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CNN Live Saturday
Basement Explosion Rocks Small Baptist Church In Pennsylvania; John Kerry Calls For Monthly Debates Starting This Spring; Concerns Over E-Voting Cause Som Harsh Criticism From Computer Science Industry
Aired March 13, 2004 - 18:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: At the half hour, here a look at what's happening right now. While thousands protest the investigation, officials today announced several arrests in connection with the Madrid train bombings. Three Morrocans and 2 Indians are being held. Investigators say a telephone calling card and a cell phone link the suspects to Thursday's attacks. The bombings killed 200 commuters and injured more than 1500 others.
Mourners at a funeral for stampede victims in northeastern Syria turned violent today. Hundreds of people started rioting, shouting anti-government slogans, and setting fires. Witnesses say police fired shots in the air to disperse the crowd.
And crews in Maryland continue searching for three passengers still missing after their water taxi capsized one week ago. Investigators say the pontoon boat flipped in Baltimore's Inner Harbor during a sudden storm. Two people pulled from the water died soon after the accident.
Well, today, workers are trying to lift the submerged roof of the water taxi. Investigators say its location will help narrow the search for the missing passengers.
A historic church in Pittsburgh is praying to rebuild after a devastating and deadly fire. Two firefighters were killed and more than two dozen others hurt in the blaze at Ebenezer Baptist Church.
Reporter Meghan Jones with affiliate WTAE is live from the scene with the latest there -- Meghan?
MEGHAN JONES, WTAE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Carol, I actually witnessed the collapse. I was standing about where I am right now whenever the bell tower came down. And if you can see behind me, it took with it the wooden gables and also a lot of the bricks from the side of the building.
Now whenever that loud crash occurred on the sidewalk, all you could hear were people running and screaming, trying to get to the injured firefighters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MEGHAN JONES, WTAE NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the moment the walls came down, it was immediately apparent that people had been hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of a sudden, the side of the building just came -- started coming down. We started yelling for the firefighters to get out the way and they started looking up and the bricks just fell down on them.
JONES: Paramedics and firefighters scrambled to help those injured, as more pieces came down. Paramedics carried injured firefighters away from the building, fearing more of the building would fall.
J.T. THOMAS, WITNESS: It was devastating and people reacting to it, because quite a few people were here on the premises, you know, watching it.
JONES: So many people, many of them church members, saw their church on fire, then witnessed the horrible crash. Then came news that two firefighters were missing inside the building, presumably buried under the rubble. Rescue crews asked parishioners for help in finding out how to get them out.
ROGER TRAVIS, CHURCH MEMBER: What it is, it's part of a vestibule entrance, where there is a stairwell that goes downstairs to the basement where we used to have Sunday school. In all probability, the steps are gone. So if the steps are gone, then they're going to have to lift them up out of there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JONES: Both of the firefighters were found on the basement floor in the vestibule area of the church. Now fire officials say at the time they were fighting the fire, they had no idea the bell tower was not stable. And, in fact, the fire is still burning. And they will have to work into the evening here to put that out.
Live in Pittsburgh, I'm Meghan Jones. Now back to you.
LIN: Thanks, Meghan.
We're turning to presidential politics next, hitting the airwaves. We're going to find out how the latest negative ads will affect the race for the White House.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: The campaign trail took Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry to Illinois today. He visited the site of some famous debates to suggest some of his own.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And so here in Quincy...
CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Kerry is directly challenging his Republican rival. KERRY: I am asking George Bush to agree to a series of monthly debates starting this spring, to talk about the real issues in our country.
LIN: The Massachusetts senator pitched the idea in Quincy, Illinois, where one of the debates between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas took place almost 150 years ago.
KERRY: This should be a campaign worthy of the great issues before us, a campaign that truly can give the election of America's president back to the people.
LIN: Kerry's trying to focus on the issues after a week of a lot of negative back and forth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New government spending...
LIN: At the same time, President Bush unleashed a multimillion dollar TV ad campaign, charging Kerry would raise taxes and questioning Kerry's record on defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he wanted to delay defending America until the United Nations approved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once again, George Bush is misleading America.
LIN: That forced John Kerry to respond with his own ads in key battleground states.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...wants to cut taxes for the middle class.
LIN: A Bush campaign official rejected the possibility that Bush would debate Kerry until after the Republican and Democratic conventions. The official response? The senator should "finish the debate with himself before he starts to explain his positions to the voters."
The Bush campaign accused Kerry of trying to change the subject after Republicans criticized the senator for calling them crooked and liars, while talking casually with Chicago workers.
The Kerry campaign believes that going head-to-head with Bush would highlight the senator's debating skills, which helped him win his tough 1996 re-election bid. Recalling the steamer Lincoln and Douglas took after the debate, Kerry joked he probably won't be sharing a train ride with President Bush anytime soon.
KERRY: Who knows? Maybe it's possible that when it's all over, George Bush and I will be able to sit down together at a Red Sox/Rangers game and shake hands as friends.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: We shall see. This year's presidential campaign seems to have started earlier than ever. President Bush and Senator Kerry have already exchanged jabs, as you just saw, but will the negative tone continue?
CNN White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After weeks of both sides swinging, President Bush's opponent seemingly offered an olive branch.
JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President Bush and I can do better. And America deserves better.
MALVEAUX: A call to drop the negative campaigning and a challenge to the president.
KERRY: I am asking George Bush to agree to a series of monthly debates, starting this spring, to talk about the real issues in our country.
MALVEAUX: While Mr. Bush has already committed to three debates, his campaign is still smarting from Senator Kerry's offhanded comment...
KERRY: These guys are the most crooked...
MALVEAUX: A Bush campaign spokesman said after calling Republicans crooks and liars, John Kerry is now calling for a civil debate on the issues. Senator Kerry should finish the debate with himself, before he starts trying to explain his positions to the voters.
Earlier in the day, in dueling radio addresses, the president and Democrats faced off over the economy. Mr. Bush said his critics' plan would kill jobs.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They want to increase federal taxes. Yet punishing families and small businesses is not a job creation strategy.
MALVEAUX: Senator Kerry has said he would not raise taxes, but only roll back the tax cut for America's most wealthy. Liberal icon Senator Ted Kennedy fired back.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Job creation in America is in the basement.
MALVEAUX: Some political observers say the early hostilities between the Bush/Kerry camps will make it harder to make nice later.
KEN RUDIN, POLITICAL ANALYST: With a 24-hour cycle between cable TV and the Internet, you have attacks followed by attacks, followed by rebuttals, followed by rebuttal to that, too. So it's -- not only is it uglier than ever, but it starts earlier than ever. And it's more - I think it's more intense than ever.
MALVEAUX: Both sides acknowledge the negative campaigning could backfire. So Senator Kerry offered this scenario.
KERRY: Who knows? Maybe it's possible that when it's all over, George Bush and I will be able to sit down together at a Red Sox/Rangers game and shake hands as friends. I'll tell you this. That would be an election that Americans would win in the end.
MALVEAUX (on camera): But considering the way things have been going lately, that's not likely.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Joining us now to talk about this and other matters, "Newsweek" political correspondent Trent Gegax and Larry Sabato, director of the University of Virginia's Center for Politics.
Excuse me, Larry. I know we've spoken many times before. Let me start with you. What do you make of the fact that the Bush campaign is debuting its ads so early in the political season?
LARRY SABATO, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Well, there are seven and a half months to go, but you know, the election's tomorrow in their mind. And it ought to be.
Bush has slipped well behind. Most of the surveys show either a tie or Bush losing by six to eight points. They can't start too soon. And I think they recognize that. They're behind the eight ball in a lot of the big states that they absolutely have to be at least competitive in if Bush is going to win November 2nd.
LIN: Yes, and it seems, Trent, that it's a race as to who's going to define John Kerry first, John Kerry or the Bush campaign.
TRENT GEGAX, NEWSWEEK: Yes, that's right. The definition is the word of the month. And I think the Bush people think that the voters really know George Bush. They don't know a lot about John Kerry. So they're going to get out there and define him as a soft, flip-flopping elitist.
But I think they're probably surprised by how quickly the Kerry camp is counter jabbing. And it sort of reminds me of the -- back in 2000, the candy gram committee that Dan Bartlett headed up. They were very effective in counterpunching Gore. And I would imagine they're a little surprised at Kerry's effectiveness.
LIN: But Trent, what could the fallout be amongst the voters when the negative campaigning starts so early?
GEGAX: Well, they're engaged right now. I'm not convinced voters will hate the idea of a nasty campaign this year.
LIN: Really? GEGAX: They're evenly divided right now. And especially, John Kerry, he's got an interest in showing people he's got, you know, the fire in the belly because he has this sort of lackadaisical reputation. And he is out there showing people he's a fighter. And that could help him.
LIN: Larry, what do you think? Do you think this is going to inspire voters? I mean, claims like, for example, President Bush is running in his ads that John Kerry, if he's elected, would raise taxes $900 billion. I mean, that is such a huge number, it's hard to even get your head around.
SABATO: Well, it is. Keep in mind, Carol, it's a long time to November. I think the key consideration is whether we go from legitimate negatives, which are really contrasts about issue positions, they're all right, to negatives that involve name calling or even investigation into personal lives. That would really turn voters off and I think turnout would decline.
LIN: But usually, those are the soft money ad campaigns that are run by the parties. How badly can it really reflect on the candidate himself?
SABATO: Well, I think people have gotten video-wise about these television campaigns. Even if they're "independent committees," most people who show up to vote can figure out exactly who's behind them.
LIN: All right, we've got a few seconds left.
Trent, the Nader factor. Ralph Nader. Is he going to be an upset for John Kerry?
GEGAX: Well, he'd be a lot more dangerous if he was running as the Green Party candidate, but he's going to have difficulty getting access to a lot of ballots in states. So if the Democrats can use him to bring voters out, to bring their base out, then I think he could actually help.
LIN: Larry, does he - is he likely to have an effect in any particular part of the country?
SABATO: Well, he could. I'm betting this year, he gets less than 1 percent of the vote. In 2000, he got 2.7 percent of the vote. So he's about as third as damaging to Kerry as he was to Gore.
LIN: Thank you very much, Frank Gegax of "Newsweek" and Larry Sabato of University of Virginia for joining us tonight. We'll see what happens.
SABATO: Thank you.
LIN: It is early in the season. We'll be talking again.
A bold proposal to avoid another political blunder. Up next, the latest on Senator Clinton's plan to get accurate counts on election day. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: This hour's top story, Spain detains five in the investigation of Thursday's train bombings.
Fresno police hold a dad in the death of nine of his children.
And two Pittsburgh firefighters die when a burning church collapses.
Democrats are not 100 percent sold on the reliability of new electronic voting machines. There were glitches in Florida this week. And now Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Bob Graham want to eliminate the oops factor. They've drafted a bill requiring the electronic machines to produce paper records. The paper trail could be used if a recount is needed.
50 million people are set to e-vote in this election this fall. And there is another worry, hacking. After the 2000 hanging chad debacle, no one wants defective hardware, bugs in the software, or malicious programmers deciding the election.
David Dill is a computer science professor at Stanford University. And he's one of the country's leadings experts on e- voting. He joins us now from Mountain View, California.
Hi, there.
DAVID DILL, WWW.VERIFIEDVOTING.ORG: Hi.
LIN: What are the chances of somebody hacking into one of these e-voting machines?
DILL: The problems, we have no idea. We think it's possible that it could happen, especially if it's done by somebody at the company. But the problem with these machines is nobody can see what's going on inside.
LIN: Well, legislators in California are already asking that e- voting machines in 40 counties in California be suspended until they can work out the glitches. Some of the bigger counties in the last primary had a few problems. They got the wrong ballots actually to vote on.
If Hillary Rodham Clinton gets her way, and there is this move to create a paper receipt in these e-voting machines, would that solve the problem? Because in theory, perhaps in some places you could actually vote, get a printout of the receipt, and then drop that in a ballot box.
DILL: Yes, that's one solution. One way or the other, we need some kind of paper ballot. The voter needs to see a permanent record that is made of his or her vote. And of course, that has to be kept. And of course, it has to be recounted whenever there's a question about the election.
LIN: Well, how do you clear up these technical glitches?
DILL: You do the best you can with computers, but computers inherently are going to have glitches. That's why we need for every voter to make sure that the computer has done what it was supposed to do, instead of making - instead of putting all that burden on the programmers and the people who inspect the machines.
LIN: All right, David Dill, we'll see what happens. Thank you very much.
We have breaking news now on the investigation into the train bombing out of Madrid.
Al Goodman reporting for us right now. Al, what have you learned?
AL GOODMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: ...minister has just made his third appearance of the day. And he has just revealed that the police have taken a videotape in which a man, he says, speaking in Arabic with a Moroccan accent has announced a claim of responsibility for Thursday's commuter train bombings in Madrid that killed 200 people and injured 1,400 in the name of al Qaeda.
He said that this man identified himself as the military spokesman for al Qaeda in Europe, that the tape was made known to authorities because there was a call into a Madrid television station called Telemadrid. That's a regional television station for the area of Madrid.
Police went to an area on the east side of the city, near the main mosque in the city. Of course Spain is mainly a Roman Catholic country. Most of the places of worship are Roman Catholic churches and cathedrals, but there are also mosques. And the major mosque in Madrid is near where this tape was taken by police. He said this happened at a little before 8:00 local time in the evening, which would have been about four hours ago.
Police first analyzed the tape to make sure it was not a booby trapped bomb. And they analyzed it to see if they could find fingerprints. Then they looked at it and they saw this claim of responsibility.
Now they say they have checked with some foreign intelligence agencies, including the British intelligence, who don't give much credence to this. But the interior minister on the -- just hours before the voting will start for national parliamentary elections, said that in the aim of trying to inform the public as much as possible, he's come back out for a third time to say that there has been a claim of responsibility now in the name of al Qaeda. Back to you.
LIN: Al, do you know any more of the detail of what was actually said on this tape, beyond the claim of responsibility? Any motive, for example?
GOODMAN: He said - right, he says that the ministry will be distributing the text of this fairly shortly, to reporters. We have just monitored this news conference. We have been covering the demonstrations in Madrid. And we're stuck in the massive traffic jams, having moved from one part of town to the other trying to follow the demonstrations.
The minister suddenly had this news conference. We have been monitoring it live off the most listened to radio network in the country called Ser (ph).
The minister gave the name of this spokesman. I will not try to pronounce it. And I don't have a spelling for it. But he says that intelligence officers and security people here in Spain, having checked with their colleagues in other European countries, don't give much credence to it, but he wanted to make it known.
Now this is the first clear claim of responsibility from someone claiming to be with al Qaeda for this bombing.
LIN: Right.
GOODMAN: There previously was a claim from another group that has been linked to al Qaeda that made a claim on Thursday...
LIN: Right.
GOODMAN: ...in an Arabic language newspaper "al Hood" in London. That was also discounted by the Spanish authorities. Now we have a second claim.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Al Goodman. Five people have been arrested as suspects in that train bombing from last Thursday. And now Al Goodman reporting that a videotape was given to a regional television station, where someone claiming to be the medical spokesman for al Qaeda has claimed responsibility.
All right, we're going to quickly go to break. And we'll check on more news for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: That's it for us. Coming up next, "THE CAPITAL GANG." at 8:00 Eastern, "CNN PRESENTS: True Believers, Inside the Rise and Fall of the Howard Dean campaign." At 9:00, Larry King. Larry's guest tonight, Donald Trump talks about his new hit reality show, "The Apprentice." And then at 10:00 Eastern, "CNN SATURDAY" night. Please join me, because I'm going to have the latest trainee booted off the show. You know, it's Heidi.
Right now, Mark Shields tells us what the gang has to offer.
Hi, Mark.
MARK SHIELDS, HOST, "THE CAPITAL GANG": Carol, Mayor Michael Bloomberg joins the gang for our annual visit to New York City. We'll look at the terrorist attack in Madrid. Bush versus Kerry, taking off the gloves and the politics of gay marriage. All that and much more right here next on CNN.
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Pennsylvania; John Kerry Calls For Monthly Debates Starting This Spring; Concerns Over E-Voting Cause Som Harsh Criticism From Computer Science Industry>
Aired March 13, 2004 - 18:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: At the half hour, here a look at what's happening right now. While thousands protest the investigation, officials today announced several arrests in connection with the Madrid train bombings. Three Morrocans and 2 Indians are being held. Investigators say a telephone calling card and a cell phone link the suspects to Thursday's attacks. The bombings killed 200 commuters and injured more than 1500 others.
Mourners at a funeral for stampede victims in northeastern Syria turned violent today. Hundreds of people started rioting, shouting anti-government slogans, and setting fires. Witnesses say police fired shots in the air to disperse the crowd.
And crews in Maryland continue searching for three passengers still missing after their water taxi capsized one week ago. Investigators say the pontoon boat flipped in Baltimore's Inner Harbor during a sudden storm. Two people pulled from the water died soon after the accident.
Well, today, workers are trying to lift the submerged roof of the water taxi. Investigators say its location will help narrow the search for the missing passengers.
A historic church in Pittsburgh is praying to rebuild after a devastating and deadly fire. Two firefighters were killed and more than two dozen others hurt in the blaze at Ebenezer Baptist Church.
Reporter Meghan Jones with affiliate WTAE is live from the scene with the latest there -- Meghan?
MEGHAN JONES, WTAE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Carol, I actually witnessed the collapse. I was standing about where I am right now whenever the bell tower came down. And if you can see behind me, it took with it the wooden gables and also a lot of the bricks from the side of the building.
Now whenever that loud crash occurred on the sidewalk, all you could hear were people running and screaming, trying to get to the injured firefighters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MEGHAN JONES, WTAE NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the moment the walls came down, it was immediately apparent that people had been hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of a sudden, the side of the building just came -- started coming down. We started yelling for the firefighters to get out the way and they started looking up and the bricks just fell down on them.
JONES: Paramedics and firefighters scrambled to help those injured, as more pieces came down. Paramedics carried injured firefighters away from the building, fearing more of the building would fall.
J.T. THOMAS, WITNESS: It was devastating and people reacting to it, because quite a few people were here on the premises, you know, watching it.
JONES: So many people, many of them church members, saw their church on fire, then witnessed the horrible crash. Then came news that two firefighters were missing inside the building, presumably buried under the rubble. Rescue crews asked parishioners for help in finding out how to get them out.
ROGER TRAVIS, CHURCH MEMBER: What it is, it's part of a vestibule entrance, where there is a stairwell that goes downstairs to the basement where we used to have Sunday school. In all probability, the steps are gone. So if the steps are gone, then they're going to have to lift them up out of there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JONES: Both of the firefighters were found on the basement floor in the vestibule area of the church. Now fire officials say at the time they were fighting the fire, they had no idea the bell tower was not stable. And, in fact, the fire is still burning. And they will have to work into the evening here to put that out.
Live in Pittsburgh, I'm Meghan Jones. Now back to you.
LIN: Thanks, Meghan.
We're turning to presidential politics next, hitting the airwaves. We're going to find out how the latest negative ads will affect the race for the White House.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: The campaign trail took Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry to Illinois today. He visited the site of some famous debates to suggest some of his own.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And so here in Quincy...
CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Kerry is directly challenging his Republican rival. KERRY: I am asking George Bush to agree to a series of monthly debates starting this spring, to talk about the real issues in our country.
LIN: The Massachusetts senator pitched the idea in Quincy, Illinois, where one of the debates between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas took place almost 150 years ago.
KERRY: This should be a campaign worthy of the great issues before us, a campaign that truly can give the election of America's president back to the people.
LIN: Kerry's trying to focus on the issues after a week of a lot of negative back and forth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New government spending...
LIN: At the same time, President Bush unleashed a multimillion dollar TV ad campaign, charging Kerry would raise taxes and questioning Kerry's record on defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And he wanted to delay defending America until the United Nations approved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once again, George Bush is misleading America.
LIN: That forced John Kerry to respond with his own ads in key battleground states.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...wants to cut taxes for the middle class.
LIN: A Bush campaign official rejected the possibility that Bush would debate Kerry until after the Republican and Democratic conventions. The official response? The senator should "finish the debate with himself before he starts to explain his positions to the voters."
The Bush campaign accused Kerry of trying to change the subject after Republicans criticized the senator for calling them crooked and liars, while talking casually with Chicago workers.
The Kerry campaign believes that going head-to-head with Bush would highlight the senator's debating skills, which helped him win his tough 1996 re-election bid. Recalling the steamer Lincoln and Douglas took after the debate, Kerry joked he probably won't be sharing a train ride with President Bush anytime soon.
KERRY: Who knows? Maybe it's possible that when it's all over, George Bush and I will be able to sit down together at a Red Sox/Rangers game and shake hands as friends.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: We shall see. This year's presidential campaign seems to have started earlier than ever. President Bush and Senator Kerry have already exchanged jabs, as you just saw, but will the negative tone continue?
CNN White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After weeks of both sides swinging, President Bush's opponent seemingly offered an olive branch.
JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: President Bush and I can do better. And America deserves better.
MALVEAUX: A call to drop the negative campaigning and a challenge to the president.
KERRY: I am asking George Bush to agree to a series of monthly debates, starting this spring, to talk about the real issues in our country.
MALVEAUX: While Mr. Bush has already committed to three debates, his campaign is still smarting from Senator Kerry's offhanded comment...
KERRY: These guys are the most crooked...
MALVEAUX: A Bush campaign spokesman said after calling Republicans crooks and liars, John Kerry is now calling for a civil debate on the issues. Senator Kerry should finish the debate with himself, before he starts trying to explain his positions to the voters.
Earlier in the day, in dueling radio addresses, the president and Democrats faced off over the economy. Mr. Bush said his critics' plan would kill jobs.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They want to increase federal taxes. Yet punishing families and small businesses is not a job creation strategy.
MALVEAUX: Senator Kerry has said he would not raise taxes, but only roll back the tax cut for America's most wealthy. Liberal icon Senator Ted Kennedy fired back.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Job creation in America is in the basement.
MALVEAUX: Some political observers say the early hostilities between the Bush/Kerry camps will make it harder to make nice later.
KEN RUDIN, POLITICAL ANALYST: With a 24-hour cycle between cable TV and the Internet, you have attacks followed by attacks, followed by rebuttals, followed by rebuttal to that, too. So it's -- not only is it uglier than ever, but it starts earlier than ever. And it's more - I think it's more intense than ever.
MALVEAUX: Both sides acknowledge the negative campaigning could backfire. So Senator Kerry offered this scenario.
KERRY: Who knows? Maybe it's possible that when it's all over, George Bush and I will be able to sit down together at a Red Sox/Rangers game and shake hands as friends. I'll tell you this. That would be an election that Americans would win in the end.
MALVEAUX (on camera): But considering the way things have been going lately, that's not likely.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Joining us now to talk about this and other matters, "Newsweek" political correspondent Trent Gegax and Larry Sabato, director of the University of Virginia's Center for Politics.
Excuse me, Larry. I know we've spoken many times before. Let me start with you. What do you make of the fact that the Bush campaign is debuting its ads so early in the political season?
LARRY SABATO, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Well, there are seven and a half months to go, but you know, the election's tomorrow in their mind. And it ought to be.
Bush has slipped well behind. Most of the surveys show either a tie or Bush losing by six to eight points. They can't start too soon. And I think they recognize that. They're behind the eight ball in a lot of the big states that they absolutely have to be at least competitive in if Bush is going to win November 2nd.
LIN: Yes, and it seems, Trent, that it's a race as to who's going to define John Kerry first, John Kerry or the Bush campaign.
TRENT GEGAX, NEWSWEEK: Yes, that's right. The definition is the word of the month. And I think the Bush people think that the voters really know George Bush. They don't know a lot about John Kerry. So they're going to get out there and define him as a soft, flip-flopping elitist.
But I think they're probably surprised by how quickly the Kerry camp is counter jabbing. And it sort of reminds me of the -- back in 2000, the candy gram committee that Dan Bartlett headed up. They were very effective in counterpunching Gore. And I would imagine they're a little surprised at Kerry's effectiveness.
LIN: But Trent, what could the fallout be amongst the voters when the negative campaigning starts so early?
GEGAX: Well, they're engaged right now. I'm not convinced voters will hate the idea of a nasty campaign this year.
LIN: Really? GEGAX: They're evenly divided right now. And especially, John Kerry, he's got an interest in showing people he's got, you know, the fire in the belly because he has this sort of lackadaisical reputation. And he is out there showing people he's a fighter. And that could help him.
LIN: Larry, what do you think? Do you think this is going to inspire voters? I mean, claims like, for example, President Bush is running in his ads that John Kerry, if he's elected, would raise taxes $900 billion. I mean, that is such a huge number, it's hard to even get your head around.
SABATO: Well, it is. Keep in mind, Carol, it's a long time to November. I think the key consideration is whether we go from legitimate negatives, which are really contrasts about issue positions, they're all right, to negatives that involve name calling or even investigation into personal lives. That would really turn voters off and I think turnout would decline.
LIN: But usually, those are the soft money ad campaigns that are run by the parties. How badly can it really reflect on the candidate himself?
SABATO: Well, I think people have gotten video-wise about these television campaigns. Even if they're "independent committees," most people who show up to vote can figure out exactly who's behind them.
LIN: All right, we've got a few seconds left.
Trent, the Nader factor. Ralph Nader. Is he going to be an upset for John Kerry?
GEGAX: Well, he'd be a lot more dangerous if he was running as the Green Party candidate, but he's going to have difficulty getting access to a lot of ballots in states. So if the Democrats can use him to bring voters out, to bring their base out, then I think he could actually help.
LIN: Larry, does he - is he likely to have an effect in any particular part of the country?
SABATO: Well, he could. I'm betting this year, he gets less than 1 percent of the vote. In 2000, he got 2.7 percent of the vote. So he's about as third as damaging to Kerry as he was to Gore.
LIN: Thank you very much, Frank Gegax of "Newsweek" and Larry Sabato of University of Virginia for joining us tonight. We'll see what happens.
SABATO: Thank you.
LIN: It is early in the season. We'll be talking again.
A bold proposal to avoid another political blunder. Up next, the latest on Senator Clinton's plan to get accurate counts on election day. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: This hour's top story, Spain detains five in the investigation of Thursday's train bombings.
Fresno police hold a dad in the death of nine of his children.
And two Pittsburgh firefighters die when a burning church collapses.
Democrats are not 100 percent sold on the reliability of new electronic voting machines. There were glitches in Florida this week. And now Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Bob Graham want to eliminate the oops factor. They've drafted a bill requiring the electronic machines to produce paper records. The paper trail could be used if a recount is needed.
50 million people are set to e-vote in this election this fall. And there is another worry, hacking. After the 2000 hanging chad debacle, no one wants defective hardware, bugs in the software, or malicious programmers deciding the election.
David Dill is a computer science professor at Stanford University. And he's one of the country's leadings experts on e- voting. He joins us now from Mountain View, California.
Hi, there.
DAVID DILL, WWW.VERIFIEDVOTING.ORG: Hi.
LIN: What are the chances of somebody hacking into one of these e-voting machines?
DILL: The problems, we have no idea. We think it's possible that it could happen, especially if it's done by somebody at the company. But the problem with these machines is nobody can see what's going on inside.
LIN: Well, legislators in California are already asking that e- voting machines in 40 counties in California be suspended until they can work out the glitches. Some of the bigger counties in the last primary had a few problems. They got the wrong ballots actually to vote on.
If Hillary Rodham Clinton gets her way, and there is this move to create a paper receipt in these e-voting machines, would that solve the problem? Because in theory, perhaps in some places you could actually vote, get a printout of the receipt, and then drop that in a ballot box.
DILL: Yes, that's one solution. One way or the other, we need some kind of paper ballot. The voter needs to see a permanent record that is made of his or her vote. And of course, that has to be kept. And of course, it has to be recounted whenever there's a question about the election.
LIN: Well, how do you clear up these technical glitches?
DILL: You do the best you can with computers, but computers inherently are going to have glitches. That's why we need for every voter to make sure that the computer has done what it was supposed to do, instead of making - instead of putting all that burden on the programmers and the people who inspect the machines.
LIN: All right, David Dill, we'll see what happens. Thank you very much.
We have breaking news now on the investigation into the train bombing out of Madrid.
Al Goodman reporting for us right now. Al, what have you learned?
AL GOODMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: ...minister has just made his third appearance of the day. And he has just revealed that the police have taken a videotape in which a man, he says, speaking in Arabic with a Moroccan accent has announced a claim of responsibility for Thursday's commuter train bombings in Madrid that killed 200 people and injured 1,400 in the name of al Qaeda.
He said that this man identified himself as the military spokesman for al Qaeda in Europe, that the tape was made known to authorities because there was a call into a Madrid television station called Telemadrid. That's a regional television station for the area of Madrid.
Police went to an area on the east side of the city, near the main mosque in the city. Of course Spain is mainly a Roman Catholic country. Most of the places of worship are Roman Catholic churches and cathedrals, but there are also mosques. And the major mosque in Madrid is near where this tape was taken by police. He said this happened at a little before 8:00 local time in the evening, which would have been about four hours ago.
Police first analyzed the tape to make sure it was not a booby trapped bomb. And they analyzed it to see if they could find fingerprints. Then they looked at it and they saw this claim of responsibility.
Now they say they have checked with some foreign intelligence agencies, including the British intelligence, who don't give much credence to this. But the interior minister on the -- just hours before the voting will start for national parliamentary elections, said that in the aim of trying to inform the public as much as possible, he's come back out for a third time to say that there has been a claim of responsibility now in the name of al Qaeda. Back to you.
LIN: Al, do you know any more of the detail of what was actually said on this tape, beyond the claim of responsibility? Any motive, for example?
GOODMAN: He said - right, he says that the ministry will be distributing the text of this fairly shortly, to reporters. We have just monitored this news conference. We have been covering the demonstrations in Madrid. And we're stuck in the massive traffic jams, having moved from one part of town to the other trying to follow the demonstrations.
The minister suddenly had this news conference. We have been monitoring it live off the most listened to radio network in the country called Ser (ph).
The minister gave the name of this spokesman. I will not try to pronounce it. And I don't have a spelling for it. But he says that intelligence officers and security people here in Spain, having checked with their colleagues in other European countries, don't give much credence to it, but he wanted to make it known.
Now this is the first clear claim of responsibility from someone claiming to be with al Qaeda for this bombing.
LIN: Right.
GOODMAN: There previously was a claim from another group that has been linked to al Qaeda that made a claim on Thursday...
LIN: Right.
GOODMAN: ...in an Arabic language newspaper "al Hood" in London. That was also discounted by the Spanish authorities. Now we have a second claim.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Al Goodman. Five people have been arrested as suspects in that train bombing from last Thursday. And now Al Goodman reporting that a videotape was given to a regional television station, where someone claiming to be the medical spokesman for al Qaeda has claimed responsibility.
All right, we're going to quickly go to break. And we'll check on more news for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: That's it for us. Coming up next, "THE CAPITAL GANG." at 8:00 Eastern, "CNN PRESENTS: True Believers, Inside the Rise and Fall of the Howard Dean campaign." At 9:00, Larry King. Larry's guest tonight, Donald Trump talks about his new hit reality show, "The Apprentice." And then at 10:00 Eastern, "CNN SATURDAY" night. Please join me, because I'm going to have the latest trainee booted off the show. You know, it's Heidi.
Right now, Mark Shields tells us what the gang has to offer.
Hi, Mark.
MARK SHIELDS, HOST, "THE CAPITAL GANG": Carol, Mayor Michael Bloomberg joins the gang for our annual visit to New York City. We'll look at the terrorist attack in Madrid. Bush versus Kerry, taking off the gloves and the politics of gay marriage. All that and much more right here next on CNN.
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Pennsylvania; John Kerry Calls For Monthly Debates Starting This Spring; Concerns Over E-Voting Cause Som Harsh Criticism From Computer Science Industry>
