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CNN Live Saturday

21 Year-Old Female Trainer Tries To Make Kentucky Derby History; Marines Continue Security Handover To Iraqis

Aired May 01, 2004 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN SATURDAY: It's 2 p.m. in Washington, 11 a.m. in Los Angeles, 10 p.m. in Fallujah. I'm Betty Nguyen at CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta.
Ahead this hour, "Mission Accomplished" a banner called into question. It has been a year since the president declared an end to hostilities but the violence of war continues.

Securing ties with a community torn apart by violence. We'll show you how police in Los Angeles are changing tactics when it comes to gang activity.

And it was supposed to be a lesson on safety but a school demonstration backfires, literally. We'll have those stories and more, but first, these headlines.

At least two Americans are dead in what's being called a terrorist attack on a Saudi Arabian oil field compound on the Red Sea. Officials say other Westerners were also killed. Saudi officials suspect a group linked to Al Qaeda. We'll have more at the half hour.

Another SARS case is confirmed in China at the National Center for Disease Control. That brings the number of new cases to six. Only one of those cases has proved fatal. A Beijing woman died after getting the illness from her daughter, who works for the a medical laboratory in Beijing.

Here as home, at least three people are dead in flash flooding during storms in north Texas. Officials say three toddlers are missing in the storm zone. Heavy thunderstorms blasted the region with high winds and large hailstones.

We begin with an attack on a U.S. Supreme Court justice. CNN has learned two men assaulted Justice David Souter near his home in Washington. It appears he was not injured seriously, but the case raises questions, that is. Kathleen Koch is in Washington with more on the story.

Kathleen?

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Obviously, Betty, the main question being, do Supreme Court justices need more security? This incident occurred last night as Justice Souter was jogging on Capitol Hill. Court spokeswoman Cathy Auburg (ph) says that the 64- year-old justice was assaulted by several men. He then called Supreme Court police who escorted him to Washington Hospital Center. Auburg (ph) says doctors determined that Souter sustained minor injuries, adding that he's feeling fine.

She could not characterize the nature or motivation for the attack, only that several young men were involved and that the justice was not robbed.

Souter is among the youngest of the nine justices. He's a regular jogger. He's considered a moderate liberal justice and was named to the bench back in 1990 by the first President Bush.

At this point, neither the Supreme Court nor local police will say whether or not there have been any arrests in this case. The Supreme Court also will not talk on the record about the nine justices' security arrangements.

But obviously, Betty, such an incident could prompt a renewed review of their level of protection.

NGUYEN: Definitely, Kathleen Koch in Washington. Thank you.

The incident raises concerns over the safety of the members of the nation's highest court, especially as the nation fights a war against terrorism. Mike Brooks is here with that part of the story. Thanks for joining us.

MICHAEL BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Good to be with you.

NGUYEN: Of course, without revealing too much information as to put anyone in danger, let's talk about the security plan for Supreme Court justices. What is it?

BROOKS: I can tell you, I was with the Metropolitan Police for 26 years and assigned to the FBI for the last six of those and worked very closely with the Supreme Court police. I can tell you the main responsibility for security is with the U.S. Supreme Court police. They're very well trained group. In fact, I used to train them at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

He does have a plainclothes detail. When he goes out of town, he's protected by the U.S. Marshal Service. But when in Washington he's protected by a plainclothes detail. They usually pick them up after they come to the court.

I've seen the justices driving into the court themselves. Many of them do drive themselves. And the chief justice will most of the time have a full-time detail with him. But if there's a threat against one of the justices or if the justice feels that he or she needs security, then the U.S. Supreme Court will provide a 24-hour detail on them.

But for the most part, Betty, it's up to the justice if there's not a threat against the justice, they will usually drive themselves to and from work.

NGUYEN: We're not thinking security was with Souter as he was being attacked last night. Do you think that's going to call into question about security and maybe propose some changes?

BROOKS: My sources are telling me apparently he did not have a detail with him last night. They also, law enforcement sources are telling me it appeared to be a random act, an assault down near the waterfront in Southwest Washington.

But apparently, you know, it could bring -- it could definitely bring into play a change in procedure. Whether or not they will have a 24-hour detail that remains to be seen.

NGUYEN: Any indication, I know this is early on still, but as to a motive or who are these men who supposedly attacked him?

BROOKS: He was attacked apparently by two males. They don't know a motive right now. They're looking into that. The normal investigation will be the Metropolitan Police and the FBI and Supreme Court police, because the FBI has jurisdiction for assaults on federal officers.

And he's a federal officer, but talking to one of my law enforcement sources, just a short time ago, the FBI wasn't notified when he was attacked.

NGUYEN: We learn much more about this, Mike Brooks, thank you.

BROOKS: Good to be with you, Betty.

NGUYEN: A year ago today, President Bush declared an end to major combat in Iraq. And 12 months later, the U.S.-led coalition is still suffering daily casualties and U.S. forces face continued dangers. From Baghdad, Ben Wedeman with the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Marines in Fallujah continue to hand over their positions to a new Iraqi security force, composed largely of former members of the Iraqi army of Saddam Hussein.

Now, residents of Fallujah seemed to have reacted generally favorably to the new Iraqi force which promises to restore a semblance of calm to a city that has been racked by violence for the past month. Hundreds of people have been killed. Thousands made homeless. And large parts of that city of around 300,000 have been destroyed.

What is unclear is how this new Iraqi force is going to deal with the insurgents who have controlled that city for much of April. Reports from there indicate that the arrival of the Iraqi force and the fact that the Marines chose not to enter the city and crush the insurgents is being seen as something of a victory by the insurgents over the coalition.

Regarding the uproar whipped up by the publication of those pictures of abuse or alleged abuse by U.S. soldiers of Iraqi detainees, interestingly, those pictures did not appear in Baghdad's newspapers. I spoke to one editor who told me they are simply too offensive. Which really does describe how many people found the photos that were widely broadcast on Arabic satellite news channels.

However, it is expected those pictures will appear in Baghdad's papers tomorrow. But the reaction by and large has been one of disbelief, disgust and anger. I spoke to one Iraqi human rights activist who told me that these pictures raise concerns about how other Iraqi detainees are being treated in U.S.-led prisons as well as the British prisons in the south of the country.

Now, violence continues in other parts of Iraq in the area of Mosul in the northern part of the country. One U.S. soldier was killed along with two civilian security workers. This brings the U.S. death toll in Iraq since the beginning of April to at least 140.

But to put it all in perspective, according to the Associated Press, 1,361 Iraqis were killed in the same period.

I'm Ben Wedeman, CNN, reporting from Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: "Mission Accomplished"? Many think it hardly seems so, even the Bush administration admits it regrets that banner on the "U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln" last May 1. More on the story, Suzanne Malveaux at her White House post.

Suzanne?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It's just a year ago that President Bush was aboard the "U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln". That is when he announced that major combat was over inside of Iraq and it was in front of a banner that said "Mission Accomplished." Since then, there have been more than 600 Americans who have died in Iraq. Just this past April, the bloodiest month ever, at least 136 Americans killed and there are estimates that suggest that 10 times that number of Iraqis died in that same month.

But President Bush, today, used his weekly Radio Address to make the case that despite the violence, that life is better for the Iraqi people. But Mr. Bush's critics, they say his declarations one year ago have come to symbolize the administration's failures now.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A year ago, I declared an end to major combat operations in Iraq after coalition forces conducted one of the swiftest, most successful and humane campaigns in military history.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question for President Bush, who led the planning of this war so long ago is this -- when will you take the responsibility for the decisions you made in Iraq and realize something is wrong with the way things are going? Mr. President, our mission is not accomplished.

(END AUDIO CLIP) MALVEAUX: Now, while the president in his weekly Radio Address points to the progress inside of Iraq, he talks about progress, improvements in electricity, health care and education, his critics point to Fallujah and Najaf, those insurgencies there, that threaten to destabilize Iraq's future -- Betty.

NGUYEN: OK, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, thank you.

A closed-door discussion on 9/11. President Bush and Vice President Cheney sit down with the 9/11 Commission, but what effect will it have in the war on terror?

Also, we'll go behind enemy lines as U.S. forces track Al Qaeda and Taliban forces in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need (UNINTELLIGIBLE) help. We need the eyes and ears of the community.

NGUYEN: And changing strategies when it comes to curbing gang violence in Los Angeles. The story ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: When the president and vice president met members of the September 11 Commission Thursday, many considered it an historic occasion. But just how much did we learn from that closed-door session at the White House?

To talk about that, Democratic strategist Doug Schoen in New York and from Miami, Republican strategist Tara Setmayer.

Good afternoon to you both.

TARA SETMAYER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good afternoon.

DOUG SCHOEN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Doug, let's start with you. The meeting was not recorded and neither were under oath. What did we learn from that meeting?

SCHOEN: Well, we don't really know what we learned. We don't have answers about the August 6 memo that said Al Qaeda was a threat. The Commission members did say the president answered all questions fully, but I think there's still a lot of unanswered questions about what we did, how prepared we were, for 9/11, and why our intelligence forces were not able to do a better job.

NGUYEN: Tara, what do you think we've learned from that?

SETMAYER: I think I agree with Doug that we didn't really learn any new information, but what is important to point out is that President Bush did answer 90 percent of the questions.

There were -- there was criticism that about Bush and Cheney testifying together, that Bush is somehow a puppet of Cheney, which is absolutely not true. And I think that some of the Commission members even reflected how candid Bush was, how forthcoming he was, and that he answered 90 percent of the questions.

But what was curious to me is why there was a questioning revolved around what Cheney and Bush did that day. How does that -- how is that pertinent to finding out what led up to the failure -- the failures that led up to 9/11? To me that politicized it slightly, but I think the president came out very positive in this issue.

NGUYEN: Doug, your thoughts?

SCHOEN: Well, I think one of the reasons we want to know about what happened on 9/11 is there was confusion about how our intelligence forces reacted to the initial news of the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, where the president was sent? Why he was sent to Nebraska? Why he didn't come back to Washington until late in the day.

I think those are legitimate questions to have answered. I don't think they're political, I think they're real questions the American people deserve to know.

SETMAYER: But the Commission wasn't set up to find out what the procedure is for the president or the vice president during a terrorist attack. The commission was set up top find out where the intelligence failures occurred that led up to attack.

But, you know, we can disagree on what the substance of the questioning was and why, but that's my purpose of bringing that up. That if we're trying -- if the purpose of the Commission is to find out where the intelligence failures occurred, then the majority of the questions should have been asked in that direction.

And, you know, again, then it should have been Jamie Gorelick as a witness as opposed to a questioner considering she played a major role in setting up the wall that allowed for a lot of these intelligence failures and the disconnect between the intelligence agencies.

NGUYEN: Let's move onto another issue, a big issue of the week, Kerry's war record. It spilled over onto the Senate floor and we want to listen to some of that sound.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D), NEW JERSEY: We know who the chicken hawks are. They talk tough on national defense, and military issues. They cast aspersions on others when it was their turn to serve, where were they? AWOL. That's where they were.

And now, the chicken hawks are cackling about Senator John Kerry. And the lead chicken hawk against Senator Kerry is vice president of the United States, Vice President Cheney.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: At least could we declare that the Vietnam War is over? And have a cease-fire? And agree that both candidates, the president of the United States and Senator Kerry, served honorably, end of story? (END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Doug, is it end of story?

SETMEYER: It should be -- oh, go ahead, Doug.

SCHOEN: If I can answer, I think the reason Senator Lautenberg reacted as he did is that Senator Kerry has been under an unprecedented level of assault as a Purple Heart, Bronze Star winner, to have his patriotism impugned over and over again by people who do not serve. I think quite legitimately raises questions about their motives and their tactics.

And I think it's fair to have raised those questions. I think Senator McCain is also undeniably right that we should move forward and raise questions about jobs and the war in Iraq and resolving it. But these attacks on Senator Kerry are vicious, they're uncalled for. And I think Senator Lautenberg was only saying they're coming from people who, for whatever reason, didn't serve themselves, raising questions about their own credibility.

SETMAYER: Well...

NGUYEN: OK, Tara, I'm going to give you the last word here.

SETMAYER: Well, this is awfully hypocritical by the Democrats considering they fired the first shot by bringing up Vietnam. It was -- as I recall, it was Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic National Committee chairman who accused the president of being a deserter and those are vicious attacks against a president who served in the National Guard.

That issue was brought up by the Kerry campaign and John Kerry himself flip-flops on whether he had medals or ribbons. And he, himself, came out against the Vietnam War and he is the one who put this issue on the table. So it's open for argument. It's open for debate.

And if you want to talk about vicious attacks, calling the president of the United States a deserter and questioning whether his dental records are accurate or not, to me seems to be an issue that is irrelevant at this point.

And we need to move on and debate the issues and Kerry needs to find another issue other than Vietnam to define himself and he's yet to do that.

NGUYEN: OK, Tara Setmayer in Miami and Doug Schoen in New York, we thank you.

SCHOEN: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Three deaths are blamed on a violent thunderstorm that spread across much of Texas and emergency crews are mounted a search for three toddlers lost in the floodwaters. To get more, we go to Meteorologist Bill Reed with the National Weather Service. So, three toddlers, we understand, are missing. What's the situation with the storms today? Have they died down or are they expecting more?

BILL REED, METEOROLOGIST, NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE (via telephone): Well, the good news is the part of the storm system that's causing the tornadoes and flooding now moving off the coast and towards southwest Louisiana.

So for the southeast Texas counties impacted earlier this morning, the worst is over. We're just getting light to moderate rain in behind that and do not expect any further severe weather in our area.

NGUYEN: We're looking at some pictures now, it appears to be some kind of a river system that possibly could have been flooding its banks. Talk to us about the damage done in these storms and I understand you may have seen a couple tornadoes as well.

REED: Right, we did have earlier this morning between the hours of about 9 and say 10:30, we had a portion of the line that was producing possible tornadoes from northern Harris County, which is north side of Houston, across Lake Houston on into Liberty County. Based on our spotter reports, we're fairly confident that two of the storms, the one near Tomball (ph) and one near Lake Houston and Crosby were, in fact, tornadoes.

We will probably go out and survey the damage either tomorrow or Monday to ascertain the strength and other aspects of the damage.

NGUYEN: And speaking of that damage, we're still looking at some of that video, as it appears people are searching. But are we seeing any damages in residential areas, any houses?

REED: I've heard of some on that. I think the -- probably up I'm not sure where the video you're talking about came from or the exact location where you say three toddlers may be missing. But the most severe flooding that we're aware of at this time is well to our north of Houston in the Livingston area, which is in Polk County, Texas, where rainfall -- radar estimates of the rainfall are six to eight inches and perhaps as high as 10 inches right over the Livingston area itself.

NGUYEN: The video that we were looking at just moments ago, maybe we can pull it back up, is from Ft. Worth. And I understand there was large hail in that area as well, so it spread all the way from the Houston area north?

REED: Right, the Ft. Worth area was pounded overnight, late afternoon yesterday and the overnight hours. So, yeah, that's what you're seeing there is the residual effects from the storms that occurred near the area. And, yes, they had a lot of hail reports up there yesterday afternoon.

And our area has been -- the Houston area -- has been primarily wind and heavy rain. NGUYEN: Bill Reed with the National Weather Service out of Houston, thank you.

Gang violence is nothing new in Los Angeles. The LAPD seems to be taking a new tack when it comes to stopping the bloodshed. But as Miguel Marquez reports, it could be a tough sell on the mean streets of the City of Angels.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): LAPD versus gangs in south Los Angeles, it is a war that seems to have no end.

JASON SCWAB, LOS ANGELES POLICE OFFICER: We received information that a shooting happened yesterday. And the suspect was a male black approximately 5'9", with two ponytails.

MARQUEZ: L.A. Citizen (ph) precinct is gangland ground zero. Police maps show a gang patchwork stretched across a violent urban battlefield.

BRIAN TUCKER, SON KILLED BY GANG MEMBERS: He was shot right in the chest. He was shot in the back. He was shot in the lower groin area. And he was shot in the shoulder.

MARQUEZ: Dead was Brian Tucker's 15-year-old son, Bailey, an aspiring athlete, a musician. His father says Bailey was never in a gang. But he became another statistics of gang violence. For those caught in the middle, the question is -- where to turn?

TUCKER: I feel like LAPD has to be more -- be more visible in the community. And talk to people and get to know people and that will bring out the trust in people.

MARQUEZ: At a barbershop in LA's Limmer Park (ph), trust in LAPD is in short supply.

DVONDRE HICKS, RESIDENT: Most of the time, when you think about cops, you kind of think about, you know, stay away from them, you know what I'm saying? The enemy, not really the friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to partner up. We need the eyes and ears of the community.

MARQUEZ: For the LAPD police chief, the only way to earn trust is to change tactics.

CHIEF WILLIAM BRATTON, LOS ANGELES POLICE: That is with my relatively small police force focus on actually the relatively small numbers of very serious offenders in those neighbors. So that every black kid dressed up in hip-hop is not immediately thought of or suspected of being a gangbanger.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON, ANALYST: And welcome to another edition of "Tuesday Live". MARQUEZ: Earl Hutchinson knows LA's black community. He says LAPD has a long way to go to earn trust and stop gang violence.

HUTCHINSON: We're talking about decades and decades of mistrust and distrust and even violence. You know, between the Los Angeles Police Department and African Americans in the City of Los Angeles.

MARQUEZ (on camera): LA's police chief says restoring that trust is a priority and offers one measurement that LAPD is earning it. In the 77th Precinct, though homicides are up slightly this year, in the previous year they declined by 50 percent.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Tracking down a terrorist in rough terrain. We'll go behind the frontlines in Pakistan and Afghanistan as U.S. troops lead the hunt for Osama bin Laden.

And militants storm a Saudi compound killing two Americans and other Westerners. Analysis of the trouble facing Westerners overseas when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: CNN LIVE SATURDAY continues but first, the latest developments. Supreme Court Justice David Souter is reportedly feeling fine after an attack. Law enforcement sources say Souter was assaulted while jogging in Washington last night. They say it appears to be a random attack by two men.

Another deadly day in Iraq. Two international security personnel were killed and five others hurt in a roadside bombing. Their vehicles were escorting Turkish fuel trucks outside of Mosul in northern Iraq. A U.S. soldier was killed in another roadside bomb attack outside the city.

President Bush says life is better for Iraqis despite serious and continuing challenges. Those words during his weekly radio address. It was one year ago today the president declared an end to major combat in Iraq. A veteran of the Iraq war delivered the Democratic radio address challenging the president's handling of the war.

You don't hear a lot about it up it's taking place in one of the remote and inaccessible stretches of the globe. But the spring offensive against Al Qaeda and Taliban holdouts is under way in the mountains along the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan. And Nic Robertson is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): U.S. troops under fire. Now increasingly common on the Afghan/Pakistan border. This ambush earlier in the month resulting in the attackers fleeing into Pakistan. CAPT. JON CHUNG, U.S. ARMY: It's difficult; it makes the fight and the challenge of defeating the enemy a little more difficult.

ROBERTSON: Insurgents hit and hide in Pakistan tactics worry commanders.

LT. COL. HARRY GLENN, U. S. ARMY: It is certainly frustrating for our soldiers. And we constantly work to defeat that. And we work hard with the Pakistanis to do that.

ROBERTSON: But that cooperation, the so-called hammer and anvil, where Pakistani troops force Al Qaeda out of hiding towards U.S. troops waiting on the border is now slipping beyond U.S. control.

LT. COL. MATTHEW BEEVERT, COALITION SPOKESMAN: They're moving along in a political process and some dialogue now. I think clearly they've left the door open there to continue operations in the south with Euro Stan (ph) agencies, so we'll wait and see how that goes and what the Pac timetable is.

ROBERTSON: In the meantime, U.S. troop strength here is at an all-time high with 13,500 American soldiers in Afghanistan.

CAPT. ANTHONY GIBBS, U. S. ARMY: Osama Bin Laden and his top dogs, I think those guys have, I think they're far enough removed from the guys who are actually down on the ground, the ground soldiers, that information is going to be hard to come by.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: U.S. sources are so short of good intelligence on Osama Bin Laden that on occasion troops are used as bait. As one officer put it to me, "we're playing our "d" game here using our poorest battlefield techniques and tactics." It seems the much vaunted spring offensive could be slipping into a protracted summer campaign.

Nic Robertson, CNN, close to the Afghan/Pakistan border.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Pakistan's amnesty deals with tribes that may be harboring Al Qaeda and Palivon fugitives will likely slow the U.S. manhunt. Tony Karon is a senior editor for Time.com. He comes to us from New York to talk about the spring offensive in the mountains. Thanks for joining us.

TONY KARON, TIME.COM: Good afternoon Betty.

NGUYEN: Well this is the eighth week of that spring offensive. What have U.S. forces accomplished so far?

KARON: Well, it's not exactly clear. And as your report noted very clearly, it's really less momentum on the Pakistani side because the idea they would be the anvil that would push the Taliban and Pakistan -- Taliban and Al Qaeda people out of hiding and onto the guns of the U.S. forces hasn't materialized and simply couldn't sustain their own offensive in the tribal areas for the simple reason that the Taliban-Al Qaeda elements are too popular there and to well rooted in the communities there.

NGUYEN: And we're learning that Pakistan has extended its dead line giving Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters an extra week to surrender. Your thoughts on that.

KARON: Well I think Pakistan is dealing with a real problem here and that when it launched that military campaign in the tribal areas, it met fierce resistance from the Wyzeri (ph) tribes, and about 80 Pakistani soldiers were killed in that first week and it became clear that it was very hard for the Pakistani military to sustain that. It was a real risk of things spinning out of control and more general civil war breaking out in the tribal areas.

And the problem here, really, is that in Pakistan, Osama Bin Laden is a lot more popular than George Bush and that's the problem they're dealing with. They're conducting this offensive at the behest of the United States, which they'd rather not be doing because it actually creates a very difficult domestic situation for them.

NGUYEN: Of course, we have obviously noted the death of Pat Tillman and just yesterday fighters threw hand grenades at a U.S. convoy injuring one soldier. Are Taliban fighters getting bolder?

KARON: Well, yes, I mean, I think the thing is that the U.S.'s disciplining offensive here, and you have to remember the Taliban had also planned a spring summer offensive in order to prevent the elections taking place that was scheduled for June this year, which have now been put back to September.

So yes they're getting bolder. They're estimated to control about one-third of Afghanistan and the countryside by night. The U.S. has 10,000 troops there but they're really deployed in this sort of hunter/killer type role. Looking for Taliban and Al Qaeda along the border, particularly Al Qaeda top dog. But the Taliban has a very strong popular base hold inside Afghanistan. That battle would obviously require a lot more troops by the U.S. who either allies, which simply aren't available right now.

NGUYEN: Let's talk about the difficulties there. Is it so difficult because you simply don't know whom you're fighting? And who you're seeing as a civilian or if it is indeed an Al Qaeda fighter?

KARON: I think the problem is that the environment for the Al Qaeda elements is still very permissive. It's very welcoming. There are probably a handful of Al Qaeda people; there are a few of the top dogs. There are a few hundred people trained by Al Qaeda, foreign fighters, like ozbeck Chechen (ph), Chinese perhaps even. That are sheltering on the Pakistani side but they are actually living in those communities and the amnesty deal with the Pakistani deal essentially allows them to stay there as long as they don't partake in attacks in Afghanistan. So really it is a situation where a lot of the local population is essentially more or less sympathetic or certainly not hostile to the Al Qaeda/Taliban element.

NGUYEN: OK, quickly if we do not find and get Osama Bin Laden or his top men, how does the U.S. define success in this?

KARON: I think the U.S. is going to stay in Afghanistan until such time as it does find Osama Bin Laden and the other top dogs. That might not happen in the next year, but chances are sooner or later, it's likely to happen if the U.S. stays there.

NGUYEN: OK, Tony Karon, senior editor for Time.com. We thank you.

Two American petro chemical workers are among the dead in a shootout in Saudi Arabia. Caroline Faraj has more by phone from Duebai in the United Arab Emirates.

CAROLINE FARAJ, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (via telephone): Well yes, Betty, we've got now confirmation as we were told by the U.S. Embassy here in Saudi Arabia that two Americans working in this location were killed and one still in a serious condition in hospital. And there was -- there's no confirmation about what exactly the situation regarding this American citizen.

We also got confirmation from the Australian Embassy that one Australian worker was killed. He's 57 years old and we also talked to the British Embassy in Riyadh. They're saying that we've got reports that two British citizens were killed but we cannot confirm yet because the ambassador as well as other diplomats is in the location. So what we've got up to now is this information.

We also heard from sources in Saudi Arabia that one Saudi citizen was also killed and the Canadian told us that two were injured. But they're working also with the Saudi authorities.

Betty.

NGUYEN: Caroline, any indication as to a motive behind the shootout?

FARAJ: Well, what the Saudis are saying that some of those four militants that were basically two of them were killed and one was injured and then arrested. They're saying that some of them are on the wanted list and as we recall, Saudi Arabia issued on the 7th of December last year a list of 26 names. They called them wanted people. And some of them they believe that they are in the very close contacts with Al Qaeda and they're working hand in hand with them. In the Arab Peninsula so they believe it is also motivated by Al Qaeda as well.

Betty.

NGUYEN: OK, Caroline Faraj in Duebai thank you.

Well getting ready for an historic run for those roses.

JOSIE BURKE, CNN CORRESDENT: I'm Josie Burke in Louisville, coming up, we'll introduce to the 21-year-old woman trying to make Kentucky derby history.

NGUYEN: And let it snow. A cold wet snap turned the Rocky Mountains into a winter wonderland for some, misery for others. This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: News across America now. In Bakersfield, California, an elementary school vice president pleads not guilty to murdering his family. Prosecutors say Vincent Brothers killed his wife, three children and mother-in-law last July.

Alabama Supreme Court rules in the case of the so-called Ten Commandments justice. The court unanimously rejected Roy Moore's appeal to be reinstated as the state's chief justice. Moore was expelled from office when he defied a federal court order to remove the Ten Commandments monument from a state building.

Los Angeles shoppers are free to go to the malls again. The city's police chief say a terror attack threat on area shopping centers is over. Tuesday's threat prompted increased patrols and security.

And it could be or could it be true? A snowstorm on the last day of April is that right? Well, folks in Denver had to clean snow from their cars. Parts of the Colorado Rockies got nearly a foot of snow.

The 130th Run for the Roses takes place less than four hours from now and it could be a messy race. Sports correspondent Josie Burke is at Churchill downs. Good afternoon, has it started raining yet?

BURKE: Well Betty, it's really interesting, when we all woke up this morning, it was raining and just looked really cloudy and ominous and we all thought that the Kentucky Derby would probably be run on an off track, but it's really nice out right now. The sun was out very briefly and we haven't had rain in a couple of hours, the last races have been run on a fast track. So it now looks like it will be 130th Run for the Roses won't have to deal with any off-track conditions and it will be run on a fast track.

To tell you a little bit about what the betters are going for over the past couple hours, a couple of names to keep in mind that people seem to like, number one, Smarty Jones, he's the thoroughbred from Philadelphia. and he doesn't have the greatest pedigree, but he's undefeated. Another name that we've been talking about a lot this week is Imperialism. Not so much because of the horse but because of the young woman trainer who is already on the fast track.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURKE, (voice over): The horse with the sunken eye and the eye- popping trainer are a perfect fit. Imperialism can't see that 21-year- old Kristen Mulhall breaks the mold when it comes to the Kentucky Derby.

KRISTEN MULHALL: I never dreamed I'd be here this quick and even all the way up until we bought this horse I never thought we'd be here but it's a great feeling.

BURKE: Being young and female makes Mulhall a pace setter on two fronts. Most successful trainers are older men. Her father was one and when Mulhall gave up riding show horses and got her trainer's license two years ago, dad wasn't thrilled with the idea.

MULHALL, KRISTEN MULHALL'S FATHER: I wasn't at all in favor of her doing it and being on the back side and everything, but she's handled herself very well and so, it's worked out well.

K. MULHALL: I'm a little hardheaded and I decided I wanted to go on my own and do it and I did it.

BURKE: Mulhall is just the 11th woman to enter a horse in Kentucky Derby history. If she wins, she'll be the first woman and the youngest trainer ever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kristen's an awesome horse trainer. The horses talk to her she listen and they respond to each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She might be 21 but she is probably 30 some years you know mentally and she's a pretty sharp kid and she's been around racing her whole life.

BURKE: Mulhall's special relationship with Imperialism grew in the barn and on the track. She's one of the rare trainers who mount her thoroughbred for workouts.

K. MULHALL: I can feel things that other people can't feel, that they can't explain to you or that you can't see with your eye. He has a huge heart, he tries, he gives you everything he has every single time and I think that's basically what you need is something that's going to try and not cheat you.

BURKE: The horse and the trainer have a lot in common.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURKE: Now, in case you're wondering just who was the youngest trainer ever to win the Kentucky Derby, it was James Row Sr. and it was 24 years old when he won back in 1881.

Betty.

NGUYEN: Jen of course Mulhall is a fan favor favorite, but you've gotten a chance to look at some of the horses, what's your pick?

BURKE: I haven't had a good feel. I like to go with some sort of gut right at the last minute. However, another horse that's getting a lot of attention is Tap It. This is a horse that's not raced much, only has four races under his belt going into this, but he did win the Wood Memorial. He has got an interesting story, because his trainer is a first-timer here at the Derby but he's been around for a while and has some unorthodox training methods including he likes to slip eggs and Guinness Stout into his horse's feed, so kind of an interesting guy, an interesting pick right there.

NGUYEN: All right, Josie the gambler, I kind of like to pick them according to their names if they're interesting or not. Doesn't really pay off, but hey it's fun.

BURKE: Name, color, things like that.

NGUYEN: OK, Josie Burke at Church Hill Downs, thank you.

Well another attack on the ice has marred the sport of hockey and we must warn you of the disturbing video images from this game. Canadian hockey player Alexander Parazogan (ph) has been suspended from the Hamilton Bulldogs. The reason a stick-swinging attack on Cleveland Barron's offensive man Garrett Stanford. It happened during a playoff game last night. And Stanford was hit in the face. Stafford was taken from the ice to a near by hospital where he was treated for a concoction and later released.

Acquitted on the most serious charges, but Jayson Williams' legal troubles may not be over yet. We'll examine the trial next in our "Legal Roundtable."

And a show-and-tell gone wrong. The story of a safety demonstration that was anything but in one Florida community.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Michael Jackson's next court date is a month away, though he is not required to attend. Jackson learned at his arraignment Friday that he faces a new count, conspiracy to abduct a child and false imprisonment. That's in addition to child molestation charges. The atmosphere in Santa Maria, California, was very different from the singer's first appearance back in January.

Jackson leads our Saturday "Legal Roundtable" with Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor in Cleveland, and in New York, criminal defense attorney Richard Herman. Welcome both of you. We appreciate you joining us.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi Betty.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi Betty, how are you? Nice to be back.

NGUYEN: Doing all right so far. Well great. Let's start with Michael Jackson. Were you surprised by this additional charge?

HERMAN: Well, the conspiracy count changes the ball field drastically. I mean there are 28 over acts. It completely undercut the defense in that case. When you have a conspiracy count certain witnesses that Jackson may have wanted to call now may be deemed un indicted or indicted co-conspirators with him. Their credibility will be at stake. It's really -- it's gone upside down for Michael Jackson.

NGUYEN; OK, now in your thoughts?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I'm not sure that's right because you've got a situation where this case still drips with reasonable doubt and I think the good news for Michael is that he's got a team that the local people understand. I think the best thing Michael could have done is to get rid of the old dream team and bring in Tom Mesereau. This is a good move and I think things are looking actually good for him.

HERMAN: Well Betty, yesterday with both sides were winners yesterday because Mesereau showed that he could control Michael Jackson, 400 people were there as opposed to 2,000. He was under control, not wearing that World War II garb. He spoke briefly, he spoke well and but the move by the prosecutor to add this conspiracy count was very clever, very tactical and it's going to benefit of the prosecution. It's a different case now.

NGUYEN: Was the atmosphere different because Mesereau is on the team or did they just simply learn from the first time?

HERMAN: Don't know but Michael will take the benefit of it.

FRIEDMAN: And I think both actually impact on Michael. Number one, I agree that the prosecution's conspiracy charges create issues. The difficulty is that, was that the existing team of Geragos and Brafman didn't seem to connect with what this community is. The great thing about what Tom Mesereau has done is he and his client is trying to connect and there are only 12 people that count here and that's the 12 people from the county.

HERMAN: Avery, Avery, and a New York Yankee jersey against a Cleveland Indian jersey that Mesereau will not be the attorney at the time this case goes to trial.

NGUYEN: OK, gentleman lets move to the Jayson...

FRIEDMAN: No way, Richard. it's never going to happen. He's sticking with this trial and he is going forward.

HERMAN: We will see.

NGUYEN: Let's move to the Jayson Williams verdict. And let's start with you, Richard. Your thoughts on that.

HERMAN: Well, this is a -- it's a tragic situation. It's very tragic. Jayson Williams, this jury showed what happens to an overzealous prosecutor who brings in witnesses who are tainted, played games with that gun, the jury was allowed to know what they did with that gun there. And they reached out and blasted them for it. He's licking his wounds right now, there's one count that he's got to decide whether or not to retry him on. And a lot of attorneys feel, well, he's going to get probation, don't worry about it; he's not going to jail. I'm not so sure about that.

FRIEDMAN: Richard, Richard, Richard, you convicted this guy. You convicted him from the beginning.

HERMAN: Well, I convicted him until we saw how overzealous and how overreaching this prosecutor was. This guy blew the case for himself. And believe me, he's licking his wounds right now, he's very embarrassed. There was no defense to the cover-up charges. Like Martha Stewart was convicted of cover-up --

NGUYEN: But gentleman lets keep in mind that he was only found guilty of the four charges involving tampering with the investigation, not guilty of manslaughter.

(CROSSTALK)

HERMAN: Well they put no defense in on those charges.

FRIEDMAN: The big one, the aggravated manslaughter charge was out, but to me, all the observers, including Richard my friend, decided this guy was going down on reckless manslaughter like playing the Kentucky Derby, when you try to guess what American juries are going to do, you're going to lose and we're going to see what happens on May 21st to see if this case is going to be retried or not.

HERMAN: Right. We had a 36...

NGUYEN: Ok, Avery that is going to be the last word. We are simply out of time, gentlemen, we appreciate it. Avery Friedman and Richard Herman, thank you both.

HERMAN: Thank you, Betty.

FRIEDMAN: Nice to see you, Betty. take care.

NGUYEN: Nice to see you too. Our Web site is your legal link to the high-profile cases making headlines, log on to CNN.com/law for the latest developments as well as legal opinions and analysis.

A safety drill backfires, literally. Straight ahead, the story of the federal agent who may be in hot water with his superiors.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Some children in a gun safety class got a shot of reality, literally. Their instructor, a federal drug agent, accidentally shot himself during the discussion. Reporter Eryka Washington with affiliate WESH has the story from Orlando, Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VIVIAN FARMER: I couldn't believe he actually shot himself.

ERYKA WASHINGTON, WESH: Vivian Farmer is still shocked to think what happened inside this classroom at the Callahan Center.

T. J. DORSEY, EVENT COORDINATOR: That probably would never happen again, but for us, it was a blessing, in a way. Somebody sitting in here got -- gained some valuable information.

WASHINGTON: A DEA agent came to talk about drugs and gun safety to a room full of kids when his gun went off.

FARMER: Some people did leave. The kids started crying.

WASHINGTON: Folks inside the classroom say the agent pulled out his weapon and released the magazine. Even asked the parents to look inside the chamber to make sure it wasn't loaded but when he released the slide, that's when it fired and shot him in the leg. FARMER: Then the smell and the look on his face because you heard it and my eyes went right to him and the look on his face let me know, I go, uh-oh, that was real.

WASHINGTON: According to the police report, the weapon fired into the top of his theft thigh, but surprisingly, people watching thought this was part of the demonstration.

DORSEY: I actually thought it was a blank. The young man really conducted himself in a very admirable way even after he had been shot. He simply said, that's it; Dr. Dorsey, and he went out of that door right there.

WASHINGTON: Now did you know he was bringing a loaded weapon into the facility?

DORSEY: No, we didn't -- we didn't have any idea what the presentation would actually entail.

FARMER: He did let the children see that anybody can make a mistake. So it's best if there's a gun, don't touch it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: That report from affiliate WESH in Florida. The agent was treated and released and he's back at work. But DEA Headquarters in Washington is investigating the incident.

Stick around for more on CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Ahead," Next @ CNN," at 4:00 Eastern, "CNN Live Saturday" in dollar signs, checking your credit report and getting errors corrected. Experts answer your calls and emails. Then "People in the News" profiling the stars of the TV show "Friends" as it concludes a 10-year run. But first, Daniel Sieberg with a preview of "NEXT@CNN."

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN ANCHOR, NEXT @ CNN: This week NEXT@CNN, looks at technologies the Pentagon is considering to give troops in Iraq more protection than Humvees can provide. Plus a radiating mosquitoes, Google mania mania is anywhere. A fowl story from Malta, the bug nebula and a sperm race. Yes, only on NEXT@CNN folks. All that and more after a check at the top stories from the CNN News Room.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 1, 2004 - 14:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN SATURDAY: It's 2 p.m. in Washington, 11 a.m. in Los Angeles, 10 p.m. in Fallujah. I'm Betty Nguyen at CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta.
Ahead this hour, "Mission Accomplished" a banner called into question. It has been a year since the president declared an end to hostilities but the violence of war continues.

Securing ties with a community torn apart by violence. We'll show you how police in Los Angeles are changing tactics when it comes to gang activity.

And it was supposed to be a lesson on safety but a school demonstration backfires, literally. We'll have those stories and more, but first, these headlines.

At least two Americans are dead in what's being called a terrorist attack on a Saudi Arabian oil field compound on the Red Sea. Officials say other Westerners were also killed. Saudi officials suspect a group linked to Al Qaeda. We'll have more at the half hour.

Another SARS case is confirmed in China at the National Center for Disease Control. That brings the number of new cases to six. Only one of those cases has proved fatal. A Beijing woman died after getting the illness from her daughter, who works for the a medical laboratory in Beijing.

Here as home, at least three people are dead in flash flooding during storms in north Texas. Officials say three toddlers are missing in the storm zone. Heavy thunderstorms blasted the region with high winds and large hailstones.

We begin with an attack on a U.S. Supreme Court justice. CNN has learned two men assaulted Justice David Souter near his home in Washington. It appears he was not injured seriously, but the case raises questions, that is. Kathleen Koch is in Washington with more on the story.

Kathleen?

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Obviously, Betty, the main question being, do Supreme Court justices need more security? This incident occurred last night as Justice Souter was jogging on Capitol Hill. Court spokeswoman Cathy Auburg (ph) says that the 64- year-old justice was assaulted by several men. He then called Supreme Court police who escorted him to Washington Hospital Center. Auburg (ph) says doctors determined that Souter sustained minor injuries, adding that he's feeling fine.

She could not characterize the nature or motivation for the attack, only that several young men were involved and that the justice was not robbed.

Souter is among the youngest of the nine justices. He's a regular jogger. He's considered a moderate liberal justice and was named to the bench back in 1990 by the first President Bush.

At this point, neither the Supreme Court nor local police will say whether or not there have been any arrests in this case. The Supreme Court also will not talk on the record about the nine justices' security arrangements.

But obviously, Betty, such an incident could prompt a renewed review of their level of protection.

NGUYEN: Definitely, Kathleen Koch in Washington. Thank you.

The incident raises concerns over the safety of the members of the nation's highest court, especially as the nation fights a war against terrorism. Mike Brooks is here with that part of the story. Thanks for joining us.

MICHAEL BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Good to be with you.

NGUYEN: Of course, without revealing too much information as to put anyone in danger, let's talk about the security plan for Supreme Court justices. What is it?

BROOKS: I can tell you, I was with the Metropolitan Police for 26 years and assigned to the FBI for the last six of those and worked very closely with the Supreme Court police. I can tell you the main responsibility for security is with the U.S. Supreme Court police. They're very well trained group. In fact, I used to train them at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center.

He does have a plainclothes detail. When he goes out of town, he's protected by the U.S. Marshal Service. But when in Washington he's protected by a plainclothes detail. They usually pick them up after they come to the court.

I've seen the justices driving into the court themselves. Many of them do drive themselves. And the chief justice will most of the time have a full-time detail with him. But if there's a threat against one of the justices or if the justice feels that he or she needs security, then the U.S. Supreme Court will provide a 24-hour detail on them.

But for the most part, Betty, it's up to the justice if there's not a threat against the justice, they will usually drive themselves to and from work.

NGUYEN: We're not thinking security was with Souter as he was being attacked last night. Do you think that's going to call into question about security and maybe propose some changes?

BROOKS: My sources are telling me apparently he did not have a detail with him last night. They also, law enforcement sources are telling me it appeared to be a random act, an assault down near the waterfront in Southwest Washington.

But apparently, you know, it could bring -- it could definitely bring into play a change in procedure. Whether or not they will have a 24-hour detail that remains to be seen.

NGUYEN: Any indication, I know this is early on still, but as to a motive or who are these men who supposedly attacked him?

BROOKS: He was attacked apparently by two males. They don't know a motive right now. They're looking into that. The normal investigation will be the Metropolitan Police and the FBI and Supreme Court police, because the FBI has jurisdiction for assaults on federal officers.

And he's a federal officer, but talking to one of my law enforcement sources, just a short time ago, the FBI wasn't notified when he was attacked.

NGUYEN: We learn much more about this, Mike Brooks, thank you.

BROOKS: Good to be with you, Betty.

NGUYEN: A year ago today, President Bush declared an end to major combat in Iraq. And 12 months later, the U.S.-led coalition is still suffering daily casualties and U.S. forces face continued dangers. From Baghdad, Ben Wedeman with the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Marines in Fallujah continue to hand over their positions to a new Iraqi security force, composed largely of former members of the Iraqi army of Saddam Hussein.

Now, residents of Fallujah seemed to have reacted generally favorably to the new Iraqi force which promises to restore a semblance of calm to a city that has been racked by violence for the past month. Hundreds of people have been killed. Thousands made homeless. And large parts of that city of around 300,000 have been destroyed.

What is unclear is how this new Iraqi force is going to deal with the insurgents who have controlled that city for much of April. Reports from there indicate that the arrival of the Iraqi force and the fact that the Marines chose not to enter the city and crush the insurgents is being seen as something of a victory by the insurgents over the coalition.

Regarding the uproar whipped up by the publication of those pictures of abuse or alleged abuse by U.S. soldiers of Iraqi detainees, interestingly, those pictures did not appear in Baghdad's newspapers. I spoke to one editor who told me they are simply too offensive. Which really does describe how many people found the photos that were widely broadcast on Arabic satellite news channels.

However, it is expected those pictures will appear in Baghdad's papers tomorrow. But the reaction by and large has been one of disbelief, disgust and anger. I spoke to one Iraqi human rights activist who told me that these pictures raise concerns about how other Iraqi detainees are being treated in U.S.-led prisons as well as the British prisons in the south of the country.

Now, violence continues in other parts of Iraq in the area of Mosul in the northern part of the country. One U.S. soldier was killed along with two civilian security workers. This brings the U.S. death toll in Iraq since the beginning of April to at least 140.

But to put it all in perspective, according to the Associated Press, 1,361 Iraqis were killed in the same period.

I'm Ben Wedeman, CNN, reporting from Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: "Mission Accomplished"? Many think it hardly seems so, even the Bush administration admits it regrets that banner on the "U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln" last May 1. More on the story, Suzanne Malveaux at her White House post.

Suzanne?

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It's just a year ago that President Bush was aboard the "U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln". That is when he announced that major combat was over inside of Iraq and it was in front of a banner that said "Mission Accomplished." Since then, there have been more than 600 Americans who have died in Iraq. Just this past April, the bloodiest month ever, at least 136 Americans killed and there are estimates that suggest that 10 times that number of Iraqis died in that same month.

But President Bush, today, used his weekly Radio Address to make the case that despite the violence, that life is better for the Iraqi people. But Mr. Bush's critics, they say his declarations one year ago have come to symbolize the administration's failures now.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A year ago, I declared an end to major combat operations in Iraq after coalition forces conducted one of the swiftest, most successful and humane campaigns in military history.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My question for President Bush, who led the planning of this war so long ago is this -- when will you take the responsibility for the decisions you made in Iraq and realize something is wrong with the way things are going? Mr. President, our mission is not accomplished.

(END AUDIO CLIP) MALVEAUX: Now, while the president in his weekly Radio Address points to the progress inside of Iraq, he talks about progress, improvements in electricity, health care and education, his critics point to Fallujah and Najaf, those insurgencies there, that threaten to destabilize Iraq's future -- Betty.

NGUYEN: OK, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, thank you.

A closed-door discussion on 9/11. President Bush and Vice President Cheney sit down with the 9/11 Commission, but what effect will it have in the war on terror?

Also, we'll go behind enemy lines as U.S. forces track Al Qaeda and Taliban forces in the mountains between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need (UNINTELLIGIBLE) help. We need the eyes and ears of the community.

NGUYEN: And changing strategies when it comes to curbing gang violence in Los Angeles. The story ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: When the president and vice president met members of the September 11 Commission Thursday, many considered it an historic occasion. But just how much did we learn from that closed-door session at the White House?

To talk about that, Democratic strategist Doug Schoen in New York and from Miami, Republican strategist Tara Setmayer.

Good afternoon to you both.

TARA SETMAYER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Good afternoon.

DOUG SCHOEN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Doug, let's start with you. The meeting was not recorded and neither were under oath. What did we learn from that meeting?

SCHOEN: Well, we don't really know what we learned. We don't have answers about the August 6 memo that said Al Qaeda was a threat. The Commission members did say the president answered all questions fully, but I think there's still a lot of unanswered questions about what we did, how prepared we were, for 9/11, and why our intelligence forces were not able to do a better job.

NGUYEN: Tara, what do you think we've learned from that?

SETMAYER: I think I agree with Doug that we didn't really learn any new information, but what is important to point out is that President Bush did answer 90 percent of the questions.

There were -- there was criticism that about Bush and Cheney testifying together, that Bush is somehow a puppet of Cheney, which is absolutely not true. And I think that some of the Commission members even reflected how candid Bush was, how forthcoming he was, and that he answered 90 percent of the questions.

But what was curious to me is why there was a questioning revolved around what Cheney and Bush did that day. How does that -- how is that pertinent to finding out what led up to the failure -- the failures that led up to 9/11? To me that politicized it slightly, but I think the president came out very positive in this issue.

NGUYEN: Doug, your thoughts?

SCHOEN: Well, I think one of the reasons we want to know about what happened on 9/11 is there was confusion about how our intelligence forces reacted to the initial news of the bombing of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, where the president was sent? Why he was sent to Nebraska? Why he didn't come back to Washington until late in the day.

I think those are legitimate questions to have answered. I don't think they're political, I think they're real questions the American people deserve to know.

SETMAYER: But the Commission wasn't set up to find out what the procedure is for the president or the vice president during a terrorist attack. The commission was set up top find out where the intelligence failures occurred that led up to attack.

But, you know, we can disagree on what the substance of the questioning was and why, but that's my purpose of bringing that up. That if we're trying -- if the purpose of the Commission is to find out where the intelligence failures occurred, then the majority of the questions should have been asked in that direction.

And, you know, again, then it should have been Jamie Gorelick as a witness as opposed to a questioner considering she played a major role in setting up the wall that allowed for a lot of these intelligence failures and the disconnect between the intelligence agencies.

NGUYEN: Let's move onto another issue, a big issue of the week, Kerry's war record. It spilled over onto the Senate floor and we want to listen to some of that sound.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D), NEW JERSEY: We know who the chicken hawks are. They talk tough on national defense, and military issues. They cast aspersions on others when it was their turn to serve, where were they? AWOL. That's where they were.

And now, the chicken hawks are cackling about Senator John Kerry. And the lead chicken hawk against Senator Kerry is vice president of the United States, Vice President Cheney.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: At least could we declare that the Vietnam War is over? And have a cease-fire? And agree that both candidates, the president of the United States and Senator Kerry, served honorably, end of story? (END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Doug, is it end of story?

SETMEYER: It should be -- oh, go ahead, Doug.

SCHOEN: If I can answer, I think the reason Senator Lautenberg reacted as he did is that Senator Kerry has been under an unprecedented level of assault as a Purple Heart, Bronze Star winner, to have his patriotism impugned over and over again by people who do not serve. I think quite legitimately raises questions about their motives and their tactics.

And I think it's fair to have raised those questions. I think Senator McCain is also undeniably right that we should move forward and raise questions about jobs and the war in Iraq and resolving it. But these attacks on Senator Kerry are vicious, they're uncalled for. And I think Senator Lautenberg was only saying they're coming from people who, for whatever reason, didn't serve themselves, raising questions about their own credibility.

SETMAYER: Well...

NGUYEN: OK, Tara, I'm going to give you the last word here.

SETMAYER: Well, this is awfully hypocritical by the Democrats considering they fired the first shot by bringing up Vietnam. It was -- as I recall, it was Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic National Committee chairman who accused the president of being a deserter and those are vicious attacks against a president who served in the National Guard.

That issue was brought up by the Kerry campaign and John Kerry himself flip-flops on whether he had medals or ribbons. And he, himself, came out against the Vietnam War and he is the one who put this issue on the table. So it's open for argument. It's open for debate.

And if you want to talk about vicious attacks, calling the president of the United States a deserter and questioning whether his dental records are accurate or not, to me seems to be an issue that is irrelevant at this point.

And we need to move on and debate the issues and Kerry needs to find another issue other than Vietnam to define himself and he's yet to do that.

NGUYEN: OK, Tara Setmayer in Miami and Doug Schoen in New York, we thank you.

SCHOEN: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Three deaths are blamed on a violent thunderstorm that spread across much of Texas and emergency crews are mounted a search for three toddlers lost in the floodwaters. To get more, we go to Meteorologist Bill Reed with the National Weather Service. So, three toddlers, we understand, are missing. What's the situation with the storms today? Have they died down or are they expecting more?

BILL REED, METEOROLOGIST, NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE (via telephone): Well, the good news is the part of the storm system that's causing the tornadoes and flooding now moving off the coast and towards southwest Louisiana.

So for the southeast Texas counties impacted earlier this morning, the worst is over. We're just getting light to moderate rain in behind that and do not expect any further severe weather in our area.

NGUYEN: We're looking at some pictures now, it appears to be some kind of a river system that possibly could have been flooding its banks. Talk to us about the damage done in these storms and I understand you may have seen a couple tornadoes as well.

REED: Right, we did have earlier this morning between the hours of about 9 and say 10:30, we had a portion of the line that was producing possible tornadoes from northern Harris County, which is north side of Houston, across Lake Houston on into Liberty County. Based on our spotter reports, we're fairly confident that two of the storms, the one near Tomball (ph) and one near Lake Houston and Crosby were, in fact, tornadoes.

We will probably go out and survey the damage either tomorrow or Monday to ascertain the strength and other aspects of the damage.

NGUYEN: And speaking of that damage, we're still looking at some of that video, as it appears people are searching. But are we seeing any damages in residential areas, any houses?

REED: I've heard of some on that. I think the -- probably up I'm not sure where the video you're talking about came from or the exact location where you say three toddlers may be missing. But the most severe flooding that we're aware of at this time is well to our north of Houston in the Livingston area, which is in Polk County, Texas, where rainfall -- radar estimates of the rainfall are six to eight inches and perhaps as high as 10 inches right over the Livingston area itself.

NGUYEN: The video that we were looking at just moments ago, maybe we can pull it back up, is from Ft. Worth. And I understand there was large hail in that area as well, so it spread all the way from the Houston area north?

REED: Right, the Ft. Worth area was pounded overnight, late afternoon yesterday and the overnight hours. So, yeah, that's what you're seeing there is the residual effects from the storms that occurred near the area. And, yes, they had a lot of hail reports up there yesterday afternoon.

And our area has been -- the Houston area -- has been primarily wind and heavy rain. NGUYEN: Bill Reed with the National Weather Service out of Houston, thank you.

Gang violence is nothing new in Los Angeles. The LAPD seems to be taking a new tack when it comes to stopping the bloodshed. But as Miguel Marquez reports, it could be a tough sell on the mean streets of the City of Angels.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): LAPD versus gangs in south Los Angeles, it is a war that seems to have no end.

JASON SCWAB, LOS ANGELES POLICE OFFICER: We received information that a shooting happened yesterday. And the suspect was a male black approximately 5'9", with two ponytails.

MARQUEZ: L.A. Citizen (ph) precinct is gangland ground zero. Police maps show a gang patchwork stretched across a violent urban battlefield.

BRIAN TUCKER, SON KILLED BY GANG MEMBERS: He was shot right in the chest. He was shot in the back. He was shot in the lower groin area. And he was shot in the shoulder.

MARQUEZ: Dead was Brian Tucker's 15-year-old son, Bailey, an aspiring athlete, a musician. His father says Bailey was never in a gang. But he became another statistics of gang violence. For those caught in the middle, the question is -- where to turn?

TUCKER: I feel like LAPD has to be more -- be more visible in the community. And talk to people and get to know people and that will bring out the trust in people.

MARQUEZ: At a barbershop in LA's Limmer Park (ph), trust in LAPD is in short supply.

DVONDRE HICKS, RESIDENT: Most of the time, when you think about cops, you kind of think about, you know, stay away from them, you know what I'm saying? The enemy, not really the friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to partner up. We need the eyes and ears of the community.

MARQUEZ: For the LAPD police chief, the only way to earn trust is to change tactics.

CHIEF WILLIAM BRATTON, LOS ANGELES POLICE: That is with my relatively small police force focus on actually the relatively small numbers of very serious offenders in those neighbors. So that every black kid dressed up in hip-hop is not immediately thought of or suspected of being a gangbanger.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON, ANALYST: And welcome to another edition of "Tuesday Live". MARQUEZ: Earl Hutchinson knows LA's black community. He says LAPD has a long way to go to earn trust and stop gang violence.

HUTCHINSON: We're talking about decades and decades of mistrust and distrust and even violence. You know, between the Los Angeles Police Department and African Americans in the City of Los Angeles.

MARQUEZ (on camera): LA's police chief says restoring that trust is a priority and offers one measurement that LAPD is earning it. In the 77th Precinct, though homicides are up slightly this year, in the previous year they declined by 50 percent.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Tracking down a terrorist in rough terrain. We'll go behind the frontlines in Pakistan and Afghanistan as U.S. troops lead the hunt for Osama bin Laden.

And militants storm a Saudi compound killing two Americans and other Westerners. Analysis of the trouble facing Westerners overseas when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: CNN LIVE SATURDAY continues but first, the latest developments. Supreme Court Justice David Souter is reportedly feeling fine after an attack. Law enforcement sources say Souter was assaulted while jogging in Washington last night. They say it appears to be a random attack by two men.

Another deadly day in Iraq. Two international security personnel were killed and five others hurt in a roadside bombing. Their vehicles were escorting Turkish fuel trucks outside of Mosul in northern Iraq. A U.S. soldier was killed in another roadside bomb attack outside the city.

President Bush says life is better for Iraqis despite serious and continuing challenges. Those words during his weekly radio address. It was one year ago today the president declared an end to major combat in Iraq. A veteran of the Iraq war delivered the Democratic radio address challenging the president's handling of the war.

You don't hear a lot about it up it's taking place in one of the remote and inaccessible stretches of the globe. But the spring offensive against Al Qaeda and Taliban holdouts is under way in the mountains along the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan. And Nic Robertson is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): U.S. troops under fire. Now increasingly common on the Afghan/Pakistan border. This ambush earlier in the month resulting in the attackers fleeing into Pakistan. CAPT. JON CHUNG, U.S. ARMY: It's difficult; it makes the fight and the challenge of defeating the enemy a little more difficult.

ROBERTSON: Insurgents hit and hide in Pakistan tactics worry commanders.

LT. COL. HARRY GLENN, U. S. ARMY: It is certainly frustrating for our soldiers. And we constantly work to defeat that. And we work hard with the Pakistanis to do that.

ROBERTSON: But that cooperation, the so-called hammer and anvil, where Pakistani troops force Al Qaeda out of hiding towards U.S. troops waiting on the border is now slipping beyond U.S. control.

LT. COL. MATTHEW BEEVERT, COALITION SPOKESMAN: They're moving along in a political process and some dialogue now. I think clearly they've left the door open there to continue operations in the south with Euro Stan (ph) agencies, so we'll wait and see how that goes and what the Pac timetable is.

ROBERTSON: In the meantime, U.S. troop strength here is at an all-time high with 13,500 American soldiers in Afghanistan.

CAPT. ANTHONY GIBBS, U. S. ARMY: Osama Bin Laden and his top dogs, I think those guys have, I think they're far enough removed from the guys who are actually down on the ground, the ground soldiers, that information is going to be hard to come by.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: U.S. sources are so short of good intelligence on Osama Bin Laden that on occasion troops are used as bait. As one officer put it to me, "we're playing our "d" game here using our poorest battlefield techniques and tactics." It seems the much vaunted spring offensive could be slipping into a protracted summer campaign.

Nic Robertson, CNN, close to the Afghan/Pakistan border.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Pakistan's amnesty deals with tribes that may be harboring Al Qaeda and Palivon fugitives will likely slow the U.S. manhunt. Tony Karon is a senior editor for Time.com. He comes to us from New York to talk about the spring offensive in the mountains. Thanks for joining us.

TONY KARON, TIME.COM: Good afternoon Betty.

NGUYEN: Well this is the eighth week of that spring offensive. What have U.S. forces accomplished so far?

KARON: Well, it's not exactly clear. And as your report noted very clearly, it's really less momentum on the Pakistani side because the idea they would be the anvil that would push the Taliban and Pakistan -- Taliban and Al Qaeda people out of hiding and onto the guns of the U.S. forces hasn't materialized and simply couldn't sustain their own offensive in the tribal areas for the simple reason that the Taliban-Al Qaeda elements are too popular there and to well rooted in the communities there.

NGUYEN: And we're learning that Pakistan has extended its dead line giving Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters an extra week to surrender. Your thoughts on that.

KARON: Well I think Pakistan is dealing with a real problem here and that when it launched that military campaign in the tribal areas, it met fierce resistance from the Wyzeri (ph) tribes, and about 80 Pakistani soldiers were killed in that first week and it became clear that it was very hard for the Pakistani military to sustain that. It was a real risk of things spinning out of control and more general civil war breaking out in the tribal areas.

And the problem here, really, is that in Pakistan, Osama Bin Laden is a lot more popular than George Bush and that's the problem they're dealing with. They're conducting this offensive at the behest of the United States, which they'd rather not be doing because it actually creates a very difficult domestic situation for them.

NGUYEN: Of course, we have obviously noted the death of Pat Tillman and just yesterday fighters threw hand grenades at a U.S. convoy injuring one soldier. Are Taliban fighters getting bolder?

KARON: Well, yes, I mean, I think the thing is that the U.S.'s disciplining offensive here, and you have to remember the Taliban had also planned a spring summer offensive in order to prevent the elections taking place that was scheduled for June this year, which have now been put back to September.

So yes they're getting bolder. They're estimated to control about one-third of Afghanistan and the countryside by night. The U.S. has 10,000 troops there but they're really deployed in this sort of hunter/killer type role. Looking for Taliban and Al Qaeda along the border, particularly Al Qaeda top dog. But the Taliban has a very strong popular base hold inside Afghanistan. That battle would obviously require a lot more troops by the U.S. who either allies, which simply aren't available right now.

NGUYEN: Let's talk about the difficulties there. Is it so difficult because you simply don't know whom you're fighting? And who you're seeing as a civilian or if it is indeed an Al Qaeda fighter?

KARON: I think the problem is that the environment for the Al Qaeda elements is still very permissive. It's very welcoming. There are probably a handful of Al Qaeda people; there are a few of the top dogs. There are a few hundred people trained by Al Qaeda, foreign fighters, like ozbeck Chechen (ph), Chinese perhaps even. That are sheltering on the Pakistani side but they are actually living in those communities and the amnesty deal with the Pakistani deal essentially allows them to stay there as long as they don't partake in attacks in Afghanistan. So really it is a situation where a lot of the local population is essentially more or less sympathetic or certainly not hostile to the Al Qaeda/Taliban element.

NGUYEN: OK, quickly if we do not find and get Osama Bin Laden or his top men, how does the U.S. define success in this?

KARON: I think the U.S. is going to stay in Afghanistan until such time as it does find Osama Bin Laden and the other top dogs. That might not happen in the next year, but chances are sooner or later, it's likely to happen if the U.S. stays there.

NGUYEN: OK, Tony Karon, senior editor for Time.com. We thank you.

Two American petro chemical workers are among the dead in a shootout in Saudi Arabia. Caroline Faraj has more by phone from Duebai in the United Arab Emirates.

CAROLINE FARAJ, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (via telephone): Well yes, Betty, we've got now confirmation as we were told by the U.S. Embassy here in Saudi Arabia that two Americans working in this location were killed and one still in a serious condition in hospital. And there was -- there's no confirmation about what exactly the situation regarding this American citizen.

We also got confirmation from the Australian Embassy that one Australian worker was killed. He's 57 years old and we also talked to the British Embassy in Riyadh. They're saying that we've got reports that two British citizens were killed but we cannot confirm yet because the ambassador as well as other diplomats is in the location. So what we've got up to now is this information.

We also heard from sources in Saudi Arabia that one Saudi citizen was also killed and the Canadian told us that two were injured. But they're working also with the Saudi authorities.

Betty.

NGUYEN: Caroline, any indication as to a motive behind the shootout?

FARAJ: Well, what the Saudis are saying that some of those four militants that were basically two of them were killed and one was injured and then arrested. They're saying that some of them are on the wanted list and as we recall, Saudi Arabia issued on the 7th of December last year a list of 26 names. They called them wanted people. And some of them they believe that they are in the very close contacts with Al Qaeda and they're working hand in hand with them. In the Arab Peninsula so they believe it is also motivated by Al Qaeda as well.

Betty.

NGUYEN: OK, Caroline Faraj in Duebai thank you.

Well getting ready for an historic run for those roses.

JOSIE BURKE, CNN CORRESDENT: I'm Josie Burke in Louisville, coming up, we'll introduce to the 21-year-old woman trying to make Kentucky derby history.

NGUYEN: And let it snow. A cold wet snap turned the Rocky Mountains into a winter wonderland for some, misery for others. This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: News across America now. In Bakersfield, California, an elementary school vice president pleads not guilty to murdering his family. Prosecutors say Vincent Brothers killed his wife, three children and mother-in-law last July.

Alabama Supreme Court rules in the case of the so-called Ten Commandments justice. The court unanimously rejected Roy Moore's appeal to be reinstated as the state's chief justice. Moore was expelled from office when he defied a federal court order to remove the Ten Commandments monument from a state building.

Los Angeles shoppers are free to go to the malls again. The city's police chief say a terror attack threat on area shopping centers is over. Tuesday's threat prompted increased patrols and security.

And it could be or could it be true? A snowstorm on the last day of April is that right? Well, folks in Denver had to clean snow from their cars. Parts of the Colorado Rockies got nearly a foot of snow.

The 130th Run for the Roses takes place less than four hours from now and it could be a messy race. Sports correspondent Josie Burke is at Churchill downs. Good afternoon, has it started raining yet?

BURKE: Well Betty, it's really interesting, when we all woke up this morning, it was raining and just looked really cloudy and ominous and we all thought that the Kentucky Derby would probably be run on an off track, but it's really nice out right now. The sun was out very briefly and we haven't had rain in a couple of hours, the last races have been run on a fast track. So it now looks like it will be 130th Run for the Roses won't have to deal with any off-track conditions and it will be run on a fast track.

To tell you a little bit about what the betters are going for over the past couple hours, a couple of names to keep in mind that people seem to like, number one, Smarty Jones, he's the thoroughbred from Philadelphia. and he doesn't have the greatest pedigree, but he's undefeated. Another name that we've been talking about a lot this week is Imperialism. Not so much because of the horse but because of the young woman trainer who is already on the fast track.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BURKE, (voice over): The horse with the sunken eye and the eye- popping trainer are a perfect fit. Imperialism can't see that 21-year- old Kristen Mulhall breaks the mold when it comes to the Kentucky Derby.

KRISTEN MULHALL: I never dreamed I'd be here this quick and even all the way up until we bought this horse I never thought we'd be here but it's a great feeling.

BURKE: Being young and female makes Mulhall a pace setter on two fronts. Most successful trainers are older men. Her father was one and when Mulhall gave up riding show horses and got her trainer's license two years ago, dad wasn't thrilled with the idea.

MULHALL, KRISTEN MULHALL'S FATHER: I wasn't at all in favor of her doing it and being on the back side and everything, but she's handled herself very well and so, it's worked out well.

K. MULHALL: I'm a little hardheaded and I decided I wanted to go on my own and do it and I did it.

BURKE: Mulhall is just the 11th woman to enter a horse in Kentucky Derby history. If she wins, she'll be the first woman and the youngest trainer ever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kristen's an awesome horse trainer. The horses talk to her she listen and they respond to each other.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She might be 21 but she is probably 30 some years you know mentally and she's a pretty sharp kid and she's been around racing her whole life.

BURKE: Mulhall's special relationship with Imperialism grew in the barn and on the track. She's one of the rare trainers who mount her thoroughbred for workouts.

K. MULHALL: I can feel things that other people can't feel, that they can't explain to you or that you can't see with your eye. He has a huge heart, he tries, he gives you everything he has every single time and I think that's basically what you need is something that's going to try and not cheat you.

BURKE: The horse and the trainer have a lot in common.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURKE: Now, in case you're wondering just who was the youngest trainer ever to win the Kentucky Derby, it was James Row Sr. and it was 24 years old when he won back in 1881.

Betty.

NGUYEN: Jen of course Mulhall is a fan favor favorite, but you've gotten a chance to look at some of the horses, what's your pick?

BURKE: I haven't had a good feel. I like to go with some sort of gut right at the last minute. However, another horse that's getting a lot of attention is Tap It. This is a horse that's not raced much, only has four races under his belt going into this, but he did win the Wood Memorial. He has got an interesting story, because his trainer is a first-timer here at the Derby but he's been around for a while and has some unorthodox training methods including he likes to slip eggs and Guinness Stout into his horse's feed, so kind of an interesting guy, an interesting pick right there.

NGUYEN: All right, Josie the gambler, I kind of like to pick them according to their names if they're interesting or not. Doesn't really pay off, but hey it's fun.

BURKE: Name, color, things like that.

NGUYEN: OK, Josie Burke at Church Hill Downs, thank you.

Well another attack on the ice has marred the sport of hockey and we must warn you of the disturbing video images from this game. Canadian hockey player Alexander Parazogan (ph) has been suspended from the Hamilton Bulldogs. The reason a stick-swinging attack on Cleveland Barron's offensive man Garrett Stanford. It happened during a playoff game last night. And Stanford was hit in the face. Stafford was taken from the ice to a near by hospital where he was treated for a concoction and later released.

Acquitted on the most serious charges, but Jayson Williams' legal troubles may not be over yet. We'll examine the trial next in our "Legal Roundtable."

And a show-and-tell gone wrong. The story of a safety demonstration that was anything but in one Florida community.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Michael Jackson's next court date is a month away, though he is not required to attend. Jackson learned at his arraignment Friday that he faces a new count, conspiracy to abduct a child and false imprisonment. That's in addition to child molestation charges. The atmosphere in Santa Maria, California, was very different from the singer's first appearance back in January.

Jackson leads our Saturday "Legal Roundtable" with Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor in Cleveland, and in New York, criminal defense attorney Richard Herman. Welcome both of you. We appreciate you joining us.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi Betty.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi Betty, how are you? Nice to be back.

NGUYEN: Doing all right so far. Well great. Let's start with Michael Jackson. Were you surprised by this additional charge?

HERMAN: Well, the conspiracy count changes the ball field drastically. I mean there are 28 over acts. It completely undercut the defense in that case. When you have a conspiracy count certain witnesses that Jackson may have wanted to call now may be deemed un indicted or indicted co-conspirators with him. Their credibility will be at stake. It's really -- it's gone upside down for Michael Jackson.

NGUYEN; OK, now in your thoughts?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I'm not sure that's right because you've got a situation where this case still drips with reasonable doubt and I think the good news for Michael is that he's got a team that the local people understand. I think the best thing Michael could have done is to get rid of the old dream team and bring in Tom Mesereau. This is a good move and I think things are looking actually good for him.

HERMAN: Well Betty, yesterday with both sides were winners yesterday because Mesereau showed that he could control Michael Jackson, 400 people were there as opposed to 2,000. He was under control, not wearing that World War II garb. He spoke briefly, he spoke well and but the move by the prosecutor to add this conspiracy count was very clever, very tactical and it's going to benefit of the prosecution. It's a different case now.

NGUYEN: Was the atmosphere different because Mesereau is on the team or did they just simply learn from the first time?

HERMAN: Don't know but Michael will take the benefit of it.

FRIEDMAN: And I think both actually impact on Michael. Number one, I agree that the prosecution's conspiracy charges create issues. The difficulty is that, was that the existing team of Geragos and Brafman didn't seem to connect with what this community is. The great thing about what Tom Mesereau has done is he and his client is trying to connect and there are only 12 people that count here and that's the 12 people from the county.

HERMAN: Avery, Avery, and a New York Yankee jersey against a Cleveland Indian jersey that Mesereau will not be the attorney at the time this case goes to trial.

NGUYEN: OK, gentleman lets move to the Jayson...

FRIEDMAN: No way, Richard. it's never going to happen. He's sticking with this trial and he is going forward.

HERMAN: We will see.

NGUYEN: Let's move to the Jayson Williams verdict. And let's start with you, Richard. Your thoughts on that.

HERMAN: Well, this is a -- it's a tragic situation. It's very tragic. Jayson Williams, this jury showed what happens to an overzealous prosecutor who brings in witnesses who are tainted, played games with that gun, the jury was allowed to know what they did with that gun there. And they reached out and blasted them for it. He's licking his wounds right now, there's one count that he's got to decide whether or not to retry him on. And a lot of attorneys feel, well, he's going to get probation, don't worry about it; he's not going to jail. I'm not so sure about that.

FRIEDMAN: Richard, Richard, Richard, you convicted this guy. You convicted him from the beginning.

HERMAN: Well, I convicted him until we saw how overzealous and how overreaching this prosecutor was. This guy blew the case for himself. And believe me, he's licking his wounds right now, he's very embarrassed. There was no defense to the cover-up charges. Like Martha Stewart was convicted of cover-up --

NGUYEN: But gentleman lets keep in mind that he was only found guilty of the four charges involving tampering with the investigation, not guilty of manslaughter.

(CROSSTALK)

HERMAN: Well they put no defense in on those charges.

FRIEDMAN: The big one, the aggravated manslaughter charge was out, but to me, all the observers, including Richard my friend, decided this guy was going down on reckless manslaughter like playing the Kentucky Derby, when you try to guess what American juries are going to do, you're going to lose and we're going to see what happens on May 21st to see if this case is going to be retried or not.

HERMAN: Right. We had a 36...

NGUYEN: Ok, Avery that is going to be the last word. We are simply out of time, gentlemen, we appreciate it. Avery Friedman and Richard Herman, thank you both.

HERMAN: Thank you, Betty.

FRIEDMAN: Nice to see you, Betty. take care.

NGUYEN: Nice to see you too. Our Web site is your legal link to the high-profile cases making headlines, log on to CNN.com/law for the latest developments as well as legal opinions and analysis.

A safety drill backfires, literally. Straight ahead, the story of the federal agent who may be in hot water with his superiors.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Some children in a gun safety class got a shot of reality, literally. Their instructor, a federal drug agent, accidentally shot himself during the discussion. Reporter Eryka Washington with affiliate WESH has the story from Orlando, Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VIVIAN FARMER: I couldn't believe he actually shot himself.

ERYKA WASHINGTON, WESH: Vivian Farmer is still shocked to think what happened inside this classroom at the Callahan Center.

T. J. DORSEY, EVENT COORDINATOR: That probably would never happen again, but for us, it was a blessing, in a way. Somebody sitting in here got -- gained some valuable information.

WASHINGTON: A DEA agent came to talk about drugs and gun safety to a room full of kids when his gun went off.

FARMER: Some people did leave. The kids started crying.

WASHINGTON: Folks inside the classroom say the agent pulled out his weapon and released the magazine. Even asked the parents to look inside the chamber to make sure it wasn't loaded but when he released the slide, that's when it fired and shot him in the leg. FARMER: Then the smell and the look on his face because you heard it and my eyes went right to him and the look on his face let me know, I go, uh-oh, that was real.

WASHINGTON: According to the police report, the weapon fired into the top of his theft thigh, but surprisingly, people watching thought this was part of the demonstration.

DORSEY: I actually thought it was a blank. The young man really conducted himself in a very admirable way even after he had been shot. He simply said, that's it; Dr. Dorsey, and he went out of that door right there.

WASHINGTON: Now did you know he was bringing a loaded weapon into the facility?

DORSEY: No, we didn't -- we didn't have any idea what the presentation would actually entail.

FARMER: He did let the children see that anybody can make a mistake. So it's best if there's a gun, don't touch it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: That report from affiliate WESH in Florida. The agent was treated and released and he's back at work. But DEA Headquarters in Washington is investigating the incident.

Stick around for more on CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Ahead," Next @ CNN," at 4:00 Eastern, "CNN Live Saturday" in dollar signs, checking your credit report and getting errors corrected. Experts answer your calls and emails. Then "People in the News" profiling the stars of the TV show "Friends" as it concludes a 10-year run. But first, Daniel Sieberg with a preview of "NEXT@CNN."

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN ANCHOR, NEXT @ CNN: This week NEXT@CNN, looks at technologies the Pentagon is considering to give troops in Iraq more protection than Humvees can provide. Plus a radiating mosquitoes, Google mania mania is anywhere. A fowl story from Malta, the bug nebula and a sperm race. Yes, only on NEXT@CNN folks. All that and more after a check at the top stories from the CNN News Room.

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