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CNN Live Saturday
Interview with Mark Kimmitt; Donald Rumsfeld Changes Interrogation Rules
Aired May 15, 2004 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's 12:00 Noon in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. I'm Betty Nguyen at CNN Global Headquarters in Atlanta.
Ahead this hour: New tactics for the U.S. Military after the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners. Live with the latest.
While on the frontlines in Iraq, a young soldier deals with life and death decisions on the battlefield and the impact they may have for a lifetime. Later:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CMDR. FRANK HOLLEY, U.S. NAVY: I don't care how many times you've done this. You go up there, your knees are shaking, you get a queasiness in the pit of your stomach because you're going to deliver some really tough news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NGUYEN: How the U.S. Military trains troops to deliver the worst news possible.
But, now the top stories.
Doctors are performing tests today on Reverend Billy Graham. He's hospitalized in stable condition in North Carolina following a fall at his home near Asheville. The 85-year-old evangelist has also been recovering from a hip operation in January.
Two Israeli helicopter attacks wounded at least 15 people in Gaza. Palestinian witnesses say the targets included the home of an Islamic Jihad leader. The Israelis say it was a bomb making facility used to coordinate terrorist attacks.
Secretary of State Colin Powell says he held constructive personal talks with Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qorei. The aim is to start stalled talk between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Today's talks took place in Jordan just prior to the opening of the World Economic Forum.
In the wake of a surprise visit to Iraq by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, America's top commander in Baghdad is backing away from harsh methods of interrogating prisoners, more from Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon.
Hi Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Betty. Basically, U.S. forces are being put on notice that the rules of the interrogation game have changed. After an extensive review, the commander, General Ricardo Sanchez announced that these previously accepted tactics which included hooding, sleep deprivation, keeping prisoners in stressful positions for long periods of time are now barred. Those had been allowed previously with advance approval of the commanding general. And from the United States, a full-court press on the abuse cases at Abu Ghraib Prison. Both the top military spokesman in Iraq and the U.S. secretary of state assuring the world that the court-martials, that begin next week, are only the start of making certain that those responsible are held accountable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our many friends around the world share our anguish right now about the revelations of abuse at Abu Ghraib, and I can tell you straight from my heart, we will deal with this, we will see that justice is done, we will make sure that any problems we had within our system of command are dealt with.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: So, we conducted other investigations, and more investigations. So, I think when we look back in a couple of years will we be very proud of what happened at Abu Ghraib? Absolutely not. But, will we be proud of the actions that we took upon discovery of the abuse. How it was investigated, and how it was adjudicated through the legal system. I think we'll be proud of that. Justice will be served.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOCH: The military has announced a new abuse investigation, but this time in Afghanistan. A Saturday statement from the U.S.-led coalition there says that there is this new allegation of abuse from a detainee. No details were given, but only this report now that it is being looked into, and this comes after that same coalition announced in midweek that it had launched an investigation into a complaint by a prisoner who was held at a U.S. base east of Kabul who said he was beaten, stripped naked, that he was deprived of sleep, he was photographed and he was exposed to freezing temperatures. So Betty, the U.S. military taking every one of these cases seriously.
NGUYEN: CNN's Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon. Thank you.
So, just how high up the chain of command does responsibility go? But for some, not very high at all; details on that from Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The attorney for one of the accused ringleaders of the abused, Specialist Charles Graner, says this photo shows not just Graner and two other military police, but also four enlisted men from military intelligence, along with a civilian translator. Graner insists higher ups were well aware of the cooperation between the prison guards and interrogators and the methods they used to soften prisoners up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was an interrogation center. He was being directed by military intelligence officers and others in the Intel community and felt these were lawful orders, he had to obey those orders.
MCINTYRE: But, another accused soldier, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, who has agreed to plead guilty and testify against the other six, says senior enlisted and officers were unaware of the mistreatment.
"Our command would have slammed us," Sivits told investigators in a sworn statement, "they believe in doing the right thing...if they saw what was going on, there would be Hell to pay."
Sivits says it was Graner who ordered the Iraqis to strip in Arabic and forced them into the pyramid of naked bodies. Sivits' statement details abuse beyond humiliation, in one case, he says Graner punched the detainee with a closed fist so hard in the temple that the detainee was knocked unconscious.
In another case, says Sivits, Sergeant Javal Davis, another accused soldier, stomped on either the fingers or toes of the detainees, causing them to scream loudly.
(on camera): In the wake of the controversy, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Lieutenant General Sanchez, has now banned a number of aggressive interrogation techniques, things like sensory deprivation, sleep adjustment, and stress positions. The one technique that's still permitted, but only with high level approval is isolating prisoners for more than 30 days.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NGUYEN: Both President Bush and Senator John Kerry have come out strongly against the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, the issue is getting attention to the campaign trail. To the White House now and Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Betty, the Bush administration has taken a hit when it comes to the president's approval rating because of the latest events, the Iraqi abuse scandal as well as the beheading of an American civilian inside Iraq, now less than 50 percent approving of how the president is doing his job. But the president, as well as other top officials insisting that with the prison abuse scandal this was an aberration, that those who are guilty will be held accountable. President Bush today, using his weekly radio address to make his case.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our country has great respect for the Iraqi people, and we are determined to expose and punish the abuse of Iraqi detainees. Charges have been filed against seven soldiers, and the first trial is set to begin next week. My administration and our military are determined that such abuses never happen again.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, it seems as if the Bush administration has weathered the storm at least this week's storm. There were at least four democratic senators in the beginning of the week calling for Rumsfeld resignation. Those calls have quieted, but there are still many who are suggesting, including the president's opponent Senator John Kerry, that this goes much farther up the chain of command.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have a duty to guarantee that when mistakes are made; those responsible are held accountable whether they are at the bottom of the chain of command or at the top.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: And Betty, it is yet to be seen how this all is going to play out in the long-term. In the short-term we are seeing the latest poll numbers showing President Bush taking a blow. We are now seeing polls that show a 51 percent of voters polled would vote for Kerry as opposed to about 46 percent, Bush -- Betty.
NGUYEN: CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Thank you.
The Iraqi prisoner mistreatment case has raised concerns about the training military guards undergo. Just what does it allow them to do and what is off limits. With us now from Houston, retired Major General Charles Hines, an expert on military police training and interrogation.
Thanks for joining us.
MAJ. GEN. CHARLES HINES, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Hello.
NGUYEN: Hello. First of all, let's break this down, what kind of training do military police get?
HINES: Military police receive training on the law of land warfare, the Geneva Convention, basic training that all soldiers receive. They receive training on military police interrogations which deal with the investigation of crimes. But military police receive no training on the intelligence interrogation of prisoners for intelligence matters. Military police, as a matter of fact, are really prohibited from engaging in that kind of interrogation.
NGUYEN: So, they can't assist in any way as far as interrogations go?
HINES: Military police in a confinement facility. The only obligation that I know of that exists, at least endocrine, is military police provide a place where such -- within the correctional or confinement facility where interrogation can be conducted by military intelligence personnel. But participating in those interrogations is prohibited.
NGUYEN: OK, so what is legal when handling prisoners?
HINES: Well, we process, safeguard, protect, make sure that the prisoner is kept out of harm's way to the best of our ability, that -- fed, clothed, treated humanely. Officers are segregated from enlisted, but primarily our job is to protect and secure these prisoners of war and detainees to make sure that they don't become an impediment to combat operations and also to make sure that their safety is provided for.
NGUYEN: And all M.P.s are briefed on the Geneva Convention?
HINES: All soldiers, all military police and all soldiers are briefed on that.
NGUYEN: OK, that being said, yet we see these pictures. What happened then, if they're not supposed to assist interrogations?
HINES: Well, someone violated standing rules and orders and you don't need the Geneva Convention or the Hague or any other kind of protocol done to understand that Americans don't engage in this kind of conduct. If they did that, whoever directed it, or whoever conducted that training, they should be severely punished.
NGUYEN: So, what you're saying is regardless of who said what to who about what to do during these interrogations or assisting these interrogations that these M.P.s should know right from wrong?
HINES: Absolutely. American military policemen are trained to -- not to do this, and as a matter of fact, you don't need a convention, a rule or regulation to understand that Americans don't participate in this kind of conduct.
NGUYEN: Now you were recently quoted in an article in the "New Yorker" as to saying that this would have never happened when you were in the military. What's changed?
HINES: Well, I -- I was asked a hypothetical question as to whether or not I would have issued an order that would have facilitated this kind of abuse. And I said no, I would not have issued such an order. And I didn't know that I didn't know anyone who would issue such an order to me, but if, hypothetically, if I had ever issued such an order, I probably would have been court-martialed and required to leave the service. And with regards to what's changed, I don't believe the general environment has changed. I don't think the rules have changed, I think we have a major and critical departure from established rules, regulations, and procedures, and this is so critical for our country that we have to find out how, in fact, this occurred and to make sure it doesn't happen again.
NGUYEN: Retired Major General, Charles Hines, we thank you for your time.
HINES: You're welcome, thank you.
NGUYEN: A deadly 24 hours in Iraq for U.S. forces: A convoy comes under attack in Baghdad, that story after the break.
Also, the stress of a soldier's life on the frontlines: How one American withstands the pressure. And later:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's one of those things that when you're trained, you just pray that you never have to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NGUYEN: The toughest job in the military, how officers are trained to deliver news of a soldier's death. You are watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: On a day when President Bush promises again to stay the course in Iraq. there have been more violent obstacles toward peace. In the northern city of Mosul, an attack, insurgents launched a mortar attack on Iraqi civilians lined up outside an Army recruitment center. Four were killed and at least 15 were hurt.
The holy city of Karbala is another trouble spot. Overnight, battles between U.S. forces and insurgents left three Iraqis dead and at least 13 others wounded. Militia for radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr are holed up in Karbala. Now, insurgents target forces in Baghdad's green zone where the U.S.-led coalition is based. A rocket or mortar attack damaged a few vehicles, there have been no reports of injury.
Meanwhile, it's been a deadly 24 hours for U.S. forces. Five soldiers have died, three in separate attacks in and around Baghdad.
As of today, 782 U.S. forces have died since the war began in Iraq. The military is responsible for delivering the devastating news to each fallen soldier's family. It's a duty of dismay, the Marines are taught to deliver that with concern and care. The story now from Thelma Gutierrez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On behalf of the Marine Corps, I regret to inform that you your husband was killed in action.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are words no military family wants to hear. Delivered by an officer, no family wants to see.
LT. JOHN KENNY, U.S. NAVY: Somebody's walking up to the door in their dress uniforms, that something tragic has happened.
GUTIERREZ: But it is an officer's duty. Lieutenant Colonel Russell Pherris remembers the visit he made. LT. COL. RUSSELL PHERRIS, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Real early a.m. morning, family's sleeping, woke them up and then went ahead and notified them what had happened.
KENNY: You didn't even get a chance to breathe in a sense, because it was one right after another.
GUTIERREZ: Lieutenant John Kenny made seven visits in one month.
(on camera): Did you know any of these people?
KENNY: I knew every one of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you do get assigned it's probably going to be one of the most difficult things you have to do in your career.
GUTIERREZ (voice-over): These are the casualty assistants calls officers or CACOs in training at the Marine Corps Air Station in Miramar, California.
CMDR. FRANK HOLLEY, U.S. NAVY: This is, for military members, the absolute, most dramatic, worse information because you're there to inform them of a death or very serious injury.
GUTIERREZ: It's the military's way of caring for their own. On this day, 75 Marines are taught what to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma'am, sir, I have some very important information to tell you.
GUTIERREZ: They're taught not what to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not say they passed away. Do not say they're no longer with us. Those terms gives them false hope that they are not dead.
GUTIERREZ: And they're taught to expect the unexpected.
HOLLEY: You have to think on your feet and observe and in some instances duck, step back from the door so you don't get hit in the face with the door as they slam it in your face.
GUTIERREZ: The CACO not only delivers the news, they will help with the funeral arrangements, and later the complicated life decisions that have to be made.
HOLLEY: Once there were telegrams and now we have really concerned, compassionate care, because we extend that to our families, because -- you know, should something ever happen to me, I mean, I would want that extended to my wife and family, as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can we come in?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't do this.
GUTIERREZ: The students role play. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was killed in a mortar round attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How -- where is he? Can I -- when I can see him?
HOLLEY: I don't care how many times you've done this, you go up there, your knees are shaking, you get a queasiness in the pit of your stomach because you're going to deliver some really tough news.
GUTIERREZ: The students know when this class is over, they may soon get the call to step in as a CACO.
KENNY: It's one of those things that when you're trained you pray that you never have to do it.
GUTIERREZ: Thelma Gutierrez, CNN, Miramar, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NGUYEN: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Earlier we brought you live from Baghdad the daily coalition briefing on Iraq with Major General Mark Kimmitt and Coalition Spokesman Dan Senor. They're with us again live from the Iraqi capitol.
Thanks for joining us gentlemen.
DAN SENOR, COALITION SPOKESMAN: Good to be with you.
NGUYEN: Well it's been a difficult 24 hours for U.S. troops, Brigadier General Kimmett, let's start with you. Let's talk about those attacks in Mosul and Karbala and kind of progress and setbacks have been made.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT: Well, in the case of Mosul, there were no American injuries up there, that was an attack on an Iraqi recruiting station. We sadly lost four Iraqis in that, but no coalition casualties. We've had fights down in both Karbala and Najaf, and in both those cases we've lost a couple of American soldiers, and -- but we have made tremendous progress in destroying Muqtada's militia in cornering in Muqtada into the town of Najaf and Kufa. So, we think we're making progress and we certainly are assisting the Iraqi police as they are trying to reestablish control over those two cities.
NGUYEN: Let's talk about the green zone in Baghdad, that was hit. Are you seeing insurgents getting bolder?
KIMMITT: No, in fact, the number of attacks against the green zone have gone down tremendously over the past couple of months. We've had attacks by rockets, probably daily back in the November- December time period. This was, I think, the first attack we've had in the green zone in about two weeks, possibly three. NGUYEN: So you're beefing up forces there to prevent that?
KIMMITT: Well, I don't think we need to beef up forces in the green zone. We have advocate coverage here in the green zone. Where we need the forces are out in the streets in some of other cities -- you know, patrolling up and down the streets of those cities.
NGUYEN: And let's now talk about Muqtada al-Sadr and the progress being made there. There was talk earlier that there may be some sort of an agreement. What's the status of that?
KIMMITT: Well, we have a different agreement with Muqtada every other day. He comes forward with offers, the next day he rejects them, the next day he comes up with new ones and he rejects it after that. It's important to understand that we continue to seek a peaceful solution as long as our conditions are met. Muqtada al-Sadr must face Iraqi justice and his militia must disband. If those two conditions are met, then we will be able to achieve what we're attempting to achieve with him.
NGUYEN: As we look forward to this hand over, are you seeing any kind of a timeframe with al-Sadr?
KIMMITT: We certainly are not look at a timeframe. We're trying to go to Muqtada al-Sadr every day. The sooner he turns himself into Iraqi justices, as soon as -- as soon as his militia disbands, we'll consider the issues with Muqtada finished.
NGUYEN: Do you feel you are seeing any kind of progress there?
KIMMITT: Well, we've got a number of Iraqi notables that are coming to our assistance to try to negotiate on the behalf of the coalition, the opportunity to get Muqtada behind bars and to see his militia go away. We're making a little more progress today than we did yesterday, but we still have some ways to go.
NGUYEN: Mr. Senor, let's talk to you now about the upcoming court-martials. What is the timeline, give an idea of the progress being made and if there are new developments in that.
SENOR: Well, as General Kimmitt has announced earlier in the week. The first one is May 19, we'll just have to let the process play out here. Don't want to prejudge the outcome, of course, it's highly sensitive and it's the product of a serious investigation.
NGUYEN: And talk to us now a little bit about the changes that are being made in Iraq. Changes to prevent these types of things from happening, the photos that we've seen so much of in the past couple of weeks?
SENOR: I'll let General Kimmitt speak to that. These were decisions that were made by Lieutenant General Sanchez. Do you want to?
KIMMITT: Yeah, in fact, General Miller has come over who used to run Guantanamo and it was brought over the 21st of last month, he's made tremendous progress in the short time that he's been here in terms of cleaning up some of the discrepancies that we found at Abu Ghraib, and tightening up the procedures that were so abysmally followed, as can you see from the photographs.
NGUYEN: And we saw some 300 prisoners being released later in the week, this past week, I should say, and any expectation that we're going to see more than that? Because, I know they were wanting to reduce the number of prisoners in Abu Ghraib?
KIMMITT: No, in fact, in about the next week to ten days, we're going to release another 400 prisoners, as well. We've taken them through the due process, most demonstrated the willingness to go into the communities and serve the nation of Iraq rather than a terrorist group or former a regime element. And you're right, that is going to reduce the population of Abu Ghraib, we're going to try to get it down considerably from where it was as recently as two months ago.
NGUYEN: Let's talk bout these additional photos. Congress got a look at them this past week. Is there any indication -- these photos have been widespread. We understand the military has seen a lot of it, it's been spreading around, are you seeing them on the streets of Baghdad?
KIMMITT: No, we're really not. We've seen a couple in some of the newspapers, but they don't seem to be spread around. You don't see them on handbills, you don't see them on posters, you don't see them on leaflets, frankly, I think the Iraqi people are as disgusted with those photos as we are and they don't want to have anything to do with them.
NGUYEN: OK, let's shift now to the handover on June 30. What are preparations like right now? How's that going?
SENOR: Things are moving forward quite quickly. We have -- you see, June 30 is not just one single date where we flip a switch and hand the keys over to the Iraqi people. It's the combination of a gradual process, and that process is well under way. Wide consultations with the Iraqi people on how to form the interim government, Lakhdar Brahimi, the U.N.'s general secretary special representative here working on forming that interim government along side the coalition. Ambassador Bremer has been meeting everyday with the Iraqi political leaders, trade unions, labor unions, teachers, civic leaders from across the country to kind of get a sense of what the shape and the look of that interim government should be. Mr. Brahimi's doing the same.
We're also handing ministries over now, something like half the ministries in Iraq's cabinet have been turned over to the Iraqi ministers. They're running the ministries now, Ambassador Bremer is not, and hopefully between now and June 30, we -- that process culminates where the ministries are handed over. So, the process of handing over sovereignty is already underway, just doesn't happen on June 30, and things are moving on schedule.
NGUYEN: And do we expect to hear some names about that interim government, who's going to be holding what position sometime fairly soon?
SENOR: Sure, Mr. Brahimi has made it clear that he wants to be able to begin to unveil that government before June 30. So I don't want to specify or peg a date to it, but I think that'll happen before June 30.
NGUYEN: And as we prepare for this handover, how well are Iraqis prepared for this, especially the police force there in Iraq?
SENOR: Well, I think Iraqis are prepared to assume the governmental responsibilities, day to day operational government responsibilities inside this country. They demonstrated it all over the country, the municipal level, the provincial level, the national level. But we've also set all along, on the security side, that there will be a significant terror threat here after June 30. And the Iraqi security forces will not be in a position to handle that on their own. Some of them have performed heroically and professionally and they will continue to do so. But, they will still need support, they'll still need help from us, they want it, they made that clear us to, their leaders have made that clear to us, so we'll continue to be here after June 30 to help stabilize the situation. It's in nobody's interest, certainly not America's interest to pull our troops out of here and let Iraq destabilize.
NGUYEN: Brigadier General Kimmitt, I'm going to give you the last question, here. Donald Rumsfeld, of course, made that surprise visit, there. How is that affecting troops? What kind of a reaction are you seeing?
KIMMITT: Oh, it was overwhelmingly positive. The troops have a great affection for the secretary of defense. He has a way of talking to the troops that most officers don't have. They love to see him over here. It was great to see him over here, he had some pretty inspiring words, and I know he left feeling pretty good about the troops, and the troops left feeling good about him.
NGUYEN: All right, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt and coalition spokesman Dan Senor, we appreciate your time today.
SENOR: Good to be with you.
KIMMITTT: Thank you.
NGUYEN: And you want to stay tuned, there's much more to come right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired May 15, 2004 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's 12:00 Noon in Washington, 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. I'm Betty Nguyen at CNN Global Headquarters in Atlanta.
Ahead this hour: New tactics for the U.S. Military after the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners. Live with the latest.
While on the frontlines in Iraq, a young soldier deals with life and death decisions on the battlefield and the impact they may have for a lifetime. Later:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CMDR. FRANK HOLLEY, U.S. NAVY: I don't care how many times you've done this. You go up there, your knees are shaking, you get a queasiness in the pit of your stomach because you're going to deliver some really tough news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NGUYEN: How the U.S. Military trains troops to deliver the worst news possible.
But, now the top stories.
Doctors are performing tests today on Reverend Billy Graham. He's hospitalized in stable condition in North Carolina following a fall at his home near Asheville. The 85-year-old evangelist has also been recovering from a hip operation in January.
Two Israeli helicopter attacks wounded at least 15 people in Gaza. Palestinian witnesses say the targets included the home of an Islamic Jihad leader. The Israelis say it was a bomb making facility used to coordinate terrorist attacks.
Secretary of State Colin Powell says he held constructive personal talks with Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qorei. The aim is to start stalled talk between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Today's talks took place in Jordan just prior to the opening of the World Economic Forum.
In the wake of a surprise visit to Iraq by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, America's top commander in Baghdad is backing away from harsh methods of interrogating prisoners, more from Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon.
Hi Kathleen.
KATHLEEN KOCH CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Betty. Basically, U.S. forces are being put on notice that the rules of the interrogation game have changed. After an extensive review, the commander, General Ricardo Sanchez announced that these previously accepted tactics which included hooding, sleep deprivation, keeping prisoners in stressful positions for long periods of time are now barred. Those had been allowed previously with advance approval of the commanding general. And from the United States, a full-court press on the abuse cases at Abu Ghraib Prison. Both the top military spokesman in Iraq and the U.S. secretary of state assuring the world that the court-martials, that begin next week, are only the start of making certain that those responsible are held accountable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our many friends around the world share our anguish right now about the revelations of abuse at Abu Ghraib, and I can tell you straight from my heart, we will deal with this, we will see that justice is done, we will make sure that any problems we had within our system of command are dealt with.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: So, we conducted other investigations, and more investigations. So, I think when we look back in a couple of years will we be very proud of what happened at Abu Ghraib? Absolutely not. But, will we be proud of the actions that we took upon discovery of the abuse. How it was investigated, and how it was adjudicated through the legal system. I think we'll be proud of that. Justice will be served.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOCH: The military has announced a new abuse investigation, but this time in Afghanistan. A Saturday statement from the U.S.-led coalition there says that there is this new allegation of abuse from a detainee. No details were given, but only this report now that it is being looked into, and this comes after that same coalition announced in midweek that it had launched an investigation into a complaint by a prisoner who was held at a U.S. base east of Kabul who said he was beaten, stripped naked, that he was deprived of sleep, he was photographed and he was exposed to freezing temperatures. So Betty, the U.S. military taking every one of these cases seriously.
NGUYEN: CNN's Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon. Thank you.
So, just how high up the chain of command does responsibility go? But for some, not very high at all; details on that from Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The attorney for one of the accused ringleaders of the abused, Specialist Charles Graner, says this photo shows not just Graner and two other military police, but also four enlisted men from military intelligence, along with a civilian translator. Graner insists higher ups were well aware of the cooperation between the prison guards and interrogators and the methods they used to soften prisoners up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was an interrogation center. He was being directed by military intelligence officers and others in the Intel community and felt these were lawful orders, he had to obey those orders.
MCINTYRE: But, another accused soldier, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, who has agreed to plead guilty and testify against the other six, says senior enlisted and officers were unaware of the mistreatment.
"Our command would have slammed us," Sivits told investigators in a sworn statement, "they believe in doing the right thing...if they saw what was going on, there would be Hell to pay."
Sivits says it was Graner who ordered the Iraqis to strip in Arabic and forced them into the pyramid of naked bodies. Sivits' statement details abuse beyond humiliation, in one case, he says Graner punched the detainee with a closed fist so hard in the temple that the detainee was knocked unconscious.
In another case, says Sivits, Sergeant Javal Davis, another accused soldier, stomped on either the fingers or toes of the detainees, causing them to scream loudly.
(on camera): In the wake of the controversy, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Lieutenant General Sanchez, has now banned a number of aggressive interrogation techniques, things like sensory deprivation, sleep adjustment, and stress positions. The one technique that's still permitted, but only with high level approval is isolating prisoners for more than 30 days.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NGUYEN: Both President Bush and Senator John Kerry have come out strongly against the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, the issue is getting attention to the campaign trail. To the White House now and Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Betty, the Bush administration has taken a hit when it comes to the president's approval rating because of the latest events, the Iraqi abuse scandal as well as the beheading of an American civilian inside Iraq, now less than 50 percent approving of how the president is doing his job. But the president, as well as other top officials insisting that with the prison abuse scandal this was an aberration, that those who are guilty will be held accountable. President Bush today, using his weekly radio address to make his case.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our country has great respect for the Iraqi people, and we are determined to expose and punish the abuse of Iraqi detainees. Charges have been filed against seven soldiers, and the first trial is set to begin next week. My administration and our military are determined that such abuses never happen again.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, it seems as if the Bush administration has weathered the storm at least this week's storm. There were at least four democratic senators in the beginning of the week calling for Rumsfeld resignation. Those calls have quieted, but there are still many who are suggesting, including the president's opponent Senator John Kerry, that this goes much farther up the chain of command.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have a duty to guarantee that when mistakes are made; those responsible are held accountable whether they are at the bottom of the chain of command or at the top.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: And Betty, it is yet to be seen how this all is going to play out in the long-term. In the short-term we are seeing the latest poll numbers showing President Bush taking a blow. We are now seeing polls that show a 51 percent of voters polled would vote for Kerry as opposed to about 46 percent, Bush -- Betty.
NGUYEN: CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Thank you.
The Iraqi prisoner mistreatment case has raised concerns about the training military guards undergo. Just what does it allow them to do and what is off limits. With us now from Houston, retired Major General Charles Hines, an expert on military police training and interrogation.
Thanks for joining us.
MAJ. GEN. CHARLES HINES, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Hello.
NGUYEN: Hello. First of all, let's break this down, what kind of training do military police get?
HINES: Military police receive training on the law of land warfare, the Geneva Convention, basic training that all soldiers receive. They receive training on military police interrogations which deal with the investigation of crimes. But military police receive no training on the intelligence interrogation of prisoners for intelligence matters. Military police, as a matter of fact, are really prohibited from engaging in that kind of interrogation.
NGUYEN: So, they can't assist in any way as far as interrogations go?
HINES: Military police in a confinement facility. The only obligation that I know of that exists, at least endocrine, is military police provide a place where such -- within the correctional or confinement facility where interrogation can be conducted by military intelligence personnel. But participating in those interrogations is prohibited.
NGUYEN: OK, so what is legal when handling prisoners?
HINES: Well, we process, safeguard, protect, make sure that the prisoner is kept out of harm's way to the best of our ability, that -- fed, clothed, treated humanely. Officers are segregated from enlisted, but primarily our job is to protect and secure these prisoners of war and detainees to make sure that they don't become an impediment to combat operations and also to make sure that their safety is provided for.
NGUYEN: And all M.P.s are briefed on the Geneva Convention?
HINES: All soldiers, all military police and all soldiers are briefed on that.
NGUYEN: OK, that being said, yet we see these pictures. What happened then, if they're not supposed to assist interrogations?
HINES: Well, someone violated standing rules and orders and you don't need the Geneva Convention or the Hague or any other kind of protocol done to understand that Americans don't engage in this kind of conduct. If they did that, whoever directed it, or whoever conducted that training, they should be severely punished.
NGUYEN: So, what you're saying is regardless of who said what to who about what to do during these interrogations or assisting these interrogations that these M.P.s should know right from wrong?
HINES: Absolutely. American military policemen are trained to -- not to do this, and as a matter of fact, you don't need a convention, a rule or regulation to understand that Americans don't participate in this kind of conduct.
NGUYEN: Now you were recently quoted in an article in the "New Yorker" as to saying that this would have never happened when you were in the military. What's changed?
HINES: Well, I -- I was asked a hypothetical question as to whether or not I would have issued an order that would have facilitated this kind of abuse. And I said no, I would not have issued such an order. And I didn't know that I didn't know anyone who would issue such an order to me, but if, hypothetically, if I had ever issued such an order, I probably would have been court-martialed and required to leave the service. And with regards to what's changed, I don't believe the general environment has changed. I don't think the rules have changed, I think we have a major and critical departure from established rules, regulations, and procedures, and this is so critical for our country that we have to find out how, in fact, this occurred and to make sure it doesn't happen again.
NGUYEN: Retired Major General, Charles Hines, we thank you for your time.
HINES: You're welcome, thank you.
NGUYEN: A deadly 24 hours in Iraq for U.S. forces: A convoy comes under attack in Baghdad, that story after the break.
Also, the stress of a soldier's life on the frontlines: How one American withstands the pressure. And later:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's one of those things that when you're trained, you just pray that you never have to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NGUYEN: The toughest job in the military, how officers are trained to deliver news of a soldier's death. You are watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: On a day when President Bush promises again to stay the course in Iraq. there have been more violent obstacles toward peace. In the northern city of Mosul, an attack, insurgents launched a mortar attack on Iraqi civilians lined up outside an Army recruitment center. Four were killed and at least 15 were hurt.
The holy city of Karbala is another trouble spot. Overnight, battles between U.S. forces and insurgents left three Iraqis dead and at least 13 others wounded. Militia for radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr are holed up in Karbala. Now, insurgents target forces in Baghdad's green zone where the U.S.-led coalition is based. A rocket or mortar attack damaged a few vehicles, there have been no reports of injury.
Meanwhile, it's been a deadly 24 hours for U.S. forces. Five soldiers have died, three in separate attacks in and around Baghdad.
As of today, 782 U.S. forces have died since the war began in Iraq. The military is responsible for delivering the devastating news to each fallen soldier's family. It's a duty of dismay, the Marines are taught to deliver that with concern and care. The story now from Thelma Gutierrez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On behalf of the Marine Corps, I regret to inform that you your husband was killed in action.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are words no military family wants to hear. Delivered by an officer, no family wants to see.
LT. JOHN KENNY, U.S. NAVY: Somebody's walking up to the door in their dress uniforms, that something tragic has happened.
GUTIERREZ: But it is an officer's duty. Lieutenant Colonel Russell Pherris remembers the visit he made. LT. COL. RUSSELL PHERRIS, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Real early a.m. morning, family's sleeping, woke them up and then went ahead and notified them what had happened.
KENNY: You didn't even get a chance to breathe in a sense, because it was one right after another.
GUTIERREZ: Lieutenant John Kenny made seven visits in one month.
(on camera): Did you know any of these people?
KENNY: I knew every one of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you do get assigned it's probably going to be one of the most difficult things you have to do in your career.
GUTIERREZ (voice-over): These are the casualty assistants calls officers or CACOs in training at the Marine Corps Air Station in Miramar, California.
CMDR. FRANK HOLLEY, U.S. NAVY: This is, for military members, the absolute, most dramatic, worse information because you're there to inform them of a death or very serious injury.
GUTIERREZ: It's the military's way of caring for their own. On this day, 75 Marines are taught what to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ma'am, sir, I have some very important information to tell you.
GUTIERREZ: They're taught not what to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do not say they passed away. Do not say they're no longer with us. Those terms gives them false hope that they are not dead.
GUTIERREZ: And they're taught to expect the unexpected.
HOLLEY: You have to think on your feet and observe and in some instances duck, step back from the door so you don't get hit in the face with the door as they slam it in your face.
GUTIERREZ: The CACO not only delivers the news, they will help with the funeral arrangements, and later the complicated life decisions that have to be made.
HOLLEY: Once there were telegrams and now we have really concerned, compassionate care, because we extend that to our families, because -- you know, should something ever happen to me, I mean, I would want that extended to my wife and family, as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can we come in?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't do this.
GUTIERREZ: The students role play. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was killed in a mortar round attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How -- where is he? Can I -- when I can see him?
HOLLEY: I don't care how many times you've done this, you go up there, your knees are shaking, you get a queasiness in the pit of your stomach because you're going to deliver some really tough news.
GUTIERREZ: The students know when this class is over, they may soon get the call to step in as a CACO.
KENNY: It's one of those things that when you're trained you pray that you never have to do it.
GUTIERREZ: Thelma Gutierrez, CNN, Miramar, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NGUYEN: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NGUYEN: Earlier we brought you live from Baghdad the daily coalition briefing on Iraq with Major General Mark Kimmitt and Coalition Spokesman Dan Senor. They're with us again live from the Iraqi capitol.
Thanks for joining us gentlemen.
DAN SENOR, COALITION SPOKESMAN: Good to be with you.
NGUYEN: Well it's been a difficult 24 hours for U.S. troops, Brigadier General Kimmett, let's start with you. Let's talk about those attacks in Mosul and Karbala and kind of progress and setbacks have been made.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT: Well, in the case of Mosul, there were no American injuries up there, that was an attack on an Iraqi recruiting station. We sadly lost four Iraqis in that, but no coalition casualties. We've had fights down in both Karbala and Najaf, and in both those cases we've lost a couple of American soldiers, and -- but we have made tremendous progress in destroying Muqtada's militia in cornering in Muqtada into the town of Najaf and Kufa. So, we think we're making progress and we certainly are assisting the Iraqi police as they are trying to reestablish control over those two cities.
NGUYEN: Let's talk about the green zone in Baghdad, that was hit. Are you seeing insurgents getting bolder?
KIMMITT: No, in fact, the number of attacks against the green zone have gone down tremendously over the past couple of months. We've had attacks by rockets, probably daily back in the November- December time period. This was, I think, the first attack we've had in the green zone in about two weeks, possibly three. NGUYEN: So you're beefing up forces there to prevent that?
KIMMITT: Well, I don't think we need to beef up forces in the green zone. We have advocate coverage here in the green zone. Where we need the forces are out in the streets in some of other cities -- you know, patrolling up and down the streets of those cities.
NGUYEN: And let's now talk about Muqtada al-Sadr and the progress being made there. There was talk earlier that there may be some sort of an agreement. What's the status of that?
KIMMITT: Well, we have a different agreement with Muqtada every other day. He comes forward with offers, the next day he rejects them, the next day he comes up with new ones and he rejects it after that. It's important to understand that we continue to seek a peaceful solution as long as our conditions are met. Muqtada al-Sadr must face Iraqi justice and his militia must disband. If those two conditions are met, then we will be able to achieve what we're attempting to achieve with him.
NGUYEN: As we look forward to this hand over, are you seeing any kind of a timeframe with al-Sadr?
KIMMITT: We certainly are not look at a timeframe. We're trying to go to Muqtada al-Sadr every day. The sooner he turns himself into Iraqi justices, as soon as -- as soon as his militia disbands, we'll consider the issues with Muqtada finished.
NGUYEN: Do you feel you are seeing any kind of progress there?
KIMMITT: Well, we've got a number of Iraqi notables that are coming to our assistance to try to negotiate on the behalf of the coalition, the opportunity to get Muqtada behind bars and to see his militia go away. We're making a little more progress today than we did yesterday, but we still have some ways to go.
NGUYEN: Mr. Senor, let's talk to you now about the upcoming court-martials. What is the timeline, give an idea of the progress being made and if there are new developments in that.
SENOR: Well, as General Kimmitt has announced earlier in the week. The first one is May 19, we'll just have to let the process play out here. Don't want to prejudge the outcome, of course, it's highly sensitive and it's the product of a serious investigation.
NGUYEN: And talk to us now a little bit about the changes that are being made in Iraq. Changes to prevent these types of things from happening, the photos that we've seen so much of in the past couple of weeks?
SENOR: I'll let General Kimmitt speak to that. These were decisions that were made by Lieutenant General Sanchez. Do you want to?
KIMMITT: Yeah, in fact, General Miller has come over who used to run Guantanamo and it was brought over the 21st of last month, he's made tremendous progress in the short time that he's been here in terms of cleaning up some of the discrepancies that we found at Abu Ghraib, and tightening up the procedures that were so abysmally followed, as can you see from the photographs.
NGUYEN: And we saw some 300 prisoners being released later in the week, this past week, I should say, and any expectation that we're going to see more than that? Because, I know they were wanting to reduce the number of prisoners in Abu Ghraib?
KIMMITT: No, in fact, in about the next week to ten days, we're going to release another 400 prisoners, as well. We've taken them through the due process, most demonstrated the willingness to go into the communities and serve the nation of Iraq rather than a terrorist group or former a regime element. And you're right, that is going to reduce the population of Abu Ghraib, we're going to try to get it down considerably from where it was as recently as two months ago.
NGUYEN: Let's talk bout these additional photos. Congress got a look at them this past week. Is there any indication -- these photos have been widespread. We understand the military has seen a lot of it, it's been spreading around, are you seeing them on the streets of Baghdad?
KIMMITT: No, we're really not. We've seen a couple in some of the newspapers, but they don't seem to be spread around. You don't see them on handbills, you don't see them on posters, you don't see them on leaflets, frankly, I think the Iraqi people are as disgusted with those photos as we are and they don't want to have anything to do with them.
NGUYEN: OK, let's shift now to the handover on June 30. What are preparations like right now? How's that going?
SENOR: Things are moving forward quite quickly. We have -- you see, June 30 is not just one single date where we flip a switch and hand the keys over to the Iraqi people. It's the combination of a gradual process, and that process is well under way. Wide consultations with the Iraqi people on how to form the interim government, Lakhdar Brahimi, the U.N.'s general secretary special representative here working on forming that interim government along side the coalition. Ambassador Bremer has been meeting everyday with the Iraqi political leaders, trade unions, labor unions, teachers, civic leaders from across the country to kind of get a sense of what the shape and the look of that interim government should be. Mr. Brahimi's doing the same.
We're also handing ministries over now, something like half the ministries in Iraq's cabinet have been turned over to the Iraqi ministers. They're running the ministries now, Ambassador Bremer is not, and hopefully between now and June 30, we -- that process culminates where the ministries are handed over. So, the process of handing over sovereignty is already underway, just doesn't happen on June 30, and things are moving on schedule.
NGUYEN: And do we expect to hear some names about that interim government, who's going to be holding what position sometime fairly soon?
SENOR: Sure, Mr. Brahimi has made it clear that he wants to be able to begin to unveil that government before June 30. So I don't want to specify or peg a date to it, but I think that'll happen before June 30.
NGUYEN: And as we prepare for this handover, how well are Iraqis prepared for this, especially the police force there in Iraq?
SENOR: Well, I think Iraqis are prepared to assume the governmental responsibilities, day to day operational government responsibilities inside this country. They demonstrated it all over the country, the municipal level, the provincial level, the national level. But we've also set all along, on the security side, that there will be a significant terror threat here after June 30. And the Iraqi security forces will not be in a position to handle that on their own. Some of them have performed heroically and professionally and they will continue to do so. But, they will still need support, they'll still need help from us, they want it, they made that clear us to, their leaders have made that clear to us, so we'll continue to be here after June 30 to help stabilize the situation. It's in nobody's interest, certainly not America's interest to pull our troops out of here and let Iraq destabilize.
NGUYEN: Brigadier General Kimmitt, I'm going to give you the last question, here. Donald Rumsfeld, of course, made that surprise visit, there. How is that affecting troops? What kind of a reaction are you seeing?
KIMMITT: Oh, it was overwhelmingly positive. The troops have a great affection for the secretary of defense. He has a way of talking to the troops that most officers don't have. They love to see him over here. It was great to see him over here, he had some pretty inspiring words, and I know he left feeling pretty good about the troops, and the troops left feeling good about him.
NGUYEN: All right, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt and coalition spokesman Dan Senor, we appreciate your time today.
SENOR: Good to be with you.
KIMMITTT: Thank you.
NGUYEN: And you want to stay tuned, there's much more to come right here on CNN.
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