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CNN Live Saturday

Interview With Amy Katz; Americans Killed In Boat Explosion In Basra; Abortions Rights Activists Protests In Front Of Vatican Embassy Today

Aired April 24, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN SATURDAY is ahead, but first I've got these headlines.
Three boats exploded in the Iraq port city of Basra. We now know that Americans were killed in this attack. We don't know if it specifically was a suicide attack or an accident. The U.S. Navy did confirm to us moments ago that two American sailors were killed after they boarded one of the suspicious vessels. At least four other Americans are injured. We are hoping to learn more details in this hour from the Navy, so stay right there.

In the meantime in Washington, there's extra tight security this weekend. Protesters are taking to the streets as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank hold their annual meeting. Demonstrators are calling for more effective global reform in fighting poverty and AIDS.

Also in Washington, a different kind of protest. Pro-life and pro-choice demonstrators are outside the Vatican's embassy. It follows yesterday's statement by a Catholic cardinal who said Catholic politicians who support legal abortion should not be given communion.

I'm Carol Linn and welcome to CNN SATURDAY. Coming up, the photograph seen across America and the debate it ignited. Tami Salicio took the picture and one of her closest friends got that infamous picture published. We will talk with her about the fallout and threats because of that photo. And the question whether Americans should see the flag-draped caskets.

But right now, up first this hour on an especially bloody day in Iraq. A somber reminder that the Afghan war is not over. Tributes today for Pat Tillman, the former NFL star, killed in Afghanistan. Pat Tillman walked away from a multimillion dollar football contract to join the Army. He was killed in an ambush in east Afghanistan Thursday. Today, the 2004 National Football League draft began with a moment of silence for all the courageous men and women deployed around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please join me in a moment of silence in memory of all those men and women, all those heroes, who have given their lives for all of us. Thank you.

CROWD: USA! USA! USA! USA! (END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Pat Tillman's home state is mourning the 27-year-old who left the grid iron to fight the war on terror. CNN's Miguel Marquez is in Tempe, Arizona, right now.

Miguel, there must be some mixed feelings there knowing that Pat Tillman went because he had such a sense of patriotism for his country.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that certainly is what gives this story such an edge and you know, deepens the sorrow for so people here. And even though he wasn't from here, he's from California; they believe that he is a hometown son here. This -- we're at Sun Devil Stadium where he spent his entire career here in Arizona both as a Sun Devil with ASU and as a Cardinal. They share a stadium here. And people have been coming all day, person after person, coming up to a makeshift memorial here at the victory bell at Sun Devil Stadium, dropping off flags, flowers, candles, saying a little prayer for Tillman and his family. This is a guy whose memory and name will be etched into Arizona and national history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Went on the move, intercepted by Pat Tillman.

MARQUEZ, (voice-over): Before the fame and money of the National Football League, before 9/11, before he made the decision to join the war on terror, along with his brother Kevin who played minor league baseball, a picture of Pat Tillman from scrawny freshman to senior star.

RICH WERNER, ASSOCIATE HEAD STRENGTH COACH: He was small. He was undersized, underweight.

MARQUEZ: Rich Werner worked on building Tillman's weight for four years at Arizona State University. In his final year as a Sun Devil, Tillman was named defensive player of the year.

WERNER: Pat is the type of guy that did he could do make up for his physical abilities, you know, with his heart and superior condition, the guy was in unbelievable shape.

MARQUEZ: What was it like going up against this guy in practice?

RICKY BOYER, FMR. ASU WIDE RECEIVER: Hell on two feet.

MARQUEZ: Ricky Boyer was a Sun Devil wide receiver. And in practice, every time first string went up against first string, Ricky Boyer went up against Pat Tillman.

BOYER: Pat was fast. He was strong, especially for his size. And like I said, he was scrappy and he would never quit on any play.

MARQUEZ: For the man who's would never quit, the ultimate sign of sports respect. His Sun Devil number 42 will be retired at end of the season. Conner Banks, the 21-year-old defensive end says he wanted to wear the number because he followed Pat Tillman's career since high school.

CONNER BANKS, DEFENSIVE END, SUN DEVILS: It's a great honor to be able to wear number 42 for the last time. And I feel just so much pride.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: So his Arizona ASU number, number 42, will be retired. His Cardinal number will also be retired, which is number 40. And when the Cardinals play in their own stadium in 2006, the area around it will be renamed for Pat Tillman, the Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza. And the good stories about him, not about his death certainly, but about his life continue on and on -- Carol.

LIN: All right, thank you very much. Miguel Marquez reporting live from Tempe.

Well, we've spent so much time talking about the war in Iraq. There is another war obviously going on, the war on terror in Afghanistan. And we thought it'd be interesting to take a look at the latest facts there. For example, there are still 15,000 American troops in Afghanistan. Most of the troops are helping train the Afghan army and some are hunting Taliban remnants and other threats. Eighty Americans have died in Afghanistan so far. Our Nic Robertson explores the reaction to the death of an American football player.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pat Tillman, time winding down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The move intercepted by Pat Tillman. Tillman went...

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Patrick Tillman, football star, turned Army Ranger hero, remembered at U.S bases in the country where he was killed.

SPEC. ROSALYN RIOS, U.S. ARMY: It was just shocking because he is an American hero, as we all are because we are all, you know, here.

ROBERTSON: His Ranger unit, seen here, during a recent mission, was according to the Army on a joint patrol with Afghan forces, close to the border with Pakistan when they were attacked just as the sun was setting.

LT. COL. MATTHEW BEEVERS, COALITION SPOKESMAN: The enemy size unknown at this time, still kind of working through some of the details on that. That said, again, they were ambushed. They dismounted. They moved towards the ambush. The fire fight ensued and that's when Specialist Tillman was killed.

ROBERTSON: A few other details of the incident released at a coalition briefing except that Tillman's two injured colleagues now reported stable. Along the Border Mountains, near the latest ambush, troops report attacks on the coalition and its Afghan allies have increased.

Two weeks ago, parachute infantry troops were ambushed in the same area. The attackers, not for the first time according to the troops, pulling back beyond the coalition reach to sanctuary inside Pakistan. Hope here, Tillman's killing not in vain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, it brings light to the -- you know hopefully to all Americans that see and hear about it that, yes, there are still people over here. There are still Americans military and civilians as well that are here still fighting, you know, for the cause.

ROBERTSON (on camera): In death, Patrick Tillman reaffirmed what he achieved in life, a respect for his sense of honor, duty and patriotism, but perhaps more importantly for the soldiers here, he has cast the spotlight back on a forgotten corner of the war on terrorism.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right. We, in fact, right now do have more information on this breaking news story out of Basra in Iraq. The U.S. Navy have confirmed that two Americans were killed when they went to go and investigate a suspicious boat docked at a major oil terminal in the Persian Gulf at Basra. Four other Americans were wounded.

Right now, on the telephone with me is the deputy public affairs officer for the 5th Fleet, which covers the Persian Gulf. Her name is Lieutenant Colonel Lisa Brackenbury.

Lieutenant colonel, can you hear me?

LT. CMDR. LISA BRACKENBURY: Yes, I can, and thank you for the promotion. I'm actually a lieutenant commander in the Navy.

LIN: All right, Lieutenant Commander, thank you very much for joining us. Do you know yet whether this was an act of terrorism or was it an accident?

BRACKENBURY: No, I don't think I could confirm that at this time.

LIN: Tell me what happened.

BRACKENBURY: Well, we have a boarding team was on its way to go board an unidentified DOWL that was approaching the core (UNINTELLIGIBLE) oil terminal in the northern Arabian Gulf. And as they approached the DOWL, they were in a small boat. The DOWL exploded and it slipped over the boat that they were in and they -- it threw them all in the water. It killed two U.S. Navy sailors and wounded four. The total number of people in the boarding team was seven.

LIN: What -- and after that -- actually, after that explosion, there were two subsequent explosions on two other boats? BRACKBURY: Yes.

LIN: Does this sound like to you that this was indeed suspicious and likely an act of terror? Does it look like an accident to you?

BRACKENBURY: One could reach that conclusion. However, we don't have any, you know, proof of that yet.

LIN: What made the boat suspicious to this team?

BRACKENBURY: Again, don't have a lot of details on that right now. We're obviously looking into it. And hopefully, we'll be able to find out more later.

LIN: Can you tell me what the normal procedure would be in a situation like this? What was the likely scenario? Who called them? How were they dispatched? What were they told about the assignment?

BRACKENBURY: All we know right now is the -- there was a coalition -- there are a variety of coalition vessels in the area. One of them -- crew members from one of the vessels observed this DOWL. And they saw it going towards the terminal and so they launched a boarding team to intercept.

LIN: All right. Intercept what sort of weaponry were they armed with?

BRACKENBURY: Right, to board the DOWL, which is basically a small fishing boat. I don't have details on that right now, either.

LIN: All right. Last question, Lieutenant. Did it look like it was heading for the oil terminal or did it look like it was heading for the crew itself?

BRACKENBURY: They just told us that the DOWL was approaching the oil terminal.

LIN: OK. All right. Thank you very much.

BRACKENBURY: Sure.

LIN: Lieutenant Colonel Lisa Brackenbury with the 5th Fleet out of Bahrain.

Let's go to our Baghdad bureau chief, Jane Araff who's reporting to us now from Baghdad.

Jane, what have you learned so far about what happened out there?

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: It was a day punctuated by violence. North of Baghdad, in Taji, about 12 miles, 20 kilometers north at a 1st Cavalry Division U.S. Army base, rockets slammed into the base just before dawn. Five U.S. soldiers were killed and six wounded, three of them critically in the attack, according to officials. They say attack helicopters destroyed a truck that launched the rockets, but it's not clear whether they got the people who launched them as well.

And here in Baghdad, on what should have been a placid morning, in a market place in the Shia neighborhood of Sadr City, a mortar attack killed between six and 12 people, according to officials and wounded up to 38, some of them children. The mortar attack was near a U.S. Army base, but it's not clear what that target was.

And in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, another explosion there, this one a homemade bomb outside the base. Two Iraqi policemen and two civilians killed, more than a dozen wounded. No U.S. casualties in that one.

And Fallujah, west of Baghdad, a flashpoint of violence there. The U.S. warning that time is running out. Military spokesman, General Mark Kimmitt said that parties to the cease-fire had not lived up to their end of the agreement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: We also are looking at bringing out of Fallujah those that are trying to hijack that sovereignty for Fallujah: the foreign fighters, the former Saddam Fedayeen, the Mahabharat, who don't want to see Iraqi control in that city. But we will continue to talk. We will continue to try to settle this peacefully, but our patience is not limitless. And our patience is not eternal. Should there not be a good faith effort demonstrated by the belligerence inside of Fallujah, the coalition is prepared to act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARRAF: Fallujah threatens to be not just a flash point for violence, but according to mosque, Amans and people in the streets, something that could ignite uprisings across the country if Marines make good their threat to take that entire city. They say that cease-fire is shaky because insurgents keep firing at them. And the U.S. military spokesman says that attacks these days are ranging at up to 42 a day against U.S. and Iraqi targets. Incredibly, that's lower than it was a few weeks ago. He says it's too soon to tell whether that trend will continue.

Jane Araff, CNN, reporting from Baghdad.

LIN: All right. Jane did a pretty good job there of summing up how violent not only this day was, but just the recent past weeks. But the U.S. led coalition seems determined not let the relentless violence prevent a power transfer giving Iraq limited control on June 30th. Here is CNN's White House correspondent Dana Bash.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the U.S. military works to control the situation in Fallujah, U.S. and U.N. officials are finalizing details on plans to hand over governing power in little more than two months.

DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: We continue to consult widely with Iraqis on the shape of the interim government.

BASH: The U.S. is relying on U.N. Lakdar Brahimi to crack the temporary Iraqi government until elections are held, they hope in January 2005. U.S. officials say Brahimi's interim government plan now consists of a prime minister aided by a council of ministers and a president and two vice presidents aided by an advisory body.

The caretaker government will not have the power to pass new laws, officials say, because that will be saved for democratically- elected leaders. The coalition-appointed Iraqi governing council will be dissolved June 30. Brahimi says they have had difficulty gaining legitimacy among the people and many will not be asked back.

All opinion polls and a lot are taken in Iraq say that people want something different, Brahimi said in an interview with ABC News. "The fear is that, you know, as somebody put it, perhaps too unkindly, they will clone themselves and why you to want to have that?" One high profile governing council member, sources say, is most likely to be part of an interim government; one Bush officials relied heavily on the past, Ahmed Chalabi. His pre-war predictions about weapons of mass destruction and promises the U.S. would be greeted as liberators have not panned out. Several senior U.S. officials say a slew of what they consider inflammatory statements since have left Chalabi out of favor.

Even with the respected U.N. diplomat leading the way, U.S. officials concede convincing Iraqis to support an unelected interim government, one without authority over someone some 135,000 coalition troops in Iraq will be a challenge. But they say consider the alternative.

MARC GROSSMAN, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE: This is the way out of this corner that we're currently in and that corner we're currently in is called it's all the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And a senior U.S. official says plans are in the works for a PR campaign to try to sell Iraqis on a temporary government and urge patience until national elections can be held. As Lakdar Brahimi put it, the biggest enemy now is misunderstanding.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much. Dana Bash live at the White House.

Well, a different kind of military story coming up. Donald Rumsfeld is inspiring a few songwriters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unknown unknowns.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right. It turns out the defense secretary's speeches are so quirky, they are making music. Hear what Donald Rumsfeld has to say about a new CD. Plus, the anatomy of a fire fight. How do U.S. troops survive when the bullets are flying for hours on end? And later, they're photos that sparked a major controversy. Hear from the woman who's behind the published flag-draped coffin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Well, it's been another violent week for American troops fighting insurgents in Fallujah where a shaky cease-fire and fierce fighting continue. A television news crew was witness to one of those battles in Fallujah. Here is CNN's Michael Shoulder.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL SHOULDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When dawn broke in the Sunni Muslim city of Fallujah, the men of the 1st Marine Division were fighting for their lives again. On the roof of their compound, as other Marines fanned out through the neighborhoods, these Marines try to locate where the insurgents are firing from. One commander identifies a target.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That black window on the end.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice!

SHOULDER: From the alleys below, word that some Marines have been separated from their platoon and are fighting to reconnect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, Segment 2 has four guys separated from the main body and they're cut off by fire.

SHOULDER: The Arabic blasting over the last speakers is an American recording demanding the insurgents lay down their weapons. The recording is ignored.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lower.

SHOULDER: The Marines move out into the unprotected maze of streets below. This is urban warfare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go. Go.

SHOULDER: Move too slow, they could be sitting ducks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep moving.

SHOULDER: Move too fast, this could run into a trap.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Slow it down. Slow it down. Spread it out.

SHOULDER: The Marines say their 1st Division has lost at least 44 men this month alone and that today three of their men were wounded and nine insurgents killed. By 10:30 in the morning in Fallujah, four hours after the Marines first came under attack, the shooting stopped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're the last team to go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are we going to hold right here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, sir.

SHOULDER: A morning of urban warfare in a city the Americans and insurgents see as key to the future of Iraq.

Michael Shoulder, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Here to explain the key tactics behind fire fights like the one we just saw is Retired U.S. Army Colonel Patrick Lang, who served in Vietnam, was a senior military officer in North Yemen and Saudi Arabia and head of Mid East intelligence at the Department of Defense.

Thank you very much for being with us today, Colonel.

RET. COL. PATRICK LANG, U.S. ARMY: My pleasure.

LIN: Give me a quick definition of a fire fight. How is a fire fight different than just battle?

LANG: Well, a fire fight, gun battle, you can call it whatever you like. What you have in a situation like the one you just saw is that in any sort of engagement like that of infantry, you have one group of people who will do some shooting to try to pin the enemy down, keep his head down and keep him from shooting at your other people while another group of your friendlies maneuver around the ground toward the enemy until they get close enough to assault them. Sometimes you have to do this two or three times in alternating steps with one group supporting the other. And when you have bigger unit engagements, sometimes you'll have artillery fire from a distance to provide the fire and you can move all your infantry at once.

LIN: All right. Let's...

LANG: It's a standard thing.

LIN: Everything is better with pictures. Let me roll some videotape and take a look at this and tell me what specifically is going on here. This is a scene out of the fighting, a fire fight in Fallujah from this past Wednesday.

LANG: Yes, what you see there is, as I said, you divide your unit up. And this is a squad that's been divided in half of about 10 or 11 men. You put five or six of them on shoot at the enemy to keep their heads down so that the rest of your fellows can go out on the street and move around toward them without being shot at by the enemy. In order to keep the enemy from shooting at you, you have to put fire on him and the more fire you can put on him, the better off you are and less likely you are to take casualties.

LIN: Colonel, it looks like one of the soldiers was wounded with a bloody shoulder and he's still up there.

LANG: Yes, in this case, just looking at that film, I would say that he got nicked in the arm a bit because -- it probably isn't too bad because there isn't a great deal of blood and if you're hit severely in the arm, he would be sitting on the floor there looking for somebody to do something about it.

LIN: These troops have endured these kinds of fire fights day in and day out for days on end in the Sunni Triangle. What sort of -- what sort of endurance does that take and how much of it is physical and how much of it is mental?

LANG: Actually, it is mostly mental, really. All the business they do in the Marine Corps boot camp, as we have all seen in movies, and some people have experienced it, in fact, is designed to condition you to the idea that this kind of experience is what you do in life. That's your job.

LIN: This kind of experience of being shot at?

LANG: Well, that's your job. You're a soldier. That's what soldiers are for. And these fellows are accustomed to that by now and they depend on their comrades. They have a lot of pride in their unit. And they can put up with this for a great deal longer than you might think possible.

LIN: All right, but what are the risks? As a commanding officer, what you to have to watch out for with your men on the line?

LANG: Well, you don't want to lose any of them. And in order to do that, you have to do your job as best you possibly can, get them all the fire support you can, make sure they're well supplied, set a good example yourself, obviously, show them that you're sharing the risk, that they're enduring with them, and then just hope for the best because you can't, in every case, ensure that somebody's not going to get hurt because people do.

LIN: All right. Colonel Lang, we had some breaking news today, a boat explosion, three boat explosions actually. Two American sailors and four others, well, two American sailors killed and four others wounded. What do you make of what happened today? What do you think happened?

LANG: Well, the attack north of Baghdad on the 1st Cavalry Division compound, I think, is a -- not a routine attack by fire by the insurgents trying to keep our people pinned down in their compounds.

LIN: But it's a new strategy, isn't it? I mean are they loading? Do you think this was an act of terrorism where the insurgents loaded a boat with explosives with the intent on killing American sailors? LANG: Now, that's different. We haven't seen that in Iraq so far. But it seems the insurgents are following a strategy of trying to impede the reconstruction of the country. And what better thing to do from their point-of-view than to attack the oil terminal down there in order to raise the insurance rates on tankers and make crews of tankers unwilling to work down there and that kind of thing. It fits in the kind of pattern of their evolving war against the reconstruction and against roads and lines of communication, and transportation, in the country.

LIN: Why haven't...

LANG: It actually fits into that.

LIN: Why haven't we seen this before? Why haven't we seen this before then in the last...

LANG: Well, I think the insurgency is developing. It has been developing from an initial start in which there were small groups of people attacking more or less simultaneously along roads, against convoys and things like that. And now, you have larger and larger engagements and the thing that's going on in Fallujah, I think, in which the insurgents are having a good time playing at negotiating with the Marines is encouraging these people around the country to keep ratcheting up the level of resistance, at bigger and bigger kinds of operations. So I don't think it's surprising that it's developing that way.

LIN: All right, developing indeed. We may see it again. Thank you very much, Colonel Patrick Lang.

LANG: Sure.

LIN: Support from a friend may have cost one woman her job and sparked a sea of controversy. Still to come, I'm going to be talking to the lady who submitted these photos to "The Seattle Times."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Much more ahead, but first let's look at the hour's top stories.

Five U.S. troops are dead and another six wounded after a rocket attack today on their base north of Baghdad.

Also, boat attacks off the southern coast of Iraq killed two U.S. Navy sailors. It happened when three boats exploded shortly before a coalition team was about to board one of the suspicious vessels. Four other U.S. sailors were wounded in that attack.

Track star, Marion Jones seen here with ex-husband C.J. Hunter, denies knowledge of a check from her bank account reportedly written to the owner of a California lab. The lab is at the center of an illegal steroid investigation. "The New York Times" reports people familiar with the check say it was signed by Hunter before the 2000 Olympics. Testing showed Hunter had high levels of illegal steroids in his system.

The San Diego Chargers chose Eli Manning to kick off today's NFL draft. The 23-year-old former University of Mississippi quarterback had vowed to sit out a season rather than play for the Chargers. But the situation was quickly resolved when the Chargers traded him to the New York Giants.

Activists on both sides of the abortion issue protested outside the Vatican's embassy in Washington today. The protest followed Friday's statement by a Catholic cardinal who said Catholic politicians who support legal abortion should not be given communion. More protests are on the way.

A major women's rights rally is scheduled to be held tomorrow in Washington.

Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry is also embroiled in the abortion rights debate. Many think a cardinal statement this week saying that Catholic politicians who support abortion should be denied communion was directed at him. Here is our Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Washington, John Kerry, the Catholic, touts his support of abortion rights.

JOHN KERRY, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going to have a change of leadership in this country to protect the right of choice.

WALLACE: While at the Vatican, a top cardinal speaks out. When Cardinal Francis Arinze was asked if a Catholic politician who supports abortion rights should be denied communion, he told reporters -- quote -- "the person is not fit. If he shouldn't receive it, then it shouldn't be given." But when pressed about Kerry, the cardinal would only say "the Catholic Church exists in the United States. There are bishops there. Let them interpret it."

The cardinal appeared to be expressing his own views as there is no official Vatican policy on the issue. Two weeks ago, Senator Kerry defended his beliefs.

KERRY: And I fully intend to continue to practice my religion as separately from what I do with respect to my public life.

WALLACE: Days later, Kerry received communion during Easter mass, angering some American Catholics who believe he should pay a price for his views on abortion rights. The issue now in the hands of a task force of bishops headed by Cardinal McCarrick, the archbishop of Washington, D.C., who Kerry asked to meet with last week.

Catholics opposed to abortion rights say the Vatican cardinal's comments should encourage American bishops to sanction the senator while abortion right supporters in the church accuse Catholic bishops in the Vatican of playing politics.

FRANCES KISSLING, PRESIDENT, CATHOLICS FOR A FREE CHOICE: They just don't know what to do about the fact that a visible Catholic presidential nominee doesn't agree with them on the abortion issue.

WALLACE (on camera): The debate will continue among Catholics who make up about one-quarter of the U.S. population. As for the bishops, though, they aren't expected to make any decisions until after the presidential election.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: There's a new CD out. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: ...so eager to get the story before, in fact, the story is there, that the world is constantly being fed things that haven't happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right, we're going to explain all this because still to come, Donald Rumsfeld's briefings inspire songs. But will they make the top 40?

And it's a new effort to help you love you for who you really are. Coming up next, Oprah Winfrey looking beyond the mirror.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: We got some news across America right now. I'm going to take you to Nisswa, Minnesota. Funeral services were held today for slain college student Dru Sjodin. After a five-month search, her body was found last weekend. Volunteers who had searched for her, joined friends and family in paying their respects.

In Toledo, Ohio, a Roman Catholic priest has been charged in the 1980 stabbing death of a nun. Police say Reverend Gerald Robinson had always been a suspect, but it wasn't until the case was reopened five months ago that they were able to gather enough evidence to charge him.

In central Illinois, an explosion last night at a plastics plant killed four works and injured eight others. Evacuated residents who live near the plant were allowed to return home today. The cause of the explosion is under investigation.

All right, Oprah Winfrey is known all over the world for inspiring and motivating. Well, she's holding events to build self- esteem and body acceptance. As our Denise Belgrave reports, Winfrey's message is simple: no matter what your size, celebrate it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DENISE BELGRAVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a day for beauty, looking beautiful and feeling beautiful.

OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: Hello!

BELGRAVE: Oprah Winfrey's tour called "Hi, Gorgeous," wants women to look beyond the mirror.

WINFREY: We are the gender that allows ourselves to be picked apart.

BELGRAVE: In an age where many women believe beauty comes from a knife or from a syringe, Oprah's message seems to swim against the tide. But it is a message her fans, like mother-to-be Tyan Williamson are listening to.

TYAN WILLIAMSON, OPRAH FAN: Even me and my face right now, being pregnant, it's hard to feel gorgeous and it's hard to accept the changes that our bodies go through as we get older and even younger women.

BELGRAVE: In Atlanta's Piedmont Park, there were health specialists, beauty consultants and wellness experts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This will give you a little something to work with.

BELGRAVE: There was also a contest. Readers of "O Magazine wrote in to nominate an inspirational woman. Corporate manager, Heather Kamaka, was one of 12 women selected as role models from across the country. Bill, her college sweetheart and now her husband, wrote the winning letter.

BILL KAMAKA, NOMINATED WIFE IN CONTEST: You know when you wake up and feel like you just don't want to get out of bed sometimes. She's the kind of person that will make you say, "You know what, it's worth getting out of bed." She's awesome.

BELGRAVE: Even though her husband would disagree, this new mother doesn't always feel that way.

HEATHER KAMAKA, CONTEST WINNER: I'm just like every other woman. I'm insecure, but I try my best.

BELGRAVE (on camera): What many women see when they look in the mirror is a distorted image of themselves. What the organizers of this tour hope to achieve is that they see this, a much more realistic picture of themselves.

Denise Belgrave, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Still to come on CNN LIVE SATURDAY, photos of patriotism or captions of controversy. Up next, I'll talk to the woman who released these heart-stirring pictures to the media. And later, words from Donald Rumsfeld like you've never heard before. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Photos of flag-draped military could havens returning from Iraq are haunting, moving and against government policy. The White House says the policy protects the privacy of grieving families. Others say it's to keep the images from undermining support for the war. CNN's senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are pictures the Pentagon didn't want you to see, row on row of flag-draped coffins on their final voyage home from Iraq. The official Air Force photographs were taken for historical purposes, and released to an anti-government secrecy website, thememoryhole.org under the Freedom of Information Act. That release is now under review because it conflicts with official Pentagon policy, banning news media coverage of the return of military remains. To some, that policy seems misguided.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: The idea that this essentially snuck back into the country under the cover of night so no one can see that their casket has arrived, I just think is wrong.

MCINTYRE: Since just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War, with a few rare exceptions, the Pentagon has banned cameras at Dover Air Force Base or any place en route. Grave side coverage is permitted if the family agrees. The Pentagon insists it's not trying to cover up the war's human costs, but simply protecting the privacy of families. And it has the support of the National Military Family Association.

In a statement, the organization says, "There is no apparent consensus among families about the policy." And it believes "the current policy is sensitive to the needs of the families."

This picture published on the front page of "The Seattle Times" last Sunday showing more than 20 flag-draped coffins resulted in a contract worker losing her job. After e-mailing the picture taken earlier this month to a friend, the woman was fired along with her husband for what the contractor says was a violation of government and company regulations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Tami Salicio was the cargo worker who lost her job after sending a flag-draped coffin photo to a friend who then gave it to "The Seattle Times." That friend is Amy Katz and she joins us now from Las Vegas.

Amy, why is it that you and Tammy felt such a strong need to get this picture out? AMY KATZ, FRIEND OF PHOTOGRAPHER TAMI SILICIO: Tami felt a need to share this picture with me because she was so blown away by what she was witnessing and that she felt so much emotion that she had to share it with me, one of her best friends.

LIN: Was it your decision then to take it to the newspaper?

KATZ: Yes. And, you know, it was more a spontaneous action than even a decision. I picked up the phone. I called information. I got the photo editor of "The Seattle Times" on the phone and I said, "I have the picture that you have to see."

LIN: Do you have any regrets now? I mean Tami lost her job. Her husband has lost his job and there's been this incredible backlash from the Pentagon.

KATZ: Of course, I feel horrible for what Tami is going through. I was up most the night answering calls from her and trying to comfort her and make her feel better. But I don't regret this for one second. I would do it again a thousand times over.

LIN: You know Amy, I'm going to take off my journalistic hat just for a second to say when I saw the pictures and the news -- the audio was down, I don't know what the reporting was saying, but I saw the picture and I found it personally incredibly compelling you know. Regardless of how you may feel about the events in Iraq, I thought that the picture was incredibly -- it was compelling. It was tender. I was really struck by it. And I'm just wondering whether it was worth the backlash to you, do you think?

KATZ: You know, Tami first started writing me last summer and they were brief e-mails that would say something like, I am so sad. Today, at the airport where I worked, a body of a dead soldier came through. And the first time she wrote to me, there was only one soldier. And she wrote to me like a couple of months later and this time it was two soldiers. And a few months later, she wrote to me again and it was four.

On April 7, she wrote me an e-mail and it was one line and it said something to the extent of this time there's 22. And I opened that photo and I saw those -- the rows and rose of coffins and I just said, "Oh, my God, we are at war."

LIN: Any -- Tami had a son -- lost a son to a brain tumor. You're well aware of the government policy of not releasing these pictures because they felt it would be an intrusion on the family's grieving. Do you think that Tami would want photos of her son's remains published if that were the case, no matter how compelling or emotional or touching the picture may be? I mean do you understand what the families might be thinking or the military?

KATZ: Definitely. First of all, it wasn't a picture of their exact remains. It's a picture of their remains in a coffin covered with a flag, so I think it's important to distinguish that. Tami would want to see this. And I know because she has said so many times to me that the worst possible thing that she could imagine is being a mother who is back in the United States, who has never been in a war zone before, doesn't know what happens with the military, for them to wonder what happens to my son or daughter after they died? You know what's being done with them? Is someone treating them respectfully? And she knew how much love and respect and care the Air Force shows every single time they have a funeral. And that's what -- that was her purpose for showing this. She wanted to provide comfort to the families who wonder did my son die alone.

LIN: Any -- is Tami getting threats now that these pictures are out over the controversy?

KATZ: She feels extremely threatened. I can tell you how I feel. Somebody just showed up at my door, a man dressed in black, and he told me that he was instructed to take me somewhere and hold me there for four hours. He would not tell me -- he would not tell me who sent me -- I'm sorry, who sent him. He was with a limo service. But he said that he was instructed to take me somewhere where he wouldn't tell me where he was taking me and hold me there for four hours.

LIN: And is Tami getting the same kind of pressure?

KATZ: I -- this just happened to me on my...

LIN: I'm talking about...

KATZ: ... 15 minutes ago.

LIN: I'm also talking about Tami. Is she getting threats, too?

KATZ: Yes. She didn't describe anything like this, but she -- basically no. What she describes to me is the hundreds and hundreds of people who have been writing into "The Seattle Times," and Hal & Berry (ph) have been forwarding e-mails to us and we have been reading them. And it has wonderful support.

LIN: All right. And that is good to hear. Thank you very much, Amy. Amy Katz and we wish your friend, Tami Salicio well.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is known for his musings. Now those statements have become music. Two composers have used his words in their songs. But is the defense secretary taking offense? CNN's Jeanne Moos has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Donald Rumsfeld briefed reporters, little did he know he was writing songs.

RUMSFELD: There are known unknowns, that is to say there are things that we now know we don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know.

RUMSFELD: But there are also unknown unknowns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unknown unknowns.

MOOS: Who knew two composers, one on the West Coast, one on the East Coast, would separately put Secretary Rumsfeld's words to music.

PHIL KLINE, COMPOSER: Rumsfeld is like this singer and dancer of language. He just spins stuff. He loves it. You can tell.

MOOS: Rumsfeld's words were first collected in a book of poetry. Now poetry has become song.

RUMSFELD: Everyone is so eager to get the story before, in fact, the story is there, that the world is constantly being fed things that haven't happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The world is constantly being fed things that haven't happened.

I've become very good at keeping a straight face.

MOOS: Soprano, Eleanor Wall (ph), was asked by her composer friend, Brian Kong, to perform the Rumsfeld songs and, no, they're not fans of the defense secretary's policies.

Phil Kline even made a song out of the defense secretary's reaction to TV replays of looting in Iraq.

RUMSFELD: And it's the same picture of some person walking out of some building with a vase.

KLINE: It's the same picture of some person walking out of some building with a vase.

MOOS: Both composers have released CDs.

(on camera): You can't imagine a song like this ever kind of being played on the radio and becoming like a hit song.

KLINE: Why not?

MOOS (voice-over): Rummy No. 1 on the hit parade?

RUMSFELD: There are things we do not know we don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't know.

MOOS: And if you want to know what Secretary Rumsfeld thinks...

RUMSFELD: Are you talking about that silly compact disc that some opera singer sings my press conferences? That is more than what? Now, if that doesn't tell you something about the state of the world...

MOOS: The next thing you know that'll be on a CD.

RUMSFELD: The world thinks all these things happen. They never happen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They never happened, never happened.

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: And that's all the time that we have at 6:00.

Coming up next on "CAPITAL GANG," questioning John Kerry's military service with Bush's campaign manager, Ken Melon. At 8:00 Eastern, "CNN PRESENTS", examines some of the world's most influential people. And at 9:00, broadcasting legend Dick Clark joins Larry King. At 10:00 p.m. Eastern, when it comes to love, is what's inside truly more important than what's on the outside? An exclusive dating club is causing all kinds of controversy. We're going to talk to the founder.

But right now, Mark Shields is with us to tell us what the gang has. Hi, Mark.

MARK SHIELDS, "CAPITAL GANG": Hi, Carol.

Carol, Bush-Cheney campaign manager, Ken Melon, does join the gang to debate Bob Woodward's account of going to war and to debate John Kerry's military record. We'll also get Henry Kissinger's view on the current crisis in Iraq. All that and much more right here next on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 24, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN SATURDAY is ahead, but first I've got these headlines.
Three boats exploded in the Iraq port city of Basra. We now know that Americans were killed in this attack. We don't know if it specifically was a suicide attack or an accident. The U.S. Navy did confirm to us moments ago that two American sailors were killed after they boarded one of the suspicious vessels. At least four other Americans are injured. We are hoping to learn more details in this hour from the Navy, so stay right there.

In the meantime in Washington, there's extra tight security this weekend. Protesters are taking to the streets as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank hold their annual meeting. Demonstrators are calling for more effective global reform in fighting poverty and AIDS.

Also in Washington, a different kind of protest. Pro-life and pro-choice demonstrators are outside the Vatican's embassy. It follows yesterday's statement by a Catholic cardinal who said Catholic politicians who support legal abortion should not be given communion.

I'm Carol Linn and welcome to CNN SATURDAY. Coming up, the photograph seen across America and the debate it ignited. Tami Salicio took the picture and one of her closest friends got that infamous picture published. We will talk with her about the fallout and threats because of that photo. And the question whether Americans should see the flag-draped caskets.

But right now, up first this hour on an especially bloody day in Iraq. A somber reminder that the Afghan war is not over. Tributes today for Pat Tillman, the former NFL star, killed in Afghanistan. Pat Tillman walked away from a multimillion dollar football contract to join the Army. He was killed in an ambush in east Afghanistan Thursday. Today, the 2004 National Football League draft began with a moment of silence for all the courageous men and women deployed around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please join me in a moment of silence in memory of all those men and women, all those heroes, who have given their lives for all of us. Thank you.

CROWD: USA! USA! USA! USA! (END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Pat Tillman's home state is mourning the 27-year-old who left the grid iron to fight the war on terror. CNN's Miguel Marquez is in Tempe, Arizona, right now.

Miguel, there must be some mixed feelings there knowing that Pat Tillman went because he had such a sense of patriotism for his country.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that certainly is what gives this story such an edge and you know, deepens the sorrow for so people here. And even though he wasn't from here, he's from California; they believe that he is a hometown son here. This -- we're at Sun Devil Stadium where he spent his entire career here in Arizona both as a Sun Devil with ASU and as a Cardinal. They share a stadium here. And people have been coming all day, person after person, coming up to a makeshift memorial here at the victory bell at Sun Devil Stadium, dropping off flags, flowers, candles, saying a little prayer for Tillman and his family. This is a guy whose memory and name will be etched into Arizona and national history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Went on the move, intercepted by Pat Tillman.

MARQUEZ, (voice-over): Before the fame and money of the National Football League, before 9/11, before he made the decision to join the war on terror, along with his brother Kevin who played minor league baseball, a picture of Pat Tillman from scrawny freshman to senior star.

RICH WERNER, ASSOCIATE HEAD STRENGTH COACH: He was small. He was undersized, underweight.

MARQUEZ: Rich Werner worked on building Tillman's weight for four years at Arizona State University. In his final year as a Sun Devil, Tillman was named defensive player of the year.

WERNER: Pat is the type of guy that did he could do make up for his physical abilities, you know, with his heart and superior condition, the guy was in unbelievable shape.

MARQUEZ: What was it like going up against this guy in practice?

RICKY BOYER, FMR. ASU WIDE RECEIVER: Hell on two feet.

MARQUEZ: Ricky Boyer was a Sun Devil wide receiver. And in practice, every time first string went up against first string, Ricky Boyer went up against Pat Tillman.

BOYER: Pat was fast. He was strong, especially for his size. And like I said, he was scrappy and he would never quit on any play.

MARQUEZ: For the man who's would never quit, the ultimate sign of sports respect. His Sun Devil number 42 will be retired at end of the season. Conner Banks, the 21-year-old defensive end says he wanted to wear the number because he followed Pat Tillman's career since high school.

CONNER BANKS, DEFENSIVE END, SUN DEVILS: It's a great honor to be able to wear number 42 for the last time. And I feel just so much pride.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: So his Arizona ASU number, number 42, will be retired. His Cardinal number will also be retired, which is number 40. And when the Cardinals play in their own stadium in 2006, the area around it will be renamed for Pat Tillman, the Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza. And the good stories about him, not about his death certainly, but about his life continue on and on -- Carol.

LIN: All right, thank you very much. Miguel Marquez reporting live from Tempe.

Well, we've spent so much time talking about the war in Iraq. There is another war obviously going on, the war on terror in Afghanistan. And we thought it'd be interesting to take a look at the latest facts there. For example, there are still 15,000 American troops in Afghanistan. Most of the troops are helping train the Afghan army and some are hunting Taliban remnants and other threats. Eighty Americans have died in Afghanistan so far. Our Nic Robertson explores the reaction to the death of an American football player.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pat Tillman, time winding down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The move intercepted by Pat Tillman. Tillman went...

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Patrick Tillman, football star, turned Army Ranger hero, remembered at U.S bases in the country where he was killed.

SPEC. ROSALYN RIOS, U.S. ARMY: It was just shocking because he is an American hero, as we all are because we are all, you know, here.

ROBERTSON: His Ranger unit, seen here, during a recent mission, was according to the Army on a joint patrol with Afghan forces, close to the border with Pakistan when they were attacked just as the sun was setting.

LT. COL. MATTHEW BEEVERS, COALITION SPOKESMAN: The enemy size unknown at this time, still kind of working through some of the details on that. That said, again, they were ambushed. They dismounted. They moved towards the ambush. The fire fight ensued and that's when Specialist Tillman was killed.

ROBERTSON: A few other details of the incident released at a coalition briefing except that Tillman's two injured colleagues now reported stable. Along the Border Mountains, near the latest ambush, troops report attacks on the coalition and its Afghan allies have increased.

Two weeks ago, parachute infantry troops were ambushed in the same area. The attackers, not for the first time according to the troops, pulling back beyond the coalition reach to sanctuary inside Pakistan. Hope here, Tillman's killing not in vain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, it brings light to the -- you know hopefully to all Americans that see and hear about it that, yes, there are still people over here. There are still Americans military and civilians as well that are here still fighting, you know, for the cause.

ROBERTSON (on camera): In death, Patrick Tillman reaffirmed what he achieved in life, a respect for his sense of honor, duty and patriotism, but perhaps more importantly for the soldiers here, he has cast the spotlight back on a forgotten corner of the war on terrorism.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right. We, in fact, right now do have more information on this breaking news story out of Basra in Iraq. The U.S. Navy have confirmed that two Americans were killed when they went to go and investigate a suspicious boat docked at a major oil terminal in the Persian Gulf at Basra. Four other Americans were wounded.

Right now, on the telephone with me is the deputy public affairs officer for the 5th Fleet, which covers the Persian Gulf. Her name is Lieutenant Colonel Lisa Brackenbury.

Lieutenant colonel, can you hear me?

LT. CMDR. LISA BRACKENBURY: Yes, I can, and thank you for the promotion. I'm actually a lieutenant commander in the Navy.

LIN: All right, Lieutenant Commander, thank you very much for joining us. Do you know yet whether this was an act of terrorism or was it an accident?

BRACKENBURY: No, I don't think I could confirm that at this time.

LIN: Tell me what happened.

BRACKENBURY: Well, we have a boarding team was on its way to go board an unidentified DOWL that was approaching the core (UNINTELLIGIBLE) oil terminal in the northern Arabian Gulf. And as they approached the DOWL, they were in a small boat. The DOWL exploded and it slipped over the boat that they were in and they -- it threw them all in the water. It killed two U.S. Navy sailors and wounded four. The total number of people in the boarding team was seven.

LIN: What -- and after that -- actually, after that explosion, there were two subsequent explosions on two other boats? BRACKBURY: Yes.

LIN: Does this sound like to you that this was indeed suspicious and likely an act of terror? Does it look like an accident to you?

BRACKENBURY: One could reach that conclusion. However, we don't have any, you know, proof of that yet.

LIN: What made the boat suspicious to this team?

BRACKENBURY: Again, don't have a lot of details on that right now. We're obviously looking into it. And hopefully, we'll be able to find out more later.

LIN: Can you tell me what the normal procedure would be in a situation like this? What was the likely scenario? Who called them? How were they dispatched? What were they told about the assignment?

BRACKENBURY: All we know right now is the -- there was a coalition -- there are a variety of coalition vessels in the area. One of them -- crew members from one of the vessels observed this DOWL. And they saw it going towards the terminal and so they launched a boarding team to intercept.

LIN: All right. Intercept what sort of weaponry were they armed with?

BRACKENBURY: Right, to board the DOWL, which is basically a small fishing boat. I don't have details on that right now, either.

LIN: All right. Last question, Lieutenant. Did it look like it was heading for the oil terminal or did it look like it was heading for the crew itself?

BRACKENBURY: They just told us that the DOWL was approaching the oil terminal.

LIN: OK. All right. Thank you very much.

BRACKENBURY: Sure.

LIN: Lieutenant Colonel Lisa Brackenbury with the 5th Fleet out of Bahrain.

Let's go to our Baghdad bureau chief, Jane Araff who's reporting to us now from Baghdad.

Jane, what have you learned so far about what happened out there?

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: It was a day punctuated by violence. North of Baghdad, in Taji, about 12 miles, 20 kilometers north at a 1st Cavalry Division U.S. Army base, rockets slammed into the base just before dawn. Five U.S. soldiers were killed and six wounded, three of them critically in the attack, according to officials. They say attack helicopters destroyed a truck that launched the rockets, but it's not clear whether they got the people who launched them as well.

And here in Baghdad, on what should have been a placid morning, in a market place in the Shia neighborhood of Sadr City, a mortar attack killed between six and 12 people, according to officials and wounded up to 38, some of them children. The mortar attack was near a U.S. Army base, but it's not clear what that target was.

And in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, another explosion there, this one a homemade bomb outside the base. Two Iraqi policemen and two civilians killed, more than a dozen wounded. No U.S. casualties in that one.

And Fallujah, west of Baghdad, a flashpoint of violence there. The U.S. warning that time is running out. Military spokesman, General Mark Kimmitt said that parties to the cease-fire had not lived up to their end of the agreement.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: We also are looking at bringing out of Fallujah those that are trying to hijack that sovereignty for Fallujah: the foreign fighters, the former Saddam Fedayeen, the Mahabharat, who don't want to see Iraqi control in that city. But we will continue to talk. We will continue to try to settle this peacefully, but our patience is not limitless. And our patience is not eternal. Should there not be a good faith effort demonstrated by the belligerence inside of Fallujah, the coalition is prepared to act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARRAF: Fallujah threatens to be not just a flash point for violence, but according to mosque, Amans and people in the streets, something that could ignite uprisings across the country if Marines make good their threat to take that entire city. They say that cease-fire is shaky because insurgents keep firing at them. And the U.S. military spokesman says that attacks these days are ranging at up to 42 a day against U.S. and Iraqi targets. Incredibly, that's lower than it was a few weeks ago. He says it's too soon to tell whether that trend will continue.

Jane Araff, CNN, reporting from Baghdad.

LIN: All right. Jane did a pretty good job there of summing up how violent not only this day was, but just the recent past weeks. But the U.S. led coalition seems determined not let the relentless violence prevent a power transfer giving Iraq limited control on June 30th. Here is CNN's White House correspondent Dana Bash.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the U.S. military works to control the situation in Fallujah, U.S. and U.N. officials are finalizing details on plans to hand over governing power in little more than two months.

DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: We continue to consult widely with Iraqis on the shape of the interim government.

BASH: The U.S. is relying on U.N. Lakdar Brahimi to crack the temporary Iraqi government until elections are held, they hope in January 2005. U.S. officials say Brahimi's interim government plan now consists of a prime minister aided by a council of ministers and a president and two vice presidents aided by an advisory body.

The caretaker government will not have the power to pass new laws, officials say, because that will be saved for democratically- elected leaders. The coalition-appointed Iraqi governing council will be dissolved June 30. Brahimi says they have had difficulty gaining legitimacy among the people and many will not be asked back.

All opinion polls and a lot are taken in Iraq say that people want something different, Brahimi said in an interview with ABC News. "The fear is that, you know, as somebody put it, perhaps too unkindly, they will clone themselves and why you to want to have that?" One high profile governing council member, sources say, is most likely to be part of an interim government; one Bush officials relied heavily on the past, Ahmed Chalabi. His pre-war predictions about weapons of mass destruction and promises the U.S. would be greeted as liberators have not panned out. Several senior U.S. officials say a slew of what they consider inflammatory statements since have left Chalabi out of favor.

Even with the respected U.N. diplomat leading the way, U.S. officials concede convincing Iraqis to support an unelected interim government, one without authority over someone some 135,000 coalition troops in Iraq will be a challenge. But they say consider the alternative.

MARC GROSSMAN, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE: This is the way out of this corner that we're currently in and that corner we're currently in is called it's all the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And a senior U.S. official says plans are in the works for a PR campaign to try to sell Iraqis on a temporary government and urge patience until national elections can be held. As Lakdar Brahimi put it, the biggest enemy now is misunderstanding.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much. Dana Bash live at the White House.

Well, a different kind of military story coming up. Donald Rumsfeld is inspiring a few songwriters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unknown unknowns.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right. It turns out the defense secretary's speeches are so quirky, they are making music. Hear what Donald Rumsfeld has to say about a new CD. Plus, the anatomy of a fire fight. How do U.S. troops survive when the bullets are flying for hours on end? And later, they're photos that sparked a major controversy. Hear from the woman who's behind the published flag-draped coffin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Well, it's been another violent week for American troops fighting insurgents in Fallujah where a shaky cease-fire and fierce fighting continue. A television news crew was witness to one of those battles in Fallujah. Here is CNN's Michael Shoulder.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL SHOULDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When dawn broke in the Sunni Muslim city of Fallujah, the men of the 1st Marine Division were fighting for their lives again. On the roof of their compound, as other Marines fanned out through the neighborhoods, these Marines try to locate where the insurgents are firing from. One commander identifies a target.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That black window on the end.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice!

SHOULDER: From the alleys below, word that some Marines have been separated from their platoon and are fighting to reconnect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, Segment 2 has four guys separated from the main body and they're cut off by fire.

SHOULDER: The Arabic blasting over the last speakers is an American recording demanding the insurgents lay down their weapons. The recording is ignored.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lower.

SHOULDER: The Marines move out into the unprotected maze of streets below. This is urban warfare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go. Go.

SHOULDER: Move too slow, they could be sitting ducks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep moving.

SHOULDER: Move too fast, this could run into a trap.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Slow it down. Slow it down. Spread it out.

SHOULDER: The Marines say their 1st Division has lost at least 44 men this month alone and that today three of their men were wounded and nine insurgents killed. By 10:30 in the morning in Fallujah, four hours after the Marines first came under attack, the shooting stopped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're the last team to go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are we going to hold right here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, sir.

SHOULDER: A morning of urban warfare in a city the Americans and insurgents see as key to the future of Iraq.

Michael Shoulder, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Here to explain the key tactics behind fire fights like the one we just saw is Retired U.S. Army Colonel Patrick Lang, who served in Vietnam, was a senior military officer in North Yemen and Saudi Arabia and head of Mid East intelligence at the Department of Defense.

Thank you very much for being with us today, Colonel.

RET. COL. PATRICK LANG, U.S. ARMY: My pleasure.

LIN: Give me a quick definition of a fire fight. How is a fire fight different than just battle?

LANG: Well, a fire fight, gun battle, you can call it whatever you like. What you have in a situation like the one you just saw is that in any sort of engagement like that of infantry, you have one group of people who will do some shooting to try to pin the enemy down, keep his head down and keep him from shooting at your other people while another group of your friendlies maneuver around the ground toward the enemy until they get close enough to assault them. Sometimes you have to do this two or three times in alternating steps with one group supporting the other. And when you have bigger unit engagements, sometimes you'll have artillery fire from a distance to provide the fire and you can move all your infantry at once.

LIN: All right. Let's...

LANG: It's a standard thing.

LIN: Everything is better with pictures. Let me roll some videotape and take a look at this and tell me what specifically is going on here. This is a scene out of the fighting, a fire fight in Fallujah from this past Wednesday.

LANG: Yes, what you see there is, as I said, you divide your unit up. And this is a squad that's been divided in half of about 10 or 11 men. You put five or six of them on shoot at the enemy to keep their heads down so that the rest of your fellows can go out on the street and move around toward them without being shot at by the enemy. In order to keep the enemy from shooting at you, you have to put fire on him and the more fire you can put on him, the better off you are and less likely you are to take casualties.

LIN: Colonel, it looks like one of the soldiers was wounded with a bloody shoulder and he's still up there.

LANG: Yes, in this case, just looking at that film, I would say that he got nicked in the arm a bit because -- it probably isn't too bad because there isn't a great deal of blood and if you're hit severely in the arm, he would be sitting on the floor there looking for somebody to do something about it.

LIN: These troops have endured these kinds of fire fights day in and day out for days on end in the Sunni Triangle. What sort of -- what sort of endurance does that take and how much of it is physical and how much of it is mental?

LANG: Actually, it is mostly mental, really. All the business they do in the Marine Corps boot camp, as we have all seen in movies, and some people have experienced it, in fact, is designed to condition you to the idea that this kind of experience is what you do in life. That's your job.

LIN: This kind of experience of being shot at?

LANG: Well, that's your job. You're a soldier. That's what soldiers are for. And these fellows are accustomed to that by now and they depend on their comrades. They have a lot of pride in their unit. And they can put up with this for a great deal longer than you might think possible.

LIN: All right, but what are the risks? As a commanding officer, what you to have to watch out for with your men on the line?

LANG: Well, you don't want to lose any of them. And in order to do that, you have to do your job as best you possibly can, get them all the fire support you can, make sure they're well supplied, set a good example yourself, obviously, show them that you're sharing the risk, that they're enduring with them, and then just hope for the best because you can't, in every case, ensure that somebody's not going to get hurt because people do.

LIN: All right. Colonel Lang, we had some breaking news today, a boat explosion, three boat explosions actually. Two American sailors and four others, well, two American sailors killed and four others wounded. What do you make of what happened today? What do you think happened?

LANG: Well, the attack north of Baghdad on the 1st Cavalry Division compound, I think, is a -- not a routine attack by fire by the insurgents trying to keep our people pinned down in their compounds.

LIN: But it's a new strategy, isn't it? I mean are they loading? Do you think this was an act of terrorism where the insurgents loaded a boat with explosives with the intent on killing American sailors? LANG: Now, that's different. We haven't seen that in Iraq so far. But it seems the insurgents are following a strategy of trying to impede the reconstruction of the country. And what better thing to do from their point-of-view than to attack the oil terminal down there in order to raise the insurance rates on tankers and make crews of tankers unwilling to work down there and that kind of thing. It fits in the kind of pattern of their evolving war against the reconstruction and against roads and lines of communication, and transportation, in the country.

LIN: Why haven't...

LANG: It actually fits into that.

LIN: Why haven't we seen this before? Why haven't we seen this before then in the last...

LANG: Well, I think the insurgency is developing. It has been developing from an initial start in which there were small groups of people attacking more or less simultaneously along roads, against convoys and things like that. And now, you have larger and larger engagements and the thing that's going on in Fallujah, I think, in which the insurgents are having a good time playing at negotiating with the Marines is encouraging these people around the country to keep ratcheting up the level of resistance, at bigger and bigger kinds of operations. So I don't think it's surprising that it's developing that way.

LIN: All right, developing indeed. We may see it again. Thank you very much, Colonel Patrick Lang.

LANG: Sure.

LIN: Support from a friend may have cost one woman her job and sparked a sea of controversy. Still to come, I'm going to be talking to the lady who submitted these photos to "The Seattle Times."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Much more ahead, but first let's look at the hour's top stories.

Five U.S. troops are dead and another six wounded after a rocket attack today on their base north of Baghdad.

Also, boat attacks off the southern coast of Iraq killed two U.S. Navy sailors. It happened when three boats exploded shortly before a coalition team was about to board one of the suspicious vessels. Four other U.S. sailors were wounded in that attack.

Track star, Marion Jones seen here with ex-husband C.J. Hunter, denies knowledge of a check from her bank account reportedly written to the owner of a California lab. The lab is at the center of an illegal steroid investigation. "The New York Times" reports people familiar with the check say it was signed by Hunter before the 2000 Olympics. Testing showed Hunter had high levels of illegal steroids in his system.

The San Diego Chargers chose Eli Manning to kick off today's NFL draft. The 23-year-old former University of Mississippi quarterback had vowed to sit out a season rather than play for the Chargers. But the situation was quickly resolved when the Chargers traded him to the New York Giants.

Activists on both sides of the abortion issue protested outside the Vatican's embassy in Washington today. The protest followed Friday's statement by a Catholic cardinal who said Catholic politicians who support legal abortion should not be given communion. More protests are on the way.

A major women's rights rally is scheduled to be held tomorrow in Washington.

Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry is also embroiled in the abortion rights debate. Many think a cardinal statement this week saying that Catholic politicians who support abortion should be denied communion was directed at him. Here is our Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Washington, John Kerry, the Catholic, touts his support of abortion rights.

JOHN KERRY, DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going to have a change of leadership in this country to protect the right of choice.

WALLACE: While at the Vatican, a top cardinal speaks out. When Cardinal Francis Arinze was asked if a Catholic politician who supports abortion rights should be denied communion, he told reporters -- quote -- "the person is not fit. If he shouldn't receive it, then it shouldn't be given." But when pressed about Kerry, the cardinal would only say "the Catholic Church exists in the United States. There are bishops there. Let them interpret it."

The cardinal appeared to be expressing his own views as there is no official Vatican policy on the issue. Two weeks ago, Senator Kerry defended his beliefs.

KERRY: And I fully intend to continue to practice my religion as separately from what I do with respect to my public life.

WALLACE: Days later, Kerry received communion during Easter mass, angering some American Catholics who believe he should pay a price for his views on abortion rights. The issue now in the hands of a task force of bishops headed by Cardinal McCarrick, the archbishop of Washington, D.C., who Kerry asked to meet with last week.

Catholics opposed to abortion rights say the Vatican cardinal's comments should encourage American bishops to sanction the senator while abortion right supporters in the church accuse Catholic bishops in the Vatican of playing politics.

FRANCES KISSLING, PRESIDENT, CATHOLICS FOR A FREE CHOICE: They just don't know what to do about the fact that a visible Catholic presidential nominee doesn't agree with them on the abortion issue.

WALLACE (on camera): The debate will continue among Catholics who make up about one-quarter of the U.S. population. As for the bishops, though, they aren't expected to make any decisions until after the presidential election.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: There's a new CD out. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: ...so eager to get the story before, in fact, the story is there, that the world is constantly being fed things that haven't happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right, we're going to explain all this because still to come, Donald Rumsfeld's briefings inspire songs. But will they make the top 40?

And it's a new effort to help you love you for who you really are. Coming up next, Oprah Winfrey looking beyond the mirror.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: We got some news across America right now. I'm going to take you to Nisswa, Minnesota. Funeral services were held today for slain college student Dru Sjodin. After a five-month search, her body was found last weekend. Volunteers who had searched for her, joined friends and family in paying their respects.

In Toledo, Ohio, a Roman Catholic priest has been charged in the 1980 stabbing death of a nun. Police say Reverend Gerald Robinson had always been a suspect, but it wasn't until the case was reopened five months ago that they were able to gather enough evidence to charge him.

In central Illinois, an explosion last night at a plastics plant killed four works and injured eight others. Evacuated residents who live near the plant were allowed to return home today. The cause of the explosion is under investigation.

All right, Oprah Winfrey is known all over the world for inspiring and motivating. Well, she's holding events to build self- esteem and body acceptance. As our Denise Belgrave reports, Winfrey's message is simple: no matter what your size, celebrate it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DENISE BELGRAVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a day for beauty, looking beautiful and feeling beautiful.

OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: Hello!

BELGRAVE: Oprah Winfrey's tour called "Hi, Gorgeous," wants women to look beyond the mirror.

WINFREY: We are the gender that allows ourselves to be picked apart.

BELGRAVE: In an age where many women believe beauty comes from a knife or from a syringe, Oprah's message seems to swim against the tide. But it is a message her fans, like mother-to-be Tyan Williamson are listening to.

TYAN WILLIAMSON, OPRAH FAN: Even me and my face right now, being pregnant, it's hard to feel gorgeous and it's hard to accept the changes that our bodies go through as we get older and even younger women.

BELGRAVE: In Atlanta's Piedmont Park, there were health specialists, beauty consultants and wellness experts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This will give you a little something to work with.

BELGRAVE: There was also a contest. Readers of "O Magazine wrote in to nominate an inspirational woman. Corporate manager, Heather Kamaka, was one of 12 women selected as role models from across the country. Bill, her college sweetheart and now her husband, wrote the winning letter.

BILL KAMAKA, NOMINATED WIFE IN CONTEST: You know when you wake up and feel like you just don't want to get out of bed sometimes. She's the kind of person that will make you say, "You know what, it's worth getting out of bed." She's awesome.

BELGRAVE: Even though her husband would disagree, this new mother doesn't always feel that way.

HEATHER KAMAKA, CONTEST WINNER: I'm just like every other woman. I'm insecure, but I try my best.

BELGRAVE (on camera): What many women see when they look in the mirror is a distorted image of themselves. What the organizers of this tour hope to achieve is that they see this, a much more realistic picture of themselves.

Denise Belgrave, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Still to come on CNN LIVE SATURDAY, photos of patriotism or captions of controversy. Up next, I'll talk to the woman who released these heart-stirring pictures to the media. And later, words from Donald Rumsfeld like you've never heard before. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Photos of flag-draped military could havens returning from Iraq are haunting, moving and against government policy. The White House says the policy protects the privacy of grieving families. Others say it's to keep the images from undermining support for the war. CNN's senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are pictures the Pentagon didn't want you to see, row on row of flag-draped coffins on their final voyage home from Iraq. The official Air Force photographs were taken for historical purposes, and released to an anti-government secrecy website, thememoryhole.org under the Freedom of Information Act. That release is now under review because it conflicts with official Pentagon policy, banning news media coverage of the return of military remains. To some, that policy seems misguided.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: The idea that this essentially snuck back into the country under the cover of night so no one can see that their casket has arrived, I just think is wrong.

MCINTYRE: Since just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War, with a few rare exceptions, the Pentagon has banned cameras at Dover Air Force Base or any place en route. Grave side coverage is permitted if the family agrees. The Pentagon insists it's not trying to cover up the war's human costs, but simply protecting the privacy of families. And it has the support of the National Military Family Association.

In a statement, the organization says, "There is no apparent consensus among families about the policy." And it believes "the current policy is sensitive to the needs of the families."

This picture published on the front page of "The Seattle Times" last Sunday showing more than 20 flag-draped coffins resulted in a contract worker losing her job. After e-mailing the picture taken earlier this month to a friend, the woman was fired along with her husband for what the contractor says was a violation of government and company regulations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Tami Salicio was the cargo worker who lost her job after sending a flag-draped coffin photo to a friend who then gave it to "The Seattle Times." That friend is Amy Katz and she joins us now from Las Vegas.

Amy, why is it that you and Tammy felt such a strong need to get this picture out? AMY KATZ, FRIEND OF PHOTOGRAPHER TAMI SILICIO: Tami felt a need to share this picture with me because she was so blown away by what she was witnessing and that she felt so much emotion that she had to share it with me, one of her best friends.

LIN: Was it your decision then to take it to the newspaper?

KATZ: Yes. And, you know, it was more a spontaneous action than even a decision. I picked up the phone. I called information. I got the photo editor of "The Seattle Times" on the phone and I said, "I have the picture that you have to see."

LIN: Do you have any regrets now? I mean Tami lost her job. Her husband has lost his job and there's been this incredible backlash from the Pentagon.

KATZ: Of course, I feel horrible for what Tami is going through. I was up most the night answering calls from her and trying to comfort her and make her feel better. But I don't regret this for one second. I would do it again a thousand times over.

LIN: You know Amy, I'm going to take off my journalistic hat just for a second to say when I saw the pictures and the news -- the audio was down, I don't know what the reporting was saying, but I saw the picture and I found it personally incredibly compelling you know. Regardless of how you may feel about the events in Iraq, I thought that the picture was incredibly -- it was compelling. It was tender. I was really struck by it. And I'm just wondering whether it was worth the backlash to you, do you think?

KATZ: You know, Tami first started writing me last summer and they were brief e-mails that would say something like, I am so sad. Today, at the airport where I worked, a body of a dead soldier came through. And the first time she wrote to me, there was only one soldier. And she wrote to me like a couple of months later and this time it was two soldiers. And a few months later, she wrote to me again and it was four.

On April 7, she wrote me an e-mail and it was one line and it said something to the extent of this time there's 22. And I opened that photo and I saw those -- the rows and rose of coffins and I just said, "Oh, my God, we are at war."

LIN: Any -- Tami had a son -- lost a son to a brain tumor. You're well aware of the government policy of not releasing these pictures because they felt it would be an intrusion on the family's grieving. Do you think that Tami would want photos of her son's remains published if that were the case, no matter how compelling or emotional or touching the picture may be? I mean do you understand what the families might be thinking or the military?

KATZ: Definitely. First of all, it wasn't a picture of their exact remains. It's a picture of their remains in a coffin covered with a flag, so I think it's important to distinguish that. Tami would want to see this. And I know because she has said so many times to me that the worst possible thing that she could imagine is being a mother who is back in the United States, who has never been in a war zone before, doesn't know what happens with the military, for them to wonder what happens to my son or daughter after they died? You know what's being done with them? Is someone treating them respectfully? And she knew how much love and respect and care the Air Force shows every single time they have a funeral. And that's what -- that was her purpose for showing this. She wanted to provide comfort to the families who wonder did my son die alone.

LIN: Any -- is Tami getting threats now that these pictures are out over the controversy?

KATZ: She feels extremely threatened. I can tell you how I feel. Somebody just showed up at my door, a man dressed in black, and he told me that he was instructed to take me somewhere and hold me there for four hours. He would not tell me -- he would not tell me who sent me -- I'm sorry, who sent him. He was with a limo service. But he said that he was instructed to take me somewhere where he wouldn't tell me where he was taking me and hold me there for four hours.

LIN: And is Tami getting the same kind of pressure?

KATZ: I -- this just happened to me on my...

LIN: I'm talking about...

KATZ: ... 15 minutes ago.

LIN: I'm also talking about Tami. Is she getting threats, too?

KATZ: Yes. She didn't describe anything like this, but she -- basically no. What she describes to me is the hundreds and hundreds of people who have been writing into "The Seattle Times," and Hal & Berry (ph) have been forwarding e-mails to us and we have been reading them. And it has wonderful support.

LIN: All right. And that is good to hear. Thank you very much, Amy. Amy Katz and we wish your friend, Tami Salicio well.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is known for his musings. Now those statements have become music. Two composers have used his words in their songs. But is the defense secretary taking offense? CNN's Jeanne Moos has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Donald Rumsfeld briefed reporters, little did he know he was writing songs.

RUMSFELD: There are known unknowns, that is to say there are things that we now know we don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know.

RUMSFELD: But there are also unknown unknowns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unknown unknowns.

MOOS: Who knew two composers, one on the West Coast, one on the East Coast, would separately put Secretary Rumsfeld's words to music.

PHIL KLINE, COMPOSER: Rumsfeld is like this singer and dancer of language. He just spins stuff. He loves it. You can tell.

MOOS: Rumsfeld's words were first collected in a book of poetry. Now poetry has become song.

RUMSFELD: Everyone is so eager to get the story before, in fact, the story is there, that the world is constantly being fed things that haven't happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The world is constantly being fed things that haven't happened.

I've become very good at keeping a straight face.

MOOS: Soprano, Eleanor Wall (ph), was asked by her composer friend, Brian Kong, to perform the Rumsfeld songs and, no, they're not fans of the defense secretary's policies.

Phil Kline even made a song out of the defense secretary's reaction to TV replays of looting in Iraq.

RUMSFELD: And it's the same picture of some person walking out of some building with a vase.

KLINE: It's the same picture of some person walking out of some building with a vase.

MOOS: Both composers have released CDs.

(on camera): You can't imagine a song like this ever kind of being played on the radio and becoming like a hit song.

KLINE: Why not?

MOOS (voice-over): Rummy No. 1 on the hit parade?

RUMSFELD: There are things we do not know we don't know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't know.

MOOS: And if you want to know what Secretary Rumsfeld thinks...

RUMSFELD: Are you talking about that silly compact disc that some opera singer sings my press conferences? That is more than what? Now, if that doesn't tell you something about the state of the world...

MOOS: The next thing you know that'll be on a CD.

RUMSFELD: The world thinks all these things happen. They never happen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They never happened, never happened.

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: And that's all the time that we have at 6:00.

Coming up next on "CAPITAL GANG," questioning John Kerry's military service with Bush's campaign manager, Ken Melon. At 8:00 Eastern, "CNN PRESENTS", examines some of the world's most influential people. And at 9:00, broadcasting legend Dick Clark joins Larry King. At 10:00 p.m. Eastern, when it comes to love, is what's inside truly more important than what's on the outside? An exclusive dating club is causing all kinds of controversy. We're going to talk to the founder.

But right now, Mark Shields is with us to tell us what the gang has. Hi, Mark.

MARK SHIELDS, "CAPITAL GANG": Hi, Carol.

Carol, Bush-Cheney campaign manager, Ken Melon, does join the gang to debate Bob Woodward's account of going to war and to debate John Kerry's military record. We'll also get Henry Kissinger's view on the current crisis in Iraq. All that and much more right here next on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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