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CNN Live Saturday
Medical Costs Higher For Uninsured; Republicans Want Richard Clarke Testimony Declassified; Interview With Richard Ben-Veniste
Aired March 27, 2004 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is 12:00 in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. I'm Fredricka Whitfield at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Ahead this hour: The political fight and fallout over Richard Clarke's testimony before the 9/11 Commission. Two panel members will join us live to explain where the investigation is heading.
Also, the sudden return of a serial killer 25 years of his last string of crimes. How a mysterious letter is reopening old winds in Wichita, Kansas.
And later, Al Franken and his course of liberals get ready to sign on for the first time. We'll take a close look at their chances for survival in the cut-throat world of talk radio. But first, here's a look at the headlines:
More than two dozen people have been injured in a bomb explosion in southern Thailand near the Malaysian border. Police say explosives were attached to a motor bike which blew up in front of a hotel.
A bizarre storm churns off the coast of Brazil. U.S. storm watchers thought it was a small hurricane, something never seen in the South Atlantic, but Brazilian experts say it's what's known as an extra tropical cyclone.
And in this country, police are trying to catch an increasing number of gas thieves whose m.o. might be called "pump and dump." Crooks fill up the tank, lay the hose on the ground and then take off. Such thefts are up nearly 300 percent in recent months according to a survey of station owners.
We begin with the latest fallout from the 9/11 hearings. Republicans launch a strategy to discredit Richard Clarke, the man whose book, TV interview and testimony sent the Bush administration into damage control mode. CNN White House correspondent, Dana Bash, has details on a new effort to diffuse the big bombshell, as she joins us now from the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Fredricka. Well, the White House is getting a little help from its friends. They say they're not coordinating, but the Senate Republican leader and the House Republican leader, the Speaker of the House, are saying that they want to look at what Richard Clarke said during testimony before a congressional inquiry into what happened leading up to 9/11 versus saying now in his book and in hearings this past week. Because they say the two stories don't add up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST (R), MAJORITY LEADER: It is one thing for Mr. Clarke to dissemble in front of the media, in front of the press, but if he lied under oath to the United States congress, it's a far, far more serious matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: So what Senator Frist is trying to do is get some of what Richard Clarke said back in 2002 declassified because they say that at that time, he praised the Bush White House for what they did while he was still working there in preparing for any potential attack in the days and months leading up to September 11th. Meanwhile, the democratic presidential candidate, John Kerry, also weighed in late this week after staying away from the story for quite sometime. He essentially said that the Bush White House put up or shut up. If you're going to try to discredit Richard Clarke and say that he's perhaps lied under oath, that perhaps they should be charging him with perjury. Now, all of this after a really extraordinary week on this story. This -- the hit back, the counter offense continues -- continues this is weekend. Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser going on the same program that Richard Clarke went on last Sunday, she'll be doing that tomorrow -- "60 Minutes" even as the controversy surrounding whether or not she will testify publicly continues. The White House is still saying that's not going to happen -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And Dana, is the White House responding to their plan of attack? If they continue to get pressure from commission members that Dr. Rice testify under oath, does did White House have a quick response on that or are they starting to lean toward perhaps urging her to do so?
BASH: Right now, they say no. You saw a little bit of the response on Thursday when the White House released a letter Alberto Gonzales, the White House council, to the commission offering some private testimony, a second meeting with Condoleezza Rice and the commission members, she first met with them in private back in February. At this point, that is really all they're offering. They're standing by the fact they believe it is not appropriate for somebody who is an aide to the president, not confirmed by the senate, to testify publicly before a commission that was essentially set up by Congress. They say that that would be a bad precedent to set for any president not just President Bush -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. Dana Bash, thanks very much from Crawford, Texas.
Well, it was a rare glimpse behind the scenes in Washington inner workings. The 9/11 hearings designed to get to the bottom of the details in the lead-up to the attacks. Is the commission pleased with the progress so far? We're joined by two members: Richard Ben- Veniste is in Philadelphia, and John Lehman is in New Town, Pennsylvania. Good to see you both of you. Mr. Commissioner and Mr. Secretary, thanks you for joining us.
RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: Thank you.
JOHN LEHMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: Pleasure.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well, Commissioner Ben-Veniste, let me begin with you, are you pleased with the progress of the hearings so far?
BEN-VENISTE: I think the hearings this past week have shed a lot of light for the public to digest with respect to very important facts relating to the era proceeding 9/11 and the immediate aftermath. And, that's the purpose of these public hearings. It's unfortunate distractions over the publicity over Mr. Clarke's book and the attacks on him personally have distracted us somewhat from the focus of these hearings. The facts are what we are interested in. And, we have accumulated a very substantial body of information which was made available through these hearings and which will be supplemented in our final report.
WHITFIELD: Well, how disappointing has it been there that there has been a lot of criticism of the testimony of Richard Clarke, that does seem to be taking center stage this week, overshadowing perhaps, some of the other progress you're able to make in the question and answer period?
BEN-VENISTE: Well, the underlying facts stand. In fact, Dr. Clarke's testimony is very consistent with our own staff finding, and even the conservative columnist today, in the "New York Times," made reference to the fact we ought to be looking at the findings of the commission and he was kind enough to supply our website which is www.911.gov. And people can look it up and make their own judgments.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well Secretary Lehman, let me ask you, if -- Mr. Ben-Veniste says that there are some consistencies in Richard Clarke's testimony, there's an awful lot of criticism, namely coming from other republicans on the panel and Bill Frist, for one, who were saying that there are an awful lot of inconsistencies about his testimony compared to what is written in his book, compared to what he said this week in -- on Capitol Hill.
LEHMAN: Well, Richard is right that Clarke's testimony before us for 15 hours on the facts is very consistent with everything else we have found. What's inconsistent is this spin that he and his book promoters putting on it since. It's his opinion that I think it's got most of the -- most of the controversy, the fact that because he disagrees with the president on Iraq that therefore he's spun it a different way. But Richard Clarke is a distraction here, he's made a contribution in helping us get to the facts and that's what this is all about, and I have to say, that while observing the hearings earlier on TV, one might get a certain twinge of partisan split on the commission. That's not really the case because, I'm amazed at how unanimous all ten of us have been on focusing on -- and riveting on the real dysfunctions and the challenges we've got to change things so this doesn't happen again and that's what the commission is all about. So, I guess there's no such thing as bad publicity as distracting as the Clarke hassle as been, it's helped to make people realize there's a serious effort going on here.
WHITFIELD: Now you've got...
BEN-VENISTE: John is exactly right about that, if I may say. The commission has never voted along partisan lines. We may have individual disagreements, but this is a nonpartisan, professional group of people who are dedicated to getting the facts out.
WHITFIELD: Well, is it really? Is it really?
BEN-VENISTE: Yes.
WHITFIELD: Because you have five democrats, five republicans, but there seems to be this movement from some of the republican members, and the Republican Party, who are saying, now they want to try and declassify the testimony of Richard Clarke and declassification would indeed make it partisan because the White House would have to have the final word on that.
BEN-VENISTE: Well, I would personally support declassification of that testimony. I don't know of any inconsistencies, but if there are let them be shown and let people make up their own minds. I thing our government...
WHITFIELD: Well, Mr. Secretary, did you agree on that?
BEN-VENISTE: I think our government has way over-classified much of the material that should be out there.
LEHMAN: I agree with Richard. I -- first of all, the controversy in the paper this morning is about his congressional testimony, not his testimony before the commission. We are going to declassify, our report is going to be completely unclassified only annexes that is are clearly sources and methods sensitive will be withheld, so when our report comes out, the end of July, all these issues will be clarified because the whole record is going to be presented. We've interviewed over a thousand people, Richard Clarke is just one of them and so we're going to have a record that's going to be the de-definitive, comprehensive record, but more importantly, we're going to have some very hard hitting recommendations for fundamental changes in the way we do our intelligence because we've found, all of us and we all agree on this, that we have an establishment in national security today that was built in the post World War II period to deal with the Soviet Union and to deal with nation states. It is not set up and does not function well in dealing with our current enemy, which is a transnational religious movement. It is Islamic fundamentalist and we're set up to deal with the Warsaw Pact, so we're going have some very, very significant changes to recommend and we have every reason to believe that these are going to be enacted, and enacted before the year's over.
WHITFIELD: Well, Mr. Secretary, let me bring you back to the interviews you mentioned, about 1000 propel interviewed, among those, Condoleezza Rice being interviewed in private, she had a second round of question and answers. Do you believe that she needs to be pressed or the White House needs to be pressed to make her testimony under oath and in public? Is it your belief that, Mr. Secretary, the testimony might be different if the conditions such as those would change?
LEHMAN: Well, you know, lying to federal officials is an offense whether you're under oath or not. And so, I just -- I think the oath issue is a distraction. I think the White House is making a political blunder, an important miscalculation of the political impact of this. Condoleezza Rice should testify before our commission. I understand -- I believe they're on firm ground, legally for with holding her, but they're making a big mistake. We spent four hours with her. She was very frank, very honest, very thorough and she would really help the American people understand, and particularly understand why Dick Clarke's is just one interpretation of the facts among many.
WHITFIELD: Commissioner --
BEN-VENISTE: Clearly, she was...
WHITFIELD: How important for her testimony under oath?
BEN-VENISTE: I've said that it's very important. She was the hub receiving and directing information to and from the executive office to our intelligence agencies, both foreign and domestic, and we've got the domestic hearings coming up in the middle of next month. And therefore, her testimony, if we could get it, would be equally relevant at that time.
BEN-VENISTE: I agree with John...
WHITFIELD: So, what length will the commission go in order to get it?
BEN-VENISTE: I agree with John that while there is precedent for resisting the calling of such individuals, there's also president for appearing before congressional committees. Braginsky did, Sandy Berger, both national security advisers, even Tom Ridge whom the present administration initially objected to appearing before congress did, in fact, appear, and therefore, the idea of hiding behind this argument when Dr. Rice has appeared on every television program talking about the same information, but not being subjected to our questions in open session in the commission that was designed to investigate these facts...
WHITFIELD: So, how will the commission press for that?
BEN-VENISTE: It just doesn't make sense. And, I'm hopeful that the White House will adopt a more cooperative and sensible approach to this.
WHITFIELD: All right. Commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste and Mr. Secretary, John Lehman, thanks very much to both of you for joining us.
LEHMAN: Thank you, Fredricka.
BEN-VENISTE: Pleasure.
WHITFIELD: Well, this programming note, Richard Clarke will be Wolf Blitzer's guest tomorrow on "Late Edition." That's at Noon Eastern, 9:00 Pacific.
A Washington state man accused of using his HIV status as a weapon, that story straight ahead.
And when it comes to hospital bills, a broken arm is a broken arm. Right? Well, later this hour, why your out of pocket expenses can vary dramatically.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONNA JAMES, MOTHER OF CORPORAL EVAN JAMES: Because I don't feel like they should have been there in the first place. Now I've lost a child because of it.
MARILYN KORTHAUS, MOTHER OF SERGEANT BRAD KORTHAUS: He wanted to be there, and he did what he died doing what he wanted to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Remembering two sons lost in the early days of the Iraq war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: This just in to CNN, remember the Florida National Guard soldier, Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia, who said he refused to return back to war in Iraq while on leave back in the states, well now apparently he faces court-martial and has been charged with desertion. He'll face a special court-martial, and that being described by an Army staff sergeant who says, quote, "It's not the least severe, but it's not the most severe court-martial there is." So, once again, 28- year-old soldier -- Florida National Guard soldier, Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia who had refused to go back to war in Iraq is now facing court-martial and has been charged with desertion.
Now, bloodshed in three Iraqi cities, today. Attacks in Mosul and Kirkuk killed three civilians and in Baghdad a roadside bomb exploded this morning wounding five Iraqis. None of the injuries are life-threatening.
Well, how do you drowned in a desert? A year ago this week, two marines died in the opening days of the Iraq war. CNN's Jonathan Freed reports from Davenport, Iowa, where loved ones remember.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONNA JAMES, MOTHER OF CORPORAL EVAN JAMES: This Evan...
So, we have a lot of pictures... JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donna James manages to stay composed when showing the memorial to her son that takes up a room in her home.
JAMES: Yeah. This is the flag from the base in Iraq.
FREED: But when confronting the first anniversary of Evan James' death in Iraq...
JAMES: I guess I didn't feel like they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Now I've lost a child because of it.
FREED: James, a Marine corporal, and Sergeant Brad Korthaus were reservists with the 6th Engineer Support Battalion, Charlie Company. They died on the fourth day of the war, trying to swim about 100 yards across the Saddam Canal in southeastern Iraq to secure the far bank. They both drowned. The tragic irony resonated back home.
FIRST SGT. MICHAEL BERG, U.S. MARINE CORPS: All of a sudden we're getting notification back here that two of our Marines drowned in the middle of a desert -- you know, so it's -- that's real strange, that really caught us off guard.
FREED: A military investigation concluded that it was an accidental and unfortunate result of war. The water was numbing cold and it was muddy, says Corporal Josh Lukehart, who got close enough to try to rescue Korthaus.
CORPORAL JOSHUA LUKEHART, U.S. MARINE CORPS: I got like within five of feet of him.
FREED: But he couldn't see his friend through the gloom.
LUKEHART: The most frustrating part was actually knowing I was right above him and I could have dove down to get him right then and there.
FREED: The sergeant's mother comforted by thoughts of her son's dedication to the mission and the Marine Corps.
MARILYN KORTHAUS, MOTHER OF SERGEANT BRAD KORTHAUS: He wanted to be there, and he did what he wanted to do, and he died doing what he wanted to do.
FREED: The image of two rifles stuck in the ground representing the fallen soldiers is haunting to Donna James.
JAMES: It's hard to accept the fact that he drowned because he was such a strong swimmer.
FREED: Korthaus is buried next to his father, another Marine.
KORTHAUS: We must never forget what they're doing for us. Never, ever forget that.
FREED: Jonathan Freed, CNN Davenport, Iowa. (END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: A liberal talk radio network hits the air in major markets next week. It's a left's attempt to counter the enormously pervasive conservative message led by Rush Limbaugh. Comedian Al Franken will go head-to-head against Limbaugh in a show titled "The O'Franken Factor" featuring a no-spin zone. Sound familiar? Well, Matt Felling is the media director at the Center for Media and Public Affairs in Washington; the non-partisan group studies the news and entertainment industries.
Good to see you.
MATTHEW FELLING, CENTER FOR MEDIA AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Hey, good afternoon.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well, Air America, a new 24 hour radio network, and on this launchpad, Al Franken going up against Rush Limbaugh, you know, Monday through Friday. This is perfect timing, isn't it in an election year? Coincidence?
FELLING: Oh my god. No -- not only is it perfect timing in an election year, but I mean, never has the left had so much material in terms of politicians behaving badly. Weapons of mass destruction, related activity programs in the State of Union, a trip to Mars, Medicare purposely underestimated publicly. There's so much fodder. Just taking a look from the middle, that they almost have to do this, and Al Franken said he doesn't know if he's going to stay after the election, because his major goal is just to get President Bush off the air waves. Not only...
WHITFIELD: Interesting.
FELLING: Yeah. Not only is Al Franken affiliated with this, but also Janeane Garofalo and also Chuck D. from the group, Public Enemy. So, they're really trying to motivate and activate their liberal -- urban liberal base which is a very, very viable step for them to do.
WHITFIELD: So, he really is being coined as a quintessential angry democrat. Does he have, you believe, quite the following, a fairly large mainstream following?
FELLING: Well, that's the key. I don't think he has -- I don't think mainstream-wise -- in terms of middle America, he's not going to necessarily speak their language, but in terms of motivating and agitating the urban liberal base, I think Franken is a perfect -- is as great of job as anybody because we need more smash mouth in American talk radio to balance out the ideological spectrum. For far too long, we've allowed the Rush Limbaughs and the G. Gordon Liddys and Michael Savages to take over the air waves. And it's just very lopsided. And...
WHITFIELD: Wow. So, you think we need more of, as opposed to, less than?
FELLING: Yeah. I just think that we need some balance and if we're not going to -- and people aren't going to listen, right away, to super centrist radio, like Mark Satin with his book "Radical Middle," that's something we need to get to down the road. I think that this is just a good counterweight and a lot of Americans are hungry for it.
WHITFIELD: So, wait a minute. If Al Franken is only committed through the election season, through November, then what does that say for the lifespan of this network?
FELLING: Well, it's not that he's only committed, it's just that he said he would be more than happy if he left the air waves with Bush out of the office. I think that he will develop a following and I do think that Air America, this new network, will probably mature over time. A lot of their lineup is consistent -- consists of comedians: Garofalo, Franken -- and I think that they'll probably have to start to touch middle America and will start talking -- they'll talk to people who, when you hear the words SEC, they think of college football and not Wall Street.
WHITFIELD: So, you mentioned some of the famous celebrities who are backing Al Franken. Now, what about -- you know, some famous politicos -- you know, such as members of the Democratic Party? I understand that -- you know, the RNC chairman is good buddies with the CEO of this network.
FELLING: Yeah. I mean, when you get up into the higher tiers, in terms of where the money comes from and the levels of that, I think it reflects pretty well on this Air America network, that they can have friends across the board. Because, I mean, they're not going to be bashing 100 percent of the time. Hopefully, they'll be giving some progressive views and some constructive criticism instead of just "we hate Bush" 24 hours a day. I don't think that will work.
WHITFIELD: All right. Matthew Felling, thanks very much. I think I said "RNC" when I really meant to say "DNC," the Democratic National...
FELLING: Oh.
WHITFIELD: ...Chariman.Thanks very much, Matthew. Appreciate it.
FELLING: All right. Have a good one.
WHITFIELD: Well, the price you pay for getting sick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My whole world had been turned completely upside down. We'd lost our business. My husband wasn't going to be the same again.
(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: How hospitals rely on the uninsured to help cover their losses. Why the cost of treatment depends on who's footing the bill.
And still to come, NASA's latest attempt to change travel as we know it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Here are the headlines at this moment. A Florida national guard soldier that refused to return to Iraq has been charged with desertion and he'll face courtmartial. Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia served five months in Iraq before returning on a two-week leave. He plans to seek conscience objector status.
Under pressure from protesters, Taiwan's president says he'll meet monday with the opponent and accept the results of a recount. A half million people clogged the streets of the capital today to protest what they see as a flawed presidential vote.
And New York is threatening to fine Donald Trump over a banner he hosted on his Fifth Avenue building. It reads, "you're fired," his signature line from "The Apprentice." The city says Trump didn't get permission to hang the banner. Trump says officials should thank him for bringing in tourists.
Well, here's a fact you may not know. When you get sick, there are often three different prices to get you well again. If you're on medicare, your treatment will cost you one price. If you have medical insurance, you'll get a different rate. But if you're uninsured and you get sick, look out. Those with no coverage are often slapped with bills that are astronomicly higher than charged to the other two groups.
Here's Peter Viles of what can happen when Americans 44 million uninsured go to the hospital.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ed and Dianna are paying the price for a trip to the hospital two years ago. Suffering from encephalitis, a viral infection, Ed was hospitalized 17 days.
DIANNA JELLISON, UNINSURED PATIENT: My whole world had been turned completely upside down. We lost our business. My husband wasn't going to be the same again. Everything had changed.
VILES: They paid $30,000 in doctor's bills and then another bill came from Florida hospital, $116,000. The Jellison's had no insurance. If they did -- the insurance company would have been charged a fraction of that amount.
D. JELLISON: It makes me very mad, very mad.
VILES: But that's the way hospital billing works. List prices are wildly inflated but insurance companies don't pay the high prices, only the uninsured do.
K.B. FORBES, WWW.CONSEJOHELP.OGR: It is outragous, that they price gouge a working class, middle class family here in the United States. It is all about greed. All they wanted to do is suck out the hard earned assets of the family.
VILES: These are cases they're analyzed. An (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the bill to medicare is 10,000, To an insurance company, 12,000, but if you're uninsured, 29,000. A broken leg, costs medicare 4,800, cost an insurance company 5,400, cost if you have no insurance, $15,000.
Still the hospital industry says it loses money treating the uninsured.
CARMELA COYLE, AMERICAN HOSPITAL ASSN.: We have 44 million americans who have no health insurance coverage at all. And, while they come to America's hospital emergency departments and receive care, there is no payment that's ultimately received for many of those patient.
VILES: The point man of the Bush administration pointman on this, Tommy Thompson is urging hospitals for discounts to the uninsured and hospitals are doing so.
Peter Viles, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: So why does the healthcare system charge different rates to different people?
With me now from Las Vegas is K.B. Forbes with the Council of United Latinos, a group to help the poor and uninsured and from Tallahassee, Florida, we are joined by Ralph Glassfelter, he's senior lobbyist with the Florida Health Association.
Good to see both of you.
FORBES: Good to see you.
RALPH GLATFELTER, FLORDIA HEALTH ASSOCIATION: Thank you for the opportunity.
WHITFIELD: Great. Thanks for being with us.
K.B. let me begin with you.
What's the explanation that any healthcare provider give to why rates would be discounted for those insured as opposed to those without insurance?
FORBES: You cannot defend the indefensible. I mean, basically, what's happening is the uninsured making up 2 or 3 percent of the patient base are being charged four or five or even some cases six times more than what the hospital would accept as payment in full from an insurance company. The bottom line is greed. Not only that, they send a ruthless collector and aggressive attorneys to go after these people. And let me explain for your viewers, when we talk about the uninsured, we are not talking about charity care. We are not the poor. What we're talking about is middle class Americans like the Jellisons. Not poor enough to qualify for charity care medicare and yet not healthier or wealthy enough to have insurance. And the hospital haves a niche market where they can suck up the hard earned assets placing liens on the homes, garnishing the wages, harrasing the over the phone. It is deplorable behavior and the hospitals have to stop.
OK, well, Ralph, let me jump in.
How can you defend this practice?
GLATFELTER: Hospitals charge all patients the same using an uniformed billing schedule. What is different with regard to HMOs and PPOs is that hospitals negotiate discounts. Those discounts are based on volume, pure and simple. The more patients, the greater discount. Now, what we have done in the state of florida with regard to the uninsured, the Florida Hospital Association is the first and only association of hospitals in this country to come forward and seek legislation which would require every single hospital in this state to offer discount to the uninsured. And that discount would have to apply to uninsured floridans with incomes up to $55,000 a year. Now, the effective rate of that discount once it is implemented throughout the state of Florida, we believe the effective rate of that discount will be 90 percent off of what billed charges. Now, that's three or four times the discount to HMOs or PPOs.
WHITFIELD: That's great for Florida. Why isn't that a practice -- model for the practice across the country?
GLATFELTER: I think hospitals are looking at what happens here in Florida and I would expect something similar to this to take place throughout the nation. The question that I have, the real issue here is why -- what are we going to do as a nation with the 44 million people who are uninsured?
Here in Florida, one out of every five of our citizens under the age of 65 are uninsured. And a challenge that I would have for Mr. Forbes is why isn't he and his organization coming forward with one recommendation to provide additional health insurance for Florida's and the nation's uninsured in that is the core issue.
WHITFIELD: Well, I'll let you respond to that.
FORBES: Let me first of all say we're here to help the uninsured price gouged. Let me talk about the Florida Hospital Association plan, legislation as they call it. Their proposal is nothing more than a price gouging protection act. What they say is that if you're at 301 percent of poverty level, we will price gouge. If you are not, we won't.
GLATFELTER: That is just not true.
FORBES: They are legalizing price gouging. It is true. And on top of that, you have to qualify. If your bill, you have assets of more than 50 percent of the bill...
GLATFELTER: That's not true.
FORBES: No, let me speak, Ralph. Because you're doing everything to protect you're behavior.
WHITFIELD: So what is the solution than?
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: ... your proposing a completely different figure offered?
(CROSSTALK)
FORBES: Yes. Let me tell you what has been done. Let me tell you what has been done in Florida, Fredericka. Tenet Healthcare, the second largest hospital chain in America, they did the same thing like the Florida Hospital Association. Deny, disputed, did everything in their power to avoid the topic. But they finally sat down with after a year...
WHITFIELD: What's the offer?
FORBES: They're offering the uninsured the prices as managed care patients. That means when you walk into a Tenet hospital, you will be charged the same price as insured person regardless of your race, regardless of your ethnicity and regardless of your income. It makes good sense. These hospitals also complain that, well, the uninsured don't pay. Well, if you charge them a reasonable rate and reasonable payment plans, your income will increase. And Tenet saw the light. I mean, for the Florida Hospital Association to sit on national TV and try to justify this behavior, the horrific collection activities like the Jellisons.
WHITFIELD: OK, we are running out of time. You'll have to wrap it up.
FORBES: OK, let me just say, right now and today, we are calling on all hospitals to start charging the uninsured the same rate. If the Jellisons had been charged the rates like an insurane they would only have been charged $20,000.
WHITFIELD: OK. K.B. Forbes, and Ralph Glatfelter.
FORBES: OK. Thanks a lot. And we're winning on this issue and thank you, Fredericka, for your time.
WHITFIELD: Well, Ralph, let you can have the last word real quick.
GLATFELTER: Mr. Forbes knows as well as I do that the discounts that we are proposing here in this state of Florida, the effective discount rate will be three, four and five times greater than the discount that is are provided times more...
FORBES: But you're charging the people five to 600 percent more.
GLATFELTER: I don't know what else...
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: I appreciate it. Ralph Glatfelter, thanks very much to both you gentleman for joining us.
GLATFELTER: Thank you.
FORBES: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: A washington state man is phasing criminal charges for allegedly having unprotected sex. Find out what is at issue.
Plus, a piece of mail puts a city in Kansas on edge and prompts police to revisit an unsolved crime spree. That story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: People in tranquil, Midwestern city of Wichita, Kansas reliving a nightmare marked by the BTK, that stands for "bind, torture and kill," a monoker of a serial killer. A string of such unsolved killing in Whichita date back more than a quarter of a century. Now, the killer may have returned.
CNN's Jonathan Freed has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The people of Wichita had allowed themselves to move on, to push the images of the bodies from their minds. But an old demon has pushed his way back into their lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This communique most likely came from BTK.
FREED: The BTK strangler is connected to seven murders, mostly women attacked in their homes between 1974 and '79. He toyed with police, sending letters, claiming responsibility for the crimes, even giving himself his infamous nickname.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: BTK stands for bind, torture, and kill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FREED: He wasn't heard from for 25 years. Then, last week, "The Wichita Eagle" newspaper received a letter containing a photocopy of the driver's license of a 1986 murder victim, Vickie Wegerle, along with pictures of her body. Victim number eight.
Richard LaMunyon was chief of police back in the '70s. RICHARD LAMUNYON, FORMER WICHITA POLICE CHIEF: I think it's unprecedented. I don't know of any -- personally, I don't have any knowledge where it's ever happened like this before.
FREED: Why break a quarter-century of silence? We asked a psychiatrist who was involved in the investigation.
HOWARD BROOSKY, PSYCHIATRIST: Has he recently gone through some kind of a life change, like a divorce, where he feels like stirring up something? Has he returned to the community after being incarcerated?
FREED: Whatever the killer's motive, he has piqued emotion in Wichita. Some stores have sold out of MACE. Alarm companies are getting more calls. And listen to a woman who lives around the corner from the site of the first attack in 1974.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought about it when I went to sleep last night, made sure that I double-checked every single window in the house, as did most of the people I've talked to.
FREED (on camera): Police have samples of the killer's DNA, and they're hoping that modern techniques and a little luck will eventually lead them to a match.
Jonathan Freed, CNN, Wichita, Kansas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Now, the latest on some other stories making news across America.
Police in Olympia, Washington have arrested a HIV positive man for allegedly having unprotected sex with numerous partners. Anthony Whitfield, no relation, in the jail charged with three counts of assault.
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger asking for leniency in the case against Pamela Martinez. She served prison time for petty crimes to feed a drug habit. Well, since the release almost three years ago, reformed her life and holds a steady job. But the state says her sentence was not calculated properly and wants her back in jail for another 65 days.
Authorities in Connecticut say they'll have to spend 11 million dollars in federal money to fix a bridge on Interstate 95 in Bridgeport, a portion of that major artery is closed since a fiery truck crash melted the bridge structure Thursday night.
Seven times a speed of sound, that's the gold of an unmanned NASA test program for the X-43 craft, launching from beneath a B-52 bomber. It use ago exotic engine, called a scram (ph) jet. One day it might be used in space flight.
With the daffodils outside, blossoming ideas about the next vacation. Once the spectacular option, a Grand Canyon. We'll talk to an expert about what you need to know before heading to the natural wonder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helmets are the fastest growing segment of the ski and snow board business. Why, because for the first time they're light and protective. And guess what, they are not even hot. The reason is simple, polycarbonates have entered the business. This is ultra hard, that is excellent for protection. There are also holes in the top here. That means that moisture and heat can vent right out. The other thing, this thing weighs about 380 grams, about equivalent to about 15, 16 sheets of paper if you're counting. Why is that helpful? Because if you doing inverted moves, going upside down, you don't have a big heavy thing on the rock. Does that help the average skier, no. But just in case, your protected, it's light and you're comfortable. Use your head.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Yearning to explore one of the world's natural wonders?
Look no further than the good old Grand Canyon in Arizona. It is still one of the top travel spot in the U.S.
With more insight on the big ditch, we turn to John Annerino, a contributor to "National Geographic." He joins us on the phone. He's author of "The Grand Canyon Wild."
All right, John.
JOHN ANNERINO, TRAVEL WRITER: How are you doing today?
WHITFIELD: I'm doing great. No need to go abroad to check out the wonderful natural beauty of other countries, we've got it right here.
Is the Grand Canyon still as popular of a place for family vacations as it once was?
ANNERINO: More popular than ever. 4.5 million people visited the Grand Canyon last year. It's one of the seven natural wonders of the world.
WHITFIELD: And there's so much to do. Not just a matter of standing at a vista and looking over. I understand there are things such as, you know, white water rafting, as well as donkey riding. You see I haven't been to the Grand Canyon yet.
What are the activities that folks can take advantage of?
ANNERINO: So many things to do. You can greet the day with a canyon sun rise and prayer stroll at rim trails. A day hike over the edge of the Canyon rim. Backpack down to the Colorado River along the rustic trails. You can take that mule ride. They're not donkeys down at the (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
WHITFIELD: And what kind of...
ANNERINO: The Cowboys Steak and Beans.
WHITFIELD: And what kind of efforts are in space to make sure that people do respect, you know, the natural beauty around them and don't, you know, abuse it by the heavy traffic that seems to be taking place there every year?
ANNERINO: Well, the park is well regulated by natural history rangers, law enforcement rangers, rescue ranger and river that really take care to enlighten people how to see the Grand Canyon safely.
WHITFIELD: Best time of year to go in your opinion?
ANNERINO: Best time if you hike fall or spring, summer's far too hot. Rafting, cool off in the summertime. Driving, before and after summer crowds.
WHITFIELD: Now, what about accommodations?
ANNERINO: Accommodations, the Grand Canyon especially has three unique rustic lodges. The El Tovar, and the Bright Angel on the south rim and the Grand Canyon Lodge on the north rim. You can roll out your bed roll and tent at one of many campgrounds.
WHITFIELD: OK. So, what would be your best recommendation?
Do you think if you do the Canyon, you need to try to camp out?
ANNERINO: No, you don't. That depends on what your interests are. You can camp or bed and breakfast.
WHITFIELD: Not bad at all. John Annerino, thanks very much, of National Geographics Adventure. Thanks for joining us on the telephone.
ANNERINO: Thank you very much.
WHITFIELD: Planning or spring celebration and summer is too hot for the Grand Canyon.
From a rescue to a cave rescue in Mexico, to a show down, at the U.S. Supreme Court, it's been a week of amazing of amazing pictures. We'll show you some of the best ones after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: It's a busy week in the news bringing many memorable images and including some you may have missed. Here's a look back at the week of pictures.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: A show down at the U.S. Supreme court. Hundreds of people pro, and con, demonstrate over the phrase "under god" in the pledge. In Iraq, fighting an oil fire. Thousands of gallons spilled and ignited in a massive fire ball. The suspected cause, poor maintenance, not terrorism.
In Rome, a fanned riot forced the suspension of a soccer match. Huge crowds confronted police after a rumor spread that a young boy was killed by authorities outside the stadium.
Trapped inside a cave. Six british explorers spend a week inside a flooded Mexican cavern before being rescued in Thursday. They're in hot water with authorities who suspect they were in the country illegally.
Surfer Bethamey Hamilton continues to overcome the devastating disability. She's a 14-year-old whose arm was ripped off by a shark months ago. Last weekend, she took part in the third competition since the attack reaching the semi finals.
The U.S. Olympic sailing finals are being hold off the coast of Miami. Sailors are fighting the clock and 30 knot wind which wrecked havoc on the boats.
A field of flowers in California, in full bloom in, Carlsbad, California. The landscape is open to the public each year from March to May.
So much more on CNN Saturday.
In a few moments, "IN THE MONEY".
At 2:00 Eastern, CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Indepth on the gasoline price crunch, and what can be done to ease your pain at the pump.
At 3:00, "NEXT @ CNN" looks at clues to a Mars mission.
But first Susan Lisovicz with a preview of "IN THE MONEY."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks.
Coming up, rethinking the fight against terrorism. We'll look at a tactic to sting the suspects.
Plus, no pain, no gain. Find out about an insurance scam where doctors allegedly paid their patients.
And Coca-Cola bottled water tanks in Europe. See how the stock is doing. All that after a check of the headlines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 27, 2004 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is 12:00 in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. I'm Fredricka Whitfield at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Ahead this hour: The political fight and fallout over Richard Clarke's testimony before the 9/11 Commission. Two panel members will join us live to explain where the investigation is heading.
Also, the sudden return of a serial killer 25 years of his last string of crimes. How a mysterious letter is reopening old winds in Wichita, Kansas.
And later, Al Franken and his course of liberals get ready to sign on for the first time. We'll take a close look at their chances for survival in the cut-throat world of talk radio. But first, here's a look at the headlines:
More than two dozen people have been injured in a bomb explosion in southern Thailand near the Malaysian border. Police say explosives were attached to a motor bike which blew up in front of a hotel.
A bizarre storm churns off the coast of Brazil. U.S. storm watchers thought it was a small hurricane, something never seen in the South Atlantic, but Brazilian experts say it's what's known as an extra tropical cyclone.
And in this country, police are trying to catch an increasing number of gas thieves whose m.o. might be called "pump and dump." Crooks fill up the tank, lay the hose on the ground and then take off. Such thefts are up nearly 300 percent in recent months according to a survey of station owners.
We begin with the latest fallout from the 9/11 hearings. Republicans launch a strategy to discredit Richard Clarke, the man whose book, TV interview and testimony sent the Bush administration into damage control mode. CNN White House correspondent, Dana Bash, has details on a new effort to diffuse the big bombshell, as she joins us now from the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Fredricka. Well, the White House is getting a little help from its friends. They say they're not coordinating, but the Senate Republican leader and the House Republican leader, the Speaker of the House, are saying that they want to look at what Richard Clarke said during testimony before a congressional inquiry into what happened leading up to 9/11 versus saying now in his book and in hearings this past week. Because they say the two stories don't add up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST (R), MAJORITY LEADER: It is one thing for Mr. Clarke to dissemble in front of the media, in front of the press, but if he lied under oath to the United States congress, it's a far, far more serious matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: So what Senator Frist is trying to do is get some of what Richard Clarke said back in 2002 declassified because they say that at that time, he praised the Bush White House for what they did while he was still working there in preparing for any potential attack in the days and months leading up to September 11th. Meanwhile, the democratic presidential candidate, John Kerry, also weighed in late this week after staying away from the story for quite sometime. He essentially said that the Bush White House put up or shut up. If you're going to try to discredit Richard Clarke and say that he's perhaps lied under oath, that perhaps they should be charging him with perjury. Now, all of this after a really extraordinary week on this story. This -- the hit back, the counter offense continues -- continues this is weekend. Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser going on the same program that Richard Clarke went on last Sunday, she'll be doing that tomorrow -- "60 Minutes" even as the controversy surrounding whether or not she will testify publicly continues. The White House is still saying that's not going to happen -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And Dana, is the White House responding to their plan of attack? If they continue to get pressure from commission members that Dr. Rice testify under oath, does did White House have a quick response on that or are they starting to lean toward perhaps urging her to do so?
BASH: Right now, they say no. You saw a little bit of the response on Thursday when the White House released a letter Alberto Gonzales, the White House council, to the commission offering some private testimony, a second meeting with Condoleezza Rice and the commission members, she first met with them in private back in February. At this point, that is really all they're offering. They're standing by the fact they believe it is not appropriate for somebody who is an aide to the president, not confirmed by the senate, to testify publicly before a commission that was essentially set up by Congress. They say that that would be a bad precedent to set for any president not just President Bush -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right. Dana Bash, thanks very much from Crawford, Texas.
Well, it was a rare glimpse behind the scenes in Washington inner workings. The 9/11 hearings designed to get to the bottom of the details in the lead-up to the attacks. Is the commission pleased with the progress so far? We're joined by two members: Richard Ben- Veniste is in Philadelphia, and John Lehman is in New Town, Pennsylvania. Good to see you both of you. Mr. Commissioner and Mr. Secretary, thanks you for joining us.
RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: Thank you.
JOHN LEHMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: Pleasure.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well, Commissioner Ben-Veniste, let me begin with you, are you pleased with the progress of the hearings so far?
BEN-VENISTE: I think the hearings this past week have shed a lot of light for the public to digest with respect to very important facts relating to the era proceeding 9/11 and the immediate aftermath. And, that's the purpose of these public hearings. It's unfortunate distractions over the publicity over Mr. Clarke's book and the attacks on him personally have distracted us somewhat from the focus of these hearings. The facts are what we are interested in. And, we have accumulated a very substantial body of information which was made available through these hearings and which will be supplemented in our final report.
WHITFIELD: Well, how disappointing has it been there that there has been a lot of criticism of the testimony of Richard Clarke, that does seem to be taking center stage this week, overshadowing perhaps, some of the other progress you're able to make in the question and answer period?
BEN-VENISTE: Well, the underlying facts stand. In fact, Dr. Clarke's testimony is very consistent with our own staff finding, and even the conservative columnist today, in the "New York Times," made reference to the fact we ought to be looking at the findings of the commission and he was kind enough to supply our website which is www.911.gov. And people can look it up and make their own judgments.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well Secretary Lehman, let me ask you, if -- Mr. Ben-Veniste says that there are some consistencies in Richard Clarke's testimony, there's an awful lot of criticism, namely coming from other republicans on the panel and Bill Frist, for one, who were saying that there are an awful lot of inconsistencies about his testimony compared to what is written in his book, compared to what he said this week in -- on Capitol Hill.
LEHMAN: Well, Richard is right that Clarke's testimony before us for 15 hours on the facts is very consistent with everything else we have found. What's inconsistent is this spin that he and his book promoters putting on it since. It's his opinion that I think it's got most of the -- most of the controversy, the fact that because he disagrees with the president on Iraq that therefore he's spun it a different way. But Richard Clarke is a distraction here, he's made a contribution in helping us get to the facts and that's what this is all about, and I have to say, that while observing the hearings earlier on TV, one might get a certain twinge of partisan split on the commission. That's not really the case because, I'm amazed at how unanimous all ten of us have been on focusing on -- and riveting on the real dysfunctions and the challenges we've got to change things so this doesn't happen again and that's what the commission is all about. So, I guess there's no such thing as bad publicity as distracting as the Clarke hassle as been, it's helped to make people realize there's a serious effort going on here.
WHITFIELD: Now you've got...
BEN-VENISTE: John is exactly right about that, if I may say. The commission has never voted along partisan lines. We may have individual disagreements, but this is a nonpartisan, professional group of people who are dedicated to getting the facts out.
WHITFIELD: Well, is it really? Is it really?
BEN-VENISTE: Yes.
WHITFIELD: Because you have five democrats, five republicans, but there seems to be this movement from some of the republican members, and the Republican Party, who are saying, now they want to try and declassify the testimony of Richard Clarke and declassification would indeed make it partisan because the White House would have to have the final word on that.
BEN-VENISTE: Well, I would personally support declassification of that testimony. I don't know of any inconsistencies, but if there are let them be shown and let people make up their own minds. I thing our government...
WHITFIELD: Well, Mr. Secretary, did you agree on that?
BEN-VENISTE: I think our government has way over-classified much of the material that should be out there.
LEHMAN: I agree with Richard. I -- first of all, the controversy in the paper this morning is about his congressional testimony, not his testimony before the commission. We are going to declassify, our report is going to be completely unclassified only annexes that is are clearly sources and methods sensitive will be withheld, so when our report comes out, the end of July, all these issues will be clarified because the whole record is going to be presented. We've interviewed over a thousand people, Richard Clarke is just one of them and so we're going to have a record that's going to be the de-definitive, comprehensive record, but more importantly, we're going to have some very hard hitting recommendations for fundamental changes in the way we do our intelligence because we've found, all of us and we all agree on this, that we have an establishment in national security today that was built in the post World War II period to deal with the Soviet Union and to deal with nation states. It is not set up and does not function well in dealing with our current enemy, which is a transnational religious movement. It is Islamic fundamentalist and we're set up to deal with the Warsaw Pact, so we're going have some very, very significant changes to recommend and we have every reason to believe that these are going to be enacted, and enacted before the year's over.
WHITFIELD: Well, Mr. Secretary, let me bring you back to the interviews you mentioned, about 1000 propel interviewed, among those, Condoleezza Rice being interviewed in private, she had a second round of question and answers. Do you believe that she needs to be pressed or the White House needs to be pressed to make her testimony under oath and in public? Is it your belief that, Mr. Secretary, the testimony might be different if the conditions such as those would change?
LEHMAN: Well, you know, lying to federal officials is an offense whether you're under oath or not. And so, I just -- I think the oath issue is a distraction. I think the White House is making a political blunder, an important miscalculation of the political impact of this. Condoleezza Rice should testify before our commission. I understand -- I believe they're on firm ground, legally for with holding her, but they're making a big mistake. We spent four hours with her. She was very frank, very honest, very thorough and she would really help the American people understand, and particularly understand why Dick Clarke's is just one interpretation of the facts among many.
WHITFIELD: Commissioner --
BEN-VENISTE: Clearly, she was...
WHITFIELD: How important for her testimony under oath?
BEN-VENISTE: I've said that it's very important. She was the hub receiving and directing information to and from the executive office to our intelligence agencies, both foreign and domestic, and we've got the domestic hearings coming up in the middle of next month. And therefore, her testimony, if we could get it, would be equally relevant at that time.
BEN-VENISTE: I agree with John...
WHITFIELD: So, what length will the commission go in order to get it?
BEN-VENISTE: I agree with John that while there is precedent for resisting the calling of such individuals, there's also president for appearing before congressional committees. Braginsky did, Sandy Berger, both national security advisers, even Tom Ridge whom the present administration initially objected to appearing before congress did, in fact, appear, and therefore, the idea of hiding behind this argument when Dr. Rice has appeared on every television program talking about the same information, but not being subjected to our questions in open session in the commission that was designed to investigate these facts...
WHITFIELD: So, how will the commission press for that?
BEN-VENISTE: It just doesn't make sense. And, I'm hopeful that the White House will adopt a more cooperative and sensible approach to this.
WHITFIELD: All right. Commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste and Mr. Secretary, John Lehman, thanks very much to both of you for joining us.
LEHMAN: Thank you, Fredricka.
BEN-VENISTE: Pleasure.
WHITFIELD: Well, this programming note, Richard Clarke will be Wolf Blitzer's guest tomorrow on "Late Edition." That's at Noon Eastern, 9:00 Pacific.
A Washington state man accused of using his HIV status as a weapon, that story straight ahead.
And when it comes to hospital bills, a broken arm is a broken arm. Right? Well, later this hour, why your out of pocket expenses can vary dramatically.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONNA JAMES, MOTHER OF CORPORAL EVAN JAMES: Because I don't feel like they should have been there in the first place. Now I've lost a child because of it.
MARILYN KORTHAUS, MOTHER OF SERGEANT BRAD KORTHAUS: He wanted to be there, and he did what he died doing what he wanted to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: Remembering two sons lost in the early days of the Iraq war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: This just in to CNN, remember the Florida National Guard soldier, Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia, who said he refused to return back to war in Iraq while on leave back in the states, well now apparently he faces court-martial and has been charged with desertion. He'll face a special court-martial, and that being described by an Army staff sergeant who says, quote, "It's not the least severe, but it's not the most severe court-martial there is." So, once again, 28- year-old soldier -- Florida National Guard soldier, Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia who had refused to go back to war in Iraq is now facing court-martial and has been charged with desertion.
Now, bloodshed in three Iraqi cities, today. Attacks in Mosul and Kirkuk killed three civilians and in Baghdad a roadside bomb exploded this morning wounding five Iraqis. None of the injuries are life-threatening.
Well, how do you drowned in a desert? A year ago this week, two marines died in the opening days of the Iraq war. CNN's Jonathan Freed reports from Davenport, Iowa, where loved ones remember.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONNA JAMES, MOTHER OF CORPORAL EVAN JAMES: This Evan...
So, we have a lot of pictures... JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donna James manages to stay composed when showing the memorial to her son that takes up a room in her home.
JAMES: Yeah. This is the flag from the base in Iraq.
FREED: But when confronting the first anniversary of Evan James' death in Iraq...
JAMES: I guess I didn't feel like they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Now I've lost a child because of it.
FREED: James, a Marine corporal, and Sergeant Brad Korthaus were reservists with the 6th Engineer Support Battalion, Charlie Company. They died on the fourth day of the war, trying to swim about 100 yards across the Saddam Canal in southeastern Iraq to secure the far bank. They both drowned. The tragic irony resonated back home.
FIRST SGT. MICHAEL BERG, U.S. MARINE CORPS: All of a sudden we're getting notification back here that two of our Marines drowned in the middle of a desert -- you know, so it's -- that's real strange, that really caught us off guard.
FREED: A military investigation concluded that it was an accidental and unfortunate result of war. The water was numbing cold and it was muddy, says Corporal Josh Lukehart, who got close enough to try to rescue Korthaus.
CORPORAL JOSHUA LUKEHART, U.S. MARINE CORPS: I got like within five of feet of him.
FREED: But he couldn't see his friend through the gloom.
LUKEHART: The most frustrating part was actually knowing I was right above him and I could have dove down to get him right then and there.
FREED: The sergeant's mother comforted by thoughts of her son's dedication to the mission and the Marine Corps.
MARILYN KORTHAUS, MOTHER OF SERGEANT BRAD KORTHAUS: He wanted to be there, and he did what he wanted to do, and he died doing what he wanted to do.
FREED: The image of two rifles stuck in the ground representing the fallen soldiers is haunting to Donna James.
JAMES: It's hard to accept the fact that he drowned because he was such a strong swimmer.
FREED: Korthaus is buried next to his father, another Marine.
KORTHAUS: We must never forget what they're doing for us. Never, ever forget that.
FREED: Jonathan Freed, CNN Davenport, Iowa. (END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: A liberal talk radio network hits the air in major markets next week. It's a left's attempt to counter the enormously pervasive conservative message led by Rush Limbaugh. Comedian Al Franken will go head-to-head against Limbaugh in a show titled "The O'Franken Factor" featuring a no-spin zone. Sound familiar? Well, Matt Felling is the media director at the Center for Media and Public Affairs in Washington; the non-partisan group studies the news and entertainment industries.
Good to see you.
MATTHEW FELLING, CENTER FOR MEDIA AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS: Hey, good afternoon.
WHITFIELD: All right. Well, Air America, a new 24 hour radio network, and on this launchpad, Al Franken going up against Rush Limbaugh, you know, Monday through Friday. This is perfect timing, isn't it in an election year? Coincidence?
FELLING: Oh my god. No -- not only is it perfect timing in an election year, but I mean, never has the left had so much material in terms of politicians behaving badly. Weapons of mass destruction, related activity programs in the State of Union, a trip to Mars, Medicare purposely underestimated publicly. There's so much fodder. Just taking a look from the middle, that they almost have to do this, and Al Franken said he doesn't know if he's going to stay after the election, because his major goal is just to get President Bush off the air waves. Not only...
WHITFIELD: Interesting.
FELLING: Yeah. Not only is Al Franken affiliated with this, but also Janeane Garofalo and also Chuck D. from the group, Public Enemy. So, they're really trying to motivate and activate their liberal -- urban liberal base which is a very, very viable step for them to do.
WHITFIELD: So, he really is being coined as a quintessential angry democrat. Does he have, you believe, quite the following, a fairly large mainstream following?
FELLING: Well, that's the key. I don't think he has -- I don't think mainstream-wise -- in terms of middle America, he's not going to necessarily speak their language, but in terms of motivating and agitating the urban liberal base, I think Franken is a perfect -- is as great of job as anybody because we need more smash mouth in American talk radio to balance out the ideological spectrum. For far too long, we've allowed the Rush Limbaughs and the G. Gordon Liddys and Michael Savages to take over the air waves. And it's just very lopsided. And...
WHITFIELD: Wow. So, you think we need more of, as opposed to, less than?
FELLING: Yeah. I just think that we need some balance and if we're not going to -- and people aren't going to listen, right away, to super centrist radio, like Mark Satin with his book "Radical Middle," that's something we need to get to down the road. I think that this is just a good counterweight and a lot of Americans are hungry for it.
WHITFIELD: So, wait a minute. If Al Franken is only committed through the election season, through November, then what does that say for the lifespan of this network?
FELLING: Well, it's not that he's only committed, it's just that he said he would be more than happy if he left the air waves with Bush out of the office. I think that he will develop a following and I do think that Air America, this new network, will probably mature over time. A lot of their lineup is consistent -- consists of comedians: Garofalo, Franken -- and I think that they'll probably have to start to touch middle America and will start talking -- they'll talk to people who, when you hear the words SEC, they think of college football and not Wall Street.
WHITFIELD: So, you mentioned some of the famous celebrities who are backing Al Franken. Now, what about -- you know, some famous politicos -- you know, such as members of the Democratic Party? I understand that -- you know, the RNC chairman is good buddies with the CEO of this network.
FELLING: Yeah. I mean, when you get up into the higher tiers, in terms of where the money comes from and the levels of that, I think it reflects pretty well on this Air America network, that they can have friends across the board. Because, I mean, they're not going to be bashing 100 percent of the time. Hopefully, they'll be giving some progressive views and some constructive criticism instead of just "we hate Bush" 24 hours a day. I don't think that will work.
WHITFIELD: All right. Matthew Felling, thanks very much. I think I said "RNC" when I really meant to say "DNC," the Democratic National...
FELLING: Oh.
WHITFIELD: ...Chariman.Thanks very much, Matthew. Appreciate it.
FELLING: All right. Have a good one.
WHITFIELD: Well, the price you pay for getting sick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My whole world had been turned completely upside down. We'd lost our business. My husband wasn't going to be the same again.
(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: How hospitals rely on the uninsured to help cover their losses. Why the cost of treatment depends on who's footing the bill.
And still to come, NASA's latest attempt to change travel as we know it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Here are the headlines at this moment. A Florida national guard soldier that refused to return to Iraq has been charged with desertion and he'll face courtmartial. Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia served five months in Iraq before returning on a two-week leave. He plans to seek conscience objector status.
Under pressure from protesters, Taiwan's president says he'll meet monday with the opponent and accept the results of a recount. A half million people clogged the streets of the capital today to protest what they see as a flawed presidential vote.
And New York is threatening to fine Donald Trump over a banner he hosted on his Fifth Avenue building. It reads, "you're fired," his signature line from "The Apprentice." The city says Trump didn't get permission to hang the banner. Trump says officials should thank him for bringing in tourists.
Well, here's a fact you may not know. When you get sick, there are often three different prices to get you well again. If you're on medicare, your treatment will cost you one price. If you have medical insurance, you'll get a different rate. But if you're uninsured and you get sick, look out. Those with no coverage are often slapped with bills that are astronomicly higher than charged to the other two groups.
Here's Peter Viles of what can happen when Americans 44 million uninsured go to the hospital.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ed and Dianna are paying the price for a trip to the hospital two years ago. Suffering from encephalitis, a viral infection, Ed was hospitalized 17 days.
DIANNA JELLISON, UNINSURED PATIENT: My whole world had been turned completely upside down. We lost our business. My husband wasn't going to be the same again. Everything had changed.
VILES: They paid $30,000 in doctor's bills and then another bill came from Florida hospital, $116,000. The Jellison's had no insurance. If they did -- the insurance company would have been charged a fraction of that amount.
D. JELLISON: It makes me very mad, very mad.
VILES: But that's the way hospital billing works. List prices are wildly inflated but insurance companies don't pay the high prices, only the uninsured do.
K.B. FORBES, WWW.CONSEJOHELP.OGR: It is outragous, that they price gouge a working class, middle class family here in the United States. It is all about greed. All they wanted to do is suck out the hard earned assets of the family.
VILES: These are cases they're analyzed. An (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the bill to medicare is 10,000, To an insurance company, 12,000, but if you're uninsured, 29,000. A broken leg, costs medicare 4,800, cost an insurance company 5,400, cost if you have no insurance, $15,000.
Still the hospital industry says it loses money treating the uninsured.
CARMELA COYLE, AMERICAN HOSPITAL ASSN.: We have 44 million americans who have no health insurance coverage at all. And, while they come to America's hospital emergency departments and receive care, there is no payment that's ultimately received for many of those patient.
VILES: The point man of the Bush administration pointman on this, Tommy Thompson is urging hospitals for discounts to the uninsured and hospitals are doing so.
Peter Viles, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: So why does the healthcare system charge different rates to different people?
With me now from Las Vegas is K.B. Forbes with the Council of United Latinos, a group to help the poor and uninsured and from Tallahassee, Florida, we are joined by Ralph Glassfelter, he's senior lobbyist with the Florida Health Association.
Good to see both of you.
FORBES: Good to see you.
RALPH GLATFELTER, FLORDIA HEALTH ASSOCIATION: Thank you for the opportunity.
WHITFIELD: Great. Thanks for being with us.
K.B. let me begin with you.
What's the explanation that any healthcare provider give to why rates would be discounted for those insured as opposed to those without insurance?
FORBES: You cannot defend the indefensible. I mean, basically, what's happening is the uninsured making up 2 or 3 percent of the patient base are being charged four or five or even some cases six times more than what the hospital would accept as payment in full from an insurance company. The bottom line is greed. Not only that, they send a ruthless collector and aggressive attorneys to go after these people. And let me explain for your viewers, when we talk about the uninsured, we are not talking about charity care. We are not the poor. What we're talking about is middle class Americans like the Jellisons. Not poor enough to qualify for charity care medicare and yet not healthier or wealthy enough to have insurance. And the hospital haves a niche market where they can suck up the hard earned assets placing liens on the homes, garnishing the wages, harrasing the over the phone. It is deplorable behavior and the hospitals have to stop.
OK, well, Ralph, let me jump in.
How can you defend this practice?
GLATFELTER: Hospitals charge all patients the same using an uniformed billing schedule. What is different with regard to HMOs and PPOs is that hospitals negotiate discounts. Those discounts are based on volume, pure and simple. The more patients, the greater discount. Now, what we have done in the state of florida with regard to the uninsured, the Florida Hospital Association is the first and only association of hospitals in this country to come forward and seek legislation which would require every single hospital in this state to offer discount to the uninsured. And that discount would have to apply to uninsured floridans with incomes up to $55,000 a year. Now, the effective rate of that discount once it is implemented throughout the state of Florida, we believe the effective rate of that discount will be 90 percent off of what billed charges. Now, that's three or four times the discount to HMOs or PPOs.
WHITFIELD: That's great for Florida. Why isn't that a practice -- model for the practice across the country?
GLATFELTER: I think hospitals are looking at what happens here in Florida and I would expect something similar to this to take place throughout the nation. The question that I have, the real issue here is why -- what are we going to do as a nation with the 44 million people who are uninsured?
Here in Florida, one out of every five of our citizens under the age of 65 are uninsured. And a challenge that I would have for Mr. Forbes is why isn't he and his organization coming forward with one recommendation to provide additional health insurance for Florida's and the nation's uninsured in that is the core issue.
WHITFIELD: Well, I'll let you respond to that.
FORBES: Let me first of all say we're here to help the uninsured price gouged. Let me talk about the Florida Hospital Association plan, legislation as they call it. Their proposal is nothing more than a price gouging protection act. What they say is that if you're at 301 percent of poverty level, we will price gouge. If you are not, we won't.
GLATFELTER: That is just not true.
FORBES: They are legalizing price gouging. It is true. And on top of that, you have to qualify. If your bill, you have assets of more than 50 percent of the bill...
GLATFELTER: That's not true.
FORBES: No, let me speak, Ralph. Because you're doing everything to protect you're behavior.
WHITFIELD: So what is the solution than?
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: ... your proposing a completely different figure offered?
(CROSSTALK)
FORBES: Yes. Let me tell you what has been done. Let me tell you what has been done in Florida, Fredericka. Tenet Healthcare, the second largest hospital chain in America, they did the same thing like the Florida Hospital Association. Deny, disputed, did everything in their power to avoid the topic. But they finally sat down with after a year...
WHITFIELD: What's the offer?
FORBES: They're offering the uninsured the prices as managed care patients. That means when you walk into a Tenet hospital, you will be charged the same price as insured person regardless of your race, regardless of your ethnicity and regardless of your income. It makes good sense. These hospitals also complain that, well, the uninsured don't pay. Well, if you charge them a reasonable rate and reasonable payment plans, your income will increase. And Tenet saw the light. I mean, for the Florida Hospital Association to sit on national TV and try to justify this behavior, the horrific collection activities like the Jellisons.
WHITFIELD: OK, we are running out of time. You'll have to wrap it up.
FORBES: OK, let me just say, right now and today, we are calling on all hospitals to start charging the uninsured the same rate. If the Jellisons had been charged the rates like an insurane they would only have been charged $20,000.
WHITFIELD: OK. K.B. Forbes, and Ralph Glatfelter.
FORBES: OK. Thanks a lot. And we're winning on this issue and thank you, Fredericka, for your time.
WHITFIELD: Well, Ralph, let you can have the last word real quick.
GLATFELTER: Mr. Forbes knows as well as I do that the discounts that we are proposing here in this state of Florida, the effective discount rate will be three, four and five times greater than the discount that is are provided times more...
FORBES: But you're charging the people five to 600 percent more.
GLATFELTER: I don't know what else...
(CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: I appreciate it. Ralph Glatfelter, thanks very much to both you gentleman for joining us.
GLATFELTER: Thank you.
FORBES: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: A washington state man is phasing criminal charges for allegedly having unprotected sex. Find out what is at issue.
Plus, a piece of mail puts a city in Kansas on edge and prompts police to revisit an unsolved crime spree. That story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: People in tranquil, Midwestern city of Wichita, Kansas reliving a nightmare marked by the BTK, that stands for "bind, torture and kill," a monoker of a serial killer. A string of such unsolved killing in Whichita date back more than a quarter of a century. Now, the killer may have returned.
CNN's Jonathan Freed has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The people of Wichita had allowed themselves to move on, to push the images of the bodies from their minds. But an old demon has pushed his way back into their lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This communique most likely came from BTK.
FREED: The BTK strangler is connected to seven murders, mostly women attacked in their homes between 1974 and '79. He toyed with police, sending letters, claiming responsibility for the crimes, even giving himself his infamous nickname.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: BTK stands for bind, torture, and kill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FREED: He wasn't heard from for 25 years. Then, last week, "The Wichita Eagle" newspaper received a letter containing a photocopy of the driver's license of a 1986 murder victim, Vickie Wegerle, along with pictures of her body. Victim number eight.
Richard LaMunyon was chief of police back in the '70s. RICHARD LAMUNYON, FORMER WICHITA POLICE CHIEF: I think it's unprecedented. I don't know of any -- personally, I don't have any knowledge where it's ever happened like this before.
FREED: Why break a quarter-century of silence? We asked a psychiatrist who was involved in the investigation.
HOWARD BROOSKY, PSYCHIATRIST: Has he recently gone through some kind of a life change, like a divorce, where he feels like stirring up something? Has he returned to the community after being incarcerated?
FREED: Whatever the killer's motive, he has piqued emotion in Wichita. Some stores have sold out of MACE. Alarm companies are getting more calls. And listen to a woman who lives around the corner from the site of the first attack in 1974.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought about it when I went to sleep last night, made sure that I double-checked every single window in the house, as did most of the people I've talked to.
FREED (on camera): Police have samples of the killer's DNA, and they're hoping that modern techniques and a little luck will eventually lead them to a match.
Jonathan Freed, CNN, Wichita, Kansas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Now, the latest on some other stories making news across America.
Police in Olympia, Washington have arrested a HIV positive man for allegedly having unprotected sex with numerous partners. Anthony Whitfield, no relation, in the jail charged with three counts of assault.
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger asking for leniency in the case against Pamela Martinez. She served prison time for petty crimes to feed a drug habit. Well, since the release almost three years ago, reformed her life and holds a steady job. But the state says her sentence was not calculated properly and wants her back in jail for another 65 days.
Authorities in Connecticut say they'll have to spend 11 million dollars in federal money to fix a bridge on Interstate 95 in Bridgeport, a portion of that major artery is closed since a fiery truck crash melted the bridge structure Thursday night.
Seven times a speed of sound, that's the gold of an unmanned NASA test program for the X-43 craft, launching from beneath a B-52 bomber. It use ago exotic engine, called a scram (ph) jet. One day it might be used in space flight.
With the daffodils outside, blossoming ideas about the next vacation. Once the spectacular option, a Grand Canyon. We'll talk to an expert about what you need to know before heading to the natural wonder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helmets are the fastest growing segment of the ski and snow board business. Why, because for the first time they're light and protective. And guess what, they are not even hot. The reason is simple, polycarbonates have entered the business. This is ultra hard, that is excellent for protection. There are also holes in the top here. That means that moisture and heat can vent right out. The other thing, this thing weighs about 380 grams, about equivalent to about 15, 16 sheets of paper if you're counting. Why is that helpful? Because if you doing inverted moves, going upside down, you don't have a big heavy thing on the rock. Does that help the average skier, no. But just in case, your protected, it's light and you're comfortable. Use your head.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Yearning to explore one of the world's natural wonders?
Look no further than the good old Grand Canyon in Arizona. It is still one of the top travel spot in the U.S.
With more insight on the big ditch, we turn to John Annerino, a contributor to "National Geographic." He joins us on the phone. He's author of "The Grand Canyon Wild."
All right, John.
JOHN ANNERINO, TRAVEL WRITER: How are you doing today?
WHITFIELD: I'm doing great. No need to go abroad to check out the wonderful natural beauty of other countries, we've got it right here.
Is the Grand Canyon still as popular of a place for family vacations as it once was?
ANNERINO: More popular than ever. 4.5 million people visited the Grand Canyon last year. It's one of the seven natural wonders of the world.
WHITFIELD: And there's so much to do. Not just a matter of standing at a vista and looking over. I understand there are things such as, you know, white water rafting, as well as donkey riding. You see I haven't been to the Grand Canyon yet.
What are the activities that folks can take advantage of?
ANNERINO: So many things to do. You can greet the day with a canyon sun rise and prayer stroll at rim trails. A day hike over the edge of the Canyon rim. Backpack down to the Colorado River along the rustic trails. You can take that mule ride. They're not donkeys down at the (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
WHITFIELD: And what kind of...
ANNERINO: The Cowboys Steak and Beans.
WHITFIELD: And what kind of efforts are in space to make sure that people do respect, you know, the natural beauty around them and don't, you know, abuse it by the heavy traffic that seems to be taking place there every year?
ANNERINO: Well, the park is well regulated by natural history rangers, law enforcement rangers, rescue ranger and river that really take care to enlighten people how to see the Grand Canyon safely.
WHITFIELD: Best time of year to go in your opinion?
ANNERINO: Best time if you hike fall or spring, summer's far too hot. Rafting, cool off in the summertime. Driving, before and after summer crowds.
WHITFIELD: Now, what about accommodations?
ANNERINO: Accommodations, the Grand Canyon especially has three unique rustic lodges. The El Tovar, and the Bright Angel on the south rim and the Grand Canyon Lodge on the north rim. You can roll out your bed roll and tent at one of many campgrounds.
WHITFIELD: OK. So, what would be your best recommendation?
Do you think if you do the Canyon, you need to try to camp out?
ANNERINO: No, you don't. That depends on what your interests are. You can camp or bed and breakfast.
WHITFIELD: Not bad at all. John Annerino, thanks very much, of National Geographics Adventure. Thanks for joining us on the telephone.
ANNERINO: Thank you very much.
WHITFIELD: Planning or spring celebration and summer is too hot for the Grand Canyon.
From a rescue to a cave rescue in Mexico, to a show down, at the U.S. Supreme Court, it's been a week of amazing of amazing pictures. We'll show you some of the best ones after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: It's a busy week in the news bringing many memorable images and including some you may have missed. Here's a look back at the week of pictures.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: A show down at the U.S. Supreme court. Hundreds of people pro, and con, demonstrate over the phrase "under god" in the pledge. In Iraq, fighting an oil fire. Thousands of gallons spilled and ignited in a massive fire ball. The suspected cause, poor maintenance, not terrorism.
In Rome, a fanned riot forced the suspension of a soccer match. Huge crowds confronted police after a rumor spread that a young boy was killed by authorities outside the stadium.
Trapped inside a cave. Six british explorers spend a week inside a flooded Mexican cavern before being rescued in Thursday. They're in hot water with authorities who suspect they were in the country illegally.
Surfer Bethamey Hamilton continues to overcome the devastating disability. She's a 14-year-old whose arm was ripped off by a shark months ago. Last weekend, she took part in the third competition since the attack reaching the semi finals.
The U.S. Olympic sailing finals are being hold off the coast of Miami. Sailors are fighting the clock and 30 knot wind which wrecked havoc on the boats.
A field of flowers in California, in full bloom in, Carlsbad, California. The landscape is open to the public each year from March to May.
So much more on CNN Saturday.
In a few moments, "IN THE MONEY".
At 2:00 Eastern, CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Indepth on the gasoline price crunch, and what can be done to ease your pain at the pump.
At 3:00, "NEXT @ CNN" looks at clues to a Mars mission.
But first Susan Lisovicz with a preview of "IN THE MONEY."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks.
Coming up, rethinking the fight against terrorism. We'll look at a tactic to sting the suspects.
Plus, no pain, no gain. Find out about an insurance scam where doctors allegedly paid their patients.
And Coca-Cola bottled water tanks in Europe. See how the stock is doing. All that after a check of the headlines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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