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CNN Live Saturday

Money Saving Tips For Low Carb Dieters; Interview With Congressman Steve Buyer

Aired May 08, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN SATURDAY is ahead, but first these headlines. Congressman Steve Buyer says the Pentagon nixed an Army plan to have him oversee the Abu Ghraib prison guards early in the Iraq conflict. The Indiana Republican is a military lawyer experienced with detaining and interrogating prisoners. The Army is not commenting.
The military says a Marine was killed in overnight combat in Afghanistan. Another Marine was wounded when the patrol came under fire near Kandahar. Two attackers were killed.

Police in east Jerusalem say a blast that wounded six people in a grocery this evening was a gas explosion. Israeli forces cleared and inspected the area. They ruled out terrorism or a criminal act as the cause.

Hello there. I'm Carol Lin and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. We've all seen the pictures. But are civilians also involved in the abuse? And if so, who's in charge of punishing them? CNN's military intelligence analysts commanded an interrogation company at Fort Bragg. Ken Robinson joins me live.

Also, dieting in America. The low carb craze is ringing up huge profits for its creators. We're going to tell you how you can trim the price with a few small changes.

But right now we begin with new revelations in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. A member of Congress says he was supposed to go to Iraq last year to oversee the unit blamed for abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, but the Pentagon cancelled that plan. Stephen Buyer, a Republican says -- from Indiana says -- quote -- "It was pretty dumbfounding to me and disappointing that the Army had this plan to send me and the Office of the Secretary of Defense said 'no.'"

Buyer is a military lawyer with experience in prisoner detention and interrogation. He's also a lieutenant colonel in the Army Reserve. Buyer is a veteran of the first Gulf War. In the 1980s, he was on active duty in the Army as a member of the Judge Advocate General's Corps serving as a special assistant to the U.S. attorney in Virginia.

Representative Buyer will have more to say about the rejected plan to send him to Iraq. He's going to join me live in about a half hour. So stay tuned right here to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. But first we want to bring you much more other news. The new man in charge of Abu Ghraib prison insists it's already a changed place. Meanwhile, a military police officer who's been charged with abusing prisoners at the notorious facility is speaking out in an e-mail interview. CNN's Elaine Quijano joins us now live from Washington.

Elaine, what did you learn?

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol. Well, portions of those e-mails were published in "The Washington Post" today. And add to the already publicized contentions by some soldiers that they were under the direction of military intelligence officers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUIJANO (voice-over): She's the woman in the picture seen smiling over a pile of naked Iraqi detainees, but specialist Sabrina Harman says that was within her job duties at the Abu Ghraib prison, according to an e-mail she sent to "The Washington Post." Harman says "the job of the MP or military police was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk." She describes an environment that allowed sleep, food and clothes to be withheld from detainees in exchange for information. And, she writes "The Geneva Convention was never posted. And none of us remember taking a class to review it."

The Army's own investigation found that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were poorly prepared and untrained throughout their mission. The new general in charge of overseeing Abu Ghraib prison and others in Iraq said not only were the soldiers to blame, but also their supervisors. He says MPs are now getting new training from 31 corrections specialists, training that includes learning the Geneva Conventions.

MAJ. GEN. GEOFFREY MILLER, U.S. COMMANDER OF DETENTION OPERATIONS IN IRAQ: What we must do now is not only use words but our actions must demonstrate our continuing focus on this, our adherence to the Geneva Conventions.

QUIJANO: Despite calls from some lawmakers to tear down the Abu Ghraib prison, Major General Miller says for now it will remain open.

In Washington, some lawmakers have also called for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who testified at two Congressional hearings Friday. But a senior Pentagon official says the secretary will continue to serve at the pleasure of the president, who just days ago expressed confidence in Rumsfeld.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUIJANO: Meanwhile, there could be more fallout. "The New Yorker" magazine is said to publish another article on the abuse scandal, including a new photo described as disturbing. On Friday, Secretary Rumsfeld acknowledged to lawmakers that hundreds of other photos exist and may surface -- Carol.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Elaine Quijano. Well, President Bush is calling the abuse a stain on the country's honor and reputation. His comments come a day after Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned more damaging images may actually surface. CNN White House correspondent Dana Bash joins us now live from the White House -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. And several senior administration officials spent today trying to stop any talk, especially in Republican circles, that Donald Rumsfeld's job may really be in the line, that even as they continue a public relations strategy, to try to calm controversy over the Iraqi prisoner abuse issue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): At the White House, the vice president and other top officials participated in what a spokesman called a regular intelligence briefing with the president at Camp David by secure teleconference. Meanwhile, the damage control continues. Devoting his weekly radio address to the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, Mr. Bush again insists these were shameful acts of only a few.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Such practices do not reflect our values.

BASH: But Democrats are seething on this explosive issue as the latest example of what they call the presidential mismanagement of Iraq from the start.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Bush has made mistake after mistake as commander-in-chief; taking us first into a war we didn't have to fight alone and under false pretenses and now managing it so poorly.

BASH: With no weapons of mass destruction found, the president had broadened his defense of the Iraq war from security to morality.

BUSH: Because our coalition acted, Saddam's torture chambers are closed.

BASH: Even some Republicans now say this standard line on the stump is no longer viable on the campaign trail or around the globe.

REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: It has a terrible ring of hypocrisy. I mean obviously, the extent of the tortures is huge in Saddam's case, versus what may have happened in our case. But even one little bit prevents us from making that claim.

BASH: Bush aides say what matters most now is promising to punish those responsible.

BUSH: Those involved will be identified. They will answer for their actions.

BASH: But to restore U.S. credibility, some say contrition and punishment at lower levels will fall short and still point to the secretary of defense. MAMOUN FANDY, U.S. INISTIUTE OF PEACE: Taking some action like firing Rumsfeld, people will take notice. The pictures are too big to be just covered by ideas like we will investigate and we will follow and firing some sergeant.

BASH: Some Republicans outside the White House privately admit to growing concern Rumsfeld is a problem, not just for the mission in Iraq but the one on the home front, the president's reelection.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: But not a chance is how one senior official put it when asked if Rumsfeld may resign. And in a telling show of solidarity, a rare weekend statement from Vice President Dick Cheney, who ran the Pentagon himself. He said -- quote -- "Don Rumsfeld is the best secretary of defense the U.S. ever had and people ought to let him do his job" -- Carol.

LIN: Dana, when you talk about the White House trying to restore the U.S.'s credibility, have you heard in terms of how this scandal may be affecting other foreign policy, other issues that are burning for the Bush administration?

BASH: Well, they certainly understand that this is a big issue, clearly, in the Arab world. You heard the president himself in the Rose Garden this week with King Abdullah, the king of Jordan, talking about not just this issue but about the Mideast peace process and you heard him reaching out to the Palestinian leader. That is something -- some say perhaps might not have happened before this whole scandal occurred. So they certainly are very keen on making sure that people in the Arab world particularly understand that this is not an issue that really exemplifies America. And they want to try to definitely keep tabs and keep contacts with leaders in the Arab world to try to get those leaders to help America stop the controversy -- Carol.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much. Dana Bash live at the White House.

Well, better news here on the home front. A long journey is over now for Thomas Hamill and his recovery is just beginning. Hamill is the truck driver taken hostage in Iraq last month. He returned to his hometown of Macon, Mississippi, early this morning and he went straight home. And then this afternoon, joined his family in his front yard for a picnic. But Hamill's friends say the big celebration the town had planned is going to have to wait. CNN's Mike Brooks is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome home, Tommy!

MIKE BROOKS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (voice-over): Tommy Hamill and his wife, Kellie, stepped off a private jet early Saturday morning in Columbus, Mississippi to enthusiastic friends and supporters. He was whisked away to his home in Macon where the highway patrol escorted him straight to his door. The flags are flying on Jefferson Street. The yellow ribbons are everywhere you look. The Hamill family home is even draped in an American flag. A huge celebration that was being planned by the mayor of this town has been put on hold at the request the family at least for now.

MAYOR DOROTHY BAKER-HINES, MACON, MISSISSIPPI: Oh, gosh, we had all kinds of things planned, you know.

BROOKS: The mayor spoke with Kellie Hamill and said the family did not want a big celebration at this time.

BAKER-HINES: We were a little disappointed but we still think maybe we'll get to do something.

BROOKS: The 43-year-old Hamill, because the money was good, sold his dairy farm, left his family in Macon, Mississippi a small farming and industrial community of 3,300 people, and volunteered for the dangerous job of driving a fuel truck in Iraq for contractor, Kellogg, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They attacked our convoy.

BROOKS: He was taken hostage by insurgents April 9 near Baghdad International Airport and escaped May 2, running out of the mud hut where he was being held and flagging down a U.S. military convoy south of Tikrit. The town expressed their support of Tommy Hamill's decision to cancel the celebration.

(On camera): Are you disappointed that they're not going to have a big celebration like they were planning?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, somewhat because I knew that, you know, if he was alive, I was looking forward to Macon sure enough doing something great for him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a good gesture. It was nice and, you know, maybe one day, you can, they can do something for him like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I was looking forward to it.

BROOKS: You were?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was looking forward to it. I was on the planning committee so I was looking forward to it.

BROOKS (voice-over): Whether or not the town gets to celebrate Tommy Hamill's safe return, everyone here feels that their prayers have been answered.

Mike Brooks, CNN, Macon, Mississippi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: And coming up, divorce. It happens every day in America, but not in other regions of the world. Still to come, which country is making it legal to write Dear John?

Plus, paying the price to drop the pounds. Can you afford to be thin?

And later, he beat the odds and took home the roses. Now this colt is getting ready for the Preakness. I'm going to be talking to the trainer who's hoping for a triple crown.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Well, overnight fighting has killed one Marine on patrol in south central Afghanistan. The troops were sent in to help maintain stability in the Afghan province of Uruzgan ahead of expected elections in that country. Senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, brings us more details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): This is the first firefight the Marines have been engaged in since they arrived in Uruzgan Province two weeks ago. According to officers, they were driving into an area where they believe there were, quote -- "bad guys". It was an overnight patrol. They were engaged by a number of what were described as enemy combatants.

Now, one Marine was killed, one injured. The Marine who was injured has been medically evacuated to a U.S. medical facility in Germany. And according to the Marines here, two of the enemy combatants were killed in that gunfight. After that, the Marines have deployed a number of troops into that area, continuing operations, searching for other potential attackers in that area. This -- the killing of this particular Marine, according to one commanding officer, will have an effect on other Marines in this operation.

LT. COL. MIKE KILLION, U.S MARINE CORPS: It has a large impact. In the execution of this mission if we're going to be successful, the most critical thing is going to be restraint. And obviously, there is an emotional response to death wounds, things of that nature. So it's going to require an exceptional a self discipline, which thus far in the continuance of the operation, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and HM-266 have done a great job in exhibiting.

ROBERTSON: The Marines' mission in this area, in the Uruzgan and Kandahar Province, in central southern Afghanistan is to bring security for elections here. But according to officers, they say the way they can best do that is to get on with the local community, to coordinate all their activities with the local community. And they say at this time they believe they are doing that and they will be able to bring stability for the elections. Registration process should begin here in the next couple of days.

Nic Robertson, CNN, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right. Now, some other news from around the world. Arab ministers meet in secret in Cairo, Egypt. They're trying to resurrect an Arab League summit. The problem, finding common ground on the Palestinian-Israeli stalemate and the conflict in Iraq. Now, this comes as President Bush casts doubt about the possibility of a Palestinian state by next year. Mr. Bush called it unrealistic, disappointing Palestinians.

Germany -- police say an 18-year-old high school student is responsible for the Sasser computer virus. It raced through thousands of PCs this week, creating havoc around the world. The suspect could be charged next week.

And in Chili, couples will finally be able to divorce, despite strong opposition from the Catholic Church. The president signed a new bill making it legal, but it does not go into effect for six months.

Do you have enough cash in your stash to drop the weight?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL LEMPERT, SHOPPING EXPERT: There's no question that if you're going low carb, you got to have a lot of money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Still to come, can you afford to be thin? I'm going to help you save a few bucks as you shop with your diet list.

But first, officials say his fingerprints turned up in another country, a place where he says he's never been. Up next, we'll hear from the mother of terror suspect, Brandon Mayfield.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Investigators are trying to determine if an Oregon lawyer is connected to the deadly train bombings in Spain. Now, the FBI took Brandon Mayfield into custody after a fingerprint was linked to him. But a Spanish newspaper says investigators in Madrid doubt the fingerprint now actually belongs to Mayfield. That fingerprint found at the scene of the explosions. Our Ted Rowlands updates the investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Avnell Mayfield arrived here in Portland late this morning to support and she says, possibly, see her son later this weekend. Brandon Mayfield, a 37- year-old lawyer, remains in custody here in Portland. Mrs. Mayfield is the latest of the family and friends to come forward publicly and speak out in support of her son.

AVNELL MAYFIELD, SUSPECT'S MOTHER: As any parent, of course I'm very concerned about my son, about his future, about his wife his children, and just hoping that he gets fair representation and that, you know, things will turn out well.

ROWLANDS: Mayfield, a Portland lawyer, is being held as a material witness in connection with the March 11 terrorist attacks in Spain. Authorities in both Spain and the United States tell CNN that Mayfield's fingerprint was found on a plastic bag containing detonators similar to those used in the attacks, attacks that killed 190 people and wounded more than 1500 others.

Mayfield represented Jeffrey Battle, one of the so-called Portland seven, a group charged with planning to fight with the Taliban in Afghanistan against the United States. It is that relationship and the fact that Mayfield is a practicing Muslim that supporters say has landed him in jail.

MAYFIELD: I think he probably knew these people. He represented one of the people in a child custody case, but that's his job. He's a family lawyer. He practices family law. So I think that's probably his only connection.

ROWLANDS: Because Mayfield is being held as a material witness, the federal government, by law, can hold him for a -- quote -- "reasonable amount of time," enough time to gather his testimony in the case, either by deposition or more -- probably in this case by grand jury testimony.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Portland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: And now, checking other news across America. Rescuers in Tiverton, Rhode Island, are searching for a passenger missing from a boat accident that left three other people dead. A small pleasure craft carrying six people capsized last night in Mount Hope Bay.

In Montgomery, West Virginia, former prisoner of war Jessica Lynch gives the commencement speech at West Virginia Institute of Technology. The ex-Army supply clerk is still recovering from injuries suffered in her ordeal in Iraq last year.

In New Orleans, Senator John Kerry says young people's idealism can help overcome the shame of the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. The Democratic presidential hopeful urged graduates at Southern University today to commit to public service through programs like the Peace Corps.

The presidential election is still just six months away. But if the ballots were cast today, who would actually win? Our senior political analyst Bill Schneider examined that question and some of the factors that could change the answer by November.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Is the scandal over the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners having any political impact? Apparently, yes. Two weeks ago, President Bush had a six point lead over John Kerry. The latest Gallup Poll taken this week shows a tie among likely voters, 47 percent for Bush, 47 percent for John Kerry, and three percent for Ralph Nader. Without Nader, Kerry would be leading Bush by one point. The race looks like a dead heat.

Some Democrats are dismayed that with all of President Bush's problems in Iraq, the 9/11 Commission hearings and the gas prices, Kerry hasn't surged into the lead. They look at a tied race and say bad news. The glass is half empty. But it's also half full. Voters still don't know too much about John Kerry. Nevertheless, the challenger is running neck and neck with a popular wartime president.

The Gallup Poll suggests Kerry may finally be getting traction in this race, a three-point shift toward Kerry in the last two weeks. President Bush appears to have solidified his support in states where he was already strong. Among voters in competitive states, states that were close in 2000, Kerry has a small lead, 48 to 44 percent. Those states are likely to determine the outcome this year. President Bush's overall job rating is now 49 percent, the lowest point of his presidency. Below 50 is a good indication that most voters are prepared to vote against him. His rating on Iraq is 55 percent negative, the lowest he's ever gotten, down six points in two weeks. His rating on the economy is 56 percent negative, the lowest ever. President Bush still gets a positive rating for his handling of terrorism, but just barely. Since 9/11, Gallup has never shown more than 40 percent disapproval of the president's handling of terrorism. The current figure, 45 percent disapprove. The message of this poll is clear. President Bush is in trouble.

(on camera): In the end, the race is likely to be a referendum on President Bush. That sounds like good news for Democrats provided Senator Kerry is an acceptable alternative for the growing numbers of Americans dissatisfied with this administration.

Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: U.S. forces and interrogations coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP MORENO, FORMER INTERROGATION STUDENT: It was a dark room and it was all just like -- almost like detectives, you know, they're like pushing, shining the light in your face when really it's not. It's very methodical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Still to come, the art of interrogation. How U.S. officials get the information they need.

Plus, on the front lines, what this anti-war mom has to say about the combat in Iraq.

And later, is Smarty Jones headed for greatness? He's got the roses. Now what's next? His trainer is going to join me live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: We've got our guest straight ahead, but first I've got some news that tops this half hour. Former American hostage Thomas Hamill is back home in Macon, Mississippi. But he says his thoughts are with the Americans still in harm's way in Iraq. Hamill is expected to speak tonight at a vigil outside a Macon courthouse. Now, he quietly celebrated his homecoming with family and friends today, as you can see.

President Bush says getting a Palestinian state by 2005 may be very difficult. In an interview with an Egyptian newspaper, Mr. Bush said the idea is not as realistic as it was two years ago, but, he added he still plans to push hard to get a Palestinian state in place as quickly as possible.

Two Iraqis were killed in clashes in Basra today. Fighting erupted between supporters of the Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr and coalition troops. A British military spokesman says some demonstrators in a crowd began shooting at coalition soldiers. Three British soldiers and at least five Iraqis were wounded.

Well, in the early days of the Iraq war, the Army planned on sending Indiana Congressman Stephen Buyer to oversee MPs at Abu Ghraib prison. Buyer also happens to be a military lawyer. But Buyer says the plan was nixed by civilian officials at the Pentagon. Representative Buyer says he's disappointed that lessons learned during the first Gulf War were not applied.

Now, we did just get reaction from the Army on this story. We're going to go straight to Elaine Quijano live at the Pentagon for the latest.

What did they say about what the Congressman is saying about how the Army perhaps lost an opportunity here?

QUIJANO: Well, good evening, Carol. I'll tell you, just a short time ago, I talked to this Army official who was aware of the plan to send Congressman Buyer to Iraq, but he says that the Congressman was told that the Army would not activate him for two reasons. First, because there were other people with the experience and qualifications for the job and, secondly, because of concern over increased risk because of Congressman Buyer's status as a lawmaker, increased risk to him as well as soldiers around him. Now, beyond that, this Army official would not comment any further. But, again, responding saying that those two reasons that I just mentioned were the reasons the Army chose not to activate the Congressman -- Carol.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Elaine Quijano.

Well, the Congressman was packing his bags just a year ago March when he was told that the trip was a no-go. Congressman Stephen Buyer is joining me live today.

Congressman, very good to see you.

REP. STEVE BUYER (R), INDIANA: Good evening.

LIN: I think you heard the reaction out of the Pentagon. Elaine Quijano was saying that the military simply did not want to send you because of your status. It would be a great loss; obviously, if something physically happened to you over there, and that they had qualified people in place to do the job.

I want to be clear about when the story hit the wires about you not going a year ago, are you saying that there was a lost opportunity for the military, that if you were there, you could have prevented these abuses from happening at Abu Ghraib?

BUYER: Well, what occurred was that the Army Reserve is a force provider for the active components. And during the Gulf War, they had an opening and they were having difficulty filling it. And what they needed was a senior judge advocate that had experience in dealing with Geneva Conventions, prisoners of war, international law and operational law. And there are only two of us during the first Gulf War that served as judge advocates at prison of war camps. One, his name is Mike Carmen of Bloomington, Indiana and myself. And that's when I was identified.

So the Army Reserves coordinated with the active Army and even sent this to the director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So the uniform military wanted me to go. It was the political civilian leadership in the Office of the Secretary of Defense that said no. What they're quoting from is from a letter that the Secretary of the Army sent me. I'm a soldier. I can follow orders and stand down. But what they put in this letter was that they said that we could fill the requirement without your appearance.

LIN: Right. And they did. Congressman, and they did. So are you saying that by doing so and not having somebody with your qualifications, that it caused the abuses or may have contributed to the abuses at the prison?

BUYER: If you look at the 15-6, which is the formal investigation of these travesties that occurred, and crimes, the findings and recommendations were that judge advocates should have been at the joint interrogations facilities. That's obvious. To Mike and myself -- we talked about this -- we were stunned that the lessons learned from the first Gulf War were not used. So it's obvious that they didn't send anybody with any forms of experience. They didn't even talk to me.

And, also, the findings were that they did not have a senior judge advocate that was knowledgeable in international law, operational law and Geneva Conventions. Those were the findings of the 15-6. So what you have here is the civilian political leadership and the Army is saying one thing, but I can assure you, if you had a chance to talk to the uniformed Army, they would say something different.

LIN: So what does that tell you about the leadership not only at the prison but also the decision-making by the Army in terms of how to staff post war Iraq?

BUYER: Well, first of all, I need to correct something you said at the beginning. I would not have been the judge advocate at this particular prison. A senior judge advocate would have been with the commander of the 800th MP Brigade and that was what the job was supposed to have been.

LIN: I see.

BUYER: So -- but the real question here is since Buyer didn't go, who did go? And if the 15-6 says that there was not a qualified senior judge advocate, then what went wrong? And those are the questions that the Office of the Secretary of Defense must answer.

LIN: What would you have done differently had you gone?

BUYER: Well, the -- Mike Carmen and I talked about this. Being at the joint interrogation facility, I interrogated prisoners suspected of war crimes. It is the place that is most susceptible to abuse because it's very intense. Now, there was no evidence, no hint, no rumor of mistreatment or maltreatment during the first Gulf War. As a matter of fact, the 800th MP Brigade was exemplary in its conduct and leadership. But in here, you have a complete breakdown in the chain of command. I assure you I would have had judge advocates at these camps because I know how important it is. The JAG officers are the conscious of the law.

LIN: And a sense of accountability certainly, obviously -- that obviously did not occur.

BUYER: Well, we want to make sure that justice and accountability is in fact served here.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Representative Steve Buyer...

BUYER: All right.

LIN: ...Indiana.

Well, the photos of the laughing men and women at Abu Ghraib is contrary to the picture the Army offered to CNN a year-and-a-half ago at the Intelligence Training Center in Fort Wuachuca, Arizona. Those arrested in Iraq were military police, not interrogators. But in the wake of the scandal, we think it's instructive to again take an inside look at what the Army thinks it takes to extract critical information from the enemy. Here's CNN's Sean Callebs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is amassing an army.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's true.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's what he said last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But is he providing...

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These U.S. Army trainees are preparing to break down the enemy. They are part of the 16 1/2 week course at the Army's military Intelligence Training Center at Fort Wuachuca, Arizona that turns soldiers, often straight from basic training, into interrogators.

When he went through the school as a private, Philip Moreno was surprised at the techniques.

MORENO: People get this impression, you know, interrogation, it's a real, you know, big intimidating thing. It was like -- you know, it's a dark room and you know, there's all this like -- almost like detectives, you know, they're like pushing you, you know, shining the light in your face when really it's not. It's very methodical.

CALLEBS: Instructors and volunteers at Fort Wuachuca play roles in exercises that allow trainees to practice their approaches for getting information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's part of the insurgent organization.

CALLEBS: It's more about persuasion than coercion, a sort of mental chess game built on knowing as much about a person beforehand as possible. In this scene, then Private Timothy Schultz (ph) tries to inflate an arrogant enemy forces prisoner whose pride is his armor against questioning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's my understanding that Special Forces soldiers usually fight and that you put up a...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't want to risk the lives of my men.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, so your men. Do you even know where your men are now?

CALLEBS: A key part of the training, instructors say, is education about the humane treatment of the prisoners. William Lux was a warrant officer and instructor at the time.

WILLIAM LUX, FORMER INTERROGATION INSTRUCTOR: The one thing that you cannot do at any point in this course and pass is violate the Geneva Conventions.

CALLEBS: Sticking by the conventions is mandated. One instructor who asked that his identity not be revealed had recently questioned al Qaeda prisoners in Afghanistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to keep in mind that they're human. And if you do forget that, then you lose some of your best tools, i.e., you will be amazed at what a kind word and a cup of hot cocoa on a 15-degree night will get you as far as information.

CALLEBS: But fear is also a persuasive human emotion, keeping people uncomfortable, implying violence, and using intimidation, all without any touching, experts say, are accepted practices. The limits can be ill-defined.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Each person is different. Each subject is different that's being interrogated. Each situation is different and so there's a lot of unknowns there and that's why these interrogators are taught ethics and that's why they're taught the law of land warfare.

CALLEBS: Graduates of the course are often shipped straight to the real world of Iraq or Afghanistan where the stakes are much higher and the pressures greater than in Arizona and real information can save real lives.

Sean Callebs, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right, let's talk more about the interrogation practices of the military. CNN military intelligence analyst Ken Robinson joins me now. He commanded an interrogation company at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

Ken, when we take a look at that piece, what are we supposed to get out of this because the Army presents a very rosy picture of how its interrogators are trained. Questions on Americans 'minds, what went wrong at Abu Ghraib?

ROBINSON: What you are seeing in that piece is you're seeing soldiers who are trained in the basic levels of interrogation operations. They're not experienced. That's why you see all those manuals, all those supervisors. When they get to the field they're supposed to fall in under more experienced, more senior personnel. There's a distinction and the thing that's not clear is the delineation between the military police and chain of custody of these prisoners and the handoff to interrogators because as far as we know right now, the people that are charged, the people that are being held responsible so far, are the military police who were charged with protecting them. They have made the allegation that contractors told them that they were supposed to soften these prisoners up. And so the real root of this in the investigation that needs to come out is who gave orders to do what, when, where and how and those orders were clearly unlawful.

LIN: Who do you think gave the orders?

ROBINSON: Well, we just don't know. There's no way to know, but there's -- one thing is clear, that if there was an order given, it was an unlawful order. If there was influence given by these contractors, that also was unlawful because they're not in the chain of command.

LIN: But how much discretion -- I mean if an interrogator says, "Look, soften up the prisoners and prepare them for questioning," how much discretion to the contractors have -- do these civilians have in terms of how they go about that or what is read in the tone of that command?

ROBINSON: Well, for the contractors, there's no discretion at all because they're not supposed to touch these prisoners.

Now, I was in the Pentagon and I saw a stack of papers this high of how the high-value targets are trained -- correction, how they're interrogated. And the high-value targets, when they want to change their sleep pattern, when they want to do anything different, they have to send that up a chain of command and ask specific permission that goes all the way up to the senior leadership. And so in this case, these are not high-value target trained people. These are individuals who were policed up in cordon and search operations and possibly involved in IED explosions, et cetera. And so, they're trying to go after perishable information from those specific prisoners.

And the whole issue -- everything that looks about it right now says a breakdown in chain of command.

LIN: All right, speaking of chain of command, I just talked with Congressman Stephen Buyer about what was missing, what he was saying -- that he would have fulfilled the role of or at least heading up a system of judge advocacy where there would be this third party in the room with interrogations and overseeing the transfer of prisoners so that if something happened in the softening up of these prisoners that there would be that person stepping in and saying, "Hey, wait a minute, this is against rules, this is against policy." What do you make of what he said?

ROBINSON: Well, doctrinally, there's supposed to be a judge advocate at the brigade level in both the 800th MP Brigade and at the Military Intelligence Brigade, and they provide advice to their commanders on what's legal and what's not. And they sometimes go with commanders and visit sites. This site was being kept off limits, according to General Karpinski and she...

LIN: Is that a good excuse?

ROBSINSON: ... and she chose to acquiesce to that alleged request...

LIN: She ran the prison.

ROBINSON: ...according to her.

LIN: That was her job?

ROBINSON: Yes.

LIN: She ran the prison, so does that cut well with you?

ROBINSON: It does not, because she's in charge. And if you're in charge you have to take charge. And so, for someone to tell her, don't show up in this one section, that should have raised a red flag, in my mind. But, again, that's what she alleges she was told and we have not heard from the investigation yet to find out whether it's actually true or not. But that's her side of the story.

LIN: This story is like a moving target, Ken. Thank you very much for being with us.

ROBINSON: It's painful.

LIN: It is painful and I know it pains you because you know a lot of good men and women who do this work. Thank you.

ROBINSON: Thanks.

LIN: Well, sending a loved one off to war is a wrenching and terrifying experience for anyone. But for one family of peacemakers, the grief is compounded by the brutal irony. From Philadelphia, Alina Cho brings us this on the front line story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sherwood Baker's life was a contradiction of sorts, an Army sergeant who served in Iraq, who grew up in a family of peace activists. "The kind of kid," his brother says, "who went to the store with his parents to put anti-war stickers on toy guns and soldiers."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like most kids, we wanted to play with G.I. Joe and we wanted to play with water guns and -- but we also understood the value of what they were trying to teach us.

CHO: Baker marched in peace rallies as a kid. As a husband and father, he found another family in the Army.

CELESTE ZAPPALA, BAKER'S MOTHER: I would never say that Joe was pro war. He was a servant and a patriot. He really believed in the best of America.

CHO: In March, Baker was sent to Iraq. He died last week in an explosion in Baghdad. The 30-year-old was buried with full military honors. Fellow soldiers and their families came to grieve. A day after the funeral, Celeste Zappala wants people to understand the high cost of war, to understand her family's pain.

ZAPPALA: Understand this beautiful man who was lost. His future is lost. And all these hundreds of young people who are gone and will never know who they could be.

CHO: This unlikely military mom admits she doesn't have the answers.

ZAPPALA: I feel like we're making enemies faster than we can kill them. And we've got to find a way to peace. Somehow, we have to find a way to peace.

CHO: In the name of her son, she says she will never give up the fight.

Alina Cho, CNN, Philadelphia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: He's a new champion whose popularity just keeps on growing. Smarty Jones was the winning horse at the Kentucky Derby last weekend and that makes him the first undefeated Derby winner since Seattle Slough back in 1977. Smarty Jones gallops to Baltimore on Wednesday as he prepares for what is expected to be a highly competitive race next Saturday, the 129th Preakness. And joining me live now from Philadelphia is his trainer, John Servis.

Hi there, John.

JOHN SERVIS, SMARTY JONES' TRAINER: Hi, Carol, how are you?

LIN: You're looking pretty good.

SERVIS: Thank you.

LIN: Are you excited about next week?

SERVIS: Yes, I am, looking forward to it.

LIN: How is the Preakness different from the Derby in terms of Smarty Jones running it?

SERVIS: Well, I think it's going to be a totally different race. We have two new horses coming in that were actually trying to get in the Kentucky Derby and didn't get in because of money earnings. And they are fresh horses and they are going to be both very, very tough in the race.

LIN: Yes? All right, any predictions?

SERVIS: Well, my horse is doing really well. And like I said in Kentucky, if he wasn't, we won't be going. So we're going with a loaded gun.

LIN: A loaded gun.

SERVIS: I'm looking forward to it.

LIN: A loaded gun and a cover on "Sports Illustrated."

SERVIS: Yes.

LIN: Listen, I hear that the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority may actually be thinking about disciplining Stewart Elliott, your jockey, because he didn't disclose his criminal record for assault when he applied for his racing license in that state. What do you make of those allegations? And how is that going to affect the Preakness? Is he going to be running on Smarty Jones?

SERVIS: He's definitely going to be on Smarty Jones. And you know the media made it a lot bigger situation than it is. He's heard from Kentucky already and you know, they're going to let him ride the Preakness and I don't know if they're going to take any action at all.

LIN: Really?

SERVIS: Yes.

LIN: All right. And you still have confidence that he's got the mental wherewithal, the concentration to be able to take this maybe even to a triple crown?

SERVIS: Well, I -- you know, he's my guy and he's been through thick and thin and I've been there with him. And you know they're perfect together. So we're not making any changes.

LIN: Perfect together. Smarty Jones, how do you describe his mindset and his personality? What makes him a winner, do you think?

SERVIS: Well, he's -- when he came to me, he had a label on him from the farm that they thought he was a very talented horse. But he had so much speed and he was so immature that he just wanted to go as far as he could go as fast as he could go. And you know, we really -- one of the reasons we went through Arkansas was to try to teach him to bottle up that speed and use it at the end. And now, he's matured so well that he's turned into what all great horses are. He's turned into a push button horse and you can use him to get yourself in a good position and then he'll relax and settle right there. And when you need to call on him, you can use him again and he'll give you what he has.

LIN: Well, you know what, he learned from experience because what a great story -- personal story he is coming back from a head injury. Who knew what his future was going to be?

SERVIS: Well, he -- you know he's very lucky to be alive. I mean he beat himself up pretty good in the starting gate early in his career. They did an excellent job with him in the New Jersey Equine Center and he's come back great and he's a great horse.

LIN: He is, and he knows it. And he knows he's with good people. John Servis, good luck. We'll be watching you...

SERVIS: Thank you.

LIN: ...and following up on the story. I love the name of the horse, Smarty Jones, a winner.

Well, still to come on CNN LIVE SATURDAY, dieting. Nowadays, it may take a little more than willpower. You may need a second income. Up next, the fatter your wallet, the thinner your waist.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: With all the hype low carb diets are getting, many Americans are flocking to stores to stock up on all the essentials. But buying all those proteins and the fresh veggies can be pretty expensive. Medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen reports the diets are not only thinning waistlines but a lot of wallets, too.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Blueberries, salmon asparagus, sea bass, goat cheese. Can you afford to go on a low carb diet?

LEMPERT: There's no question that if you're going low carb, you got to have a lot of money.

COHEN (on camera): We decided to go to a grocery store to see how much it costs to go on the South Beach Diet, one of the most popular low carb diets.

(voice-over): Here's just part of the shopping list for one day's meal plan. Many recipes call for berries. These are $4 a box. This London broil will set you back nearly $10. Asparagus is $3.50 a pound, peppers $4 a pound. When you break it all down, one shopping expert says going on South Beach or Atkins costs nearly $100 a week for one person, double what most Americans spend on groceries. And that doesn't even include the prepared foods that are on the market. This Atkins chocolate bar costs $2.50.

Supermarket expert Phil Lempert says it doesn't have to be expensive, one hint, buy frozen blueberries instead of fresh.

LEMPERT: And keep in the mind, the frozen ones are actually packed at the time of freshness, so you're going to get a fresher tasting product. You could save 10, 20, 30, even 40 percent.

COHEN: Here's some other tips -- replace fish and red meat with chicken, buy frozen fish and vegetables, buy unpackaged lettuce instead of the kind in the bag. And of course, you don't have to go on a special diet to lose weight. Exercise is cheap and so is good old-fashioned just eating less.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

LIN: And that's it for us this hour. But coming up next on the "CAPITAL GANG," we'll have more of Rumsfeld in the hot seat in the wake of the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Then on 8:00 Eastern on "CNN PRESENTS," easy prey. A Romanian filmmaker returns to his native land to document child prostitution and trafficking.

And at 9:00, film star, Raquel Welch joins Larry King to talk about her career, her broken marriages and even her broken bones. And I'm going to be back at 10:00 Easter for stem cell babies. That is our hot topic. Couples having a baby just to save another child's life. Is it ethical? I'm going to debate that issue.

But right now, Mark Shields is with us to tell us what the Gang has.

Hi there, Mark.

MARK SHIELDS, "CAPITAL GANG": Hi there, Carol.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on the hot seat. The president does damage control. And what role will Laura Bush and Teresa Kerry play in the 2004 campaign? Our guest is House Deputy Majority Whip, Eric Cantor, Virginia Republican. All that and more right here next on CNN.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 8, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN SATURDAY is ahead, but first these headlines. Congressman Steve Buyer says the Pentagon nixed an Army plan to have him oversee the Abu Ghraib prison guards early in the Iraq conflict. The Indiana Republican is a military lawyer experienced with detaining and interrogating prisoners. The Army is not commenting.
The military says a Marine was killed in overnight combat in Afghanistan. Another Marine was wounded when the patrol came under fire near Kandahar. Two attackers were killed.

Police in east Jerusalem say a blast that wounded six people in a grocery this evening was a gas explosion. Israeli forces cleared and inspected the area. They ruled out terrorism or a criminal act as the cause.

Hello there. I'm Carol Lin and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. We've all seen the pictures. But are civilians also involved in the abuse? And if so, who's in charge of punishing them? CNN's military intelligence analysts commanded an interrogation company at Fort Bragg. Ken Robinson joins me live.

Also, dieting in America. The low carb craze is ringing up huge profits for its creators. We're going to tell you how you can trim the price with a few small changes.

But right now we begin with new revelations in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. A member of Congress says he was supposed to go to Iraq last year to oversee the unit blamed for abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, but the Pentagon cancelled that plan. Stephen Buyer, a Republican says -- from Indiana says -- quote -- "It was pretty dumbfounding to me and disappointing that the Army had this plan to send me and the Office of the Secretary of Defense said 'no.'"

Buyer is a military lawyer with experience in prisoner detention and interrogation. He's also a lieutenant colonel in the Army Reserve. Buyer is a veteran of the first Gulf War. In the 1980s, he was on active duty in the Army as a member of the Judge Advocate General's Corps serving as a special assistant to the U.S. attorney in Virginia.

Representative Buyer will have more to say about the rejected plan to send him to Iraq. He's going to join me live in about a half hour. So stay tuned right here to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. But first we want to bring you much more other news. The new man in charge of Abu Ghraib prison insists it's already a changed place. Meanwhile, a military police officer who's been charged with abusing prisoners at the notorious facility is speaking out in an e-mail interview. CNN's Elaine Quijano joins us now live from Washington.

Elaine, what did you learn?

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol. Well, portions of those e-mails were published in "The Washington Post" today. And add to the already publicized contentions by some soldiers that they were under the direction of military intelligence officers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUIJANO (voice-over): She's the woman in the picture seen smiling over a pile of naked Iraqi detainees, but specialist Sabrina Harman says that was within her job duties at the Abu Ghraib prison, according to an e-mail she sent to "The Washington Post." Harman says "the job of the MP or military police was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk." She describes an environment that allowed sleep, food and clothes to be withheld from detainees in exchange for information. And, she writes "The Geneva Convention was never posted. And none of us remember taking a class to review it."

The Army's own investigation found that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were poorly prepared and untrained throughout their mission. The new general in charge of overseeing Abu Ghraib prison and others in Iraq said not only were the soldiers to blame, but also their supervisors. He says MPs are now getting new training from 31 corrections specialists, training that includes learning the Geneva Conventions.

MAJ. GEN. GEOFFREY MILLER, U.S. COMMANDER OF DETENTION OPERATIONS IN IRAQ: What we must do now is not only use words but our actions must demonstrate our continuing focus on this, our adherence to the Geneva Conventions.

QUIJANO: Despite calls from some lawmakers to tear down the Abu Ghraib prison, Major General Miller says for now it will remain open.

In Washington, some lawmakers have also called for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who testified at two Congressional hearings Friday. But a senior Pentagon official says the secretary will continue to serve at the pleasure of the president, who just days ago expressed confidence in Rumsfeld.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

QUIJANO: Meanwhile, there could be more fallout. "The New Yorker" magazine is said to publish another article on the abuse scandal, including a new photo described as disturbing. On Friday, Secretary Rumsfeld acknowledged to lawmakers that hundreds of other photos exist and may surface -- Carol.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Elaine Quijano. Well, President Bush is calling the abuse a stain on the country's honor and reputation. His comments come a day after Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned more damaging images may actually surface. CNN White House correspondent Dana Bash joins us now live from the White House -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. And several senior administration officials spent today trying to stop any talk, especially in Republican circles, that Donald Rumsfeld's job may really be in the line, that even as they continue a public relations strategy, to try to calm controversy over the Iraqi prisoner abuse issue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): At the White House, the vice president and other top officials participated in what a spokesman called a regular intelligence briefing with the president at Camp David by secure teleconference. Meanwhile, the damage control continues. Devoting his weekly radio address to the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, Mr. Bush again insists these were shameful acts of only a few.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Such practices do not reflect our values.

BASH: But Democrats are seething on this explosive issue as the latest example of what they call the presidential mismanagement of Iraq from the start.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Bush has made mistake after mistake as commander-in-chief; taking us first into a war we didn't have to fight alone and under false pretenses and now managing it so poorly.

BASH: With no weapons of mass destruction found, the president had broadened his defense of the Iraq war from security to morality.

BUSH: Because our coalition acted, Saddam's torture chambers are closed.

BASH: Even some Republicans now say this standard line on the stump is no longer viable on the campaign trail or around the globe.

REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: It has a terrible ring of hypocrisy. I mean obviously, the extent of the tortures is huge in Saddam's case, versus what may have happened in our case. But even one little bit prevents us from making that claim.

BASH: Bush aides say what matters most now is promising to punish those responsible.

BUSH: Those involved will be identified. They will answer for their actions.

BASH: But to restore U.S. credibility, some say contrition and punishment at lower levels will fall short and still point to the secretary of defense. MAMOUN FANDY, U.S. INISTIUTE OF PEACE: Taking some action like firing Rumsfeld, people will take notice. The pictures are too big to be just covered by ideas like we will investigate and we will follow and firing some sergeant.

BASH: Some Republicans outside the White House privately admit to growing concern Rumsfeld is a problem, not just for the mission in Iraq but the one on the home front, the president's reelection.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: But not a chance is how one senior official put it when asked if Rumsfeld may resign. And in a telling show of solidarity, a rare weekend statement from Vice President Dick Cheney, who ran the Pentagon himself. He said -- quote -- "Don Rumsfeld is the best secretary of defense the U.S. ever had and people ought to let him do his job" -- Carol.

LIN: Dana, when you talk about the White House trying to restore the U.S.'s credibility, have you heard in terms of how this scandal may be affecting other foreign policy, other issues that are burning for the Bush administration?

BASH: Well, they certainly understand that this is a big issue, clearly, in the Arab world. You heard the president himself in the Rose Garden this week with King Abdullah, the king of Jordan, talking about not just this issue but about the Mideast peace process and you heard him reaching out to the Palestinian leader. That is something -- some say perhaps might not have happened before this whole scandal occurred. So they certainly are very keen on making sure that people in the Arab world particularly understand that this is not an issue that really exemplifies America. And they want to try to definitely keep tabs and keep contacts with leaders in the Arab world to try to get those leaders to help America stop the controversy -- Carol.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much. Dana Bash live at the White House.

Well, better news here on the home front. A long journey is over now for Thomas Hamill and his recovery is just beginning. Hamill is the truck driver taken hostage in Iraq last month. He returned to his hometown of Macon, Mississippi, early this morning and he went straight home. And then this afternoon, joined his family in his front yard for a picnic. But Hamill's friends say the big celebration the town had planned is going to have to wait. CNN's Mike Brooks is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome home, Tommy!

MIKE BROOKS, LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (voice-over): Tommy Hamill and his wife, Kellie, stepped off a private jet early Saturday morning in Columbus, Mississippi to enthusiastic friends and supporters. He was whisked away to his home in Macon where the highway patrol escorted him straight to his door. The flags are flying on Jefferson Street. The yellow ribbons are everywhere you look. The Hamill family home is even draped in an American flag. A huge celebration that was being planned by the mayor of this town has been put on hold at the request the family at least for now.

MAYOR DOROTHY BAKER-HINES, MACON, MISSISSIPPI: Oh, gosh, we had all kinds of things planned, you know.

BROOKS: The mayor spoke with Kellie Hamill and said the family did not want a big celebration at this time.

BAKER-HINES: We were a little disappointed but we still think maybe we'll get to do something.

BROOKS: The 43-year-old Hamill, because the money was good, sold his dairy farm, left his family in Macon, Mississippi a small farming and industrial community of 3,300 people, and volunteered for the dangerous job of driving a fuel truck in Iraq for contractor, Kellogg, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They attacked our convoy.

BROOKS: He was taken hostage by insurgents April 9 near Baghdad International Airport and escaped May 2, running out of the mud hut where he was being held and flagging down a U.S. military convoy south of Tikrit. The town expressed their support of Tommy Hamill's decision to cancel the celebration.

(On camera): Are you disappointed that they're not going to have a big celebration like they were planning?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, somewhat because I knew that, you know, if he was alive, I was looking forward to Macon sure enough doing something great for him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a good gesture. It was nice and, you know, maybe one day, you can, they can do something for him like that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I was looking forward to it.

BROOKS: You were?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was looking forward to it. I was on the planning committee so I was looking forward to it.

BROOKS (voice-over): Whether or not the town gets to celebrate Tommy Hamill's safe return, everyone here feels that their prayers have been answered.

Mike Brooks, CNN, Macon, Mississippi.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: And coming up, divorce. It happens every day in America, but not in other regions of the world. Still to come, which country is making it legal to write Dear John?

Plus, paying the price to drop the pounds. Can you afford to be thin?

And later, he beat the odds and took home the roses. Now this colt is getting ready for the Preakness. I'm going to be talking to the trainer who's hoping for a triple crown.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Well, overnight fighting has killed one Marine on patrol in south central Afghanistan. The troops were sent in to help maintain stability in the Afghan province of Uruzgan ahead of expected elections in that country. Senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, brings us more details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): This is the first firefight the Marines have been engaged in since they arrived in Uruzgan Province two weeks ago. According to officers, they were driving into an area where they believe there were, quote -- "bad guys". It was an overnight patrol. They were engaged by a number of what were described as enemy combatants.

Now, one Marine was killed, one injured. The Marine who was injured has been medically evacuated to a U.S. medical facility in Germany. And according to the Marines here, two of the enemy combatants were killed in that gunfight. After that, the Marines have deployed a number of troops into that area, continuing operations, searching for other potential attackers in that area. This -- the killing of this particular Marine, according to one commanding officer, will have an effect on other Marines in this operation.

LT. COL. MIKE KILLION, U.S MARINE CORPS: It has a large impact. In the execution of this mission if we're going to be successful, the most critical thing is going to be restraint. And obviously, there is an emotional response to death wounds, things of that nature. So it's going to require an exceptional a self discipline, which thus far in the continuance of the operation, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and HM-266 have done a great job in exhibiting.

ROBERTSON: The Marines' mission in this area, in the Uruzgan and Kandahar Province, in central southern Afghanistan is to bring security for elections here. But according to officers, they say the way they can best do that is to get on with the local community, to coordinate all their activities with the local community. And they say at this time they believe they are doing that and they will be able to bring stability for the elections. Registration process should begin here in the next couple of days.

Nic Robertson, CNN, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right. Now, some other news from around the world. Arab ministers meet in secret in Cairo, Egypt. They're trying to resurrect an Arab League summit. The problem, finding common ground on the Palestinian-Israeli stalemate and the conflict in Iraq. Now, this comes as President Bush casts doubt about the possibility of a Palestinian state by next year. Mr. Bush called it unrealistic, disappointing Palestinians.

Germany -- police say an 18-year-old high school student is responsible for the Sasser computer virus. It raced through thousands of PCs this week, creating havoc around the world. The suspect could be charged next week.

And in Chili, couples will finally be able to divorce, despite strong opposition from the Catholic Church. The president signed a new bill making it legal, but it does not go into effect for six months.

Do you have enough cash in your stash to drop the weight?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL LEMPERT, SHOPPING EXPERT: There's no question that if you're going low carb, you got to have a lot of money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Still to come, can you afford to be thin? I'm going to help you save a few bucks as you shop with your diet list.

But first, officials say his fingerprints turned up in another country, a place where he says he's never been. Up next, we'll hear from the mother of terror suspect, Brandon Mayfield.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Investigators are trying to determine if an Oregon lawyer is connected to the deadly train bombings in Spain. Now, the FBI took Brandon Mayfield into custody after a fingerprint was linked to him. But a Spanish newspaper says investigators in Madrid doubt the fingerprint now actually belongs to Mayfield. That fingerprint found at the scene of the explosions. Our Ted Rowlands updates the investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Avnell Mayfield arrived here in Portland late this morning to support and she says, possibly, see her son later this weekend. Brandon Mayfield, a 37- year-old lawyer, remains in custody here in Portland. Mrs. Mayfield is the latest of the family and friends to come forward publicly and speak out in support of her son.

AVNELL MAYFIELD, SUSPECT'S MOTHER: As any parent, of course I'm very concerned about my son, about his future, about his wife his children, and just hoping that he gets fair representation and that, you know, things will turn out well.

ROWLANDS: Mayfield, a Portland lawyer, is being held as a material witness in connection with the March 11 terrorist attacks in Spain. Authorities in both Spain and the United States tell CNN that Mayfield's fingerprint was found on a plastic bag containing detonators similar to those used in the attacks, attacks that killed 190 people and wounded more than 1500 others.

Mayfield represented Jeffrey Battle, one of the so-called Portland seven, a group charged with planning to fight with the Taliban in Afghanistan against the United States. It is that relationship and the fact that Mayfield is a practicing Muslim that supporters say has landed him in jail.

MAYFIELD: I think he probably knew these people. He represented one of the people in a child custody case, but that's his job. He's a family lawyer. He practices family law. So I think that's probably his only connection.

ROWLANDS: Because Mayfield is being held as a material witness, the federal government, by law, can hold him for a -- quote -- "reasonable amount of time," enough time to gather his testimony in the case, either by deposition or more -- probably in this case by grand jury testimony.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Portland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: And now, checking other news across America. Rescuers in Tiverton, Rhode Island, are searching for a passenger missing from a boat accident that left three other people dead. A small pleasure craft carrying six people capsized last night in Mount Hope Bay.

In Montgomery, West Virginia, former prisoner of war Jessica Lynch gives the commencement speech at West Virginia Institute of Technology. The ex-Army supply clerk is still recovering from injuries suffered in her ordeal in Iraq last year.

In New Orleans, Senator John Kerry says young people's idealism can help overcome the shame of the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. The Democratic presidential hopeful urged graduates at Southern University today to commit to public service through programs like the Peace Corps.

The presidential election is still just six months away. But if the ballots were cast today, who would actually win? Our senior political analyst Bill Schneider examined that question and some of the factors that could change the answer by November.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Is the scandal over the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners having any political impact? Apparently, yes. Two weeks ago, President Bush had a six point lead over John Kerry. The latest Gallup Poll taken this week shows a tie among likely voters, 47 percent for Bush, 47 percent for John Kerry, and three percent for Ralph Nader. Without Nader, Kerry would be leading Bush by one point. The race looks like a dead heat.

Some Democrats are dismayed that with all of President Bush's problems in Iraq, the 9/11 Commission hearings and the gas prices, Kerry hasn't surged into the lead. They look at a tied race and say bad news. The glass is half empty. But it's also half full. Voters still don't know too much about John Kerry. Nevertheless, the challenger is running neck and neck with a popular wartime president.

The Gallup Poll suggests Kerry may finally be getting traction in this race, a three-point shift toward Kerry in the last two weeks. President Bush appears to have solidified his support in states where he was already strong. Among voters in competitive states, states that were close in 2000, Kerry has a small lead, 48 to 44 percent. Those states are likely to determine the outcome this year. President Bush's overall job rating is now 49 percent, the lowest point of his presidency. Below 50 is a good indication that most voters are prepared to vote against him. His rating on Iraq is 55 percent negative, the lowest he's ever gotten, down six points in two weeks. His rating on the economy is 56 percent negative, the lowest ever. President Bush still gets a positive rating for his handling of terrorism, but just barely. Since 9/11, Gallup has never shown more than 40 percent disapproval of the president's handling of terrorism. The current figure, 45 percent disapprove. The message of this poll is clear. President Bush is in trouble.

(on camera): In the end, the race is likely to be a referendum on President Bush. That sounds like good news for Democrats provided Senator Kerry is an acceptable alternative for the growing numbers of Americans dissatisfied with this administration.

Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: U.S. forces and interrogations coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP MORENO, FORMER INTERROGATION STUDENT: It was a dark room and it was all just like -- almost like detectives, you know, they're like pushing, shining the light in your face when really it's not. It's very methodical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Still to come, the art of interrogation. How U.S. officials get the information they need.

Plus, on the front lines, what this anti-war mom has to say about the combat in Iraq.

And later, is Smarty Jones headed for greatness? He's got the roses. Now what's next? His trainer is going to join me live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: We've got our guest straight ahead, but first I've got some news that tops this half hour. Former American hostage Thomas Hamill is back home in Macon, Mississippi. But he says his thoughts are with the Americans still in harm's way in Iraq. Hamill is expected to speak tonight at a vigil outside a Macon courthouse. Now, he quietly celebrated his homecoming with family and friends today, as you can see.

President Bush says getting a Palestinian state by 2005 may be very difficult. In an interview with an Egyptian newspaper, Mr. Bush said the idea is not as realistic as it was two years ago, but, he added he still plans to push hard to get a Palestinian state in place as quickly as possible.

Two Iraqis were killed in clashes in Basra today. Fighting erupted between supporters of the Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr and coalition troops. A British military spokesman says some demonstrators in a crowd began shooting at coalition soldiers. Three British soldiers and at least five Iraqis were wounded.

Well, in the early days of the Iraq war, the Army planned on sending Indiana Congressman Stephen Buyer to oversee MPs at Abu Ghraib prison. Buyer also happens to be a military lawyer. But Buyer says the plan was nixed by civilian officials at the Pentagon. Representative Buyer says he's disappointed that lessons learned during the first Gulf War were not applied.

Now, we did just get reaction from the Army on this story. We're going to go straight to Elaine Quijano live at the Pentagon for the latest.

What did they say about what the Congressman is saying about how the Army perhaps lost an opportunity here?

QUIJANO: Well, good evening, Carol. I'll tell you, just a short time ago, I talked to this Army official who was aware of the plan to send Congressman Buyer to Iraq, but he says that the Congressman was told that the Army would not activate him for two reasons. First, because there were other people with the experience and qualifications for the job and, secondly, because of concern over increased risk because of Congressman Buyer's status as a lawmaker, increased risk to him as well as soldiers around him. Now, beyond that, this Army official would not comment any further. But, again, responding saying that those two reasons that I just mentioned were the reasons the Army chose not to activate the Congressman -- Carol.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Elaine Quijano.

Well, the Congressman was packing his bags just a year ago March when he was told that the trip was a no-go. Congressman Stephen Buyer is joining me live today.

Congressman, very good to see you.

REP. STEVE BUYER (R), INDIANA: Good evening.

LIN: I think you heard the reaction out of the Pentagon. Elaine Quijano was saying that the military simply did not want to send you because of your status. It would be a great loss; obviously, if something physically happened to you over there, and that they had qualified people in place to do the job.

I want to be clear about when the story hit the wires about you not going a year ago, are you saying that there was a lost opportunity for the military, that if you were there, you could have prevented these abuses from happening at Abu Ghraib?

BUYER: Well, what occurred was that the Army Reserve is a force provider for the active components. And during the Gulf War, they had an opening and they were having difficulty filling it. And what they needed was a senior judge advocate that had experience in dealing with Geneva Conventions, prisoners of war, international law and operational law. And there are only two of us during the first Gulf War that served as judge advocates at prison of war camps. One, his name is Mike Carmen of Bloomington, Indiana and myself. And that's when I was identified.

So the Army Reserves coordinated with the active Army and even sent this to the director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So the uniform military wanted me to go. It was the political civilian leadership in the Office of the Secretary of Defense that said no. What they're quoting from is from a letter that the Secretary of the Army sent me. I'm a soldier. I can follow orders and stand down. But what they put in this letter was that they said that we could fill the requirement without your appearance.

LIN: Right. And they did. Congressman, and they did. So are you saying that by doing so and not having somebody with your qualifications, that it caused the abuses or may have contributed to the abuses at the prison?

BUYER: If you look at the 15-6, which is the formal investigation of these travesties that occurred, and crimes, the findings and recommendations were that judge advocates should have been at the joint interrogations facilities. That's obvious. To Mike and myself -- we talked about this -- we were stunned that the lessons learned from the first Gulf War were not used. So it's obvious that they didn't send anybody with any forms of experience. They didn't even talk to me.

And, also, the findings were that they did not have a senior judge advocate that was knowledgeable in international law, operational law and Geneva Conventions. Those were the findings of the 15-6. So what you have here is the civilian political leadership and the Army is saying one thing, but I can assure you, if you had a chance to talk to the uniformed Army, they would say something different.

LIN: So what does that tell you about the leadership not only at the prison but also the decision-making by the Army in terms of how to staff post war Iraq?

BUYER: Well, first of all, I need to correct something you said at the beginning. I would not have been the judge advocate at this particular prison. A senior judge advocate would have been with the commander of the 800th MP Brigade and that was what the job was supposed to have been.

LIN: I see.

BUYER: So -- but the real question here is since Buyer didn't go, who did go? And if the 15-6 says that there was not a qualified senior judge advocate, then what went wrong? And those are the questions that the Office of the Secretary of Defense must answer.

LIN: What would you have done differently had you gone?

BUYER: Well, the -- Mike Carmen and I talked about this. Being at the joint interrogation facility, I interrogated prisoners suspected of war crimes. It is the place that is most susceptible to abuse because it's very intense. Now, there was no evidence, no hint, no rumor of mistreatment or maltreatment during the first Gulf War. As a matter of fact, the 800th MP Brigade was exemplary in its conduct and leadership. But in here, you have a complete breakdown in the chain of command. I assure you I would have had judge advocates at these camps because I know how important it is. The JAG officers are the conscious of the law.

LIN: And a sense of accountability certainly, obviously -- that obviously did not occur.

BUYER: Well, we want to make sure that justice and accountability is in fact served here.

LIN: All right. Thank you very much, Representative Steve Buyer...

BUYER: All right.

LIN: ...Indiana.

Well, the photos of the laughing men and women at Abu Ghraib is contrary to the picture the Army offered to CNN a year-and-a-half ago at the Intelligence Training Center in Fort Wuachuca, Arizona. Those arrested in Iraq were military police, not interrogators. But in the wake of the scandal, we think it's instructive to again take an inside look at what the Army thinks it takes to extract critical information from the enemy. Here's CNN's Sean Callebs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is amassing an army.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's true.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's what he said last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But is he providing...

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These U.S. Army trainees are preparing to break down the enemy. They are part of the 16 1/2 week course at the Army's military Intelligence Training Center at Fort Wuachuca, Arizona that turns soldiers, often straight from basic training, into interrogators.

When he went through the school as a private, Philip Moreno was surprised at the techniques.

MORENO: People get this impression, you know, interrogation, it's a real, you know, big intimidating thing. It was like -- you know, it's a dark room and you know, there's all this like -- almost like detectives, you know, they're like pushing you, you know, shining the light in your face when really it's not. It's very methodical.

CALLEBS: Instructors and volunteers at Fort Wuachuca play roles in exercises that allow trainees to practice their approaches for getting information.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's part of the insurgent organization.

CALLEBS: It's more about persuasion than coercion, a sort of mental chess game built on knowing as much about a person beforehand as possible. In this scene, then Private Timothy Schultz (ph) tries to inflate an arrogant enemy forces prisoner whose pride is his armor against questioning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's my understanding that Special Forces soldiers usually fight and that you put up a...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't want to risk the lives of my men.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, so your men. Do you even know where your men are now?

CALLEBS: A key part of the training, instructors say, is education about the humane treatment of the prisoners. William Lux was a warrant officer and instructor at the time.

WILLIAM LUX, FORMER INTERROGATION INSTRUCTOR: The one thing that you cannot do at any point in this course and pass is violate the Geneva Conventions.

CALLEBS: Sticking by the conventions is mandated. One instructor who asked that his identity not be revealed had recently questioned al Qaeda prisoners in Afghanistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to keep in mind that they're human. And if you do forget that, then you lose some of your best tools, i.e., you will be amazed at what a kind word and a cup of hot cocoa on a 15-degree night will get you as far as information.

CALLEBS: But fear is also a persuasive human emotion, keeping people uncomfortable, implying violence, and using intimidation, all without any touching, experts say, are accepted practices. The limits can be ill-defined.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Each person is different. Each subject is different that's being interrogated. Each situation is different and so there's a lot of unknowns there and that's why these interrogators are taught ethics and that's why they're taught the law of land warfare.

CALLEBS: Graduates of the course are often shipped straight to the real world of Iraq or Afghanistan where the stakes are much higher and the pressures greater than in Arizona and real information can save real lives.

Sean Callebs, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right, let's talk more about the interrogation practices of the military. CNN military intelligence analyst Ken Robinson joins me now. He commanded an interrogation company at Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

Ken, when we take a look at that piece, what are we supposed to get out of this because the Army presents a very rosy picture of how its interrogators are trained. Questions on Americans 'minds, what went wrong at Abu Ghraib?

ROBINSON: What you are seeing in that piece is you're seeing soldiers who are trained in the basic levels of interrogation operations. They're not experienced. That's why you see all those manuals, all those supervisors. When they get to the field they're supposed to fall in under more experienced, more senior personnel. There's a distinction and the thing that's not clear is the delineation between the military police and chain of custody of these prisoners and the handoff to interrogators because as far as we know right now, the people that are charged, the people that are being held responsible so far, are the military police who were charged with protecting them. They have made the allegation that contractors told them that they were supposed to soften these prisoners up. And so the real root of this in the investigation that needs to come out is who gave orders to do what, when, where and how and those orders were clearly unlawful.

LIN: Who do you think gave the orders?

ROBINSON: Well, we just don't know. There's no way to know, but there's -- one thing is clear, that if there was an order given, it was an unlawful order. If there was influence given by these contractors, that also was unlawful because they're not in the chain of command.

LIN: But how much discretion -- I mean if an interrogator says, "Look, soften up the prisoners and prepare them for questioning," how much discretion to the contractors have -- do these civilians have in terms of how they go about that or what is read in the tone of that command?

ROBINSON: Well, for the contractors, there's no discretion at all because they're not supposed to touch these prisoners.

Now, I was in the Pentagon and I saw a stack of papers this high of how the high-value targets are trained -- correction, how they're interrogated. And the high-value targets, when they want to change their sleep pattern, when they want to do anything different, they have to send that up a chain of command and ask specific permission that goes all the way up to the senior leadership. And so in this case, these are not high-value target trained people. These are individuals who were policed up in cordon and search operations and possibly involved in IED explosions, et cetera. And so, they're trying to go after perishable information from those specific prisoners.

And the whole issue -- everything that looks about it right now says a breakdown in chain of command.

LIN: All right, speaking of chain of command, I just talked with Congressman Stephen Buyer about what was missing, what he was saying -- that he would have fulfilled the role of or at least heading up a system of judge advocacy where there would be this third party in the room with interrogations and overseeing the transfer of prisoners so that if something happened in the softening up of these prisoners that there would be that person stepping in and saying, "Hey, wait a minute, this is against rules, this is against policy." What do you make of what he said?

ROBINSON: Well, doctrinally, there's supposed to be a judge advocate at the brigade level in both the 800th MP Brigade and at the Military Intelligence Brigade, and they provide advice to their commanders on what's legal and what's not. And they sometimes go with commanders and visit sites. This site was being kept off limits, according to General Karpinski and she...

LIN: Is that a good excuse?

ROBSINSON: ... and she chose to acquiesce to that alleged request...

LIN: She ran the prison.

ROBINSON: ...according to her.

LIN: That was her job?

ROBINSON: Yes.

LIN: She ran the prison, so does that cut well with you?

ROBINSON: It does not, because she's in charge. And if you're in charge you have to take charge. And so, for someone to tell her, don't show up in this one section, that should have raised a red flag, in my mind. But, again, that's what she alleges she was told and we have not heard from the investigation yet to find out whether it's actually true or not. But that's her side of the story.

LIN: This story is like a moving target, Ken. Thank you very much for being with us.

ROBINSON: It's painful.

LIN: It is painful and I know it pains you because you know a lot of good men and women who do this work. Thank you.

ROBINSON: Thanks.

LIN: Well, sending a loved one off to war is a wrenching and terrifying experience for anyone. But for one family of peacemakers, the grief is compounded by the brutal irony. From Philadelphia, Alina Cho brings us this on the front line story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sherwood Baker's life was a contradiction of sorts, an Army sergeant who served in Iraq, who grew up in a family of peace activists. "The kind of kid," his brother says, "who went to the store with his parents to put anti-war stickers on toy guns and soldiers."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like most kids, we wanted to play with G.I. Joe and we wanted to play with water guns and -- but we also understood the value of what they were trying to teach us.

CHO: Baker marched in peace rallies as a kid. As a husband and father, he found another family in the Army.

CELESTE ZAPPALA, BAKER'S MOTHER: I would never say that Joe was pro war. He was a servant and a patriot. He really believed in the best of America.

CHO: In March, Baker was sent to Iraq. He died last week in an explosion in Baghdad. The 30-year-old was buried with full military honors. Fellow soldiers and their families came to grieve. A day after the funeral, Celeste Zappala wants people to understand the high cost of war, to understand her family's pain.

ZAPPALA: Understand this beautiful man who was lost. His future is lost. And all these hundreds of young people who are gone and will never know who they could be.

CHO: This unlikely military mom admits she doesn't have the answers.

ZAPPALA: I feel like we're making enemies faster than we can kill them. And we've got to find a way to peace. Somehow, we have to find a way to peace.

CHO: In the name of her son, she says she will never give up the fight.

Alina Cho, CNN, Philadelphia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: He's a new champion whose popularity just keeps on growing. Smarty Jones was the winning horse at the Kentucky Derby last weekend and that makes him the first undefeated Derby winner since Seattle Slough back in 1977. Smarty Jones gallops to Baltimore on Wednesday as he prepares for what is expected to be a highly competitive race next Saturday, the 129th Preakness. And joining me live now from Philadelphia is his trainer, John Servis.

Hi there, John.

JOHN SERVIS, SMARTY JONES' TRAINER: Hi, Carol, how are you?

LIN: You're looking pretty good.

SERVIS: Thank you.

LIN: Are you excited about next week?

SERVIS: Yes, I am, looking forward to it.

LIN: How is the Preakness different from the Derby in terms of Smarty Jones running it?

SERVIS: Well, I think it's going to be a totally different race. We have two new horses coming in that were actually trying to get in the Kentucky Derby and didn't get in because of money earnings. And they are fresh horses and they are going to be both very, very tough in the race.

LIN: Yes? All right, any predictions?

SERVIS: Well, my horse is doing really well. And like I said in Kentucky, if he wasn't, we won't be going. So we're going with a loaded gun.

LIN: A loaded gun.

SERVIS: I'm looking forward to it.

LIN: A loaded gun and a cover on "Sports Illustrated."

SERVIS: Yes.

LIN: Listen, I hear that the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority may actually be thinking about disciplining Stewart Elliott, your jockey, because he didn't disclose his criminal record for assault when he applied for his racing license in that state. What do you make of those allegations? And how is that going to affect the Preakness? Is he going to be running on Smarty Jones?

SERVIS: He's definitely going to be on Smarty Jones. And you know the media made it a lot bigger situation than it is. He's heard from Kentucky already and you know, they're going to let him ride the Preakness and I don't know if they're going to take any action at all.

LIN: Really?

SERVIS: Yes.

LIN: All right. And you still have confidence that he's got the mental wherewithal, the concentration to be able to take this maybe even to a triple crown?

SERVIS: Well, I -- you know, he's my guy and he's been through thick and thin and I've been there with him. And you know they're perfect together. So we're not making any changes.

LIN: Perfect together. Smarty Jones, how do you describe his mindset and his personality? What makes him a winner, do you think?

SERVIS: Well, he's -- when he came to me, he had a label on him from the farm that they thought he was a very talented horse. But he had so much speed and he was so immature that he just wanted to go as far as he could go as fast as he could go. And you know, we really -- one of the reasons we went through Arkansas was to try to teach him to bottle up that speed and use it at the end. And now, he's matured so well that he's turned into what all great horses are. He's turned into a push button horse and you can use him to get yourself in a good position and then he'll relax and settle right there. And when you need to call on him, you can use him again and he'll give you what he has.

LIN: Well, you know what, he learned from experience because what a great story -- personal story he is coming back from a head injury. Who knew what his future was going to be?

SERVIS: Well, he -- you know he's very lucky to be alive. I mean he beat himself up pretty good in the starting gate early in his career. They did an excellent job with him in the New Jersey Equine Center and he's come back great and he's a great horse.

LIN: He is, and he knows it. And he knows he's with good people. John Servis, good luck. We'll be watching you...

SERVIS: Thank you.

LIN: ...and following up on the story. I love the name of the horse, Smarty Jones, a winner.

Well, still to come on CNN LIVE SATURDAY, dieting. Nowadays, it may take a little more than willpower. You may need a second income. Up next, the fatter your wallet, the thinner your waist.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: With all the hype low carb diets are getting, many Americans are flocking to stores to stock up on all the essentials. But buying all those proteins and the fresh veggies can be pretty expensive. Medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen reports the diets are not only thinning waistlines but a lot of wallets, too.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Blueberries, salmon asparagus, sea bass, goat cheese. Can you afford to go on a low carb diet?

LEMPERT: There's no question that if you're going low carb, you got to have a lot of money.

COHEN (on camera): We decided to go to a grocery store to see how much it costs to go on the South Beach Diet, one of the most popular low carb diets.

(voice-over): Here's just part of the shopping list for one day's meal plan. Many recipes call for berries. These are $4 a box. This London broil will set you back nearly $10. Asparagus is $3.50 a pound, peppers $4 a pound. When you break it all down, one shopping expert says going on South Beach or Atkins costs nearly $100 a week for one person, double what most Americans spend on groceries. And that doesn't even include the prepared foods that are on the market. This Atkins chocolate bar costs $2.50.

Supermarket expert Phil Lempert says it doesn't have to be expensive, one hint, buy frozen blueberries instead of fresh.

LEMPERT: And keep in the mind, the frozen ones are actually packed at the time of freshness, so you're going to get a fresher tasting product. You could save 10, 20, 30, even 40 percent.

COHEN: Here's some other tips -- replace fish and red meat with chicken, buy frozen fish and vegetables, buy unpackaged lettuce instead of the kind in the bag. And of course, you don't have to go on a special diet to lose weight. Exercise is cheap and so is good old-fashioned just eating less.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

LIN: And that's it for us this hour. But coming up next on the "CAPITAL GANG," we'll have more of Rumsfeld in the hot seat in the wake of the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Then on 8:00 Eastern on "CNN PRESENTS," easy prey. A Romanian filmmaker returns to his native land to document child prostitution and trafficking.

And at 9:00, film star, Raquel Welch joins Larry King to talk about her career, her broken marriages and even her broken bones. And I'm going to be back at 10:00 Easter for stem cell babies. That is our hot topic. Couples having a baby just to save another child's life. Is it ethical? I'm going to debate that issue.

But right now, Mark Shields is with us to tell us what the Gang has.

Hi there, Mark.

MARK SHIELDS, "CAPITAL GANG": Hi there, Carol.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on the hot seat. The president does damage control. And what role will Laura Bush and Teresa Kerry play in the 2004 campaign? Our guest is House Deputy Majority Whip, Eric Cantor, Virginia Republican. All that and more right here next on CNN.

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