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CNN Live Saturday

Afghanistan Holds Elections Today; Analysts Fact Check Yesterday's Presidential Debate

Aired October 09, 2004 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SATURDAY: Well you seen the presidential debate now we do a fact check. Who was right and who was wrong? Or were their answers somewhere in between. Does the answer to the election lie somewhere within these blue and yellow lines. Our focus group votes with hand held devises their opinions just might surprise you.
And later the first five pounds are the hardest. We'll ask our doctor how to make those extra pounds go away and stay away.

Hello, and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY, I am Fredricka Whitfield. First a look at our top story.

Afghanistan's president Hamid Karzais says today's elections were fair and legitimate, that despite complaints from opposition candidates who insist the election has been marred by fraud. Millions of afghan voters went to the polls in this -- that country's first Democratic election.

Iraq's interim government and followers of Shiite Cleric Muqtada Al Sadr say they have reached an agreement that could bring calm to Baghdad's embattled Sadr City. The plan involves Al Sadr's fighters handing over medium and heavy weapons during a five-day grace periods that starts on Monday. U.S. and Iraqi forces have battled the rebels for weeks now.

U.S. officials have told CNN they believe British hostage Kenneth Bigley was behead after an escape attempt. Bigley was kidnapped from Baghdad along with two Americans last month. News of Bigley's death came yesterday. His American colleagues were beheaded prior to his death. Today, Bigley's wife begged for privacy as she mourns the death of her husband.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KHUN SOMBAT BIGLEY, BIGLEY'S WIDOW (translator): No words can express the agony I feel for the loss of my husband, Ken. He was a good man and a loving, caring husband. He went to Iraq to help the Iraqi people. I would like to give my deepest thanks to those of you who have prayed for Ken, and our family from all religious backgrounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: More on those stories in a moment. But first, we begin this hour with a battle for the White House. President Bush is back on the campaign trail today, fresh from last night's debate. He's in Minnesota at this hour, slamming his opponent John Kerry's record again. Our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president.

(BEGIN VEDIOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the U.S: He can run, but he cannot hide.

SUSANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A new campaign line with a distinctly familiar ring, once a warning often directed at Osama Bin Laden and the terrorists, now at his opponent Senator John Kerry.

BUSH: Several of the statements last night simply don't pass the credibility test. With a straight face, he said, "I have only had one position on Iraq." I can barely contain myself. He must think we've been on another planet. And he tries to tell us he's had only had one position. He can run, but he cannot hide.

MALVEAUX: Hide from his 20-year voting record in the Senate, that is. Heading into the final weeks of the campaign, the president's strategy is to use Kerry's record to portray him as someone who will say one thing, but do another.

BUSH: And then Senator Kerry was asked to look into the camera. And promise he would not raise taxes for anyone who earns less than $200,000 a year. The problem is, to keep that promise; he would have to break almost all of his other ones.

MALVEAUX: At the same time, the president is the playing up his own economic policies, in preparation for Wednesday's final debate, which will focus on domestic issues like employment.

BUSH: I've got a plan to keep our economy moving forward, to make sure jobs are here. To make sure people can find work. America must be the best place in the world to do business.

MALVEAUX (on camera): And another key part of his strategy, of course, is to deliver his message in states that he barely lost back in 2000. Including Iowa, here in Minnesota, New Mexico, as well as Oregon. Fred.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And, Suzanne, his camp has described him as being very poised, very in control, and commanding during last night's debate. Quite different language from what we heard after the first debate. Do we have any sense of how the camp is planning to prepare President Bush for a debate number three now?

MALVEAUX: Well, they're very pleased with the performance of the president last night. They really believe that he's now back in the game. There was some concern about that before. But looking ahead to Wednesday's debate, what they are going to do is use Kerry's own record and his words against him. They are going to take the 20 years that he has on the Senate. They're going to pick apart his legislative history and say look he says one thing and then he does another. Their goal here in the next couple of days, the next couple of weeks is try to paint Kerry as someone who is not credible, someone who is not trustworthy and therefore not fit to be president. Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Suzanne Malveaux thanks so much.

Well, Kerry's making his second stop in a week in the battleground state of Ohio today. He's wasting no time claiming victory in last night's debate. Our Frank Buckley brings us the latest from the Kerry campaign.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Senator John Kerry today campaigned in the battleground state of Ohio. The Senator appearing at an outdoor rally in concert. Thousands of supporters coming out. Kerry's campaign meanwhile is pleased with the Senator's performance in last night's debate.

Kerry advisers believe that Mr. Kerry was able to successfully put President Bush on the defensive about a number of issues. While Kerry simultaneously scored points for himself among voters on domestic issues and on personal traits, like, like likeability. Kerry characterized the debate as a win for him.

SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESDENTIAL CANIDATE: So you watch that debate last night? Two now and we're moving on to the third and I look forward to it. I was a little worried at one point. I thought the president was going to attack Charlie Gibson.

BUCKLEY: Kerry's strategists say that in the days ahead, Senator Kerry will focus on domestic issues, but Iraq and the president's handling of the war in Iraq will remain as a reoccurring theme.

KERRY: We need a president who knows how to get those people in there. I will do that, that's my four-point plan, and I ask you to compare it to George Bush's four-word plan, more of the same. We need a president who leads America forward and gets us out of this mess and gets our troops home where they belong.

BUCKLEY: Later today, Senator Kerry travels to Florida where he'll be campaigning. And then looking ahead, he'll be repeating a strategy he used to prepare for the first two presidential debates, as he prepares for the third and last presidential debate coming up on Wednesday.

The first time he prepared in the battleground state of Wisconsin. Then he moved to Colorado. This time, he'll be preparing for the debate in New Mexico.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Alleria, Ohio.

WHITFIELD: From capturing Al Qaeda to jobless rates, to No Child Left Behind. Both candidates tossed out a lot of facts and figures during the debate. We're going to do a little fact checking of our own right now, with "Newsweek's" magazine Marcus Mabry in New York. Marcus, let's begin with or start this issue rather, of the capturing of Al Qaeda. The president said this exactly last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I've vowed to our countrymen that I would do everything I could to protect the American people. That's why we're bringing Al Qaeda it justice, 75 percent of them have been brought to justice. That's why I said to Afghanistan if you harbor a terrorist, you are just as guilty as the terrorists. And the Taliban is no longer in power and Al Qaeda no longer has a place to plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So Marcus when the president said 75 percent of al Qaeda has been captured, he didn't completely get that right, did he?

MARCUS MABRY, "NEWSWEEK" MAGAZINE: No, he didn't Fredricka. The president was wrong. In fact the 75 percent actually corresponds to the number of known al Qaeda leaders who have been captured. And when I say known al Qaeda leaders, I mean known as of September 11, 2001.

Of course we don't actually know if we knew all of the al Qaeda leaders at that time. But of course, the president was wrong when he said 75 percent of Al Qaeda has been captured. Seventy five percent of known leaders as of September 11th, 2001, had been captured. We don't know if they've been replaced all, most, or even more had been replaced in the leadership of Al Qaeda. And we frankly don't know how many members of Al Qaeda there are.

WHITFIELD: And on the issue of jobs, Kerry and Bush each underscored their views this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: The president has presided over the economy we've lost 1.6 million jobs. First president in 72 years to lose jobs. After 9/11, after the recession had ended, the president had asked for another tax cut, and promised 5.6 million jobs would be created. He lost 1.6 million, ladies and gentlemen.

BUSH: We found out today that over the past 13 month, we've added 1.9 million new jobs in the last 13 months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, well, Kerry puts it as 1.6 million jobs that have been lost. You heard Bush say, 1.9 million jobs, gained over the past 13 months. Can they both be right?

MABRY: Well, actually, Fredricka, you may be surprised to hear that, yes, they could both be right. And if they are both right that means that they're also both wrong. Let me explain for you. What that means is when Kerry is talking about 1.6 million jobs lost; he's only talking about private sector jobs. The irony somewhat for a Republican president who claims to love small government is that actually jobs have been added just in the government in the public sector.

So, Kerry's wrong he's over emphasizing when he talks about 1. -- that number of jobs lost. When the president talks about 1.9 million jobs added, the president's not talking about how many jobs -- that's not net. So kind of like, he's not counting it at all the number of jobs lost over his administration. In fact, if we look at the statistics from the government itself, the statistics that the economists rely on, more than 800,000 jobs net had been lost since the president has been in office.

We expect the Bureau of Labor Statistics when they do their revisions to revise that down to about 600,000 jobs have been lost, net, during the president's administration. But Kerry was right when he said that in all likelihood by the end of this president's first administration, he will be the first president since Herbert Hoover in more than 70 years to actually have a net loss of jobs.

WHITFIELD: All right, education was another issue that they touched on. Kerry lambasted Bush for, in his word, not funding the No Child Left Behind Act. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: Names, you pull out of the sky, slap it onto something like No Child Left Behind but you leave millions of children behind. Here they are leaving the skies and the environment behind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And very quickly, President Bush said that's not true. He has not ignored No Child Left Behind, well, exactly how does it, go Marcus?

MABRY: Kerry was wrong, Fredricka. Kerry was wrong. It's not true that No Child Left Behind has been funded. In fact, under this administration, education funding has gone up tremendously. So that was wrong.

WHITFIELD: As a whole?

MABRY: As a whole.

WHITFIELD: But specific to No Child Left Behind, that's where it gets a little wobbly, right?

MABRY: That's where it gets more complicated. The fact is Congress has appropriated $28 million dollars more than this president has spent. This president has not spent as much as Congress has authorized him to spend for No Child Left Behind. He's not fully funded, as they would say in Washington, No Child Left Behind and lots of school districts will tell you, they need more money.

However much it has gone up, they need more money still, but Kerry technically when he said No Child Left Behind has not been funded was technically wrong. WHITFIELD: So now you are among a core of fact checkers following these debates as of recent. Given that so much of this is being corrected or underscored as to what is fact or fiction among the candidates, do we anticipate that now leading into debate number three that perhaps both camps may be a bit more careful about how they structure their sentences, about the types of comments they're trying to make or points they're trying to make?

MABRY: Not to be flipping about, it Fredricka, but in our dreams, no. That's not going to happen. Frankly, complicated answers. This I think has been one of John Kerry's issues throughout this campaign. Complicated answers don't make good sound bites. Exaggerating number, using the highest numbers or taking specific information from certain studies that may not be widely accepted, but support your point of view that is called politics and it's going to continue.

Fortunately, we'll all still be here watching what candidates say and hopefully telling the American people when they are wrong and I hope the American people will actually look at both the television coverage and the print coverage and go to factcheck.org and see exactly how things match up to what candidates say.

WHITFIELD: Wasn't there a point that most voters thought that perhaps they could trust the words, be able to discern what is truthful from a live debate versus the ads, and now it seems like the waters have been muddied that perhaps the ads may not be any differently from these live debates.

MABRY: Well, I think what we have to say is I do think that when the two men are actually speaking in front of a huge percentage of the American population, rarely are we hearing both these lies. We're getting exaggerations, we are hearing shadings of the truth on both sides of this, but I think the ads are a total different order of magnitude. The ads are often completely deceitful and downright lies.

WHITFIELD: All right Marcus Mabry of "Newsweek" magazine. Thanks so much for joining us.

MABRY: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: And I am sure we'll be talking to you again after debate number three scheduled for Wednesday.

Well, we're not finished with politics. Strategists from both parties join us next to tell us who they think won the debate. We think they'll probably have a difference in opinion.

But before that, we will take a look at how our focus group viewed the debate; you might be surprised at how the woman voted versus the men. And we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: With so much riding on the outcome of the election, the stakes are high for each of the debates. Many viewed the results of the second match up between President Bush and Senator John Kerry as a virtual tie. The latest CNN/USA Today Gallup Poll echoes that, 47 percent of voters who watched the debate, thought Kerry did the better job. While 45 percent felt President Bush did.

Our Bill Hemmer watched the debate with a group of undecided voters in Ohio and brings us their reactions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): On the campus of Ohio State University, 24 mostly undecided men and women formed their own town hall meeting. Among them retired teachers and home of makers, a jeweler, a student, and a landscaper. Rating the candidates on a scale from 1 to 10 using handheld meters, the women were registered in yellow, the men in blue. The president received a significant spike when he was asked about the draft.

BUSH: We're not going to have a draft, period. The all-volunteer army works. It works particularly when we pay our troops well. It works when we make sure they've got housing, like we have done in the last military budgets.

HEMMER: Several minutes later, Senator Kerry impressed our voters when he made a promise directly to the camera.

KERRY: I am not going to raise taxes. I have a tax cut, and here's my tax cut. I raise the childcare credit by $1,000 for families to help them to be able to take care of their kids. I have a $4,000 tuition tax credit that goes to parents and kids if they're earning for themselves to be able to pay for college.

HEMMER: Throughout the 90-minute format, men in general gave Senator Kerry higher marks and the women rated President Bush higher. Some say they were swayed by the candidates, others though still needed to hear more.

JON MORRIS, EMOTIONAL RESPONSE MEDELING: We find that the people are very, very either negative against Bush, or very positive for Bush. On the other hand, with Kerry, we find about four different distinct groups. People who are positive, some of a little less excited about him. Some people are negative about him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there giving Bush stuck with what he said he was going to do. What his message has been all along, and I think Kerry, again was on a negative attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looked straight up and lied to the American people tonight, like he did on the war and terrorism.

HEMMER: In the end 11 in our group said Senator Kerry won this debate, 11 said President Bush won. And two said it was a tie. A sample that mirrors the tight race across the nation. Bill Hemmer, CNN, Columbus, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE) WHITFIELD: With two debates down and one to go, the race is in a dead heat. I want to talk about debate strategy with my guest in Washington, Tara Setmayer is a Republican strategists and Jenniy Backus is one for the Democrats. What did you think of last night's town hall format? All right. Let's ask our strategists right now. Well, Jenny, let's begin with you.

JENNY BACKUS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Sure.

WHITFIELD: Was this town hall format perhaps to the advantage of one candidate or the other, in your view?

BACKUS: Well, actually it was pretty surprising, Fredricka. When we went into this debate a lot of people thought this would be George Bush's home turf. He's been doing a lot of events around the country called "Ask President Bush." he's got more of a folksy demeanor at least that is what people think and people were not really ready to see how well John Kerry did in it.

I think what happened last night was that George Bush, -- something was under his skin. Something that was bothering him. He had a lot of anger and unlike what he has been doing on the stomp, which is mostly handpicked Republican audiences George Bush doesn't really know what to do when someone sort of directly challenges him.

And I think inside this format, you didn't see that President Bush with the one-liners that everybody automatically claps for. You saw President Bush being faced with realities of his record and Kerry actually came across more likable and that's sort of been a steady pattern inside of these debates.

It's funny everybody -- Bush spent a $100 million trying to make Kerry into a demon, into a bad guy. When the American voters see who John Kerry really is, he's a stand up guy who giving them straight answers.

WHITFIELD: And Tara it really does seem like both candidates, though benefited from this town hall setting, because both of them were able to be a little bit more relaxed, and the walking certainly helps do that. Neither one of them looked awkward, did they?

TARA SETMAYER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: No. And we all know that President Bush thrives in environments like these. He's a people person. Polls have shown his likeability has been consistently high. He can connect with the average American citizen a lot easier than a liberal elitist from Massachusetts like John Kerry, who it was a chuckle when he pronounced -- when Bush pronounced Missouri as Missouri, that is how they pronounce it in Missouri you know and he was criticized for that.

But besides that Bush did not come across angry he came across passionate. It's important to understand the distinction. This is a president who is faced with making tough decisions everyday that affects the lives of the American people, of our soldier's abroad and he's passionate about these issues. Coming from someone that's so inconsistent... WHITFIELD: Tara, I am wondering if President Bush came across a bit too comfortable, particularly when he challenged the moderator Charlie Gibson at one point, when he insisted on being able to respond to the whole going it alone issue on Iraq. In fact, let's look at that tape real quick again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I have to answer this.

CHARLIE GIBSON: Exactly, and with reservists being held on duty.

BUSH: No, let me answer this. You tell Tony Blair we're going alone. Tell Tony Blair we're going alone. Tell Silvio Berlusconi we're going alone. Tell Alexander Kwasniewski of Poland we're going alone. We got thirty countries there, it denigrates an alliance to say we are going alone to discount their sacrifices. You cannot lead an alliance if you say you are going alone. And people listen. They're sacrificing with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Well Tara, would you see that as some interpreting him as coming across a bit angry and agitated there when all seemed to be going along so calmly, what happened?

SETMAYER: Sure. And of course, the president, again, is known as a passionate guy. He speaks from his heart and in a situation like this, yes, he should have -- he should have controlled his reaction a little better than that, but he's trying to emphasize the point here that John Kerry has flip-flopped on. He wants allies to come into the fray, but yet he denigrates the coalitions that we have.

WHITFIELD: All right Jenny how did you see it?

SETMAYER: Contribution of England.

WHITFIELD: Jenny what happened?

BACKUS: What happened there are that you saw the president whining. You saw him look petulant. You saw him not looking steady and that's really the underlying question of this election. George Bush and his allies have spent millions of dollars smearing John Kerry's record and trying to make people think he was not a good commander in chief.

John Kerry has steadily and surely inside of these debates proven his commander in chief credentials and George Bush is the one that's looked shaky. George Bush is the one that looks like he could fly off of the handle every minute. George Bush is the one who sounds like he is whining.

SETMAYER: Whining?

BACKUS: Absolutely. Did you hear him in that? Did you hear him in that tape? WHITFIELD: So ladies clarify this, so many analysts going into these debates said, you know what, these debates are not pivotal in the election, the outcome of the election. But with 13 percent, according to some polls of voters undecided, certainly it seems that these debates just might help seal the deal one way over the other for the candidates, Tara?

SETMAYER: Well, and this is true. We're catering -- these debates are catering to a much smaller audience of undecideds. And I think the American people would rather have a president who was consistent, that is aggressive on the war on terror, that does not want to have a global test with the world or popularity contest with Europe, and President Bush has made that clear.

He's also -- there are two key points here that President Bush needed to put forth in this debate, which he did. Number one, he pointed out that Kerry's record is one of a liberal Senator from Massachusetts and he cannot run from that record. And two, that the president is more aggressive on the war on terror.

WHITFIELD: All right. Tara, we are running out of time, but I want to ask you, Jenny, one more thing to before we do completely run out of time and hopefully, I will get Tara your response on it as well. What about the likability factor in terms of both of the candidates conceding to there are some likeable qualities about each of them?

It seems like it's a cardinal sin among the candidates to show in and way that they actually agree with what their opponent is having to say, or agree with the body language used. We did see a moment where they were all kind of laughing when Kerry made a point about there will be no tax -- there will be tax breaks for everyone in this room except for you, Charlie, President Bush, and me. But then quickly, it seemed like the president was on the attack.

BACKUS: Right. And I think actually that's what is to my point earlier; that I think John Kerry is winning the likeability contest. Which is very much a surprise. He's taken the time out of all of these debates to be gracious to the president. He's admitted where he's agreed with him. He's respectfully disagreed with him in other places and I totally disagree with what Tara just said earlier.

John Kerry's coming across as a strong, steady leader who appeals to the values of everyone in this country. John Kerry's record came out last night and it came out in a way, a lot of people didn't know. People don't know he's a catholic.

WHITFIELD: And Tara...

BACKUS: People don't know he's a budget balancer.

WHITFIELD: And Tara you got five seconds.

SETMAYER: John Kerry has been practicing to be president his entire life and just because to come across as a cool debater, doesn't mean that he is qualified to be president of the United States and I think the American people will make that the decision.

WHITFIELD: All right let that be the last word. Tara Setmayer and Jenny Backus thanks so much strategists, for both Republican and Democratic parties. Appreciate it.

BACKUS: Thanks Fredricka.

SETMAYER: You are welcome.

WHITFIELD: Well, another election that is being closely watched in Afghanistan. Well apparently the polls now are closed after the first Democratic election to take place there, but not however without controversy. Up next, CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour helps answer some questions of election fraud.

And then, the view from Haiti. Three weeks after tropical storm Jeanne.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: In Afghanistan, the first ever-direct presidential election is tainted by allegations of fraud. CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The day dawned on a sight Afghanistan has never before seen, at this one polling station alone, thousands of men lining up to cast their first vote for president. And in separate lines, the women vastly outnumbered, but nevertheless there.

I never thought I'd have the right to vote, says Iodone (ph). But you see, we left our children and our chores at home and came to elect our president. Inside a small boy helps his blind old grandmother to the booth. She gets a hand dipping her thumb in ink to prevent fraud. But a couple of hours later, this ink brought the whole process to a halt. Agents of opposition candidates declared, it easily washed off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cast my vote but the ink was removable.

AMANPOUR: And for the rest of the day the voting was thrown into turmoil. A flat-jacketed U.N. worker brought a fresh batch of ink, but by now, opposition candidates, many of them unpopular form of war lords had banded together, telling the press, they wanted fresh elections and that a victory by front-runner, transitional president Hamid Karzai would not be legitimate. And they issued threats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead and run this country. Why don't obey him? If he doesn't obey him, the whole nation doesn't obey him, how can he run the government?

AMANPOUR (on camera): By early afternoon, U.N. organizers were in crisis talks with the opposition candidates, trying as one official told us to save the day. Meantime, these women and thousands of men kept lining up, eager to vote, not knowing whether their first-ever election would be a success or would end up being disputed.

In the end, the U.N. declared the voting would proceed and concerns would be addressed later. They said, turnout was high nationwide, which itself presented another problem. I came this morning and they told us the ink was fake. Go home. So I came back again, two hours ago, I left my two children at home, and now they say they've run out of ballot papers. But on this day, all sorts of feelings bubbled over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm so happy. I mean, I should say I'm very, very happy, because now I'm sure we will have a good government and a future.

AMANPOUR (voice over): And the threat of violence that kept international observers away, never materialized. Besides, it was never going to keep the voters away.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Carbula Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Other stories now in the news. U.S. officials tell CNN that British hostage Ken Bigley was killed after he tried to escape. They also say, other people possibly some of his captors who helped him try to get away, may have also been killed. The Associated Press cites a man who says Bigley eluded his 10 guards on Thursday, and that he was found the next morning in a deserted area carrying a gun. His grieving widow spoke out today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KHUN SOMBAT BIGLEY, BIGLEY'S WIDOW (translator): No words can express the agony I feel for the loss of my husband Ken. He was a good man and a loving, caring husband. He went to Iraq to help the Iraqi people. I would like to give my deepest thanks to those of you have prayed for Ken and our family from all religious backgrounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: An unusual get-together at a rare location, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld met 18 of his counterparts on an American aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf. They discussed the war on terror and Iraq. And in a cramped war room below the deck. Rumsfeld then heads to Europe for a NATO meeting.

And in Gaza, separate Israeli attacks left eight Palestinians dead today. Now in its 10th day, Israel's massive military operations claimed the lives of almost 90 Palestinians. Israel says the aim is to stop Palestinian militants from firing rockets in to Israel.

Three weeks later, Haiti is still struggling to recover from tropical storm Jeanne. Tens of thousands of people are hungry and homeless. Miami "Herald" photographer Carl Juste was born in Haiti. He returned for two weeks to document the aftermath of the floods, and this is his take on the tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL JUSTE, PHOTOGRAPHER, MIAMI "HERALD:" I was born in Haiti. As photographers, we have to be close. We have to be really there. Being Haitian doesn't it make it more personal, it just lingers longer than most stories? The hurricane never really hit the island; it was more the rain showers and the band showers that covered the island. That would typically have been the street. The water had nowhere to go and people had to continue to live their lives and for some, they had to leave the city and the only way you can is by foot.

This one woman was trying to salvage her belongings in her home, and her foot was severed by a piece of metal. You had to understand, this water, they're standing in -- has bacteria and it's highly contaminated, so the urgency of getting her medical care was very important. Even when you speak to someone who's lost four members of their family or even five, there is not this on pour of emotion of restrain, because they pull from the strength.

They're survivors just by nature. They're very strong people. On the outskirts of Gonaes (ph), there was a small farming village and as we were crossing this field, this woman was adamant about me seeing her home. When we got to her home, her home was completely destroyed. I framed her within the doorway of her neighbor's home, and she was standing where her house once stood. She also lost three of her own children. This woman was telling me she lost a 21-year-old son.

Apparently, she was trying to save the young boy, which you see sitting next to her. And as she's trying to save the young boy, her 21-year-old son was in the water, and was trying to grab onto a tree, but slipped and the water just took him down stream. She was not able to save him. But was able to save the younger child. That hospital's, its kind a makeshift hospital set up by relief workers. We have heard that 22 children were born at this makeshift hospital.

And were able to witness two. Unfortunately, the umbilical cord surrounded the offspring's neck and the doctor delivered the child and without any reservation, proceeded to revive the child. He knew that the child was not over. And he delivered a second child minutes later. That child was named Esparanza, which is the Spanish word for hope.

Suffering is suffering. What happens in one corner of the world does reverberate somewhere in another place. Let's not get too desensitized by the conditions in Haiti. We should not see them as solely as people who are used to suffering. I see Haiti as a nation that has suffered enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Now back to the battle for the White House. President Bush is back on the campaign trail today. Fresh from last night's presidential debate, he spoke at a victory rally in St. Louis earlier today and he's expected to arrive in Minnesota at this hour. We'll bring you his remarks as soon as he begins speaking. At another stop in Water-Loo, Iowa today, the president criticized his Democratic rival John Kerry over his answers during the debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Much as he tried to obscure it on issue after issue, my opponent showed why he earned the ranking of the most liberal member of the United States Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Democratic Presidential Candidate John Kerry hit the ground running today and wasted no time claiming victory in last night's debate. Kerry is campaigning in the battleground states of Ohio and Florida today. At a campaign rally in Elyria, Ohio. Kerry said he's now 2-0 and looking forward to next week's third and final debate.

He also blasted President Bush saying the president refuses to level with the American people, or admit his mistakes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: Let me ask you a simple QUESTION: estion. How can a president make life better for his countrymen and women if the president can't admit the things that every other American sees and doesn't talk honestly to the American people about what's happening?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Checking news across America now, at least 14 people were killed when a tour bus rolled over and crashed today in Arkansas. The bus departed Chicago for Mississippi casino. The accident happened earlier this morning on Interstate 55. No word yet on what exactly caused that crash.

The family of Lori Hacking plans to bury her today at a private service in Utah. Hacking's husband has allegedly confessed to killing Lori and throwing her body in the trash. After weeks of searching for Hacking's remains in the landfill, her body was found last week.

And grocery stores and pharmacies say the honor system is all they have to rely on when it comes to administering flu shot. A spokesman for Wal-Greens said, quote, we don't want to be the flu shot police, but we're letting people know the situation. The United States is in the midst of a flu vaccine shortage, and everyone who is healthy is being advised not to get a shot.

Well, if you're trying to lose weight, then you know shedding those first five pounds can often be the toughest. But according to our next guests it's easy if you just do it by numbers. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: In about an hour 15, more of CNN SATURDAY" Carol Lin is in the newsroom to give us an idea of what is on tap for 6:00 pm East Coast time. Carol.

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you Fred. Yes we are working on that serial killer story. The serial killer suspect has been captured. He had pictures of eight women in his possession and investigators do not know if these women are dead or alive. I'm going to be talking with one of the investigators.

And Fred, can you believe it? It's been 20 years since Sally Ride first went up into space? It was a big deal then for all of us women heading into careers at the time. I'm going to be talking with her on this important 20th anniversary, as well as Kathy Sullivan, who the following year then was the first woman to walk in space. Get a few tips there these ladies.

WHITFIELD: Yes I'll be taking copious notes. Thanks so much Carol.

LIN: Sure.

WHITFIELD: All right well shifting gears quite a bit. Atkins, South Beach and Weight-Watchers just a few of the popular diets Americans are on, trying to lose weight but what if losing the first five pounds is easier than you thought? One doctor believes it is as easy as making smart choices. As part of our "Living Well" series we are going to talk about that epidemic. That thousands of Americans are facing. Obesity.

Joining us live from Sacramento is Dr. Bill Lloyd. Who is a professor at the University of California Davis Medical Center, and you are already work out. So in other words, you can't lose weight without doing some kind of physical activity like that?

DR. BILL LLOYD, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA DAVIS MEDICAL CENTER: Well Fredricka, the issue with the little dumbbell is to remind you five pounds isn't much, but five pounds is awfully difficult for people to lose when they want to start a weight loss program.

WHITFIELD: Well, that first five pounds, and also the last five pounds always seems to be the most difficult. So, what's the approach that many of us need to take when trying to lose those first five pounds so we don't get so discouraged?

LLOYD: Well, if you know that 3500 calories equals a pound of fat, the trick is to shave calories everyday and not eat a lot of calories. You don't want to get involved in some kind of fanatic scheme. Simple, daily choices that will let you shave calories throughout the day.

For example, in the morning, instead of that chocolate doughnut, get a whole-wheat bagel; maybe you will have a salad for lunch, why not put a low-fat, low-calorie dressing on it? You will save yourself another 100 calories and wash it down, instead of having a sugary soda, why not get a diet soda or just drink water? Two hundred and fifty calories. Before you know it, over the course of the day, you'll have saved 300 or 400 calories. WHITFIELD: Wow and quantity makes a big difference too, because that bagel that you just held up looks pretty sizable, they are getting bigger and bigger. Maybe sometimes it means cutting the portion in half, doesn't it?

LLOYD: It does. If you cut portions in half, obviously you are going to shave calories but you will get to keep the diet that you already have. People are very averse to changing their diet to switching to pills or lotions or shakes. Eat the food you always eat, but make one smart choice, in every single meal that will let you shave 100 calories, like the ones we just saw.

And if you add activities, simple activities like walking a mile or two everyday that will compound your gains by shaving another 100 or 200 pounds. So look at, it 300, 400 calories from the food choices you make during the day, simple choices and then go for a two-mile walk after dinner, you are up 500 to 700 calories.

You will lose a pound of fat every week and that's weight that will stay off. It comes gradually, slowly, but it will stay off unlike the fad diets, which mostly are water loss, and it will come back the moment you stop.

WHITFIELD: Wow, it's amazing with just walking will do. Because so many people say you know what I don't exercise because I really don't enjoy it. I don't like it. But walking is something almost anyone can do. And it's not an issue of, you know, lifting weights, et cetera. Maybe just carry a Walkman with you or something and listen to the radio, right?

LLOYD: Start simple. And if you move your body a mile, whether you run, jog, walk, or crawl, you are going to burn 100 calories. Here's some other tips you can use to improve your chances of losing, not just those first five pounds, but also maybe many more pounds than that. The first trick of course is getting a partner. Someone in your family, maybe a spouse. But if you have one of those overweight teens, they make a wonderful exercise partner as well.

So take them out for walk at night as well. And be sure you track your progress. Not simply your weight, but your mood and you're clothes sizing. Give yourself visible evidence of the progress that you make from those simple choose you make through out the day. Always drink plenty of water whenever you are on a weight loss plan.

No matter what program you are on, you need to continue to drink water. And don't hesitate to reward yourself. I'm not saying with a giant pepperoni pizza, but reward yourself with new clothes or maybe a new car if you are time affords it if you reach your goals.

WHITFIELD: Wow, that's a big reward! And, have realistic expectations I guess, too. Really, you don't want to try and do too much, otherwise you feel so disappointed and discouraged that you might get off the habit of trying to eat healthier or exercise.

LLOYD: You're right. Everyone expects the weight's going to fall off right away and they're going to be on the cover of "People" magazine. You know, it didn't take two weeks for you to gain all of that weight. You are not going to get rid of it in two weeks. You have to think carefully and plan for slow, steady progress.

Hey, come on, if you can lose one pound a week, that's 50 pounds over the course of the year. And who wouldn't be eager to accept a 50- pound weight loss if they had the medical problems related to being obese?

WHITFIELD: All right, Dr. Bill Lloyd, we're all inspired now. Thanks so much.

LLOYD: Talk to you again soon, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: OK. When we come back, the case of the missing video camera. You will want to hear about this story. It does have a happy ending.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A big night on the town, turned sour when a family leaves its prized possession behind, but there's a happy ending thanks to a caring cabbie. CNN's Alina Cho explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are they doing out? What are we getting hooked up to?

MEGAN COLLINS, PATIENT: Chemo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last time.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A final chemotherapy session captured on home video. For 11-year-old Megan Collins, who's battling bone cancer, a party is next.

M. COLLINS: When the last drop comes, getting those noise makers out and going crazy!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One, two, three.

CHO: Fun and games followed by a limo ride home with her friends.

LORRAINE COLLINS: Yes, baby!

CHO: Freshest memories for a family that had been through so much.

L. COLLINS: Here she is. Survivor. We're finished.

CHO: The celebration didn't last long, the very next day, the Collins family got in a New York City cab, got out, and mistakenly left behind the family's video camera and two other cameras. Even now, Lorraine Collins has trouble talking about it.

L. COLLINS: That I possibly have left the camera in the taxi.

CHO: Houston, we have a problem?

L. COLLINS: Yes, exactly. I knew exactly where it was.

CHO: In Revendra's Shuklas (ph) cab.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It happens all of the time.

CHO: The cabbie with the conscience turned the cameras in to police without knowing the Collins family had contacted the media. The "New York Post" published a big picture and article; there was even a reward. Cabbie Shukla (ph) had no idea and didn't care. So when you found out what this was, how did you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very nice that they received it back and it was their memory.

CHO: Shukla (ph) even met up with the Collins family as their possessions and memories were returned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With your camera!

CHO: As for the $5,000 reward, Mr. Shukla declined. The money will go to charity. His wish is that Megan will get better. The little girl who loves beanie babies and watching the Olson twins.

M. COLLINS: Just want to say, thank you very much for finding our video camera, and now I can watch all of the videos on it.

CHO: In the comfort of her bedroom, on the road to recovery. Alina Cho, CNN, Stockholm, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And that's all we have time for now. I'll be back after a quick break with today's top stories.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired October 9, 2004 - 16:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SATURDAY: Well you seen the presidential debate now we do a fact check. Who was right and who was wrong? Or were their answers somewhere in between. Does the answer to the election lie somewhere within these blue and yellow lines. Our focus group votes with hand held devises their opinions just might surprise you.
And later the first five pounds are the hardest. We'll ask our doctor how to make those extra pounds go away and stay away.

Hello, and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY, I am Fredricka Whitfield. First a look at our top story.

Afghanistan's president Hamid Karzais says today's elections were fair and legitimate, that despite complaints from opposition candidates who insist the election has been marred by fraud. Millions of afghan voters went to the polls in this -- that country's first Democratic election.

Iraq's interim government and followers of Shiite Cleric Muqtada Al Sadr say they have reached an agreement that could bring calm to Baghdad's embattled Sadr City. The plan involves Al Sadr's fighters handing over medium and heavy weapons during a five-day grace periods that starts on Monday. U.S. and Iraqi forces have battled the rebels for weeks now.

U.S. officials have told CNN they believe British hostage Kenneth Bigley was behead after an escape attempt. Bigley was kidnapped from Baghdad along with two Americans last month. News of Bigley's death came yesterday. His American colleagues were beheaded prior to his death. Today, Bigley's wife begged for privacy as she mourns the death of her husband.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KHUN SOMBAT BIGLEY, BIGLEY'S WIDOW (translator): No words can express the agony I feel for the loss of my husband, Ken. He was a good man and a loving, caring husband. He went to Iraq to help the Iraqi people. I would like to give my deepest thanks to those of you who have prayed for Ken, and our family from all religious backgrounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: More on those stories in a moment. But first, we begin this hour with a battle for the White House. President Bush is back on the campaign trail today, fresh from last night's debate. He's in Minnesota at this hour, slamming his opponent John Kerry's record again. Our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president.

(BEGIN VEDIOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the U.S: He can run, but he cannot hide.

SUSANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A new campaign line with a distinctly familiar ring, once a warning often directed at Osama Bin Laden and the terrorists, now at his opponent Senator John Kerry.

BUSH: Several of the statements last night simply don't pass the credibility test. With a straight face, he said, "I have only had one position on Iraq." I can barely contain myself. He must think we've been on another planet. And he tries to tell us he's had only had one position. He can run, but he cannot hide.

MALVEAUX: Hide from his 20-year voting record in the Senate, that is. Heading into the final weeks of the campaign, the president's strategy is to use Kerry's record to portray him as someone who will say one thing, but do another.

BUSH: And then Senator Kerry was asked to look into the camera. And promise he would not raise taxes for anyone who earns less than $200,000 a year. The problem is, to keep that promise; he would have to break almost all of his other ones.

MALVEAUX: At the same time, the president is the playing up his own economic policies, in preparation for Wednesday's final debate, which will focus on domestic issues like employment.

BUSH: I've got a plan to keep our economy moving forward, to make sure jobs are here. To make sure people can find work. America must be the best place in the world to do business.

MALVEAUX (on camera): And another key part of his strategy, of course, is to deliver his message in states that he barely lost back in 2000. Including Iowa, here in Minnesota, New Mexico, as well as Oregon. Fred.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And, Suzanne, his camp has described him as being very poised, very in control, and commanding during last night's debate. Quite different language from what we heard after the first debate. Do we have any sense of how the camp is planning to prepare President Bush for a debate number three now?

MALVEAUX: Well, they're very pleased with the performance of the president last night. They really believe that he's now back in the game. There was some concern about that before. But looking ahead to Wednesday's debate, what they are going to do is use Kerry's own record and his words against him. They are going to take the 20 years that he has on the Senate. They're going to pick apart his legislative history and say look he says one thing and then he does another. Their goal here in the next couple of days, the next couple of weeks is try to paint Kerry as someone who is not credible, someone who is not trustworthy and therefore not fit to be president. Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Suzanne Malveaux thanks so much.

Well, Kerry's making his second stop in a week in the battleground state of Ohio today. He's wasting no time claiming victory in last night's debate. Our Frank Buckley brings us the latest from the Kerry campaign.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Senator John Kerry today campaigned in the battleground state of Ohio. The Senator appearing at an outdoor rally in concert. Thousands of supporters coming out. Kerry's campaign meanwhile is pleased with the Senator's performance in last night's debate.

Kerry advisers believe that Mr. Kerry was able to successfully put President Bush on the defensive about a number of issues. While Kerry simultaneously scored points for himself among voters on domestic issues and on personal traits, like, like likeability. Kerry characterized the debate as a win for him.

SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MA), DEMOCRATIC PRESDENTIAL CANIDATE: So you watch that debate last night? Two now and we're moving on to the third and I look forward to it. I was a little worried at one point. I thought the president was going to attack Charlie Gibson.

BUCKLEY: Kerry's strategists say that in the days ahead, Senator Kerry will focus on domestic issues, but Iraq and the president's handling of the war in Iraq will remain as a reoccurring theme.

KERRY: We need a president who knows how to get those people in there. I will do that, that's my four-point plan, and I ask you to compare it to George Bush's four-word plan, more of the same. We need a president who leads America forward and gets us out of this mess and gets our troops home where they belong.

BUCKLEY: Later today, Senator Kerry travels to Florida where he'll be campaigning. And then looking ahead, he'll be repeating a strategy he used to prepare for the first two presidential debates, as he prepares for the third and last presidential debate coming up on Wednesday.

The first time he prepared in the battleground state of Wisconsin. Then he moved to Colorado. This time, he'll be preparing for the debate in New Mexico.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Alleria, Ohio.

WHITFIELD: From capturing Al Qaeda to jobless rates, to No Child Left Behind. Both candidates tossed out a lot of facts and figures during the debate. We're going to do a little fact checking of our own right now, with "Newsweek's" magazine Marcus Mabry in New York. Marcus, let's begin with or start this issue rather, of the capturing of Al Qaeda. The president said this exactly last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I've vowed to our countrymen that I would do everything I could to protect the American people. That's why we're bringing Al Qaeda it justice, 75 percent of them have been brought to justice. That's why I said to Afghanistan if you harbor a terrorist, you are just as guilty as the terrorists. And the Taliban is no longer in power and Al Qaeda no longer has a place to plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So Marcus when the president said 75 percent of al Qaeda has been captured, he didn't completely get that right, did he?

MARCUS MABRY, "NEWSWEEK" MAGAZINE: No, he didn't Fredricka. The president was wrong. In fact the 75 percent actually corresponds to the number of known al Qaeda leaders who have been captured. And when I say known al Qaeda leaders, I mean known as of September 11, 2001.

Of course we don't actually know if we knew all of the al Qaeda leaders at that time. But of course, the president was wrong when he said 75 percent of Al Qaeda has been captured. Seventy five percent of known leaders as of September 11th, 2001, had been captured. We don't know if they've been replaced all, most, or even more had been replaced in the leadership of Al Qaeda. And we frankly don't know how many members of Al Qaeda there are.

WHITFIELD: And on the issue of jobs, Kerry and Bush each underscored their views this way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: The president has presided over the economy we've lost 1.6 million jobs. First president in 72 years to lose jobs. After 9/11, after the recession had ended, the president had asked for another tax cut, and promised 5.6 million jobs would be created. He lost 1.6 million, ladies and gentlemen.

BUSH: We found out today that over the past 13 month, we've added 1.9 million new jobs in the last 13 months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right, well, Kerry puts it as 1.6 million jobs that have been lost. You heard Bush say, 1.9 million jobs, gained over the past 13 months. Can they both be right?

MABRY: Well, actually, Fredricka, you may be surprised to hear that, yes, they could both be right. And if they are both right that means that they're also both wrong. Let me explain for you. What that means is when Kerry is talking about 1.6 million jobs lost; he's only talking about private sector jobs. The irony somewhat for a Republican president who claims to love small government is that actually jobs have been added just in the government in the public sector.

So, Kerry's wrong he's over emphasizing when he talks about 1. -- that number of jobs lost. When the president talks about 1.9 million jobs added, the president's not talking about how many jobs -- that's not net. So kind of like, he's not counting it at all the number of jobs lost over his administration. In fact, if we look at the statistics from the government itself, the statistics that the economists rely on, more than 800,000 jobs net had been lost since the president has been in office.

We expect the Bureau of Labor Statistics when they do their revisions to revise that down to about 600,000 jobs have been lost, net, during the president's administration. But Kerry was right when he said that in all likelihood by the end of this president's first administration, he will be the first president since Herbert Hoover in more than 70 years to actually have a net loss of jobs.

WHITFIELD: All right, education was another issue that they touched on. Kerry lambasted Bush for, in his word, not funding the No Child Left Behind Act. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: Names, you pull out of the sky, slap it onto something like No Child Left Behind but you leave millions of children behind. Here they are leaving the skies and the environment behind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: And very quickly, President Bush said that's not true. He has not ignored No Child Left Behind, well, exactly how does it, go Marcus?

MABRY: Kerry was wrong, Fredricka. Kerry was wrong. It's not true that No Child Left Behind has been funded. In fact, under this administration, education funding has gone up tremendously. So that was wrong.

WHITFIELD: As a whole?

MABRY: As a whole.

WHITFIELD: But specific to No Child Left Behind, that's where it gets a little wobbly, right?

MABRY: That's where it gets more complicated. The fact is Congress has appropriated $28 million dollars more than this president has spent. This president has not spent as much as Congress has authorized him to spend for No Child Left Behind. He's not fully funded, as they would say in Washington, No Child Left Behind and lots of school districts will tell you, they need more money.

However much it has gone up, they need more money still, but Kerry technically when he said No Child Left Behind has not been funded was technically wrong. WHITFIELD: So now you are among a core of fact checkers following these debates as of recent. Given that so much of this is being corrected or underscored as to what is fact or fiction among the candidates, do we anticipate that now leading into debate number three that perhaps both camps may be a bit more careful about how they structure their sentences, about the types of comments they're trying to make or points they're trying to make?

MABRY: Not to be flipping about, it Fredricka, but in our dreams, no. That's not going to happen. Frankly, complicated answers. This I think has been one of John Kerry's issues throughout this campaign. Complicated answers don't make good sound bites. Exaggerating number, using the highest numbers or taking specific information from certain studies that may not be widely accepted, but support your point of view that is called politics and it's going to continue.

Fortunately, we'll all still be here watching what candidates say and hopefully telling the American people when they are wrong and I hope the American people will actually look at both the television coverage and the print coverage and go to factcheck.org and see exactly how things match up to what candidates say.

WHITFIELD: Wasn't there a point that most voters thought that perhaps they could trust the words, be able to discern what is truthful from a live debate versus the ads, and now it seems like the waters have been muddied that perhaps the ads may not be any differently from these live debates.

MABRY: Well, I think what we have to say is I do think that when the two men are actually speaking in front of a huge percentage of the American population, rarely are we hearing both these lies. We're getting exaggerations, we are hearing shadings of the truth on both sides of this, but I think the ads are a total different order of magnitude. The ads are often completely deceitful and downright lies.

WHITFIELD: All right Marcus Mabry of "Newsweek" magazine. Thanks so much for joining us.

MABRY: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: And I am sure we'll be talking to you again after debate number three scheduled for Wednesday.

Well, we're not finished with politics. Strategists from both parties join us next to tell us who they think won the debate. We think they'll probably have a difference in opinion.

But before that, we will take a look at how our focus group viewed the debate; you might be surprised at how the woman voted versus the men. And we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: With so much riding on the outcome of the election, the stakes are high for each of the debates. Many viewed the results of the second match up between President Bush and Senator John Kerry as a virtual tie. The latest CNN/USA Today Gallup Poll echoes that, 47 percent of voters who watched the debate, thought Kerry did the better job. While 45 percent felt President Bush did.

Our Bill Hemmer watched the debate with a group of undecided voters in Ohio and brings us their reactions.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): On the campus of Ohio State University, 24 mostly undecided men and women formed their own town hall meeting. Among them retired teachers and home of makers, a jeweler, a student, and a landscaper. Rating the candidates on a scale from 1 to 10 using handheld meters, the women were registered in yellow, the men in blue. The president received a significant spike when he was asked about the draft.

BUSH: We're not going to have a draft, period. The all-volunteer army works. It works particularly when we pay our troops well. It works when we make sure they've got housing, like we have done in the last military budgets.

HEMMER: Several minutes later, Senator Kerry impressed our voters when he made a promise directly to the camera.

KERRY: I am not going to raise taxes. I have a tax cut, and here's my tax cut. I raise the childcare credit by $1,000 for families to help them to be able to take care of their kids. I have a $4,000 tuition tax credit that goes to parents and kids if they're earning for themselves to be able to pay for college.

HEMMER: Throughout the 90-minute format, men in general gave Senator Kerry higher marks and the women rated President Bush higher. Some say they were swayed by the candidates, others though still needed to hear more.

JON MORRIS, EMOTIONAL RESPONSE MEDELING: We find that the people are very, very either negative against Bush, or very positive for Bush. On the other hand, with Kerry, we find about four different distinct groups. People who are positive, some of a little less excited about him. Some people are negative about him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there giving Bush stuck with what he said he was going to do. What his message has been all along, and I think Kerry, again was on a negative attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looked straight up and lied to the American people tonight, like he did on the war and terrorism.

HEMMER: In the end 11 in our group said Senator Kerry won this debate, 11 said President Bush won. And two said it was a tie. A sample that mirrors the tight race across the nation. Bill Hemmer, CNN, Columbus, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE) WHITFIELD: With two debates down and one to go, the race is in a dead heat. I want to talk about debate strategy with my guest in Washington, Tara Setmayer is a Republican strategists and Jenniy Backus is one for the Democrats. What did you think of last night's town hall format? All right. Let's ask our strategists right now. Well, Jenny, let's begin with you.

JENNY BACKUS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Sure.

WHITFIELD: Was this town hall format perhaps to the advantage of one candidate or the other, in your view?

BACKUS: Well, actually it was pretty surprising, Fredricka. When we went into this debate a lot of people thought this would be George Bush's home turf. He's been doing a lot of events around the country called "Ask President Bush." he's got more of a folksy demeanor at least that is what people think and people were not really ready to see how well John Kerry did in it.

I think what happened last night was that George Bush, -- something was under his skin. Something that was bothering him. He had a lot of anger and unlike what he has been doing on the stomp, which is mostly handpicked Republican audiences George Bush doesn't really know what to do when someone sort of directly challenges him.

And I think inside this format, you didn't see that President Bush with the one-liners that everybody automatically claps for. You saw President Bush being faced with realities of his record and Kerry actually came across more likable and that's sort of been a steady pattern inside of these debates.

It's funny everybody -- Bush spent a $100 million trying to make Kerry into a demon, into a bad guy. When the American voters see who John Kerry really is, he's a stand up guy who giving them straight answers.

WHITFIELD: And Tara it really does seem like both candidates, though benefited from this town hall setting, because both of them were able to be a little bit more relaxed, and the walking certainly helps do that. Neither one of them looked awkward, did they?

TARA SETMAYER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: No. And we all know that President Bush thrives in environments like these. He's a people person. Polls have shown his likeability has been consistently high. He can connect with the average American citizen a lot easier than a liberal elitist from Massachusetts like John Kerry, who it was a chuckle when he pronounced -- when Bush pronounced Missouri as Missouri, that is how they pronounce it in Missouri you know and he was criticized for that.

But besides that Bush did not come across angry he came across passionate. It's important to understand the distinction. This is a president who is faced with making tough decisions everyday that affects the lives of the American people, of our soldier's abroad and he's passionate about these issues. Coming from someone that's so inconsistent... WHITFIELD: Tara, I am wondering if President Bush came across a bit too comfortable, particularly when he challenged the moderator Charlie Gibson at one point, when he insisted on being able to respond to the whole going it alone issue on Iraq. In fact, let's look at that tape real quick again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I have to answer this.

CHARLIE GIBSON: Exactly, and with reservists being held on duty.

BUSH: No, let me answer this. You tell Tony Blair we're going alone. Tell Tony Blair we're going alone. Tell Silvio Berlusconi we're going alone. Tell Alexander Kwasniewski of Poland we're going alone. We got thirty countries there, it denigrates an alliance to say we are going alone to discount their sacrifices. You cannot lead an alliance if you say you are going alone. And people listen. They're sacrificing with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Well Tara, would you see that as some interpreting him as coming across a bit angry and agitated there when all seemed to be going along so calmly, what happened?

SETMAYER: Sure. And of course, the president, again, is known as a passionate guy. He speaks from his heart and in a situation like this, yes, he should have -- he should have controlled his reaction a little better than that, but he's trying to emphasize the point here that John Kerry has flip-flopped on. He wants allies to come into the fray, but yet he denigrates the coalitions that we have.

WHITFIELD: All right Jenny how did you see it?

SETMAYER: Contribution of England.

WHITFIELD: Jenny what happened?

BACKUS: What happened there are that you saw the president whining. You saw him look petulant. You saw him not looking steady and that's really the underlying question of this election. George Bush and his allies have spent millions of dollars smearing John Kerry's record and trying to make people think he was not a good commander in chief.

John Kerry has steadily and surely inside of these debates proven his commander in chief credentials and George Bush is the one that's looked shaky. George Bush is the one that looks like he could fly off of the handle every minute. George Bush is the one who sounds like he is whining.

SETMAYER: Whining?

BACKUS: Absolutely. Did you hear him in that? Did you hear him in that tape? WHITFIELD: So ladies clarify this, so many analysts going into these debates said, you know what, these debates are not pivotal in the election, the outcome of the election. But with 13 percent, according to some polls of voters undecided, certainly it seems that these debates just might help seal the deal one way over the other for the candidates, Tara?

SETMAYER: Well, and this is true. We're catering -- these debates are catering to a much smaller audience of undecideds. And I think the American people would rather have a president who was consistent, that is aggressive on the war on terror, that does not want to have a global test with the world or popularity contest with Europe, and President Bush has made that clear.

He's also -- there are two key points here that President Bush needed to put forth in this debate, which he did. Number one, he pointed out that Kerry's record is one of a liberal Senator from Massachusetts and he cannot run from that record. And two, that the president is more aggressive on the war on terror.

WHITFIELD: All right. Tara, we are running out of time, but I want to ask you, Jenny, one more thing to before we do completely run out of time and hopefully, I will get Tara your response on it as well. What about the likability factor in terms of both of the candidates conceding to there are some likeable qualities about each of them?

It seems like it's a cardinal sin among the candidates to show in and way that they actually agree with what their opponent is having to say, or agree with the body language used. We did see a moment where they were all kind of laughing when Kerry made a point about there will be no tax -- there will be tax breaks for everyone in this room except for you, Charlie, President Bush, and me. But then quickly, it seemed like the president was on the attack.

BACKUS: Right. And I think actually that's what is to my point earlier; that I think John Kerry is winning the likeability contest. Which is very much a surprise. He's taken the time out of all of these debates to be gracious to the president. He's admitted where he's agreed with him. He's respectfully disagreed with him in other places and I totally disagree with what Tara just said earlier.

John Kerry's coming across as a strong, steady leader who appeals to the values of everyone in this country. John Kerry's record came out last night and it came out in a way, a lot of people didn't know. People don't know he's a catholic.

WHITFIELD: And Tara...

BACKUS: People don't know he's a budget balancer.

WHITFIELD: And Tara you got five seconds.

SETMAYER: John Kerry has been practicing to be president his entire life and just because to come across as a cool debater, doesn't mean that he is qualified to be president of the United States and I think the American people will make that the decision.

WHITFIELD: All right let that be the last word. Tara Setmayer and Jenny Backus thanks so much strategists, for both Republican and Democratic parties. Appreciate it.

BACKUS: Thanks Fredricka.

SETMAYER: You are welcome.

WHITFIELD: Well, another election that is being closely watched in Afghanistan. Well apparently the polls now are closed after the first Democratic election to take place there, but not however without controversy. Up next, CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour helps answer some questions of election fraud.

And then, the view from Haiti. Three weeks after tropical storm Jeanne.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: In Afghanistan, the first ever-direct presidential election is tainted by allegations of fraud. CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The day dawned on a sight Afghanistan has never before seen, at this one polling station alone, thousands of men lining up to cast their first vote for president. And in separate lines, the women vastly outnumbered, but nevertheless there.

I never thought I'd have the right to vote, says Iodone (ph). But you see, we left our children and our chores at home and came to elect our president. Inside a small boy helps his blind old grandmother to the booth. She gets a hand dipping her thumb in ink to prevent fraud. But a couple of hours later, this ink brought the whole process to a halt. Agents of opposition candidates declared, it easily washed off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cast my vote but the ink was removable.

AMANPOUR: And for the rest of the day the voting was thrown into turmoil. A flat-jacketed U.N. worker brought a fresh batch of ink, but by now, opposition candidates, many of them unpopular form of war lords had banded together, telling the press, they wanted fresh elections and that a victory by front-runner, transitional president Hamid Karzai would not be legitimate. And they issued threats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go ahead and run this country. Why don't obey him? If he doesn't obey him, the whole nation doesn't obey him, how can he run the government?

AMANPOUR (on camera): By early afternoon, U.N. organizers were in crisis talks with the opposition candidates, trying as one official told us to save the day. Meantime, these women and thousands of men kept lining up, eager to vote, not knowing whether their first-ever election would be a success or would end up being disputed.

In the end, the U.N. declared the voting would proceed and concerns would be addressed later. They said, turnout was high nationwide, which itself presented another problem. I came this morning and they told us the ink was fake. Go home. So I came back again, two hours ago, I left my two children at home, and now they say they've run out of ballot papers. But on this day, all sorts of feelings bubbled over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm so happy. I mean, I should say I'm very, very happy, because now I'm sure we will have a good government and a future.

AMANPOUR (voice over): And the threat of violence that kept international observers away, never materialized. Besides, it was never going to keep the voters away.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Carbula Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Other stories now in the news. U.S. officials tell CNN that British hostage Ken Bigley was killed after he tried to escape. They also say, other people possibly some of his captors who helped him try to get away, may have also been killed. The Associated Press cites a man who says Bigley eluded his 10 guards on Thursday, and that he was found the next morning in a deserted area carrying a gun. His grieving widow spoke out today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KHUN SOMBAT BIGLEY, BIGLEY'S WIDOW (translator): No words can express the agony I feel for the loss of my husband Ken. He was a good man and a loving, caring husband. He went to Iraq to help the Iraqi people. I would like to give my deepest thanks to those of you have prayed for Ken and our family from all religious backgrounds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: An unusual get-together at a rare location, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld met 18 of his counterparts on an American aircraft carrier in the Persian Gulf. They discussed the war on terror and Iraq. And in a cramped war room below the deck. Rumsfeld then heads to Europe for a NATO meeting.

And in Gaza, separate Israeli attacks left eight Palestinians dead today. Now in its 10th day, Israel's massive military operations claimed the lives of almost 90 Palestinians. Israel says the aim is to stop Palestinian militants from firing rockets in to Israel.

Three weeks later, Haiti is still struggling to recover from tropical storm Jeanne. Tens of thousands of people are hungry and homeless. Miami "Herald" photographer Carl Juste was born in Haiti. He returned for two weeks to document the aftermath of the floods, and this is his take on the tragedy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL JUSTE, PHOTOGRAPHER, MIAMI "HERALD:" I was born in Haiti. As photographers, we have to be close. We have to be really there. Being Haitian doesn't it make it more personal, it just lingers longer than most stories? The hurricane never really hit the island; it was more the rain showers and the band showers that covered the island. That would typically have been the street. The water had nowhere to go and people had to continue to live their lives and for some, they had to leave the city and the only way you can is by foot.

This one woman was trying to salvage her belongings in her home, and her foot was severed by a piece of metal. You had to understand, this water, they're standing in -- has bacteria and it's highly contaminated, so the urgency of getting her medical care was very important. Even when you speak to someone who's lost four members of their family or even five, there is not this on pour of emotion of restrain, because they pull from the strength.

They're survivors just by nature. They're very strong people. On the outskirts of Gonaes (ph), there was a small farming village and as we were crossing this field, this woman was adamant about me seeing her home. When we got to her home, her home was completely destroyed. I framed her within the doorway of her neighbor's home, and she was standing where her house once stood. She also lost three of her own children. This woman was telling me she lost a 21-year-old son.

Apparently, she was trying to save the young boy, which you see sitting next to her. And as she's trying to save the young boy, her 21-year-old son was in the water, and was trying to grab onto a tree, but slipped and the water just took him down stream. She was not able to save him. But was able to save the younger child. That hospital's, its kind a makeshift hospital set up by relief workers. We have heard that 22 children were born at this makeshift hospital.

And were able to witness two. Unfortunately, the umbilical cord surrounded the offspring's neck and the doctor delivered the child and without any reservation, proceeded to revive the child. He knew that the child was not over. And he delivered a second child minutes later. That child was named Esparanza, which is the Spanish word for hope.

Suffering is suffering. What happens in one corner of the world does reverberate somewhere in another place. Let's not get too desensitized by the conditions in Haiti. We should not see them as solely as people who are used to suffering. I see Haiti as a nation that has suffered enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Now back to the battle for the White House. President Bush is back on the campaign trail today. Fresh from last night's presidential debate, he spoke at a victory rally in St. Louis earlier today and he's expected to arrive in Minnesota at this hour. We'll bring you his remarks as soon as he begins speaking. At another stop in Water-Loo, Iowa today, the president criticized his Democratic rival John Kerry over his answers during the debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Much as he tried to obscure it on issue after issue, my opponent showed why he earned the ranking of the most liberal member of the United States Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Democratic Presidential Candidate John Kerry hit the ground running today and wasted no time claiming victory in last night's debate. Kerry is campaigning in the battleground states of Ohio and Florida today. At a campaign rally in Elyria, Ohio. Kerry said he's now 2-0 and looking forward to next week's third and final debate.

He also blasted President Bush saying the president refuses to level with the American people, or admit his mistakes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: Let me ask you a simple QUESTION: estion. How can a president make life better for his countrymen and women if the president can't admit the things that every other American sees and doesn't talk honestly to the American people about what's happening?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Checking news across America now, at least 14 people were killed when a tour bus rolled over and crashed today in Arkansas. The bus departed Chicago for Mississippi casino. The accident happened earlier this morning on Interstate 55. No word yet on what exactly caused that crash.

The family of Lori Hacking plans to bury her today at a private service in Utah. Hacking's husband has allegedly confessed to killing Lori and throwing her body in the trash. After weeks of searching for Hacking's remains in the landfill, her body was found last week.

And grocery stores and pharmacies say the honor system is all they have to rely on when it comes to administering flu shot. A spokesman for Wal-Greens said, quote, we don't want to be the flu shot police, but we're letting people know the situation. The United States is in the midst of a flu vaccine shortage, and everyone who is healthy is being advised not to get a shot.

Well, if you're trying to lose weight, then you know shedding those first five pounds can often be the toughest. But according to our next guests it's easy if you just do it by numbers. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: In about an hour 15, more of CNN SATURDAY" Carol Lin is in the newsroom to give us an idea of what is on tap for 6:00 pm East Coast time. Carol.

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you Fred. Yes we are working on that serial killer story. The serial killer suspect has been captured. He had pictures of eight women in his possession and investigators do not know if these women are dead or alive. I'm going to be talking with one of the investigators.

And Fred, can you believe it? It's been 20 years since Sally Ride first went up into space? It was a big deal then for all of us women heading into careers at the time. I'm going to be talking with her on this important 20th anniversary, as well as Kathy Sullivan, who the following year then was the first woman to walk in space. Get a few tips there these ladies.

WHITFIELD: Yes I'll be taking copious notes. Thanks so much Carol.

LIN: Sure.

WHITFIELD: All right well shifting gears quite a bit. Atkins, South Beach and Weight-Watchers just a few of the popular diets Americans are on, trying to lose weight but what if losing the first five pounds is easier than you thought? One doctor believes it is as easy as making smart choices. As part of our "Living Well" series we are going to talk about that epidemic. That thousands of Americans are facing. Obesity.

Joining us live from Sacramento is Dr. Bill Lloyd. Who is a professor at the University of California Davis Medical Center, and you are already work out. So in other words, you can't lose weight without doing some kind of physical activity like that?

DR. BILL LLOYD, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA DAVIS MEDICAL CENTER: Well Fredricka, the issue with the little dumbbell is to remind you five pounds isn't much, but five pounds is awfully difficult for people to lose when they want to start a weight loss program.

WHITFIELD: Well, that first five pounds, and also the last five pounds always seems to be the most difficult. So, what's the approach that many of us need to take when trying to lose those first five pounds so we don't get so discouraged?

LLOYD: Well, if you know that 3500 calories equals a pound of fat, the trick is to shave calories everyday and not eat a lot of calories. You don't want to get involved in some kind of fanatic scheme. Simple, daily choices that will let you shave calories throughout the day.

For example, in the morning, instead of that chocolate doughnut, get a whole-wheat bagel; maybe you will have a salad for lunch, why not put a low-fat, low-calorie dressing on it? You will save yourself another 100 calories and wash it down, instead of having a sugary soda, why not get a diet soda or just drink water? Two hundred and fifty calories. Before you know it, over the course of the day, you'll have saved 300 or 400 calories. WHITFIELD: Wow and quantity makes a big difference too, because that bagel that you just held up looks pretty sizable, they are getting bigger and bigger. Maybe sometimes it means cutting the portion in half, doesn't it?

LLOYD: It does. If you cut portions in half, obviously you are going to shave calories but you will get to keep the diet that you already have. People are very averse to changing their diet to switching to pills or lotions or shakes. Eat the food you always eat, but make one smart choice, in every single meal that will let you shave 100 calories, like the ones we just saw.

And if you add activities, simple activities like walking a mile or two everyday that will compound your gains by shaving another 100 or 200 pounds. So look at, it 300, 400 calories from the food choices you make during the day, simple choices and then go for a two-mile walk after dinner, you are up 500 to 700 calories.

You will lose a pound of fat every week and that's weight that will stay off. It comes gradually, slowly, but it will stay off unlike the fad diets, which mostly are water loss, and it will come back the moment you stop.

WHITFIELD: Wow, it's amazing with just walking will do. Because so many people say you know what I don't exercise because I really don't enjoy it. I don't like it. But walking is something almost anyone can do. And it's not an issue of, you know, lifting weights, et cetera. Maybe just carry a Walkman with you or something and listen to the radio, right?

LLOYD: Start simple. And if you move your body a mile, whether you run, jog, walk, or crawl, you are going to burn 100 calories. Here's some other tips you can use to improve your chances of losing, not just those first five pounds, but also maybe many more pounds than that. The first trick of course is getting a partner. Someone in your family, maybe a spouse. But if you have one of those overweight teens, they make a wonderful exercise partner as well.

So take them out for walk at night as well. And be sure you track your progress. Not simply your weight, but your mood and you're clothes sizing. Give yourself visible evidence of the progress that you make from those simple choose you make through out the day. Always drink plenty of water whenever you are on a weight loss plan.

No matter what program you are on, you need to continue to drink water. And don't hesitate to reward yourself. I'm not saying with a giant pepperoni pizza, but reward yourself with new clothes or maybe a new car if you are time affords it if you reach your goals.

WHITFIELD: Wow, that's a big reward! And, have realistic expectations I guess, too. Really, you don't want to try and do too much, otherwise you feel so disappointed and discouraged that you might get off the habit of trying to eat healthier or exercise.

LLOYD: You're right. Everyone expects the weight's going to fall off right away and they're going to be on the cover of "People" magazine. You know, it didn't take two weeks for you to gain all of that weight. You are not going to get rid of it in two weeks. You have to think carefully and plan for slow, steady progress.

Hey, come on, if you can lose one pound a week, that's 50 pounds over the course of the year. And who wouldn't be eager to accept a 50- pound weight loss if they had the medical problems related to being obese?

WHITFIELD: All right, Dr. Bill Lloyd, we're all inspired now. Thanks so much.

LLOYD: Talk to you again soon, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: OK. When we come back, the case of the missing video camera. You will want to hear about this story. It does have a happy ending.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A big night on the town, turned sour when a family leaves its prized possession behind, but there's a happy ending thanks to a caring cabbie. CNN's Alina Cho explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are they doing out? What are we getting hooked up to?

MEGAN COLLINS, PATIENT: Chemo.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last time.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A final chemotherapy session captured on home video. For 11-year-old Megan Collins, who's battling bone cancer, a party is next.

M. COLLINS: When the last drop comes, getting those noise makers out and going crazy!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One, two, three.

CHO: Fun and games followed by a limo ride home with her friends.

LORRAINE COLLINS: Yes, baby!

CHO: Freshest memories for a family that had been through so much.

L. COLLINS: Here she is. Survivor. We're finished.

CHO: The celebration didn't last long, the very next day, the Collins family got in a New York City cab, got out, and mistakenly left behind the family's video camera and two other cameras. Even now, Lorraine Collins has trouble talking about it.

L. COLLINS: That I possibly have left the camera in the taxi.

CHO: Houston, we have a problem?

L. COLLINS: Yes, exactly. I knew exactly where it was.

CHO: In Revendra's Shuklas (ph) cab.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It happens all of the time.

CHO: The cabbie with the conscience turned the cameras in to police without knowing the Collins family had contacted the media. The "New York Post" published a big picture and article; there was even a reward. Cabbie Shukla (ph) had no idea and didn't care. So when you found out what this was, how did you feel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very nice that they received it back and it was their memory.

CHO: Shukla (ph) even met up with the Collins family as their possessions and memories were returned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With your camera!

CHO: As for the $5,000 reward, Mr. Shukla declined. The money will go to charity. His wish is that Megan will get better. The little girl who loves beanie babies and watching the Olson twins.

M. COLLINS: Just want to say, thank you very much for finding our video camera, and now I can watch all of the videos on it.

CHO: In the comfort of her bedroom, on the road to recovery. Alina Cho, CNN, Stockholm, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And that's all we have time for now. I'll be back after a quick break with today's top stories.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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