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CNN Live Saturday
Anti-War Protesters Mark First Anniversary of U.S. Invasion of Iraq; Day Five of al Qaeda/Pakistani Forces Battle
Aired March 20, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Carol Lin, and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
We begin in New York. It's one of several cities around the world filled with anti-war protesters. They're marking the first anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.
CNN's Adaora Udoji joins us now from the Big Apple, where thousands of people, Adaora, hit the streets today.
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol.
It's coming to an end here on the east side of Manhattan, and as you said there were thousands of people today. It came to an orderly end, to what was an orderly and very peaceful march today.
Thousands and thousands of people marching. No official numbers yet. The NYPD sources telling us they're thinking around 40,000 people, but organizers insist it was more like 100,000 people.
Whatever the case, the rally, and there was a march, was put together today by a group called Unity for Peace and Justice. A very diverse group, from labor unions to student groups to other sorts of groups. They came today to protest the U.S. presence in Iraq. They say the United States should pull out, that troops should be sent home.
There were about 2 dozen speakers including Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, also of course the Ohio U.S. representative who has been highly critical of the war.
Among the other groups that showed up, again, like I said, there were members from labor unions. There were local politicians. There was also a group of military families. They were coming to show how much they oppose the war. And we spoke to many. Thousands came from all over the region, from Boston, from as far away as Washington, and we talked to many of them and asked them why they felt it was so important to come today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm outraged by this administration and they've sent our men to war, and there was no danger from Iraq. They said that there were weapons of mass destruction and there are none. They said there were chemical and biological weapons and there are none. They said there were ties to al Qaeda and there are none.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And people are still dying, and we just felt it was very important to be here and express our outrage at the policies of our government that think that killing is a way to make peace. It doesn't make any sense to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UDOJI: Now the organizers, United For Peace and Justice, said that today they planned over 250 rallies across the country. They say the gatherings are meant to send a message that in this election year, they plan to be very active -- Carol.
LIN: Clearly. Thank you very much, Adaora Udoji, in New York.
There were several anti-war protests around the globe. In Cairo, Egypt, demonstrators burned U.S. flags as riot police kept a close watch. In Rome, protesters set off colorful smoke flares at the residence of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. They also demanded Italy withdraw its 2,600 troops from Iraq.
Rome's was the biggest rally by far. Police said it drew 1/4- million people.
And wet weather didn't keep protesters away in Tokyo. Some wore shopping bags with anti-war emblems over their heads to shield themselves from the rain.
And now we move on to a pitch battle in Pakistan. It is day five of that fierce battle along the country's border with Afghanistan. Pakistani forces continue their assault on suspected al Qaeda fighters holed up in about eight compounds, but officials are now less certain about the identity of a, quote, "high value target" the militants are thought to be protecting.
Is it al Qaeda's second in command as first suggested? Or is it someone else?
CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson joins us now by telephone. He is in Islamabad.
Ken, what do you know about what's happening along the border?
KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATL. SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Carol, as you stated, Pakistani military officials in Waziristan raised doubts on March 20 as to the identity of the high value target. They had spoken with CNN on the previous three days and members of the intelligence services and general officers felt they were certain that this possibly would be Ayman al-Zawahiri at the compound.
The battles have been intermittent because the Pakistani military originally tried to prevent collateral damage on civilians and there have been several times at night when the battles have stopped and because of the geographical areas involved on these seven compounds, it's likely that, by the way they defended themselves and they prepared their defenses, that they may have also prepared an escape route.
Now this is a very tough geographical areas to try to cordon off. In this part of the world, you just don't corner anybody. You do the best you can.
LIN: I mean, there are back roads, there are donkey trails through canyons. How much military support or high technology does the Pakistani military have in this battle to try to track people down if they do try to escape?
ROBINSON: The Pakistani government enjoys first-world technology because they're receiving support from the United States government and as well many of their military officers have trained in our schools in the West. Predator drones, the thermal imaging Joint Stars, which does moving target indicators in that areas, enabling military personnel to distinguish between the movement of vehicles and the movement of personnel, like donkey trails.
But however, there is an enormous amount of analysis required and an enormous amount of just gut checks on what we're looking at because there are displaced persons moving around the area and it's hard to distinguish between them and the foreign fighters in the areas.
CNN's Nic Robertson went up there and was able to lay eyes on it earlier today, and he was not able to get close enough to where the actual fighting occurred to be able to provide an independent eyes-on report of what the Pakistani military was telling us.
LIN: What made anyone believe that Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's deputy, was even in that area?
ROBINSON: Two things stared that, Carol. The first was the ferocious nature of the fighting. Normally, these fighters in this area, when they are contacted by government forces tend to melt away into the mountainside. They don't tend to stand their ground. But in these several geographically separated areas, they tended to close ranks and fight.
The second was a large armored car and two security cars tried to break away during the initial contact, and then it was repelled and moved back into the compound.
And third, prisoners which were taken at the time were interrogated and those prisoners that were interrogated said that Ayman al-Zawahiri was in one of the compounds.
LIN: All right. Well, a large area that those troops have to cover, some 19 square miles.
Thank you very much, Ken Robinson, checking in with us from Islamabad.
Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are the subjects of today's PEOPLE IN THE NEWS. Don't miss it. That is at 5:00 p.m. Eastern.
Iraqis are greeting the war's first anniversary with a sense of wariness. Much has improved with the fall of Saddam Hussein, but there are lingering problems. Chief among them, security.
Our Jim Clancy talked to an Iraqi doctor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Baghdad awoke to clear skies and bright sunshine where a year earlier the smoke from coalition bombs choked the air.
Two Black Hawk helicopters glided above the Tigris River, whirling past the former palace of Saddam Hussein. One year has brought real change, but in many ways Iraq's 25 million people are still waiting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to think only of how to start a new page. That's the most important now. The new page has not been started yet.
CLANCY: Dr. Razika Al-Abadi (ph) is a hematologist who works with children. She went from earning less than $2 a month before the war to hundreds of dollars a month today. The problem, she can't enjoy it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot go to a restaurant. I cannot go to the market. I cannot have some enjoyment with my friends anywhere. We are afraid to go alone. Even with our families. Even I am afraid for my brothers. This is the main problem now.
CLANCY: The main problem a year after the war to liberate Iraq is security. Dr. Razika (ph) fears things could get worse before they get any better. An enthusiastic new member of Iraq's Civil Defense Corps predicts two more years are needed to deliver on the promise of a new Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and we need more power, more equipment and more people coming for us here to join with the ICDC to make us more and more power. That's needed at this time.
CLANCY: Time is needed not just for security but to change the mentality here. Dr. Razika (ph) says one of the most important changes she has seen is the arrival of Internet centers where ordinary Iraqis can do what they never did before, gather information on the global Internet, or that's what she thought.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once I went to an Internet center. They didn't allow me because I'm not wearing a hijab in the city.
CLANCY: What Iraqi society needs in her view is not just security but mutual respect. What good is freedom if it gives some the right to dictate the rules to others.
(on camera): Dr. Razika (ph) and most other Iraqis say there is no doubt that it is better Saddam Hussein is gone, but one year later, uncertainties in both politics and security still cloud their hopes for the future.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Six U.S. soldiers are charged with cruelty to Iraqi prisoners. Barbara Starr reports on the other charges in the allegations.
And President Bush was on the road today, guess where, Florida. Know why? We're going to tell you in just a minute.
And it's been 50 years since a little Indiana high school basketball team won its state's championship. You know the story. It's the movie, "Hoosiers." Bobby Plump, the player who made the last second winning shot, is going to be our guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Top stories this hour.
Two Yemeni men arrested, at least one of them a suspect on the October 2000 attack on the USS Cole. Thousands rally in New York and other cities against the war in Iraq. And the battle in Pakistan continues, where al Qaeda's No. 2 man may be holed up.
The campaign to reelect President Bush is officially off and running. More than 10,000 cheering supporters heard Mr. Bush defend his record and blast his opponent at a Florida kickoff rally today.
More from White House correspondent Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Where else would the president hold his debut campaign rally, but the Sunshine State? Make that the recount state.
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: Here in Florida and Orlando, because that's where we wanted it to be.
BASH: With his wife and governor brother to warm up a crowd that didn't need warming, Mr. Bush tossed his 12,000 supporters a little red meat about his Democratic opponent.
BUSH: The other day here in Florida, he claimed some important endorsements from overseas. He won't tell us the name of the foreign admirers. That's OK. Either way, I'm not too worried because I'm going to keep my campaign right here in America.
BASH: After a week of whacking Senator John Kerry on national security, the president turned to the home front, stepped up attacks on taxes.
BUSH: Over the years, he's voted over 350 times for higher taxes on the American people. It's pretty clear how he's going to fill the tax gap. He's going to tax all of you.
BASH: A Kerry spokesman shot back, "John Kerry has fought for middle class tax relief and proposed new middle class tax cuts in this campaign."
It was a fall-like event on the first day of spring, jam packed convention hall complete with multicolored lights, screaming fans, designed to show the president as rock star and to show the world the Bush machine has turned on the switch.
The president won Florida and the White House after the Supreme Court stopped the recount with him ahead 537 votes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we learned some lessons in 2000. A lot of work has been put into the grassroots in Florida. I think it's going to pay off
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And there was an aggressive grassroots effort in full force after that rally. Hundreds of volunteers went out to knock on doors, cell phones were distributed to phone banks. The campaign's goal was to contact 38,000 voters in Florida to register them and to recruit them -- Carol.
LIN: Still, Dana, the events unfolding in Iraq and the battles there, the continuing suicide bombings there, still are dogging the president, and I'm wondering, you know, even after the French foreign minister yesterday said that the Iraqi War is making the world a more dangerous place, the president continues to campaign on his wartime credentials.
What is the logic behind that?
BASH: Well, the logic behind that is that when campaign officials look at the polls, they see that the president's perhaps top asset is perhaps his war credentials, specifically, though on the war on terrorism, and that is why you hear the president talking about that time and time again.
In his campaign ads he talked about steady leadership and times have changed. That's the tag line. There's a reason for it. It's because of those polls.
It's also interesting to remember, yesterday in the president's speech, he was speaking to allies, more than 80 of them, linking the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism and the big reason for that is because of the support for the war on terrorism, not so much support for the war in Iraq -- Carol.
LIN: Got you. Thank you very much, Dana Bash, live at the White House.
We're going to continue on this subject here. Obviously terrorism has been an issue in the presidential race, but campaigning around it is tricky as the recent flap over the 9/11 images in President Bush's ads clearly shows.
So we're going to go to Washington for some thoughts on that, from CNN political analyst and "LA Times" correspondent Ron Brownstein and Michael Gordon of the "Economist."
Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us tonight.
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LA TIMES": Hi, Carol.
LIN: Ron, what do you make of what Dana Bash was just saying, in terms of the Bush campaign strategy to link both the war on terror and the war in Iraq. Can that be troublesome for the president?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, she's exactly right that there is a distinction in public opinion in the way voters assess the president's job on terror, has been very high since 9/11. On Iraq, it's more equivocal. The ratings, one poll came out last week with most people -- a plurality of people -- saying they disapprove of the way he's handling Iraq. That's been much more contingent on events, how things are going in Iraq.
So it's clearly in the president's interest to argue that Iraq is a front in the war on terror.
The Democratic case, expressed most clearly by Wesley Clark, perhaps, was that this is a distraction in the war on terror. John Kerry doesn't put it quite so unequivocally, but he does argue that the president's policy there, the president's course, has isolated us from our allies, imposed too many costs on Americans in terms of both financial and lives.
So Iraq is a much more contested battlefield in this campaign than the president's management of the war on terror.
LIN: Michael, already Spain's prime minister-elect is threatening to pull the Spanish troops out of the coalition effort in Iraq. What sort of an impact do you think this might have on the U.S. presidential campaign?
MICHAEL GORDON, "THE ECONOMIST": Well, Carol, I guess to the extent that Americans really pay attention to elections overseas is really going to decide this. And traditionally, as all Americans know, is that Americans have traditionally not paid all that much attention to elections overseas.
But be that as it may, it certainly plays into the hands of the Democrats, who are clearly saying that the United States has burned its bridges overseas and that its unilateralism has alienated a lot of our traditional allies.
But in doing so, I think John Kerry and the Democrats have to be particularly careful in really how they approach this. Any mention of terrorism always plays into the hands of the Republicans and the Bush administration. And even though John Kerry has proven quite popular in quite a number of policy areas, such as education and health care, his largest weak spot is on terrorism and security. And furthermore, a lot of Mr. Bush's backers are saying, well, once again, you have to look out for No. 1, and that even allies overseas, such as Spain or Britain, really cannot in the long-run protect us.
LIN: Ron, I'm just wondering, John Kerry is also walking a fine line too in his campaign. I mean, after al Qaeda has taken credit for the Spanish train bombings, John Kerry has to be careful not to be too critical of the president and not to give any confirmation to al Qaeda that they could have any effect by doing something similar right here in the United States...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWNSTEIN: And in fact he has been very cautious.
As Michael said, you could -- Democrats could certainly use the Spanish election as evidence in their argument that the president's policies are driving away traditional allies. We know have governments elected in Spain in Germany in the last two years, both essentially on platforms of establishing distance with the United States.
But I fact, Kerry has been very cautious and his aides have been very cautious about using Spain in any way in the election, I think largely because there is a point of view in America that says at least part of the result was driven by a desire to in effect negotiate a separate peace with terrorists, and that is not an impulse that any American politician or political leader wants to get close with.
So in fact they have downplayed Spain much more than you might have expected, given the kind of result that we saw.
LIN: All right. The campaign is still very early.
Thank you very much, Michael Gordon, Ron Brownstein.
GORDON: You're welcome.
LIN: Well, a "Time" magazine photographer looks back at a year in pictures in Iraq.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Words like aggression, adrenaline and concentration are not normally the subjects of photographs, unless they're shot in Iraq.
CNN checked in with "Time" photographer Bob Nikelsberg over the past year. He was embedded with the U.S. Marines during the war. On this anniversary, he reflects on what he has seen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB NIKELSBERG, PHOTOGRAPHER (voice-over): I was with the 3rd Battalion 4th Marines from 29 Palms, California in Kuwait in 2003 and January, and went all the way to Baghdad with them until mid-April. They're known a very aggressive infantry and that's really what they were trained to do, over and over again. Sort of muscle memory, they call it. The amount of adrenaline and motivation that was visible, you could taste it.
The concentration and the focus was completely different than February and March of last year, when they were looking into an unknown. Now they're getting into the mystery and peeling back the layers of Iraqi society and figuring out whose shooting at them.
It's a very complex society that takes a while to integrate into and find a way of connecting the dots. Everyone is on a learning curve.
Back in the fall, I worked with different Army units and on a day to day basis, the army was pretty much a police action, going out every day looking for certain people, casing houses, on patrol, looking for all of the cards in the deck plus smaller people that were in neighborhoods and districts. They'd get enough information from local people. They'd go in, surround the house, opened up a lot of doors -- kicked in a lot of doors -- and had to learn very quickly.
This was the result of a police action. They had a tip that Fedayeen were operating on the outskirts of town. He is one of the leaders of a Fedayeen unit. They were cuffed and then taken away.
This person was rudely awakened, the bang on the door at 2:00 in the morning. We found nothing in the house, but they found weapons and money at another house two or three blocks away.
When I was in Baji outside the oil refinery there was a weapons depot that was one of five Saddam had. It was one mile by five miles. It was entirely full and the Americans were there blowing up twice a day 5,000 pounds at a shot and they were planning to be there for five years.
Prior to this, 99 percent of the forces had no battle experience, no shots fired at them in anger, and they lost innocence very quickly. They have very little contact with real daily life of the Iraqi culture.
There's a big security problem there, and there's a barrier that they never really cross until perhaps they leave. So there's a lot of thinking going on and a realization that they're going to have to be there for a while.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(NEWSBREAK)
LIN: Some U.S. soldiers who took part in Operation Iraqi Freedom last year are facing legal trouble. They're accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners.
CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six U.S. military personnel are now facing criminal charges for alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Kari (ph) prison in Baghdad, what was once a notorious torture facility under Saddam Hussein.
The charges include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts. Some 20 Iraqi prisoners are said to have been subjected to the abuse.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Even though it was a very small number of detainees involved, that's the kind of cancer that you've got to cut out quickly. And if there's a problem, you need to address it very, very rapidly.
STARR: Seventeen U.S. personnel were relieved of duty weeks ago, after General Ricardo Sanchez, head of coalition forces, personally ordered the investigation. Military sources tell CNN it is alleged the soldiers took pictures of Iraqis in detention. Sources they are told the pictures show Iraqis partially clothed and the soldiers posing next to prisoners.
KIMMITT: Geneva Convention, which is our guideline for that, specifically prohibits making detainees, making prisoners of war subject to public curiosity and humiliation. And so that's why we feel it's important that we follow the procedures and allow the ICRC in for routine investigation -- routine inspections, health, welfare, to assure that we're doing everything in accordance with Geneva Conventions.
STARR: CNN has learned that nine additional military personnel and two civilian employees are also facing severe administrative reprimands that could effectively end their careers.
(on camera): A battalion commander, a company commander, and the U.S. military commander of the prisoner certainly now facing questions military sources say about their fitness for command.
Barbara Starr, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Some little people who need a big helping hand. And the folks who are giving it to them. One woman does what she can to help the smallest ones affected by the war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: And now some news from around the world. In Kosovo, a tense calm. About 2,000 new NATO troops are there. They're helping more than 18,000 other peacekeepers impose a second day of order. Troops were dispatched after a sudden and fierce outbreak of ethnic violence.
This week's clashes between ethnic Albanians and Serbs led to more than two dozen people killed and hundreds more wounded. In Kuwait, Secretary of State Colin Powell says the U.S. is deeply concerned about allegations that money, meant to help the Iraqi people, ended up in the hands of Saddam Hussein. Powell says the U.S. will help with the United Nation's proposed investigation of the Oil for Food Program. Powell is wrapping his six day tour of Asia and the Middle East.
In Taiwan, a razor thin victory. A day after narrowly escaping an assassination attempt, Taiwan's president narrowly won re-election. It was a very tight race and the opposition candidate is challenging the results. He called the balloting unfair and is demanding a recount.
Meanwhile, a controversial referendum on beefing up defenses against China failed because not enough voters took part.
For each of the 500 plus troops who have died in Iraq, there are loved ones on the home front living with unimaginable loss. Volunteers are helping many of the children of those killed in Iraq. And the comfort comes one blanket at a time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARLEEN MARNLEY, PROJECT LINUS VOLUNTEER: I saw a picture of a little girl in the newspaper and she was saluting at her father's funeral. And it was one of the first soldiers that was killed in Afghanistan. And it just really dug to my heart. And so I talked with headquarters for Project Linus and asked if they would mind if I started to coordinate that effort. And they said that would be fine.
This is where I began. This is from the defense link, which is put out by the Department of Defense.
And I start searching for any news articles that might be out there, talking about the soldier, finding out if he had children or younger brothers and sisters. His father said he was a good son and a good father and he loved his family.
Each one brings new tears to your eyes because you know that there's another family that's missing somebody they loved a lot. The last thing she said to him was "Be careful there, hide your head." That was a week ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that teddy bear and that Christmas racket.
MARNLEY: A blanket is just warmth and comfort. And many children have a blanket that they never want to have mom wash. And they just want to hug it all the time. And it brings the security to them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twinkle, twinkle little star, how I wonder what you are...
MARY BELL, AUNT: You see him play with his blanket and you know, run around the house with the blanket wrapped around him. And so to see him happy, you know, that makes me happy. And I really appreciate the ladies because they didn't have to do that.
He says his dad is sleeping because that's, you know, I told him until he gets older and I explain the difference between life and death. He knows on occasion he'll see my crying. And he don't want me to cry -- he doesn't want me to be sad. He did the ultimate -- he sacrificed his life for him so that he can live in a free America, you know.
MARNLEY: Any time there is a child that just could use a hug and a blanket, Project Linus tries to be there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Well, that piece was produced and edited by CNN's very talented Brian Koziski (ph).
Fighting terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan, is it working? We're asking our guests about that. And the bin Laden factor, the U.S. wants him dead or alive, but will it reduce terrorism? That's right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Top stories this hour, two Yemeni men arrested, at least one of them a suspect in the October 2000 attack on the U.S.S. Cole. Thousands rally in New York and other cities against the war in Iraq. And the battle in Pakistan continues where al Qaeda's number two man may be holed up.
Checking some headlines now across America, Nevada is sending the man suspected of being the Columbus area sniper back to Ohio. Charles McCoy, Jr. waived extradition after his arrest Wednesday at a motel in Las Vegas.
In Baffle, Washington, a jury of 13 pastors is deliberating what to do about a colleague who married her lesbian partner last week in Oregon. Church law prohibits ordination of self-avowed practicing homosexuals. The Reverend Karen Damon (ph) is asking the church to look beyond the rules and do what she argues is right.
In Panama City, federal biologists believe they know what killed more than 65 dolphins in the panhandle. Preliminary tests point to a biotoxin released by naturally occurring algae.
Well, in light of the recent terrorist bombings in Madrid, we're taking another look at how effective the U.S. strategy is in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is it working to fight terrorism? Or is it fueling hatred and helping terrorist recruitment?
Scott Atran is a research director at the National Center for Scientific Research in Paris and an adjunct professor at the University of Michigan. Right now, he joins me from Ann Arbor.
Thank you very much, Scott, for being with us this evening.
SCOTT ATRAN, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Hello, Carol. LIN: Well this week, "The New York Times" wrote about the war on terror, that it's like Hercules' battle with Hydra. Every time one head is chopped off, two more appear. Is that an accurate assessment of the frustration in this war?
ATRAN: Yes, it is, but as I wrote in that "TIME" piece, it's even worse because now we're faced with a Hydra without a head. Basically in the last year, as we've pursued the war in Iraq, we've allowed this jihadist network to mutate to the point where now even bin Laden's demise wouldn't mean that much.
LIN: Well, wait a second. What do you mean mutate? I mean, the -- certainly the impression we have in this hunt for bin Laden is once you catch the big guy, and even his deputy who may be surrounded as we speak by Pakistani troops, once you catch the big guy, the war's over. Al Qaeda is finished.
ATRAN: Absolutely not. If you just look at the suicide bombings, for example, on the holy Shi'ite day of Ashra in Keta (ph) and Karbala and Baghdad, you'll notice that groups like Ansar Islam and Laskar Jangri (ph) and Jeshu Mohammed are coordinating strategic operations, perhaps tactical operations among themselves in a violently anti-Shi'ite campaign.
Now bin Laden himself had decided in the mid 1990s not to target Shi'ites. In fact, he praised the Shi'ite groups Saudi Hezbollah for the suicide bombing in Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia.
So these groups are striking out on their own, swarming in from scattered locations on multiple targets, and then disbursing only to form new swarms. And just operating in bin Laden's name is enough to increase recruitment and coordination.
LIN: Now you have a theory that U.S. forces or the United States not only, in order to battle these outside forces, not only has to think like them, they also have to act like them. What do you mean?
ATRAN: Well, it'd probably be a better idea to mimic their swarming tactics to use long mission, small rapid and mobile units, than to use the sort of top heavy, strategic bombardments, massive uses of force and occupation that not only does nothing except proliferate these organizations, but undermines popular support.
In fact, as the London based Institute of Strategic Studies indicates, our actions in Iraq have increased recruitment worldwide for anti-American jihad, and perversely impelled an already evasive transnational network to become harder to identify and neutralize.
You know, what you have portrayed, Scott, is something frightening indeed. Although the hunt for Saddam Hussein and now bin Laden, I think, is using that tactic of a small task force to do just that.
ATRAN: Well, now, after a year's hiatus, special forces on the ground are about at the level they were a year ago. But again, in the meantime, these networks have proliferated all over the world, and have become more decentralized.
LIN: And we're seeing the evidence of that. Thank you very much, Scott.
ATRAN: You're welcome.
LIN: Scott Atran.
Well, two eras in basketball. When we come back, we're going to look at the billions of dollars that will be gambled on March Madness hoops.
And then, back to a simpler time, Indiana basketball in the '50s. That's the 1950s and that famous last shot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Mention March Madness, and basketball fans perk up. But college basketball's annual championship tournament has a darker side. It's a gambler's dream, where billions of dollars are up for grabs. And that can be the NCAA's worst nightmare.
Our Julie Vallese reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JULIE VALLESE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There are more than 1,800 Web sites on the Internet, looking to get a piece of the $3.5 billion expected to be bet on this year's NCAA tournament.
KEITH WHYTE, EX. DIR. NATL. COUNCIL ON PROBLEM GAMBLING: You can't get high on credit, but you can gamble thousands -- tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars of money that you don't actually have.
VALLESE: One hundred twenty nine teams, 127 games, and millions of fans betting billions on the men's and women's NCAA Division I tournament. A bracket and a handshake? That's OK. But exchange money, and unless you're in Nevada, it's illegal.
BILL SAUM, NCAA: The NCAA's opposed to all sports wagering, illegal and legal. We certainly are -- ruled states that we cannot wager on pro or college. It's the whole element of dealing with the bookie, the element of getting in over your head.
VALLESE: The madness in March is now the most watched and bet on sports event in the country. That's because it's easier than ever. Not only can gamblers use the Internet, but they can access Web sites on their cell phone to place bets.
The NCAA isn't sitting on the bench watching money exchange hands. Instead, they're taking action to make sure betting doesn't influence the game.
SAUM: We do background checks on our referees who officiate the men's and women's March Madness tournament. We spend time with the Final Four participants on the Friday before the game.
VALLESE: They're also trying to educate the public most betting is illegal, with the hopes the biggest payoff will be just as many people addicted to the sport and fewer addicted to gambling.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Just to show you how far reaching the betting goes, Chief Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist has a wager on the tournament. He bet talk show host Charlie Rose $5 that his alma mater, Stanford, would stay in the playoffs longer than Duke.
I know money changed hands, but it is quite revealing. Well, from gambling worries to a much simpler time, whether you like basketball or not, you've probably heard of "Hoosiers." The movie portrays a Cinderella team at the Indiana State High School championship and the last second shots that made them heroes.
LIN: Oh, that movie was inspired by actual events that occurred 50 years ago today. Bobby Plump and his teammates tasted glory when he made the winning shot for Mylan High School. Bobby Plump is on the telephone line with us from San Antonio, Texas.
As we speak, Bobby, that was the shot of the movie. It must be amazing to see Hollywood's version of it. But we want to share the actual moment. Check this out. And I know that you can see it for yourself, too.
BOBBY PLUMP, HIGH SCHOOL HERO: Yes, I can.
LIN: There you are. Bring back those memories for me when you can.
PLUMP: Well, you know, it's amazing. That shot that Jimmy just made, other than the fact that it went in, the differences are he's much better looking than I am and he had a lot better form.
LIN: Oh.
PLUMP: See how that works? But I'm sure glad it went in. I've seen this a few times. I don't want to watch it too much. I'm afraid it might not go in. The dream might end, right? It's only been 50 years.
LIN: Fifty years. What is it like for your life to be defined by what, a matter of seconds, two seconds? This is who you are. This is what you'll always be.
PLUMP: Well, it's part of my life. I hope my whole life isn't defined by the final 18 seconds or the final three seconds and hitting your shot. There are a lot more important things that happen in my life than that.
But from an instantaneous thrill, there is nothing that has been in my life that compares to this. There's been a lot more important things happen in my life, but not from instantaneous thrill. And it is -- it's just to me -- it's a marvel and it's a privilege that people would remember, after 50 years, and here I'm talking with you about something that happened 50 years ago...
LIN: Yes.
PLUMP: ...and it was a simpler time. And we just had a great, great time.
LIN: Yes, what do you make then of today's NBA? I mean, you have a kid like LeBron James and many others, who decide to -- make the leap from high school all the way to the pros, skipping their college education. And why wouldn't LeBron James do that? I mean, he went into the NBA with $100 million in contracts.
PLUMP: I was going to say I've heard people say well, they shouldn't do that. They should get an education. You can buy one, you know? $100 million -- I -- it is great that they're capable of doing that. Their physical ability is just magnificent.
The problem, if there is a problem that ever comes up with it, I don't think it's a physical ability they had. It's a mental ability to be able to handle it, but I think he had handled it extremely well.
And I'm very happy for all of those. If you were offered $100 million out of high school, you'd probably take it, wouldn't you?
LIN: Probably. But you instead...
PLUMP: You might not have to think about it a great deal of times...
LIN: Yes. You instead -- you went into the restaurant business.
PLUMP: I do have a restaurant in Indianapolis. It's in the Broad Ripple area of Indianapolis. And we studied for a long, long time. And we finally came up with a name. I'm not exactly sure where we got it, but we call it Plump's last shot.
LIN: Oh, gee. Wonder where that came from?
PLUMP: I don't know. It's -- you know, we're not real original and things.
LIN: Yes.
PLUMP: But people would come back, bring your cameras because it's kind of a mini museum that we have in there.
LIN: What's the winning plate there?
PLUMP: Well, the winning plate is all the food that we have. But breaded tenderloin is the number one seller that we have. And that's great in the Midwest. Everybody loves it. It's been voted number one in Indianapolis. We have great grouper, great salad.
LIN: OK. PLUMP: And other sandwiches.
LIN: Now we know when we ask Bobby Plump where's the beef, when it comes to making history, we know it's in Indianapolis. Thanks so much, Bobby Plump.
PLUMP: You, too. I'll be looking forward to seeing you at the restaurant.
LIN: OK, thank you very much for sharing a legacy, too. That's it for us. Coming up next, "THE CAPITAL GANG." At 8:00 Eastern, "CNN PRESENTS: WAR STORIES FROM THE FRONTLINES." On the one year anniversary of the war in Iraq, CNN's correspondents recount their experiences on the frontlines.
At 9:00, Larry King talks to Rock Hudson's ex-wife Phyllis Gates, who takes us inside the secret life of the Hollywood legend. And then at 10:00 Eastern, please don't forget to join me on "CNN SATURDAY NIGHT." Is life better now with Saddam out and U.S. soldiers in charge? We're going to have a special on our show tonight, a closer look at the lives touched tonight at 10:00 Eastern.
Right now, Mark Shields with a quick look at what's coming up on "THE CAPITAL GANG." Hi, Mark.
MARK SHIELDS, HOST, CAPITAL GANG: Carol, "THE CAPITAL GANG" looks at the first anniversary of war in Iraq. Bush versus Kerry heating up and cooking the books on Medicare costs.
Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank and formal presidential candidate Howard Dean join the gang. All that and much more right here next on CNN.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Invasion of Iraq; Day Five of al Qaeda/Pakistani Forces Battle>
Aired March 20, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Carol Lin, and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
We begin in New York. It's one of several cities around the world filled with anti-war protesters. They're marking the first anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.
CNN's Adaora Udoji joins us now from the Big Apple, where thousands of people, Adaora, hit the streets today.
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol.
It's coming to an end here on the east side of Manhattan, and as you said there were thousands of people today. It came to an orderly end, to what was an orderly and very peaceful march today.
Thousands and thousands of people marching. No official numbers yet. The NYPD sources telling us they're thinking around 40,000 people, but organizers insist it was more like 100,000 people.
Whatever the case, the rally, and there was a march, was put together today by a group called Unity for Peace and Justice. A very diverse group, from labor unions to student groups to other sorts of groups. They came today to protest the U.S. presence in Iraq. They say the United States should pull out, that troops should be sent home.
There were about 2 dozen speakers including Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, also of course the Ohio U.S. representative who has been highly critical of the war.
Among the other groups that showed up, again, like I said, there were members from labor unions. There were local politicians. There was also a group of military families. They were coming to show how much they oppose the war. And we spoke to many. Thousands came from all over the region, from Boston, from as far away as Washington, and we talked to many of them and asked them why they felt it was so important to come today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm outraged by this administration and they've sent our men to war, and there was no danger from Iraq. They said that there were weapons of mass destruction and there are none. They said there were chemical and biological weapons and there are none. They said there were ties to al Qaeda and there are none.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And people are still dying, and we just felt it was very important to be here and express our outrage at the policies of our government that think that killing is a way to make peace. It doesn't make any sense to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UDOJI: Now the organizers, United For Peace and Justice, said that today they planned over 250 rallies across the country. They say the gatherings are meant to send a message that in this election year, they plan to be very active -- Carol.
LIN: Clearly. Thank you very much, Adaora Udoji, in New York.
There were several anti-war protests around the globe. In Cairo, Egypt, demonstrators burned U.S. flags as riot police kept a close watch. In Rome, protesters set off colorful smoke flares at the residence of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. They also demanded Italy withdraw its 2,600 troops from Iraq.
Rome's was the biggest rally by far. Police said it drew 1/4- million people.
And wet weather didn't keep protesters away in Tokyo. Some wore shopping bags with anti-war emblems over their heads to shield themselves from the rain.
And now we move on to a pitch battle in Pakistan. It is day five of that fierce battle along the country's border with Afghanistan. Pakistani forces continue their assault on suspected al Qaeda fighters holed up in about eight compounds, but officials are now less certain about the identity of a, quote, "high value target" the militants are thought to be protecting.
Is it al Qaeda's second in command as first suggested? Or is it someone else?
CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson joins us now by telephone. He is in Islamabad.
Ken, what do you know about what's happening along the border?
KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATL. SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Carol, as you stated, Pakistani military officials in Waziristan raised doubts on March 20 as to the identity of the high value target. They had spoken with CNN on the previous three days and members of the intelligence services and general officers felt they were certain that this possibly would be Ayman al-Zawahiri at the compound.
The battles have been intermittent because the Pakistani military originally tried to prevent collateral damage on civilians and there have been several times at night when the battles have stopped and because of the geographical areas involved on these seven compounds, it's likely that, by the way they defended themselves and they prepared their defenses, that they may have also prepared an escape route.
Now this is a very tough geographical areas to try to cordon off. In this part of the world, you just don't corner anybody. You do the best you can.
LIN: I mean, there are back roads, there are donkey trails through canyons. How much military support or high technology does the Pakistani military have in this battle to try to track people down if they do try to escape?
ROBINSON: The Pakistani government enjoys first-world technology because they're receiving support from the United States government and as well many of their military officers have trained in our schools in the West. Predator drones, the thermal imaging Joint Stars, which does moving target indicators in that areas, enabling military personnel to distinguish between the movement of vehicles and the movement of personnel, like donkey trails.
But however, there is an enormous amount of analysis required and an enormous amount of just gut checks on what we're looking at because there are displaced persons moving around the area and it's hard to distinguish between them and the foreign fighters in the areas.
CNN's Nic Robertson went up there and was able to lay eyes on it earlier today, and he was not able to get close enough to where the actual fighting occurred to be able to provide an independent eyes-on report of what the Pakistani military was telling us.
LIN: What made anyone believe that Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's deputy, was even in that area?
ROBINSON: Two things stared that, Carol. The first was the ferocious nature of the fighting. Normally, these fighters in this area, when they are contacted by government forces tend to melt away into the mountainside. They don't tend to stand their ground. But in these several geographically separated areas, they tended to close ranks and fight.
The second was a large armored car and two security cars tried to break away during the initial contact, and then it was repelled and moved back into the compound.
And third, prisoners which were taken at the time were interrogated and those prisoners that were interrogated said that Ayman al-Zawahiri was in one of the compounds.
LIN: All right. Well, a large area that those troops have to cover, some 19 square miles.
Thank you very much, Ken Robinson, checking in with us from Islamabad.
Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri are the subjects of today's PEOPLE IN THE NEWS. Don't miss it. That is at 5:00 p.m. Eastern.
Iraqis are greeting the war's first anniversary with a sense of wariness. Much has improved with the fall of Saddam Hussein, but there are lingering problems. Chief among them, security.
Our Jim Clancy talked to an Iraqi doctor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Baghdad awoke to clear skies and bright sunshine where a year earlier the smoke from coalition bombs choked the air.
Two Black Hawk helicopters glided above the Tigris River, whirling past the former palace of Saddam Hussein. One year has brought real change, but in many ways Iraq's 25 million people are still waiting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to think only of how to start a new page. That's the most important now. The new page has not been started yet.
CLANCY: Dr. Razika Al-Abadi (ph) is a hematologist who works with children. She went from earning less than $2 a month before the war to hundreds of dollars a month today. The problem, she can't enjoy it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot go to a restaurant. I cannot go to the market. I cannot have some enjoyment with my friends anywhere. We are afraid to go alone. Even with our families. Even I am afraid for my brothers. This is the main problem now.
CLANCY: The main problem a year after the war to liberate Iraq is security. Dr. Razika (ph) fears things could get worse before they get any better. An enthusiastic new member of Iraq's Civil Defense Corps predicts two more years are needed to deliver on the promise of a new Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and we need more power, more equipment and more people coming for us here to join with the ICDC to make us more and more power. That's needed at this time.
CLANCY: Time is needed not just for security but to change the mentality here. Dr. Razika (ph) says one of the most important changes she has seen is the arrival of Internet centers where ordinary Iraqis can do what they never did before, gather information on the global Internet, or that's what she thought.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Once I went to an Internet center. They didn't allow me because I'm not wearing a hijab in the city.
CLANCY: What Iraqi society needs in her view is not just security but mutual respect. What good is freedom if it gives some the right to dictate the rules to others.
(on camera): Dr. Razika (ph) and most other Iraqis say there is no doubt that it is better Saddam Hussein is gone, but one year later, uncertainties in both politics and security still cloud their hopes for the future.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Six U.S. soldiers are charged with cruelty to Iraqi prisoners. Barbara Starr reports on the other charges in the allegations.
And President Bush was on the road today, guess where, Florida. Know why? We're going to tell you in just a minute.
And it's been 50 years since a little Indiana high school basketball team won its state's championship. You know the story. It's the movie, "Hoosiers." Bobby Plump, the player who made the last second winning shot, is going to be our guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Top stories this hour.
Two Yemeni men arrested, at least one of them a suspect on the October 2000 attack on the USS Cole. Thousands rally in New York and other cities against the war in Iraq. And the battle in Pakistan continues, where al Qaeda's No. 2 man may be holed up.
The campaign to reelect President Bush is officially off and running. More than 10,000 cheering supporters heard Mr. Bush defend his record and blast his opponent at a Florida kickoff rally today.
More from White House correspondent Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Where else would the president hold his debut campaign rally, but the Sunshine State? Make that the recount state.
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: Here in Florida and Orlando, because that's where we wanted it to be.
BASH: With his wife and governor brother to warm up a crowd that didn't need warming, Mr. Bush tossed his 12,000 supporters a little red meat about his Democratic opponent.
BUSH: The other day here in Florida, he claimed some important endorsements from overseas. He won't tell us the name of the foreign admirers. That's OK. Either way, I'm not too worried because I'm going to keep my campaign right here in America.
BASH: After a week of whacking Senator John Kerry on national security, the president turned to the home front, stepped up attacks on taxes.
BUSH: Over the years, he's voted over 350 times for higher taxes on the American people. It's pretty clear how he's going to fill the tax gap. He's going to tax all of you.
BASH: A Kerry spokesman shot back, "John Kerry has fought for middle class tax relief and proposed new middle class tax cuts in this campaign."
It was a fall-like event on the first day of spring, jam packed convention hall complete with multicolored lights, screaming fans, designed to show the president as rock star and to show the world the Bush machine has turned on the switch.
The president won Florida and the White House after the Supreme Court stopped the recount with him ahead 537 votes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we learned some lessons in 2000. A lot of work has been put into the grassroots in Florida. I think it's going to pay off
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And there was an aggressive grassroots effort in full force after that rally. Hundreds of volunteers went out to knock on doors, cell phones were distributed to phone banks. The campaign's goal was to contact 38,000 voters in Florida to register them and to recruit them -- Carol.
LIN: Still, Dana, the events unfolding in Iraq and the battles there, the continuing suicide bombings there, still are dogging the president, and I'm wondering, you know, even after the French foreign minister yesterday said that the Iraqi War is making the world a more dangerous place, the president continues to campaign on his wartime credentials.
What is the logic behind that?
BASH: Well, the logic behind that is that when campaign officials look at the polls, they see that the president's perhaps top asset is perhaps his war credentials, specifically, though on the war on terrorism, and that is why you hear the president talking about that time and time again.
In his campaign ads he talked about steady leadership and times have changed. That's the tag line. There's a reason for it. It's because of those polls.
It's also interesting to remember, yesterday in the president's speech, he was speaking to allies, more than 80 of them, linking the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism and the big reason for that is because of the support for the war on terrorism, not so much support for the war in Iraq -- Carol.
LIN: Got you. Thank you very much, Dana Bash, live at the White House.
We're going to continue on this subject here. Obviously terrorism has been an issue in the presidential race, but campaigning around it is tricky as the recent flap over the 9/11 images in President Bush's ads clearly shows.
So we're going to go to Washington for some thoughts on that, from CNN political analyst and "LA Times" correspondent Ron Brownstein and Michael Gordon of the "Economist."
Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us tonight.
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LA TIMES": Hi, Carol.
LIN: Ron, what do you make of what Dana Bash was just saying, in terms of the Bush campaign strategy to link both the war on terror and the war in Iraq. Can that be troublesome for the president?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, she's exactly right that there is a distinction in public opinion in the way voters assess the president's job on terror, has been very high since 9/11. On Iraq, it's more equivocal. The ratings, one poll came out last week with most people -- a plurality of people -- saying they disapprove of the way he's handling Iraq. That's been much more contingent on events, how things are going in Iraq.
So it's clearly in the president's interest to argue that Iraq is a front in the war on terror.
The Democratic case, expressed most clearly by Wesley Clark, perhaps, was that this is a distraction in the war on terror. John Kerry doesn't put it quite so unequivocally, but he does argue that the president's policy there, the president's course, has isolated us from our allies, imposed too many costs on Americans in terms of both financial and lives.
So Iraq is a much more contested battlefield in this campaign than the president's management of the war on terror.
LIN: Michael, already Spain's prime minister-elect is threatening to pull the Spanish troops out of the coalition effort in Iraq. What sort of an impact do you think this might have on the U.S. presidential campaign?
MICHAEL GORDON, "THE ECONOMIST": Well, Carol, I guess to the extent that Americans really pay attention to elections overseas is really going to decide this. And traditionally, as all Americans know, is that Americans have traditionally not paid all that much attention to elections overseas.
But be that as it may, it certainly plays into the hands of the Democrats, who are clearly saying that the United States has burned its bridges overseas and that its unilateralism has alienated a lot of our traditional allies.
But in doing so, I think John Kerry and the Democrats have to be particularly careful in really how they approach this. Any mention of terrorism always plays into the hands of the Republicans and the Bush administration. And even though John Kerry has proven quite popular in quite a number of policy areas, such as education and health care, his largest weak spot is on terrorism and security. And furthermore, a lot of Mr. Bush's backers are saying, well, once again, you have to look out for No. 1, and that even allies overseas, such as Spain or Britain, really cannot in the long-run protect us.
LIN: Ron, I'm just wondering, John Kerry is also walking a fine line too in his campaign. I mean, after al Qaeda has taken credit for the Spanish train bombings, John Kerry has to be careful not to be too critical of the president and not to give any confirmation to al Qaeda that they could have any effect by doing something similar right here in the United States...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWNSTEIN: And in fact he has been very cautious.
As Michael said, you could -- Democrats could certainly use the Spanish election as evidence in their argument that the president's policies are driving away traditional allies. We know have governments elected in Spain in Germany in the last two years, both essentially on platforms of establishing distance with the United States.
But I fact, Kerry has been very cautious and his aides have been very cautious about using Spain in any way in the election, I think largely because there is a point of view in America that says at least part of the result was driven by a desire to in effect negotiate a separate peace with terrorists, and that is not an impulse that any American politician or political leader wants to get close with.
So in fact they have downplayed Spain much more than you might have expected, given the kind of result that we saw.
LIN: All right. The campaign is still very early.
Thank you very much, Michael Gordon, Ron Brownstein.
GORDON: You're welcome.
LIN: Well, a "Time" magazine photographer looks back at a year in pictures in Iraq.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Words like aggression, adrenaline and concentration are not normally the subjects of photographs, unless they're shot in Iraq.
CNN checked in with "Time" photographer Bob Nikelsberg over the past year. He was embedded with the U.S. Marines during the war. On this anniversary, he reflects on what he has seen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB NIKELSBERG, PHOTOGRAPHER (voice-over): I was with the 3rd Battalion 4th Marines from 29 Palms, California in Kuwait in 2003 and January, and went all the way to Baghdad with them until mid-April. They're known a very aggressive infantry and that's really what they were trained to do, over and over again. Sort of muscle memory, they call it. The amount of adrenaline and motivation that was visible, you could taste it.
The concentration and the focus was completely different than February and March of last year, when they were looking into an unknown. Now they're getting into the mystery and peeling back the layers of Iraqi society and figuring out whose shooting at them.
It's a very complex society that takes a while to integrate into and find a way of connecting the dots. Everyone is on a learning curve.
Back in the fall, I worked with different Army units and on a day to day basis, the army was pretty much a police action, going out every day looking for certain people, casing houses, on patrol, looking for all of the cards in the deck plus smaller people that were in neighborhoods and districts. They'd get enough information from local people. They'd go in, surround the house, opened up a lot of doors -- kicked in a lot of doors -- and had to learn very quickly.
This was the result of a police action. They had a tip that Fedayeen were operating on the outskirts of town. He is one of the leaders of a Fedayeen unit. They were cuffed and then taken away.
This person was rudely awakened, the bang on the door at 2:00 in the morning. We found nothing in the house, but they found weapons and money at another house two or three blocks away.
When I was in Baji outside the oil refinery there was a weapons depot that was one of five Saddam had. It was one mile by five miles. It was entirely full and the Americans were there blowing up twice a day 5,000 pounds at a shot and they were planning to be there for five years.
Prior to this, 99 percent of the forces had no battle experience, no shots fired at them in anger, and they lost innocence very quickly. They have very little contact with real daily life of the Iraqi culture.
There's a big security problem there, and there's a barrier that they never really cross until perhaps they leave. So there's a lot of thinking going on and a realization that they're going to have to be there for a while.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(NEWSBREAK)
LIN: Some U.S. soldiers who took part in Operation Iraqi Freedom last year are facing legal trouble. They're accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners.
CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six U.S. military personnel are now facing criminal charges for alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Kari (ph) prison in Baghdad, what was once a notorious torture facility under Saddam Hussein.
The charges include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts. Some 20 Iraqi prisoners are said to have been subjected to the abuse.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Even though it was a very small number of detainees involved, that's the kind of cancer that you've got to cut out quickly. And if there's a problem, you need to address it very, very rapidly.
STARR: Seventeen U.S. personnel were relieved of duty weeks ago, after General Ricardo Sanchez, head of coalition forces, personally ordered the investigation. Military sources tell CNN it is alleged the soldiers took pictures of Iraqis in detention. Sources they are told the pictures show Iraqis partially clothed and the soldiers posing next to prisoners.
KIMMITT: Geneva Convention, which is our guideline for that, specifically prohibits making detainees, making prisoners of war subject to public curiosity and humiliation. And so that's why we feel it's important that we follow the procedures and allow the ICRC in for routine investigation -- routine inspections, health, welfare, to assure that we're doing everything in accordance with Geneva Conventions.
STARR: CNN has learned that nine additional military personnel and two civilian employees are also facing severe administrative reprimands that could effectively end their careers.
(on camera): A battalion commander, a company commander, and the U.S. military commander of the prisoner certainly now facing questions military sources say about their fitness for command.
Barbara Starr, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Some little people who need a big helping hand. And the folks who are giving it to them. One woman does what she can to help the smallest ones affected by the war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: And now some news from around the world. In Kosovo, a tense calm. About 2,000 new NATO troops are there. They're helping more than 18,000 other peacekeepers impose a second day of order. Troops were dispatched after a sudden and fierce outbreak of ethnic violence.
This week's clashes between ethnic Albanians and Serbs led to more than two dozen people killed and hundreds more wounded. In Kuwait, Secretary of State Colin Powell says the U.S. is deeply concerned about allegations that money, meant to help the Iraqi people, ended up in the hands of Saddam Hussein. Powell says the U.S. will help with the United Nation's proposed investigation of the Oil for Food Program. Powell is wrapping his six day tour of Asia and the Middle East.
In Taiwan, a razor thin victory. A day after narrowly escaping an assassination attempt, Taiwan's president narrowly won re-election. It was a very tight race and the opposition candidate is challenging the results. He called the balloting unfair and is demanding a recount.
Meanwhile, a controversial referendum on beefing up defenses against China failed because not enough voters took part.
For each of the 500 plus troops who have died in Iraq, there are loved ones on the home front living with unimaginable loss. Volunteers are helping many of the children of those killed in Iraq. And the comfort comes one blanket at a time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARLEEN MARNLEY, PROJECT LINUS VOLUNTEER: I saw a picture of a little girl in the newspaper and she was saluting at her father's funeral. And it was one of the first soldiers that was killed in Afghanistan. And it just really dug to my heart. And so I talked with headquarters for Project Linus and asked if they would mind if I started to coordinate that effort. And they said that would be fine.
This is where I began. This is from the defense link, which is put out by the Department of Defense.
And I start searching for any news articles that might be out there, talking about the soldier, finding out if he had children or younger brothers and sisters. His father said he was a good son and a good father and he loved his family.
Each one brings new tears to your eyes because you know that there's another family that's missing somebody they loved a lot. The last thing she said to him was "Be careful there, hide your head." That was a week ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that teddy bear and that Christmas racket.
MARNLEY: A blanket is just warmth and comfort. And many children have a blanket that they never want to have mom wash. And they just want to hug it all the time. And it brings the security to them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twinkle, twinkle little star, how I wonder what you are...
MARY BELL, AUNT: You see him play with his blanket and you know, run around the house with the blanket wrapped around him. And so to see him happy, you know, that makes me happy. And I really appreciate the ladies because they didn't have to do that.
He says his dad is sleeping because that's, you know, I told him until he gets older and I explain the difference between life and death. He knows on occasion he'll see my crying. And he don't want me to cry -- he doesn't want me to be sad. He did the ultimate -- he sacrificed his life for him so that he can live in a free America, you know.
MARNLEY: Any time there is a child that just could use a hug and a blanket, Project Linus tries to be there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Well, that piece was produced and edited by CNN's very talented Brian Koziski (ph).
Fighting terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan, is it working? We're asking our guests about that. And the bin Laden factor, the U.S. wants him dead or alive, but will it reduce terrorism? That's right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Top stories this hour, two Yemeni men arrested, at least one of them a suspect in the October 2000 attack on the U.S.S. Cole. Thousands rally in New York and other cities against the war in Iraq. And the battle in Pakistan continues where al Qaeda's number two man may be holed up.
Checking some headlines now across America, Nevada is sending the man suspected of being the Columbus area sniper back to Ohio. Charles McCoy, Jr. waived extradition after his arrest Wednesday at a motel in Las Vegas.
In Baffle, Washington, a jury of 13 pastors is deliberating what to do about a colleague who married her lesbian partner last week in Oregon. Church law prohibits ordination of self-avowed practicing homosexuals. The Reverend Karen Damon (ph) is asking the church to look beyond the rules and do what she argues is right.
In Panama City, federal biologists believe they know what killed more than 65 dolphins in the panhandle. Preliminary tests point to a biotoxin released by naturally occurring algae.
Well, in light of the recent terrorist bombings in Madrid, we're taking another look at how effective the U.S. strategy is in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is it working to fight terrorism? Or is it fueling hatred and helping terrorist recruitment?
Scott Atran is a research director at the National Center for Scientific Research in Paris and an adjunct professor at the University of Michigan. Right now, he joins me from Ann Arbor.
Thank you very much, Scott, for being with us this evening.
SCOTT ATRAN, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Hello, Carol. LIN: Well this week, "The New York Times" wrote about the war on terror, that it's like Hercules' battle with Hydra. Every time one head is chopped off, two more appear. Is that an accurate assessment of the frustration in this war?
ATRAN: Yes, it is, but as I wrote in that "TIME" piece, it's even worse because now we're faced with a Hydra without a head. Basically in the last year, as we've pursued the war in Iraq, we've allowed this jihadist network to mutate to the point where now even bin Laden's demise wouldn't mean that much.
LIN: Well, wait a second. What do you mean mutate? I mean, the -- certainly the impression we have in this hunt for bin Laden is once you catch the big guy, and even his deputy who may be surrounded as we speak by Pakistani troops, once you catch the big guy, the war's over. Al Qaeda is finished.
ATRAN: Absolutely not. If you just look at the suicide bombings, for example, on the holy Shi'ite day of Ashra in Keta (ph) and Karbala and Baghdad, you'll notice that groups like Ansar Islam and Laskar Jangri (ph) and Jeshu Mohammed are coordinating strategic operations, perhaps tactical operations among themselves in a violently anti-Shi'ite campaign.
Now bin Laden himself had decided in the mid 1990s not to target Shi'ites. In fact, he praised the Shi'ite groups Saudi Hezbollah for the suicide bombing in Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia.
So these groups are striking out on their own, swarming in from scattered locations on multiple targets, and then disbursing only to form new swarms. And just operating in bin Laden's name is enough to increase recruitment and coordination.
LIN: Now you have a theory that U.S. forces or the United States not only, in order to battle these outside forces, not only has to think like them, they also have to act like them. What do you mean?
ATRAN: Well, it'd probably be a better idea to mimic their swarming tactics to use long mission, small rapid and mobile units, than to use the sort of top heavy, strategic bombardments, massive uses of force and occupation that not only does nothing except proliferate these organizations, but undermines popular support.
In fact, as the London based Institute of Strategic Studies indicates, our actions in Iraq have increased recruitment worldwide for anti-American jihad, and perversely impelled an already evasive transnational network to become harder to identify and neutralize.
You know, what you have portrayed, Scott, is something frightening indeed. Although the hunt for Saddam Hussein and now bin Laden, I think, is using that tactic of a small task force to do just that.
ATRAN: Well, now, after a year's hiatus, special forces on the ground are about at the level they were a year ago. But again, in the meantime, these networks have proliferated all over the world, and have become more decentralized.
LIN: And we're seeing the evidence of that. Thank you very much, Scott.
ATRAN: You're welcome.
LIN: Scott Atran.
Well, two eras in basketball. When we come back, we're going to look at the billions of dollars that will be gambled on March Madness hoops.
And then, back to a simpler time, Indiana basketball in the '50s. That's the 1950s and that famous last shot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Mention March Madness, and basketball fans perk up. But college basketball's annual championship tournament has a darker side. It's a gambler's dream, where billions of dollars are up for grabs. And that can be the NCAA's worst nightmare.
Our Julie Vallese reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JULIE VALLESE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There are more than 1,800 Web sites on the Internet, looking to get a piece of the $3.5 billion expected to be bet on this year's NCAA tournament.
KEITH WHYTE, EX. DIR. NATL. COUNCIL ON PROBLEM GAMBLING: You can't get high on credit, but you can gamble thousands -- tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars of money that you don't actually have.
VALLESE: One hundred twenty nine teams, 127 games, and millions of fans betting billions on the men's and women's NCAA Division I tournament. A bracket and a handshake? That's OK. But exchange money, and unless you're in Nevada, it's illegal.
BILL SAUM, NCAA: The NCAA's opposed to all sports wagering, illegal and legal. We certainly are -- ruled states that we cannot wager on pro or college. It's the whole element of dealing with the bookie, the element of getting in over your head.
VALLESE: The madness in March is now the most watched and bet on sports event in the country. That's because it's easier than ever. Not only can gamblers use the Internet, but they can access Web sites on their cell phone to place bets.
The NCAA isn't sitting on the bench watching money exchange hands. Instead, they're taking action to make sure betting doesn't influence the game.
SAUM: We do background checks on our referees who officiate the men's and women's March Madness tournament. We spend time with the Final Four participants on the Friday before the game.
VALLESE: They're also trying to educate the public most betting is illegal, with the hopes the biggest payoff will be just as many people addicted to the sport and fewer addicted to gambling.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Just to show you how far reaching the betting goes, Chief Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist has a wager on the tournament. He bet talk show host Charlie Rose $5 that his alma mater, Stanford, would stay in the playoffs longer than Duke.
I know money changed hands, but it is quite revealing. Well, from gambling worries to a much simpler time, whether you like basketball or not, you've probably heard of "Hoosiers." The movie portrays a Cinderella team at the Indiana State High School championship and the last second shots that made them heroes.
LIN: Oh, that movie was inspired by actual events that occurred 50 years ago today. Bobby Plump and his teammates tasted glory when he made the winning shot for Mylan High School. Bobby Plump is on the telephone line with us from San Antonio, Texas.
As we speak, Bobby, that was the shot of the movie. It must be amazing to see Hollywood's version of it. But we want to share the actual moment. Check this out. And I know that you can see it for yourself, too.
BOBBY PLUMP, HIGH SCHOOL HERO: Yes, I can.
LIN: There you are. Bring back those memories for me when you can.
PLUMP: Well, you know, it's amazing. That shot that Jimmy just made, other than the fact that it went in, the differences are he's much better looking than I am and he had a lot better form.
LIN: Oh.
PLUMP: See how that works? But I'm sure glad it went in. I've seen this a few times. I don't want to watch it too much. I'm afraid it might not go in. The dream might end, right? It's only been 50 years.
LIN: Fifty years. What is it like for your life to be defined by what, a matter of seconds, two seconds? This is who you are. This is what you'll always be.
PLUMP: Well, it's part of my life. I hope my whole life isn't defined by the final 18 seconds or the final three seconds and hitting your shot. There are a lot more important things that happen in my life than that.
But from an instantaneous thrill, there is nothing that has been in my life that compares to this. There's been a lot more important things happen in my life, but not from instantaneous thrill. And it is -- it's just to me -- it's a marvel and it's a privilege that people would remember, after 50 years, and here I'm talking with you about something that happened 50 years ago...
LIN: Yes.
PLUMP: ...and it was a simpler time. And we just had a great, great time.
LIN: Yes, what do you make then of today's NBA? I mean, you have a kid like LeBron James and many others, who decide to -- make the leap from high school all the way to the pros, skipping their college education. And why wouldn't LeBron James do that? I mean, he went into the NBA with $100 million in contracts.
PLUMP: I was going to say I've heard people say well, they shouldn't do that. They should get an education. You can buy one, you know? $100 million -- I -- it is great that they're capable of doing that. Their physical ability is just magnificent.
The problem, if there is a problem that ever comes up with it, I don't think it's a physical ability they had. It's a mental ability to be able to handle it, but I think he had handled it extremely well.
And I'm very happy for all of those. If you were offered $100 million out of high school, you'd probably take it, wouldn't you?
LIN: Probably. But you instead...
PLUMP: You might not have to think about it a great deal of times...
LIN: Yes. You instead -- you went into the restaurant business.
PLUMP: I do have a restaurant in Indianapolis. It's in the Broad Ripple area of Indianapolis. And we studied for a long, long time. And we finally came up with a name. I'm not exactly sure where we got it, but we call it Plump's last shot.
LIN: Oh, gee. Wonder where that came from?
PLUMP: I don't know. It's -- you know, we're not real original and things.
LIN: Yes.
PLUMP: But people would come back, bring your cameras because it's kind of a mini museum that we have in there.
LIN: What's the winning plate there?
PLUMP: Well, the winning plate is all the food that we have. But breaded tenderloin is the number one seller that we have. And that's great in the Midwest. Everybody loves it. It's been voted number one in Indianapolis. We have great grouper, great salad.
LIN: OK. PLUMP: And other sandwiches.
LIN: Now we know when we ask Bobby Plump where's the beef, when it comes to making history, we know it's in Indianapolis. Thanks so much, Bobby Plump.
PLUMP: You, too. I'll be looking forward to seeing you at the restaurant.
LIN: OK, thank you very much for sharing a legacy, too. That's it for us. Coming up next, "THE CAPITAL GANG." At 8:00 Eastern, "CNN PRESENTS: WAR STORIES FROM THE FRONTLINES." On the one year anniversary of the war in Iraq, CNN's correspondents recount their experiences on the frontlines.
At 9:00, Larry King talks to Rock Hudson's ex-wife Phyllis Gates, who takes us inside the secret life of the Hollywood legend. And then at 10:00 Eastern, please don't forget to join me on "CNN SATURDAY NIGHT." Is life better now with Saddam out and U.S. soldiers in charge? We're going to have a special on our show tonight, a closer look at the lives touched tonight at 10:00 Eastern.
Right now, Mark Shields with a quick look at what's coming up on "THE CAPITAL GANG." Hi, Mark.
MARK SHIELDS, HOST, CAPITAL GANG: Carol, "THE CAPITAL GANG" looks at the first anniversary of war in Iraq. Bush versus Kerry heating up and cooking the books on Medicare costs.
Massachusetts Congressman Barney Frank and formal presidential candidate Howard Dean join the gang. All that and much more right here next on CNN.
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Invasion of Iraq; Day Five of al Qaeda/Pakistani Forces Battle>
