Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Saturday

Fans, Players Brawl At NBA Game; President Bush Pushes For Talks With North Korea At APEC Sumit Today; Moderate Muslims Unite To Push For Change

Aired November 20, 2004 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Coach Larry Brown says it's the ugliest thing he's seen as a coach or player. What happens now to these players and fans involved in last night's basketball brawl?
An interview with Prince William. Just how are those studies coming along?

And how early is too early to start thawing out your turkey for Thanksgiving? Dr. Lloyd joins us with tips on keeping Thanksgiving safe.

Hello and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. I'm Fredericka Whitfield. Those stories and more coming up. But first, a look at the headlines.

Trade, terrorism and nukes all were topics on President Bush's agenda today as he addressed the APEC summit. Leaders from 21 Pacific Rim countries are in attendance at the annual conference in Santiago, Chile. We'll have a live report in a few minutes.

Relief and gratitude today in Warsaw. A Polish woman abducted by Iraqi militants in Baghdad last month has been freed. The 54-year-old woman is married to an Iraqi man and has dual citizenship. She refused to discuss details of her release, but said her captors treated her quote, "properly" while she was being held hostage.

And finally, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice is back at her Washington home after undergoing treatment for uterine fibroids. Rice was released this morning from Georgetown University Hospital and is expected to return to work on Monday.

We begin on Capitol Hill where it is a working Saturday for Congress. And there is late word on a defeat, or at least a temporary defeat on a bill that would mean big changes for the U.S. intelligence. CNN congressional correspondent Joe johns joins us now -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Fredericka, first congressional negotiators thought they had a deal on intelligence reform, but it turns out not to be so today. A series of meetings after key conservatives raised concerns about the bill, particularly on issues relating to immigration.

There have also been, as we know all along, problems with this bill between conservatives and others in the Congress on the formulation of a national intelligence director, one person to control intelligence in the United States. Of course, the question there was how much control over the budget should he or she have?

A series of meetings on Capitol Hill with Republicans, with conservatives, including one in the office of House Speaker Dennis Hastert. At the end of the day now, we are being told by numerous sources that there will be no vote on intelligence reform despite the fact that the conferees did think they had a deal.

Meanwhile, of course, here on Capitol Hill, the work continues on that gigantic $388 billion omnibus spending bill to wrap up the work of the Congress for this session. This is to pay, of course, for a myriad, a variety of different programs in the government across the government over the 2005 fiscal year. The House of Representatives taking that up today, the Senate as well. Fredericka, back to you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Now, about the spending bill, then I want to go back to the intelligence reform bill, too. But for now, the spending bill.

There are a number of things that are tucked away in the spending bill. And you mentioned earlier, Alcee Hastings was among those who said we just don't have enough time to go through all of it. And apparently one of those items deals with abortion. What -- you know, what kind of, I guess, you know, room or wiggle room is there on some of these measures that some of these congressional leaders are saying they don't have a complete understanding of before they're ready to sign off on them?

JOHNS: Right. This is an issue that has been debated somewhat in the House of Representatives, much less so in the Senate of the United States. The question was whether hospitals like Catholic Hospitals around the country that have an objection of conscience to doing abortions should be allowed not to do abortions and still get federal funding. Well, a provision was slipped into the bill that would allow such hospitals to still get federal funding even if they didn't do abortions.

Of course, that has been opposed in the House of Representatives by pro-choice groups. It's also, of course, being opposed by Senator Barbara Boxer, among others, from California over on the Senate side. She thinks it's the wrong idea, and it will have unintended consequences and will cause women, particularly some women who were victims of sexual abuse not to be able to get abortions that they need.

So it's a continuing fight. Democrats are saying it's the kind of issue that shows you where the Congress is headed as it becomes increasingly conservative. Republicans are saying it's a relatively small deal -- Fredericka.

WHITFIELD: OK. Now back to the intelligence reform bill. You said no vote for now, but is there any hope there on the hill that they will be able to address this matter before the next Congress convenes in January? JOHNS: Well, that seems to be the case. It seems to be the case that they are trying to hold out hope and not close down on the Congress of the United States, the 108th, at least not yet tonight, sort of keep the books open for these folks to negotiate, come to some conclusion and push it through.

Of course, the president of the United States personally intervened to try to get this bill passed at the last moment, making calls from Chile to Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, who was one of the conservatives who was trying to stop the immigration issues on this bill, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Joe johns on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

Well as Joe mentioned, President Bush is monitoring the developments from Chile and has tried to influence the vote in some way, shape or form, but to no avail so far. He's at the APEC summit in Santiago, Chile. And in the last hour, he addressed the forum.

CNN White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with Mr. Bush. And Dana, he's made his phone calls to Washington to try to work out something. This is a reform bill that was very close and dear to his heart. What is the reaction from the White House?

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're certainly monitoring events through their aides back in Washington here, trying to see the latest. As you just heard from Joe it sort of seems to have been a roller coaster day, thinking that perhaps they would get a deal now, perhaps it looks a little less likely.

But as you just heard Joe report, President Bush did make a call or two that some Democrats, certainly a lot of Democrats, even some Republicans, thought that he should have made some time ago on this bill to try to push it along. As I said, they're going to sort of wait and see what happens from here.

But here at the summit, Fredericka, President Bush does have a clear priority, and that is to restart talks on North Korea, on its nuclear program, to try to end that nuclear program. And those talks have been stalled for about 5 months.

Now Mr. Bush had a series of one on one meetings this morning on the sidelines of the official summit with 4 key leaders, 4 leaders, one each from South Korea, Japan, Russia and China, all parties to the so-called 6-way negotiations on North Korea. And Mr. Bush, as you just said, did give a speech within the last hour, saying that North Korea, after those talks, should have no doubt about how their neighbors feel about their nuclear program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I can report to you today, having visited with the other nations involved in that collaborative effort, that the will is strong, that the effort is united, and the message is clear to Mr. Kim Jong-il: Get rid of your nuclear weapons programs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, North Korea pulled out of scheduled talks on this issue in September. Many believe because they were waiting to see what happened in the U.S. elections to see if Senator Kerry would win. He is somebody who supported one on one direct talks with the U.S. and North Korea. That is something that President Bush has rejected for a couple of years since he pushed the 6-way talks.

And officials say that the reality of the election results came up in almost all of Mr. Bush's meetings with the partners in North Korea today. And even president Hu of China said that he has sent officials to Pyongyang, and that they do understand the reality of the election results, that they will have to deal with Mr. Bush and his approach here. And even expressed some optimism that perhaps they will return to the table, even maybe by the end of the year.

Now, of course, North Korea was one topic that came up with Russian president, President Vladimir Putin. But another is something that Mr. Bush had to broach, we're told, is something that he is concerned about, and that is whether or not somebody who has called his good friend, Vladimir, is really committed to democracy, concerned about his consolidating power within the Kremlin and whether or not he actually believes in checks and balances.

We are told that this was an energetic discussion and that Mr. Bush looks forward to more discussions in the future, sort of diplospeak, we're saying that perhaps he wasn't satisfied with what he heard from President Putin -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Dana Bash in Santiago, Chile, traveling with the president. Thanks so much.

Well back here in the U.S., it's a case of hoops, punches and videotape. Police are investigating a violent fight that broke out during basketball last night in suburban Detroit. Four players have already been suspended by the NBA. CNN's Matt Morrison is here with details and the pretty shocking tape.

MATT MORRISON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. The tape is going to be seen for several days ahead, and it certainly was something we won't soon forget, that's for sure. The incident left players, coaches, fans and officials shaken. The NBA responded by suspending 4 players indefinitely, and the investigation is ongoing.

It happened towards the end of the Pacers' win over the Pistons. Ron Artest was involved with a late scuffle with Ben Wallace. But when a fan threw a beverage on him, he went into the fans and started wailing on the guy. Stephen Jackson, his teammate comes in, you'll see him land a punch on another guy who threw a beverage.

Fans punching players, players punching fans, challenges. This is just absolutely nasty.

Again, the NBA reviewed the tapes. They have suspended Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson as well as teamate Jermaine O'Neal indefinitely. Ben Wallace of the Pistons is also among those suspended in what the NBA commissioner, David Stern, is calling a shocking, repulsive and inexcusable incident.

Certainly the sweep-up from this that happened last night will continue for a long time. Certainly a very difficult episode for the NBA to recover from. That's Jermaine O'Neal getting taken off the floor.

Again, 4 players suspended indefinitely. The review of the tape continues. And police officials in Auburn Hills, Michigan, are also looking at that tape. I'm certain that there will be repercussions in terms of some fans involved, because there was despicable behavior on both ends, both the professionals and the fans.

WHITFIELD: This really does a lot of damage to the image of the NBA, which was already being criticized in recent years for a lot of players just being, you know, a little less than dignified.

MORRISON: Fan friendly. And you know, and they've worked hard on a campaign to try to overcome any perceived public relations issues. And certainly this is a situation that sets any of that back for a long time. Only because many arenas around the nation are very fan-friendly. There's a lot of good that is going on in the NBA. A lot of player participation in charitiable events, but something like this sort of spreads the black cloud over everybody. And, of course, NBA Commissioner David Stern stepped in quickly today.

Again, 4 players suspended indefinitely. And it's just something that -- you scratch your head and say, OK, it's time to start from square one.

WHITFIELD: And there still could be criminal charges that come later on in the week.

MORRISON: That's correct.

WHITFIELD: We'll be waiting for that.

All right. Thanks so much, Matt Morrison.

MORRISON: OK, Fredericka.

WHITFIELD: Well, is it ever OK to taser a 6-year-old child? It happened to this child right here. And Miami police are asking themselves just that question. Why?

In the Muslim community, a movement starts this week to introduce changes. The question is, is there a place for change?

And later, umbrella mishaps of the political kind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well welcome back. We're waiting for House Speaker Dennis Hastert to take to the microphones there on Capitol Hill. He's likely to going to be commenting about the fact that Congress failed to vote, for now, on an intelligence reform bill, one that many expected Congress would be voting on. But apparently a number of conservatives are still upset about a few portions of that measure and still need to be working it out before the 108th Congress ends their session and before a new one convenes in January. When that press conference takes place, we'll be bringing that to you.

Now news across America, off it goes into the wild blue yonder. Shortly after noon eastern, NASA's swift spacecraft hitched a ride aboard a Delta II rocket into the stratosphere. Swift is being sent to study the connection between gamma ray bursts and the formation of black holes in space.

In suburban Atlanta, one of 2 13-year-old girls accused of bringing poisoned cake to school is released from police custody. She's now under parental supervision. The other girl remains at a juvenile shelter while testing on the cake is complete. About a dozen of the girls' classmates became ill after eating that cake. The suspects each face 12 counts of aggravated assault with intent to commit murder.

And the Georgia crematory operator charged with burial fraud pleads guilty to 787 counts against him. In exchange for those pleas, Roy Brent Marsh is expected to serve no more than 12 years in prison. Marsh will also be fined. And is required to write apologies to more than 300 families whose relatives' bodies were dumped instead of cremated.

In Miami, two recent incidents are causing local police to take a hard look at the use of taser or stun guns. In both cases, the taser guns were used to subdue children, one was just 6 years old. CNN's Susan Candiotti with more on that case and the controversy that has erupted.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CNN has seen photographs of the 6-year-old boy shortly after he was Tasered by police. Four adults, including two police officers, had him cornered in a school office. This photo provided by the boy's attorneys shows mark on the first grader's torso, a small puncture wound near the top of his chest, a larger bruise below his waist.

CARMEN VIZCAINO, ATTORNEY: We've managed to educate children and discipline them for hundreds of years in the absence of a Taser. The fact that anyone would have the position that we had no choice but to use a Taser I find to be preposterous.

CANDIOTTI: The youngster is just under 3.5-feet tall and, according to the family, weighs 53 pounds.

DAVID GORDON, BOY'S ATTORNEY: It's outrageous to me that these grown adults would use that type of discretion on a grown child.

CANDIOTTI: A Taser shoots...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: As promised, we're goign to take you to Capitol Hill. A setback for the Bush administration. So far no vote on an intelligence reform bill that lawmakers were expected to pass. Here's House Speaker Dennis Hastert.

(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)

WHITFIELD: All right. You're listening to House Speaker Dennis Hastert saying they are going to continue to work on this intelligence reform bill and that the 108th Congress will not adjourn just yet. They're not ready to throw in the towel.

Our Joe Johns is on Capital Hill. He has been keeping watch of watch of this special meeting of Congress all day today. And more specifically, Joe, the House Speaker said that they want to work on language so as not to jeopardize the troops on the ground, particularly when it comes to figuring out the chain of command. What does he mean exactly?

JOHNS: Well, there has been all along a real question as this bill went forward as to whether the national intelligence director, who was being put into place for the first time, would have full control over, not just the budget, but over realtime intelligence. The Defense Department always wanted to make sure that it maintained control over realtime tactical intelligence on the ground in battlefield situations.

And apparently this has come up as an issue raised by Chairman Duncan Hunter of the Armed Services Committee, one of two members of Congress -- leading members of Congress who has been raising objections here.

And it's a fascinating development on Capitol Hill, in part, because the president of the United States used so much of his own political capital, calling from Chile to talk to one chairman and working behind the scenes and other ways to try to make this happen. The Speaker of the House himself also said he thought they had many of the questions addressed.

So in some ways, this may be viewed retrospectively as a rebellion, perhaps temporarily, if they do come back in December and work out the final language.

What is most interesting here is that the Republican Congress, firmly in control, has not been able to force this bill down the throats of its conservative members, Fredericka.

WHITFIELD: All right. So after the holidays, the Thanksgiving holidays, we just may see them back in action on the Hill in December before the 109th Congress, then, convenes in January.

JOHNS: Certainly. That seems to be the case. They do want to keep working at it.

And there is a concern among a large number of these members. And that is about the possibility of a terrorist attack while they try to work on the language of this legislation. There's great fear that if they have a terrorist attack and the legislation is not finished, the voters will come to them and say why didn't you get this thing done?

WHITFIELD: All right. Joe Johns on Capitol Hill, thanks so much for that.

And we'll be right back with more of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BRAEK)

WHITFIELD: Some Muslims want to introduce a more moderate vision of Islam in the U.S., one that allows men to worship next to women and even gays. But the idea is not going over well in more conservative circles.

Our Kathleen Koch reports on the cultural clash between those calling for change and those resisting it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Single mother Asra Nomani is preparing the post-Ramadan celebration away from her mosque in Morgantown, West Virginia. The Muslim writer may be banned from there, because she refused to enter the back door and pray separately upstairs with the other women. Nomani months earlier had made a pilgrimage to Mecca.

ASRA NOMANI, PROGERSSIVE MUSLIM: There were no back doors, there were no separate areas. So when I was faced with that in my mosque in Morgantown, I knew that this wasn't necessary.

KOCH: Nomani is part of a fledgling movement gaining support among some American Muslims. A Web site, Muslimwakeup.com showcases its issues: a broarder role for women, gay rights, more tolerance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our issues have to be out there.

KOCH: In New York this week, advocates founded the first national organization devoted to liberal Muslim goals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an attempt to begin to give a voice to what we believe are really millions of people around the country that have had enough, have had enough of the ultraconservativism that prevails in many Muslim institutions, that feel really disaffected and unwanted.

KOCH: One issue, says Muslim writer, is that many who regularly attend mosques in the U.S. are immigrants with a more conservative view of Islam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're not oftentimes attuned enough to the fact that the American-Muslim population is American. And so there's a level of cultural fluidity of gender norms that people come to expect in society, that right now do not, in fact, exist at the mosques.

KOCH: The mosque in Morgantown says its progressive Muslims like Nomani who are out of touch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Issues like men and women praying side by side and gay rights are not going to be accepted by mainstream Islam anytime soon and maybe never.

KOCH: But Nomani says, particularly after 9/11, moderates must keep pushing for change.

NOMANI: We can't allow closed doors and closed hearts and closed minds to define our Muslim world.

KOCH: Kathleen Koch, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Now to the war in Iraq. And reports of progress and setbacks today.

A polish woman taken hostage by militants last month has been freed and is now in Poland. Teresa Borcz Khalifa is married to an Iraqi man and has dual citizenship. She has lived in Iraq many years.

Nine people were killed in attacks across Iraq's capital today, including one civilian killed in a car bombing in central Baghdad. Witnesses say the car exploded shortly after a U.S. convoy passed.

Insurgents and U.S. forces traded gunfire on the road leading to Baghdad's airport. In separate attacks in the city, rebels targeted a U.S. patrol and an Iraqi police station.

One U.S. soldier was killed, nine others wounded. Four government employees were assassinated. Three Iraqi troops and one Iraqi police officer were killed.

In the northern town of Mosul, the U.S. military has found nine bodies of Iraqi soldiers. All of them were shot in the backs of the head. Seven of them had also been decapitated.

Instability in Iraq and the killing of aid workers there has forced many relief agencies to pull their people out. That's creating an added burden for U.S. forces filling the humanitarian void.

Ronald Waldman is a professor at Columbia University. He's an expert on the consequences, as well, of pulling aid from a region in conflict.

Good to see you, professor.

PROF. RONALD WALDMAN, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Pleasure to be here.

WHITFIELD: Well, after the reported death of Margaret Hassan, who led CARE International, and now we're also learning the abductions of other aid workers, there are a number of groups, in fact, the majority of non-government agency groups in Iraq who have pulled out.

Can you have a successful rebuilding effort without these kinds of volunteer groups?

WALDMAN: I would say not in the immediate time frame, you know. Many of these organizations, during the fighting, have been working mostly in areas that have been relatively stable and secure. It's precisely in those areas that assistance is probably less needed.

Where it's most needed now is in those areas where communities are being destroyed, where schools and health clinics aren't functioning. And it's in those areas where aid cannot reach. So it's a very paradoxical situation and quite frustrating for the international community.

WHITFIELD: And these aid workers have always been known to be very courageous, special, very brave people, to stare at the face of danger on a regular basis in places of conflict while trying to present some sort of aid, whether it's in the form of food or water or even medical care.

Give us a sense now as to what the psychology behind a lot of these aid workers may be right now, knowing that there is this great need that they would love to helpful fill, but really feel like they can't, because it's just too unsafe.

WALDMAN: It's very frustrating. The bottom line is that war and humanitarian assistance are incompatible pursuits.

It's very difficult for people to stand by, who, as you point out, are so highly motivated and who devote long periods of their lives to providing assistance to those in greatest need.

But when there's insecurity, when there's violence, sometimes it becomes absolutely impossible to do so. And there's nothing to do but to continue to stand aside and watch people suffering through very difficult periods.

WHITFIELD: Does it, indeed, seem like it's become worse, that the safety or the risks that many of these aid workers are taking seems to be much greater, or is it just something unique about the war in Iraq that has underscored or highlighted their vulnerabilities?

WALDMAN: No, this isn't particularly new. I think there are changes that have occurred, both in the nature of war, which we don't fight anymore by having armies go out to a field outside of town and line up and fight across battle lines.

Now civilians are involved. Now it's cities, urban areas that are most affected.

And it's the same with humanitarian assistance. Many of these people are highly affected. And it becomes very frustrating to not be able to provide the assistance that the population needs.

WHITFIELD: Does it -- does it now consent to search you that perhaps the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan has now forever changed the view or the commitment of these aid agencies to want to help in conflict regions?

WALDMAN: I think the desire will always be there. But I think that what we've learned is that it seems to be quite important that these international humanitarian agencies be able to maintain a distance from the fighting forces. Their independence is important.

I think a lot of the attacks on these agencies that are occurring really occur for two principle reasons. And one is that they are, as you say, courageous. They're out in the community. They're visible targets. Their abduction, their murder provides a great deal of publicity to those people who benefit from that.

But also, their role is intermingled. It's impossible to separate it, in some people's eyes, from the roles of what is seen as the aggressors, of the military forces. And so re-establishing their independence and letting everyone know that their role is not there to be part of the fight but rather part of the recovery, I think would be a crucial element.

WHITFIELD: All right. Professor at Columbia University Ronald Waldman, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

WALDMAN: You're welcome.

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back with more on CNN SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Welcome back.

Everything from trade to nuclear threats is on the agenda at the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation forum in Chile. President Bush addressed business leaders at the summit about an hour ago, calling for open societies and open markets. He also highlighted the efforts of five APEC members to convince North Korea to stop pursuing nuclear weapons.

Mr. Bush also said Iran's suspected weapons program is a very serious matter. He has included both countries in what he calls the axis of evil.

President Bush is getting a somewhat chilly reception while in Chile. Besides protests leading up to his arrival, Latin America is sending warning signals on a larger scale.

CNN's Lucia Newman reports, it's turning its attention from the U.S. to another trading superpower.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not so long ago, the visit of a U.S. president to Chile inspired more flattering coverage. But then, times have changed.

"We reject the warlike attitude of the United States against world peace," says this man.

But it's not just criticism of the Iraq war and the growth of globalization. Staunch supporters of free trade complain that since 9/11, the White House has ignored Latin America.

That's why at the APEC summit, the United States' traditional backyard partners are looking past their northern neighbor and focusing their gaze to the east, towards Asia, especially China, to do business.

ALEJANDRO FOXLEY, FORMER CHILEAN FINANCE MINISTER: The contract for 20 years in which you have a partner that will buy everything you produce for the next generation. And that's, as I say, gives a tremendous stability to the economies in Latin America.

NEWMAN: The interest is mutual. After visiting Latin American giants, Brazil and Argentina, China's president arrived in Santiago, not just to attend APEC, but to discuss a free trade agreement with Chile, the world's No. 1 copper producer.

Latin American commodities, from minerals to meat, are being gobbled up by China, which is quickly displacing the United States as the region's No. 1 trading partner.

Alejandro Foxley says the U.S. needs to rapidly take a more multilateral approach towards Latin America and not just on security.

FOXLEY: You either cooperate and build bridges with everybody, or you will be a losing partner in globalization.

WHITFIELD (on camera): Latin America's Asian love fest has not gone unnoticed in Washington, according to U.S. sources. What the United States plans to do about it may begin to be answered this weekend.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Santiago, Chile.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: The big turkey holiday is just around the corner. And help with the holiday is on the way.

DR. BILL LLOYD, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, DAVIS MEDICAL CENTER: Fredericka, whether you like the white meat or the dark meat, I'll have the cold hard facts on how to thaw this gobbler when CNN LIVE SATURDAY continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, CNN LIVE SATURDAY is ahead in about an hour and 15 minutes or so from now. Carol Lin hosting. What you got on tap?

CAROL LIN, HOST, CNN LIVE SATURDAY: Good. We're going to be talking about two very dangerous incidences at Los Angeles International Airport where, in one particular case, two jets came within 12 seconds of crashing. There is a problem at that airport. And I've got the vice chairman of the NTSB -- a former vice chairman of the NTSB to talk about that and what changes need to be made at major airports around the country. Ten o'clock, continuing the discussion about this huge basketball brawl.

WHITFIELD: Boy, what a mess.

LIN: I know. It really is a mess. I'm going to be talking with Kenny Smith, former veteran NBA player, about this. He's now a sports analyst with Turner Sports. He co-hosted -- he co-hosts with one of the bad boys of basketball.

But nevertheless, we're going to get Kenny's take on what happened and whether players have a right, frankly, to go after fans and defend themselves.

WHITFIELD: Well, and it's a tough activity to defend either way you look at it.

LIN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: But I've heard the point of view of some of the players who are, like, you know, once the fans come on the court, it's their house, you know. Their rules.

LIN: But when do you have the right to pummel somebody...

WHITFIELD: No kidding.

LIN: ... under any circumstances?

WHITFIELD: Right.

LIN: But that's why it's our hot topic at 10 p.m. tonight.

WHITFIELD: And it will be sizzling. All right. Carol Lin, thanks so much.

Well, time now for "Living Well." And this week we focus on holiday health.

The last thing you want to do is make your Thanksgiving guests sick through improper food handling. Dr. Bill Lloyd is here to tell you what you need to do to make sure your holiday feast doesn't run afoul and you've got your fowl right there.

It's still frozen, though, isn't it?

LLOYD: It sure is, Fredericka. Our first guest has arrived. But we have to start thinking about a safe timetable as to when we want to start thawing this thing.

You know, when I was growing up, my mother would take this big frozen bird and put it in the kitchen sink the night before Thanksgiving, put a towel over it. And in the morning you had a thawed bird. It's remarkable that any of us survived.

WHITFIELD: I think everybody's mom did it that way. And still do. But you're saying there are other better ways to do it?

LLOYD: There are. There are three safe ways to thaw that turkey. And the first way is to use a refrigerator.

You want to allow about four pounds per day for your turkey. And keep a pan underneath it, because there's going to be drippings. Always keep the turkey in the original container when you're thawing it.

The next step, if you've run out of time and you've done the math and you realized, "I should have thawed this thing yesterday," is to use cold water. And Fredericka, there you want to allow 30 minutes per pound of turkey. It's going to keep you busy all day, because you're supposed to change the water every 30 minutes, as well. So cold water's another good way.

WHITFIELD: That's a lot of work.

LLOYD: Now, the final -- the final last-minute way is to use your microwave oven. And for that, you should consult the manual that came with your microwave oven.

And remember, if you thaw with a microwave, you have to immediately go from the microwave to the oven and actually cook the bird. Don't put it back in the refrigerator, because all raw turkeys, whether they're fresh or formerly frozen, are covered -- covered with germs.

WHITFIELD: Wow! All right. Food poisoning is one thing. So when you get the bird in the oven, there are some other problems that you need to look out for, as well. What are they?

LLOYD: Well, you know, Thanksgiving's such a big, complex meal. And so there's different stages that are going on throughout the day. And many different people are running in and out of the kitchen. So everybody has to practice good hand washing.

A couple of other important tips, though. When you use things like cutting boards, the little scratches and cracks inside can harbor lots of germs, so you have to continuously clean the kitchen as you go along.

And about utensils, use different utensils for different courses. Don't be stirring the stuffing and then go ahead and mix up the mashed potatoes. Use a separate spoon or wash them between the different courses, or you could be spreading germs from the turkey to the cutting board, from the gravy, to the stuffing.

WHITFIELD: Oh, my gosh. Wow! All right. So as a guest, you're hoping that everyone's taken the proper precautions and they were listening to you, Dr. Lloyd. But sometimes it doesn't always work out that way.

So as a guest, what can you do to kind of keep yourself safe? And at the same time, be courteous?

LLOYD: Well, if it's a sit-down meal you'd usually be served a hot plate. And for the most part, it ought to be safe. The trouble comes when there's a buffet.

Now, if you're like me, you always arrive early for parties, so the food is there and it's fresh and piping hot and ready to enjoy. But if you're on a busy social schedule or you're going from party to party, you may get there, and the food may not be the right temperature.

So always check to make sure that the plates are piping hot. You may decide instead to simply go with an extra piece of pumpkin pie.

WHITFIELD: Right. Or I'll just have a beverage, please. Thanks. I'm dieting.

All right. So holidays overall really can be rather stressful, though. You've got family together. You've got a lot of guests in the house. And sometimes, you know, people don't always get along and are not always on their best behavior.

LLOYD: Oh, Fredericka, you're right. Many guests at family gatherings that may only happen once or twice a year bring more than an appetite. They may bring an attitude or even a grudge.

So think carefully about your guest list. If you've got people, you know, formerly divorced people, stepchildren where there may be trouble, you might have two functions, maybe a morning brunch and then an evening dinner, to keep those potentially hostile guests separated from one another.

Focus on the celebration. Make sure there's plenty of music and activities to allow people to think about the holiday rather than the person sitting next to them.

You can control trouble by limiting the amount of alcohol that's served at your party. Not only will they arrive home safe, but they may not cause any trouble inside your own home, as well.

Sometimes you can't plan on two parties. And if you know there's going to be a potential for trouble, get some allies. That is other family members, Fredericka, who are ready to intervene in the event that trouble breaks out or there are hard feelings.

WHITFIELD: Peacemakers.

LLOYD: And finally, think about the children and explain to them the difficult situations that may be there between different guests. And if you sense any trouble coming along, be sure you get the children out of the line of fire.

WHITFIELD: Wow! All great advice. And so there you go. Turkey day isn't all about just stuffing your face and eating. But you've got to be polite, and everyone's got to get along.

Dr. Bill Lloyd.

LLOYD: They certainly do.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks so much. Have a great holiday.

LLOYD: Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

WHITFIELD: You, too. Thanks.

All right. Britain's Prince William is finishing his college studies, and he's expected to leave the secure confines of St. Andrew's University in Scotland next spring. And while he's second in line to the British throne, William says he's not sure what he's going to do next.

CNN's Diana Muriel has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An ordinary student on his way to lectures. But Prince William is no ordinary student. He's second in line to the British throne.

These pictures offer a glimpse of the young prince's life at university. Like many students, he's behind in his courses.

CHARLES WARREN, PRINCE WILLIAM'S TUTOR: And what about the glacial essay?

PRINCE WILLIAM, IN LINE FOR BRITISH THRONE: It hasn't materialized at all. I've done a few minutes of reading.

MURIEL: Still, his geography tutor admires his princely pupil.

WARREN: He's worked really hard not to let his presence disrupt his fellow students' existence and keep a low profile, pull his weight, become one of the crowd. So no one -- no one lifts an eyebrow these days when he walks around.

MURIEL: That's not entirely true. William still turns heads. But he has a strong and supportive group of friends.

PRINCE WILLIAM: Look at that. What can I say?

MURIEL: Next May, the 22-year-old prince leaves the safe confines of his Scottish university. William admits he hasn't decided what he wants to do. But the army is a possibility.

PRINCE WILLIAM: If I was going to join the army, which I believe the armed forces, it would be probably my favorite, or to do something different. In family, we join the navy, and I'd like to do something different. The army's -- it's obviously a lot more in the spotlight at the moment.

MURIEL: What he does know is that life outside university will never be as private again. And that could be tough. PRINCE WILLIAM: I am, you know, pretty normal, not really the sort of fanfare of excitement, but I rise to the occasion when I need to.

MURIEL: William says he plans to take time off to travel when he leaves school next year, while he decides what to do next.

Diana Muriel, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, they were singing in the rain this week in Little Rock. Coming up, the problems the biggest names in politics have with trying to stay dry from the downpour. Whoops. Jeanne Moos has that story when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, mad dogs and Englishmen may go out in the midday sun. But it's American politicians who apparently don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain.

CNN's Jeanne Moos unfurls her wit on the topic of umbrellas and their use and misuse in Arkansas this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you're a manly politician, there is an unwritten rule: ditch the wimpy umbrella, even when the camera gets to wear a raincoat.

But in this case...

BONO (singing): When the rain comes, they run and hide their heads...

MOOS: ... even the manliest of politicians was forced to hide his head, giving us a rare glimpse of leaders skewered by their spouses.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN (singing): Oh, say can you see...

MOOS: See? Chelsea was almost blinded by her mom's umbrella. And Senator Clinton was herself bonked.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: ... the dedication of this extraordinary institution.

MOOS: Usually, being tall is an advantage for a politician, but it only made John Kerry more of a target, while President Bush had to check under an umbrella to make sure he got the right wife.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Welcome to my rainy library dedication.

MOOS: Bubba may have "rained" supreme, but Jimmy Carter got the caption, "Once a president, always a gentleman," for wiping off his wife's seat.

And the elder George Bush donated his raincoat for Laura Bush to sit on, though he eventually took it back.

They were singing in the rain...

(MUSIC)

MOOS: ... and praying in the rain, but mostly they were dripping in the rain.

For security purposes, organizers handed out umbrellas without pointy tips.

VIPs like Al Franken were given ponchos from Wal-Mart. John Glen looked more like a blue Teletubby than an astronaut. Even Bono surrendered to the elements.

BONO: Can I chicken out?

MOOS: Back in 1841, President William Henry Harrison spoke at his inauguration in pouring rain, declining the offer of an overcoat. He died within the month of pneumonia, no doubt a coincidence.

B. CLINTON: If my beloved mother were here, she would remind me that rain is liquid sunshine.

MOOS: The soldier holding the umbrella didn't seem too convinced. He got almost as much face time as P. Diddy's manservant.

But we wondered why, in the downpour, Mr. Clinton still had to lick his fingers.

There is one good thing about huddling under an umbrella: like two peas in a soggy pod, umbrellas inspire intimacy.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And that's all we have time for right now. But stay with CNN. Up next, "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," in depth on Condoleezza Rice.

Then at 6 Eastern on CNN LIVE SATURDAY. And at 7 Eastern, "THE CAPITAL GANG," interviewing Florida Senator-elect Mel Martinez.

I'll be back after a quick break with today's top stories.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired November 20, 2004 - 16:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Coach Larry Brown says it's the ugliest thing he's seen as a coach or player. What happens now to these players and fans involved in last night's basketball brawl?
An interview with Prince William. Just how are those studies coming along?

And how early is too early to start thawing out your turkey for Thanksgiving? Dr. Lloyd joins us with tips on keeping Thanksgiving safe.

Hello and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. I'm Fredericka Whitfield. Those stories and more coming up. But first, a look at the headlines.

Trade, terrorism and nukes all were topics on President Bush's agenda today as he addressed the APEC summit. Leaders from 21 Pacific Rim countries are in attendance at the annual conference in Santiago, Chile. We'll have a live report in a few minutes.

Relief and gratitude today in Warsaw. A Polish woman abducted by Iraqi militants in Baghdad last month has been freed. The 54-year-old woman is married to an Iraqi man and has dual citizenship. She refused to discuss details of her release, but said her captors treated her quote, "properly" while she was being held hostage.

And finally, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice is back at her Washington home after undergoing treatment for uterine fibroids. Rice was released this morning from Georgetown University Hospital and is expected to return to work on Monday.

We begin on Capitol Hill where it is a working Saturday for Congress. And there is late word on a defeat, or at least a temporary defeat on a bill that would mean big changes for the U.S. intelligence. CNN congressional correspondent Joe johns joins us now -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Fredericka, first congressional negotiators thought they had a deal on intelligence reform, but it turns out not to be so today. A series of meetings after key conservatives raised concerns about the bill, particularly on issues relating to immigration.

There have also been, as we know all along, problems with this bill between conservatives and others in the Congress on the formulation of a national intelligence director, one person to control intelligence in the United States. Of course, the question there was how much control over the budget should he or she have?

A series of meetings on Capitol Hill with Republicans, with conservatives, including one in the office of House Speaker Dennis Hastert. At the end of the day now, we are being told by numerous sources that there will be no vote on intelligence reform despite the fact that the conferees did think they had a deal.

Meanwhile, of course, here on Capitol Hill, the work continues on that gigantic $388 billion omnibus spending bill to wrap up the work of the Congress for this session. This is to pay, of course, for a myriad, a variety of different programs in the government across the government over the 2005 fiscal year. The House of Representatives taking that up today, the Senate as well. Fredericka, back to you.

WHITFIELD: All right. Now, about the spending bill, then I want to go back to the intelligence reform bill, too. But for now, the spending bill.

There are a number of things that are tucked away in the spending bill. And you mentioned earlier, Alcee Hastings was among those who said we just don't have enough time to go through all of it. And apparently one of those items deals with abortion. What -- you know, what kind of, I guess, you know, room or wiggle room is there on some of these measures that some of these congressional leaders are saying they don't have a complete understanding of before they're ready to sign off on them?

JOHNS: Right. This is an issue that has been debated somewhat in the House of Representatives, much less so in the Senate of the United States. The question was whether hospitals like Catholic Hospitals around the country that have an objection of conscience to doing abortions should be allowed not to do abortions and still get federal funding. Well, a provision was slipped into the bill that would allow such hospitals to still get federal funding even if they didn't do abortions.

Of course, that has been opposed in the House of Representatives by pro-choice groups. It's also, of course, being opposed by Senator Barbara Boxer, among others, from California over on the Senate side. She thinks it's the wrong idea, and it will have unintended consequences and will cause women, particularly some women who were victims of sexual abuse not to be able to get abortions that they need.

So it's a continuing fight. Democrats are saying it's the kind of issue that shows you where the Congress is headed as it becomes increasingly conservative. Republicans are saying it's a relatively small deal -- Fredericka.

WHITFIELD: OK. Now back to the intelligence reform bill. You said no vote for now, but is there any hope there on the hill that they will be able to address this matter before the next Congress convenes in January? JOHNS: Well, that seems to be the case. It seems to be the case that they are trying to hold out hope and not close down on the Congress of the United States, the 108th, at least not yet tonight, sort of keep the books open for these folks to negotiate, come to some conclusion and push it through.

Of course, the president of the United States personally intervened to try to get this bill passed at the last moment, making calls from Chile to Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, who was one of the conservatives who was trying to stop the immigration issues on this bill, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Joe johns on Capitol Hill, thanks so much.

Well as Joe mentioned, President Bush is monitoring the developments from Chile and has tried to influence the vote in some way, shape or form, but to no avail so far. He's at the APEC summit in Santiago, Chile. And in the last hour, he addressed the forum.

CNN White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with Mr. Bush. And Dana, he's made his phone calls to Washington to try to work out something. This is a reform bill that was very close and dear to his heart. What is the reaction from the White House?

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're certainly monitoring events through their aides back in Washington here, trying to see the latest. As you just heard from Joe it sort of seems to have been a roller coaster day, thinking that perhaps they would get a deal now, perhaps it looks a little less likely.

But as you just heard Joe report, President Bush did make a call or two that some Democrats, certainly a lot of Democrats, even some Republicans, thought that he should have made some time ago on this bill to try to push it along. As I said, they're going to sort of wait and see what happens from here.

But here at the summit, Fredericka, President Bush does have a clear priority, and that is to restart talks on North Korea, on its nuclear program, to try to end that nuclear program. And those talks have been stalled for about 5 months.

Now Mr. Bush had a series of one on one meetings this morning on the sidelines of the official summit with 4 key leaders, 4 leaders, one each from South Korea, Japan, Russia and China, all parties to the so-called 6-way negotiations on North Korea. And Mr. Bush, as you just said, did give a speech within the last hour, saying that North Korea, after those talks, should have no doubt about how their neighbors feel about their nuclear program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I can report to you today, having visited with the other nations involved in that collaborative effort, that the will is strong, that the effort is united, and the message is clear to Mr. Kim Jong-il: Get rid of your nuclear weapons programs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, North Korea pulled out of scheduled talks on this issue in September. Many believe because they were waiting to see what happened in the U.S. elections to see if Senator Kerry would win. He is somebody who supported one on one direct talks with the U.S. and North Korea. That is something that President Bush has rejected for a couple of years since he pushed the 6-way talks.

And officials say that the reality of the election results came up in almost all of Mr. Bush's meetings with the partners in North Korea today. And even president Hu of China said that he has sent officials to Pyongyang, and that they do understand the reality of the election results, that they will have to deal with Mr. Bush and his approach here. And even expressed some optimism that perhaps they will return to the table, even maybe by the end of the year.

Now, of course, North Korea was one topic that came up with Russian president, President Vladimir Putin. But another is something that Mr. Bush had to broach, we're told, is something that he is concerned about, and that is whether or not somebody who has called his good friend, Vladimir, is really committed to democracy, concerned about his consolidating power within the Kremlin and whether or not he actually believes in checks and balances.

We are told that this was an energetic discussion and that Mr. Bush looks forward to more discussions in the future, sort of diplospeak, we're saying that perhaps he wasn't satisfied with what he heard from President Putin -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Dana Bash in Santiago, Chile, traveling with the president. Thanks so much.

Well back here in the U.S., it's a case of hoops, punches and videotape. Police are investigating a violent fight that broke out during basketball last night in suburban Detroit. Four players have already been suspended by the NBA. CNN's Matt Morrison is here with details and the pretty shocking tape.

MATT MORRISON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. The tape is going to be seen for several days ahead, and it certainly was something we won't soon forget, that's for sure. The incident left players, coaches, fans and officials shaken. The NBA responded by suspending 4 players indefinitely, and the investigation is ongoing.

It happened towards the end of the Pacers' win over the Pistons. Ron Artest was involved with a late scuffle with Ben Wallace. But when a fan threw a beverage on him, he went into the fans and started wailing on the guy. Stephen Jackson, his teammate comes in, you'll see him land a punch on another guy who threw a beverage.

Fans punching players, players punching fans, challenges. This is just absolutely nasty.

Again, the NBA reviewed the tapes. They have suspended Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson as well as teamate Jermaine O'Neal indefinitely. Ben Wallace of the Pistons is also among those suspended in what the NBA commissioner, David Stern, is calling a shocking, repulsive and inexcusable incident.

Certainly the sweep-up from this that happened last night will continue for a long time. Certainly a very difficult episode for the NBA to recover from. That's Jermaine O'Neal getting taken off the floor.

Again, 4 players suspended indefinitely. The review of the tape continues. And police officials in Auburn Hills, Michigan, are also looking at that tape. I'm certain that there will be repercussions in terms of some fans involved, because there was despicable behavior on both ends, both the professionals and the fans.

WHITFIELD: This really does a lot of damage to the image of the NBA, which was already being criticized in recent years for a lot of players just being, you know, a little less than dignified.

MORRISON: Fan friendly. And you know, and they've worked hard on a campaign to try to overcome any perceived public relations issues. And certainly this is a situation that sets any of that back for a long time. Only because many arenas around the nation are very fan-friendly. There's a lot of good that is going on in the NBA. A lot of player participation in charitiable events, but something like this sort of spreads the black cloud over everybody. And, of course, NBA Commissioner David Stern stepped in quickly today.

Again, 4 players suspended indefinitely. And it's just something that -- you scratch your head and say, OK, it's time to start from square one.

WHITFIELD: And there still could be criminal charges that come later on in the week.

MORRISON: That's correct.

WHITFIELD: We'll be waiting for that.

All right. Thanks so much, Matt Morrison.

MORRISON: OK, Fredericka.

WHITFIELD: Well, is it ever OK to taser a 6-year-old child? It happened to this child right here. And Miami police are asking themselves just that question. Why?

In the Muslim community, a movement starts this week to introduce changes. The question is, is there a place for change?

And later, umbrella mishaps of the political kind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well welcome back. We're waiting for House Speaker Dennis Hastert to take to the microphones there on Capitol Hill. He's likely to going to be commenting about the fact that Congress failed to vote, for now, on an intelligence reform bill, one that many expected Congress would be voting on. But apparently a number of conservatives are still upset about a few portions of that measure and still need to be working it out before the 108th Congress ends their session and before a new one convenes in January. When that press conference takes place, we'll be bringing that to you.

Now news across America, off it goes into the wild blue yonder. Shortly after noon eastern, NASA's swift spacecraft hitched a ride aboard a Delta II rocket into the stratosphere. Swift is being sent to study the connection between gamma ray bursts and the formation of black holes in space.

In suburban Atlanta, one of 2 13-year-old girls accused of bringing poisoned cake to school is released from police custody. She's now under parental supervision. The other girl remains at a juvenile shelter while testing on the cake is complete. About a dozen of the girls' classmates became ill after eating that cake. The suspects each face 12 counts of aggravated assault with intent to commit murder.

And the Georgia crematory operator charged with burial fraud pleads guilty to 787 counts against him. In exchange for those pleas, Roy Brent Marsh is expected to serve no more than 12 years in prison. Marsh will also be fined. And is required to write apologies to more than 300 families whose relatives' bodies were dumped instead of cremated.

In Miami, two recent incidents are causing local police to take a hard look at the use of taser or stun guns. In both cases, the taser guns were used to subdue children, one was just 6 years old. CNN's Susan Candiotti with more on that case and the controversy that has erupted.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CNN has seen photographs of the 6-year-old boy shortly after he was Tasered by police. Four adults, including two police officers, had him cornered in a school office. This photo provided by the boy's attorneys shows mark on the first grader's torso, a small puncture wound near the top of his chest, a larger bruise below his waist.

CARMEN VIZCAINO, ATTORNEY: We've managed to educate children and discipline them for hundreds of years in the absence of a Taser. The fact that anyone would have the position that we had no choice but to use a Taser I find to be preposterous.

CANDIOTTI: The youngster is just under 3.5-feet tall and, according to the family, weighs 53 pounds.

DAVID GORDON, BOY'S ATTORNEY: It's outrageous to me that these grown adults would use that type of discretion on a grown child.

CANDIOTTI: A Taser shoots...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: As promised, we're goign to take you to Capitol Hill. A setback for the Bush administration. So far no vote on an intelligence reform bill that lawmakers were expected to pass. Here's House Speaker Dennis Hastert.

(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)

WHITFIELD: All right. You're listening to House Speaker Dennis Hastert saying they are going to continue to work on this intelligence reform bill and that the 108th Congress will not adjourn just yet. They're not ready to throw in the towel.

Our Joe Johns is on Capital Hill. He has been keeping watch of watch of this special meeting of Congress all day today. And more specifically, Joe, the House Speaker said that they want to work on language so as not to jeopardize the troops on the ground, particularly when it comes to figuring out the chain of command. What does he mean exactly?

JOHNS: Well, there has been all along a real question as this bill went forward as to whether the national intelligence director, who was being put into place for the first time, would have full control over, not just the budget, but over realtime intelligence. The Defense Department always wanted to make sure that it maintained control over realtime tactical intelligence on the ground in battlefield situations.

And apparently this has come up as an issue raised by Chairman Duncan Hunter of the Armed Services Committee, one of two members of Congress -- leading members of Congress who has been raising objections here.

And it's a fascinating development on Capitol Hill, in part, because the president of the United States used so much of his own political capital, calling from Chile to talk to one chairman and working behind the scenes and other ways to try to make this happen. The Speaker of the House himself also said he thought they had many of the questions addressed.

So in some ways, this may be viewed retrospectively as a rebellion, perhaps temporarily, if they do come back in December and work out the final language.

What is most interesting here is that the Republican Congress, firmly in control, has not been able to force this bill down the throats of its conservative members, Fredericka.

WHITFIELD: All right. So after the holidays, the Thanksgiving holidays, we just may see them back in action on the Hill in December before the 109th Congress, then, convenes in January.

JOHNS: Certainly. That seems to be the case. They do want to keep working at it.

And there is a concern among a large number of these members. And that is about the possibility of a terrorist attack while they try to work on the language of this legislation. There's great fear that if they have a terrorist attack and the legislation is not finished, the voters will come to them and say why didn't you get this thing done?

WHITFIELD: All right. Joe Johns on Capitol Hill, thanks so much for that.

And we'll be right back with more of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BRAEK)

WHITFIELD: Some Muslims want to introduce a more moderate vision of Islam in the U.S., one that allows men to worship next to women and even gays. But the idea is not going over well in more conservative circles.

Our Kathleen Koch reports on the cultural clash between those calling for change and those resisting it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Single mother Asra Nomani is preparing the post-Ramadan celebration away from her mosque in Morgantown, West Virginia. The Muslim writer may be banned from there, because she refused to enter the back door and pray separately upstairs with the other women. Nomani months earlier had made a pilgrimage to Mecca.

ASRA NOMANI, PROGERSSIVE MUSLIM: There were no back doors, there were no separate areas. So when I was faced with that in my mosque in Morgantown, I knew that this wasn't necessary.

KOCH: Nomani is part of a fledgling movement gaining support among some American Muslims. A Web site, Muslimwakeup.com showcases its issues: a broarder role for women, gay rights, more tolerance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our issues have to be out there.

KOCH: In New York this week, advocates founded the first national organization devoted to liberal Muslim goals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an attempt to begin to give a voice to what we believe are really millions of people around the country that have had enough, have had enough of the ultraconservativism that prevails in many Muslim institutions, that feel really disaffected and unwanted.

KOCH: One issue, says Muslim writer, is that many who regularly attend mosques in the U.S. are immigrants with a more conservative view of Islam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're not oftentimes attuned enough to the fact that the American-Muslim population is American. And so there's a level of cultural fluidity of gender norms that people come to expect in society, that right now do not, in fact, exist at the mosques.

KOCH: The mosque in Morgantown says its progressive Muslims like Nomani who are out of touch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Issues like men and women praying side by side and gay rights are not going to be accepted by mainstream Islam anytime soon and maybe never.

KOCH: But Nomani says, particularly after 9/11, moderates must keep pushing for change.

NOMANI: We can't allow closed doors and closed hearts and closed minds to define our Muslim world.

KOCH: Kathleen Koch, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Now to the war in Iraq. And reports of progress and setbacks today.

A polish woman taken hostage by militants last month has been freed and is now in Poland. Teresa Borcz Khalifa is married to an Iraqi man and has dual citizenship. She has lived in Iraq many years.

Nine people were killed in attacks across Iraq's capital today, including one civilian killed in a car bombing in central Baghdad. Witnesses say the car exploded shortly after a U.S. convoy passed.

Insurgents and U.S. forces traded gunfire on the road leading to Baghdad's airport. In separate attacks in the city, rebels targeted a U.S. patrol and an Iraqi police station.

One U.S. soldier was killed, nine others wounded. Four government employees were assassinated. Three Iraqi troops and one Iraqi police officer were killed.

In the northern town of Mosul, the U.S. military has found nine bodies of Iraqi soldiers. All of them were shot in the backs of the head. Seven of them had also been decapitated.

Instability in Iraq and the killing of aid workers there has forced many relief agencies to pull their people out. That's creating an added burden for U.S. forces filling the humanitarian void.

Ronald Waldman is a professor at Columbia University. He's an expert on the consequences, as well, of pulling aid from a region in conflict.

Good to see you, professor.

PROF. RONALD WALDMAN, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Pleasure to be here.

WHITFIELD: Well, after the reported death of Margaret Hassan, who led CARE International, and now we're also learning the abductions of other aid workers, there are a number of groups, in fact, the majority of non-government agency groups in Iraq who have pulled out.

Can you have a successful rebuilding effort without these kinds of volunteer groups?

WALDMAN: I would say not in the immediate time frame, you know. Many of these organizations, during the fighting, have been working mostly in areas that have been relatively stable and secure. It's precisely in those areas that assistance is probably less needed.

Where it's most needed now is in those areas where communities are being destroyed, where schools and health clinics aren't functioning. And it's in those areas where aid cannot reach. So it's a very paradoxical situation and quite frustrating for the international community.

WHITFIELD: And these aid workers have always been known to be very courageous, special, very brave people, to stare at the face of danger on a regular basis in places of conflict while trying to present some sort of aid, whether it's in the form of food or water or even medical care.

Give us a sense now as to what the psychology behind a lot of these aid workers may be right now, knowing that there is this great need that they would love to helpful fill, but really feel like they can't, because it's just too unsafe.

WALDMAN: It's very frustrating. The bottom line is that war and humanitarian assistance are incompatible pursuits.

It's very difficult for people to stand by, who, as you point out, are so highly motivated and who devote long periods of their lives to providing assistance to those in greatest need.

But when there's insecurity, when there's violence, sometimes it becomes absolutely impossible to do so. And there's nothing to do but to continue to stand aside and watch people suffering through very difficult periods.

WHITFIELD: Does it, indeed, seem like it's become worse, that the safety or the risks that many of these aid workers are taking seems to be much greater, or is it just something unique about the war in Iraq that has underscored or highlighted their vulnerabilities?

WALDMAN: No, this isn't particularly new. I think there are changes that have occurred, both in the nature of war, which we don't fight anymore by having armies go out to a field outside of town and line up and fight across battle lines.

Now civilians are involved. Now it's cities, urban areas that are most affected.

And it's the same with humanitarian assistance. Many of these people are highly affected. And it becomes very frustrating to not be able to provide the assistance that the population needs.

WHITFIELD: Does it -- does it now consent to search you that perhaps the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan has now forever changed the view or the commitment of these aid agencies to want to help in conflict regions?

WALDMAN: I think the desire will always be there. But I think that what we've learned is that it seems to be quite important that these international humanitarian agencies be able to maintain a distance from the fighting forces. Their independence is important.

I think a lot of the attacks on these agencies that are occurring really occur for two principle reasons. And one is that they are, as you say, courageous. They're out in the community. They're visible targets. Their abduction, their murder provides a great deal of publicity to those people who benefit from that.

But also, their role is intermingled. It's impossible to separate it, in some people's eyes, from the roles of what is seen as the aggressors, of the military forces. And so re-establishing their independence and letting everyone know that their role is not there to be part of the fight but rather part of the recovery, I think would be a crucial element.

WHITFIELD: All right. Professor at Columbia University Ronald Waldman, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

WALDMAN: You're welcome.

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back with more on CNN SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Welcome back.

Everything from trade to nuclear threats is on the agenda at the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation forum in Chile. President Bush addressed business leaders at the summit about an hour ago, calling for open societies and open markets. He also highlighted the efforts of five APEC members to convince North Korea to stop pursuing nuclear weapons.

Mr. Bush also said Iran's suspected weapons program is a very serious matter. He has included both countries in what he calls the axis of evil.

President Bush is getting a somewhat chilly reception while in Chile. Besides protests leading up to his arrival, Latin America is sending warning signals on a larger scale.

CNN's Lucia Newman reports, it's turning its attention from the U.S. to another trading superpower.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not so long ago, the visit of a U.S. president to Chile inspired more flattering coverage. But then, times have changed.

"We reject the warlike attitude of the United States against world peace," says this man.

But it's not just criticism of the Iraq war and the growth of globalization. Staunch supporters of free trade complain that since 9/11, the White House has ignored Latin America.

That's why at the APEC summit, the United States' traditional backyard partners are looking past their northern neighbor and focusing their gaze to the east, towards Asia, especially China, to do business.

ALEJANDRO FOXLEY, FORMER CHILEAN FINANCE MINISTER: The contract for 20 years in which you have a partner that will buy everything you produce for the next generation. And that's, as I say, gives a tremendous stability to the economies in Latin America.

NEWMAN: The interest is mutual. After visiting Latin American giants, Brazil and Argentina, China's president arrived in Santiago, not just to attend APEC, but to discuss a free trade agreement with Chile, the world's No. 1 copper producer.

Latin American commodities, from minerals to meat, are being gobbled up by China, which is quickly displacing the United States as the region's No. 1 trading partner.

Alejandro Foxley says the U.S. needs to rapidly take a more multilateral approach towards Latin America and not just on security.

FOXLEY: You either cooperate and build bridges with everybody, or you will be a losing partner in globalization.

WHITFIELD (on camera): Latin America's Asian love fest has not gone unnoticed in Washington, according to U.S. sources. What the United States plans to do about it may begin to be answered this weekend.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Santiago, Chile.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: The big turkey holiday is just around the corner. And help with the holiday is on the way.

DR. BILL LLOYD, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, DAVIS MEDICAL CENTER: Fredericka, whether you like the white meat or the dark meat, I'll have the cold hard facts on how to thaw this gobbler when CNN LIVE SATURDAY continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, CNN LIVE SATURDAY is ahead in about an hour and 15 minutes or so from now. Carol Lin hosting. What you got on tap?

CAROL LIN, HOST, CNN LIVE SATURDAY: Good. We're going to be talking about two very dangerous incidences at Los Angeles International Airport where, in one particular case, two jets came within 12 seconds of crashing. There is a problem at that airport. And I've got the vice chairman of the NTSB -- a former vice chairman of the NTSB to talk about that and what changes need to be made at major airports around the country. Ten o'clock, continuing the discussion about this huge basketball brawl.

WHITFIELD: Boy, what a mess.

LIN: I know. It really is a mess. I'm going to be talking with Kenny Smith, former veteran NBA player, about this. He's now a sports analyst with Turner Sports. He co-hosted -- he co-hosts with one of the bad boys of basketball.

But nevertheless, we're going to get Kenny's take on what happened and whether players have a right, frankly, to go after fans and defend themselves.

WHITFIELD: Well, and it's a tough activity to defend either way you look at it.

LIN: Yes.

WHITFIELD: But I've heard the point of view of some of the players who are, like, you know, once the fans come on the court, it's their house, you know. Their rules.

LIN: But when do you have the right to pummel somebody...

WHITFIELD: No kidding.

LIN: ... under any circumstances?

WHITFIELD: Right.

LIN: But that's why it's our hot topic at 10 p.m. tonight.

WHITFIELD: And it will be sizzling. All right. Carol Lin, thanks so much.

Well, time now for "Living Well." And this week we focus on holiday health.

The last thing you want to do is make your Thanksgiving guests sick through improper food handling. Dr. Bill Lloyd is here to tell you what you need to do to make sure your holiday feast doesn't run afoul and you've got your fowl right there.

It's still frozen, though, isn't it?

LLOYD: It sure is, Fredericka. Our first guest has arrived. But we have to start thinking about a safe timetable as to when we want to start thawing this thing.

You know, when I was growing up, my mother would take this big frozen bird and put it in the kitchen sink the night before Thanksgiving, put a towel over it. And in the morning you had a thawed bird. It's remarkable that any of us survived.

WHITFIELD: I think everybody's mom did it that way. And still do. But you're saying there are other better ways to do it?

LLOYD: There are. There are three safe ways to thaw that turkey. And the first way is to use a refrigerator.

You want to allow about four pounds per day for your turkey. And keep a pan underneath it, because there's going to be drippings. Always keep the turkey in the original container when you're thawing it.

The next step, if you've run out of time and you've done the math and you realized, "I should have thawed this thing yesterday," is to use cold water. And Fredericka, there you want to allow 30 minutes per pound of turkey. It's going to keep you busy all day, because you're supposed to change the water every 30 minutes, as well. So cold water's another good way.

WHITFIELD: That's a lot of work.

LLOYD: Now, the final -- the final last-minute way is to use your microwave oven. And for that, you should consult the manual that came with your microwave oven.

And remember, if you thaw with a microwave, you have to immediately go from the microwave to the oven and actually cook the bird. Don't put it back in the refrigerator, because all raw turkeys, whether they're fresh or formerly frozen, are covered -- covered with germs.

WHITFIELD: Wow! All right. Food poisoning is one thing. So when you get the bird in the oven, there are some other problems that you need to look out for, as well. What are they?

LLOYD: Well, you know, Thanksgiving's such a big, complex meal. And so there's different stages that are going on throughout the day. And many different people are running in and out of the kitchen. So everybody has to practice good hand washing.

A couple of other important tips, though. When you use things like cutting boards, the little scratches and cracks inside can harbor lots of germs, so you have to continuously clean the kitchen as you go along.

And about utensils, use different utensils for different courses. Don't be stirring the stuffing and then go ahead and mix up the mashed potatoes. Use a separate spoon or wash them between the different courses, or you could be spreading germs from the turkey to the cutting board, from the gravy, to the stuffing.

WHITFIELD: Oh, my gosh. Wow! All right. So as a guest, you're hoping that everyone's taken the proper precautions and they were listening to you, Dr. Lloyd. But sometimes it doesn't always work out that way.

So as a guest, what can you do to kind of keep yourself safe? And at the same time, be courteous?

LLOYD: Well, if it's a sit-down meal you'd usually be served a hot plate. And for the most part, it ought to be safe. The trouble comes when there's a buffet.

Now, if you're like me, you always arrive early for parties, so the food is there and it's fresh and piping hot and ready to enjoy. But if you're on a busy social schedule or you're going from party to party, you may get there, and the food may not be the right temperature.

So always check to make sure that the plates are piping hot. You may decide instead to simply go with an extra piece of pumpkin pie.

WHITFIELD: Right. Or I'll just have a beverage, please. Thanks. I'm dieting.

All right. So holidays overall really can be rather stressful, though. You've got family together. You've got a lot of guests in the house. And sometimes, you know, people don't always get along and are not always on their best behavior.

LLOYD: Oh, Fredericka, you're right. Many guests at family gatherings that may only happen once or twice a year bring more than an appetite. They may bring an attitude or even a grudge.

So think carefully about your guest list. If you've got people, you know, formerly divorced people, stepchildren where there may be trouble, you might have two functions, maybe a morning brunch and then an evening dinner, to keep those potentially hostile guests separated from one another.

Focus on the celebration. Make sure there's plenty of music and activities to allow people to think about the holiday rather than the person sitting next to them.

You can control trouble by limiting the amount of alcohol that's served at your party. Not only will they arrive home safe, but they may not cause any trouble inside your own home, as well.

Sometimes you can't plan on two parties. And if you know there's going to be a potential for trouble, get some allies. That is other family members, Fredericka, who are ready to intervene in the event that trouble breaks out or there are hard feelings.

WHITFIELD: Peacemakers.

LLOYD: And finally, think about the children and explain to them the difficult situations that may be there between different guests. And if you sense any trouble coming along, be sure you get the children out of the line of fire.

WHITFIELD: Wow! All great advice. And so there you go. Turkey day isn't all about just stuffing your face and eating. But you've got to be polite, and everyone's got to get along.

Dr. Bill Lloyd.

LLOYD: They certainly do.

WHITFIELD: All right. Thanks so much. Have a great holiday.

LLOYD: Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

WHITFIELD: You, too. Thanks.

All right. Britain's Prince William is finishing his college studies, and he's expected to leave the secure confines of St. Andrew's University in Scotland next spring. And while he's second in line to the British throne, William says he's not sure what he's going to do next.

CNN's Diana Muriel has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An ordinary student on his way to lectures. But Prince William is no ordinary student. He's second in line to the British throne.

These pictures offer a glimpse of the young prince's life at university. Like many students, he's behind in his courses.

CHARLES WARREN, PRINCE WILLIAM'S TUTOR: And what about the glacial essay?

PRINCE WILLIAM, IN LINE FOR BRITISH THRONE: It hasn't materialized at all. I've done a few minutes of reading.

MURIEL: Still, his geography tutor admires his princely pupil.

WARREN: He's worked really hard not to let his presence disrupt his fellow students' existence and keep a low profile, pull his weight, become one of the crowd. So no one -- no one lifts an eyebrow these days when he walks around.

MURIEL: That's not entirely true. William still turns heads. But he has a strong and supportive group of friends.

PRINCE WILLIAM: Look at that. What can I say?

MURIEL: Next May, the 22-year-old prince leaves the safe confines of his Scottish university. William admits he hasn't decided what he wants to do. But the army is a possibility.

PRINCE WILLIAM: If I was going to join the army, which I believe the armed forces, it would be probably my favorite, or to do something different. In family, we join the navy, and I'd like to do something different. The army's -- it's obviously a lot more in the spotlight at the moment.

MURIEL: What he does know is that life outside university will never be as private again. And that could be tough. PRINCE WILLIAM: I am, you know, pretty normal, not really the sort of fanfare of excitement, but I rise to the occasion when I need to.

MURIEL: William says he plans to take time off to travel when he leaves school next year, while he decides what to do next.

Diana Muriel, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, they were singing in the rain this week in Little Rock. Coming up, the problems the biggest names in politics have with trying to stay dry from the downpour. Whoops. Jeanne Moos has that story when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, mad dogs and Englishmen may go out in the midday sun. But it's American politicians who apparently don't have enough sense to come in out of the rain.

CNN's Jeanne Moos unfurls her wit on the topic of umbrellas and their use and misuse in Arkansas this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you're a manly politician, there is an unwritten rule: ditch the wimpy umbrella, even when the camera gets to wear a raincoat.

But in this case...

BONO (singing): When the rain comes, they run and hide their heads...

MOOS: ... even the manliest of politicians was forced to hide his head, giving us a rare glimpse of leaders skewered by their spouses.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN (singing): Oh, say can you see...

MOOS: See? Chelsea was almost blinded by her mom's umbrella. And Senator Clinton was herself bonked.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: ... the dedication of this extraordinary institution.

MOOS: Usually, being tall is an advantage for a politician, but it only made John Kerry more of a target, while President Bush had to check under an umbrella to make sure he got the right wife.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Welcome to my rainy library dedication.

MOOS: Bubba may have "rained" supreme, but Jimmy Carter got the caption, "Once a president, always a gentleman," for wiping off his wife's seat.

And the elder George Bush donated his raincoat for Laura Bush to sit on, though he eventually took it back.

They were singing in the rain...

(MUSIC)

MOOS: ... and praying in the rain, but mostly they were dripping in the rain.

For security purposes, organizers handed out umbrellas without pointy tips.

VIPs like Al Franken were given ponchos from Wal-Mart. John Glen looked more like a blue Teletubby than an astronaut. Even Bono surrendered to the elements.

BONO: Can I chicken out?

MOOS: Back in 1841, President William Henry Harrison spoke at his inauguration in pouring rain, declining the offer of an overcoat. He died within the month of pneumonia, no doubt a coincidence.

B. CLINTON: If my beloved mother were here, she would remind me that rain is liquid sunshine.

MOOS: The soldier holding the umbrella didn't seem too convinced. He got almost as much face time as P. Diddy's manservant.

But we wondered why, in the downpour, Mr. Clinton still had to lick his fingers.

There is one good thing about huddling under an umbrella: like two peas in a soggy pod, umbrellas inspire intimacy.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And that's all we have time for right now. But stay with CNN. Up next, "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," in depth on Condoleezza Rice.

Then at 6 Eastern on CNN LIVE SATURDAY. And at 7 Eastern, "THE CAPITAL GANG," interviewing Florida Senator-elect Mel Martinez.

I'll be back after a quick break with today's top stories.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com