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CNN Live Saturday
"Dollar Signs": Empowering Women at Work
Aired May 08, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICK WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: DOLLAR SIGNS is straight ahead after a check of the latest developments at this hour.
We're getting more details on that explosion in the Arab section of East Jerusalem. Police and emergency service officials say at least three people were seriously injured. The blast occurred at a Palestinian grocery shop mere the Damascus Gate in the old city. The area is largely but not exclusively Palestinian. It's still not clear what caused that blast.
The new commander of detention operations in Iraq says the U.S. military will continue to operate the Abu Ghraib Prison. Major General Geoffrey Miller says a probe into the abuses is under way. He blames the abuses on a failure of the former leadership. Miller said military police under his command are getting new training and they are following the Geneva Convention.
The U.S. Army had planned to send a congressman, who is a military lawyer experienced in prisoner detention and interrogation to Baghdad in the early days of the war. Steve Buyer was supposed to oversee the military police brigade at Abu Ghraib Prison. He told CNN the plan was nixed at the last minute by the Office of the Secretary of Defense.
In Germany, police say an 18-year-old high school student is behind the computer virus that created havoc around the world this week. The Sasser worm infected hundreds of thousands of PCs, causing serious damage to European businesses and banks.
Welcome to DOLLAR $IGNS. We're focusing on working women this Mother's Day weekend. Want to earn more or get that big promotion? Our guests are here to help. Barbara Stanny is on a mission to empower women. She is the author of "Secrets of Six Figure Women." And Lois Frankel is an expert on the self-defeating things women do to sabotage their careers, she's the author of "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office."
All right, ladies, good to see you both of you and happy Mother's Day weekend. All right, Barbara, let's begin with you, you say financial success is possible in almost every field. Well, first let's try to define what financial success is.
BARBARA STANNY, AUTHOR, "SECRETS OF SIX FIGURE WOMEN": Well, my thing is not -- I mean, we can't all make six figures, but every single one of us can make more than we're making now if that's what we want, and it's much more in our control than you realize.
WHITFIELD: Lois, do you agree that, that you really are in control of your destiny financially?
LOIS FRANKEL, AUTHOR, "NICE GIRLS DON'T GET THE CORNER OFFICE": Absolutely. You have to focus on it. What you focus on is what you get.
WHITFIELD: All right, and Barbara, another lesson in your book. You're saying working hard doesn't necessarily mean working all the time. And that sort of defies kind of conventional wisdom where folks would think that in order to become successful it means you have got to work around the clock.
STANNY: Nobody works longer and harder and more hours than under-earners. What I call -- what learned from the high earners, it's not how many hours you work, it's the focus in which you work. And I think the way we women sabotage ourselves is we tend to be scattered, unfocused, and we're working way too hard but not focused enough.
WHITFIELD: And Lois, since you focus a lot on some of the things that women do wrong, would you say this is an area where a lot of weaknesses might be exhibited?
FRANKEL: Yes, I agree 100 percent with Barbara. In my book I talk about the fact that women do work really hard and it's not getting them any further. That hard work is actually only table stakes. It gets you to the table but it's not going to get you where you want to be. That there are so many other factors you have to be focusing on. And if you focus only on working hard you're going to miss what's on the periphery.
WHITFIELD: All right, and Barbara, another mantra, you say focus on fulfilling your values. That was almost a perfect segue that work can't be everything but you've really got to look at all of your values and keep them in check.
STANNY: Yes, but also in work. What I found is these women that were making a lot of money, they weren't in it to make money. They were in it -- the money was what the values represented. It was important to them, their passion, the recognition, the challenge. But at the same time, they wanted to be well-compensated because they thought they were worth it.
WHITFIELD: And Lois, don't let fear and doubt stop you. That's another rule that Barbara says you really have to adhere to. That seems like kind of one of the things on the "don't do" list that you might be able to expound on.
FRANKEL: Yes. I think that a lot of times women have voices in the back of their heads that could be from parents, could be from spouses, that say, who are you to think you can do this? And you've got to talk back to that voice, because it's an old voice that's giving you a wrong message. And too many women listen to those messages.
WHITFIELD: Think in terms of tradeoffs, not sacrifices, Barbara, what do you mean by that? STANNY: That means the women that I interviewed who had balanced lives, it's not that they were sacrificing. They really thought a lot about their life and what would be most important to them. And whatever was the most important, that's what they said yes to. And everything else they said no. It wasn't a sacrifice. It was a tradeoff. That is how you create balance and sanity in your life.
WHITFIELD: But, Lois, isn't finding balance perhaps one of the biggest challenges meeting every working woman, working at home or outside the home, trying to find the balance between your family life, your personal life and your working life, there are still a lot of women out there who say, you know what, you really can't do it all. What do you say to them?
FRANKEL: Yes, well, I agree, that finding that kind of balance is a challenge. But what you need to start doing is making conscious choices, that you can't be all things to all people or the well goes empty. And so what you need to start doing is saying yes to the things you really value, as Barbara is talking about, and no to the things that aren't going to add value to your life, either financially, emotionally, spiritually or all of those things.
WHITFIELD: In fact, Lois, something that you point out in your book, "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office," you say among the things that you really shouldn't do, and I imagine this applies both in the workplace and outside of, apologize. That women have the tendency sometimes to apologize a bit too much. Give me an example of how perhaps an apology in the workplace just really might set you back.
FRANKEL: It undermines your credibility is what it does and your professionalism. An example might be if your boss gives you an assignment with very little instructions and you go ahead and you do it the way you think is appropriate and you bring it back and the boss says, this isn't what I wanted at all. Well, the woman will tend to say, oh, I'm sorry, let me change this. Apology isn't necessary in that situation. It wasn't your fault.
WHITFIELD: But don't guys do that, too? Doesn't everyone kind of feel like they have to show some kind of deference, that instead of being combative, you want to show your boss, you know what, I'm willing to recognize a mistake was made and now let's pick up where we left off, let's move forward?
FRANKEL: I think women tend to apologize around it. Men tend to see it as a problem to be solved. So they may say something like, well, you know what, your needs weren't made clear to start with. Why don't you tell me what you need and let me go back and rework it. But they don't apologize.
WHITFIELD: Barbara, is that a common mistake that you see a lot of women making, that perhaps that they're explaining themselves all the time?
STANNY: Yes, it's a part of a bigger package of we don't value ourselves. And we tend to kind of -- we don't own our work and who we are and our power. And that thing, I'm sorry or I shouldn't do that or being deferring in any way is really self-demeaning.
WHITFIELD: I wonder if that perhaps changes when you have more women who are in managerial roles, that perhaps there won't be that kind of obsequious kind of relationship being exhibited between a woman who is trying to work her way up and her boss happens to be a man?
STANNY: I think that's what is going to get us up there, that's one of the things that's going to help us break through our own feelings in our head, is this owning our power, owning our value, not apologizing, not being obsequious, which I love that word. That's perfect. Yes, that is what is going to bring us up there.
WHITFIELD: All right, well, while we're talking about empowering women this Mother's Day weekend, it is important to note, ladies, that another trend in the workplace is as follows. More and more accomplished women are leaving their jobs to become full-time moms.
Our Louise Schiavone brings us a case in point.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, look, this is a beautiful green lollipop that mommy has.
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Meghan Broom (ph) used to direct housing and residential services at Catholic University in Washington. Her skills now are trained on her three-year-old daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you have to be real quiet like you are in church, OK?
SCHIAVONE: Broom is part of a growing trend of accomplished women leaving the workplace altogether to make sure they see their youngsters grow up. Statistics show last year roughly 57 percent of married mothers with children under age three worked, down 4 percent from 61 percent in 1997. Surveys are finding that many of these professional women want to mother and work as long as they can work fewer hours. But their demanding job requirements are an obstacle.
PAMELA STONE, SOCIOLOGIST, HUNTER COLLEGE: What I found was that women were not making choices that reflected their preferences. They were making choices that reflected the constraints, the all-or-nothing nature of the jobs that they were in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the dilemma that I found myself in. I was the director of a program. And you really couldn't have someone there part-time because they wouldn't know everything that was going on and then there would be some confusion about, okay, who is in charge.
SCHIAVONE: The women's movement swung open career doors. But this economist and mother of five says a brain drain among working women presents a new issue. SYLVIA ANN HEWLETT, ECONOMIST & AUTHOR: The second generation of challenge is how to utilize the women well over their life-span and not allow them to somehow be sidetracked or shunted off into, you know, some cul-de-sac in their 30s and not be able to come back in and -- in their maturity and contribute what they want to contribute to our economy.
SCHIAVONE: The goal is balance for parents who are prepared to take some cuts and still be able to work for both pay and love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mama loves you, doesn't she?
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: You can't buy me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't buy you.
SCHIAVONE: Louise Schiavone, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Barbara Stanny and Lois Frankel, let's talk a little bit more about that. In fact, Lois there are a lot of women who say, you know what, they are better mothers because they work away from the home.
FRANKEL: There are a lot of women who do feel that way, that having that kind of balance in their life and that kind of stimulation allows them to come back and be with their children, obviously, in a different kind of capacity. But I think in terms of the clip we just saw, it's important to remember that upper income women have this option. And I'm not saying that a lot of middle class and lower class women having the same options.
WHITFIELD: In fact, Barbara, one of the women in that piece was really kind of explaining that it is difficult to suddenly be that employee that is not working around the clock now that there are responsibilities at home and that's a difficult challenge of trying to meet that balance. You're used to doing everything and being everyone. And then you become a mother and you still want to carry on those work responsibilities. It's hard to do that and maintain that kind of momentum.
STANNY: You know all -- what my point is, I want every woman to have the choice, whether she's in the higher income or not. What I saw is so many of the women that I interviewed had the choice because they put the money aside. It's not how much money they earned. It's what they did with what they earned so that they could make choices, so they could go back, so they could get -- step out of the work force for a little while, so they could go back in. And many of them, while they were out of the work force, still did consulting for their companies. They found some way to be involved.
WHITFIELD: All right. Barbara Stanny and Lois Frankel, hold on a minute. We're going to take your calls and e-mails in a moment and have these ladies answer some of them for you. We're going to take a short break right now. And you can still send your questions, however, to dollarsigns@cnn.com or you can call us. The number is 1- 800-807-2620. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Welcome back. We're looking at ways working women can get ahead in business today. Barbara Stanny is an expert on empowering women financially, and Lois Frankel is an expert who helps us highlight the mistakes that women make in the workplace. And ladies, we've got someone on the telephone with us, Andrea out of California, who has a question about the culture of a company. Andrea?
CALLER: Yes, I was just wondering if you could both comment on how important it is for women especially to research the corporate culture of a company prior to accepting a job. The reason I say that is I have a four-year degree from University of California. I've been a medical assistant. And what I found oftentimes is obviously medicine is many times male-dominated. You work for these surgeons. And you can work harder, do extra work, take on more responsibility. And oftentimes the whole corporate culture that you haven't realized when you took on the job is you're probably never going to get much of a raise. They'll use you basically to death. They love the fact you'll work extra hours, take on more responsibility, but financially somewhere down the road you finally realize, hey, why didn't I realize this sooner? And I think especially young women need to realize the corporate culture thing is just such an important aspect of the job.
WHITFIELD: Lois, I'll let you tackle that first.
FRANKEL: Thank you. You know, Andrea, I think you're absolutely right. It's a great comment that you're making there. It's not only the culture. It's also the nature of the business that you go into because when you start talking about fields where they are primarily women, they tend to be traditionally underpaid. They tend to be traditionally people who feel as if they're being abused. So I think the culture and thinking about the kinds of career choices that are going to enable you to achieve your financial goals.
WHITFIELD: All right, and Barbara, unless you have a comment on that, I can move on to the next caller.
STANNY: Let me just say what I learned from the women I interviewed is we have to learn how to speak up. That even the women who are in the male-dominated cultures got those promotions and got those raises because they spoke up and they asked for it
WHITFIELD: All right. Kelly from Kansas is on the telephone, who has a question about women who perhaps may be the problem as their bosses. Kelly?
CALLER: Yes.
WHITFIELD: What's your question?
CALLER: You were talking earlier about apologizing too much, and when a boss gives you an assignment to do and doesn't really tell you how to do it, and you go and do it. And that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. But my boss is a woman about 10 years younger than I am, in her 50s. And she just sat me down and treated me like a two-year- old. And I did apologize, which I didn't appreciate.
FRANKEL: Yes, Kelly. I think that's what we tend to do because that's what we grow up, being taught to do that. And I think it's important that, again, when you're in those situations that you not give away your power. We give it away so easily.
WHITFIELD: And, in fact, Lois, in your book you mention another way that women give up their power is they may couch their statements as questions, kind of come across maybe not so certain of themselves when they're having dialogue with their superiors, right?
FRANKEL: That's right. You need to make sure that when you have an opinion about something, you put it in the affirmative. That your voice doesn't go up at the end, that you don't couch it in the form of a question, because you only wind up sounding unsure of yourself and then other people wind up either taking your idea and twisting it a little and then having it as their own or all kinds of things can happen.
WHITFIELD: All right. Barbara and Lois, we're going to take a short break. We'll be right back taking more of your calls and e- mails.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Welcome back to DOLLAR $IGNS. We're talking about how to empower ourselves in the business world. And Barbara Stanny and Lois Frankel are helping us with great advice on how to do that. Tameka in Massachusetts is on the telephone, ladies. And she wants to go back to school but she has got a few concerns. Tameka, what are your concerns?
CALLER: My concern is, like I said, I'm 30 years old and I went to a modeling school as a teenager. And I wanted to go back and try to go back to school. I've already went to the school, actually, day before, actually Thursday. And I've already sent the money and everything to the school. So now in the back of my mind I'm saying, why did I do that, I should never have done that. Maybe I'm too old. And I just want to know why we have those things staying in the back of your mind, why you shouldn't do this?
WHITFIELD: Barbara?
STANNY: You know, everybody -- Lois mentioned it earlier. Every single woman I interviewed, these were powerful, very sophisticated, high level women, they all had those voices. They all had those voices that you shouldn't do that. It's just fear. It's exactly what Lois said. And the thing is you say to those voices, thank you for sharing and you do what you need to do. You don't give in to that fear. Go back to school.
WHITFIELD: Lois.
FRANKEL: Yes, I would just echo exactly what Barbara said. WHITFIELD: OK. Lisa had in Chicago is on the telephone. And again, this kind of is along the lines of having a female boss. And she says perhaps there's a problem occasionally that arises when you have a female boss who happens to be envious of you. So, Lisa, what's your question?
CALLER: Yes, it's kind of on the comment that you made earlier that you should not bring up issues in the form of a question but you should be direct. The problem is, if you are direct and your boss is -- takes that as your being argumentative, and then you're reprimanded for it, how do you get around that, especially when your boss is a woman.
WHITFIELD: Lois?
FRANKEL: Yes, well, I think that you can't stop being direct with people. But you can do what I call, add a tag line. So for example, when I tell a boss like that something directly, I might invite her opinion after. I might say something like, as you can see, I feel fairly strongly about that, but I also would be curious to know what you think. And I think by including her, then she doesn't feel as if you're trying to somehow take away any of her power or authority.
WHITFIELD: And Barbara?
STANNY: I thought what she said was just very good. But, also, you have to look at your attitude and your feelings. If you are feeling dislike for her, it's going to show. It's going to come out somehow. And she may be feeling that. My suggestion is start looking for a new job.
WHITFIELD: OK. Tina in Michigan is on the telephone. She wants to get back into the work force. So Tina, what's your question?
CALLER: I've been out of work now -- well, out of the work force now for around four years and have gone on interviews and I've had managers ask me where have you been, what have you done for four years and so on. How do I answer to that?
WHITFIELD: Barbara.
STANNY: You answer with the truth. You tell them exactly what you've been doing and you tell them -- certainly you have been doing things other than raising children. For example, have you been doing any volunteer work? Have you been using your skills anywhere? And as you tell them what you've been doing, tell them what you want to do. Tell them the skills you've used before and how you can apply them because not only your skills but your enthusiasm for the job and your commitment and how you can help them make their job easier, save them money, save them time. But...
WHITFIELD: Quickly...
STANNY: Yes. WHITFIELD: OK, sorry, but quickly, Lois, I want to get you in here, too. In your book, you also mention, don't share too much personal information. So perhaps you can still offer some advice to Lisa -- or Tina on that.
FRANKEL: Yes, but you have to share enough personal information to make yourself look human. But what you have to know is that most bosses or interviewers really don't want to know the deepest, darkest secrets of your life. So I would agree exactly with what Barbara said. I would also tell the caller to remember that in an interview you're there to create, market, sell your brand. So going in there, you have to know exactly what you have to offer so that you can head that question off at the pass and let people know you're proud of what you've done for the past four years. You're not ashamed.
WHITFIELD: All right. Barbara Stanny, Lois Frankel. Barbara Stanny, your book is "Secrets of the Six Figure Women," and Lois Frankel, "Nice Girls Don't get the Corner Office." Thanks very much to both of you ladies for helping to empower us and inspire us to become empowered this Mother's Day weekend. And Happy Mother's Day to both of you.
STANNY: Thank you.
FRANKEL: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Well, that's all we have time for right now. But stay with CNN. Up next on PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," Carly Simon and Rod Stewart. Then at 6 p.m. Eastern on "CNN LIVE SATURDAY," could the prisoner abuse scandal have been avoided?
Last year the Pentagon rejected a plan to send a congressman, who is also a military lawyer, to oversee the notorious prison in Iraq. I'll speak with -- or, I won't, but Carol Lin will be speaking with Representative Steve Buyer about that decision and what he has to say about it later on today at 6:00.
Then at 7:00 Eastern, "THE CAPITAL GANG" will take on the prisoner abuse scandal. Will Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld keep his job?
I'll be back after a short break with a look at the top stories.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 8, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICK WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: DOLLAR SIGNS is straight ahead after a check of the latest developments at this hour.
We're getting more details on that explosion in the Arab section of East Jerusalem. Police and emergency service officials say at least three people were seriously injured. The blast occurred at a Palestinian grocery shop mere the Damascus Gate in the old city. The area is largely but not exclusively Palestinian. It's still not clear what caused that blast.
The new commander of detention operations in Iraq says the U.S. military will continue to operate the Abu Ghraib Prison. Major General Geoffrey Miller says a probe into the abuses is under way. He blames the abuses on a failure of the former leadership. Miller said military police under his command are getting new training and they are following the Geneva Convention.
The U.S. Army had planned to send a congressman, who is a military lawyer experienced in prisoner detention and interrogation to Baghdad in the early days of the war. Steve Buyer was supposed to oversee the military police brigade at Abu Ghraib Prison. He told CNN the plan was nixed at the last minute by the Office of the Secretary of Defense.
In Germany, police say an 18-year-old high school student is behind the computer virus that created havoc around the world this week. The Sasser worm infected hundreds of thousands of PCs, causing serious damage to European businesses and banks.
Welcome to DOLLAR $IGNS. We're focusing on working women this Mother's Day weekend. Want to earn more or get that big promotion? Our guests are here to help. Barbara Stanny is on a mission to empower women. She is the author of "Secrets of Six Figure Women." And Lois Frankel is an expert on the self-defeating things women do to sabotage their careers, she's the author of "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office."
All right, ladies, good to see you both of you and happy Mother's Day weekend. All right, Barbara, let's begin with you, you say financial success is possible in almost every field. Well, first let's try to define what financial success is.
BARBARA STANNY, AUTHOR, "SECRETS OF SIX FIGURE WOMEN": Well, my thing is not -- I mean, we can't all make six figures, but every single one of us can make more than we're making now if that's what we want, and it's much more in our control than you realize.
WHITFIELD: Lois, do you agree that, that you really are in control of your destiny financially?
LOIS FRANKEL, AUTHOR, "NICE GIRLS DON'T GET THE CORNER OFFICE": Absolutely. You have to focus on it. What you focus on is what you get.
WHITFIELD: All right, and Barbara, another lesson in your book. You're saying working hard doesn't necessarily mean working all the time. And that sort of defies kind of conventional wisdom where folks would think that in order to become successful it means you have got to work around the clock.
STANNY: Nobody works longer and harder and more hours than under-earners. What I call -- what learned from the high earners, it's not how many hours you work, it's the focus in which you work. And I think the way we women sabotage ourselves is we tend to be scattered, unfocused, and we're working way too hard but not focused enough.
WHITFIELD: And Lois, since you focus a lot on some of the things that women do wrong, would you say this is an area where a lot of weaknesses might be exhibited?
FRANKEL: Yes, I agree 100 percent with Barbara. In my book I talk about the fact that women do work really hard and it's not getting them any further. That hard work is actually only table stakes. It gets you to the table but it's not going to get you where you want to be. That there are so many other factors you have to be focusing on. And if you focus only on working hard you're going to miss what's on the periphery.
WHITFIELD: All right, and Barbara, another mantra, you say focus on fulfilling your values. That was almost a perfect segue that work can't be everything but you've really got to look at all of your values and keep them in check.
STANNY: Yes, but also in work. What I found is these women that were making a lot of money, they weren't in it to make money. They were in it -- the money was what the values represented. It was important to them, their passion, the recognition, the challenge. But at the same time, they wanted to be well-compensated because they thought they were worth it.
WHITFIELD: And Lois, don't let fear and doubt stop you. That's another rule that Barbara says you really have to adhere to. That seems like kind of one of the things on the "don't do" list that you might be able to expound on.
FRANKEL: Yes. I think that a lot of times women have voices in the back of their heads that could be from parents, could be from spouses, that say, who are you to think you can do this? And you've got to talk back to that voice, because it's an old voice that's giving you a wrong message. And too many women listen to those messages.
WHITFIELD: Think in terms of tradeoffs, not sacrifices, Barbara, what do you mean by that? STANNY: That means the women that I interviewed who had balanced lives, it's not that they were sacrificing. They really thought a lot about their life and what would be most important to them. And whatever was the most important, that's what they said yes to. And everything else they said no. It wasn't a sacrifice. It was a tradeoff. That is how you create balance and sanity in your life.
WHITFIELD: But, Lois, isn't finding balance perhaps one of the biggest challenges meeting every working woman, working at home or outside the home, trying to find the balance between your family life, your personal life and your working life, there are still a lot of women out there who say, you know what, you really can't do it all. What do you say to them?
FRANKEL: Yes, well, I agree, that finding that kind of balance is a challenge. But what you need to start doing is making conscious choices, that you can't be all things to all people or the well goes empty. And so what you need to start doing is saying yes to the things you really value, as Barbara is talking about, and no to the things that aren't going to add value to your life, either financially, emotionally, spiritually or all of those things.
WHITFIELD: In fact, Lois, something that you point out in your book, "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office," you say among the things that you really shouldn't do, and I imagine this applies both in the workplace and outside of, apologize. That women have the tendency sometimes to apologize a bit too much. Give me an example of how perhaps an apology in the workplace just really might set you back.
FRANKEL: It undermines your credibility is what it does and your professionalism. An example might be if your boss gives you an assignment with very little instructions and you go ahead and you do it the way you think is appropriate and you bring it back and the boss says, this isn't what I wanted at all. Well, the woman will tend to say, oh, I'm sorry, let me change this. Apology isn't necessary in that situation. It wasn't your fault.
WHITFIELD: But don't guys do that, too? Doesn't everyone kind of feel like they have to show some kind of deference, that instead of being combative, you want to show your boss, you know what, I'm willing to recognize a mistake was made and now let's pick up where we left off, let's move forward?
FRANKEL: I think women tend to apologize around it. Men tend to see it as a problem to be solved. So they may say something like, well, you know what, your needs weren't made clear to start with. Why don't you tell me what you need and let me go back and rework it. But they don't apologize.
WHITFIELD: Barbara, is that a common mistake that you see a lot of women making, that perhaps that they're explaining themselves all the time?
STANNY: Yes, it's a part of a bigger package of we don't value ourselves. And we tend to kind of -- we don't own our work and who we are and our power. And that thing, I'm sorry or I shouldn't do that or being deferring in any way is really self-demeaning.
WHITFIELD: I wonder if that perhaps changes when you have more women who are in managerial roles, that perhaps there won't be that kind of obsequious kind of relationship being exhibited between a woman who is trying to work her way up and her boss happens to be a man?
STANNY: I think that's what is going to get us up there, that's one of the things that's going to help us break through our own feelings in our head, is this owning our power, owning our value, not apologizing, not being obsequious, which I love that word. That's perfect. Yes, that is what is going to bring us up there.
WHITFIELD: All right, well, while we're talking about empowering women this Mother's Day weekend, it is important to note, ladies, that another trend in the workplace is as follows. More and more accomplished women are leaving their jobs to become full-time moms.
Our Louise Schiavone brings us a case in point.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, look, this is a beautiful green lollipop that mommy has.
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Meghan Broom (ph) used to direct housing and residential services at Catholic University in Washington. Her skills now are trained on her three-year-old daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you have to be real quiet like you are in church, OK?
SCHIAVONE: Broom is part of a growing trend of accomplished women leaving the workplace altogether to make sure they see their youngsters grow up. Statistics show last year roughly 57 percent of married mothers with children under age three worked, down 4 percent from 61 percent in 1997. Surveys are finding that many of these professional women want to mother and work as long as they can work fewer hours. But their demanding job requirements are an obstacle.
PAMELA STONE, SOCIOLOGIST, HUNTER COLLEGE: What I found was that women were not making choices that reflected their preferences. They were making choices that reflected the constraints, the all-or-nothing nature of the jobs that they were in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the dilemma that I found myself in. I was the director of a program. And you really couldn't have someone there part-time because they wouldn't know everything that was going on and then there would be some confusion about, okay, who is in charge.
SCHIAVONE: The women's movement swung open career doors. But this economist and mother of five says a brain drain among working women presents a new issue. SYLVIA ANN HEWLETT, ECONOMIST & AUTHOR: The second generation of challenge is how to utilize the women well over their life-span and not allow them to somehow be sidetracked or shunted off into, you know, some cul-de-sac in their 30s and not be able to come back in and -- in their maturity and contribute what they want to contribute to our economy.
SCHIAVONE: The goal is balance for parents who are prepared to take some cuts and still be able to work for both pay and love.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mama loves you, doesn't she?
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: You can't buy me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't buy you.
SCHIAVONE: Louise Schiavone, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Barbara Stanny and Lois Frankel, let's talk a little bit more about that. In fact, Lois there are a lot of women who say, you know what, they are better mothers because they work away from the home.
FRANKEL: There are a lot of women who do feel that way, that having that kind of balance in their life and that kind of stimulation allows them to come back and be with their children, obviously, in a different kind of capacity. But I think in terms of the clip we just saw, it's important to remember that upper income women have this option. And I'm not saying that a lot of middle class and lower class women having the same options.
WHITFIELD: In fact, Barbara, one of the women in that piece was really kind of explaining that it is difficult to suddenly be that employee that is not working around the clock now that there are responsibilities at home and that's a difficult challenge of trying to meet that balance. You're used to doing everything and being everyone. And then you become a mother and you still want to carry on those work responsibilities. It's hard to do that and maintain that kind of momentum.
STANNY: You know all -- what my point is, I want every woman to have the choice, whether she's in the higher income or not. What I saw is so many of the women that I interviewed had the choice because they put the money aside. It's not how much money they earned. It's what they did with what they earned so that they could make choices, so they could go back, so they could get -- step out of the work force for a little while, so they could go back in. And many of them, while they were out of the work force, still did consulting for their companies. They found some way to be involved.
WHITFIELD: All right. Barbara Stanny and Lois Frankel, hold on a minute. We're going to take your calls and e-mails in a moment and have these ladies answer some of them for you. We're going to take a short break right now. And you can still send your questions, however, to dollarsigns@cnn.com or you can call us. The number is 1- 800-807-2620. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Welcome back. We're looking at ways working women can get ahead in business today. Barbara Stanny is an expert on empowering women financially, and Lois Frankel is an expert who helps us highlight the mistakes that women make in the workplace. And ladies, we've got someone on the telephone with us, Andrea out of California, who has a question about the culture of a company. Andrea?
CALLER: Yes, I was just wondering if you could both comment on how important it is for women especially to research the corporate culture of a company prior to accepting a job. The reason I say that is I have a four-year degree from University of California. I've been a medical assistant. And what I found oftentimes is obviously medicine is many times male-dominated. You work for these surgeons. And you can work harder, do extra work, take on more responsibility. And oftentimes the whole corporate culture that you haven't realized when you took on the job is you're probably never going to get much of a raise. They'll use you basically to death. They love the fact you'll work extra hours, take on more responsibility, but financially somewhere down the road you finally realize, hey, why didn't I realize this sooner? And I think especially young women need to realize the corporate culture thing is just such an important aspect of the job.
WHITFIELD: Lois, I'll let you tackle that first.
FRANKEL: Thank you. You know, Andrea, I think you're absolutely right. It's a great comment that you're making there. It's not only the culture. It's also the nature of the business that you go into because when you start talking about fields where they are primarily women, they tend to be traditionally underpaid. They tend to be traditionally people who feel as if they're being abused. So I think the culture and thinking about the kinds of career choices that are going to enable you to achieve your financial goals.
WHITFIELD: All right, and Barbara, unless you have a comment on that, I can move on to the next caller.
STANNY: Let me just say what I learned from the women I interviewed is we have to learn how to speak up. That even the women who are in the male-dominated cultures got those promotions and got those raises because they spoke up and they asked for it
WHITFIELD: All right. Kelly from Kansas is on the telephone, who has a question about women who perhaps may be the problem as their bosses. Kelly?
CALLER: Yes.
WHITFIELD: What's your question?
CALLER: You were talking earlier about apologizing too much, and when a boss gives you an assignment to do and doesn't really tell you how to do it, and you go and do it. And that happened to me a couple of weeks ago. But my boss is a woman about 10 years younger than I am, in her 50s. And she just sat me down and treated me like a two-year- old. And I did apologize, which I didn't appreciate.
FRANKEL: Yes, Kelly. I think that's what we tend to do because that's what we grow up, being taught to do that. And I think it's important that, again, when you're in those situations that you not give away your power. We give it away so easily.
WHITFIELD: And, in fact, Lois, in your book you mention another way that women give up their power is they may couch their statements as questions, kind of come across maybe not so certain of themselves when they're having dialogue with their superiors, right?
FRANKEL: That's right. You need to make sure that when you have an opinion about something, you put it in the affirmative. That your voice doesn't go up at the end, that you don't couch it in the form of a question, because you only wind up sounding unsure of yourself and then other people wind up either taking your idea and twisting it a little and then having it as their own or all kinds of things can happen.
WHITFIELD: All right. Barbara and Lois, we're going to take a short break. We'll be right back taking more of your calls and e- mails.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Welcome back to DOLLAR $IGNS. We're talking about how to empower ourselves in the business world. And Barbara Stanny and Lois Frankel are helping us with great advice on how to do that. Tameka in Massachusetts is on the telephone, ladies. And she wants to go back to school but she has got a few concerns. Tameka, what are your concerns?
CALLER: My concern is, like I said, I'm 30 years old and I went to a modeling school as a teenager. And I wanted to go back and try to go back to school. I've already went to the school, actually, day before, actually Thursday. And I've already sent the money and everything to the school. So now in the back of my mind I'm saying, why did I do that, I should never have done that. Maybe I'm too old. And I just want to know why we have those things staying in the back of your mind, why you shouldn't do this?
WHITFIELD: Barbara?
STANNY: You know, everybody -- Lois mentioned it earlier. Every single woman I interviewed, these were powerful, very sophisticated, high level women, they all had those voices. They all had those voices that you shouldn't do that. It's just fear. It's exactly what Lois said. And the thing is you say to those voices, thank you for sharing and you do what you need to do. You don't give in to that fear. Go back to school.
WHITFIELD: Lois.
FRANKEL: Yes, I would just echo exactly what Barbara said. WHITFIELD: OK. Lisa had in Chicago is on the telephone. And again, this kind of is along the lines of having a female boss. And she says perhaps there's a problem occasionally that arises when you have a female boss who happens to be envious of you. So, Lisa, what's your question?
CALLER: Yes, it's kind of on the comment that you made earlier that you should not bring up issues in the form of a question but you should be direct. The problem is, if you are direct and your boss is -- takes that as your being argumentative, and then you're reprimanded for it, how do you get around that, especially when your boss is a woman.
WHITFIELD: Lois?
FRANKEL: Yes, well, I think that you can't stop being direct with people. But you can do what I call, add a tag line. So for example, when I tell a boss like that something directly, I might invite her opinion after. I might say something like, as you can see, I feel fairly strongly about that, but I also would be curious to know what you think. And I think by including her, then she doesn't feel as if you're trying to somehow take away any of her power or authority.
WHITFIELD: And Barbara?
STANNY: I thought what she said was just very good. But, also, you have to look at your attitude and your feelings. If you are feeling dislike for her, it's going to show. It's going to come out somehow. And she may be feeling that. My suggestion is start looking for a new job.
WHITFIELD: OK. Tina in Michigan is on the telephone. She wants to get back into the work force. So Tina, what's your question?
CALLER: I've been out of work now -- well, out of the work force now for around four years and have gone on interviews and I've had managers ask me where have you been, what have you done for four years and so on. How do I answer to that?
WHITFIELD: Barbara.
STANNY: You answer with the truth. You tell them exactly what you've been doing and you tell them -- certainly you have been doing things other than raising children. For example, have you been doing any volunteer work? Have you been using your skills anywhere? And as you tell them what you've been doing, tell them what you want to do. Tell them the skills you've used before and how you can apply them because not only your skills but your enthusiasm for the job and your commitment and how you can help them make their job easier, save them money, save them time. But...
WHITFIELD: Quickly...
STANNY: Yes. WHITFIELD: OK, sorry, but quickly, Lois, I want to get you in here, too. In your book, you also mention, don't share too much personal information. So perhaps you can still offer some advice to Lisa -- or Tina on that.
FRANKEL: Yes, but you have to share enough personal information to make yourself look human. But what you have to know is that most bosses or interviewers really don't want to know the deepest, darkest secrets of your life. So I would agree exactly with what Barbara said. I would also tell the caller to remember that in an interview you're there to create, market, sell your brand. So going in there, you have to know exactly what you have to offer so that you can head that question off at the pass and let people know you're proud of what you've done for the past four years. You're not ashamed.
WHITFIELD: All right. Barbara Stanny, Lois Frankel. Barbara Stanny, your book is "Secrets of the Six Figure Women," and Lois Frankel, "Nice Girls Don't get the Corner Office." Thanks very much to both of you ladies for helping to empower us and inspire us to become empowered this Mother's Day weekend. And Happy Mother's Day to both of you.
STANNY: Thank you.
FRANKEL: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Well, that's all we have time for right now. But stay with CNN. Up next on PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," Carly Simon and Rod Stewart. Then at 6 p.m. Eastern on "CNN LIVE SATURDAY," could the prisoner abuse scandal have been avoided?
Last year the Pentagon rejected a plan to send a congressman, who is also a military lawyer, to oversee the notorious prison in Iraq. I'll speak with -- or, I won't, but Carol Lin will be speaking with Representative Steve Buyer about that decision and what he has to say about it later on today at 6:00.
Then at 7:00 Eastern, "THE CAPITAL GANG" will take on the prisoner abuse scandal. Will Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld keep his job?
I'll be back after a short break with a look at the top stories.
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