Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Saturday

Colin Powell Meets With Palestinian Prime Minister; John Kerry Holds Slight Lead in New Poll

Aired May 15, 2004 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: It's 2:00 on the east coast 11:00 a.m. in the west. I'm Betty Nguyen at CNN's global headquarters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Around my neck, a very tough one and they pulled me across the hall like that, a long distance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: More cries of injustice from prisoners of prisoners from Abu Ghraib. We'll hear another alleged victim story.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Suzanne Malveaux at the White House where the Bush administration is dealing with the fall-out from the Iraq prison abuse scandal. I'll have that coming up next.

NGUYEN: A decision that changed America forever. We look back 50 years to Brown Vs. the board of education. But first these headlines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Here are the late e developments. Calling the abusive incidents in Iraq the exception rather than the rule, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt said the mistreatment is over. There are reports interrogation procedures are being made less challenging for Iraqi prisoners. For example, sleep deprivation is now ruled out.

Israeli gun ships in Gaza hit three Palestinian targets, but no serious injuries were reported. Several bystanders were hurt. Israel said the targets are key location for terrorist activity with all three described as bomb factory's. Meantime some Israeli troops withdrew from a Palestinian refugee camp in southern Gaza.

Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, angerly denounced the founding of Israel, 56 years ago today. He called on Palestinians to terrorize their enemies. Israel was founded on this date in 1948. Millions of Palestinians want their own country in Gaza and the West Bank.

We begin now in Colorado. A Colorado state patrol says a steel girder fell from an overpass at state Route 470 into morning traffic. It crushed one car which was traveling on Interstate 70. Three people are reported dead. The accident happened in Golden, Colorado, 16 miles west of Denver. The Route 470 overpass has been under construction. This mishap blocked all eastbound traffic on to the expressway.

George Bush and John Kerry laid out conflicting views in Iraq during a Republican and Democratic radio addresses. Mr. Bush said the country should keep up the fight to save Iraq, while serving justice in the prisoner abuse cases.

More now from CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.

Hi Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Well hello, Betty.

It's Armed Forces Day and President Bush earlier today using that day to essentially recognize fallen police, but the president also talking about the fallen U.S. soldiers in the light of the Iraq prison abuse scandal and the beheading of an American civilian just this past week. The Bush administration is trying to deal with the political fall-out of all of this. President Bush using his weekly radio address to make the case that it is worth it for Americans to be in Iraq.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's only one way to deal with terror, we must confront ten my and stay on the offensive until these killers are defeated, and this is precisely what our armed forces and the forces of our coalition are doing.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: The prison abuse scandal has called into question the behavior of at least some of the U.S. forces in Iraq. Those seven soldiers that are being charged by the military for the prison abuse scandal. There are many Democrats, however as well as out front Mr. Bush's opponents, Senator John Kerry, that are suggesting that this goes up much higher in the chain of command.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have a duty to guarantee that when mistakes are made, those responsible are held accountable whether they are at the bottom of the chain of command or at the top.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And, Betty, the Bush administration is now dealing with some new poll numbers. The lowest yet of Mr. Bush's presidency in less than 50 percent of the job approval rating for the president, also a national poll now showing that 51 percent of voters say they would vote for Kerry as opposed to 46 percent for Bush.

NGUYEN: Suzanne, in the polls I understand even when Nader is figured into that, Ralph Nader, Kerry that is, is still on top?

MALVEAUX: Well that's right. I mean it diminishes somewhat that lead, but, yes, they are pretty much neck and neck at this point. Bush aides say they believe they can turn the numbers around. They point specifically to the June 30 transfer of power back to the Iraqi people. They hope by putting an international face on this whole move it will take some of the pressure off the administration. They believe that it is not too late to change the numbers around. But again, Bush aides also acknowledging they can't afford to have another week like this one -- Betty.

NGUYEN: CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.

A Swedish man now in U.S. visiting family talked exclusively with CNN's Jason Bellini saying he was arrested in Baghdad by U.S. forces ending up in Abu Ghraib Prison.

He did not want to be identified so we'll call him Mr. Sele (ph). While, his account cannot be independently confirmed, he speaks with great emotion about what he says he saw and experienced firsthand.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What happened cannot be said or described. The worst of things took place. It was very difficult. I still recall the voices at night of Iraqi women during the time of Saddam that happened. But under the American forces, it was unexpected and it hurts. No human should accept what happened. We didn't believe what would happen. These people do not represent America. These are only a few Americans looking down on Iraqis.

JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What happened to you inside the prison?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Lets see. At the beginning I was in a situation my hands were tied behind my back like this in front after table and they were interrogating me and they kept saying you're a liar, you are not Swedish. I told him I am Swedish, and he said OK, so he put my feet right on my neck. I had a hood over my head so didn't know who was interrogating me. After they untie my hands, they asked me to take my clothes off. So I took my clothes off. They pulled my by the hair, like this, and pushed me to the floor. They got me up and pushed me against the wall. Then I was thrown on the floor again. And they kept doing this again and again every five minutes. They were all Americans, some were in civilian clothes, others in military clothes. But there were more civilians than military. And the civilians were the ones who were giving orders to the soldier. They put a leash around my neck, a very tough one and they pulled me across the hall like that, a long distance.

BELLINI: After all you said you went through at Abu Ghraib prison. Why would you come to the United States just a few months after your release?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Because I promised the prisoners that I have to go to the United States and bring this to the attention of Americans. And I tell the U.S. administration and the U.S. Congress we don't deserve all this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: With the help of a law firm he is preparing to formally file for compensation from the U.S. in accordance with Rumsfeld's statement to Congress. Now, we can't verify his account of what he experienced, however the coalition did confirm he was held in Abu Ghraib on the dates in question. And the Swedish Government confirmed that a man by his name and date of birth was held by the coalition.

We'll take a closer look at the court-martial facing seven soldiers in the prisoner abuse scandal. An attorney who is familiar with the process will talk with us in just a few moments.

Just a month and a half before Iraq is scheduled to get its sovereignty back, violence still plagues the country. In the last 24 hours, five American troops have died, three from hostile fire in attacks near Baghdad, another soldier died in a vehicle accident, a fifth from natural causes. In Mosul in northern Iraq, four Iraqi civilians were killed when insurgents took aim at a group of people who were lined up outside an Iraqi recruitment center. More than a dozen other people were wounded in the attack.

And in southern Iraq, British forces responding to a convoy attack killed more than a dozen insurgents. The insurgents had an ambush, the British convoy using guns and rocket propelled grenades.

In Jordan, a new move to get the Middle East peace process back on track. Secretary of State Colin Powell says he and Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qorei had constructive talks earlier today in Jordan's capitol. Then Powell headed to an economic forum were talked more about the issue.

CNN's senior international correspondent, Walter Rodgers is with us now from Dead Sea, Jordan -- Walter.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Betty, the U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell knew he was going to be playing to a very tough audience here at the World Economic Forum. Most of the thousand or more delegates come from Arab countries. Did he not, however, realize just how angry the Arab officials are for several reasons. Of course, the abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Powell virtually had to apologize for that. And also for what many Arab countries see as the Americans, the Bush administration specifically having essentially mortgaged its foreign policy in the Middle East to Ariel Sharon the Israeli prime minister. So when Secretary Powell arrived he had to begin by explaining, to the Arab officials at this conference the United States will deal with the problem of prisoner abuse and that they will see that justice is done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our heads bow, our hearts ache, over what a small number of them did at that prison. There's no excuse for that. But at the same time, take into account the magnificent work of so many of these youngsters who have left their homes in America to serve in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RODGERS: Many of the delegates, the Arab delegates at this conference some America's moral authority being badly eroded because of recent events in Iraq. Still the secretary of state came here trying to sell and promote democratic reform throughout the Arab world itself. This difficulty, of course, was even friends like Jordan's King Abdullah was not convinced the American blueprint will fit the Arab world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING ABDULLAH, JORDAN: Most Arabs agree on the need for reform. They also agree that for reform to succeed, it must emerge from within our societies, and not from external influence. Eventually there's been a great deal of focus in the West on the issue of Middle East reform. But quite simply, there is no trust in the region for a blueprint of reform that does not address people's concern as they see them. Including a solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Secretary Powell did, indeed, try to redress some of the grievances the Palestinians had. He met with Qorei, the Palestinian prime minister, and assured him the Americans still favor a two-state solution, an independent Palestinian state living at peace with Israel. But he said that the Palestinians have to take advantage of the fact that the Israelis will be pulling out of Gaza, the Palestinians said that would be OK if, indeed, it's part of a much larger road map to peace in the region.

No one seems very happy at this point and Secretary Powell did not get the best of reviews here -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Thank you. CNN's Walter Rodgers in Jordan.

Just ahead, breaking down the legal issues surrounding the prison abuse scandal. We'll examine the upcoming court-martial process for the soldiers accused in those infamous photos.

Also efforts to restart the Mideast peace process. We're live with the latest at Tel Aviv.

And prices at the pump continue their record climb.

Is there any relief in sight?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: More now, on the prisoner abuse scandal, with a closer look at the court-martial. Seven soldiers face military trials. Next week three soldiers will be arraigned on charges stemming from the pictures of alleged abuse. Our guest says the government has the burden of proof in those cases and for more on court-martial process, attorney Jim Klimaski joins us now from Washington. He's a member of the NLG Military Task Force.

Thanks for being here.

JIM KLIMASKI, NLG MILITARY LAW TASK FORCE: Good morning or after.

NGUYEN: Let's talk about court-martial. What is it exactly. Explain it so we can wrap our brains around it.

KLIMASKI: It's a criminal trial of someone in the military service. It's very similar to a criminal trial in the civilian world. There are some differences. But generally there is a burden of proof is the same. And the conviction must be beyond a reasonable doubt.

NGUYEN: Aren't there different levels. I understand specialist Jeremy Sivits is going to have a special court-martial. There three different levels?

KLIMASKI: There's several different levels. There's a summary court-martial and anything below that is not really considered a criminal conviction. Then have you a special court-martial which usually would be equated to a misdemeanor trial. Then have you a general court-martial which is akin to a felony trial.

NGUYEN: When it comes to a court-martial, who hears the case?

KLIMASKI: Well, there's a judge, military judge, he's in uniform and he will wear robes, usually. And the difference between a military trial and a civilian trial is the jury. The jury in the military made up usually of officers, though, if it is an enlisted member who is going to be tried he or she has a right to have some enlisted members on the court panel. It's not 12, it's only usually either five or three. And they don't have to be unanimous.

NGUYEN: Do you expect a key element in all of this will be the burden of proof and, also, you know, who was in command?

The chain of command, where that lies. Where the ramifications lay on who was in charge.

KLIMASKI: Well, that's a big problem because one of the -- seeming defenses here is that the military intelligence officers and the civilian interrogators were the ones who were ordering them to do something. These were military police officers and they were going beyond their function of just guarding prisoners. And they are being ordered to do things that we have seen on the photographs and the videotapes, that are violations of the Geneva Convention. Now, there is a defense that can be raised in following orders. It's a very narrow defense but it can be raised and might be raised in these cases.

NGUYEN: Clearly, the photos are going to be key in all of this. We have the additional photos that Congress saw last week. These photos are going to be really under a lot of scrutiny, because, many of the accused are saying, look, I was posing, I was told to do this.

KLIMASKI: That might even be true. Though, that's still -- we don't know all the information, so that may -- that could be a defense to some degree. And that would go into the issue of I was following orders. That senior officials were telling me I'm supposed to do that. I believe one person has said that they were posed photos to show to other prisoners to get them in line. Be that as it may, these are violations of the law and if it isn't these individual soldiers who are criminally liable, it's definitely true that the military intelligence officers and the civilian contractors should be liable for crimes that are against the Geneva Convention.

NGUYEN: Do you expect prosecutors will be looking to make an example of these seven soldiers accused?

KLIMASKI: I believe they are looking to whitewash the whole matter and blame everything on these seven soldiers. They keep bringing up the issue that six or seven officers have been reprimanded and they've been career ending reprimands. I don't believe that. They may have been reprimanded which is a piece of paper put in their file, but it's not ending their career. We don't know who they are and we don't know what it says or anything else about them. This is really the effort try to put the lid on it by blaming these seven soldiers.

NGUYEN: What kind of defense do you think the attorneys for the accusers are planning to put on in these cases?

KLIMASKI: Well, the first trial is going to be on this Wednesday, the 19th. And I believe Specialist Sivits is pleading guilty, which means he has a pre-trial agreement. They decided what to do with him. He's agreed that that's OK, and the trial will be a guilty plea and probably testify against the others. Some of the other defendants have already said that that's going to be self- serving, and that his testimony is not trustworthy. So I still believe that they are going to be blaming the higher ups in this case as making them -- as telling them they had to do what they were doing.

NGUYEN: Let's talk about the punishment phase of all of this. How does I work in a court-martial?

KLIMASKI: The punishment phase happens right after the conviction. Unlike a civilian criminal trial where there is usually a present report and several weeks or months down the line, sentencing occurs, here in the military the sentencing occurs right after a conviction. Makes it difficult for a defense attorney to -- who is putting on a defense of not guilty to then switch gears, and say this a good person and he shouldn't serve this much time or get a bad conduct discharge and you know even though he may be guilt of the offense. And so it gets to be a little difficult in that thing, in that situation. You also have to prepare for that part of the trial ahead of time. Like in Mr. -- in Specialist Sivits case, on Wednesday, normally you can put on witnesses and sometimes you put on family members and friends. Well, this is occurring in Baghdad.

The military flying his family out there?

Are they going to be able to provide that kind of defense?

NGUYEN: A lot of questions to be answered there. We are out of time. We want to thank you for your time, though, attorney Jim Klimaski. Our Web site is your legal link to the high profile cases making headlines. Log on to cnn.com/law for the latest developments as well as legal opinions and analysis.

Coming up, recharging the Mideast peace process. We're live from Tel Aviv where thousands are hitting the streets trying to send a message to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. And terror lessons in some California high schools have some parents in an uproar, those stories ahead as CNN LIVE SATURDAY continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Turning back now to the Mideast and the split inside Israel over whether to stay or go in Gaza and the West Bank. Israelis gathered in Tel Aviv today in favor of the proposed withdrawal from Palestinian areas. Planner's of the rally hope it increases pressure on Prime Minister Sharon.

John Vause, joins us more on that rally. Hi, John.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Betty.

Well, the rally has been under way now for an hour or so. Thousands and thousands of Israelis have gathered here in Rabin Square. Organizers had been hoping for 100,000 people or more. A massive show of support they want to Sharon's disengagement plan from Gaza. This comes against a backdrop of the increased violence in the Gaza Strip in the last. Thirteen, Israeli soldiers dead, 31 Palestinians killed, more than 300 wounded. All the more reason people here say Israel should withdraw completely from the Gaza Strip, dismantle 21 settlements, withdraw seven-and-half thousand Jewish settlers. And recent opinion polls show most Israelis support them. One just out yesterday in a newspaper, showed 71 percent of Israelis support Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister and his disengagement plan. But that disengagement plan suffered a major setback two weeks ago when members of the Israeli prime minister own Lucid Party voted, no. So, organizers here tonight are hoping this show of support will give Ariel Sharon the kind of backing he needs to push that disengagement plan through the Israeli Parliament in the coming weeks -- Betty.

NGUYEN: All right. John Vause in Tel Aviv. Thank you.

Still ahead, commemorating a landmark decision in our nation's school system.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dan Lothian, in Topeka, Kansas. Officials are gearing up for the 50th anniversary of Brown vs. board of education. I'll have that story coming up next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: And he broke the color barrier at a segregated high school in Little Rock. We'll talk live to one of the Little Rock Nine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 15, 2004 - 14:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: It's 2:00 on the east coast 11:00 a.m. in the west. I'm Betty Nguyen at CNN's global headquarters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Around my neck, a very tough one and they pulled me across the hall like that, a long distance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: More cries of injustice from prisoners of prisoners from Abu Ghraib. We'll hear another alleged victim story.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Suzanne Malveaux at the White House where the Bush administration is dealing with the fall-out from the Iraq prison abuse scandal. I'll have that coming up next.

NGUYEN: A decision that changed America forever. We look back 50 years to Brown Vs. the board of education. But first these headlines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Here are the late e developments. Calling the abusive incidents in Iraq the exception rather than the rule, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt said the mistreatment is over. There are reports interrogation procedures are being made less challenging for Iraqi prisoners. For example, sleep deprivation is now ruled out.

Israeli gun ships in Gaza hit three Palestinian targets, but no serious injuries were reported. Several bystanders were hurt. Israel said the targets are key location for terrorist activity with all three described as bomb factory's. Meantime some Israeli troops withdrew from a Palestinian refugee camp in southern Gaza.

Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, angerly denounced the founding of Israel, 56 years ago today. He called on Palestinians to terrorize their enemies. Israel was founded on this date in 1948. Millions of Palestinians want their own country in Gaza and the West Bank.

We begin now in Colorado. A Colorado state patrol says a steel girder fell from an overpass at state Route 470 into morning traffic. It crushed one car which was traveling on Interstate 70. Three people are reported dead. The accident happened in Golden, Colorado, 16 miles west of Denver. The Route 470 overpass has been under construction. This mishap blocked all eastbound traffic on to the expressway.

George Bush and John Kerry laid out conflicting views in Iraq during a Republican and Democratic radio addresses. Mr. Bush said the country should keep up the fight to save Iraq, while serving justice in the prisoner abuse cases.

More now from CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.

Hi Suzanne.

MALVEAUX: Well hello, Betty.

It's Armed Forces Day and President Bush earlier today using that day to essentially recognize fallen police, but the president also talking about the fallen U.S. soldiers in the light of the Iraq prison abuse scandal and the beheading of an American civilian just this past week. The Bush administration is trying to deal with the political fall-out of all of this. President Bush using his weekly radio address to make the case that it is worth it for Americans to be in Iraq.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's only one way to deal with terror, we must confront ten my and stay on the offensive until these killers are defeated, and this is precisely what our armed forces and the forces of our coalition are doing.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: The prison abuse scandal has called into question the behavior of at least some of the U.S. forces in Iraq. Those seven soldiers that are being charged by the military for the prison abuse scandal. There are many Democrats, however as well as out front Mr. Bush's opponents, Senator John Kerry, that are suggesting that this goes up much higher in the chain of command.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have a duty to guarantee that when mistakes are made, those responsible are held accountable whether they are at the bottom of the chain of command or at the top.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And, Betty, the Bush administration is now dealing with some new poll numbers. The lowest yet of Mr. Bush's presidency in less than 50 percent of the job approval rating for the president, also a national poll now showing that 51 percent of voters say they would vote for Kerry as opposed to 46 percent for Bush.

NGUYEN: Suzanne, in the polls I understand even when Nader is figured into that, Ralph Nader, Kerry that is, is still on top?

MALVEAUX: Well that's right. I mean it diminishes somewhat that lead, but, yes, they are pretty much neck and neck at this point. Bush aides say they believe they can turn the numbers around. They point specifically to the June 30 transfer of power back to the Iraqi people. They hope by putting an international face on this whole move it will take some of the pressure off the administration. They believe that it is not too late to change the numbers around. But again, Bush aides also acknowledging they can't afford to have another week like this one -- Betty.

NGUYEN: CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.

A Swedish man now in U.S. visiting family talked exclusively with CNN's Jason Bellini saying he was arrested in Baghdad by U.S. forces ending up in Abu Ghraib Prison.

He did not want to be identified so we'll call him Mr. Sele (ph). While, his account cannot be independently confirmed, he speaks with great emotion about what he says he saw and experienced firsthand.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What happened cannot be said or described. The worst of things took place. It was very difficult. I still recall the voices at night of Iraqi women during the time of Saddam that happened. But under the American forces, it was unexpected and it hurts. No human should accept what happened. We didn't believe what would happen. These people do not represent America. These are only a few Americans looking down on Iraqis.

JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What happened to you inside the prison?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Lets see. At the beginning I was in a situation my hands were tied behind my back like this in front after table and they were interrogating me and they kept saying you're a liar, you are not Swedish. I told him I am Swedish, and he said OK, so he put my feet right on my neck. I had a hood over my head so didn't know who was interrogating me. After they untie my hands, they asked me to take my clothes off. So I took my clothes off. They pulled my by the hair, like this, and pushed me to the floor. They got me up and pushed me against the wall. Then I was thrown on the floor again. And they kept doing this again and again every five minutes. They were all Americans, some were in civilian clothes, others in military clothes. But there were more civilians than military. And the civilians were the ones who were giving orders to the soldier. They put a leash around my neck, a very tough one and they pulled me across the hall like that, a long distance.

BELLINI: After all you said you went through at Abu Ghraib prison. Why would you come to the United States just a few months after your release?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Because I promised the prisoners that I have to go to the United States and bring this to the attention of Americans. And I tell the U.S. administration and the U.S. Congress we don't deserve all this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: With the help of a law firm he is preparing to formally file for compensation from the U.S. in accordance with Rumsfeld's statement to Congress. Now, we can't verify his account of what he experienced, however the coalition did confirm he was held in Abu Ghraib on the dates in question. And the Swedish Government confirmed that a man by his name and date of birth was held by the coalition.

We'll take a closer look at the court-martial facing seven soldiers in the prisoner abuse scandal. An attorney who is familiar with the process will talk with us in just a few moments.

Just a month and a half before Iraq is scheduled to get its sovereignty back, violence still plagues the country. In the last 24 hours, five American troops have died, three from hostile fire in attacks near Baghdad, another soldier died in a vehicle accident, a fifth from natural causes. In Mosul in northern Iraq, four Iraqi civilians were killed when insurgents took aim at a group of people who were lined up outside an Iraqi recruitment center. More than a dozen other people were wounded in the attack.

And in southern Iraq, British forces responding to a convoy attack killed more than a dozen insurgents. The insurgents had an ambush, the British convoy using guns and rocket propelled grenades.

In Jordan, a new move to get the Middle East peace process back on track. Secretary of State Colin Powell says he and Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qorei had constructive talks earlier today in Jordan's capitol. Then Powell headed to an economic forum were talked more about the issue.

CNN's senior international correspondent, Walter Rodgers is with us now from Dead Sea, Jordan -- Walter.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Betty, the U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell knew he was going to be playing to a very tough audience here at the World Economic Forum. Most of the thousand or more delegates come from Arab countries. Did he not, however, realize just how angry the Arab officials are for several reasons. Of course, the abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Powell virtually had to apologize for that. And also for what many Arab countries see as the Americans, the Bush administration specifically having essentially mortgaged its foreign policy in the Middle East to Ariel Sharon the Israeli prime minister. So when Secretary Powell arrived he had to begin by explaining, to the Arab officials at this conference the United States will deal with the problem of prisoner abuse and that they will see that justice is done.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our heads bow, our hearts ache, over what a small number of them did at that prison. There's no excuse for that. But at the same time, take into account the magnificent work of so many of these youngsters who have left their homes in America to serve in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RODGERS: Many of the delegates, the Arab delegates at this conference some America's moral authority being badly eroded because of recent events in Iraq. Still the secretary of state came here trying to sell and promote democratic reform throughout the Arab world itself. This difficulty, of course, was even friends like Jordan's King Abdullah was not convinced the American blueprint will fit the Arab world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING ABDULLAH, JORDAN: Most Arabs agree on the need for reform. They also agree that for reform to succeed, it must emerge from within our societies, and not from external influence. Eventually there's been a great deal of focus in the West on the issue of Middle East reform. But quite simply, there is no trust in the region for a blueprint of reform that does not address people's concern as they see them. Including a solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Secretary Powell did, indeed, try to redress some of the grievances the Palestinians had. He met with Qorei, the Palestinian prime minister, and assured him the Americans still favor a two-state solution, an independent Palestinian state living at peace with Israel. But he said that the Palestinians have to take advantage of the fact that the Israelis will be pulling out of Gaza, the Palestinians said that would be OK if, indeed, it's part of a much larger road map to peace in the region.

No one seems very happy at this point and Secretary Powell did not get the best of reviews here -- Betty.

NGUYEN: Thank you. CNN's Walter Rodgers in Jordan.

Just ahead, breaking down the legal issues surrounding the prison abuse scandal. We'll examine the upcoming court-martial process for the soldiers accused in those infamous photos.

Also efforts to restart the Mideast peace process. We're live with the latest at Tel Aviv.

And prices at the pump continue their record climb.

Is there any relief in sight?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: More now, on the prisoner abuse scandal, with a closer look at the court-martial. Seven soldiers face military trials. Next week three soldiers will be arraigned on charges stemming from the pictures of alleged abuse. Our guest says the government has the burden of proof in those cases and for more on court-martial process, attorney Jim Klimaski joins us now from Washington. He's a member of the NLG Military Task Force.

Thanks for being here.

JIM KLIMASKI, NLG MILITARY LAW TASK FORCE: Good morning or after.

NGUYEN: Let's talk about court-martial. What is it exactly. Explain it so we can wrap our brains around it.

KLIMASKI: It's a criminal trial of someone in the military service. It's very similar to a criminal trial in the civilian world. There are some differences. But generally there is a burden of proof is the same. And the conviction must be beyond a reasonable doubt.

NGUYEN: Aren't there different levels. I understand specialist Jeremy Sivits is going to have a special court-martial. There three different levels?

KLIMASKI: There's several different levels. There's a summary court-martial and anything below that is not really considered a criminal conviction. Then have you a special court-martial which usually would be equated to a misdemeanor trial. Then have you a general court-martial which is akin to a felony trial.

NGUYEN: When it comes to a court-martial, who hears the case?

KLIMASKI: Well, there's a judge, military judge, he's in uniform and he will wear robes, usually. And the difference between a military trial and a civilian trial is the jury. The jury in the military made up usually of officers, though, if it is an enlisted member who is going to be tried he or she has a right to have some enlisted members on the court panel. It's not 12, it's only usually either five or three. And they don't have to be unanimous.

NGUYEN: Do you expect a key element in all of this will be the burden of proof and, also, you know, who was in command?

The chain of command, where that lies. Where the ramifications lay on who was in charge.

KLIMASKI: Well, that's a big problem because one of the -- seeming defenses here is that the military intelligence officers and the civilian interrogators were the ones who were ordering them to do something. These were military police officers and they were going beyond their function of just guarding prisoners. And they are being ordered to do things that we have seen on the photographs and the videotapes, that are violations of the Geneva Convention. Now, there is a defense that can be raised in following orders. It's a very narrow defense but it can be raised and might be raised in these cases.

NGUYEN: Clearly, the photos are going to be key in all of this. We have the additional photos that Congress saw last week. These photos are going to be really under a lot of scrutiny, because, many of the accused are saying, look, I was posing, I was told to do this.

KLIMASKI: That might even be true. Though, that's still -- we don't know all the information, so that may -- that could be a defense to some degree. And that would go into the issue of I was following orders. That senior officials were telling me I'm supposed to do that. I believe one person has said that they were posed photos to show to other prisoners to get them in line. Be that as it may, these are violations of the law and if it isn't these individual soldiers who are criminally liable, it's definitely true that the military intelligence officers and the civilian contractors should be liable for crimes that are against the Geneva Convention.

NGUYEN: Do you expect prosecutors will be looking to make an example of these seven soldiers accused?

KLIMASKI: I believe they are looking to whitewash the whole matter and blame everything on these seven soldiers. They keep bringing up the issue that six or seven officers have been reprimanded and they've been career ending reprimands. I don't believe that. They may have been reprimanded which is a piece of paper put in their file, but it's not ending their career. We don't know who they are and we don't know what it says or anything else about them. This is really the effort try to put the lid on it by blaming these seven soldiers.

NGUYEN: What kind of defense do you think the attorneys for the accusers are planning to put on in these cases?

KLIMASKI: Well, the first trial is going to be on this Wednesday, the 19th. And I believe Specialist Sivits is pleading guilty, which means he has a pre-trial agreement. They decided what to do with him. He's agreed that that's OK, and the trial will be a guilty plea and probably testify against the others. Some of the other defendants have already said that that's going to be self- serving, and that his testimony is not trustworthy. So I still believe that they are going to be blaming the higher ups in this case as making them -- as telling them they had to do what they were doing.

NGUYEN: Let's talk about the punishment phase of all of this. How does I work in a court-martial?

KLIMASKI: The punishment phase happens right after the conviction. Unlike a civilian criminal trial where there is usually a present report and several weeks or months down the line, sentencing occurs, here in the military the sentencing occurs right after a conviction. Makes it difficult for a defense attorney to -- who is putting on a defense of not guilty to then switch gears, and say this a good person and he shouldn't serve this much time or get a bad conduct discharge and you know even though he may be guilt of the offense. And so it gets to be a little difficult in that thing, in that situation. You also have to prepare for that part of the trial ahead of time. Like in Mr. -- in Specialist Sivits case, on Wednesday, normally you can put on witnesses and sometimes you put on family members and friends. Well, this is occurring in Baghdad.

The military flying his family out there?

Are they going to be able to provide that kind of defense?

NGUYEN: A lot of questions to be answered there. We are out of time. We want to thank you for your time, though, attorney Jim Klimaski. Our Web site is your legal link to the high profile cases making headlines. Log on to cnn.com/law for the latest developments as well as legal opinions and analysis.

Coming up, recharging the Mideast peace process. We're live from Tel Aviv where thousands are hitting the streets trying to send a message to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. And terror lessons in some California high schools have some parents in an uproar, those stories ahead as CNN LIVE SATURDAY continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Turning back now to the Mideast and the split inside Israel over whether to stay or go in Gaza and the West Bank. Israelis gathered in Tel Aviv today in favor of the proposed withdrawal from Palestinian areas. Planner's of the rally hope it increases pressure on Prime Minister Sharon.

John Vause, joins us more on that rally. Hi, John.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Betty.

Well, the rally has been under way now for an hour or so. Thousands and thousands of Israelis have gathered here in Rabin Square. Organizers had been hoping for 100,000 people or more. A massive show of support they want to Sharon's disengagement plan from Gaza. This comes against a backdrop of the increased violence in the Gaza Strip in the last. Thirteen, Israeli soldiers dead, 31 Palestinians killed, more than 300 wounded. All the more reason people here say Israel should withdraw completely from the Gaza Strip, dismantle 21 settlements, withdraw seven-and-half thousand Jewish settlers. And recent opinion polls show most Israelis support them. One just out yesterday in a newspaper, showed 71 percent of Israelis support Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister and his disengagement plan. But that disengagement plan suffered a major setback two weeks ago when members of the Israeli prime minister own Lucid Party voted, no. So, organizers here tonight are hoping this show of support will give Ariel Sharon the kind of backing he needs to push that disengagement plan through the Israeli Parliament in the coming weeks -- Betty.

NGUYEN: All right. John Vause in Tel Aviv. Thank you.

Still ahead, commemorating a landmark decision in our nation's school system.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dan Lothian, in Topeka, Kansas. Officials are gearing up for the 50th anniversary of Brown vs. board of education. I'll have that story coming up next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: And he broke the color barrier at a segregated high school in Little Rock. We'll talk live to one of the Little Rock Nine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com