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CNN Live Saturday

Interview with Terrence Roberts; Brother/Sister Team Starts Cell Phone Charity For Soldiers In Iraq

Aired May 15, 2004 - 14:40   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SATURDAY: The top stories.
President Bush salutes U.S. troops in Iraq in an Armed Forces Day radio address. The president promises to stay the course in the war. He says U.S. forces continue making strides and he added soldiers who mistreated Iraqi detainees will be brought to justice.

He's attending the World Economic Forum but Secretary of State Colin Powell discussed the prisoner mistreatment issue. He told the gathering in Jordan that the abuse shocked American and is inconsistent with U.S. values. Powell, said the U.S. Government will deal with the matter. Calling it American democracy in action.

And it's a first for Africa, South Africa will host the world cup soccer final in 2010. The first African nation to do so. Crowds in Johannesburg cheered the announcement, which was made on live TV from Switzerland. South Africa hosted last year's Cricket World Cup.

President Bush travels to Topeka, Kansas, and Monday where he will help mark the 50th anniversary of the Supreme Court decision that desegregated public schools. The ruling heralded major changes in America life. Dan Lothian is live in Topeka looking at the legacy of brown verses the board of education.

Dan.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well that is right Betty. Right now just to give you a little bit of a scene setter here as officials are gearing up for the 50th anniversary which will take place on Monday, helicopters flying above as secret service agents, police officers getting everything secured here. As you mentioned President Bush will be attending. I am standing right in front of Monroe Elementary School, what it used to be a segregated school, a black school, one of four black schools here in Topeka, Kansas. It is now a museum. That museum will be officially open on Monday. This is the school where the young girl, Linda Brown, attended. Walking past a white school, which was much closer to her home.

Her father, of course, did not think that was just. So then he joined other plaintiffs in the case, eventually four cases, rather five cases that went on to the Supreme Court. Which as you mentioned did integrate public schools. Once again, the big event taking place on Monday. President Bush and other dignitaries expected to be here.

A little bit about the museum now. The museum really focuses on the entire Civil Rights Movement. Very little mentioned about the specifics of the Brown cases. Officials saying they wanted to layout the chain of events that occurred before 1954 and after 1954, also pointing out that even though it's been 50 years since Brown versus Board of Education, there's still a lot of work to be done.

Betty.

NGUYEN: Dan, in 1954 there were four all-black elementary schools. Why weren't there any all-black high schools?

LOTHIAN: Well that's the interesting thing about it. Because when you hear about this case, you really think there were no schools here that were integrated at the time, but only the elementary schools were segregated.

And the reason for that, we're told by historians is because they couldn't segregate high schools because there weren't enough black students in those upper classes to have their own schools so they were in the classrooms with the white students in junior high and high school. But elementary schools, as you mentioned, four of them here in Topeka were segregated.

NGUYEN: All right CNN Dan Lothian in Topeka. Thank you.

The Brown decision started America down a rocky path to desegregation. In 1957 it took federal troops to make sure 9 black students could attend an all-white high school in Little Rock, Arkansas. Terrence Roberts now a professor at Antioch University was one of the Little Rock nine. He joins us now from Los Angeles. Thanks for being here.

TERRENCE ROBERTS, ONE OF THE LITTLE ROCK 9: Well thank you for having me on.

NGUYEN: Well first off, let's look back almost 50 years now; take us back to that day when you entered that high school. What was going through your mind? What were you feeling?

ROBERTS: Well, I don't remember exactly but I was surprised and shocked to find the mob waiting me at the school. I simply walked up from home expecting to actually go to class. But those plans were thwarted immediately because the governor had called out the National Guard to keep us out of school. So my thought was at first how do I get out of this? Is there a safe escape route? That kind of thing. Very practical.

NGUYEN: But as you showed up you kind of figured there's no turning back.

ROBERTS: Oh, right, no turning back ever. That was not even a consideration.

NGUYEN: I imagine things didn't get any easier any time soon once you went to school there.

ROBERTS: No, no, in fact, the opposition was actually well organized. The intent was to either keep us out or once we got in to make it so miserable that we would want to leave. There was a real intense hatred of anything other than white at that point.

NGUYEN: Well give us some insight. What kind of hostility did you encounter?

ROBERTS: Well, anything that you can imagine that one human being might do or say to another. We encountered at that school. We were pushed and shoved and kicked and beaten and scratched and spat on and cursed at. Given all kinds of reasons why we shouldn't be there.

NGUYEN: Did you ever think at one point, you know what, I can't do any more?

ROBERTS: Well, every second. Oh yes, I mean the fear levels were so intense. I didn't want to be there at all once the thing started. But I also knew that I had to be there, so there were these competing thoughts, even though it was painful and even though it was very, very brutal, I knew that we had to do this. It was necessary.

NGUYEN: How different was the segregated high school from the one that you attended in Little Rock?

ROBERTS: Well, the segregated high school was characterized by a lack of resources, by a diminished facility, by an attitude that this school was in all respects inferior to the school provided for whites. Now that's very complex subject of course. It wasn't exactly all of that. That was the picture painted and what I experienced was the notion that I had no choice. I had to go to this school designated for blacks. What I really wanted was to be able to choose to go to my neighborhood school, which happened to be central.

NGUYEN: And once you started school in the high school in Little Rock, did you feel like you were getting a better education?

ROBERTS: Well, actually it wasn't so much about an education at that point; because the year was so chaotic, very little of an educational nature went on. It was mainly survival. But beyond that, what was going on was the entire world could see the injustice of maintaining this very segregated system. And they could see the attitudes and the violence perpetrated on nine black kids simply because they wanted to go to school.

NGUYEN: As you look back in your eyes how important was that time in history when you walked into the school?

ROBERTS: I think now in retrospect looking back it stands out as water shed event. Because post Little Rock, people began to pay attention. Little Rock was one of the early responses to the Brown decision. And that response was basically refusal. We're not going to comply. And so it got everybody's attention and it put school integration on the map in a big way.

NGUYEN: Reporter: It sure did. Today, do you feel like people of all races are getting an equal shot at education?

ROBERTS: Well, absolutely not. In this country there is no such equality of opportunity for education. That's one of the ongoing mythological constructs that we have to deal with. You know, in this country the elite get a superior education without doubt. Others of us have to scramble for what we can get.

NGUYEN: What should be done in your eyes?

ROBERTS: Well, in my eyes certainly that should be changed. There should be equality of opportunity for education for all. But somehow --

NGUYEN: That's not simple, is it?

ROBERTS: It is not simple at all. We seem to lack the commitment to do that.

NGUYEN: Talk to me about the Little Rock School District. Because you are still very much a part of that.

ROBERTS: Well actually I'm currently I think still on the books as the desegregation consultant for Little Rock. Although I haven't been busy the past few years, because in October of 2002, the Little Rock was successful in being released from federal super vision. So in a sense they have no longer any need for my services. At least in a legal way. I think my services are still needed there. But I haven't been called back. I think I have been fired, actually, although I haven't been notified of that.

NGUYEN: Definitely a big part of that school district, no doubt. Quickly, though, what is your biggest piece of advice for students today?

ROBERTS: I think students need to know that education is vital. That it's important, and that they, individual students have to take executive responsibility for their own learning. They can't leave it up to the system because the systems are not designed to offer them what they need to know.

NGUYEN: All right Terrence Roberts. A member of the Little Rock Nine. Thank you so much.

ROBERTS: Thank you.

NGUYEN: This programming note involving the 50th anniversary of historic ruling, CNN presents will have a special program, examining the ruling and the real world impact. Reporter Dan Lothian will have much, much more on 50 years after Brown versus the Board of Education. That starts tomorrow night at 8:00 Eastern.

Well the harsh reality lesson at a California high school as school administrators land in hot water after some students see and hear the brutal murder of Nicholas Berg.

And medical concerns this afternoon for Billy Graham. The evangelist is back in the hospital, we'll tell you why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NGUYEN: American news media wrestled with the decapitation of Nicholas Berg, how much if any of the gruesome details should they show. Most news organizations decided not to show his death. Of course it's been available on the Web. That's where some students in southern California found it and played it in school. Miguel Marquez picks up the story from there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): It is the video and the act that shocks the nation. An American in Iraq beheaded in an at least two San Diego area high schools gory photos, video and audio of the beheading were heard and seen by scores of students. Parents were shocked just to hear about it.

BOB, PARENT: When a child, a teacher e projects this and shows this horrific scene to a child, that's abuse. Put something in their mind. How do you get it out of the mind?

MARQUEZ: A spokeswoman for Grossmont Union High School District says video of the beheading was brought up on the Internet by a student at Elk Habaten (ph) High School. The problem says the school the teacher may have been aware that students were watching the video and allegedly allowed it to continue playing.

RICK ROBERTS, RADIO SHOW: Why did your daughter file the complaint?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was distraught by a video that was in the classroom.

MARQUEZ: That prompted an angry protest by a parent. Not to the school district but to a local radio station.

RICK ROBERTS, TALK RADIO HOST: Most of us in the media have seen the video. I don't want to see ate second time. I don't think the classroom is a proper place do this.

MARQUEZ: As the school district began to look into the complaint investigators say that another teacher at another high school allegedly played the audio recording of Nicholas Berg's last moments and showed a photo of his severed head to four classes of 30 students each.

SUPT. PERRY RYAN, GROSSMONT SCHOOL DISTRICT: We certainly are going to explain to parents that that is not acceptable. That it is not the policy of the district.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: CNN has tried to contact the teachers and the teachers union seeking their side of the story. The union will only say it is in discussions with the school district about the matter. A spokeswoman for the school district says that the district strives to keep as open an academic environment as possible. She also says an investigation is under way, statements from the students and teachers will be taken and the school board may discuss the matter when it meets on May 20.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Los Angeles.

NGUYEN: Elsewhere across America, 85-year-old Billy Graham is in a North Carolina hospital. As doctors say the evangelist may have suffered a hairline fracture in his pelvis. A Web site for Graham's organization says the religious leader well at his western North Carolina home Thursday night.

Record producer Phil Spector was arrested by his police at his California home yesterday. Spector is already awaiting trial on a murder charge. Police say Spector was in a scuffle with his chauffeur. Actress Lana Clarkson was found shot at Specter's California mansion back in February of 2003.

Also in California, a painful milestone at the gas pumps. The cost of a gallon of premium gas hit $4 yesterday. That's a fill-up at a full service pump and full service regular was a bit less. Just $3.99 a gallon. That is a little bit less. Self-serve at that Fullerton station was still under $3 a gallon.

Was it war of choice or necessity? Democratic presidential frontrunner John Kerry speaks out on the war in Iraq and other issues. We've got the latest campaign trail news.

And a labor of love from two U.S. kids, they were helping soldiers fighting abroad. Stay tuned for their incredible story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: President Bush is taking some time away from the campaign trail. A couple of hours ago he paid tribute to police officers who lost their lives in the line of duty. Mr. Bush spoke at the peace officers memorial in the nation's capitol. Yesterday Senator John Kerry laid a wreath at the memorial and collected the endorsement of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers. The group endorsed Mr. Bush four years ago.

One day after sitting down with police officers in Washington, Kerry is focusing now on the men and women in the U.S. military. The Senator is praising the nation's armed forces but in the aftermath of Iraqi prisoner scandal the presumptive Democratic nominee says the U.S. military must face up to its mistakes.

Well the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, it's one of those issues attracting attention on the campaign trail. And since the scandal came to life, President Bush's poll numbers have taken a dip. With me now from Washington CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times." Thanks for being with us.

RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES:" Hi. Thanks for having me.

NGUYEN: Well first lets talk about Rumsfeld he made the surprise trip to Iraq where he called himself a survivor. Is that true, is he going to keep his job? BROWNSTEIN: Well he is certainly is a survivor. He's been a very effective bureaucratic operator for three decades in Washington. He will keep his job as long as the president feels in his interest. No one is irreplaceable. No subordinate ever cannot be replaced. But President Bush tends not to give in under pressure. If he's going to remove Rumsfeld it's going to be on his own terms. The more there is this clamor from Democrats and critics. The tendency of the White House is to view getting rid of Rumsfeld in those circumstances as giving more fuel rather than defusing the attacks and I think they will resist it unless it becomes absolutely necessary. That presumably will be because of future revelations.

NGUYEN: Ron there is some talk that the under Secretary Stephen Cambone should resign. Is he being made an escape goat here?

BROWNSTEIN: I don't know if it is going to go as high as Cambone. I do think they with all we are hearing from Republican Senators, I think they are going to face a lot of questioning if the prosecutions and the entire focus remains on these very low level actual military guards and MPs and so forth. Clearly there are a lot of Republicans as well as Democrats asking doesn't culpability extend up the chain somewhere. Again, if they try to hold it simply to those on the front line there's going to be a lot of questions on Capitol Hill.

NGUYEN: Let's move now to the $25 billion in war spending. Congress says, all right, we may give you the money but we're not going to write you a blank check.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, you know, many people think the turning point in the Bush presidency when his astronomic post 9/11 numbers began to come down seriously was last September when he first put out the $87 billion request on Iraq. And, again, this is going to be a big debate. There really are two issues at play on Capitol Hill. One is how much specificity will there be on how the money is used. Obviously that is a more sensitive issue after the revelations.

In the Bob Woodward book that they used some of the post 9/11 money to help plan for Iraq. The even bigger question may be whether the administration is trying to low ball the real cost. No one, not even the administration pretends that this $25 billion will cover the full cost of the war for the next year. They are spending about $4.5, $5 billion a month just on the troops, plus the cost of building and staffing this new embassy, plus intelligence. So there's going to be a debate about whether the administration is accurately reflecting the cost or trying to keep that undercover until after the election.

NGUYEN: And speaking of spending money on troops there is still the issue of the troops not getting the right equipment, talking about body armor and armored Humvees.

BROWNSTEIN: I think that is right. And that is why I mean certainly with all the trouble that John Kerry has received over not voting for $87 billion in the height of the Democratic primary when he was most worried about Howard Dean. I think there are going to be very few Democrats who are going to resist the $25 billion, which is being sold accurately as money for the troops. But the, as I said, the question is going to be is it, in fact, enough. Does it give an accurate picture of what it costs for us to maintain our presence there?

NGUYEN: You mentioned John Kerry. Lets stay with that for a moment. Because he is still looking for his advice presidential candidate who is in the running?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, you know the list is tending to grow longer rather than shorter as we go on.

NGUYEN: It is.

BROWNSTEIN: No one really knows. Obviously there's a lot of speculation among Democrats. Interesting that John Kerry said this week that he was not going to announce it until right before the Democratic convention. He said that in a television interview. Earlier a lot of Democrats speculated it might be announced as soon as May. The early favorites were folks who had primarily domestic policy expertise. Senator John Edwards, and Dick Gephart of Missouri who ran against him. Tom Dilsack the governor of Iowa.

Lately with Iraq, dominating the news and having the potential to be really the focal point of the race all the way through there's been more discussion of people who might be able to help him on a foreign policy front, particularly former General Wesley Clarke and to some extend Bob Graham, the Senator and former chairman of the intelligence committee from Florida.

So that is sort of moving in that direction. I don't think anybody really knows. There is a certain amount of logic to picking someone who would reinforce your foreign policy and national security credentials. At a time when it increasingly appears that crossing that bar, establishing credibility as commander in chief could be the most important factor in this election.

NGUYEN: Ron we have to go. We appreciate your time. Ron Brownstein, with the "Los Angeles Times." Thank you.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you.

NGUYEN: There's much more on the politics of choosing a vice- presidential running mate on the CNN Web site. Look at the top contender and then what each brings to the ticket. That's at CNN.com/veepstakes.

A special hour-long edition of reliable sources airs tomorrow. Howard Kirk analyses the fear over the possibility of releasing more images of prison abuse. And what can be gained or lost? That's at 11:00 a.m. Eastern.

Selling out for U.S. soldiers abroad. Straight ahead details on a kid campaign to help U.S. soldiers reach out to their families.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NGUYEN: Many soldiers serving in Iraq have not seen family members in more than a year. A phone call home can be a source of comfort but some troops are forced to travel hours just to talk to their families for just a few minutes. The program cell phones for soldiers hope to make it a lot easier for troops. From Boston the program creators. Thirteen-year-old Brittany Bergquist and her brother 12 year old Robby Bergquist. They both join us. Thank you for being with us.

ROBBY BERGQUIST, CELL PHONE FOR SOLDIERS: Thank you.

BRITTANY BERGQUIST, CELL PHONE FOR SOLDIERS: Thank you for having us.

NGUYEN: Well first of all, Robby, let's talk to you. In a world of video games and instant messaging, why in the world did you want to get into this?

R. BERGQUIST: Well when we first heard about the cell phone bill for Sergeant Fletcher, we immediately were so sad because he is fighting for our country and it is just so sad. Because you know he could be killed and we couldn't find out for many, many months until he finally was told on TV and not found on the phone.

NGUYEN: And his cell phone bill was absolutely outrageous trying to call home. Brittany, let's talk to you about this. How did you get started? Where do you start as a 13-year-old and a 12-year-old in an organization trying to help troops abroad?

B. BERGQUIST: Well, at first we started by collecting money from our classmates and everybody around school. And when we brought the money to Sassis (ph) Savings Bank they gave us $500 because they thought that our idea was so great. That really got us off the ground. And once we put our story into the "Patriot Ledger," our town newspaper, we got calls from different news stations wanting to do our story. It really got everything off the ground and we got a lot of donations then.

NGUYEN: We're taking a look at your Web site right now. What a cute picture of the both of you. This program is under way right now. You have not delivered those cell phones just yet. How much are you hoping to raise. How do you plan on raising that money?

B. BERGQUIST: Well, we're hoping to use the cell phones that we get as donations for the soldiers that are near large cities or around towers and for soldiers who are way from large cities or out in the mountains and everything, we're going to try and buy enough satellite phones for them to use to call home. And to get service to them there's a satellite that's over the Indian Ocean, and the people who created that are going to try and help us to get in contact with the soldiers in Afghanistan and in Iraq.

NGUYEN: Boy, you guys have some serious connections. Robby, let's talk to you about this, because you're hoping that folks not only donate money but also their own cell phones, right? R. BERGQUIST: Right. You can donate to any either on our Web site or to one of the companies that are helping us is Standard Communications. And they are collecting as many cell phones, as people want to give.

NGUYEN: And Brittany quickly when do you plan to deliver these phones?

B. BERGQUIST: We are planning on sending over the first bunch of cell phones and prepaid phones I think on July 4. And we are hoping to just give the first cell phone to a solder that is at one of the celebrations that we go to. And it will be the first time that we send over one of the cell phones.

NGUYEN: Oh that sounds very appropriate. What a great thing you both are doing. I'm very proud of you. Brittany and Bobby Bergquist thank you very much.

There's much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. At the top of the hour, "NEXT@CNN." At 4:00, "CNN LIVE SATURDAY," and in "Dollar Signs", how to save money when interest rates move higher as expected in the next few weeks. Experts answer your calls and emails. At 5:00 "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," profiling Howard Stern and Alanis Morissette.

But first, Daniel Sieberg with a preview of "NEXT@CNN."

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN ANCHOR: This week, we're bringing you the best of science and technology news from our "NEXT@CNN" mansion. Well, actually it's the Playboy Mansion and I'm in Los Angeles at E3, the annual videogame extraveganza. And tonight is actually a coming out party for a new Playboy videogame as well as all the details and news coming out of E3. Plus, the latest in science and technology news of the week, but first, the latest headlines from the CNN news room.

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Aired May 15, 2004 - 14:40   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SATURDAY: The top stories.
President Bush salutes U.S. troops in Iraq in an Armed Forces Day radio address. The president promises to stay the course in the war. He says U.S. forces continue making strides and he added soldiers who mistreated Iraqi detainees will be brought to justice.

He's attending the World Economic Forum but Secretary of State Colin Powell discussed the prisoner mistreatment issue. He told the gathering in Jordan that the abuse shocked American and is inconsistent with U.S. values. Powell, said the U.S. Government will deal with the matter. Calling it American democracy in action.

And it's a first for Africa, South Africa will host the world cup soccer final in 2010. The first African nation to do so. Crowds in Johannesburg cheered the announcement, which was made on live TV from Switzerland. South Africa hosted last year's Cricket World Cup.

President Bush travels to Topeka, Kansas, and Monday where he will help mark the 50th anniversary of the Supreme Court decision that desegregated public schools. The ruling heralded major changes in America life. Dan Lothian is live in Topeka looking at the legacy of brown verses the board of education.

Dan.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well that is right Betty. Right now just to give you a little bit of a scene setter here as officials are gearing up for the 50th anniversary which will take place on Monday, helicopters flying above as secret service agents, police officers getting everything secured here. As you mentioned President Bush will be attending. I am standing right in front of Monroe Elementary School, what it used to be a segregated school, a black school, one of four black schools here in Topeka, Kansas. It is now a museum. That museum will be officially open on Monday. This is the school where the young girl, Linda Brown, attended. Walking past a white school, which was much closer to her home.

Her father, of course, did not think that was just. So then he joined other plaintiffs in the case, eventually four cases, rather five cases that went on to the Supreme Court. Which as you mentioned did integrate public schools. Once again, the big event taking place on Monday. President Bush and other dignitaries expected to be here.

A little bit about the museum now. The museum really focuses on the entire Civil Rights Movement. Very little mentioned about the specifics of the Brown cases. Officials saying they wanted to layout the chain of events that occurred before 1954 and after 1954, also pointing out that even though it's been 50 years since Brown versus Board of Education, there's still a lot of work to be done.

Betty.

NGUYEN: Dan, in 1954 there were four all-black elementary schools. Why weren't there any all-black high schools?

LOTHIAN: Well that's the interesting thing about it. Because when you hear about this case, you really think there were no schools here that were integrated at the time, but only the elementary schools were segregated.

And the reason for that, we're told by historians is because they couldn't segregate high schools because there weren't enough black students in those upper classes to have their own schools so they were in the classrooms with the white students in junior high and high school. But elementary schools, as you mentioned, four of them here in Topeka were segregated.

NGUYEN: All right CNN Dan Lothian in Topeka. Thank you.

The Brown decision started America down a rocky path to desegregation. In 1957 it took federal troops to make sure 9 black students could attend an all-white high school in Little Rock, Arkansas. Terrence Roberts now a professor at Antioch University was one of the Little Rock nine. He joins us now from Los Angeles. Thanks for being here.

TERRENCE ROBERTS, ONE OF THE LITTLE ROCK 9: Well thank you for having me on.

NGUYEN: Well first off, let's look back almost 50 years now; take us back to that day when you entered that high school. What was going through your mind? What were you feeling?

ROBERTS: Well, I don't remember exactly but I was surprised and shocked to find the mob waiting me at the school. I simply walked up from home expecting to actually go to class. But those plans were thwarted immediately because the governor had called out the National Guard to keep us out of school. So my thought was at first how do I get out of this? Is there a safe escape route? That kind of thing. Very practical.

NGUYEN: But as you showed up you kind of figured there's no turning back.

ROBERTS: Oh, right, no turning back ever. That was not even a consideration.

NGUYEN: I imagine things didn't get any easier any time soon once you went to school there.

ROBERTS: No, no, in fact, the opposition was actually well organized. The intent was to either keep us out or once we got in to make it so miserable that we would want to leave. There was a real intense hatred of anything other than white at that point.

NGUYEN: Well give us some insight. What kind of hostility did you encounter?

ROBERTS: Well, anything that you can imagine that one human being might do or say to another. We encountered at that school. We were pushed and shoved and kicked and beaten and scratched and spat on and cursed at. Given all kinds of reasons why we shouldn't be there.

NGUYEN: Did you ever think at one point, you know what, I can't do any more?

ROBERTS: Well, every second. Oh yes, I mean the fear levels were so intense. I didn't want to be there at all once the thing started. But I also knew that I had to be there, so there were these competing thoughts, even though it was painful and even though it was very, very brutal, I knew that we had to do this. It was necessary.

NGUYEN: How different was the segregated high school from the one that you attended in Little Rock?

ROBERTS: Well, the segregated high school was characterized by a lack of resources, by a diminished facility, by an attitude that this school was in all respects inferior to the school provided for whites. Now that's very complex subject of course. It wasn't exactly all of that. That was the picture painted and what I experienced was the notion that I had no choice. I had to go to this school designated for blacks. What I really wanted was to be able to choose to go to my neighborhood school, which happened to be central.

NGUYEN: And once you started school in the high school in Little Rock, did you feel like you were getting a better education?

ROBERTS: Well, actually it wasn't so much about an education at that point; because the year was so chaotic, very little of an educational nature went on. It was mainly survival. But beyond that, what was going on was the entire world could see the injustice of maintaining this very segregated system. And they could see the attitudes and the violence perpetrated on nine black kids simply because they wanted to go to school.

NGUYEN: As you look back in your eyes how important was that time in history when you walked into the school?

ROBERTS: I think now in retrospect looking back it stands out as water shed event. Because post Little Rock, people began to pay attention. Little Rock was one of the early responses to the Brown decision. And that response was basically refusal. We're not going to comply. And so it got everybody's attention and it put school integration on the map in a big way.

NGUYEN: Reporter: It sure did. Today, do you feel like people of all races are getting an equal shot at education?

ROBERTS: Well, absolutely not. In this country there is no such equality of opportunity for education. That's one of the ongoing mythological constructs that we have to deal with. You know, in this country the elite get a superior education without doubt. Others of us have to scramble for what we can get.

NGUYEN: What should be done in your eyes?

ROBERTS: Well, in my eyes certainly that should be changed. There should be equality of opportunity for education for all. But somehow --

NGUYEN: That's not simple, is it?

ROBERTS: It is not simple at all. We seem to lack the commitment to do that.

NGUYEN: Talk to me about the Little Rock School District. Because you are still very much a part of that.

ROBERTS: Well actually I'm currently I think still on the books as the desegregation consultant for Little Rock. Although I haven't been busy the past few years, because in October of 2002, the Little Rock was successful in being released from federal super vision. So in a sense they have no longer any need for my services. At least in a legal way. I think my services are still needed there. But I haven't been called back. I think I have been fired, actually, although I haven't been notified of that.

NGUYEN: Definitely a big part of that school district, no doubt. Quickly, though, what is your biggest piece of advice for students today?

ROBERTS: I think students need to know that education is vital. That it's important, and that they, individual students have to take executive responsibility for their own learning. They can't leave it up to the system because the systems are not designed to offer them what they need to know.

NGUYEN: All right Terrence Roberts. A member of the Little Rock Nine. Thank you so much.

ROBERTS: Thank you.

NGUYEN: This programming note involving the 50th anniversary of historic ruling, CNN presents will have a special program, examining the ruling and the real world impact. Reporter Dan Lothian will have much, much more on 50 years after Brown versus the Board of Education. That starts tomorrow night at 8:00 Eastern.

Well the harsh reality lesson at a California high school as school administrators land in hot water after some students see and hear the brutal murder of Nicholas Berg.

And medical concerns this afternoon for Billy Graham. The evangelist is back in the hospital, we'll tell you why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NGUYEN: American news media wrestled with the decapitation of Nicholas Berg, how much if any of the gruesome details should they show. Most news organizations decided not to show his death. Of course it's been available on the Web. That's where some students in southern California found it and played it in school. Miguel Marquez picks up the story from there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice over): It is the video and the act that shocks the nation. An American in Iraq beheaded in an at least two San Diego area high schools gory photos, video and audio of the beheading were heard and seen by scores of students. Parents were shocked just to hear about it.

BOB, PARENT: When a child, a teacher e projects this and shows this horrific scene to a child, that's abuse. Put something in their mind. How do you get it out of the mind?

MARQUEZ: A spokeswoman for Grossmont Union High School District says video of the beheading was brought up on the Internet by a student at Elk Habaten (ph) High School. The problem says the school the teacher may have been aware that students were watching the video and allegedly allowed it to continue playing.

RICK ROBERTS, RADIO SHOW: Why did your daughter file the complaint?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was distraught by a video that was in the classroom.

MARQUEZ: That prompted an angry protest by a parent. Not to the school district but to a local radio station.

RICK ROBERTS, TALK RADIO HOST: Most of us in the media have seen the video. I don't want to see ate second time. I don't think the classroom is a proper place do this.

MARQUEZ: As the school district began to look into the complaint investigators say that another teacher at another high school allegedly played the audio recording of Nicholas Berg's last moments and showed a photo of his severed head to four classes of 30 students each.

SUPT. PERRY RYAN, GROSSMONT SCHOOL DISTRICT: We certainly are going to explain to parents that that is not acceptable. That it is not the policy of the district.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: CNN has tried to contact the teachers and the teachers union seeking their side of the story. The union will only say it is in discussions with the school district about the matter. A spokeswoman for the school district says that the district strives to keep as open an academic environment as possible. She also says an investigation is under way, statements from the students and teachers will be taken and the school board may discuss the matter when it meets on May 20.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Los Angeles.

NGUYEN: Elsewhere across America, 85-year-old Billy Graham is in a North Carolina hospital. As doctors say the evangelist may have suffered a hairline fracture in his pelvis. A Web site for Graham's organization says the religious leader well at his western North Carolina home Thursday night.

Record producer Phil Spector was arrested by his police at his California home yesterday. Spector is already awaiting trial on a murder charge. Police say Spector was in a scuffle with his chauffeur. Actress Lana Clarkson was found shot at Specter's California mansion back in February of 2003.

Also in California, a painful milestone at the gas pumps. The cost of a gallon of premium gas hit $4 yesterday. That's a fill-up at a full service pump and full service regular was a bit less. Just $3.99 a gallon. That is a little bit less. Self-serve at that Fullerton station was still under $3 a gallon.

Was it war of choice or necessity? Democratic presidential frontrunner John Kerry speaks out on the war in Iraq and other issues. We've got the latest campaign trail news.

And a labor of love from two U.S. kids, they were helping soldiers fighting abroad. Stay tuned for their incredible story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: President Bush is taking some time away from the campaign trail. A couple of hours ago he paid tribute to police officers who lost their lives in the line of duty. Mr. Bush spoke at the peace officers memorial in the nation's capitol. Yesterday Senator John Kerry laid a wreath at the memorial and collected the endorsement of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers. The group endorsed Mr. Bush four years ago.

One day after sitting down with police officers in Washington, Kerry is focusing now on the men and women in the U.S. military. The Senator is praising the nation's armed forces but in the aftermath of Iraqi prisoner scandal the presumptive Democratic nominee says the U.S. military must face up to its mistakes.

Well the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, it's one of those issues attracting attention on the campaign trail. And since the scandal came to life, President Bush's poll numbers have taken a dip. With me now from Washington CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times." Thanks for being with us.

RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES:" Hi. Thanks for having me.

NGUYEN: Well first lets talk about Rumsfeld he made the surprise trip to Iraq where he called himself a survivor. Is that true, is he going to keep his job? BROWNSTEIN: Well he is certainly is a survivor. He's been a very effective bureaucratic operator for three decades in Washington. He will keep his job as long as the president feels in his interest. No one is irreplaceable. No subordinate ever cannot be replaced. But President Bush tends not to give in under pressure. If he's going to remove Rumsfeld it's going to be on his own terms. The more there is this clamor from Democrats and critics. The tendency of the White House is to view getting rid of Rumsfeld in those circumstances as giving more fuel rather than defusing the attacks and I think they will resist it unless it becomes absolutely necessary. That presumably will be because of future revelations.

NGUYEN: Ron there is some talk that the under Secretary Stephen Cambone should resign. Is he being made an escape goat here?

BROWNSTEIN: I don't know if it is going to go as high as Cambone. I do think they with all we are hearing from Republican Senators, I think they are going to face a lot of questioning if the prosecutions and the entire focus remains on these very low level actual military guards and MPs and so forth. Clearly there are a lot of Republicans as well as Democrats asking doesn't culpability extend up the chain somewhere. Again, if they try to hold it simply to those on the front line there's going to be a lot of questions on Capitol Hill.

NGUYEN: Let's move now to the $25 billion in war spending. Congress says, all right, we may give you the money but we're not going to write you a blank check.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, you know, many people think the turning point in the Bush presidency when his astronomic post 9/11 numbers began to come down seriously was last September when he first put out the $87 billion request on Iraq. And, again, this is going to be a big debate. There really are two issues at play on Capitol Hill. One is how much specificity will there be on how the money is used. Obviously that is a more sensitive issue after the revelations.

In the Bob Woodward book that they used some of the post 9/11 money to help plan for Iraq. The even bigger question may be whether the administration is trying to low ball the real cost. No one, not even the administration pretends that this $25 billion will cover the full cost of the war for the next year. They are spending about $4.5, $5 billion a month just on the troops, plus the cost of building and staffing this new embassy, plus intelligence. So there's going to be a debate about whether the administration is accurately reflecting the cost or trying to keep that undercover until after the election.

NGUYEN: And speaking of spending money on troops there is still the issue of the troops not getting the right equipment, talking about body armor and armored Humvees.

BROWNSTEIN: I think that is right. And that is why I mean certainly with all the trouble that John Kerry has received over not voting for $87 billion in the height of the Democratic primary when he was most worried about Howard Dean. I think there are going to be very few Democrats who are going to resist the $25 billion, which is being sold accurately as money for the troops. But the, as I said, the question is going to be is it, in fact, enough. Does it give an accurate picture of what it costs for us to maintain our presence there?

NGUYEN: You mentioned John Kerry. Lets stay with that for a moment. Because he is still looking for his advice presidential candidate who is in the running?

BROWNSTEIN: Well, you know the list is tending to grow longer rather than shorter as we go on.

NGUYEN: It is.

BROWNSTEIN: No one really knows. Obviously there's a lot of speculation among Democrats. Interesting that John Kerry said this week that he was not going to announce it until right before the Democratic convention. He said that in a television interview. Earlier a lot of Democrats speculated it might be announced as soon as May. The early favorites were folks who had primarily domestic policy expertise. Senator John Edwards, and Dick Gephart of Missouri who ran against him. Tom Dilsack the governor of Iowa.

Lately with Iraq, dominating the news and having the potential to be really the focal point of the race all the way through there's been more discussion of people who might be able to help him on a foreign policy front, particularly former General Wesley Clarke and to some extend Bob Graham, the Senator and former chairman of the intelligence committee from Florida.

So that is sort of moving in that direction. I don't think anybody really knows. There is a certain amount of logic to picking someone who would reinforce your foreign policy and national security credentials. At a time when it increasingly appears that crossing that bar, establishing credibility as commander in chief could be the most important factor in this election.

NGUYEN: Ron we have to go. We appreciate your time. Ron Brownstein, with the "Los Angeles Times." Thank you.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you.

NGUYEN: There's much more on the politics of choosing a vice- presidential running mate on the CNN Web site. Look at the top contender and then what each brings to the ticket. That's at CNN.com/veepstakes.

A special hour-long edition of reliable sources airs tomorrow. Howard Kirk analyses the fear over the possibility of releasing more images of prison abuse. And what can be gained or lost? That's at 11:00 a.m. Eastern.

Selling out for U.S. soldiers abroad. Straight ahead details on a kid campaign to help U.S. soldiers reach out to their families.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) NGUYEN: Many soldiers serving in Iraq have not seen family members in more than a year. A phone call home can be a source of comfort but some troops are forced to travel hours just to talk to their families for just a few minutes. The program cell phones for soldiers hope to make it a lot easier for troops. From Boston the program creators. Thirteen-year-old Brittany Bergquist and her brother 12 year old Robby Bergquist. They both join us. Thank you for being with us.

ROBBY BERGQUIST, CELL PHONE FOR SOLDIERS: Thank you.

BRITTANY BERGQUIST, CELL PHONE FOR SOLDIERS: Thank you for having us.

NGUYEN: Well first of all, Robby, let's talk to you. In a world of video games and instant messaging, why in the world did you want to get into this?

R. BERGQUIST: Well when we first heard about the cell phone bill for Sergeant Fletcher, we immediately were so sad because he is fighting for our country and it is just so sad. Because you know he could be killed and we couldn't find out for many, many months until he finally was told on TV and not found on the phone.

NGUYEN: And his cell phone bill was absolutely outrageous trying to call home. Brittany, let's talk to you about this. How did you get started? Where do you start as a 13-year-old and a 12-year-old in an organization trying to help troops abroad?

B. BERGQUIST: Well, at first we started by collecting money from our classmates and everybody around school. And when we brought the money to Sassis (ph) Savings Bank they gave us $500 because they thought that our idea was so great. That really got us off the ground. And once we put our story into the "Patriot Ledger," our town newspaper, we got calls from different news stations wanting to do our story. It really got everything off the ground and we got a lot of donations then.

NGUYEN: We're taking a look at your Web site right now. What a cute picture of the both of you. This program is under way right now. You have not delivered those cell phones just yet. How much are you hoping to raise. How do you plan on raising that money?

B. BERGQUIST: Well, we're hoping to use the cell phones that we get as donations for the soldiers that are near large cities or around towers and for soldiers who are way from large cities or out in the mountains and everything, we're going to try and buy enough satellite phones for them to use to call home. And to get service to them there's a satellite that's over the Indian Ocean, and the people who created that are going to try and help us to get in contact with the soldiers in Afghanistan and in Iraq.

NGUYEN: Boy, you guys have some serious connections. Robby, let's talk to you about this, because you're hoping that folks not only donate money but also their own cell phones, right? R. BERGQUIST: Right. You can donate to any either on our Web site or to one of the companies that are helping us is Standard Communications. And they are collecting as many cell phones, as people want to give.

NGUYEN: And Brittany quickly when do you plan to deliver these phones?

B. BERGQUIST: We are planning on sending over the first bunch of cell phones and prepaid phones I think on July 4. And we are hoping to just give the first cell phone to a solder that is at one of the celebrations that we go to. And it will be the first time that we send over one of the cell phones.

NGUYEN: Oh that sounds very appropriate. What a great thing you both are doing. I'm very proud of you. Brittany and Bobby Bergquist thank you very much.

There's much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. At the top of the hour, "NEXT@CNN." At 4:00, "CNN LIVE SATURDAY," and in "Dollar Signs", how to save money when interest rates move higher as expected in the next few weeks. Experts answer your calls and emails. At 5:00 "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," profiling Howard Stern and Alanis Morissette.

But first, Daniel Sieberg with a preview of "NEXT@CNN."

DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN ANCHOR: This week, we're bringing you the best of science and technology news from our "NEXT@CNN" mansion. Well, actually it's the Playboy Mansion and I'm in Los Angeles at E3, the annual videogame extraveganza. And tonight is actually a coming out party for a new Playboy videogame as well as all the details and news coming out of E3. Plus, the latest in science and technology news of the week, but first, the latest headlines from the CNN news room.

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