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CNN Live Saturday
Joint U.S., Iraqi Force Continues Attack On Samarra, Fallujah; Mt. St. Helens Continues To Show Seismic Activity; Interview with Joseph Cirincione
Aired October 02, 2004 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Now, in the news. A U.S. commander in Iraq says in Samarra has killed 125 insurgents, and led to the capture of 88 more. Major General John Batiste tells CNN the city is now under control of U.S. and Iraqi forces. Samarra had been considered a major rebel stronghold.
Hundreds of anti-war protesters turn out for a march to the White House from Arlington National Cemetery. They carried cardboard coffins. Organizers say the marchers include surviving family members of those killed in the war.
Scientists are predicting more steam eruptions of the Mt. St. Helens volcano in Washington State. The mountain is making rumbling noises. And experts say pressure is building toward further violent activity, possibly soon. A steam eruption yesterday damaged some scientific equipment, but no serious injuries are reported.
We begin this hour in Iraq where U.S. and Iraqi forces have been fighting to retake insurgent strongholds in the center of the country. In Samarra, the U.S. says at least 125 insurgent were killed in today's battles. We get the latest now from CNN's Brent Sadler who is in Baghdad. Brent, how are the U.S. and Iraqi military able to differentiate between the insurgents and the Iraqi civilians?
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: One of the problems in fighting this sort of combat in an area like Samarra, that city, a large number of people mixed, and it is custom and practice for insurgents to melt away, and reform in the middle of street battles. But what we've seen really in terms of the performance of the Iraqi army is, according to U.S. military commanders on the ground, a strong cohesive performance, standing firm, and engaging in some of the battles.
Of course, they had to rely heavily on U.S. forces from the 1st U.S. Army Infantry Division, backed up by tanks and air power helicopters, U.S. helicopters, firing against insurgents as they move from sector to sector and as the forces advance from sector to sector, killing, as we've heard, around 125 insurgents and capturing around 80 others.
Now, this is the latest assessment we have from Samarra by a top military commander there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR GEN. JOHN BATISTE, U.S. ARMY: I'm very confident that the future of Samarra is good. This is great news for the people of Samarra. 200,000 people that have been held captive, hostage, if you will, by just a couple hundred of thugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SADLER: Several days more of mopping up, of operations are expecting Samarra, say military commanders, is to capture and kill other suspected insurgents, still able to operate there.
In other military action, U.S. warplanes have again been striking insurgent, suspected insurgent targets in the city of Fallujah, that's west of Baghdad. Succeeding in Samarra is seen as one step to taking on other arrested areas, the most important of which is Fallujah.
This is really the hard core insurgent stronghold. And made up, according to U.S. intelligence, of militant Islamic fighters, foreign fighters, as well as insurgents loyal to the deposed regime. And this is really the top nut to crack, but it is seen as paramount in the Iraqi interim government strategy of restoring national security ahead of elections at the end of January -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: Brent Sadler in Baghdad, thanks, Brent.
Bread and butter issues replace war and terror on the campaign trail this week. President Bush is spending the day in Ohio where he is touting his tax cuts. CNN's Elaine Quijano joins us from the White House with more. Elaine, is it just a coincidence that this tax cut is being announced less than a month before the presidential election?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Certainly hard to look at anything as if it's a coincidence this far out, Andrea, but the president is talking about tax cuts, also home ownership, and other domestic issues, but at the same time, he is continuing really what amounts to a post-debate rebuttal that began yesterday, when he said that his opponent, Democratic senator John Kerry had a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the war on terrorism.
Now, today, at two stops in Ohio, the two stops that he's had so far, first in Columbus, and then just a short time ago in Mansfield, Ohio, the president again slammed Senator Kerry on foreign policy.
The president has zeroed in on a few of Senator Kerry's statements from Thursday's debate. One of them, you will recall, Senator Kerry discussing his views on how the U.S. should take pre- emptive military action. The senator said he would never cede that right as president, but said that action should pass the global test so people understand the reasons.
Well, this afternoon the president offered his own interpretation of that comment. And said, under his leadership, America's national security decisions would be made in the oval office, not in foreign capitals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Senator Kerry's approach to foreign policy would give foreign governments veto power over our national security decisions. I have a different view. When our country is in danger, it's not the president's job to take an international poll, it's the president's job to defend this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUIJANO: Now the Kerry campaign, as you might expect, has fired back. They say this is another example of the president taking Senator Kerry's comments out of context. They say that the test is one of credibility, of making sure people fully understand the reasons for taking action.
Meantime, the president continues sumping for votes, as I said, in that crucial state. Ohio, 20 electoral votes up for grabs there. The president has one more campaign stop today before returning to Washington tonight -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: And his 27th swing through Ohio. Elaine Quijano at the White House, thanks.
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry will soon be heading back to Washington after a four-day swing through Florida. CNN national correspondent Frank Buckley was with Kerry during a morning stop in Orlando.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Senator John Kerry critical of President Bush during a speech here focusing on domestic policy and economic issues. Senator Kerry saying that President Bush has consistently favored special interests over the interests of middle class Americans.
The speech delivered here at Freedom High School in Orlando. Senator Kerry using the same argument he used to try to frame the foreign policy debate on Thursday, now trying to use that argument to frame the domestic debates taking place October 8 and 13. That argument that President Bush can't fix problems if he won't acknowledge they exist.
SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you ask President Bush, he'd tell you that everything is just fine here at home. He'd tell you, this is the best economy in our lifetime. I mean these are the things they've said. I'm not making this up.
He says that maybe this is the best that we can do. Well, maybe that's true for his friends: Enron, Halliburton, for the big oil industry. But I'll tell you this, that's not true for the type of folks I've been meeting all around America who really build this country.
BUCKLEY: Senator Kerry did not address the comments coming from President Bush that Senator Kerry would seek the approval of the leaders from other countries to use military force. Senator Kerry's aides, however, saying that the senator made it very clear at the debate on Thursday that he would do whatever was necessary to protect the U.S., including musing military force.
Strategists for Senator Kerry adding that President Bush is trying to get what they call a do-over of Thursday's debate, using lines that he forgot to use on Thursday. They added we've moved on, they're stuck in last week. Frank Buckley, CNN, Orlando, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: After putting out a blast of steam and ash, the Mount St. Helens volcano is quieter today, but more violent activity could come soon according to scientists. Let's get the latest now from Donna Tetreault who is near the volcano now. Donna, just how near are you?
DONNA TETREAULT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're about five and a half miles away. And that's what geologists are saying is safe for us at this point. Now, scientists are predicting more sites from Mount St. Helens, but nothing threatening. And it could happen as soon as today, any time today.
The earthquakes inside the volcano are up to 3 in magnitude. And they're occurring several times per minute. This activity is similar to the activity in 1980, which left 57 people dead, and $3 billion in damage, but the big difference is that these earthquakes are shallow, not as deep as in 1980.
Scientists with the U.S. Geological Survey is reassessing the situation now, because of all of the power or pressure that's involved. But still, they believe the volcano is not threatening. Yesterday, the biggest eruption in 18 years forced ash and steam from the volcano. It lasted for about 24 minutes.
All this, this all began earlier in the week, when thousands of earthquakes occurred inside the crater. Rocks the size of cars spilled out of the volcano.
Now, seismic activity did die down for a few hours after the eruption yesterday, but now, it's back up again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM PIERSON, USGS GEOLOGIST: Seismicity is 10 to 15 percent above where it was yesterday, just before the steam bursts came out, and the trend is continuing to go up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TETREAULT: And scientists say that we could even see bigger eruptions than the one that we saw yesterday. And we might even get a glimpse of lava spilling from the volcano -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: Hey Donna, how long do they expect the seismic activity to last?
TETREAULT: You know, I asked that. We just had a press conference, just wrapped up, and they said they're expecting probably days to weeks, but you know, they're still not sure. It's a very precarious situation and they said that they're going to continue to monitor and look into it. but at this point, they're predicting days into weeks.
KOPPEL: OK. Well, I guess we know what you'll be doing for the very near future. Donna Tetreault in Washington State. Thanks for joining us.
Stopping Iran from becoming a nuclear power: John Kerry has tried to make it a major issue in the race for the White House, but is there really anything that Washington can do? I'll talk with an expert in the field next.
Still to come: a violent week in the Middle East, leaves dozens dead in gaza, what prompted this latest flareup. We'll have a live report from Jerusalem.
Plus, find out what's the holdup in the release of a so-called enemy combatant.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: Here's one of the few things that both presidential candidates seemed to agree on during last Thursday's debate: nuclear proliferation is one of the greatest, if not the greatest threat to U.S. and global security. Now, U.N. inspectors are reportedly planning to go to Iran and have a closer look at a military complex, where U.S. suspects Tehran has been conducting secret work on atomic weapons.
Iran denies nuclear activities at the Parchen (ph) Military Complex. And it also denies that it ignored previous requests by the International Atomic Energy Agency to visit the site.
Does Iran have nuclear ambitions? If so, what does that mean for the already volatile Middle East? And what can or should be done to intervene?
Joining me to talk about it, Joseph Cirincione, who is an expert on nuclear proliferation, and also wrote "Deadly Arsenals: Tracking Weapons of Mass Destruction." Nice to see you Joe.
JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, AUTHOR: My pleasure.
KOPPEL: Why should Americans care? Just how just how close is Iran do we think, to having a nuclear weapon?
CIRINCIONE: They could probably within 3 to 5 years, if everything goes well for them. And that's an optimistic assumption, but it's the kind of asumption you have to go on. The danger really isn't that Iran would get a nuclear weapon and attack the United States, or attack Europe with it. No deterence is alive and well. They understand what would happen with it if they tried that.
The danger is what happens to the region, if Iran becomes a nuclear power, joining Israel, which has about 100 nuclear weapons? Saudi Arabia and Egypt, for example, could not stand idly by. They might start their own nuclear programs. Egypt used to have one, Saudi Arabia bankrolled Pakistan's. Turkey might consider a nuclear option. And finally, a new government in Iraq might consider it.
KOPPEL: It could start a domino effect.
CIRINCIONE: You have a nuclear-dominated Middle East with all of these unresolved regional conflicts.
KOPPEL: Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Because there could be some viewers who are watching this, saying, we heard the same thing from the intelligence community leading up to the war in Iraq. Why is this intelligence something that we should believe?
CIRINCIONE: The difference is that we have inspectors on the ground actually going to these facilities. And Iran actually admits almost all of it. The issue here is that Iran is peacefully pursuing a program to enrich uranium for its reactors. They're allowed to do this. The danger is, the very same technologies that can enrich uranium for fuel rods one year, can turn that enriched uranium into bomb material the next. That's the issue.
KOPPEL: Now what are the sticking points that the U.S. has been faced with right now in trying to get sanctions placed against Iran at the United Nations are are the European. What will it take to get the Europeans on board?
CIRINCIONE: Well, the Europeans themselves issued a statement just yesterday, the European leaders, asking the United States to move quickly on this, because we're in a race against time. We're almost at a point of no return, sometime in the next year or two. If Iran doesn't turn back, it will be too late to stop them. They actually advocate something like what Senator Kerry has been talking about, a new approach to Iran. That counts on foreign relations...
KOPPEL: Which means what?
CIRINCIONE: That you actually engage with this regime. You give up the idea that you're going to overthrow this regime, or that somehow the reformists, if they came to power, would give up this program. This is an Iranian national ambition. We have to engage them, deal with them now and give them a deal that they can't refuse.
KOPPEL: So in other words, maybe not pursue sanctions then.
CIRINCIONE: Sanctions have to -- what we need now is for Europe to be tougher and for the United States to be more flexible.
KOPPEL: But what does that mean, to be tougher?
CIRINCIONE: Europe has to be -- Europe doesn't have sanctions on Iran right no, only we do. They have to tell be able to tell Iran, with the Russians by the way and the Chinese, that if you don't shut down this program, we are going to crush you economically. No more nuclear trade, perhaps even a ban on oil investment, oil embargoes, there's a series of ratcheted sanctions you can put in. The U.S. has to be more flexible saying we're willing to come to terms with you. If you do this, we're willing to give you security guarantees, guarantee we're not going to overthrow your country. And by the way, we'll work to try and resolve the regional issues that make you feel insecure.
KOPPEL: In other words, not just the stick, but put some carrots on the table.
CIRINCIONE: Exactly, a balance of force and diplomacy, a selective engagement with the government of Iran.
KOPPEL: Joseph Cirincione of Carnegie, thanks so much for coming in today.
CIRINCIONE: My pleasure, Andrea.
KOPPEL: Giving the American public time to digest the first presidential debate. Now that nearly 48 hours have passed, is there any change in people's perceptions? I'll speak with political analyst hron Brownstein next.
Still to come: they are tickets that could put you behind the dugouts for the Yankees playoff. So, what would do you if you found them in the street? A group of Jersey kids faced that exact dilemma. We'll tell what you they did.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: Bruce Springsteen and R.E.M.'s Michael Styke kicked on the moveoff.org sponsored "Vote for Change" concert tour last night in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It was one of six politically charged concerts playing in battleground states. More than 40 additional ones are planned between now and the election in support of the Kerry- Edwards campaign.
By now, you know most viewers who saw Thursday night's presidential debate thought Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry was a clear winner, yet most think President Bush still makes a better commander in chief. Here to help us sort out the real impact of the president's debates is CNN's political analyst Ron Brownstein.
So explain that, Ron. The polls after the debate showed that Kerry was the winner, but it hasn't swung in his favor in terms of the overall polls.
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LA TIMES": I think what we saw is something that is not unusual in a presidential race, and it may sound kind of odd to say, but the horse race between the two candidates is often the lagging indicator in the race, it's the last thing traditionally to move.
What we've had over the last few months is a situation where despite doubts about the direction of the country and some of President Bush's major choices, particularly the decision to invade Iraq, John Kerry hasn't been able to capitalize, because he faced so many doubts in the electorate about himself, whether he was up to being commander in chief.
Probably the most important thing that happened for Kerry in this debate, was that even though impressions of Bush in the polls didn't deteriorate, they did improve on Kerry. He began to make up some of the ground he's lost since his convention in July. And that potentially puts him in to position to benefit with voters who are ambivalent about the direction that President Bush has set.
KOPPEL: Have we seen anything reflected in the polls that would indicate that the debate changed the debate itself in the campaign?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think we've seen a couple of things. I think the most important thing that happened in the debate was that we move from a referendum primarily on Kerry to a referendum primarily on Bush, at least for the night. In August and September, the focus of this race overwhelmingly has been whether John Kerry is up to being commander in chief. And he really hasn't won that referendum. With all the attacks that he's faced from Republicans.
On the other hand, even while that's going on, we still have the country divided almost exactly in half on whether President Bush is doing a good job, whether it was the right thing to invade Iraq, whether his policies have helped the economy.
And what we saw in the debate was that even though Bush reiterated those criticisms about Kerry, inevitably the focus was more on his record and his performance. And in that environment, Kerry, I think, has a better shot. That's a closer race than it is on this question of personal characteristics so far.
KOPPEL: Looking ahead to Tuesday night's vice presidential debate, some outside analysts have said they believe that this, in fact, could be the most important debate leading up to the election.
BROWNSTEIN: Ooh, I don't know. I think that people vote for the top of the ticket primarily. I think this will be a very entertaining one and interesting debate, because I can't remember one, maybe Dan Quayle and Lloyd Benson where the physical and stylistic contrast between the 2 combatants was more pronounced. I mean, Dick Cheney and John Edwards are about as far apart from the spectrum as people get.
But in the end, I think people do vote on the top of the ticket. And the question for John Kerry, I think, is can he sustain a focus on the elements of President Bush's record that voters aren't easy with.
You saw President Bush today, right back with the argument, talking about this global test. Once again, trying to make Kerry the focus, and whether Kerry should be commander in chief. That, I think that, terrain clearly over the last two months is an advantage the president.
Can Kerry keep the focus, as at least they did during those 09 minutes, on the parts of President Bush's record the voters are ambivalent about. That to me, is the critical question for the next two debates. KOPPEL: OK. Well, looking ahead then Friday's next presidential debate, which will be a town hall format, what do you think either candidate needs to prove in that debate?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think President Bush is in a situation where he simply has to, kind of, lighten up a little bit and smile a little more, show a little more respect for his opponent.
KOPPEL: Why is that important?
BROWNSTEIN: Because I think that what happened in the debate, was that many people reacted, much like Al Gore in the first debate in 2000, they reacted badly to his sort of demeanor. And in this case, like with Gore in 2000, it was a risk, because it ties into an underlying perception.
One, the downs -- the flipside of the resolve that the president gets credit for with voters is that in polls the majority of Americans also have described him as stubborn. And if it came across that he was indignant for at being questioned, at even having his judgments criticized at all, it does reinforce, if people perceive it that way, a Kerry argument that Bush is too stubborn to change courts even when events seemingly demand it.
I think for Kerry, the challenge is to continue to do what he did, which is to restore some of the damage that he suffered in the last two months, primarily own the issue of whether he has a plan for the country.
Extraordinarily low percentages of the voters believe that he has laid out a clear plan fort next four years. He made up some of that ground on foreign policy, obviously he has got to do the same thing on domestic policy. I think the last debate, probably more than this middle debate, town hall debates get a little diffuse.
KOPPEL: YOu got a lot in there, Ron. Thanks so much.
BROWNSTEIN: Thank you.
KOPPEL: Ron Brownstein of the "LA Times."
Just a reminder, you can watch the upcoming debates right here on CNN. Bush and Kerry will face off at a town hall meeting Friday night in St. Louis, Missouri and then meet again on October 13 in Tempe, Arizona. Cheney and Edwards, as we were saying, meet 1 time only, this Tuesday night in Cleveland, Ohio. We'll have it all right here live on CNN.
Held hostage by pork. Find out why a bill to fix your local roads and bridges is a long way from becoming law.
Targeted in Gaza: could two Hamas militants be among the dead? We'll have a live report from Jerusalem next.
Plus caught in legal limbo: The U.S. had planned to release an enemy combatant to Saudi Arabia. Find out why that plan has run into some diplomatic snags.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: Right now in the news, the showdown in Samarra continues, as 5,000 U.S. and Iraqi troops remain dedicated to rooting out insurgents and stabilizing the Sunni Triangle city, ahead of planned elections in January. Amid reports of sporadic battles today, the latest death toll stands at 125.
The Iraqi insurgency also targeted overnight in Fallujah. U.S. military sources say they made a precision strike on yet another confirmed Abu Musab al Zarqawi terrorist strikes. Nine have been reported killed in the air strikes. Iraqi hospital sources say women and children may be among the dead and wounded.
Harsh criticism for the Department of Homeland Security, and it's coming from its own inspector general. A strongly worded report says the department has 12 separate terror watch lists from 9 different government agencies, but fails to consolidate information that might guard against international terrorism. A Homeland Security spokesman responds that the department believes "the premise" of the report is not correct.
President Bush making his 27th visit to the battleground state of Ohio today, and talking taxes as both candidates sprint toward the November 2nd finish line.
Meanwhile day four for Senator John Kerry in Florida, where he took the Bush administration to task for threatening the future of the middle class.
We turn now to the crisis in the Middle East. Israel's retaliation escalates in Gaza. There have been deadly gunfights, tank shellings and air strikes. Israel calls its operation against militant violence "days of Pentanes." CNN's John Vause is live from Jerusalem with details. John what is behind this latest round?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello Andrea. Well it's been a barrage of missiles being fired from the Gaza strip into Israeli towns, which has forced crackdown by the Israeli military, this is the fourth day of violence in the Gaza strip. And within the last few hours an Israeli air strike has claimed the lives of two members of the militant group Hamas. According to witnesses an Israeli missile hit a car driving through the main street of Gaza city.
Hamas sources tell CNN one of the dead Matqu (ph) Moustaha (ph) is a senior Hamas military leader, directly responsible for the launching and the manufacturing of those custom rockets, which are being fired at Israeli towns. Violence has escalated in Gaza since Wednesday when a custom rocket claimed the lives of two children in an Israeli border town of Starot (ph) that is less than a mile from the Gaza border. The death toll today Andrea stands at least ten militants including four militants who were killed after they breached the Gaza security fence, heavily armed with automatic weapons and grenades. Israeli authorities say they were heading for a nearby Kabutz when they were shot dead. Earlier another four militants from Islamic Dehardwood (ph) were killed in Israeli air strike. Israel says they were in fact planning an attack on Israel. Palestinian sources though say those men were, in fact, praying at the time during the missile strike. This is one of the largest military operations that Israel has launched in the Gaza strip in four years of fighting.
It says this is an open-ended operation designed to create a five-mile buffer between the Gaza strip and those border towns. Those custom rockets have a range of about five miles. So far in four days of fighting, more than 40 Palestinians, both civilians and militants, have been killed. The Israeli death toll stands at five, including those two children, who were killed on Wednesday.
Now today at an emergency meeting of his cabinet in his compound in Ramallah, the Palestinian authority president Yasser Arafat called on the world to intervene, to stop what he calls these inhumane crimes being carried out by Israel in Gaza -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: John, you said it's been going on for the last four days. Who started it?
VAUSE: Well it appears to have been started by the direct result, the trigger for all of this was in fact those missiles, which were fired into the border town of Sadat on Wednesday. But this has been bubbling along for quite some time now. In fact, over the last four years, Israel says that more than 4,000 rockets and mortars and grenades have been fired from the Gaza strip into those border towns. They haven't claimed a great deal of lives or casualties up until this point.
But what has been happening over the last few months or so, those custom rockets have been becoming increasingly accurate with a greater range. Originally they were four miles. Now they're up to five miles and there's some speculation that they could soon be up to ten miles so the Israel Prime minister Aerial Sharon has become increasingly desperate, if you like, to try and crack down on these missile launches to stop not just the missiles from being fired but destroy the workshops where they're being made to end this missile threat once and for all.
KOPPEL: Well thanks for that clarification. John Vause joining us from Jerusalem. Thank you John.
A check now of other news around the world. Deadly explosions and shootings in Indiana, two bomb blasts kill at least 23 people and leave 87 others wounded. One explosion hit a train station and the other a nearby market in a northeastern town.
In Pakistan, a funeral procession becomes a violent protest. Hundreds of people set fire to government buildings during a funeral procession today for 30 victims of a mosque bombing. Protesters believe the government is not doing enough to find those responsible for Friday's suicide bombing. And in Iraq, school is back in session for millions of children. Today is the official start of the new school year. It was delayed two weeks because of recent insurgent violence. Some parents kept their children home due to fears of insurgency and violence.
A deadline for the release of enemy combatant Yasser Hamdi has come and gone. The U.S. is negotiating strict terms of Hamdi's release with Saudi Arabia. CNN's justice correspondent Kelli Arena has more on this complex case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's been nearly three years, and Yasser Hamdi is still in U.S. military custody, after being captured on a battle field in Afghanistan. He signed an agreement with the U.S. government more than two weeks ago that was supposed to lead to his release. As part of that deal, he will relinquish his U.S. citizenship, and has promised not to come back to the United States for ten years.
U.S. officials said the only thing left to be worked out was travel to Saudi Arabia. But it turns out the Saudis were not on board.
ADEL AL JUBEIR, SAUDI FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: Well, we are working with the U.S. government as we speak in terms of to facilitate this matter.
ARENA: The agreement calls for Hamdi to notify Saudi officials if he comes into contact with any terrorists or becomes aware of any terrorist plots. Hamdi also agreed not to leave Saudi Arabia for five years, and to never travel to countries, including Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan. The Saudis say Hamdi should be set free with no conditions, because he was never charged, and they do not want to play enforcer.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: We think that the issues that we've discussed can be worked out and, in fact, are looking to hear from them on a more or less final response.
ARENA: Hamdi's lawyer says the responsibility to comply with the agreement rests solely on his client.
FRANK DURIHAM, LAWYER FOR VASSER HAMDI: My view was totally unenforceable unless Mr. Hamdi decides on his own to honor it, and I think he will, but it is, does not require the Saudi government to lift one finger in connection with it.
ARENA (on camera): The case could end up back in district court, an outcome the U.S. government is aggressively trying to avoid.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: He led the investigation into the disappearance and murder of Laci Peterson, but did detective Craig Grogan help the defense team in court yesterday with some key testimony? We'll debate that case with lawyers from both sides of the courtroom next.
And still to come, how these kids got a true test in honesty and how they passed with flying colors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: The American tailbone asked for a lighter sentence and prosecutors entered the final leg of their case against Scott Peterson. We will take a look at both cases in our "Legal Briefs." Joining us this afternoon, Avery Friedman who is a civil rights attorney and law professor, he is in Cleveland. And Richard Herman is a criminal defense attorney, and he's joining us from Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
Mr. Friedman, let's begin with you. Based on the similarities between Yasser Hamdi and John Walker Lindh, should John Walker Lindh be released from prison as Yasser Hamdi has been?
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well Andrea, there's a huge difference between the two. Lindh confessed, Hamdi didn't. Lindh was in a court. Hamdi was not. Lindh wants clemency and frankly, Hamdi is saying good-bye to America, he has renounced his American citizenship. So really it's apples and oranges. Some major news organizations have come out suggesting that the 20-year sentence be reduced but Andrea, I just don't see it happening, at least under this administration.
KOPPEL: Richard Herman, what do you think the chances are that a new president in the White House might give Mr. Lindh a plea agreement?
RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well I don't think any president is going to give this guy clemency. You know just like in the Martha Stewart case. You have to have an excellent attorney represent you early on. Here John Walker Lindh's attorney blew it. He rushed in, he rushed to cut a deal for his client, he made a horrible deal for him and now he's going to be stuck with it. Clemency is the only way out. And you know there's no way George W's going to give him clemency that is for certain.
FRIEDMAN: That is not fair. The really isn't fair. Because the reality is that whether it's going to be John Kerry or George Bush, I agree that we're not going to see clemency, we are not going to see commutation. But to blame the attorney at the time this was going in, in October of 2002, I frankly think he did the best he could, at a different time in America, that guy could have been executed. He was looking at a life sentence, 20 years wasn't a bad deal.
HERMAN: And Hamdi is going to walk away free and Lindh could have had the same thing.
FRIEDMAN: Oh, I don't agree with that at all.
KOPPEL: All right, let's just agree to disagree and move on to the Peterson case. This week Modesto police chief Craig Grogan had said earlier that Peterson had only called him about once a month to check in on the case. But under cross-examination, he actually admitted that Peterson had been calling him 10, 11 times during a month. Avery Friedman why don't you take a crack at that one.
FRIEDMAN: Well you know the fact is the detective really screwed up. If he would have just been a little bit more open about it, the prosecution is putting their case together. He didn't have to embellish. All he had to say is the department got regular calls. I didn't. That's where he screwed up and that's the problem with his testimony.
HERMAN: Andrea --
KOPPEL: Mr. Herman, it certainly was a plus for the defense.
HERMAN: Sure. It was major for the defense, because at that time, Grogan had come in, he had done devastating work with his testimony, and he was believed, he was honest and the jury was embracing him and then Geragos, like he has done with virtually every single prosecution witness, has gone up there, and has basically unscrewed the testimony. He got Grogan, the lead detective, like Brocchini, another outright liar, that Grogan basically lied to the jury.
In his own notes, Scott called him on a virtual daily basis for the first 12 days. He lied to the jury; he misrepresented Scott to the jury. And in a case where the prosecution is seeking the death penalty, the jurors hold the police and the detectives to extremely high standard, and when that standard has been undermined, they don't believe him, and they can't possibly convict him.
KOPPEL: How can something like that happen? I mean surely the prosecution must have sat down with Grogan and asked him how many times Scott Peterson called. How could they make such a big mistake?
HERMAN: Well...
FRIEDMAN: No, no, I think the issue was I think they were prepared. I think there's a police mentality. But you know what not withstanding the detective's behavior, we're at the end of the line for the prosecution and here is the test. If Richard is right, and the state has failed to make its case beyond a reasonable doubt, we are going to see motions by Mark Geragos to have the case thrown out at the end of this prosecution, and you know what? That motion is going to be denied, and Geragos is going to have to put his defense on.
HERMAN: Well, Andrew, the motion will be denied or reserved decision by the judge but we have seen the defense case. We've seen it in the cross-examinations of all of these prosecution witnesses.
FRIEDMAN: That's right.
HERMAN: What the defense will do is, it will be a battle of the experts. They'll put on experts who will now destroy all of the prosecution experts, create further reasonable doubt, and we're looking at a hung jury here. KOPPEL: On that point, on that point, hydrologist Ralph Chung's testimony came up this week. First of all, what is a hydrologist, and why is his testimony important?
FRIEDMAN: The hydrologist is important, Andrea, because he is going to deal with the properties of water and how the water moves. He started his testimony on Friday. The prosecution is going to end their prosecution with his expert conclusion, and it will be on Monday, that, if hypothetically, the bodies were put in the water in December of 2002, could it be that they would have washed up on shore when they did? His answer to that question will be, absolutely.
KOPPEL: Mr. Herman, why don't close this out here.
HERMAN: Isn't that preposterous, they're going to put this guy up here and make him testify that the bodies washed up exactly where he should have if Scott dropped them where he was boating. You know the defense is going to put a guy up there he is going to say the opposite; he is going to say it is like reading tealeaves. You can't possibly predict it with that degree of accuracy. It's outrageous.
KOPPEL: Richard Herman, Avery Friedman, I think we got a little grist for the mill here and we'll be continuing this as the case goes on, at least for the next couple of weeks. Thank you both.
FRIEDMAN: We will see you soon. Take care.
HERMAN: See you soon Andrea.
KOPPEL: Well forget asphalt. The House has learned how to pave with pork. Up next find out why a bill needed to fix your area highways is being sent to the cutting board.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: News across America now. Newly unsealed transcripts in the Kobe Bryant case are out. Including police interviews with Bryant and his accuser. According to the documents, the woman told investigators Bryant repeatedly ignored her request to stop their sexual encounter. Criminal charges against Bryant were dropped last month.
More fallout from four hurricanes, which raked across Florida. NASA says it must delay plans to re-launch the space shuttle from March or April to May or July. Storms closed Kennedy Space Center for a total of nine days, and damaged some facilities but no spacecraft or hardware.
Promising news for a rare species of whale. North pacific right whales may not be going extinct after all. Scientists have spotted twice as many right whales in the baring sea as previously seen giving them hope of a comeback.
There's an old proverb that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But during an election year, Americans may find out that lawmakers are trying to pave the bad roads in their area with government pork. CNN's Louise Schiavone squeals on some of the worst offenders.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Bad roads, scary bridges. If you're driving over them, it's distressing, but if you're a congressman in Washington, it looks like an opportunity to bring home some bacon, and do some good.
REP. PETER DEFAZIO, (D) OREGON: We could begin to deal with 161,000 bridges in this country that are structurally deficient. One in four, my own little state has a $4.7 billion bridge problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are 17 bridges just in my district alone that are currently in critical condition.
SCHIAVONE: But every district has problems, and the transportation bill has ballooned dramatically. House members have stuffed 3,200 special projects into a nearly $300 billion six-year spending plan. The measure collapsed of its own weight with the Senate and the White House refusing to swallow all that pork.
ERICH ZIMMERMAN, TAXPAYERS FOR COMMON SENSE: There's perhaps some sanity taking over an Capitol Hill that says we just can't be passing a bill with billions of dollars of pork stuffed into it.
SCHIAVONE: And in typical Washington fashion, the more powerful the member, the more plentiful the pork. For example, with his hands on the purse strings, Don Young was down for $590 million in highway bill pork. Speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert was looking at a possible $161 million. And top house Democrat Nancy Pelosi was expecting $120 million.
BRIAN HEIDL, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The dominant perception in Washington is that which ever side spends the most money will win re- election in November. As a result, we have a bipartisan bidding war between the Republicans and Democrats.
SCHIAVONE: It looks like Congress is going to have to trim its bill back before the president is willing to sign it. That means cutting roughly $50 billion worth of road and bridge repairs that some lawmakers may have already promised.
Louise Schiavone, CNN Financial News, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: It is a common playground taunt. "Finders, keepers, losers weepers." And if these middle school students had followed that saying, they could have been $20,000 richer. You're going to want to get the kids around the TV for this one, but they didn't. I'll ask why they decided to return Yankee playoff tickets to their rightful owner next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: An 84-year-old record has fallen in major league baseball. Ichiro Suzuki of the Seattle Mariner's has taken the title of most hits in a single season, 259, that's two more than the previous record. Suzuki says it's a big relief to get the record behind him, calling it the highlight of his career.
And a scuffle over Barry Bonds' 700th home run ball is over. Giants fan Steve Williams had been sued by another fan who claimed that he had had his mitts on the historic baseball, but a judge said there was no evidence to support that claim. Williams can now sell the ball if he wants. It has been valued at more than $100,000.
Major league baseball doesn't always bring out people's best behavior. We've seen adults scuffle over fly balls and players bonk unruly fans with chairs, but some young baseball fans in New Jersey have just raised the bar, after finding a valuable box of tickets and turning them in. One of these sterling young men is Chris Osmun; he joins us from New York with a story that would make any parent proud. Chris, you're 12 years old.
CHRIS OSMUN, RETURNED LOST YANKEE TICKETS: Yes.
KOPPEL: Hi.
OSMUN: Hello.
KOPPEL: How are you?
OSMUN: Good.
KOPPEL: Tell us what happened and how you found these tickets.
OSMUN: Um, I found these tickets when I was walking home after school to get a snack at 7-eleven, and a couple of my friends had gotten tickets before me, and they had, like three or four sheets of these World Series Yankee tickets that were, like $331 apiece. So one of my friends and I went back to see if there were any more, and we found two ripped up or a couple ripped up tickets, and two that were still together.
KOPPEL: And did you have any idea how much the tickets were worth when you found them?
OSMUN: We had a little bit of an idea, but we didn't have much.
KOPPEL: And now, you just decided on the spur of the moment, hey, we're going to give these tickets back, or did you think about keeping them? I know you're a big Yankees fan.
OSMUN: Um -- well, we -- um, for a second, there was the thought that we had these World Series Yankee tickets, but, um, that -- for that split second, that was all. But, um, then we thought that, if we had just spent thousands of dollars on World Series tickets, we would want to know what happened to them.
KOPPEL: Now where did you learn that lesson? Is this something that your parents taught you or how did you learn it? OSMUN: Well, my mom has always, like done the right thing, and things like that, and I've tried to sneak, like a couple candy bars past her a couple of times, but she's always, like, "you got to put, like you got to do the right thing and you got to be nice and think about what the person who, like you stole from or whatever, would think about."
KOPPEL: And you got an unexpected treat, you and your friends.
OSMUN: Yes. We got to go to the Yankee game, where Bernie Williams hit the home run to clinch the playoffs.
KOPPEL: Well, that must have been a lot of fun. Chris, if there are any kids watching us now, what would you want to tell them?
OSMUN: I would want to tell them that, like honesty really does pay off, because at first, we weren't expecting anything at all, and now we get, like Yankee tickets, and Nets tickets, and it's been really awesome, cool.
KOPPEL: Chris, you are a really neat kid. You're only 12 years old, and I think you've taught all of us a really valuable lesson. Thank you so much for coming in.
OSMUN: Thank you.
KOPPEL: There is much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. At the top of the hour, it's "Next@CNN." Then at 4:00, "CNN Live Saturday" big changes are coming to America's airline industry. Find out what those changes will mean to you. Then at 5:00, "People in the News" profiles the number two men on the vice presidential ticket, Vice President Dick Cheney and Senator John Edwards.
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Aired October 2, 2004 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN ANCHOR: Now, in the news. A U.S. commander in Iraq says in Samarra has killed 125 insurgents, and led to the capture of 88 more. Major General John Batiste tells CNN the city is now under control of U.S. and Iraqi forces. Samarra had been considered a major rebel stronghold.
Hundreds of anti-war protesters turn out for a march to the White House from Arlington National Cemetery. They carried cardboard coffins. Organizers say the marchers include surviving family members of those killed in the war.
Scientists are predicting more steam eruptions of the Mt. St. Helens volcano in Washington State. The mountain is making rumbling noises. And experts say pressure is building toward further violent activity, possibly soon. A steam eruption yesterday damaged some scientific equipment, but no serious injuries are reported.
We begin this hour in Iraq where U.S. and Iraqi forces have been fighting to retake insurgent strongholds in the center of the country. In Samarra, the U.S. says at least 125 insurgent were killed in today's battles. We get the latest now from CNN's Brent Sadler who is in Baghdad. Brent, how are the U.S. and Iraqi military able to differentiate between the insurgents and the Iraqi civilians?
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: One of the problems in fighting this sort of combat in an area like Samarra, that city, a large number of people mixed, and it is custom and practice for insurgents to melt away, and reform in the middle of street battles. But what we've seen really in terms of the performance of the Iraqi army is, according to U.S. military commanders on the ground, a strong cohesive performance, standing firm, and engaging in some of the battles.
Of course, they had to rely heavily on U.S. forces from the 1st U.S. Army Infantry Division, backed up by tanks and air power helicopters, U.S. helicopters, firing against insurgents as they move from sector to sector and as the forces advance from sector to sector, killing, as we've heard, around 125 insurgents and capturing around 80 others.
Now, this is the latest assessment we have from Samarra by a top military commander there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR GEN. JOHN BATISTE, U.S. ARMY: I'm very confident that the future of Samarra is good. This is great news for the people of Samarra. 200,000 people that have been held captive, hostage, if you will, by just a couple hundred of thugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SADLER: Several days more of mopping up, of operations are expecting Samarra, say military commanders, is to capture and kill other suspected insurgents, still able to operate there.
In other military action, U.S. warplanes have again been striking insurgent, suspected insurgent targets in the city of Fallujah, that's west of Baghdad. Succeeding in Samarra is seen as one step to taking on other arrested areas, the most important of which is Fallujah.
This is really the hard core insurgent stronghold. And made up, according to U.S. intelligence, of militant Islamic fighters, foreign fighters, as well as insurgents loyal to the deposed regime. And this is really the top nut to crack, but it is seen as paramount in the Iraqi interim government strategy of restoring national security ahead of elections at the end of January -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: Brent Sadler in Baghdad, thanks, Brent.
Bread and butter issues replace war and terror on the campaign trail this week. President Bush is spending the day in Ohio where he is touting his tax cuts. CNN's Elaine Quijano joins us from the White House with more. Elaine, is it just a coincidence that this tax cut is being announced less than a month before the presidential election?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Certainly hard to look at anything as if it's a coincidence this far out, Andrea, but the president is talking about tax cuts, also home ownership, and other domestic issues, but at the same time, he is continuing really what amounts to a post-debate rebuttal that began yesterday, when he said that his opponent, Democratic senator John Kerry had a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the war on terrorism.
Now, today, at two stops in Ohio, the two stops that he's had so far, first in Columbus, and then just a short time ago in Mansfield, Ohio, the president again slammed Senator Kerry on foreign policy.
The president has zeroed in on a few of Senator Kerry's statements from Thursday's debate. One of them, you will recall, Senator Kerry discussing his views on how the U.S. should take pre- emptive military action. The senator said he would never cede that right as president, but said that action should pass the global test so people understand the reasons.
Well, this afternoon the president offered his own interpretation of that comment. And said, under his leadership, America's national security decisions would be made in the oval office, not in foreign capitals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Senator Kerry's approach to foreign policy would give foreign governments veto power over our national security decisions. I have a different view. When our country is in danger, it's not the president's job to take an international poll, it's the president's job to defend this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUIJANO: Now the Kerry campaign, as you might expect, has fired back. They say this is another example of the president taking Senator Kerry's comments out of context. They say that the test is one of credibility, of making sure people fully understand the reasons for taking action.
Meantime, the president continues sumping for votes, as I said, in that crucial state. Ohio, 20 electoral votes up for grabs there. The president has one more campaign stop today before returning to Washington tonight -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: And his 27th swing through Ohio. Elaine Quijano at the White House, thanks.
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry will soon be heading back to Washington after a four-day swing through Florida. CNN national correspondent Frank Buckley was with Kerry during a morning stop in Orlando.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Senator John Kerry critical of President Bush during a speech here focusing on domestic policy and economic issues. Senator Kerry saying that President Bush has consistently favored special interests over the interests of middle class Americans.
The speech delivered here at Freedom High School in Orlando. Senator Kerry using the same argument he used to try to frame the foreign policy debate on Thursday, now trying to use that argument to frame the domestic debates taking place October 8 and 13. That argument that President Bush can't fix problems if he won't acknowledge they exist.
SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you ask President Bush, he'd tell you that everything is just fine here at home. He'd tell you, this is the best economy in our lifetime. I mean these are the things they've said. I'm not making this up.
He says that maybe this is the best that we can do. Well, maybe that's true for his friends: Enron, Halliburton, for the big oil industry. But I'll tell you this, that's not true for the type of folks I've been meeting all around America who really build this country.
BUCKLEY: Senator Kerry did not address the comments coming from President Bush that Senator Kerry would seek the approval of the leaders from other countries to use military force. Senator Kerry's aides, however, saying that the senator made it very clear at the debate on Thursday that he would do whatever was necessary to protect the U.S., including musing military force.
Strategists for Senator Kerry adding that President Bush is trying to get what they call a do-over of Thursday's debate, using lines that he forgot to use on Thursday. They added we've moved on, they're stuck in last week. Frank Buckley, CNN, Orlando, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: After putting out a blast of steam and ash, the Mount St. Helens volcano is quieter today, but more violent activity could come soon according to scientists. Let's get the latest now from Donna Tetreault who is near the volcano now. Donna, just how near are you?
DONNA TETREAULT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're about five and a half miles away. And that's what geologists are saying is safe for us at this point. Now, scientists are predicting more sites from Mount St. Helens, but nothing threatening. And it could happen as soon as today, any time today.
The earthquakes inside the volcano are up to 3 in magnitude. And they're occurring several times per minute. This activity is similar to the activity in 1980, which left 57 people dead, and $3 billion in damage, but the big difference is that these earthquakes are shallow, not as deep as in 1980.
Scientists with the U.S. Geological Survey is reassessing the situation now, because of all of the power or pressure that's involved. But still, they believe the volcano is not threatening. Yesterday, the biggest eruption in 18 years forced ash and steam from the volcano. It lasted for about 24 minutes.
All this, this all began earlier in the week, when thousands of earthquakes occurred inside the crater. Rocks the size of cars spilled out of the volcano.
Now, seismic activity did die down for a few hours after the eruption yesterday, but now, it's back up again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM PIERSON, USGS GEOLOGIST: Seismicity is 10 to 15 percent above where it was yesterday, just before the steam bursts came out, and the trend is continuing to go up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TETREAULT: And scientists say that we could even see bigger eruptions than the one that we saw yesterday. And we might even get a glimpse of lava spilling from the volcano -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: Hey Donna, how long do they expect the seismic activity to last?
TETREAULT: You know, I asked that. We just had a press conference, just wrapped up, and they said they're expecting probably days to weeks, but you know, they're still not sure. It's a very precarious situation and they said that they're going to continue to monitor and look into it. but at this point, they're predicting days into weeks.
KOPPEL: OK. Well, I guess we know what you'll be doing for the very near future. Donna Tetreault in Washington State. Thanks for joining us.
Stopping Iran from becoming a nuclear power: John Kerry has tried to make it a major issue in the race for the White House, but is there really anything that Washington can do? I'll talk with an expert in the field next.
Still to come: a violent week in the Middle East, leaves dozens dead in gaza, what prompted this latest flareup. We'll have a live report from Jerusalem.
Plus, find out what's the holdup in the release of a so-called enemy combatant.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: Here's one of the few things that both presidential candidates seemed to agree on during last Thursday's debate: nuclear proliferation is one of the greatest, if not the greatest threat to U.S. and global security. Now, U.N. inspectors are reportedly planning to go to Iran and have a closer look at a military complex, where U.S. suspects Tehran has been conducting secret work on atomic weapons.
Iran denies nuclear activities at the Parchen (ph) Military Complex. And it also denies that it ignored previous requests by the International Atomic Energy Agency to visit the site.
Does Iran have nuclear ambitions? If so, what does that mean for the already volatile Middle East? And what can or should be done to intervene?
Joining me to talk about it, Joseph Cirincione, who is an expert on nuclear proliferation, and also wrote "Deadly Arsenals: Tracking Weapons of Mass Destruction." Nice to see you Joe.
JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, AUTHOR: My pleasure.
KOPPEL: Why should Americans care? Just how just how close is Iran do we think, to having a nuclear weapon?
CIRINCIONE: They could probably within 3 to 5 years, if everything goes well for them. And that's an optimistic assumption, but it's the kind of asumption you have to go on. The danger really isn't that Iran would get a nuclear weapon and attack the United States, or attack Europe with it. No deterence is alive and well. They understand what would happen with it if they tried that.
The danger is what happens to the region, if Iran becomes a nuclear power, joining Israel, which has about 100 nuclear weapons? Saudi Arabia and Egypt, for example, could not stand idly by. They might start their own nuclear programs. Egypt used to have one, Saudi Arabia bankrolled Pakistan's. Turkey might consider a nuclear option. And finally, a new government in Iraq might consider it.
KOPPEL: It could start a domino effect.
CIRINCIONE: You have a nuclear-dominated Middle East with all of these unresolved regional conflicts.
KOPPEL: Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. Because there could be some viewers who are watching this, saying, we heard the same thing from the intelligence community leading up to the war in Iraq. Why is this intelligence something that we should believe?
CIRINCIONE: The difference is that we have inspectors on the ground actually going to these facilities. And Iran actually admits almost all of it. The issue here is that Iran is peacefully pursuing a program to enrich uranium for its reactors. They're allowed to do this. The danger is, the very same technologies that can enrich uranium for fuel rods one year, can turn that enriched uranium into bomb material the next. That's the issue.
KOPPEL: Now what are the sticking points that the U.S. has been faced with right now in trying to get sanctions placed against Iran at the United Nations are are the European. What will it take to get the Europeans on board?
CIRINCIONE: Well, the Europeans themselves issued a statement just yesterday, the European leaders, asking the United States to move quickly on this, because we're in a race against time. We're almost at a point of no return, sometime in the next year or two. If Iran doesn't turn back, it will be too late to stop them. They actually advocate something like what Senator Kerry has been talking about, a new approach to Iran. That counts on foreign relations...
KOPPEL: Which means what?
CIRINCIONE: That you actually engage with this regime. You give up the idea that you're going to overthrow this regime, or that somehow the reformists, if they came to power, would give up this program. This is an Iranian national ambition. We have to engage them, deal with them now and give them a deal that they can't refuse.
KOPPEL: So in other words, maybe not pursue sanctions then.
CIRINCIONE: Sanctions have to -- what we need now is for Europe to be tougher and for the United States to be more flexible.
KOPPEL: But what does that mean, to be tougher?
CIRINCIONE: Europe has to be -- Europe doesn't have sanctions on Iran right no, only we do. They have to tell be able to tell Iran, with the Russians by the way and the Chinese, that if you don't shut down this program, we are going to crush you economically. No more nuclear trade, perhaps even a ban on oil investment, oil embargoes, there's a series of ratcheted sanctions you can put in. The U.S. has to be more flexible saying we're willing to come to terms with you. If you do this, we're willing to give you security guarantees, guarantee we're not going to overthrow your country. And by the way, we'll work to try and resolve the regional issues that make you feel insecure.
KOPPEL: In other words, not just the stick, but put some carrots on the table.
CIRINCIONE: Exactly, a balance of force and diplomacy, a selective engagement with the government of Iran.
KOPPEL: Joseph Cirincione of Carnegie, thanks so much for coming in today.
CIRINCIONE: My pleasure, Andrea.
KOPPEL: Giving the American public time to digest the first presidential debate. Now that nearly 48 hours have passed, is there any change in people's perceptions? I'll speak with political analyst hron Brownstein next.
Still to come: they are tickets that could put you behind the dugouts for the Yankees playoff. So, what would do you if you found them in the street? A group of Jersey kids faced that exact dilemma. We'll tell what you they did.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KOPPEL: Bruce Springsteen and R.E.M.'s Michael Styke kicked on the moveoff.org sponsored "Vote for Change" concert tour last night in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. It was one of six politically charged concerts playing in battleground states. More than 40 additional ones are planned between now and the election in support of the Kerry- Edwards campaign.
By now, you know most viewers who saw Thursday night's presidential debate thought Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry was a clear winner, yet most think President Bush still makes a better commander in chief. Here to help us sort out the real impact of the president's debates is CNN's political analyst Ron Brownstein.
So explain that, Ron. The polls after the debate showed that Kerry was the winner, but it hasn't swung in his favor in terms of the overall polls.
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LA TIMES": I think what we saw is something that is not unusual in a presidential race, and it may sound kind of odd to say, but the horse race between the two candidates is often the lagging indicator in the race, it's the last thing traditionally to move.
What we've had over the last few months is a situation where despite doubts about the direction of the country and some of President Bush's major choices, particularly the decision to invade Iraq, John Kerry hasn't been able to capitalize, because he faced so many doubts in the electorate about himself, whether he was up to being commander in chief.
Probably the most important thing that happened for Kerry in this debate, was that even though impressions of Bush in the polls didn't deteriorate, they did improve on Kerry. He began to make up some of the ground he's lost since his convention in July. And that potentially puts him in to position to benefit with voters who are ambivalent about the direction that President Bush has set.
KOPPEL: Have we seen anything reflected in the polls that would indicate that the debate changed the debate itself in the campaign?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think we've seen a couple of things. I think the most important thing that happened in the debate was that we move from a referendum primarily on Kerry to a referendum primarily on Bush, at least for the night. In August and September, the focus of this race overwhelmingly has been whether John Kerry is up to being commander in chief. And he really hasn't won that referendum. With all the attacks that he's faced from Republicans.
On the other hand, even while that's going on, we still have the country divided almost exactly in half on whether President Bush is doing a good job, whether it was the right thing to invade Iraq, whether his policies have helped the economy.
And what we saw in the debate was that even though Bush reiterated those criticisms about Kerry, inevitably the focus was more on his record and his performance. And in that environment, Kerry, I think, has a better shot. That's a closer race than it is on this question of personal characteristics so far.
KOPPEL: Looking ahead to Tuesday night's vice presidential debate, some outside analysts have said they believe that this, in fact, could be the most important debate leading up to the election.
BROWNSTEIN: Ooh, I don't know. I think that people vote for the top of the ticket primarily. I think this will be a very entertaining one and interesting debate, because I can't remember one, maybe Dan Quayle and Lloyd Benson where the physical and stylistic contrast between the 2 combatants was more pronounced. I mean, Dick Cheney and John Edwards are about as far apart from the spectrum as people get.
But in the end, I think people do vote on the top of the ticket. And the question for John Kerry, I think, is can he sustain a focus on the elements of President Bush's record that voters aren't easy with.
You saw President Bush today, right back with the argument, talking about this global test. Once again, trying to make Kerry the focus, and whether Kerry should be commander in chief. That, I think that, terrain clearly over the last two months is an advantage the president.
Can Kerry keep the focus, as at least they did during those 09 minutes, on the parts of President Bush's record the voters are ambivalent about. That to me, is the critical question for the next two debates. KOPPEL: OK. Well, looking ahead then Friday's next presidential debate, which will be a town hall format, what do you think either candidate needs to prove in that debate?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think President Bush is in a situation where he simply has to, kind of, lighten up a little bit and smile a little more, show a little more respect for his opponent.
KOPPEL: Why is that important?
BROWNSTEIN: Because I think that what happened in the debate, was that many people reacted, much like Al Gore in the first debate in 2000, they reacted badly to his sort of demeanor. And in this case, like with Gore in 2000, it was a risk, because it ties into an underlying perception.
One, the downs -- the flipside of the resolve that the president gets credit for with voters is that in polls the majority of Americans also have described him as stubborn. And if it came across that he was indignant for at being questioned, at even having his judgments criticized at all, it does reinforce, if people perceive it that way, a Kerry argument that Bush is too stubborn to change courts even when events seemingly demand it.
I think for Kerry, the challenge is to continue to do what he did, which is to restore some of the damage that he suffered in the last two months, primarily own the issue of whether he has a plan for the country.
Extraordinarily low percentages of the voters believe that he has laid out a clear plan fort next four years. He made up some of that ground on foreign policy, obviously he has got to do the same thing on domestic policy. I think the last debate, probably more than this middle debate, town hall debates get a little diffuse.
KOPPEL: YOu got a lot in there, Ron. Thanks so much.
BROWNSTEIN: Thank you.
KOPPEL: Ron Brownstein of the "LA Times."
Just a reminder, you can watch the upcoming debates right here on CNN. Bush and Kerry will face off at a town hall meeting Friday night in St. Louis, Missouri and then meet again on October 13 in Tempe, Arizona. Cheney and Edwards, as we were saying, meet 1 time only, this Tuesday night in Cleveland, Ohio. We'll have it all right here live on CNN.
Held hostage by pork. Find out why a bill to fix your local roads and bridges is a long way from becoming law.
Targeted in Gaza: could two Hamas militants be among the dead? We'll have a live report from Jerusalem next.
Plus caught in legal limbo: The U.S. had planned to release an enemy combatant to Saudi Arabia. Find out why that plan has run into some diplomatic snags.
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KOPPEL: Right now in the news, the showdown in Samarra continues, as 5,000 U.S. and Iraqi troops remain dedicated to rooting out insurgents and stabilizing the Sunni Triangle city, ahead of planned elections in January. Amid reports of sporadic battles today, the latest death toll stands at 125.
The Iraqi insurgency also targeted overnight in Fallujah. U.S. military sources say they made a precision strike on yet another confirmed Abu Musab al Zarqawi terrorist strikes. Nine have been reported killed in the air strikes. Iraqi hospital sources say women and children may be among the dead and wounded.
Harsh criticism for the Department of Homeland Security, and it's coming from its own inspector general. A strongly worded report says the department has 12 separate terror watch lists from 9 different government agencies, but fails to consolidate information that might guard against international terrorism. A Homeland Security spokesman responds that the department believes "the premise" of the report is not correct.
President Bush making his 27th visit to the battleground state of Ohio today, and talking taxes as both candidates sprint toward the November 2nd finish line.
Meanwhile day four for Senator John Kerry in Florida, where he took the Bush administration to task for threatening the future of the middle class.
We turn now to the crisis in the Middle East. Israel's retaliation escalates in Gaza. There have been deadly gunfights, tank shellings and air strikes. Israel calls its operation against militant violence "days of Pentanes." CNN's John Vause is live from Jerusalem with details. John what is behind this latest round?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello Andrea. Well it's been a barrage of missiles being fired from the Gaza strip into Israeli towns, which has forced crackdown by the Israeli military, this is the fourth day of violence in the Gaza strip. And within the last few hours an Israeli air strike has claimed the lives of two members of the militant group Hamas. According to witnesses an Israeli missile hit a car driving through the main street of Gaza city.
Hamas sources tell CNN one of the dead Matqu (ph) Moustaha (ph) is a senior Hamas military leader, directly responsible for the launching and the manufacturing of those custom rockets, which are being fired at Israeli towns. Violence has escalated in Gaza since Wednesday when a custom rocket claimed the lives of two children in an Israeli border town of Starot (ph) that is less than a mile from the Gaza border. The death toll today Andrea stands at least ten militants including four militants who were killed after they breached the Gaza security fence, heavily armed with automatic weapons and grenades. Israeli authorities say they were heading for a nearby Kabutz when they were shot dead. Earlier another four militants from Islamic Dehardwood (ph) were killed in Israeli air strike. Israel says they were in fact planning an attack on Israel. Palestinian sources though say those men were, in fact, praying at the time during the missile strike. This is one of the largest military operations that Israel has launched in the Gaza strip in four years of fighting.
It says this is an open-ended operation designed to create a five-mile buffer between the Gaza strip and those border towns. Those custom rockets have a range of about five miles. So far in four days of fighting, more than 40 Palestinians, both civilians and militants, have been killed. The Israeli death toll stands at five, including those two children, who were killed on Wednesday.
Now today at an emergency meeting of his cabinet in his compound in Ramallah, the Palestinian authority president Yasser Arafat called on the world to intervene, to stop what he calls these inhumane crimes being carried out by Israel in Gaza -- Andrea.
KOPPEL: John, you said it's been going on for the last four days. Who started it?
VAUSE: Well it appears to have been started by the direct result, the trigger for all of this was in fact those missiles, which were fired into the border town of Sadat on Wednesday. But this has been bubbling along for quite some time now. In fact, over the last four years, Israel says that more than 4,000 rockets and mortars and grenades have been fired from the Gaza strip into those border towns. They haven't claimed a great deal of lives or casualties up until this point.
But what has been happening over the last few months or so, those custom rockets have been becoming increasingly accurate with a greater range. Originally they were four miles. Now they're up to five miles and there's some speculation that they could soon be up to ten miles so the Israel Prime minister Aerial Sharon has become increasingly desperate, if you like, to try and crack down on these missile launches to stop not just the missiles from being fired but destroy the workshops where they're being made to end this missile threat once and for all.
KOPPEL: Well thanks for that clarification. John Vause joining us from Jerusalem. Thank you John.
A check now of other news around the world. Deadly explosions and shootings in Indiana, two bomb blasts kill at least 23 people and leave 87 others wounded. One explosion hit a train station and the other a nearby market in a northeastern town.
In Pakistan, a funeral procession becomes a violent protest. Hundreds of people set fire to government buildings during a funeral procession today for 30 victims of a mosque bombing. Protesters believe the government is not doing enough to find those responsible for Friday's suicide bombing. And in Iraq, school is back in session for millions of children. Today is the official start of the new school year. It was delayed two weeks because of recent insurgent violence. Some parents kept their children home due to fears of insurgency and violence.
A deadline for the release of enemy combatant Yasser Hamdi has come and gone. The U.S. is negotiating strict terms of Hamdi's release with Saudi Arabia. CNN's justice correspondent Kelli Arena has more on this complex case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's been nearly three years, and Yasser Hamdi is still in U.S. military custody, after being captured on a battle field in Afghanistan. He signed an agreement with the U.S. government more than two weeks ago that was supposed to lead to his release. As part of that deal, he will relinquish his U.S. citizenship, and has promised not to come back to the United States for ten years.
U.S. officials said the only thing left to be worked out was travel to Saudi Arabia. But it turns out the Saudis were not on board.
ADEL AL JUBEIR, SAUDI FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: Well, we are working with the U.S. government as we speak in terms of to facilitate this matter.
ARENA: The agreement calls for Hamdi to notify Saudi officials if he comes into contact with any terrorists or becomes aware of any terrorist plots. Hamdi also agreed not to leave Saudi Arabia for five years, and to never travel to countries, including Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan. The Saudis say Hamdi should be set free with no conditions, because he was never charged, and they do not want to play enforcer.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: We think that the issues that we've discussed can be worked out and, in fact, are looking to hear from them on a more or less final response.
ARENA: Hamdi's lawyer says the responsibility to comply with the agreement rests solely on his client.
FRANK DURIHAM, LAWYER FOR VASSER HAMDI: My view was totally unenforceable unless Mr. Hamdi decides on his own to honor it, and I think he will, but it is, does not require the Saudi government to lift one finger in connection with it.
ARENA (on camera): The case could end up back in district court, an outcome the U.S. government is aggressively trying to avoid.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: He led the investigation into the disappearance and murder of Laci Peterson, but did detective Craig Grogan help the defense team in court yesterday with some key testimony? We'll debate that case with lawyers from both sides of the courtroom next.
And still to come, how these kids got a true test in honesty and how they passed with flying colors.
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KOPPEL: The American tailbone asked for a lighter sentence and prosecutors entered the final leg of their case against Scott Peterson. We will take a look at both cases in our "Legal Briefs." Joining us this afternoon, Avery Friedman who is a civil rights attorney and law professor, he is in Cleveland. And Richard Herman is a criminal defense attorney, and he's joining us from Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
Mr. Friedman, let's begin with you. Based on the similarities between Yasser Hamdi and John Walker Lindh, should John Walker Lindh be released from prison as Yasser Hamdi has been?
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well Andrea, there's a huge difference between the two. Lindh confessed, Hamdi didn't. Lindh was in a court. Hamdi was not. Lindh wants clemency and frankly, Hamdi is saying good-bye to America, he has renounced his American citizenship. So really it's apples and oranges. Some major news organizations have come out suggesting that the 20-year sentence be reduced but Andrea, I just don't see it happening, at least under this administration.
KOPPEL: Richard Herman, what do you think the chances are that a new president in the White House might give Mr. Lindh a plea agreement?
RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well I don't think any president is going to give this guy clemency. You know just like in the Martha Stewart case. You have to have an excellent attorney represent you early on. Here John Walker Lindh's attorney blew it. He rushed in, he rushed to cut a deal for his client, he made a horrible deal for him and now he's going to be stuck with it. Clemency is the only way out. And you know there's no way George W's going to give him clemency that is for certain.
FRIEDMAN: That is not fair. The really isn't fair. Because the reality is that whether it's going to be John Kerry or George Bush, I agree that we're not going to see clemency, we are not going to see commutation. But to blame the attorney at the time this was going in, in October of 2002, I frankly think he did the best he could, at a different time in America, that guy could have been executed. He was looking at a life sentence, 20 years wasn't a bad deal.
HERMAN: And Hamdi is going to walk away free and Lindh could have had the same thing.
FRIEDMAN: Oh, I don't agree with that at all.
KOPPEL: All right, let's just agree to disagree and move on to the Peterson case. This week Modesto police chief Craig Grogan had said earlier that Peterson had only called him about once a month to check in on the case. But under cross-examination, he actually admitted that Peterson had been calling him 10, 11 times during a month. Avery Friedman why don't you take a crack at that one.
FRIEDMAN: Well you know the fact is the detective really screwed up. If he would have just been a little bit more open about it, the prosecution is putting their case together. He didn't have to embellish. All he had to say is the department got regular calls. I didn't. That's where he screwed up and that's the problem with his testimony.
HERMAN: Andrea --
KOPPEL: Mr. Herman, it certainly was a plus for the defense.
HERMAN: Sure. It was major for the defense, because at that time, Grogan had come in, he had done devastating work with his testimony, and he was believed, he was honest and the jury was embracing him and then Geragos, like he has done with virtually every single prosecution witness, has gone up there, and has basically unscrewed the testimony. He got Grogan, the lead detective, like Brocchini, another outright liar, that Grogan basically lied to the jury.
In his own notes, Scott called him on a virtual daily basis for the first 12 days. He lied to the jury; he misrepresented Scott to the jury. And in a case where the prosecution is seeking the death penalty, the jurors hold the police and the detectives to extremely high standard, and when that standard has been undermined, they don't believe him, and they can't possibly convict him.
KOPPEL: How can something like that happen? I mean surely the prosecution must have sat down with Grogan and asked him how many times Scott Peterson called. How could they make such a big mistake?
HERMAN: Well...
FRIEDMAN: No, no, I think the issue was I think they were prepared. I think there's a police mentality. But you know what not withstanding the detective's behavior, we're at the end of the line for the prosecution and here is the test. If Richard is right, and the state has failed to make its case beyond a reasonable doubt, we are going to see motions by Mark Geragos to have the case thrown out at the end of this prosecution, and you know what? That motion is going to be denied, and Geragos is going to have to put his defense on.
HERMAN: Well, Andrew, the motion will be denied or reserved decision by the judge but we have seen the defense case. We've seen it in the cross-examinations of all of these prosecution witnesses.
FRIEDMAN: That's right.
HERMAN: What the defense will do is, it will be a battle of the experts. They'll put on experts who will now destroy all of the prosecution experts, create further reasonable doubt, and we're looking at a hung jury here. KOPPEL: On that point, on that point, hydrologist Ralph Chung's testimony came up this week. First of all, what is a hydrologist, and why is his testimony important?
FRIEDMAN: The hydrologist is important, Andrea, because he is going to deal with the properties of water and how the water moves. He started his testimony on Friday. The prosecution is going to end their prosecution with his expert conclusion, and it will be on Monday, that, if hypothetically, the bodies were put in the water in December of 2002, could it be that they would have washed up on shore when they did? His answer to that question will be, absolutely.
KOPPEL: Mr. Herman, why don't close this out here.
HERMAN: Isn't that preposterous, they're going to put this guy up here and make him testify that the bodies washed up exactly where he should have if Scott dropped them where he was boating. You know the defense is going to put a guy up there he is going to say the opposite; he is going to say it is like reading tealeaves. You can't possibly predict it with that degree of accuracy. It's outrageous.
KOPPEL: Richard Herman, Avery Friedman, I think we got a little grist for the mill here and we'll be continuing this as the case goes on, at least for the next couple of weeks. Thank you both.
FRIEDMAN: We will see you soon. Take care.
HERMAN: See you soon Andrea.
KOPPEL: Well forget asphalt. The House has learned how to pave with pork. Up next find out why a bill needed to fix your area highways is being sent to the cutting board.
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KOPPEL: News across America now. Newly unsealed transcripts in the Kobe Bryant case are out. Including police interviews with Bryant and his accuser. According to the documents, the woman told investigators Bryant repeatedly ignored her request to stop their sexual encounter. Criminal charges against Bryant were dropped last month.
More fallout from four hurricanes, which raked across Florida. NASA says it must delay plans to re-launch the space shuttle from March or April to May or July. Storms closed Kennedy Space Center for a total of nine days, and damaged some facilities but no spacecraft or hardware.
Promising news for a rare species of whale. North pacific right whales may not be going extinct after all. Scientists have spotted twice as many right whales in the baring sea as previously seen giving them hope of a comeback.
There's an old proverb that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But during an election year, Americans may find out that lawmakers are trying to pave the bad roads in their area with government pork. CNN's Louise Schiavone squeals on some of the worst offenders.
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LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Bad roads, scary bridges. If you're driving over them, it's distressing, but if you're a congressman in Washington, it looks like an opportunity to bring home some bacon, and do some good.
REP. PETER DEFAZIO, (D) OREGON: We could begin to deal with 161,000 bridges in this country that are structurally deficient. One in four, my own little state has a $4.7 billion bridge problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are 17 bridges just in my district alone that are currently in critical condition.
SCHIAVONE: But every district has problems, and the transportation bill has ballooned dramatically. House members have stuffed 3,200 special projects into a nearly $300 billion six-year spending plan. The measure collapsed of its own weight with the Senate and the White House refusing to swallow all that pork.
ERICH ZIMMERMAN, TAXPAYERS FOR COMMON SENSE: There's perhaps some sanity taking over an Capitol Hill that says we just can't be passing a bill with billions of dollars of pork stuffed into it.
SCHIAVONE: And in typical Washington fashion, the more powerful the member, the more plentiful the pork. For example, with his hands on the purse strings, Don Young was down for $590 million in highway bill pork. Speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert was looking at a possible $161 million. And top house Democrat Nancy Pelosi was expecting $120 million.
BRIAN HEIDL, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The dominant perception in Washington is that which ever side spends the most money will win re- election in November. As a result, we have a bipartisan bidding war between the Republicans and Democrats.
SCHIAVONE: It looks like Congress is going to have to trim its bill back before the president is willing to sign it. That means cutting roughly $50 billion worth of road and bridge repairs that some lawmakers may have already promised.
Louise Schiavone, CNN Financial News, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: It is a common playground taunt. "Finders, keepers, losers weepers." And if these middle school students had followed that saying, they could have been $20,000 richer. You're going to want to get the kids around the TV for this one, but they didn't. I'll ask why they decided to return Yankee playoff tickets to their rightful owner next.
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KOPPEL: An 84-year-old record has fallen in major league baseball. Ichiro Suzuki of the Seattle Mariner's has taken the title of most hits in a single season, 259, that's two more than the previous record. Suzuki says it's a big relief to get the record behind him, calling it the highlight of his career.
And a scuffle over Barry Bonds' 700th home run ball is over. Giants fan Steve Williams had been sued by another fan who claimed that he had had his mitts on the historic baseball, but a judge said there was no evidence to support that claim. Williams can now sell the ball if he wants. It has been valued at more than $100,000.
Major league baseball doesn't always bring out people's best behavior. We've seen adults scuffle over fly balls and players bonk unruly fans with chairs, but some young baseball fans in New Jersey have just raised the bar, after finding a valuable box of tickets and turning them in. One of these sterling young men is Chris Osmun; he joins us from New York with a story that would make any parent proud. Chris, you're 12 years old.
CHRIS OSMUN, RETURNED LOST YANKEE TICKETS: Yes.
KOPPEL: Hi.
OSMUN: Hello.
KOPPEL: How are you?
OSMUN: Good.
KOPPEL: Tell us what happened and how you found these tickets.
OSMUN: Um, I found these tickets when I was walking home after school to get a snack at 7-eleven, and a couple of my friends had gotten tickets before me, and they had, like three or four sheets of these World Series Yankee tickets that were, like $331 apiece. So one of my friends and I went back to see if there were any more, and we found two ripped up or a couple ripped up tickets, and two that were still together.
KOPPEL: And did you have any idea how much the tickets were worth when you found them?
OSMUN: We had a little bit of an idea, but we didn't have much.
KOPPEL: And now, you just decided on the spur of the moment, hey, we're going to give these tickets back, or did you think about keeping them? I know you're a big Yankees fan.
OSMUN: Um -- well, we -- um, for a second, there was the thought that we had these World Series Yankee tickets, but, um, that -- for that split second, that was all. But, um, then we thought that, if we had just spent thousands of dollars on World Series tickets, we would want to know what happened to them.
KOPPEL: Now where did you learn that lesson? Is this something that your parents taught you or how did you learn it? OSMUN: Well, my mom has always, like done the right thing, and things like that, and I've tried to sneak, like a couple candy bars past her a couple of times, but she's always, like, "you got to put, like you got to do the right thing and you got to be nice and think about what the person who, like you stole from or whatever, would think about."
KOPPEL: And you got an unexpected treat, you and your friends.
OSMUN: Yes. We got to go to the Yankee game, where Bernie Williams hit the home run to clinch the playoffs.
KOPPEL: Well, that must have been a lot of fun. Chris, if there are any kids watching us now, what would you want to tell them?
OSMUN: I would want to tell them that, like honesty really does pay off, because at first, we weren't expecting anything at all, and now we get, like Yankee tickets, and Nets tickets, and it's been really awesome, cool.
KOPPEL: Chris, you are a really neat kid. You're only 12 years old, and I think you've taught all of us a really valuable lesson. Thank you so much for coming in.
OSMUN: Thank you.
KOPPEL: There is much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. At the top of the hour, it's "Next@CNN." Then at 4:00, "CNN Live Saturday" big changes are coming to America's airline industry. Find out what those changes will mean to you. Then at 5:00, "People in the News" profiles the number two men on the vice presidential ticket, Vice President Dick Cheney and Senator John Edwards.
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