 115 of the world's best- known places to see how well they're coping in the 21-century.

Keith Bellows is the magazine's editor-in-chief. He joins us here today.

And you talked about Norway, Scotland as two places you really should go.

KEITH BELLOWS, EDITOR, "NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC TRAVELER": Well, Norway ranked No. 1. Probably not surprising. I mean this is a place that hasn't been particularly intruded by tourists. It is very pristine. We obviously ranked this on aesthetics. We also ranked it on how well the country managed its tourism infrastructure. Not a lot of infrastructure there. Great place to see if you're going by cruise.

Scottish Highlands, kind of one of the overlooked destinations. This is a place that has got it all. It's got the, you know, the whiskey trail. The beautiful highlands. It's got a fairly minimal tourism footprint. So that's why it ranked pretty highly.

FRANKEN: OK. We're talking about the good places. It's obvious what your standard really is and that is "unspoiled," the key word.

BELLOWS: Unspoiled is part of it. But also it is, one has to invest in people who live there in the actual place they live in. In other words, they want people to come there, have a great time and feel good about it. And also, benefit from it. So if they're feeling like you're coming into their home, and it's going well, they're going to love it. They're going to make you feel more welcome.

FRANKEN: OK. Let's go to the ones that ranked at the opposite end of the scale.

BELLOWS: The opposite end of the scale. Well, Casa del Sol, I hate to say it, dead last. If you like concrete, you know, high- rises, beaches littered with people, I mean literally, littered with people, that's a great place to go. But most people don't want that. This is an area that probably didn't get to manage its tourism infrastructure because it started to building for tourists in the 1960s, when we really didn't understand concept of growth. And so, we have a situation where this is completely inundated with tourists.

FRANKEN: So, what you have is to go a long distance for something you could travel a shorter distance?

BELLOWS: You absolutely can. And one of the issues is, of course, that Casa del Sol was basically the Ocean City for people who are in Britain and France. So it's very close place, where lots and lots of people there could go and have a fairly inexpensive vacation.

FRANKEN: But if we want to go to a place trash place, we can go to a place much closer, can't we?

BELLOWS: Oh! We've got tons of them.

(LAUGHTER)

BELLOWS: And I'm not going to name them.

FRANKEN: Oh, no. But you named one.

BELLOWS: No, not necessarily, because I think that everybody's sort of trash place is somebody else's delightful place. I mean lots of people.

FRANKEN: Well, you name Negril. You named Negril.

BELLOWS: Negril. Negril -- when I first went to Negril, seven miles of white sand beach. Nothing on it. Now you have got lots of hotels on it. And again, you can say people love that. I don't personally. I want to have the white sand beach.

FRANKEN: But when you went to Negril...

BELLOWS: Yes.

FRANKEN: ... it was reputed to be pretty much a place where you did drugs or you went to get drugs. That was what it was for. And over the years, it became upscale and commercial.

BELLOWS: I think that is very true. I'm not sure that was the only reason. I think it was more -- it was sort of seen as a hippie retreat; but it was also seen as a place that was a true idyllic retreat, a place where you literally could get away from everything. Now, you have got so many hotels there that, you know, if you look at Jamaica, you're looking for -- you now are going from the north coast to the south coast. You're going to try to find another -- the next great place.

FRANKEN: OK. Give us the place that's somewhere in between. That's still manageable, but has enough stuff for us people who really sort of like a trashy vacation.

BELLOWS: Well, I won't speak to the trashy vacation. I'll tell you some great places. Montreal is a great place. The Galapagos is a great place. The Galapagos fell right in the middle of that zone. It is a place that has everything you would want to see in an eclectic vacation and it's well protected.

FRANKEN: Montreal, of course, is habitable about half the year.

BELLOWS: Ah. Now, now.

(LAUGHTER)

FRANKEN: It's mighty cold there.

Anyway, thank you very, very much. A little bit of vacation talk. Good thing as we start to thinking about that as summer comes on.

Now we have to return to some serious news in Venezuela, where tension is building. Opponents of President Hugo Chavez face a wall of resistance.

And we'll go to some of our pictures of the week. That's ahead on CNN SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: A busy week in the news, as always; and many memorable images you may have missed. Here are some views of the news. (BEGIN PHOTO CLIPS)

FRANKEN: A major eruption on the Caribbean island of Montserrat. The Soufriere Hills Volcano rumbled back to life. So far, no injuries. The volcano blew it's top in 1997, killing 19 islanders. An eruption of violence in Venezuela over the leadership of President Hugo Chavez. Days of protests have National Guard troops battling civilians. Many are demanding new presidential elections and they'll continue with their rallies this weekend.

In Haiti, looting, violence and murder go on, as President Jean- Bertrand Aristide flees his country. Hundreds of U.S. Marines prepare for duty on the island, as part of an international peacekeeping force. U.S. soldiers facing tough times in Iraq at Camp Banzai, after a crowd turned against medics treating civilians wounded from a nearby bombing. The yellow smoke is from a smoke grenade protesters threw back at soldiers.

Even a late-night arrival doesn't stop a big welcome home for soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas, after duty in "Operation Iraqi Freedom." And In Nevada, a girl welcomes her father home from serving in Qatar.

Spring is officially two weeks away but that may seem like an eternity in the Midwest from Minnesota to Nebraska. A pair of snowstorms has left residents digging out from under more than a foot of snow.

And that is the "Week in Pictures."

(END PHOTO CLIPS)

FRANKEN: And there's much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. In a few moments, "IN THE MONEY."

At 2:00 Eastern, CNN LIVE SATURDAY, in depth on the growing scandal in major league baseball, involving steroids and the impact on America's past time.

At 3:00, "NEXT@CNN" today on the possibility that Mars was once awash in water.

But first, Jack Cafferty with a preview of "IN THE MONEY."

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Haitian Splinter Group Threatens U.S. Marines; Is Martha Inc. Doomed?>


Aired March 6, 2004 - 12:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's 12:00 noon in New York; 11:00 a.m. in Crawford, Texas and I'm Bob Franken in Washington. This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Up ahead, the latest on President Bush's summit with Mexico's president, Vicente Fox.

Also, the day after the big verdict: Indepth coverage of the impact on Martha Stewart's media empire.

Later, growing resentment in Haiti over U.S. Marines and the threat of attacks on U.S. Troops.

But first, the headlines. A U.S. State Department warning for Americans in Venezuela. The potential for violence is high. The country's been the scene of rioting over the political future of Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez. Hundreds of people are in the streets today with a larger march planned tomorrow.

Violence at a crossing point between Israel and Gaza has left several Palestinians dead and nine people injured. Officials say one Palestinian attacker fired on Israeli soldier who is fired back and killed them. A second attacker blew himself up. There's confusion how Palestinian guards died. The violence follows militant's promises of revenge for recent Israeli air strikes.

Funeral services are being held today in Ohio for the outspoken woman that once owned the Cincinnati Reds baseball team. He was suspended from baseball for favorable comments about Hitler and criticism of minorities. Marge Schott was 75.

Attorney general John Ashcroft is hospitalized at this hour and likely to stay there through the weekend. He's suffering a serious case of gallstone pancreatitis. Ashcroft is being treated at the intensive care unit of George Washington University Hospital in Washington.

And right now, in Texas, and Mexican president Fox, as we mentioned a moment ago, are getting down to serious talks on immigration and border security. Mr. Fox wants new fingerprinting rules eased on Mexicans entering the U.S. The leaders are meeting at the Bush ranch near Crawford. The White House says the event not available to us live, however we do plan to bring you a live report later in the hour. Earlier, the president's radio address focused on Iraq and the difficulties there making the transition to democracy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Fighting alongside the people of Iraq, we will defeat the terrorists that seek to plunge Iraq into chaos and violence and we will stand with the people of Iraq for as long as necessary to build a stable, peaceful, and successful democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: As for John Kerry, there's no rest for his campaign this weekend which traveled to the president's backyard in Houston and Kerry gave today's democratic radio address trying to move a couple of steps ahead of the president on national security and defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today, our security is being weakened, our military is being overextended, our reserves overstrained, and our allies driven away. And on Thusday, we learned air marshals are being cut. I believe keeping our military strong and keeping our troops as safe as they can be, should be our highest priority. That's why I believe we need to relieve the reserves by temporarily expanding the size of the active duty forces by 40,000 troops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Kerry's also criticizing the president for millions of jobs lost.

From politics to legal matters, after the guilty verdict, Martha Stewart said she remains upbeat. Now, she's scheduled to be sentenced in three months, but still the queen of homemaking predicts that her appeal will be successful.

Stewart was convicted yesterday of conspiracy, obstruction, and making false statements. And while the verdict could carry a 20-year sentence, legal observers say it's highly likely that she would serve only a fraction of that time.

CNN financial correspondent Allen Chernoff has been following the trial in New York.

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Bob, there are probably a million places Martha Stewart would rather be, but on Monday morning, she's going to have to come right back here to, lower Manhattan to the court complex. Judge Miriam Cedarbaum ordered Stewart to appear at the probation office where she'll get her probation guidelines until her sentencing date of June 17.

Now, as you know, yesterday, the jury did find Martha Stewart guilty on all four criminal counts, concluding that Stewart and her stockbroker, Peter Bacanovic, had lied about the true reason that Martha Stewart sold her ImClone shares. In court, Judge Miriam Cedarbaum read the verdict, "guilty" four times. Martha Stewart, herself, showed very little emotion. The big emotion came from the lead prosecutor, Karen Seymour who is fighting back tears.

Now, one juror after the verdict said that some of the most critical evidence came from Martha Stewart's personal assistant Anne Armstrong who, herself, took the message from Peter Bacanovic saying that ImClone would begin trading downward.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAPPELL HARTRIDGE, JUROR: That was very strong because that was the -- Martha's way of trying to cover this up about the message Peter left. That was very strong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: Armstrong had testified that Stewart sat down at her assistant's computer and changed the message -- the message that Bacanovic had left on the phone log. Now, Stewart's attorneys and Bacanovic's attorneys say they intend to appeal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD STRASSBERG, BACANOVIC'S ATTORNEY: It's been a horrible ordeal for Peter, but he is going to make it through, and we will ultimately be vindicated in the end.

ROBERT MORVILLO, STEWART'S ATTORNEY: It was a difficult process for all of us. Like Rich Strassberg, we are disappointed at the outcome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: Martha Stewart has more legal problems, as well. The Securities and Exchange Commission has a civil insider trading suit against Martha Stewart. Remember, the federal prosecutors from the Justice Department did not charge Martha Stewart with criminal insider trading, but the SEC has charged her with insider trading and now that this case is over, the SEC intends to bring its case -- Bob.

FRANKEN: Alan Chernoff in New York.

Thank you, Allan.

Stewart's business empire was once worth a billion dollars, but it's lower since her legal troubles began and the big question now is: Will she and her company be able to bounce back?

Here's CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Martha in her better days, cooking things up in the kitchen and marketing domestic perfection in a way no one has done before. The question we asked superstar ad executives: Can she did do it with a conviction?

RON BERGER, CEO, EURO RSCG, MVBMS PARTNERS: I think it's going to be a very difficult and very long road -- you know, for her to be able to ever come back to what -- you know, what she stood -- because again, she stood for something that this charge drives right at the heart of.

CARROLL: Ad exec, Richard Kirshenbaum disagrees saying a reason some like dislike Stewart is now gone.

KIRSHENBAUM, KIRSHENBAUM BOND, AND PARTNERS: I think in a certain sense, now Martha is the underdog. And I think that women don't perceive her as being as perfect as she was in the past and I actually think that there'll be a groundswell of emotion, a movement towards embracing Martha and her brand.

CARROLL: And what a brand, the Stewart name is on everything from bed sheets to gardening tools.

MARTHA STEWART, "MARTHA STEWART LIVING": This is an amazing hand tool.

CARROLL: Stewart's company says we are deeply saddened by the news of Martha Stewart's conviction. "We're confident that our assets are more than sufficient to continue MSO's development as a leading "how to" brand building company."

But how can you separate the name from the brand? One industry leader says keeping the name and the face might be a good thing.

JAMS TENNY, LEVY TENNY: Now, this is crisis management at this point. I think honesty, stepping forward, having a point of view, and not receding and -- from the public view is one of the most important things she could do.

CARROLL: Many consumers we spoke to say they still believe in the brand and the woman behind it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just think that she's getting a scapegoated for something everyone's doing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd buy the products, but I wouldn't buy the stock.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll still continue to support her and her products but -- you know, I am kind of like cool on her character. I don't think she's the best person.

CARROLL: The board of directors from Martha Stewart Living Omni Media will meet very soon to discuss the implications of the verdict and to take actions as appropriate.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And some key questions come to mind on this day after Martha Stewart's conviction. Will she have to go to prison while the case is under appeal and if so, what kind of facility could she end up in? So, let's speak now to former defense attorney Rusty Hardin about all of these things.

First of all, Rusty, we keep hearing, "But, she probably will not serve all that time," the time being the twenty years or so that would be possible, that's obvious, they're the sentencing guidelines. Maybe you could explain that a little e bit more.

RUSTY HARDIN, FRM. DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yeah. The four counts that she was convicted of, each carry a maximum sentence of five years and a $250,000 fine. A judge could theoretically stack them on top of another, but there's no reason to believe that the judge would do that in this case, which means that her maximum exposure on each count is five years, if they are served concurrently, then you go to the sentencing guidelines to see, that the federal system is governed by, and that's why everybody is saying they expect her, probably be sentenced to between 10 and 16 months if the court follows the guidelines.

FRANKEN: Well, what are the considerations?

HARDIN: Well, she's a first offender, the nature of the offense, the -- it is almost just -- it is a chart. There's very little discretion a judge has in the federal system any longer, which is actually been a subject of some controversy among the federal courts for sometime. But, you have just simply different things taken into consideration, prior offense, the seriousness of the harm, the amount of money lost, etcetera, and I doubt there is a money issue here, so really, I think most people look at her as a first offender, that would be in the bottom range of the sentence, but the judge makes that decision.

FRANKEN: And as to where she would serve, it would seem, off the top of my head, that she would be going to a minimum security facility, somewhere.

HARDIN: I would suspect so. The bureau of prisons makes that decision, not really the judge. The meeting, for instance, that you have already had talked about that she has with the probation department, Monday morning, is a standard interview. They do a long interview with her about background and everything and they prepare a persistence report that is then confidentially submitted to the judge and the attorneys on both sides for the judge to decide where in that range she should be sentenced and then the bureau of prisons, after the sentence is pronounced, will decides where she goes.

FRANKEN: Rusty, with just a few seconds left, the question is, while she's appealing, will she serve? Probably so, correct?

HARDIN: Probably. Although the judge could leave her on bond while they appeal this, but most of the time they go on and begin their sentence while the appealing is pending.

FRANKEN: Rusty Hardin has had tremendous experience with this. Thank you for sharing some with us and we're going to have much more on Martha Stewart today on "People in the News" which looks at the highs and lows of her phenomenal career. "People in the News" airs today at 5:00 p.m. Eastern. The push to restore law and order to Haiti: U.S. Marines fan out from the capital. What should they expect to find in rebel strongholds?

Plus: It's the people's...

The crash and burn in Iowa: We'll take you behind the scenes of Howard Dean's ill-fated run for the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: To Haiti now, and efforts to restore law and order. This, a week after the president fled the island. The council of seven sages is assigned with the task of tapping a prime minister.

Meanwhile, supporters of Jean-Bertrand Aristide marched on the U.S. Embassy in Port-au-Prince. The crowd chanted "up with Aristide and down with Bush." They denounced U.S. peacekeepers as an occupation force. Some of those U.S. Marines have moved out of the Haitian capital trying to provide security in former rebel strongholds of the north and west. Canadian troops are expected the join the multinational effort, next week.

So here we have U.S. troops back in Haiti ten years after American forces went there to restore Aristide to power. So the question is: What will they face now? And for that, we turn to our security analyst Kelly McCann.

Kelly, first of all, there's a huge irony here, in fact there are several ironies about the United States being in there. The one we just described, that it was the United States that put Aristide in ten years ago. What will the Marines going to face this time?

KELLY MCCANN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: I'll add one more irony on to that. And you may remember this, Bob, that as soon as Aristide did land back in Haiti, he gad vehement anti-American speeches, so at leaves the war community scratching their head quite a bit, but the Marines face an unstable situation. Obviously, an important things during the first evolution in is the 1994 was military information support teams. Your direct experience, you'll harken back to, everything there runs on rumor, so the extent that you can keep the people informed factually about what's going on, you can avert a lot of terrible situations -- Bob.

FRANKEN: But, if there's one word to describe Haiti almost inherently, it is the workd "chaos."

MCCANN: There's no doubt about it. I mean, it's a very, very almost ungovernable place. The governments have always been fraught with some kind of thuggery, both back down to the tonton macu (PH), then the anti-Shays, the Samir underneath President Aristide. There's always been that level of uncontrolled henchmen that are out in the community that makes things difficult to gauge.

FRANKEN: Well, there's a man now, who is particularly important in Washington. A man by the name of Toussaint and you know him well, don't you?

MCCANN: Yes I do. He's very charismatic. Danny Toussaint has been involved with Mr. Aristide for sometime. Many of the people in country know him. He has a large following, a support base, but there are also a lot of people looking at him with interest in the United States.

FRANKEN: Well, the U.S. Marines, of course, are a military force, but this is a country that is, in effect, without a government, right now. Is it fair to expect that the Marines are going to take up the policing duties, the civil engineering duties? That type of thing, at least temporarily?

MCCANN: My discussions with Department of Defense officials this week led to three things. One, that this is a reengagement with the French. The second thing is that the French may use their Jean-Domari (PH) similar to the way they did in Surinam and the Central African Republic, to use them as the trainers, unlike the first iteration, where the U.S. provided a lot of international police monitor. And lastly, U.N. involvement, which I think will grow over some time.

Remember, Bob, that over $3.2 billion spent to correct the situation ten years ago, and here we go again.

FRANKEN: Ah, here we go again with no prospect that it's going to getting any better, I would think.

MCCANN: Absolutely.

FRANKEN: Thank you very much, Kelly.

And as we move along now, let's move along to a more pleasant subject than the dangers in Haiti, and that's lunchtime. If it is lunchtime where you are here's a thought:

You really will be loving it if you walk into McDonald's at the right time in weekend and we'll tell you why.

And, here's something you don't see every day unless of course you live in Hawaii. Hot off the presses, when CNN's Saturday returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: Over the next 24 hours, McDonald's customers across America are going to discover a whole new meaning to Happy Meal. You'll have no fat, no carbohydrates, no calories. In fact, as CNN's Jennifer Coggiola explains, it's nothing but green.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JENNIFER COGGIOLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): SMcDonald's is offering you a lot of cash for nothing. Here's the deal: Walk into the right participating McDonald's at the right time now through Sunday and if you're randomly selected, you'll walk away with a million bucks. You don't even have to buy a burger. So, why? Because they have to. Quote, "This give away is being offered pursuant to the stipulation of settlement."

The settlement is the result of a past contest in 2001 that was rigged by someone from outside the company who walked away with more than $13 million.

SUSAN KUBLAND, DIRECTOR, MCDONALD'S MARKETING: It's simply our way of showing our customers our confidence and our trust with them and making available to them prizes that they should have had.

BOB GOLDWIN, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, TECHNOMICS INC.: There's almost a begrudging element to it, as opposed to the way they normally do business.

COGGIOLA: Guidelines depict the winners, a restaurant in a time of day will randomly be chosen ahead of time, then a group of judges will position themselves in the restaurant. And identify a potential winner. Namely, the first customer who walks in or pulls up at the drive-thru.

And surely, McDonald's is loving it these days. On Friday, the company reported worldwide sales were up for the tenth consecutive month. Success attributed to the new menu items like, all-white chicken nuggets and their new ad campaigns.

In another move that could attract a more health conscious clientele, McDonalds is eliminating super sized french-fries and soft drinks from their menu by the end of 2004. Menu changes that focus on an issue spotlighted in a new documentary film, "Super Size Me," that follows a man who eats McDonald's every meal, everyday and packs on 25 pounds.

(on camera): Now, the company has denied that the film had anything to do with the super size deletions on the menu, that in fact, it was just to improve operations and to reduce overhead.

Jennifer Coggiola, CNN Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And more news across America. A school bus surveillance tape captures an act of heroism in West Virginia. When a 17-year-old choked on a sandwich, a classmate came to the rescue with some Heimlich know-how. Now Craig Hicks is called the "Heimlich Hero." His friend, Nathan Pybus is in hot water for having food on the bus.

Motorists in Washington State are asked to take care through mountain passes. More than a foot of snow fell in parts of the Cascades. Forecasters were also calling for snow in the Olympics and in the eastern part of the state.

Now to switch, it's hot. Lava that's in focus atop Hawaii's Kilauea volcano -- Kilauea volcano, and it's an eruption that continues a 20-year tradition. Lava has now been flowing continuously from Fishers on Hawaii's big island since January 1983. And now, have a two-step agenda in the "Lone Star" state. President Bush and Mexico's leader focuses on immigration and border security. We'll be live with the story.

Plus, hanging on for dear life. A risky operation -- risky rescue operation in the outback.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're streaming live from here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Howard Dean as you've probably not seen him before. His rise and fall from the inside out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: Headlines at the half hour. The former chief United Nations weapons inspector takes a jab at President Bush and Britain's prime minister in a new book. Hans Blix says, both allied leaders were seduced by unproven intelligence reports in the lead-up to the war in Iraq. Nearly a year after the invasion no weapons of mass destruction have been found there.

Records of telephone calls from Air Force One and other White House records are among the documents subpoenaed by a federal grand jury. The panel is looking into the leak of an undercover CIA employee's name. The investigation began in January. It's a federal crime to knowingly release the name of an undercover agent.

Reports from Australia say at least three people have lost their lives in violent weather. Cyclone force winds and torrential rains blast the country's east coast earlier today, uprooting trees and flooding roads and highways. Tens of hundreds of people were left without power.

And, when we moved to the election, I don't think it's any secret to anybody that the economy is one of the big hot issues of this election, perhaps the biggest. The nation created fewer jobs last month than economists predicted. Financial news correspondent Kathleen Hays has the numbers and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The latest news on the labor market couldn't be much worse for President Bush or much better for his chief democratic rival, John Kerry. The U.S. economy created only 21,000 new jobs in February, for a total of just 364,000 in the past six months. The White House said Friday, more jobs are coming and defended the president's policies.

GREGORY MANKIW, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF ECONOMIC ADVISER: I know there's some people who think that raising taxes on the American people would be the right thing for the economy, we couldn't disagree anymore. Open up any economy text book and you see raising taxes puts a down force in the economy, it's contractionary. That's not what we need to do to create jobs.

HAYS: John Kerry reminded a crowd in New Orleans that the White House has predicted the economy creating more than 200,000 jobs a month this year.

KERRY: He thought that he could stand up in front of that sign that says "mission accomplished" and he thought none of you would notice what's really happening in America, but we do -- 21,000 jobs in one month, another broken promise.

HAYS: Outsourcing of U.S. jobs to cheap markets in Asia has been demonized the reason why labor markets remain so weak. But, economists say there's a bigger issue. American workers are so efficient, so used to working long hours in order to keep their jobs that companies can get by without hiring more people.

ANTHONY CHAN, ECONOMIST, BANK ONE: The economy is growing, but obviously not growing fast enough to keep up with the towering growth that we're seeing in productivity and that's why we're not creating jobs yet.

The unemployment rate was unchanged at 5.6 percent, last month, but a look at the details suggest that the news might not be quite as good as it looks. The jobless rate was unchanged because thousands of people left the labor force. That's often a sign that people have just gotten discouraged and stopped looking for work.

Kathleen Hays, CNN News, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: There were more than 8 million people unemployed last month and most were without a job for an average of just over 20 weeks, which is a slight increase. Many have already run out of unemployment benefits.

Steven Craig is an unemployed computer programmer from Westchester, Pennsylvania and his benefits will expire soon. John Challenger is CEO of Challenger Gray and Christmas, a Chicago-based workplace trends firm.

We spend millions of dollars and sometimes get millions of headaches. We're talking about dealing with contractors for home improvements and construction, which is something we'll talk about in a little while.

But let me talk to you Steve, about your experience as somebody who is unemployed. It is getting pretty desperate, isn't it?

STEVEN CRAIG, UNEMPLOYED COMPUTER PROGRAMMER: Yes, it is. In little under three weeks, the only income we're going to have is Social Security disability income my wife gets. And that's a pretty scary prospect when the mortgage bill is going to come in.

FRANKEN: Well, we hear the numbers, the statistics, we hear all this talk about an economy that's been recovering. But your life is in the shambles, isn't it?

CRAIG: It's not in a shambles yet, but it's certainly headed down that slippery slope. My personal experience is I've been unemployed for just about nine months, and I have had one face-to-face interview and one telephone interview.

FRANKEN: What about the possibility of retraining for something?

CRAIG: Retraining is a possibility. One retraining possibility I looked into would have put me $20,000 in debt. And would have put me at the entry-level position for that particular discipline. And that wasn't...

FRANKEN: Well, let me...

CRAIG: That wasn't...

FRANKEN: Go ahead.

CRAIG: That wasn't going to pay my bills.

FRANKEN: John Challenger, the fact is that if there's an economic recovery or if there's not, there has not really been a movement on jobs. Certainly not in a positive direction. The bugaboo seems to be productivity, right?

JOHN CHALLENGER, CEO, CHALLENGER, GRAY & CHRISTMAS: It is productivity. That has been rising at record rates over the last few years. And that's causing many businesses to hold back on the job creation that normally, this far into an economic expansion, should have been really booming by now.

FRANKEN: Well, productivity, in effect, means companies make more products without as many workers, right?

CHALLENGER: It does seem, in some ways, this is a battle between the shareholders, who are demanding and getting stronger every day, more profitability from companies and higher share prices, and workers who want those gains to come back in the form of wages or new jobs.

FRANKEN: But isn't that a slippery slope in the United States? If the workers continue to be unemployed, eventually will the economy collapse without their money being put into it?

CHALLENGER: It's certainly true. One of the key elements that fueled the long expansion of the 1990s was that 200,000 jobs were created on average every month through that expansion. And that meant new money, new consumer spending coming into the market, month after month as people found the jobs.

FRANKEN: Well, Steve, you hear about the productivity concerns, you hear about outsourcing. Your situation is deteriorating. Are you angry? How does this make you feel?

CRAIG: I'm not angry but I'm disappointed in the lack of company loyalty. People are more loyal to their companies than the companies are to them. At least that's been evidenced in the work that I've been doing over the past 15 years. And -- but because people are discouraged about what they see going on, they're working their tails off and apparently increasing the productivity that we were just hearing about. Angry? I'm not angry. I'm just wondering when the door's going to open for me again.

FRANKEN: And if it doesn't?

CRAIG: If it doesn't, I'll be -- I've already looked into the possibility of doing short order cooking. I've looked into the possibility of doing -- becoming a car salesman. A career change, as opposed to a new job as a programmer, is probably going to be my option at least for the short term.

FRANKEN: The personal story and the expert story about an economic recovery that is not really being felt in the lives of many people, whose lives have been disrupted by the economic turbulence.

We'll continue with more on this story. Of course, it's going to become one of the major stories, major stories of this election campaign.

Thank you very much.

CHALLENGER: Thank you.

FRANKEN: And we spent millions of dollars and sometimes get millions of headaches. We're talking about dealing with contractors for home improvements and construction. But today, at 4:30 today on CNN's "DOLLAR SIGNS," we'll have expert advice to help you avoid contractor nightmares. And we want your questions and comments. E- mail address is dollarsigns@cnn.com. And we'll also take your phone calls starting at 4:30 in the East. The toll free number is 1-800- 807-2620.

The remarkable rise and the precipitous fall of Howard Dean's presidential bid.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE TRIPPI, FMR. MANAGER, DEAN CAMPAIGN: It's the one thing about having a nice smile on your face. You did it. Something like that.

HOWARD DEAN (D), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Don't...

TRIPPI: Yes, yes, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Behind the scenes of the campaign in the heat of a battle. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: Though he's virtually disappeared from public view since his campaign sputtered to a closed, Howard Dean's true believers are pressing on with his cause. Tomorrow night, "CNN PRESENTS" shows you life inside the Dean campaign as it began to collapse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRIPPI: "It's the People, Stupid," is what I would ti -- no, "It's the People, Stupid." It is the subject line. Do not change the subject line. I just said it. "It's the People, Stupid."

DEAN: Nineteen ninety-two, Bill Clinton said, "It's the economy stupid." This time, it's the people, stupid. Washington's going to change and we're going to change it. Thank you very much.

(APPLAUSE)

(CHEERING)

TRIPPI: Committed news.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What? Committed news?

TRIPPI: Yes. He said Clinton said in...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People to the people too?

TRIPPI: Yes. I mean, you know, people don't go with that; they're out of their minds. That's the whole -- that's what's the campaign is about. "It's the people, stupid." Has anybody used it? He's been saying it in the last two stops. That's the message. Don't we deserve to at least get our message out?

Here's the attack. What is your response? Here's the attack. What's your response? Here's the attack. What is your response? And when you get through all that, you have no message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seems like the other candidates are closing in.

TRIPPI: Well we'll see on Monday. We're -- we don't see that. We're going to win.

How's the "Blog" handling all this? You know, the polls say it's a dead heat. All that kind of stuff, Howard; they reacting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some are doing the sky is falling. Some people are saying it's not about the sky is falling. You've got to be positive. The people are going to win. There's definitely some of the sort of freaking out attitude.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The real story is John Kerry. He and his 25- point night last night.

TRIPPI: Kerry, 25; us 19; Gephardt, 19. You know what I think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?

TRIPPI: If we get into a back and forth with Gephardt, who benefits from that? Not either one of us. Not this late.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Edwards.

TRIPPI: Kerry or Edwards.

I know. Can you get me the...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to get poll right...

TRIPPI: Now!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bye.

FELIX SCHEIN, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: That's too many glitches in the stage of the game now. What? Down to five days before the Iowa caucus. And the campaign seems to be lacking in structure.

TRIPPI: Does anybody know why headquarters isn't answering the phone calls?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. But neither is the hotline. The hotline is not answering, either.

SCHEIN: There's not a good understanding of how to deal with the press.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Confirm?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Confirm it? Where is she going to be?

SCHEIN: The governor himself hasn't been on lately. He's been tinkering with the mess, been tinkering with his style.

DEAN: Who wants chocolate?

TRIPPI: Next time when you pick them up, turn to the cameras and pick them up.

DEAN: But there are the other cameras.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's all about (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

TRIPPI: That's right. Thank you very much. You're wonderful. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys have a nice day.

TRIPPI: Thank you so much. Vote for Dean.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Dean, the other day, complained that Joe Trippi was getting more press than Governor Dean was getting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're really real.

TRIPPI: How are you doing?

SCHEIN: Joe Trippi may even be bigger than Governor Dean in some circles.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey! Hey!

TRIPPI: Go out and vote if you can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: "You're really real."

(LAUGHTER)

FRANKEN: Here now the producer of "True Believers," Kate Albright-HANNA. One got the impression of just total chaos with one professional in the group, Joe Trippi who got overwhelmed.

KATE ALBRIGHT-HANNA, PRODUCER "TRUE BELIEVERS": Yes. I was spending about 15 to 20 hours a day with him. So, you know, I was feeling everything they were feeling, in terms of how tired they were. How exhausted and how chaotic the whole situation was.

FRANKEN: From your experience inside the campaign, there were a lot outsiders, people who were proud to be outsiders, but people who as a result lacked any sort of experience dealing with what is really the brutal game of a campaign. Is -- is that what did him in?

ALBRIGHT-HANNA: Well, Joe Trippi is somebody who is a veteran of several presidential campaigns. He left after '88, disillusioned and felt like he needed to take a break. And that's when he went to Silicon Valley and came back, because he was inspired by Dean's message. But there were a lot of people on the campaign who never worked in politics before.

And I think that's why we were interested in doing this documentary about the Dean campaign, because there were a little more earnest and they came from theater backgrounds and some of them never even voted before.

FRANKEN: How were you able to get such access?

ALBRIGHT-HANNA: Well, part of Joe Trippi's philosophy about the campaign was just leaving it open to people, and giving people more of a closer connection, I guess, to a presidential campaign than they ever had before. and that's why, you know, he was so interested in the internet and the blog and raising money that way. But it was that personal connection. I think he extended that philosophy to me, in terms of giving me access to the campaign.

FRANKEN: But there was a perception from the outside, those of us who covered it, of almost nervous anger in the campaign. Is that what you saw inside?

ALBRIGHT-HANNA: I think the rise was so fast and the fall was so fast that there was a lot of disillusionment and bitterness towards the end among a lot of the people who had felt so hopeful early on.

FRANKEN: With a just a second or so to go, did anybody know what hit them when the famous scream happened?

ALBRIGHT-HANNA: No. Actually, I was on the press plane going from Iowa to New Hampshire, and none of the reporters had even picked up on it when it happened. So, when it became such a huge deal and was played over and over in the media, I think it took everybody by complete surprise. And it was hard to recover from that.

FRANKEN: "True Believers, Life Inside the Dean Campaign," airs at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time here on CNN.

And now, let's move to the other side of the fence, and that would be the Republican side. Near the Bush ranch in Texas, White House correspondent Dana Bash has been listening to the meeting this hour between President Bush and Mexican President Fox.

Dana, what's the latest from the deep in the heart of Texas?

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bob, the two men just finished off a conversation with reporters at President Bush's ranch, not too far from here. And they certainly talked about a host of issues regarding Mexican-U.S. relations. But the president did speak out for the first time about the controversy surrounding the ads that he has been running, that have images of September 11. And he was quite defiant.

He said he's going to continue to talk about the affects of September 11. And the fact that the administration, he believes, handled that day very well. Talk about the war on terrorism. and he says he looks forward to the debate. We don't have the video back yet, but here's some of what he said.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I will continue to mourn the loss of life on that day. But I'll never forget the lessons, the terrorists declared war on us on that day. And I will continue to pursue this war. I have an obligation to those who died. I have an obligation to those who were heroic in their attempts to rescue. And I won't forget that obligation.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BASH: Now, Bob, with regard to U.S.-Mexican relations President Fox suggested that in the meeting with President Bush, at his ranch this morning, the two men decided that the U.S. was going to back off a policy that would have required Mexican workers, essentially, who are coming in on a regular basis to the United States. They were going to be photographed and fingerprinted, just like many people coming into the United States from around the world, are required to these days.

The President Fox said that President Bush essentially decided to back off that. That perhaps those people who are coming in on a temporary basis wouldn't have to go through that. President Bush didn't acknowledge that, but U.S. officials aren't denying it for sure. This was something that administration officials have been suggesting that the president was going to do in order to sort of warm relations between the two countries.

Now, one other issue is, of course, the immigration plan that President Bush proposed back in January, to give illegal immigrants temporary status. Both men talked about the merits of the proposal. But President Bush conceded that he doesn't know how Congress will act this year, particularly because it's an election year -- Bob.

FRANKEN: And speaking of election year, Dana, let's go back to the first ads. These are the Bush campaign's real, first ads after the president has gotten hammered in all the Democratic primaries. And those ads have revved up a lot of criticism from families of victims of 9/11. What is the response of the White House and the campaign staff, Bush campaign staff to that criticism?

BASH: Well, it was really interesting to hear the president himself today, because certainly his aides, over the past week, have been quite defiant in saying that they're not going to pull the ads. That they have every right to talk about September 11, because as they put it, it's sort of part of the fabric of the country, and it is every bit as part of President Bush's record as anything else. Really the most defining moment of the president's tenure in office. Today, we heard from the president himself quite, quite defiant saying that he is going to talk about September 11. And it's important to talk about it, important for the country.

FRANKEN: And there's a real election dance, Dana Bash. Thank you very much.

Real election dance not only will each side taking steps, but each side will be criticizing the other's steps.

Now, we're going to move on to something I suppose it's related. The good, the bad and the downright ugly; we're talking about vacation spots. Where you might and might not want to book your next get away.

And the week in pictures: from the still violent war in Iraq to a long awaited homecoming.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: The virtually, unspoiled fjords of Norway stand at the top of a new ranking of world travel destination. And that fact tells a tale. On arriving at their destination, many of today's travelers are often dismayed to discover that once great places fallen victim to overdevelopment, cultural erosion and mass tourism. An article in the March issue of "National Geographic Traveler" puts things in per suspect. Hundreds of travel experts ranked 115 of the world's best- known places to see how well they're coping in the 21-century.

Keith Bellows is the magazine's editor-in-chief. He joins us here today.

And you talked about Norway, Scotland as two places you really should go.

KEITH BELLOWS, EDITOR, "NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC TRAVELER": Well, Norway ranked No. 1. Probably not surprising. I mean this is a place that hasn't been particularly intruded by tourists. It is very pristine. We obviously ranked this on aesthetics. We also ranked it on how well the country managed its tourism infrastructure. Not a lot of infrastructure there. Great place to see if you're going by cruise.

Scottish Highlands, kind of one of the overlooked destinations. This is a place that has got it all. It's got the, you know, the whiskey trail. The beautiful highlands. It's got a fairly minimal tourism footprint. So that's why it ranked pretty highly.

FRANKEN: OK. We're talking about the good places. It's obvious what your standard really is and that is "unspoiled," the key word.

BELLOWS: Unspoiled is part of it. But also it is, one has to invest in people who live there in the actual place they live in. In other words, they want people to come there, have a great time and feel good about it. And also, benefit from it. So if they're feeling like you're coming into their home, and it's going well, they're going to love it. They're going to make you feel more welcome.

FRANKEN: OK. Let's go to the ones that ranked at the opposite end of the scale.

BELLOWS: The opposite end of the scale. Well, Casa del Sol, I hate to say it, dead last. If you like concrete, you know, high- rises, beaches littered with people, I mean literally, littered with people, that's a great place to go. But most people don't want that. This is an area that probably didn't get to manage its tourism infrastructure because it started to building for tourists in the 1960s, when we really didn't understand concept of growth. And so, we have a situation where this is completely inundated with tourists.

FRANKEN: So, what you have is to go a long distance for something you could travel a shorter distance?

BELLOWS: You absolutely can. And one of the issues is, of course, that Casa del Sol was basically the Ocean City for people who are in Britain and France. So it's very close place, where lots and lots of people there could go and have a fairly inexpensive vacation.

FRANKEN: But if we want to go to a place trash place, we can go to a place much closer, can't we?

BELLOWS: Oh! We've got tons of them.

(LAUGHTER)

BELLOWS: And I'm not going to name them.

FRANKEN: Oh, no. But you named one.

BELLOWS: No, not necessarily, because I think that everybody's sort of trash place is somebody else's delightful place. I mean lots of people.

FRANKEN: Well, you name Negril. You named Negril.

BELLOWS: Negril. Negril -- when I first went to Negril, seven miles of white sand beach. Nothing on it. Now you have got lots of hotels on it. And again, you can say people love that. I don't personally. I want to have the white sand beach.

FRANKEN: But when you went to Negril...

BELLOWS: Yes.

FRANKEN: ... it was reputed to be pretty much a place where you did drugs or you went to get drugs. That was what it was for. And over the years, it became upscale and commercial.

BELLOWS: I think that is very true. I'm not sure that was the only reason. I think it was more -- it was sort of seen as a hippie retreat; but it was also seen as a place that was a true idyllic retreat, a place where you literally could get away from everything. Now, you have got so many hotels there that, you know, if you look at Jamaica, you're looking for -- you now are going from the north coast to the south coast. You're going to try to find another -- the next great place.

FRANKEN: OK. Give us the place that's somewhere in between. That's still manageable, but has enough stuff for us people who really sort of like a trashy vacation.

BELLOWS: Well, I won't speak to the trashy vacation. I'll tell you some great places. Montreal is a great place. The Galapagos is a great place. The Galapagos fell right in the middle of that zone. It is a place that has everything you would want to see in an eclectic vacation and it's well protected.

FRANKEN: Montreal, of course, is habitable about half the year.

BELLOWS: Ah. Now, now.

(LAUGHTER)

FRANKEN: It's mighty cold there.

Anyway, thank you very, very much. A little bit of vacation talk. Good thing as we start to thinking about that as summer comes on.

Now we have to return to some serious news in Venezuela, where tension is building. Opponents of President Hugo Chavez face a wall of resistance.

And we'll go to some of our pictures of the week. That's ahead on CNN SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: A busy week in the news, as always; and many memorable images you may have missed. Here are some views of the news. (BEGIN PHOTO CLIPS)

FRANKEN: A major eruption on the Caribbean island of Montserrat. The Soufriere Hills Volcano rumbled back to life. So far, no injuries. The volcano blew it's top in 1997, killing 19 islanders. An eruption of violence in Venezuela over the leadership of President Hugo Chavez. Days of protests have National Guard troops battling civilians. Many are demanding new presidential elections and they'll continue with their rallies this weekend.

In Haiti, looting, violence and murder go on, as President Jean- Bertrand Aristide flees his country. Hundreds of U.S. Marines prepare for duty on the island, as part of an international peacekeeping force. U.S. soldiers facing tough times in Iraq at Camp Banzai, after a crowd turned against medics treating civilians wounded from a nearby bombing. The yellow smoke is from a smoke grenade protesters threw back at soldiers.

Even a late-night arrival doesn't stop a big welcome home for soldiers at Fort Hood, Texas, after duty in "Operation Iraqi Freedom." And In Nevada, a girl welcomes her father home from serving in Qatar.

Spring is officially two weeks away but that may seem like an eternity in the Midwest from Minnesota to Nebraska. A pair of snowstorms has left residents digging out from under more than a foot of snow.

And that is the "Week in Pictures."

(END PHOTO CLIPS)

FRANKEN: And there's much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. In a few moments, "IN THE MONEY."

At 2:00 Eastern, CNN LIVE SATURDAY, in depth on the growing scandal in major league baseball, involving steroids and the impact on America's past time.

At 3:00, "NEXT@CNN" today on the possibility that Mars was once awash in water.

But first, Jack Cafferty with a preview of "IN THE MONEY."

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





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