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CNN Live Saturday

Jobs Report Worse Than Expected; Undediceds Split On Debate Performance

Aired October 09, 2004 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It is 12:00 p.m. on the East coast, 11:00 a.m. in Iowa on the presidential campaign trail, I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Ahead this hour:

The debate, the spin as the campaigns hit the road. We are live with the Bush and Kerry campaigns at political events this hour.

Also, a fact check of what the candidates said during the debate and how it squares with reality.

Later, the focus group of undecided voters and their moment by moment reaction by the debate. What statements scored well for the candidates?

But first, a look at top stories now in the news.

Election officials in Afghanistan say allegations of vote fraud will be investigated, but President Hamid Karzai calls the voting "free, fair and legitimate." Millions of voters turned out for the nation's first direct presidential election despite calls for it to be abandoned and rescheduled. A live report from Kabul in 30 minutes.

A big election victory for a strong supporter of policy in Iraq. Australian prime minister, John Howard, has won a historic fourth consecutive term in office. His conservative government returns probably with an increase majority in Parliament.

In Iraq, the interim government and forces loyal to Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, say they've reached a peace deal to restore peace in Baghdad's volatile Sadr City neighborhood. The Mehdi army is due to disarm starting Monday in an unofficial ceasefire. The Iraqi forces will then take control of the slum (SIC) area where two million people live.

Israel says at least 33 people are dead in Thursday's attack targeting Israeli tourists at resorts in Egypt. It's believed a dozen more bodies may be trapped in the rubble at the Taba Hilton. Israel says al-Qaeda is likely behind the bombings, but Egypt says it is too early to say.

We begin with the battle for the White House. President Bush and Senator John Kerry are back on the campaign trail after their spirited face-off in the "Show Me" state. In last night's debate, in Saint Louis, both men tried their best to sway undecided voters who hold the key to the oval office. CNN's Judy Woodruff gives us the highlights on the second of three presidential debates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ground first trod was familiar: Iraq. George W. Bush kept a theme accusing his challenger of blowing with the political winds.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't see how you can lead this country in a time of war, in a time of uncertainty if you change your mind because of politics.

WOODRUFF: And John Kerry charged the president rushed to war, fracturing international alliances in the process.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The world is more dangerous today. The world is more dangerous today because the president didn't make the right judgments.

WOODRUFF: Iraq consumed just over a third of the wide-ranging debate, as uncommitted voters in the town meeting posed questions on topics ranging from the environment to stem cell research. No surprise, the economy was a favorite focus, with Kerry noting the latest not-so rosy jobs figures.

KERRY: The president has presided over the economy where we've lost 1.6 million jobs. The first president in 72 years to lose jobs.

WOODRUFF: Bush panted his rival as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, full of promises he wouldn't be able to pay for without raising taxes.

BUSH: Now, he just going to break all these wonderful promises he's told you about or he's going to raise taxes.

WOODRUFF: Prompting a pledge from Kerry on middle class taxes.

KERRY: Right into the camera, yes. I am not going to raise taxes.

WOODRUFF: The format gave both men a chance to showcase their personal skills, addressing questioners by name, roaming freely around the stage.

BUSH: That answer almost made me want to scowl.

WOODRUFF: But he didn't, at least not much. He smiled a lot and winked once. The fighting words flew, but the fighting faces were not on display.

Judy Woodruff, CNN, Saint Louis.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: So, the big question today is who won last night's face-off in Saint Louis? Well, here's what some of the polls are showing this morning. In a CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll of those who watched, 47 percent of the respondents say Kerry did a better job, 45 percent say Bush did. The democrat candidate also came out on top in and "ABC News" poll, 44 to 41 percent; 13 percent say the two men tied. Both polls are within the margin of error.

With the race headed for the homestretch, time is of the essence for President Bush and Senator Kerry. At this hour, both men are holding rallies in battleground states. National correspondent, Frank Buckley, is with the campaign in Elyria, Ohio, and White House correspondent, Suzanne Malveaux is with the Bush campaign in Waterloo, Iowa.

Let's begin with you, Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well Fred, I have to tell you, all the Bush aides that I spoke with are pleased with President Bush's performance, last night. They believe he did what he had to do, that is to stop the bleeding and continue the momentum. The key here, of course, is to build on the momentum; they believe that President Bush is back in the game. The key part of this strategy is to paint Senator Kerry as being one who says one thing and does another. Specifically, they're looking to use his own record and his own words against him to show that his economic policies, his health care policies, as well as his own foreign policies, they believe, are contradictory, saying one thing, but doing another.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Several of his statements just don't pass the credibility test. With a straight face, he said, "I've only had one position on Iraq." He must think we've been on another planet. In the spring of 2003, as I order the invasion of Iraq, Senator Kerry said "it was the right decision." Now he says "it's the wrong war." And he tries to tell us he has had only one position? Who's he trying to kid? He can run, but he cannot hide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And that is the line, Fred, that we have been hearing over and over today. He is testing that new line, of course, going into the final debate Wednesday. Also talking about his domestic policies, defending his domestic policies, particularly his economic policies, in light of those disappointing new job numbers, saying the country is on the right track and to let you know, of course, what is just as important as the message is where he says it.

Important, of course, here in Iowa, this is where he lost by just 4,000 votes last time around. He heads next to Minnesota next, that is where he lost by just two-and-a-half percentage points. The key part of that strategy, of course, is to hit those states where the president just narrowly lost. He is hoping to gain ground in those states and turn this around. But, with just weeks ahead here, Fred this campaign is energized, they are pumped up. They believe that that debate performance made all the difference in the world -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Suzanne Malveaux in Waterloo, Iowa, with the president.

Now, let's go to Elyria, Ohio, where Frank Buckley is traveling with the Kerry camp -- Frank.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Fredricka. Senator Kerry set to take the stage here at a rally and concert -- outdoor rally and concert, here in Ohio, one of the 15 battleground states expected to decide this election.

Meanwhile Kerry campaign officials say they're pleased with his performance in the debate last night. Kerry advisors say that they were able to put President Bush on the defensive and advisors claim their survey data from this debate indicates that Kerry also gained some points for himself in terms of likeability and also the confidence level that voters have in Kerry's ability to lead.

Senator Kerry, meanwhile, again, here for an outdoor concert and rally. He had another one earlier -- earlier in the day, in fact, last night, in Saint Louis, immediately after the debate. Here's what he is telling his supporters about what they need to do during the next three-and-a-half weeks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: These next three-and-a-half weeks are going to be the hard hardest political work we've ever done. These next three-and-a- half weeks, they're going to throw everything, including the kitchen sink. These next three-and-a-half weeks, we're going to have to go out there and keep talking common sense, mainstream American values. Keep talking to our friends. Keep talking to people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BUCKLEY: Kerry expected to continue his focus on domestic issues leading up to the debate on Wednesday, which is going to be solely focused on domestic issues, but we're also told by a senior strategist that it may sound like stereo at times, because while they will be focusing on domestic issues, they will also talk a lot about what's going on in Iraq. They believe that both lines of criticism fold in nicely with their broader theme, which is that President Bush can't fix problems if he won't acknowledge them -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Frank Buckley in Elyria, Ohio. Thanks so very much.

Well, it's no surprise that both the Bush and Kerry campaigns are putting the positive spin on their candidate's performance last night in Saint Louis. "Newsweek's" Daniel Klaidman, he is with me now to talk more about the debate and how he saw it play out. He's the magazine's Washington bureau chief.

Good to see you, Daniel.

DANIEL KLAIDMAN, "NEWSWEEK" WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Good to be with you, Fredricka. WHITFIELD: All right, well last night, the questioning was from and for the undecided voters. Did you hear anything from either side that really would lock in a vote among those undecided voters?

KLAIDMAN: You know, it's interesting -- you know, coming out of the last debate where President Bush did not do a very good job, I think what he was trying to do was shore up his base and so he played a little bit more to the base, which means he gave them a little more red meat on social issues, on the war on terrorism.

Senator Kerry, on the other hand who did well in last week's debate, I think, was trying to reach out more to independents and swing voters and shore up his reputation as a centrist. He emphasized his -- the fact that he had voted cut the -- deal with the deficit, cut the budget, that he's a fiscal moderate or conservative, and he compared himself to Ronald Reagan and Dwit Eisenhower a couple of times. So, I think that was the strategy and, you know, this goes back and forth depending on where each candidate sees the base and the extent to which he thinks he needs to reach out to swing voters.

WHITFIELD: In many cases, last night, just as in the first debate, what was said may have been upstaged by how it was said. So, if you try to evaluate the behavior, the body language of President Bush and Candidate Kerry, what did you see that really stood out as making one over the other look more presidential, more in control?

KLAIDMAN: Well, it was a very interesting match-up in that respect. And I think both candidates did things that they needed to do. President Bush was much more energetic than he was in the first debate, and he was able to control his facial expressions. None of those scowls, there were some smiles, there was a wink. And I think what he did was he displayed a kind of a controlled passion, which I think plays well with voters. On the other hand, Senator Kerry was very poised. He was tough, he was combative, but he didn't lose control. He was restrained and poised and that makes him look presidential and makes him look like he could be plausible as a commander in chief. So, I think they both scored important points in that respect.

WHITFIELD: And despite what the polls say about who may have won during last night's debate, was it the undecided voters, those who were asking the questions, who really did score some points too, by being able to have their voices heard in this kind of format, take control of this second of three debates?

KLAIDMAN: Well, what was so interesting about the format, to me, is compared to the vice presidential debate, compared to some of the other debates, it was a much more diverse array of questions. I think that's what happens when you get a group of Americans from all walks of life together and you hear their concerns, and so, while we didn't hear much about the environment, for example, in the vice presidential debate; we didn't hear much about stem cell research in some of the other debates, all of those questions came up last night and I think that serves the American people, as they're trying to make what is a very difficult choice coming up on November 2.

WHITFIELD: All right, "Newsweek's Daniel Klaidman. Thanks so much for joining us.

KLAIDMAN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Well, if you missed last night's presidential debate in Saint Louis, stay with CNN for an encore, we're showing it again today at 2:00 p.m. Eastern. And, of course, CNN is the place to be for Wednesday night's third presidential face-off in Tempe, Arizona. Our coverage gets underway at 7:00 p.m. Eastern on Wednesday.

Well much of last night's debate focused on job issues. With the release of the Labor Department's numbers yesterday, we'll take a closer look at what the figures mean and the impact on the turbulent campaign trail.

And a different storm spinning toward Louisiana: Tropical Depression Matthew moves closer.

And, later, debate facts or fiction? Our Joe Johns has a fact check on some of the night's more provocative claims.

This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, fresh from his second presidential debate in Saint Louis last night, you see there, President Bush now in Waterloo, Iowa there. That live picture coming to us straight from Waterloo did you during one of his, of many, campaign stops before he heads on to his third presidential debate, which is scheduled for Wednesday.

Well, now a look at some stories making news across America.

Lori Hacking will be buried today in Salt Lake City. She's the young woman whose remains were found last week in a landfill. Her husband, Mark, is charged with her murder.

More than a dozen people are killed in a bus accident in Arkansas. A group of 30 relatives and friends were en route from Chicago for a gambling weekend at a Mississippi casino. The bus flipped over on an interstate near Memphis, Tennessee, crushing some passengers. No word yet on the cause of that tragedy.

In California, what's the meaning of matrimony? In a legal opinion aimed at appeasing both sides in the gay marriage debate, the state's attorney general says laws limiting marriage to a man and a woman do not violate California's constitution, but neither would a law allowing same-sex couples to marry.

Let's check in with Rob Marciano in the Weather Center with a tropical depression, so far, still brewing?

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes.

WHITFIELD: In the gulf?

(WEATHER REPORT) WHITFIELD: Thanks so much, Rob.

Well, the last monthly jobs report before the election appears weaker than Wall Street wanted and worse than the White House had hoped. The report shows that 96,000 new jobs with an unemployment rate holding steady at 5.4 percent. Here to help analyze the numbers, Rajeev Dhawan of the Georgia State University Economic Forecasting Center

Good to see you.

RAJEEV DHAWAN, GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY: Good morning.

All right, well what does this mean? We're talking about an increase in jobs, about 96,000 just for last month. What kind of jobs are we talking about?

DHAWAN: They were all types, but unfortunately we lost some high-paying jobs, in manufacturing, information technology, management of companies. We did gain the other jobs. The expansion is going on, but it's not as strong as it was between March and May, that was the golden spring, as I would call it, 290,000 jobs per month. Now we're doing just barely 100,000.

WHITFIELD: Yeah. The projection, at least the Bush administration, was hoping for 150,000 for that month, alone. However, last night we heard the president reiterate, during the debate, that these job numbers are proof of a continued employment expansion overall, over 13 months, something like two million jobs. How do we understand the disparity of these numbers?

DHAWAN: You see, the expansion is going on, as I said, but it's not as strong because the oil prices and the uncertainty about who's going to be the commander in chief, come November, is causing some trouble with the capital spending, causing the trouble with the profit margins, and the executives are pulling back, to some extent. And when that happens, you will have this trouble.

For example, if you're a hospital running your staff and you have projected like $1.5 million for your energy bill, but that's been eaten up in six months from the higher costs, then you got to take the money off from some other place and that means less spending, less hiring, less expansion.

WHITFIELD: This is the last jobs report before the November elections. Is there any indication that this kind of momentum will continue or these numbers really do rely upon the results on November 2?

DHAWAN: I think the numbers might improve after November, once the uncertainty is clear who is in charge, what kind of policies we have in place and hopefully the oil prices come down. But if the oil prices don't come down, then all the bets are off, because that's going to keep on eating into the profit margin, which will make the executives hire less and less.

Rajeev Dhawan of Georgia State University thanks so much.

DHAWAN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Well coming up, the flu shot shortage and you. Should you still get inoculated, possibly depriving someone more vulnerable from getting a shot? When is your own health more important? Find out what the ethics guy has to say, straight ahead on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well by now, you know there is a flu vaccine shortage this year. Shots are being rationed to infants, the elderly, and other high-risk groups. Walgreen's drug stores and several other places are counting on their customers to be honest and forego the shots unless they absolutely need one. The maker of Flumist, an inhaled vaccine, plans to produce an additional million doses. It can be used by healthy people between the ages of five and 49. And that brings us to out ethics dilemma of the day. Say you want that flu shot, but you don't fit into any high-risk group. Would you lie to get the vaccine, even if it means you would deplete the supply for those who need it most?

Joining us from New York is the "Ethics Guy," Bruce Weinstein, he is a professional ethicist who shows businesses how to make better ethical decisions and he's also a syndicated newspaper columnist.

Good to see you.

BRUCE WEINSTEIN, THE ETHICS GUY: Hello. How are you?

WHITFIELD: I'm doing pretty good. All right, well let's begin with our first very timely e-mail from a viewer who says, quote, "I am a healthy adult and I usually get the flu shot. Should I feel guilty if I get one instead of giving it up for someone who is high-risk?

WEINSTEIN: Yes, you should feel guilty, because it is unethical to use something that is in short supply when you don't absolutely need it. The ethical principle that's at stake here, Fredricka, is the principle of justice or fairness. And the question is how should we allocate scarce resources fairly?

In New York state, the strategy is to limit the use of flu vaccine to the at-risk populations, namely children under two and adults over 65, unless you have a chronic problem like asthma or diabetes, you should differ to people who need it more than you do, and this dovetails nicely onto an issue that we talked about here last week, namely, is it ethical to go to work if you have the flu, if you have a cold? And the answer again is, it is unethical to do that, because you risk putting other people at risk. And, therefore, if you have the flu, stay home and don't infect other people, that's the right thing to do. And give up the flu vaccines to people who need it more than you do.

WHITFIELD: And it would seem pretty obvious if you've got to ask yourself, well should I lie in order to benefit from getting a vaccine, should I do it? I mean, already, you know, you're asking yourself, how do I justify being dishonest?

WEINSTEIN: In almost all circumstances, it is wrong to lie. There are a few extreme circumstances where we not only have a right to lie, we have a duty to lie, but that doesn't apply in this situation.

Now, you asked a question that's slightly different at the beginning of this segment: "Would you lie?" Now the question "Would you lie to get a flu vaccine" is different from the question "should you lie." "Would you lie" is really a psychological question and "should you lie" is the ethical one. And, as you suggested Fredricka, the answer is quite simple, "No, you shouldn't."

WHITFIELD: OK. Well, every week, we invite all of you out there to e-mail your questions for the ethics guy at ethics@cnn.com. And here's another one from today's mailbag, and this one is from a woman. She says:

"I just resigned my position at a government agency." This has nothing to do with the flu, but the way, this is -- we're kind of shifting gears here. "I'm a contractor and have been bullied by government employees. My contractor supervisors have not been able to stand up for me because they want to keep the peace and the contract.

I know, in a situation like this, the one with the least amount of power has to leave. I would still like to try to get a government job at the same agency. If I go to human resources department to file a complaint, do you think that might build a case agains the bullies?"

WEINSTEIN: Well, as the political philosopher, Edmund Burke, once said, "All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing." If this person does not take action, not only is she increasing risk of harm to herself, she's increasing risk that other people who take her place might be harmed.

Now, really, the answer to this question depends on what you mean "being bullied." Is it a psychological tactic, is this -- is this a threat of severe physical harm? But it's -- although it's understandable why we wouldn't want to get involved, because, you know, we risk being ostracized by our social group. It's very difficult to make an ethical case for that. We ought to get involved if there is a possibility of preventing harm to ourself and other people. Very -- it's a difficult situation, to be sure, but the ethical question -- the ethical answer, I believe, is pretty straightforward.

WHITFIELD: All right, helping us to put our thinking caps on this afternoon. Bruce Weinstein, the "Ethics Guy," as well as a syndicated newspaper columnist. And of course, all of you out there, if you have any questions or any real dilemmas that you'd like Bruce to help you resolve, please send your e-mails...

WEINSTEIN: Thank you so much.

WHITFIELD: To ethics@CNN.com. Thanks a lot, Bruce. Well, Afghans head to the polls, but the election is already in dispute. The latest from Christiane Amanpour, live from Kabul in about three minutes.

Also, could peace return to the streets of Baghdad's Sadr City? Brent Sadler is live in Baghdad and has the details straight ahead.

This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

WHITFIELD: Hello, again. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in the CNN Center in Atlanta. The second half of CNN LIVE SATURDAY is straight ahead, but first stories now in the news.

President Bush this hour is in Waterloo, Iowa. He's reaching out to supporters following last night's debate. He also held a so-called victory breakfast earlier in St. Louis, where the debate was held lat night.

Senator John Kerry is also back on the campaign trail, after last night's debate. He's holding a rally in the battleground state of Ohio. Later, he travels to Florida for a town hall meeting.

Australian voters have given their prime minister another term in office. John Howard has won his fourth term as prime minister. He'll become Australia's second longest serving prime minister in December.

The 65-year-old veteran politician defeated an opposition Labor leader, 22 years his junior.

Millions of Afghans went to the polls today for their first democratic election. A historic day by any measure, but the credibility of the vote is now in question. CNN Chief International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour is in Kabul.

Hello, Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INT'L CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, the good news is that the violence of the Taliban and other terrorists and warlords here threatened did not materialize and that many, many people went to the polls.

At a polling station we were at, at the very beginning of the voting day today, right through the day, there were thousands of men outside waiting to vote and hundreds of women. The men did vastly outnumber the women, but nonetheless the women were there and delighted to be there.

More than three years ago, they couldn't even go out in public without being heavily, heavily reprimanded and sometimes whipped by the Taliban.

Despite the voter enthusiasm, despite the fact they really did come out in numbers to vote for their future, it was marred by irregularities. The organizers managed to hand a technical excuse to the opponents, underdogs, mostly warlords, who in any event wanted to postpone this election.

There was basically not the right ink at many of the polling stations. Voters had to have their thumbprints marked with ink to ensure no fraud and of course that ink we saw was not indelible and it washed off.

This gave the opponent's an excuse to then go and ban together and declare that this was fraudulent, it wasn't fair, and they wanted it postponed. Some of these opponents, as I said, were warlords and they issued veiled threats against Karzai.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AHMAD SHAH ARMADZA (PH), AFGHAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is completely, completely pre-arranged fraud. We shouted the whole world two and a half months ago that Mr. Karzai must resign. The election commission must be replaced.

Nobody listened to us. They were telling us that we were just saying lies. Now, thank god, today was the proof for our request and for our recommendation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now, Hamid Karzai, the transitional president, is, of course, heavily favored to win and he is the clear frontrunner. He did cast his own ballot earlier today in Kabul and said no matter who won, a successful election would mean the Afghan people won.

Now, it has cast in doubt on what the future will be. Will those opposition people boycott? Will the result be disputed? More to the point, will they follow up on their threats to make a Karzai government ungovernable? That's what they said to us. How can he govern if we don't agree to the results?

We're really waiting and watching to see how this plays out and see what the final result will be of this historic election year. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: Will some of that determination be made on how many of these 10 million registered voters would actually be able to exercise their right to vote?

AMANPOUR: Well, from what we know -- and we can't really tell you, because there isn't proper exit polls, or not enough international observers by any stretch of the imagination to tell us clearly right now what the nationwide turnout was. But most of the people we saw in Kabul really wanted to go to the polls and they did.

There was this glitch with this ink in the middle of the day, and that caused a lot of people to leave the polls. So, we'll see exactly what the turnout does materialize to be.

WHITFIELD: Christiane Amanpour in Kabul. Thanks so much.

Well, President Bush took credit today for setting the stage for the Afghan elections with the U.S. overthrow of the Taliban back in 2001. He spoke at a breakfast rally in St. Louis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Marvelous thing is happening in Afghanistan. Freedom is powerful. Think about a society in which young girls couldn't go to school and their mothers were whipped in the public square and today they're holding a presidential election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The president also congratulated Australian Prime Minister John Howard, on his election victory.

In Iraq, a deal is on the table to end months of unrest in the poor Baghdad neighborhood known as Sadr City. CNN's Brent Sadler joins us with details from Baghdad.

Brent?

BRENT SADLER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Fredricka.

Iraqi interim government officials say they have made a breakthrough, a very important step in ending weeks of fighting in Sadr City. That's a slum district on the eastern outskirts of the Iraqi capital, home to around 2 million impoverished Iraqis Shia, making up about 1/10 of the entire population.

Now, as I say, for weeks, the forces of Muqtada al Sadr, that's the renegade Iraqi Shia cleric have been battling U.S. led forces of the Iraqi police and Iraqi National Guard, for control of that very important area just outside the Iraqi capital. ' Now, this initiative envisages the starting on Monday of a five- day period for members of the Muqtada al Sadr's Mehdi army to hand down those weapons that they have in there. Thousands of rocket- propelled grenades, mortars, heavy machine guns and stockpiles of explosives, medium and heavy weapons. In exchange for that handover, there will be a cessation of hostilities, an amnesty for so-called non-criminals within the Mehdi army and reconstruction in embattled parts of Sadr City. Now, in return the Mehdi army leaders would allow Iraqi security forces, police and National Guard to go inside Sadr City after that five-day period, assuming all goes well, backed up by multinational forces to regain control of this rebel area.

Now, by no means is this the beginning of the end of an attempt to break through the insurgency as a whole, but stabilizing this volatile area just outside the capital is seen by government officials here as a significant step in using carrot-and-stick approach, that's the military and political dialogue going on, to achieve this deal, a significant step forward -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Brent, you have to wonder if it's a step toward Muqtada al Sadr's urging or plea to be a part of the political process in terms of being on the ballot come January, if at all possible?

SADLER: Too early to say if that's going to happen, but certainly if this goes ahead -- by no means is it certain it's going to go ahead smoothly. There's likely to be opposition within Muqtada al Sadr's camp itself among extremist militants factors of that organization that could violently challenge the implementation of this initiative.

But if it does go smoothly, there is a window of opportunity somewhere down the road for Muqtada al Sadr to enter the mainstream political process.

WHITFIELD: Interesting. All right. Brent Sadler in Baghdad. Thanks very much.

Here are some other stories making headlines around the world today Tony Blair is expressing utter revulsion at the videotape of beheading of Kenneth Bigley. U.S. officials tell CNN Bigley was killed after he tried to escape.

The death toll from Thursday's attack on Sinai resorts rose to 33 today. Crews pulled more bodies from the wreckage of the Hilton Hotel in Taba (ph). Many of the dead are Israelis vacationing in Egypt. Israel blamed Al Qaeda.

And in Gaza, Israeli attacks left six Palestinians dead today, according to Palestinian security sources. The Israeli military has stepped up operations in Gaza this month. It is trying to stop militants from firing rockets into the southern part of the country.

Coming up next, a debate strategy reality check. Stretching the truth can be a bit of a strategy, but how to tell if it's fact or fiction. We'll show you.

Later, who was the winner among undecided voters watching last night's debate? Bill Hemmer takes a closer look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WHITFIELD: It is the day after the debate. The presidential candidates are stumping across the nation to get out their messages. President Bush is hitting the campaign trail hard after attending an event in St. Louis this morning, he's holding a rally, right now, as you see it in this live picture, in Waterloo, Iowa. He'll head to Minnesota later today and then back to his Texas ranch.

Democrat John Kerry is campaigning in the battleground states today as well. He's holding a rally for a stronger America this hour in Elyria, Ohio. However, he has not arrived at the podium. That is no who you're seeing. That is the stage that is set for Kerry's arrival. And he'll travel this evening to Florida for a town hall meeting.

The presidential debate had both candidates on the defensive. President Bush attacked John Kerry on his voting record in the Senate. Senator Kerry attacked Mr. Bush on his economic policies. But what is the real truth behind the rhetoric of the candidates? CNN's Joe Johns did some fact checking and has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): More than once, President Bush said John Kerry is the most liberal member of the Senate, citing "The National Journal" ranking of senators by their recorded votes.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: "The National Journal" named Senator Kerry the most liberal senator of all. That's saying something, in that bunch. You might say that took a lot of hard work.

JOHNS: That is technically true for 2003, but it is far from the whole story. Kerry's lifetime rating puts him as the 11th most liberal senator. Once he started running for president his voting attendance fell off dramatically throwing "The National Journal" methodology way off.

"The Journal" tossed out all his votes on social and foreign policy because he hadn't cast enough votes on those issues. And based Kerry's ranking solely on his domestic policy votes, on 22 of 62 total votes cast. Without the full accounting, "The National Journal" lifetime ranking of Kerry as the 11th most liberal senator is more fair than the label of most liberal.

For his part, Kerry appears to have overstated the number of lost jobs since Bush took office.

SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president has presided over an economy where we have lost 1.6 million jobs, the first president in 72 years to lose jobs.

JOHNS: Kerry says the economy has lost 1.6 million jobs since 2001. That's true if all you're considering is the private sector. If you add the government jobs created during that period, the net job loss is 821,000, almost half the figure Kerry cited. All in all at first glance, the vast majority of assertions had although least some basis in fact, but when it suited their ends, both candidate left out the other side of the story. Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And CNN is your campaign headquarters. If you missed last night's debate you can watch and encore presentation today at 2:00 p.m. Eastern.

The candidate's square off again next week. CNN will bring you the third presidential debate live from Tempe, Arizona. Our coverage begins next Wednesday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

The issues, the statements and how undecided voters reacted. Coming up the focus group reaction and the key differences between men and women in how they viewed the debate.

Also, the gracious Southern city by the sea. Our weekend getaways heads to Charleston, South Carolina. That is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Charleston offers so much, history, charm and all that during the fall season, no less. The South Carolina city is filled with grand architecture, history, festivals and low-country food and famous Southern accents.

Janice Kahn has run a tour business in Charleston for three decades, making her an expert on the city.

Janice, good to see you.

JANICE KAHN, CHARLESTON HISTORIAN: Thanks so much for having me.

WHITFIELD: It's always fun to talk about one of my favorite cities. We know it's a very picturesque place during spring and summer. Why are you trying to convince folks that fall is a great time to enjoy Charleston?

KAHN: That's a great question. The reason is the weather. It's perfect. We had a little liquid sunshine this morning to water our beautiful flowers that are in bloom. We have plumbago (ph), and sage, the camellias, the sasanquas (ph), and the fragrance of the tea olive and also the ginger.

It's a great time to come, because there are flowers in bloom at this time of the year and the weather is perfect temperature wise.

WHITFIELD: Wow. So, once you get there, what are the highlights you really need to take advantage of? I know the gardens are beautiful as you just described. What are some of the other things?

KAHN: One of the things I always like to recommend is we are a city that has so many old and historic churches and synagogues, and I recommend that they go to see the ones of their faith. We have very old protestant churches, the oldest Catholic Church in the Carolinas and Georgia, the oldest synagogue in continuous use. And a very old AME Church, if they would go to some of these places, which are a bit unusual, because the architecture is beautiful. And then also they see where their ancestors originally were here in Charleston.

WHITFIELD: What is so neat is as you take in all these sights from the churches, to the historic homes, et cetera, you can do it in many different ways right? You have walking tours, you can always get on the horse and buggy. What's your best advice?

KAHN: The best advice is anything is wonderful in Charleston, no matter what type of tour that you take. So, certainly, we have van tours. You can do the walking tours. You can get private guides. You can even pick up a little book that tells you about where some of the sights are.

By all means, go to our visitor information center. That is so important, because you can pick up brochures. There's so much to do here. I try to tailor make my tours to what people want, because the spectrum is so large here.

WHITFIELD: It sounds like it's by adults primarily. You still encourage it there are some family oriented stuff?

KAHN: Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Yes, that's the most important thing, we have things for, for instance, our children, Justin, David and Cynthia take our grandchildren to the children's museum, which is here, to aquarium and they're not only fish there, but there are animals.

They learn conservation, about how the water comes from the Appalachians down to the ocean here.

WHITFIELD: Wow, so much to take in.

KAHN: Lots of things. It's a family city.

WHITFIELD: Janice Kahn, Charleston, South Carolina, historian. Thanks so much. We're ready to book our flights and pack up the cars and head your way.

KAHN: Come on down real soon.

WHITFIELD: Thanks so much.

On now to presidential politics, which candidate won last night's debate in your view? The real-time reaction of some undecided voters and answers that might surprise you. That's right ahead on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: During last night's presidential debate, CNN's Bill Hemmer watched with a group of mostly independent viewers who kept their fingers on the pulse of the exchanges.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORESPONDENT (voice over): On the campus of Ohio State University, 24 mostly undecided men and women formed their own town hall meeting. Among them, retired teachers and homemakers, a jeweler, a student and landscaper, rating the candidates on a scale of one to 10 using handheld meters, the women were registered in yellow, the men in blue.

The president received a significant spike when he was asked about the draft.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not going to have a draft, period. The all-volunteer army works. It works particularly when we pay our troops well. It works when we make sure they have housing, like we have done in the last military budgets.

HEMMER: Several minutes later, Senator Kerry impressed our voters when he made a promise directly to the camera.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am not going to raise taxes. I have a tax cut. Here is my tax cut. I raise the childcare credit by $1,000 for families to help them be able to take care of their kids. I have a $4,000 tuition tax credit that goes to parents and kids if they're earning for themselves to be able to pay for college.

HEMMER: Throughout the 90-minute format, men, in general, gave Senator Kerry higher marks and women rated President Bush higher. Some say they were swayed by the candidates, others though, still needed to hear more.

JON MORRIS, EMOTIONAL RESPONSE MODELING: We find people are ether very negative against Bush or very positive for Bush. On the other hand, with Kerry, we find about four different distinct groups. People are positive, some are a little less excited about him, some people are negative about him.

LARRY ROSS, INSURANCE AGENT: I think Bush stuck with what he said he was going to do, what his message has been all along. And I think Kerry there, again, was on the negative attack.

WESLEY CLARKSON, CLERICAL WORKER: He straight up lied to American people tonight, like he did on the war in terrorism.

HEMMER: In the end, 11 in our group said Senator Kerry won this debate, 11 said President Bush won, and two said it was a tie. A sample that mirrors the tight race across the nation. Bill Hemmer, CNN, Columbus, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Still much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. In a few moments, "In The Money".

Then at 2:00 Eastern, your chance to see it all again. We will replay last night's presidential debate in its entirety.

And at 4, CNN LIVE SATURDAY, today looking at dieting and the hardest part of losing weight.

First, Susan Lisovicz has a preview of IN THE MONEY.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN ANCHOR, IN THE MONEY: Thanks.

Coming up on IN THE MONEY, don't be a stranger. See if the boom in voter registration will really mean a bigger turn out on election day.

Also, ahead, sure shots and near misses. There is a flu vaccine shortage, again. We'll look at how to stop the problem.

And spenders ed, find out how to teach your kids to handle their money the smart way. All of that and more after this quick check of the headlines.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired October 9, 2004 - 12:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It is 12:00 p.m. on the East coast, 11:00 a.m. in Iowa on the presidential campaign trail, I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Ahead this hour:

The debate, the spin as the campaigns hit the road. We are live with the Bush and Kerry campaigns at political events this hour.

Also, a fact check of what the candidates said during the debate and how it squares with reality.

Later, the focus group of undecided voters and their moment by moment reaction by the debate. What statements scored well for the candidates?

But first, a look at top stories now in the news.

Election officials in Afghanistan say allegations of vote fraud will be investigated, but President Hamid Karzai calls the voting "free, fair and legitimate." Millions of voters turned out for the nation's first direct presidential election despite calls for it to be abandoned and rescheduled. A live report from Kabul in 30 minutes.

A big election victory for a strong supporter of policy in Iraq. Australian prime minister, John Howard, has won a historic fourth consecutive term in office. His conservative government returns probably with an increase majority in Parliament.

In Iraq, the interim government and forces loyal to Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, say they've reached a peace deal to restore peace in Baghdad's volatile Sadr City neighborhood. The Mehdi army is due to disarm starting Monday in an unofficial ceasefire. The Iraqi forces will then take control of the slum (SIC) area where two million people live.

Israel says at least 33 people are dead in Thursday's attack targeting Israeli tourists at resorts in Egypt. It's believed a dozen more bodies may be trapped in the rubble at the Taba Hilton. Israel says al-Qaeda is likely behind the bombings, but Egypt says it is too early to say.

We begin with the battle for the White House. President Bush and Senator John Kerry are back on the campaign trail after their spirited face-off in the "Show Me" state. In last night's debate, in Saint Louis, both men tried their best to sway undecided voters who hold the key to the oval office. CNN's Judy Woodruff gives us the highlights on the second of three presidential debates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ground first trod was familiar: Iraq. George W. Bush kept a theme accusing his challenger of blowing with the political winds.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't see how you can lead this country in a time of war, in a time of uncertainty if you change your mind because of politics.

WOODRUFF: And John Kerry charged the president rushed to war, fracturing international alliances in the process.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The world is more dangerous today. The world is more dangerous today because the president didn't make the right judgments.

WOODRUFF: Iraq consumed just over a third of the wide-ranging debate, as uncommitted voters in the town meeting posed questions on topics ranging from the environment to stem cell research. No surprise, the economy was a favorite focus, with Kerry noting the latest not-so rosy jobs figures.

KERRY: The president has presided over the economy where we've lost 1.6 million jobs. The first president in 72 years to lose jobs.

WOODRUFF: Bush panted his rival as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, full of promises he wouldn't be able to pay for without raising taxes.

BUSH: Now, he just going to break all these wonderful promises he's told you about or he's going to raise taxes.

WOODRUFF: Prompting a pledge from Kerry on middle class taxes.

KERRY: Right into the camera, yes. I am not going to raise taxes.

WOODRUFF: The format gave both men a chance to showcase their personal skills, addressing questioners by name, roaming freely around the stage.

BUSH: That answer almost made me want to scowl.

WOODRUFF: But he didn't, at least not much. He smiled a lot and winked once. The fighting words flew, but the fighting faces were not on display.

Judy Woodruff, CNN, Saint Louis.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: So, the big question today is who won last night's face-off in Saint Louis? Well, here's what some of the polls are showing this morning. In a CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll of those who watched, 47 percent of the respondents say Kerry did a better job, 45 percent say Bush did. The democrat candidate also came out on top in and "ABC News" poll, 44 to 41 percent; 13 percent say the two men tied. Both polls are within the margin of error.

With the race headed for the homestretch, time is of the essence for President Bush and Senator Kerry. At this hour, both men are holding rallies in battleground states. National correspondent, Frank Buckley, is with the campaign in Elyria, Ohio, and White House correspondent, Suzanne Malveaux is with the Bush campaign in Waterloo, Iowa.

Let's begin with you, Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well Fred, I have to tell you, all the Bush aides that I spoke with are pleased with President Bush's performance, last night. They believe he did what he had to do, that is to stop the bleeding and continue the momentum. The key here, of course, is to build on the momentum; they believe that President Bush is back in the game. The key part of this strategy is to paint Senator Kerry as being one who says one thing and does another. Specifically, they're looking to use his own record and his own words against him to show that his economic policies, his health care policies, as well as his own foreign policies, they believe, are contradictory, saying one thing, but doing another.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Several of his statements just don't pass the credibility test. With a straight face, he said, "I've only had one position on Iraq." He must think we've been on another planet. In the spring of 2003, as I order the invasion of Iraq, Senator Kerry said "it was the right decision." Now he says "it's the wrong war." And he tries to tell us he has had only one position? Who's he trying to kid? He can run, but he cannot hide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And that is the line, Fred, that we have been hearing over and over today. He is testing that new line, of course, going into the final debate Wednesday. Also talking about his domestic policies, defending his domestic policies, particularly his economic policies, in light of those disappointing new job numbers, saying the country is on the right track and to let you know, of course, what is just as important as the message is where he says it.

Important, of course, here in Iowa, this is where he lost by just 4,000 votes last time around. He heads next to Minnesota next, that is where he lost by just two-and-a-half percentage points. The key part of that strategy, of course, is to hit those states where the president just narrowly lost. He is hoping to gain ground in those states and turn this around. But, with just weeks ahead here, Fred this campaign is energized, they are pumped up. They believe that that debate performance made all the difference in the world -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, Suzanne Malveaux in Waterloo, Iowa, with the president.

Now, let's go to Elyria, Ohio, where Frank Buckley is traveling with the Kerry camp -- Frank.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Fredricka. Senator Kerry set to take the stage here at a rally and concert -- outdoor rally and concert, here in Ohio, one of the 15 battleground states expected to decide this election.

Meanwhile Kerry campaign officials say they're pleased with his performance in the debate last night. Kerry advisors say that they were able to put President Bush on the defensive and advisors claim their survey data from this debate indicates that Kerry also gained some points for himself in terms of likeability and also the confidence level that voters have in Kerry's ability to lead.

Senator Kerry, meanwhile, again, here for an outdoor concert and rally. He had another one earlier -- earlier in the day, in fact, last night, in Saint Louis, immediately after the debate. Here's what he is telling his supporters about what they need to do during the next three-and-a-half weeks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: These next three-and-a-half weeks are going to be the hard hardest political work we've ever done. These next three-and-a- half weeks, they're going to throw everything, including the kitchen sink. These next three-and-a-half weeks, we're going to have to go out there and keep talking common sense, mainstream American values. Keep talking to our friends. Keep talking to people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BUCKLEY: Kerry expected to continue his focus on domestic issues leading up to the debate on Wednesday, which is going to be solely focused on domestic issues, but we're also told by a senior strategist that it may sound like stereo at times, because while they will be focusing on domestic issues, they will also talk a lot about what's going on in Iraq. They believe that both lines of criticism fold in nicely with their broader theme, which is that President Bush can't fix problems if he won't acknowledge them -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Frank Buckley in Elyria, Ohio. Thanks so very much.

Well, it's no surprise that both the Bush and Kerry campaigns are putting the positive spin on their candidate's performance last night in Saint Louis. "Newsweek's" Daniel Klaidman, he is with me now to talk more about the debate and how he saw it play out. He's the magazine's Washington bureau chief.

Good to see you, Daniel.

DANIEL KLAIDMAN, "NEWSWEEK" WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Good to be with you, Fredricka. WHITFIELD: All right, well last night, the questioning was from and for the undecided voters. Did you hear anything from either side that really would lock in a vote among those undecided voters?

KLAIDMAN: You know, it's interesting -- you know, coming out of the last debate where President Bush did not do a very good job, I think what he was trying to do was shore up his base and so he played a little bit more to the base, which means he gave them a little more red meat on social issues, on the war on terrorism.

Senator Kerry, on the other hand who did well in last week's debate, I think, was trying to reach out more to independents and swing voters and shore up his reputation as a centrist. He emphasized his -- the fact that he had voted cut the -- deal with the deficit, cut the budget, that he's a fiscal moderate or conservative, and he compared himself to Ronald Reagan and Dwit Eisenhower a couple of times. So, I think that was the strategy and, you know, this goes back and forth depending on where each candidate sees the base and the extent to which he thinks he needs to reach out to swing voters.

WHITFIELD: In many cases, last night, just as in the first debate, what was said may have been upstaged by how it was said. So, if you try to evaluate the behavior, the body language of President Bush and Candidate Kerry, what did you see that really stood out as making one over the other look more presidential, more in control?

KLAIDMAN: Well, it was a very interesting match-up in that respect. And I think both candidates did things that they needed to do. President Bush was much more energetic than he was in the first debate, and he was able to control his facial expressions. None of those scowls, there were some smiles, there was a wink. And I think what he did was he displayed a kind of a controlled passion, which I think plays well with voters. On the other hand, Senator Kerry was very poised. He was tough, he was combative, but he didn't lose control. He was restrained and poised and that makes him look presidential and makes him look like he could be plausible as a commander in chief. So, I think they both scored important points in that respect.

WHITFIELD: And despite what the polls say about who may have won during last night's debate, was it the undecided voters, those who were asking the questions, who really did score some points too, by being able to have their voices heard in this kind of format, take control of this second of three debates?

KLAIDMAN: Well, what was so interesting about the format, to me, is compared to the vice presidential debate, compared to some of the other debates, it was a much more diverse array of questions. I think that's what happens when you get a group of Americans from all walks of life together and you hear their concerns, and so, while we didn't hear much about the environment, for example, in the vice presidential debate; we didn't hear much about stem cell research in some of the other debates, all of those questions came up last night and I think that serves the American people, as they're trying to make what is a very difficult choice coming up on November 2.

WHITFIELD: All right, "Newsweek's Daniel Klaidman. Thanks so much for joining us.

KLAIDMAN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Well, if you missed last night's presidential debate in Saint Louis, stay with CNN for an encore, we're showing it again today at 2:00 p.m. Eastern. And, of course, CNN is the place to be for Wednesday night's third presidential face-off in Tempe, Arizona. Our coverage gets underway at 7:00 p.m. Eastern on Wednesday.

Well much of last night's debate focused on job issues. With the release of the Labor Department's numbers yesterday, we'll take a closer look at what the figures mean and the impact on the turbulent campaign trail.

And a different storm spinning toward Louisiana: Tropical Depression Matthew moves closer.

And, later, debate facts or fiction? Our Joe Johns has a fact check on some of the night's more provocative claims.

This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, fresh from his second presidential debate in Saint Louis last night, you see there, President Bush now in Waterloo, Iowa there. That live picture coming to us straight from Waterloo did you during one of his, of many, campaign stops before he heads on to his third presidential debate, which is scheduled for Wednesday.

Well, now a look at some stories making news across America.

Lori Hacking will be buried today in Salt Lake City. She's the young woman whose remains were found last week in a landfill. Her husband, Mark, is charged with her murder.

More than a dozen people are killed in a bus accident in Arkansas. A group of 30 relatives and friends were en route from Chicago for a gambling weekend at a Mississippi casino. The bus flipped over on an interstate near Memphis, Tennessee, crushing some passengers. No word yet on the cause of that tragedy.

In California, what's the meaning of matrimony? In a legal opinion aimed at appeasing both sides in the gay marriage debate, the state's attorney general says laws limiting marriage to a man and a woman do not violate California's constitution, but neither would a law allowing same-sex couples to marry.

Let's check in with Rob Marciano in the Weather Center with a tropical depression, so far, still brewing?

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes.

WHITFIELD: In the gulf?

(WEATHER REPORT) WHITFIELD: Thanks so much, Rob.

Well, the last monthly jobs report before the election appears weaker than Wall Street wanted and worse than the White House had hoped. The report shows that 96,000 new jobs with an unemployment rate holding steady at 5.4 percent. Here to help analyze the numbers, Rajeev Dhawan of the Georgia State University Economic Forecasting Center

Good to see you.

RAJEEV DHAWAN, GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY: Good morning.

All right, well what does this mean? We're talking about an increase in jobs, about 96,000 just for last month. What kind of jobs are we talking about?

DHAWAN: They were all types, but unfortunately we lost some high-paying jobs, in manufacturing, information technology, management of companies. We did gain the other jobs. The expansion is going on, but it's not as strong as it was between March and May, that was the golden spring, as I would call it, 290,000 jobs per month. Now we're doing just barely 100,000.

WHITFIELD: Yeah. The projection, at least the Bush administration, was hoping for 150,000 for that month, alone. However, last night we heard the president reiterate, during the debate, that these job numbers are proof of a continued employment expansion overall, over 13 months, something like two million jobs. How do we understand the disparity of these numbers?

DHAWAN: You see, the expansion is going on, as I said, but it's not as strong because the oil prices and the uncertainty about who's going to be the commander in chief, come November, is causing some trouble with the capital spending, causing the trouble with the profit margins, and the executives are pulling back, to some extent. And when that happens, you will have this trouble.

For example, if you're a hospital running your staff and you have projected like $1.5 million for your energy bill, but that's been eaten up in six months from the higher costs, then you got to take the money off from some other place and that means less spending, less hiring, less expansion.

WHITFIELD: This is the last jobs report before the November elections. Is there any indication that this kind of momentum will continue or these numbers really do rely upon the results on November 2?

DHAWAN: I think the numbers might improve after November, once the uncertainty is clear who is in charge, what kind of policies we have in place and hopefully the oil prices come down. But if the oil prices don't come down, then all the bets are off, because that's going to keep on eating into the profit margin, which will make the executives hire less and less.

Rajeev Dhawan of Georgia State University thanks so much.

DHAWAN: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Well coming up, the flu shot shortage and you. Should you still get inoculated, possibly depriving someone more vulnerable from getting a shot? When is your own health more important? Find out what the ethics guy has to say, straight ahead on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well by now, you know there is a flu vaccine shortage this year. Shots are being rationed to infants, the elderly, and other high-risk groups. Walgreen's drug stores and several other places are counting on their customers to be honest and forego the shots unless they absolutely need one. The maker of Flumist, an inhaled vaccine, plans to produce an additional million doses. It can be used by healthy people between the ages of five and 49. And that brings us to out ethics dilemma of the day. Say you want that flu shot, but you don't fit into any high-risk group. Would you lie to get the vaccine, even if it means you would deplete the supply for those who need it most?

Joining us from New York is the "Ethics Guy," Bruce Weinstein, he is a professional ethicist who shows businesses how to make better ethical decisions and he's also a syndicated newspaper columnist.

Good to see you.

BRUCE WEINSTEIN, THE ETHICS GUY: Hello. How are you?

WHITFIELD: I'm doing pretty good. All right, well let's begin with our first very timely e-mail from a viewer who says, quote, "I am a healthy adult and I usually get the flu shot. Should I feel guilty if I get one instead of giving it up for someone who is high-risk?

WEINSTEIN: Yes, you should feel guilty, because it is unethical to use something that is in short supply when you don't absolutely need it. The ethical principle that's at stake here, Fredricka, is the principle of justice or fairness. And the question is how should we allocate scarce resources fairly?

In New York state, the strategy is to limit the use of flu vaccine to the at-risk populations, namely children under two and adults over 65, unless you have a chronic problem like asthma or diabetes, you should differ to people who need it more than you do, and this dovetails nicely onto an issue that we talked about here last week, namely, is it ethical to go to work if you have the flu, if you have a cold? And the answer again is, it is unethical to do that, because you risk putting other people at risk. And, therefore, if you have the flu, stay home and don't infect other people, that's the right thing to do. And give up the flu vaccines to people who need it more than you do.

WHITFIELD: And it would seem pretty obvious if you've got to ask yourself, well should I lie in order to benefit from getting a vaccine, should I do it? I mean, already, you know, you're asking yourself, how do I justify being dishonest?

WEINSTEIN: In almost all circumstances, it is wrong to lie. There are a few extreme circumstances where we not only have a right to lie, we have a duty to lie, but that doesn't apply in this situation.

Now, you asked a question that's slightly different at the beginning of this segment: "Would you lie?" Now the question "Would you lie to get a flu vaccine" is different from the question "should you lie." "Would you lie" is really a psychological question and "should you lie" is the ethical one. And, as you suggested Fredricka, the answer is quite simple, "No, you shouldn't."

WHITFIELD: OK. Well, every week, we invite all of you out there to e-mail your questions for the ethics guy at ethics@cnn.com. And here's another one from today's mailbag, and this one is from a woman. She says:

"I just resigned my position at a government agency." This has nothing to do with the flu, but the way, this is -- we're kind of shifting gears here. "I'm a contractor and have been bullied by government employees. My contractor supervisors have not been able to stand up for me because they want to keep the peace and the contract.

I know, in a situation like this, the one with the least amount of power has to leave. I would still like to try to get a government job at the same agency. If I go to human resources department to file a complaint, do you think that might build a case agains the bullies?"

WEINSTEIN: Well, as the political philosopher, Edmund Burke, once said, "All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing." If this person does not take action, not only is she increasing risk of harm to herself, she's increasing risk that other people who take her place might be harmed.

Now, really, the answer to this question depends on what you mean "being bullied." Is it a psychological tactic, is this -- is this a threat of severe physical harm? But it's -- although it's understandable why we wouldn't want to get involved, because, you know, we risk being ostracized by our social group. It's very difficult to make an ethical case for that. We ought to get involved if there is a possibility of preventing harm to ourself and other people. Very -- it's a difficult situation, to be sure, but the ethical question -- the ethical answer, I believe, is pretty straightforward.

WHITFIELD: All right, helping us to put our thinking caps on this afternoon. Bruce Weinstein, the "Ethics Guy," as well as a syndicated newspaper columnist. And of course, all of you out there, if you have any questions or any real dilemmas that you'd like Bruce to help you resolve, please send your e-mails...

WEINSTEIN: Thank you so much.

WHITFIELD: To ethics@CNN.com. Thanks a lot, Bruce. Well, Afghans head to the polls, but the election is already in dispute. The latest from Christiane Amanpour, live from Kabul in about three minutes.

Also, could peace return to the streets of Baghdad's Sadr City? Brent Sadler is live in Baghdad and has the details straight ahead.

This is CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

WHITFIELD: Hello, again. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in the CNN Center in Atlanta. The second half of CNN LIVE SATURDAY is straight ahead, but first stories now in the news.

President Bush this hour is in Waterloo, Iowa. He's reaching out to supporters following last night's debate. He also held a so-called victory breakfast earlier in St. Louis, where the debate was held lat night.

Senator John Kerry is also back on the campaign trail, after last night's debate. He's holding a rally in the battleground state of Ohio. Later, he travels to Florida for a town hall meeting.

Australian voters have given their prime minister another term in office. John Howard has won his fourth term as prime minister. He'll become Australia's second longest serving prime minister in December.

The 65-year-old veteran politician defeated an opposition Labor leader, 22 years his junior.

Millions of Afghans went to the polls today for their first democratic election. A historic day by any measure, but the credibility of the vote is now in question. CNN Chief International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour is in Kabul.

Hello, Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INT'L CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, the good news is that the violence of the Taliban and other terrorists and warlords here threatened did not materialize and that many, many people went to the polls.

At a polling station we were at, at the very beginning of the voting day today, right through the day, there were thousands of men outside waiting to vote and hundreds of women. The men did vastly outnumber the women, but nonetheless the women were there and delighted to be there.

More than three years ago, they couldn't even go out in public without being heavily, heavily reprimanded and sometimes whipped by the Taliban.

Despite the voter enthusiasm, despite the fact they really did come out in numbers to vote for their future, it was marred by irregularities. The organizers managed to hand a technical excuse to the opponents, underdogs, mostly warlords, who in any event wanted to postpone this election.

There was basically not the right ink at many of the polling stations. Voters had to have their thumbprints marked with ink to ensure no fraud and of course that ink we saw was not indelible and it washed off.

This gave the opponent's an excuse to then go and ban together and declare that this was fraudulent, it wasn't fair, and they wanted it postponed. Some of these opponents, as I said, were warlords and they issued veiled threats against Karzai.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AHMAD SHAH ARMADZA (PH), AFGHAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is completely, completely pre-arranged fraud. We shouted the whole world two and a half months ago that Mr. Karzai must resign. The election commission must be replaced.

Nobody listened to us. They were telling us that we were just saying lies. Now, thank god, today was the proof for our request and for our recommendation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now, Hamid Karzai, the transitional president, is, of course, heavily favored to win and he is the clear frontrunner. He did cast his own ballot earlier today in Kabul and said no matter who won, a successful election would mean the Afghan people won.

Now, it has cast in doubt on what the future will be. Will those opposition people boycott? Will the result be disputed? More to the point, will they follow up on their threats to make a Karzai government ungovernable? That's what they said to us. How can he govern if we don't agree to the results?

We're really waiting and watching to see how this plays out and see what the final result will be of this historic election year. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: Will some of that determination be made on how many of these 10 million registered voters would actually be able to exercise their right to vote?

AMANPOUR: Well, from what we know -- and we can't really tell you, because there isn't proper exit polls, or not enough international observers by any stretch of the imagination to tell us clearly right now what the nationwide turnout was. But most of the people we saw in Kabul really wanted to go to the polls and they did.

There was this glitch with this ink in the middle of the day, and that caused a lot of people to leave the polls. So, we'll see exactly what the turnout does materialize to be.

WHITFIELD: Christiane Amanpour in Kabul. Thanks so much.

Well, President Bush took credit today for setting the stage for the Afghan elections with the U.S. overthrow of the Taliban back in 2001. He spoke at a breakfast rally in St. Louis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Marvelous thing is happening in Afghanistan. Freedom is powerful. Think about a society in which young girls couldn't go to school and their mothers were whipped in the public square and today they're holding a presidential election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The president also congratulated Australian Prime Minister John Howard, on his election victory.

In Iraq, a deal is on the table to end months of unrest in the poor Baghdad neighborhood known as Sadr City. CNN's Brent Sadler joins us with details from Baghdad.

Brent?

BRENT SADLER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Fredricka.

Iraqi interim government officials say they have made a breakthrough, a very important step in ending weeks of fighting in Sadr City. That's a slum district on the eastern outskirts of the Iraqi capital, home to around 2 million impoverished Iraqis Shia, making up about 1/10 of the entire population.

Now, as I say, for weeks, the forces of Muqtada al Sadr, that's the renegade Iraqi Shia cleric have been battling U.S. led forces of the Iraqi police and Iraqi National Guard, for control of that very important area just outside the Iraqi capital. ' Now, this initiative envisages the starting on Monday of a five- day period for members of the Muqtada al Sadr's Mehdi army to hand down those weapons that they have in there. Thousands of rocket- propelled grenades, mortars, heavy machine guns and stockpiles of explosives, medium and heavy weapons. In exchange for that handover, there will be a cessation of hostilities, an amnesty for so-called non-criminals within the Mehdi army and reconstruction in embattled parts of Sadr City. Now, in return the Mehdi army leaders would allow Iraqi security forces, police and National Guard to go inside Sadr City after that five-day period, assuming all goes well, backed up by multinational forces to regain control of this rebel area.

Now, by no means is this the beginning of the end of an attempt to break through the insurgency as a whole, but stabilizing this volatile area just outside the capital is seen by government officials here as a significant step in using carrot-and-stick approach, that's the military and political dialogue going on, to achieve this deal, a significant step forward -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Brent, you have to wonder if it's a step toward Muqtada al Sadr's urging or plea to be a part of the political process in terms of being on the ballot come January, if at all possible?

SADLER: Too early to say if that's going to happen, but certainly if this goes ahead -- by no means is it certain it's going to go ahead smoothly. There's likely to be opposition within Muqtada al Sadr's camp itself among extremist militants factors of that organization that could violently challenge the implementation of this initiative.

But if it does go smoothly, there is a window of opportunity somewhere down the road for Muqtada al Sadr to enter the mainstream political process.

WHITFIELD: Interesting. All right. Brent Sadler in Baghdad. Thanks very much.

Here are some other stories making headlines around the world today Tony Blair is expressing utter revulsion at the videotape of beheading of Kenneth Bigley. U.S. officials tell CNN Bigley was killed after he tried to escape.

The death toll from Thursday's attack on Sinai resorts rose to 33 today. Crews pulled more bodies from the wreckage of the Hilton Hotel in Taba (ph). Many of the dead are Israelis vacationing in Egypt. Israel blamed Al Qaeda.

And in Gaza, Israeli attacks left six Palestinians dead today, according to Palestinian security sources. The Israeli military has stepped up operations in Gaza this month. It is trying to stop militants from firing rockets into the southern part of the country.

Coming up next, a debate strategy reality check. Stretching the truth can be a bit of a strategy, but how to tell if it's fact or fiction. We'll show you.

Later, who was the winner among undecided voters watching last night's debate? Bill Hemmer takes a closer look.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) WHITFIELD: It is the day after the debate. The presidential candidates are stumping across the nation to get out their messages. President Bush is hitting the campaign trail hard after attending an event in St. Louis this morning, he's holding a rally, right now, as you see it in this live picture, in Waterloo, Iowa. He'll head to Minnesota later today and then back to his Texas ranch.

Democrat John Kerry is campaigning in the battleground states today as well. He's holding a rally for a stronger America this hour in Elyria, Ohio. However, he has not arrived at the podium. That is no who you're seeing. That is the stage that is set for Kerry's arrival. And he'll travel this evening to Florida for a town hall meeting.

The presidential debate had both candidates on the defensive. President Bush attacked John Kerry on his voting record in the Senate. Senator Kerry attacked Mr. Bush on his economic policies. But what is the real truth behind the rhetoric of the candidates? CNN's Joe Johns did some fact checking and has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (voice over): More than once, President Bush said John Kerry is the most liberal member of the Senate, citing "The National Journal" ranking of senators by their recorded votes.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: "The National Journal" named Senator Kerry the most liberal senator of all. That's saying something, in that bunch. You might say that took a lot of hard work.

JOHNS: That is technically true for 2003, but it is far from the whole story. Kerry's lifetime rating puts him as the 11th most liberal senator. Once he started running for president his voting attendance fell off dramatically throwing "The National Journal" methodology way off.

"The Journal" tossed out all his votes on social and foreign policy because he hadn't cast enough votes on those issues. And based Kerry's ranking solely on his domestic policy votes, on 22 of 62 total votes cast. Without the full accounting, "The National Journal" lifetime ranking of Kerry as the 11th most liberal senator is more fair than the label of most liberal.

For his part, Kerry appears to have overstated the number of lost jobs since Bush took office.

SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president has presided over an economy where we have lost 1.6 million jobs, the first president in 72 years to lose jobs.

JOHNS: Kerry says the economy has lost 1.6 million jobs since 2001. That's true if all you're considering is the private sector. If you add the government jobs created during that period, the net job loss is 821,000, almost half the figure Kerry cited. All in all at first glance, the vast majority of assertions had although least some basis in fact, but when it suited their ends, both candidate left out the other side of the story. Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And CNN is your campaign headquarters. If you missed last night's debate you can watch and encore presentation today at 2:00 p.m. Eastern.

The candidate's square off again next week. CNN will bring you the third presidential debate live from Tempe, Arizona. Our coverage begins next Wednesday, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

The issues, the statements and how undecided voters reacted. Coming up the focus group reaction and the key differences between men and women in how they viewed the debate.

Also, the gracious Southern city by the sea. Our weekend getaways heads to Charleston, South Carolina. That is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Charleston offers so much, history, charm and all that during the fall season, no less. The South Carolina city is filled with grand architecture, history, festivals and low-country food and famous Southern accents.

Janice Kahn has run a tour business in Charleston for three decades, making her an expert on the city.

Janice, good to see you.

JANICE KAHN, CHARLESTON HISTORIAN: Thanks so much for having me.

WHITFIELD: It's always fun to talk about one of my favorite cities. We know it's a very picturesque place during spring and summer. Why are you trying to convince folks that fall is a great time to enjoy Charleston?

KAHN: That's a great question. The reason is the weather. It's perfect. We had a little liquid sunshine this morning to water our beautiful flowers that are in bloom. We have plumbago (ph), and sage, the camellias, the sasanquas (ph), and the fragrance of the tea olive and also the ginger.

It's a great time to come, because there are flowers in bloom at this time of the year and the weather is perfect temperature wise.

WHITFIELD: Wow. So, once you get there, what are the highlights you really need to take advantage of? I know the gardens are beautiful as you just described. What are some of the other things?

KAHN: One of the things I always like to recommend is we are a city that has so many old and historic churches and synagogues, and I recommend that they go to see the ones of their faith. We have very old protestant churches, the oldest Catholic Church in the Carolinas and Georgia, the oldest synagogue in continuous use. And a very old AME Church, if they would go to some of these places, which are a bit unusual, because the architecture is beautiful. And then also they see where their ancestors originally were here in Charleston.

WHITFIELD: What is so neat is as you take in all these sights from the churches, to the historic homes, et cetera, you can do it in many different ways right? You have walking tours, you can always get on the horse and buggy. What's your best advice?

KAHN: The best advice is anything is wonderful in Charleston, no matter what type of tour that you take. So, certainly, we have van tours. You can do the walking tours. You can get private guides. You can even pick up a little book that tells you about where some of the sights are.

By all means, go to our visitor information center. That is so important, because you can pick up brochures. There's so much to do here. I try to tailor make my tours to what people want, because the spectrum is so large here.

WHITFIELD: It sounds like it's by adults primarily. You still encourage it there are some family oriented stuff?

KAHN: Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Yes, that's the most important thing, we have things for, for instance, our children, Justin, David and Cynthia take our grandchildren to the children's museum, which is here, to aquarium and they're not only fish there, but there are animals.

They learn conservation, about how the water comes from the Appalachians down to the ocean here.

WHITFIELD: Wow, so much to take in.

KAHN: Lots of things. It's a family city.

WHITFIELD: Janice Kahn, Charleston, South Carolina, historian. Thanks so much. We're ready to book our flights and pack up the cars and head your way.

KAHN: Come on down real soon.

WHITFIELD: Thanks so much.

On now to presidential politics, which candidate won last night's debate in your view? The real-time reaction of some undecided voters and answers that might surprise you. That's right ahead on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: During last night's presidential debate, CNN's Bill Hemmer watched with a group of mostly independent viewers who kept their fingers on the pulse of the exchanges.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORESPONDENT (voice over): On the campus of Ohio State University, 24 mostly undecided men and women formed their own town hall meeting. Among them, retired teachers and homemakers, a jeweler, a student and landscaper, rating the candidates on a scale of one to 10 using handheld meters, the women were registered in yellow, the men in blue.

The president received a significant spike when he was asked about the draft.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're not going to have a draft, period. The all-volunteer army works. It works particularly when we pay our troops well. It works when we make sure they have housing, like we have done in the last military budgets.

HEMMER: Several minutes later, Senator Kerry impressed our voters when he made a promise directly to the camera.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am not going to raise taxes. I have a tax cut. Here is my tax cut. I raise the childcare credit by $1,000 for families to help them be able to take care of their kids. I have a $4,000 tuition tax credit that goes to parents and kids if they're earning for themselves to be able to pay for college.

HEMMER: Throughout the 90-minute format, men, in general, gave Senator Kerry higher marks and women rated President Bush higher. Some say they were swayed by the candidates, others though, still needed to hear more.

JON MORRIS, EMOTIONAL RESPONSE MODELING: We find people are ether very negative against Bush or very positive for Bush. On the other hand, with Kerry, we find about four different distinct groups. People are positive, some are a little less excited about him, some people are negative about him.

LARRY ROSS, INSURANCE AGENT: I think Bush stuck with what he said he was going to do, what his message has been all along. And I think Kerry there, again, was on the negative attack.

WESLEY CLARKSON, CLERICAL WORKER: He straight up lied to American people tonight, like he did on the war in terrorism.

HEMMER: In the end, 11 in our group said Senator Kerry won this debate, 11 said President Bush won, and two said it was a tie. A sample that mirrors the tight race across the nation. Bill Hemmer, CNN, Columbus, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Still much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. In a few moments, "In The Money".

Then at 2:00 Eastern, your chance to see it all again. We will replay last night's presidential debate in its entirety.

And at 4, CNN LIVE SATURDAY, today looking at dieting and the hardest part of losing weight.

First, Susan Lisovicz has a preview of IN THE MONEY.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN ANCHOR, IN THE MONEY: Thanks.

Coming up on IN THE MONEY, don't be a stranger. See if the boom in voter registration will really mean a bigger turn out on election day.

Also, ahead, sure shots and near misses. There is a flu vaccine shortage, again. We'll look at how to stop the problem.

And spenders ed, find out how to teach your kids to handle their money the smart way. All of that and more after this quick check of the headlines.

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