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U.S. Troops Uncover Bomb Factory In Iraq; Saddam Hussein In Court

Aired July 03, 2004 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It is 2:00 p.m. in our nation's capital, 10:00 p.m. in Baghdad. Good afternoon, I'm Fredricka Whitfield at CNN's global headquarters. Ahead this hour, U.S. troops make a dramatic discovery that could slow insurgent forces in Iraq. We're live with details
And Saddam on trial: We'll recap the former leader's court appearance during arraignment, and trace his legal road to justice.

Those stories in a moment, but first, a look at the top stories stories.

Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry is playing a tune he hopes will be picked up by voters in rural America. He's halfway through a three-day 546 mile bus tour through Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa. The Senator is pushing plans, he says, will help farmers.

President Bush used his weekly radio address to encourage Americans to enjoy the Fourth of July holiday. Mr. Bush called America a shining example to the world. He also asked for support for his administration's tax cuts, energy bill and for the war against terrorism.

Another person shot at a Kansas meat packing plant died today. Police still don't know why Elijah Brown, a worker at the ConAgra plant in Kansas City open fire. Six people were killed, including Brown who killed himself, two others were wounded.

It's been another violent day in Iraq. A bomb at an oil storage facility killed 6 members of the Iraqi National Guard. An American marine died fighting in the al Anbar province. U.S. troops uncovered bomb making operations, stored weapons and also detained nearly 50 suspects. Baghdad bureau chief Jane Arraf is live in Iraq with more on the details -- Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Fredricka, it's being called a major development. One site led them to eight others, military officials say, and in the process they've detained more than 30 people, including the suspected financier and a suspected bomb maker in a cell in Baghdad.

They found, they say, four car bombs in various states of development as well as 50 pounds of plastic explosives. They say they have cracked a ring that has been responsible for the deaths of possibly two American soldiers, as well as many others. Fredricka, we're here at the Baghdad International Airport at one of the army bases where some of the troops who have been here for 15 months are preparing to pull out. With us is Colonel Brad May, who is commander of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment from Fort Poke, Louisiana. Colonel May, thanks so much for joining us.

COLONEL BRAD MAY, 2ND ARMORED CALVARY REGIMENT: Thank you.

ARRAF: Now, you have been at the center of history. You were supposed to go home when you and your men were sent out to fight the Mehdi militia. Is it over there?

MAY: Well, I tell you, I think it is. We were sent in the throes of our redeployment south. We were sent to quell the uprising. In a matter of little over six weeks, the militia was defeated.

ARRAF: Is it truly defeated or just really disbursed?

MAY: Well, one thing about this kind of war, a lot of the individuals that could be considered militia may very well have blended back into the society. So as you look at exactly who would remain, who could come back at some point in time, that is always something that you have to continue to assess.

But the fact of the matter is, I'm extremely proud of our troopers and the work they did to defeat the militia.

ARRAF: And we were with you out there for quite a large part of that fighting, and it was really pretty intense. How has that affected the troops do you think?

MAY: Well, I think in large measure, what it does is it reinforces the training that they've been through. And I'm extremely proud of the way they performed.

And the fact of the matter is, there were a lot of militia men that lost their lives down there. And the fact of the matter is, we didn't lose or we lost very few soldiers. And so I think that could be attributed to the skills, the war fighting professionalism, the prowess, as well as the training of our great soldiers.

ARRAF: Thank you so much.

MAY: Thank you.

ARRAF: That was Colonel Brad May, commander of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment. They're about to pull out after 15 months in the country -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Jane Arraf in Baghdad, thanks very much.

He was once a powerful ruler with armies at his command. This week, Iraq's former president Saddam Hussein emerged as a defendant. He tried to reclaim his lost strength in a combative courtroom session, questioning the court's authority. We're going to show you portions of that dramatic court appearance throughout the hour. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FRM. PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the republic of Iraq. Saddam Hussein, the president of the republic of Iraq. 1937.

JUDGE (through translator): Profession, former president of the republic of Iraq.

HUSSEIN: No, present, current. It's the will of the people.

JUDGE: The head of the Ba'ath party that is dissolved, defunct. Commander in chief of the army. Make -- between brackets make former.

Residence is Iraq.

Your mother's name?

HUSSEIN: Subha.

JUDGE: He stated the following. After positively I.D.ing the defendant, he was present before us.

HUSSEIN: May I have a clarification?

JUDGE: Go ahead, please.

HUSSEIN: You also have to introduce yourself to me.

JUDGE: Mr. Saddam, I am the executive judge of the Central Court of Iraq.

HUSSEIN: So that I have to know, you are investigative judge of the central court of Iraq? What resolution, what law formed this court? Oh, the coalition forces?

So you are an Iraqi that -- you are representing the occupying forces?

JUDGE: No, I'm Iraqi representing Iraq. But you are -- I was appointed by a presidential decree under the former regime.

HUSSEIN: So -- so you are reiterating that every Iraqi should respect the Iraqi law. So the law that was instituted before represents the will of the people, right?

JUDGE: Yes, god willing.

HUSSEIN: So -- so you should not work under the jurisdiction of the coalition forces. This is important point.

JUDGE: I am a judge. And the former regime I respect the judges. And I'm resuming and assuming, continuing my work. You as any other citizen, you have to answer to any accusation or charge. That's true.

This is an arraignment, a charge, if it can be proven, then you will be convicted. If not, then everything is fine.

The judicial due process is to bring back rights. If there's evidence you'll be convicted. If there's no evidence, you will not. Until now, you're accused before the judicial system.

So according to that, so please, let me...

HUSSEIN: I'm not complicating matters. Are you a judge? You are a judge? And judges, they value the law, and they rule by law, right, right? right is a relative issue.

For us, right is our heritage in the Koran. Right?

I -- I'm not talking about Saddam Hussein, whether he was a citizen or in other capacities. I'm not holding fast to my position. But to respect the will of the people that decided -- decided to choose Saddam Hussein as the leader of the revolution.

They -- therefore, when I say president of the Republic of Iraq, it's not a formality or holding fast to a position, but rather to reiterate to the Iraqi people that I respect its will. This is one.

No. 2, you summoned me to levy charges.

No, I -- you call it crimes. Then -- sorry.

The charges -- the investigative judge, if there is evidence, then I'll defer it to court of jurisdiction. Let me understand something. Who is the defendant -- any defendant when he comes to a court before that, there should be investigation. This is not a court. This is an investigation. This is an investigation now.

Let me clarify this point. Then I hope that you remember you are a judge empowered by the people. It doesn't really matter whether you convict me or not, that's not what's important. What's important is that you remember that you're a judge.

JUDGE: Then don't mention anything occupying forces. This is not good. Then I judge by in the name of people. Then that's good. Then judge in the name of people. That's -- this is the Iraqi way.

Mr. Saddam, this is an investigation process. And investigative process. Before, before.

HUSSEIN: From the legal standpoint, you were notified that I have lawyers, right? Am I not supposed to meet with the lawyers before I come before you?

JUDGE: If you give me just ten minutes, let's finish the formalities, and I'll come to that. Then if you wait, then you will see that you have rights that are guaranteed.

HUSSEIN: OK, go ahead.

JUDGE: According to the law, Mr. Saddam, the investigative judge has to give the defendant -- give him the charges that are levied against him. And then reading the rights of all the charges, according to the law, article 123, 124, and 125. The first step is...

HUSSEIN: Are these articles -- were they not signed by Saddam Hussein?

JUDGE: Yes, this is -- this is the law that was -- that was in '73.

HUSSEIN: So this then -- then Saddam Hussein was representing the leadership and signed that law? So now you are -- you're using the law that Saddam signed against Saddam? Saddam was the people. Please.

The constitution and mechanism -- I'm not a lawyer, but I understand. I'm originally a man of law.

Can you -- is it allowed to call a president elected by the people and -- and charge him according to a law that was enacted under the people. There is some contradiction.

JUDGE: No, the judicial process -- let me answer this clarification. First, I'm not -- I'm not deliberating a case against you, I'm investigating. I'm investigating with you, interrogating you.

Second, the president is a profession, is a position, is a deputy of the society. That's true. And originally inherently, he's a citizen, and every citizen, according to the law and the constitution, if this person violates, then a law has to come before the law. And that law you know more than I do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Defiant, the former Iraqi leader is now mounting a legal team to defend against war crimes against him. He'll examine -- we'll examine the obstacles the process might be facing coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: We've been showing you portions of Saddam Hussein's defiant day in court this week. For victims of Saddam's alleged atrocities during his regime, it was the first step toward justice. But how will the prosecution of Saddam and his former top lieutenants affect Iraq as a whole?

With insight, CNN analyst Ken Pollack joins us from Washington, he's also with the Saban Center at the Brookings Institution. Good to see, Ken.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Thanks, Fredricka. How are you?

WHITFIELD: I'm doing pretty good. Well, what are Iraqis and other members of the Arab community to think? Who is it in charge? Is it Saddam who was challenging the judge in court? Is it the interim government? Or is it the U.S.? POLLACK: Well, I'm afraid Fredricka, that the first day's exchanges between Saddam and that judge may have created the impression that no one's particularly in charge. There were debates over procedure, there were some very elementary mistakes which international lawyers have pointed out: The fact he did not have a lawyer with him rent was a clear mistake. The fact that Saddam clearly not understand the situation that he is in, he continues to lecture, continues to try various legalistic arguments to argue his way out of his position and the fact that the judge has basically been allowing him to do that, it created a sense of a little bit of what is going on here, who is doing what, who's in control?

WHITFIELD: So it certainly set the tone that perhaps this country is not ready for this step in the judicial process.

POLLACK: It's I think a very fair analogy, or case to make based on this. That you know, this is an extraordinarily important trial for Iraqis. And Iraq's judicial system may not be ready yet to deal with this kind of a trial. So important a trial at the beginning of what will be a brand new system for Iraqis. They have never had this kind of a fair, free, representational system where rule of law really does prevail.

And because this is such an important trial, it suggests maybe they want to take things more slowly, really get things right the next time they take another bite at this apple.

WHITFIELD: So, if it is pretty apparent to viewers, particularly those in the Arab community that the system is not ready yet, that's it's not working, then why should anybody there, Iraq or anywhere within the Arab peninsula, be so certain that a trial, if it were to take place next year is this right thing to do at the right time and the right place in which to handle it?

POLLACK: Obviously a year is a long time, and a lot can happen in a year, a lot can get organized in a year. I think for the Iraqis, they want this trial to happen. Saddam Hussein is a critical element of their past. He is the most important element of their past, and all Iraqis want that sense of reconciliation, that sense of closure.

Obviously, Saddam does have a few of his supporters, but even those out there I think to some extent want this trial, because they're hoping it will vindicate Saddam and vindicate their position in some sense.

So within Iraq, there's a clear sense this trial has to happen. I think that most Iraqis are hoping when it does happen, that the judicial system is ready to handle it properly.

For the rest of the Arab world, of course, Saddam Hussein is mostly a symbol. And I think they're much less concerned with the technicalities and legalities, although they're glad to jump on any inconsistencies, any illegalities that they see. And it is a way of discrediting the process.

But it's important to remember that many Arabs outside of Iraq have different views of this process than Iraqis do. It's something that we've seen consistently over the past two years. Iraqis can't stand Saddam, by and large, and they want to come to grips with their past. For many Arabs outside of Iraq, Saddam was a symbol of defiance against the United States. And even though they may not have liked his methods, as a result, they tacitly supported him on many occasions.

WHITFIELD: So whether you like Saddam or not, I wonder if this rough start and this arraignment all kind of sets the tone or maybe even underscores the instability of the interim government?

POLLACK: Yes, again, I think it's a very new government. And I think that they are -- they're move interesting to this process very quickly because they want to demonstrate to the Iraqi people that they are a new government, they are not like the one in the past. They are fully sovereign and they're going to be able to do things that Iraqis want them to do that the previous interim government wasn't.

But I think you're right that, at least what we saw on that first day, suggests maybe they're not quite ready to handle some of the responsibilities that they're trying to take on as a way of showing Iraqis their independence.

WHITFIELD: Ken Pollack, we'll be talking to you again within the hour.

Well, some high profile names are joining the defense effort for Saddam Hussein. But can the former regime later get a fair trial? We'll be exploring that coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Saddam Hussein faces 7 preliminary charges, including the gassing of Kurds back in 1988. The former Iraqi leader has a team of 20 lawyers who face an uphill battle in defending him. But can Saddam get a fair trial from the Iraqi people?

Avery Friedman is a civil rights attorney and law professor. And he joins us from Cleveland, Ohio. Good to see you Avery.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Nice to see you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, as he is beefing up his legal team, yet one new face, person has been added to the list. And this certainly might get a lot of attention in the Arab community. This being the daughter of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, Aisha Moammar el- Gadhafi, and now joins the team. Overall, it's an international legal team represented by an attorney from the states, from Great Britain and many other Arab nations.

Why is this legal team likely to face an uphill battle when it comes do defending Saddam Hussein in Iraq?

FRIEDMAN: Well, what's especially extraordinary about the trial of Saddam Hussein, Fredricka, is that it is unique, jurisprudentially in the history of man. There has never been a trial in which a former leader is being tried by the same nation. Remember, after World War II it was the victors who tried the Third Reich. And with the International Court of Justice trying Milosevic, that is international law.

This is unique, not only because Saddam will be tried in Iraq, but he will be tried using notions and procedures of essentially western law, that is the presumption of innocence, the right to counsel. So, when you put that in place, along with the knowledge that there are no procedures set up right now, this 20-person legal team has an extraordinary task in this defense.

WHITFIELD: So, you touch on two things that deserve a follow-up. One you say it's unique. Is that also synonymous with a mistake. And No. 2, you talked about the right to legal counsel, which has not been afforded to him. While he has a legal team, but they apparently haven't even met with him and were not there during the arraignment.

FRIEDMAN: Well, the difficulty is that since March 8, the transitional law which is going to govern this trial against Saddam Hussein who's been charged with crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide, the procedures have not been set in place.

And so what the transitional law is uncertain on is how does this defense team come in? We all know that at every major step of the legal proceeding here in America, you have a right to legal counsel. The lawyers for Saddam are saying, listen, we're in Libya, we're in Jordan, e in other countries, we need to advise our client. And right now, Iraq does not have a procedure to permit non-Iraqi attorneys to offer defense and protect this particular defendant.

WHITFIELD: Well, that's interesting, you talk about the procedure because apparently the U.S. offered guidance with the interim government on how to set up this judicial system. Yet, at the same time, the judge pulled up the book talking about the rule of law, the law of the land, which was the law of the land signed by Saddam Hussein. So which is it?

FRIEDMAN: Well, it's a little bit of both, as a matter of fact. Iraq, in the transitional governance, is using existing Iraqi law, coupled with the new law that kicked in, as they say, on the 8th of March, 2004. So it's blending Iraqi law with western procedures.

Now, the good news is that under existing, the transitional law, Iraq is using advisers from the United Nations. The American Bar Association here in this country is providing assistance. And so in the process, in the development not only of this trial, but also for all trials in Iraq, there's going to be, and it's in the law in Iraq, international advisers, nonIraqis participating not only as lawyers but also as judges.

WHITFIELD: Now, his attorneys, Saddam's attorneys, are already saying that one of the problems that they have is that it appears as though the panel of judges, or at least those who are going to be in charge of this case, if it eventually goes to trial next year, are all established anti-Saddam people. And so if that's already the case, that he's already facing an uphill battle, not likely to get a fair trial.

FRIEDMAN: I'm not sure how they can say that, because in the new law, there is a requirement that the candidates who will be serving on bench, the judicial officers, must be persons of integrity, must have experience, and so the process of who is going to make judgments in this case, in fact, isn't even finalized.

So, while I appreciate the defense lawyer saying it's all biased against our client, he doesn't really have a chance, there's no way they can know that at this time.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, Avery, we're going to be talking to you again within the hour. And when we do, let's talk a little bit about an international court and if the stage be set in which to do something -- if we'll ever see Saddam in a place like the Hague.

FRIEDMAN: Very good.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, facing the will of a sovereign nation, Saddam Hussein was read the charges against him. We'll hear those specific charges and see his defiant reaction when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired July 3, 2004 - 14:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It is 2:00 p.m. in our nation's capital, 10:00 p.m. in Baghdad. Good afternoon, I'm Fredricka Whitfield at CNN's global headquarters. Ahead this hour, U.S. troops make a dramatic discovery that could slow insurgent forces in Iraq. We're live with details
And Saddam on trial: We'll recap the former leader's court appearance during arraignment, and trace his legal road to justice.

Those stories in a moment, but first, a look at the top stories stories.

Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry is playing a tune he hopes will be picked up by voters in rural America. He's halfway through a three-day 546 mile bus tour through Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa. The Senator is pushing plans, he says, will help farmers.

President Bush used his weekly radio address to encourage Americans to enjoy the Fourth of July holiday. Mr. Bush called America a shining example to the world. He also asked for support for his administration's tax cuts, energy bill and for the war against terrorism.

Another person shot at a Kansas meat packing plant died today. Police still don't know why Elijah Brown, a worker at the ConAgra plant in Kansas City open fire. Six people were killed, including Brown who killed himself, two others were wounded.

It's been another violent day in Iraq. A bomb at an oil storage facility killed 6 members of the Iraqi National Guard. An American marine died fighting in the al Anbar province. U.S. troops uncovered bomb making operations, stored weapons and also detained nearly 50 suspects. Baghdad bureau chief Jane Arraf is live in Iraq with more on the details -- Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Fredricka, it's being called a major development. One site led them to eight others, military officials say, and in the process they've detained more than 30 people, including the suspected financier and a suspected bomb maker in a cell in Baghdad.

They found, they say, four car bombs in various states of development as well as 50 pounds of plastic explosives. They say they have cracked a ring that has been responsible for the deaths of possibly two American soldiers, as well as many others. Fredricka, we're here at the Baghdad International Airport at one of the army bases where some of the troops who have been here for 15 months are preparing to pull out. With us is Colonel Brad May, who is commander of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment from Fort Poke, Louisiana. Colonel May, thanks so much for joining us.

COLONEL BRAD MAY, 2ND ARMORED CALVARY REGIMENT: Thank you.

ARRAF: Now, you have been at the center of history. You were supposed to go home when you and your men were sent out to fight the Mehdi militia. Is it over there?

MAY: Well, I tell you, I think it is. We were sent in the throes of our redeployment south. We were sent to quell the uprising. In a matter of little over six weeks, the militia was defeated.

ARRAF: Is it truly defeated or just really disbursed?

MAY: Well, one thing about this kind of war, a lot of the individuals that could be considered militia may very well have blended back into the society. So as you look at exactly who would remain, who could come back at some point in time, that is always something that you have to continue to assess.

But the fact of the matter is, I'm extremely proud of our troopers and the work they did to defeat the militia.

ARRAF: And we were with you out there for quite a large part of that fighting, and it was really pretty intense. How has that affected the troops do you think?

MAY: Well, I think in large measure, what it does is it reinforces the training that they've been through. And I'm extremely proud of the way they performed.

And the fact of the matter is, there were a lot of militia men that lost their lives down there. And the fact of the matter is, we didn't lose or we lost very few soldiers. And so I think that could be attributed to the skills, the war fighting professionalism, the prowess, as well as the training of our great soldiers.

ARRAF: Thank you so much.

MAY: Thank you.

ARRAF: That was Colonel Brad May, commander of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment. They're about to pull out after 15 months in the country -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Jane Arraf in Baghdad, thanks very much.

He was once a powerful ruler with armies at his command. This week, Iraq's former president Saddam Hussein emerged as a defendant. He tried to reclaim his lost strength in a combative courtroom session, questioning the court's authority. We're going to show you portions of that dramatic court appearance throughout the hour. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FRM. PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the republic of Iraq. Saddam Hussein, the president of the republic of Iraq. 1937.

JUDGE (through translator): Profession, former president of the republic of Iraq.

HUSSEIN: No, present, current. It's the will of the people.

JUDGE: The head of the Ba'ath party that is dissolved, defunct. Commander in chief of the army. Make -- between brackets make former.

Residence is Iraq.

Your mother's name?

HUSSEIN: Subha.

JUDGE: He stated the following. After positively I.D.ing the defendant, he was present before us.

HUSSEIN: May I have a clarification?

JUDGE: Go ahead, please.

HUSSEIN: You also have to introduce yourself to me.

JUDGE: Mr. Saddam, I am the executive judge of the Central Court of Iraq.

HUSSEIN: So that I have to know, you are investigative judge of the central court of Iraq? What resolution, what law formed this court? Oh, the coalition forces?

So you are an Iraqi that -- you are representing the occupying forces?

JUDGE: No, I'm Iraqi representing Iraq. But you are -- I was appointed by a presidential decree under the former regime.

HUSSEIN: So -- so you are reiterating that every Iraqi should respect the Iraqi law. So the law that was instituted before represents the will of the people, right?

JUDGE: Yes, god willing.

HUSSEIN: So -- so you should not work under the jurisdiction of the coalition forces. This is important point.

JUDGE: I am a judge. And the former regime I respect the judges. And I'm resuming and assuming, continuing my work. You as any other citizen, you have to answer to any accusation or charge. That's true.

This is an arraignment, a charge, if it can be proven, then you will be convicted. If not, then everything is fine.

The judicial due process is to bring back rights. If there's evidence you'll be convicted. If there's no evidence, you will not. Until now, you're accused before the judicial system.

So according to that, so please, let me...

HUSSEIN: I'm not complicating matters. Are you a judge? You are a judge? And judges, they value the law, and they rule by law, right, right? right is a relative issue.

For us, right is our heritage in the Koran. Right?

I -- I'm not talking about Saddam Hussein, whether he was a citizen or in other capacities. I'm not holding fast to my position. But to respect the will of the people that decided -- decided to choose Saddam Hussein as the leader of the revolution.

They -- therefore, when I say president of the Republic of Iraq, it's not a formality or holding fast to a position, but rather to reiterate to the Iraqi people that I respect its will. This is one.

No. 2, you summoned me to levy charges.

No, I -- you call it crimes. Then -- sorry.

The charges -- the investigative judge, if there is evidence, then I'll defer it to court of jurisdiction. Let me understand something. Who is the defendant -- any defendant when he comes to a court before that, there should be investigation. This is not a court. This is an investigation. This is an investigation now.

Let me clarify this point. Then I hope that you remember you are a judge empowered by the people. It doesn't really matter whether you convict me or not, that's not what's important. What's important is that you remember that you're a judge.

JUDGE: Then don't mention anything occupying forces. This is not good. Then I judge by in the name of people. Then that's good. Then judge in the name of people. That's -- this is the Iraqi way.

Mr. Saddam, this is an investigation process. And investigative process. Before, before.

HUSSEIN: From the legal standpoint, you were notified that I have lawyers, right? Am I not supposed to meet with the lawyers before I come before you?

JUDGE: If you give me just ten minutes, let's finish the formalities, and I'll come to that. Then if you wait, then you will see that you have rights that are guaranteed.

HUSSEIN: OK, go ahead.

JUDGE: According to the law, Mr. Saddam, the investigative judge has to give the defendant -- give him the charges that are levied against him. And then reading the rights of all the charges, according to the law, article 123, 124, and 125. The first step is...

HUSSEIN: Are these articles -- were they not signed by Saddam Hussein?

JUDGE: Yes, this is -- this is the law that was -- that was in '73.

HUSSEIN: So this then -- then Saddam Hussein was representing the leadership and signed that law? So now you are -- you're using the law that Saddam signed against Saddam? Saddam was the people. Please.

The constitution and mechanism -- I'm not a lawyer, but I understand. I'm originally a man of law.

Can you -- is it allowed to call a president elected by the people and -- and charge him according to a law that was enacted under the people. There is some contradiction.

JUDGE: No, the judicial process -- let me answer this clarification. First, I'm not -- I'm not deliberating a case against you, I'm investigating. I'm investigating with you, interrogating you.

Second, the president is a profession, is a position, is a deputy of the society. That's true. And originally inherently, he's a citizen, and every citizen, according to the law and the constitution, if this person violates, then a law has to come before the law. And that law you know more than I do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Defiant, the former Iraqi leader is now mounting a legal team to defend against war crimes against him. He'll examine -- we'll examine the obstacles the process might be facing coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: We've been showing you portions of Saddam Hussein's defiant day in court this week. For victims of Saddam's alleged atrocities during his regime, it was the first step toward justice. But how will the prosecution of Saddam and his former top lieutenants affect Iraq as a whole?

With insight, CNN analyst Ken Pollack joins us from Washington, he's also with the Saban Center at the Brookings Institution. Good to see, Ken.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Thanks, Fredricka. How are you?

WHITFIELD: I'm doing pretty good. Well, what are Iraqis and other members of the Arab community to think? Who is it in charge? Is it Saddam who was challenging the judge in court? Is it the interim government? Or is it the U.S.? POLLACK: Well, I'm afraid Fredricka, that the first day's exchanges between Saddam and that judge may have created the impression that no one's particularly in charge. There were debates over procedure, there were some very elementary mistakes which international lawyers have pointed out: The fact he did not have a lawyer with him rent was a clear mistake. The fact that Saddam clearly not understand the situation that he is in, he continues to lecture, continues to try various legalistic arguments to argue his way out of his position and the fact that the judge has basically been allowing him to do that, it created a sense of a little bit of what is going on here, who is doing what, who's in control?

WHITFIELD: So it certainly set the tone that perhaps this country is not ready for this step in the judicial process.

POLLACK: It's I think a very fair analogy, or case to make based on this. That you know, this is an extraordinarily important trial for Iraqis. And Iraq's judicial system may not be ready yet to deal with this kind of a trial. So important a trial at the beginning of what will be a brand new system for Iraqis. They have never had this kind of a fair, free, representational system where rule of law really does prevail.

And because this is such an important trial, it suggests maybe they want to take things more slowly, really get things right the next time they take another bite at this apple.

WHITFIELD: So, if it is pretty apparent to viewers, particularly those in the Arab community that the system is not ready yet, that's it's not working, then why should anybody there, Iraq or anywhere within the Arab peninsula, be so certain that a trial, if it were to take place next year is this right thing to do at the right time and the right place in which to handle it?

POLLACK: Obviously a year is a long time, and a lot can happen in a year, a lot can get organized in a year. I think for the Iraqis, they want this trial to happen. Saddam Hussein is a critical element of their past. He is the most important element of their past, and all Iraqis want that sense of reconciliation, that sense of closure.

Obviously, Saddam does have a few of his supporters, but even those out there I think to some extent want this trial, because they're hoping it will vindicate Saddam and vindicate their position in some sense.

So within Iraq, there's a clear sense this trial has to happen. I think that most Iraqis are hoping when it does happen, that the judicial system is ready to handle it properly.

For the rest of the Arab world, of course, Saddam Hussein is mostly a symbol. And I think they're much less concerned with the technicalities and legalities, although they're glad to jump on any inconsistencies, any illegalities that they see. And it is a way of discrediting the process.

But it's important to remember that many Arabs outside of Iraq have different views of this process than Iraqis do. It's something that we've seen consistently over the past two years. Iraqis can't stand Saddam, by and large, and they want to come to grips with their past. For many Arabs outside of Iraq, Saddam was a symbol of defiance against the United States. And even though they may not have liked his methods, as a result, they tacitly supported him on many occasions.

WHITFIELD: So whether you like Saddam or not, I wonder if this rough start and this arraignment all kind of sets the tone or maybe even underscores the instability of the interim government?

POLLACK: Yes, again, I think it's a very new government. And I think that they are -- they're move interesting to this process very quickly because they want to demonstrate to the Iraqi people that they are a new government, they are not like the one in the past. They are fully sovereign and they're going to be able to do things that Iraqis want them to do that the previous interim government wasn't.

But I think you're right that, at least what we saw on that first day, suggests maybe they're not quite ready to handle some of the responsibilities that they're trying to take on as a way of showing Iraqis their independence.

WHITFIELD: Ken Pollack, we'll be talking to you again within the hour.

Well, some high profile names are joining the defense effort for Saddam Hussein. But can the former regime later get a fair trial? We'll be exploring that coming up next.

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WHITFIELD: Saddam Hussein faces 7 preliminary charges, including the gassing of Kurds back in 1988. The former Iraqi leader has a team of 20 lawyers who face an uphill battle in defending him. But can Saddam get a fair trial from the Iraqi people?

Avery Friedman is a civil rights attorney and law professor. And he joins us from Cleveland, Ohio. Good to see you Avery.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Nice to see you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, as he is beefing up his legal team, yet one new face, person has been added to the list. And this certainly might get a lot of attention in the Arab community. This being the daughter of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, Aisha Moammar el- Gadhafi, and now joins the team. Overall, it's an international legal team represented by an attorney from the states, from Great Britain and many other Arab nations.

Why is this legal team likely to face an uphill battle when it comes do defending Saddam Hussein in Iraq?

FRIEDMAN: Well, what's especially extraordinary about the trial of Saddam Hussein, Fredricka, is that it is unique, jurisprudentially in the history of man. There has never been a trial in which a former leader is being tried by the same nation. Remember, after World War II it was the victors who tried the Third Reich. And with the International Court of Justice trying Milosevic, that is international law.

This is unique, not only because Saddam will be tried in Iraq, but he will be tried using notions and procedures of essentially western law, that is the presumption of innocence, the right to counsel. So, when you put that in place, along with the knowledge that there are no procedures set up right now, this 20-person legal team has an extraordinary task in this defense.

WHITFIELD: So, you touch on two things that deserve a follow-up. One you say it's unique. Is that also synonymous with a mistake. And No. 2, you talked about the right to legal counsel, which has not been afforded to him. While he has a legal team, but they apparently haven't even met with him and were not there during the arraignment.

FRIEDMAN: Well, the difficulty is that since March 8, the transitional law which is going to govern this trial against Saddam Hussein who's been charged with crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide, the procedures have not been set in place.

And so what the transitional law is uncertain on is how does this defense team come in? We all know that at every major step of the legal proceeding here in America, you have a right to legal counsel. The lawyers for Saddam are saying, listen, we're in Libya, we're in Jordan, e in other countries, we need to advise our client. And right now, Iraq does not have a procedure to permit non-Iraqi attorneys to offer defense and protect this particular defendant.

WHITFIELD: Well, that's interesting, you talk about the procedure because apparently the U.S. offered guidance with the interim government on how to set up this judicial system. Yet, at the same time, the judge pulled up the book talking about the rule of law, the law of the land, which was the law of the land signed by Saddam Hussein. So which is it?

FRIEDMAN: Well, it's a little bit of both, as a matter of fact. Iraq, in the transitional governance, is using existing Iraqi law, coupled with the new law that kicked in, as they say, on the 8th of March, 2004. So it's blending Iraqi law with western procedures.

Now, the good news is that under existing, the transitional law, Iraq is using advisers from the United Nations. The American Bar Association here in this country is providing assistance. And so in the process, in the development not only of this trial, but also for all trials in Iraq, there's going to be, and it's in the law in Iraq, international advisers, nonIraqis participating not only as lawyers but also as judges.

WHITFIELD: Now, his attorneys, Saddam's attorneys, are already saying that one of the problems that they have is that it appears as though the panel of judges, or at least those who are going to be in charge of this case, if it eventually goes to trial next year, are all established anti-Saddam people. And so if that's already the case, that he's already facing an uphill battle, not likely to get a fair trial.

FRIEDMAN: I'm not sure how they can say that, because in the new law, there is a requirement that the candidates who will be serving on bench, the judicial officers, must be persons of integrity, must have experience, and so the process of who is going to make judgments in this case, in fact, isn't even finalized.

So, while I appreciate the defense lawyer saying it's all biased against our client, he doesn't really have a chance, there's no way they can know that at this time.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, Avery, we're going to be talking to you again within the hour. And when we do, let's talk a little bit about an international court and if the stage be set in which to do something -- if we'll ever see Saddam in a place like the Hague.

FRIEDMAN: Very good.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, facing the will of a sovereign nation, Saddam Hussein was read the charges against him. We'll hear those specific charges and see his defiant reaction when we come right back.

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