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CNN Live Saturday

CNN Exclusive: New Details On Capture Of Saddam Hussein; Republicans, Democratis Gear Up For Social Security Reform Debate

Aired December 18, 2004 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


FREDRICKA WHITFIELD: It's 2:00 p.m. on the East Coast, 11:00 a.m. out West. I'm Fredricka Whitfield at CNN's global headquarters in Atlanta. Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Ahead this hour, the latest on the stories stunning America. Police now know what happened but they're still searching for the reasons why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you live to be 21, you're going to have a good life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: New details on the capture of Saddam Hussein from a man who was there. If it's a CNN exclusive.

Also she took Celebrex until yesterday. What's she going to do now and what should you do?

Those stories in a moment but first the headlines.

Police say a Kansas woman has confessed to killing a 23-year-old pregnant mother at this Missouri home and cutting the baby from the woman's womb. The infant girl was later recovered and united with her father. A full report coming up less than a minute from now.

Former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet is in the Santiago Military Hospital at this hour. Doctors say the 89-year-old general suffered a stroke. Next week, a court is scheduled to decide if Pinochet will be under indictment and house arrest for crimes committed during his regime.

A warning for users of Straterra, a drug used to treat Attention Deficient Hyperactivity Disorder. New labels say the medication should be discontinued in patients who jaundice or laboratory evidence of liver injury. There are reports of an adult and a teenager developing liver problems after taking Straterra for several months. The FDA says there were no signs of liver problems during the drug's clinical trials.

Keeping you informs, CNN, the most trusted name in news.

A child stolen from her mother's body is in good condition at a Kansas Hospital today. Police say, Bobbie Jo Stinnett was found dead in her home in Missouri laying a pool of blood. The local sheriff called it the most gruesome crime he had ever seen. A Kansas woman is in custody for the crime, confessing to strangling Stinnett and cutting the unborn child out of her body. A FBI affidavit says Lisa Montgomery has been charged in the kidnapping of the child resulting in the death of the infant's mother. The baby was found alive. She was taken to a hospital where her father met her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRY HOWARD, FAMILY FRIEND: I believe that he probably doesn't know what he's feeling right now considering I don't know how somebody could be so happy and so sad to have it happen. But be so sad at the same time to have such a tragic thing happen. But I do feel that he will have a piece of Bobbie with him for the rest of his life and I'm so very glad they got his daughter back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The Missouri town of Skidmore tries to cope with the crime of a mother to be killed for her child. Jim Flink of CNN affiliate, KMBC has more on the crime that shocked the nation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TODD GRAVES, U.S. ATTORNEY: Our victim had pictures on the Internet of herself and so forth. They hooked up through that message board.

JIM FLINK, KMBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And it was that Internet meeting, authorities say, that ultimately led to Bobbie Jo Stinnett's murder. Authorities say she was supposed to meet a woman named Darlene Fischer at her home Thursday to sell her a purebred rat terrier. Darlene Fischer, authorities say, was Lisa Montgomery, with murder on her mind.

Police believe Montgomery strangled Stinnett from behind then cut her 8-month-old baby fetus from her stomach. Stinnett, left in a pool of blood. Family and neighbors are still shocked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I just can't understand why anybody would do a trick like that, you know? I just don't know why.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This stuff doesn't happen, you know? These are the really bad TV shows you don't watch. And this happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say two threads of information clinched this case. First, an AMBER Alert putting out a call for a red car -- it almost didn't happen.

SHERIFF BEN ESPEY, NODAWAY COUNTY, MISSOURI: We may have not ever recovered this little baby if the AMBER Alert system was not put into place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's also apparent that after this case is over, there's going to have to be a little adjustment made to this. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The other, the FBI tracked all communication on the victim's computer, which led right to the doorstep of Lisa Montgomery.

GRAVES: They were virtually and literally simultaneous. A tip and they were going through the computer forensics at the same time. And two leads, you know, crossing make that the best lead you've got and the one you move the quickest on.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: And that was reporter Jim Flink of CNN affiliate KMBC.

Another twist to a mystery involving a missing Arizona couple. Tom and Jackie Hawks were last seen in mid-November. Police in New Port Beach, California have now arrested a man who bought the Hawks' 55-foot yacht. Skyler Julius Dilian (ph) is accused of money laundering. Police say the charges associated with the purchases of the boat. The Hawks are not seen since they sold the boat for several hundred thousand dollars. Investigators found the Hawks' car in Insana (ph), Mexico. A hearing Dilian is now scheduled for Monday.

Two key members of Saddam Hussein's former regime questioned in a Baghdad court. One of those associates was Ali Hassan al-Majid, also know as "Chemical" Ali, for his alleged use of chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds. Today's hearing was not part of upcoming trials of one- time leaders including Saddam. Al-Majid's trial is expected to be first starting as early as next week.

One of men who helped with the capture of Saddam Hussein is an Iraqi-American named Samir. We first told you his amazing story last summer. Coming up, he joins us live to share his feelings about the current situation in Iraq. That's happening at the bottom of the hour.

And anti-terrorist police in Spain have arrested four men accused of starting up an Islamic terror base in the Canary Island. The four are being flown under heavy guard to Madrid. The police say they belong to a group linked to al Qaeda. One of the four is suspect of involvement in the Madrid train bombings that killed 191 people last March.

CNN's security watch and the biggest U.S. intelligence reform in more than 50 years, and the struggle to make it happen. The president says the intelligence reform bill now law will help protect Americans.

But as Dana Bash reports, several people point out how the president opposed some crucial steps along the way.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The president gets credit from all involved for personally pushing the intelligence reform measure over the finish line. However, many recall he was initially a skeptic if not a critic of the effort. TIM ROEMER, (D), 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: The president was Johnny-come-lately to this. Better late than never.

BASH: At first, he fought creating the independent 9/11 Commission, saying a congressional probe was adequate.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My judgment is best for ongoing war against terror that the investigation be done in the Intelligence Committee.

BASH: September 11 victims families lobbied and six months later, the president signed on. Then, a series of skirmishes. From some quiet struggles over boosting its initial $3 million budget to larger public battles turned political pressure points.

The commission wanted broad access to classified documents, especially the president's own daily intelligent briefings, what he knew about Al Qaeda's threat.

BUSH: It's important for the writers of the presidential daily brief to feel comfortable that the documents won't ever be politicized and/or unnecessarily exposed for public purview.

BASH: The president resisted, but later compromised. Another flashpoint, whether National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice would testify at commission hearings. The White House initially refused, citing executive privilege. Again, it later gave in, as it also did in agreeing the president and vice president would answer commissioners questions, though that was still private.

JIM THOMPSON, (R), 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBERS: There was controversy along the way and obviously disagreements from time to time.

BASH: The 9/11 Commission's recommendations were yet another example. In the heat of the presidential campaign, Democrat John Kerry embraced them immediately. Mr. Bush initially was more circumspect.

BUSH: The 9/11 Commission also made...

BASH: But then backed the reforms and after public pleas from some fellow Republicans still unsure how serious his support was, Mr. Bush eventually used his reelection capital to push the bill through Congress.

DAVID GERGEN, FMR. WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: The president faced the political necessity of not losing on this, not being overrun, and not seeming to care about this intelligence. I think that's one of the reasons they came around.

BASH, (on camera): Some of the president's critics also note he initially resisted, then embraced creating the Homeland Security Department, but even they say these reforms were enacted relatively quickly and the bottom line, it's the Bush signature on this law and that's what history will remember. Dana Bash, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: President Bush is promoting the economic agenda. In his Saturday radio address, Mr. Bush says, he'll work with the Democrats overhauling social security, making taxes simpler and reducing government spending. Democrats want the tax cuts rolled back and say his the Social Security plan is too expensive and there are reports of a possible freeze in government spending as the Bush economic program takes shape. The president will announce the budget plans in February.

Well, stay with us because Ron Brownstein is standing by to talk about the president's week. He's standing by right there. And he'll be talking about the week including the push for Social Security reform.

Also, an influential consumer group is demanding the government ban Celebrex.

And a CNN exclusive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They asked me to tell him to ask him, put your hand up. We want to see your hand. I saw him put your hand up. And it was like, one hand. I said, let me see your other hand. And he did this. I said, no, both hands up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: This is a man who first touched Saddam Hussein when he was captured a year ago. Samir's amazing story coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A cornerstone of the Bush economic agenda is reforming Social Security, the most controversial ideas, partly privatizing Social Security. But the details of paying for the plan are still unclear.

CNN's political analyst Ron Brownstein is with us from New York to sort out how things might be moving forward.

Good to see you, Ron.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD:: Paying for the plan is unclear. In fact, the plan itself is unclear, isn't snit.

BROWNSTEIN: Absolutely. First of all, when we're talking about Social Security, we are talking about arguably the most effective government program of all time. It's something that provides benefits right now to 47 million Americans. So this is a debate that has more immediate impact for Americans than most of the thing that is are discussed in Washington. The president has laid out some principles for what he wants to see in Social Security reform. And he did so once again this week at his economic conference, but did -- has not endorsed a specific plan.

He has said he wants a Social Security reform that includes individual accounts that workers can invest in the stock market, no change in benefits for those in retirement or near retirement and he doesn't want to raise taxes. There are some implications of that that are going to be at the center of the debate.

WHITFIELD: And it's likely to reach an uphill battle when, at the beginning of the year, this plan is divulged from the president, isn't it?

BROWNSTEIN: Right. First of all, we're not 100 percent sure there ever will be a specific plan. They're suggesting there will be, but we don't know. He may have general principles. Here's some of the issues, Frederick. Most people agree it requires some changes. The way that the system works is that the payroll taxes paid by today's worker go to fund the benefits of today's retirees. The problem is, the demography of the country is changing, we're getting older, there are few work for each retiree. So, there is a long-term financing gap between what we promised and what we can afford.

The debate is over how you close that gap. The president wants the private accounts, but critics say that would require us to have massive borrowing in the short run to replace the money that would now be going to pay benefits. Under his plan, a workers taking 2 or 4 percent of the payroll tax and put into an account for themselves. You have to replace that money to keep the benefits going to todays seniors. That could require as much as 2 trillion in borrow over the next decade. Even more the decade after that. There are a lot of people concerned about adding that much to the national debt.

WHITFIELD: And the borrowing might be inconceivable. I mean, huge, particularly because we're talking about the baby boom generation either retiring or about to retire. A growing number of people who are going to be relying upon Social Security or something equivalent.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, well, I mean, what the administration says is that the status quo is not an option. If you keep the program exactly the way it is, we will not be able to pay the benefits promised over the long term. Now, it's not an immediate. The Social Security actuaries say we can pay the benefits until 2042. The Congressional Budget Office says until 2052. What the president says, is to make the program stable over the long run, in fact, he's offering the country a trade.

We will allow you to divert part of these taxes into accounts you can invest for yourself, but we're going to reduce the growth in the guaranteed benefit. And that's the other controversial element. The way to make this add up, is that there will be less of a guaranteed benefit than there would be under current law for people out into the future. He's only said, as I mentioned, that he doesn't want to change the benefits for people at or near retirement. The implications of that of course, it would be changed for people who are further away from retiring.

WHITFIELD: All right. In our last 15 second or so, Ron, the reform bill. Something that the president signed off on initially. The commission didn't get the support. However, this is a political feather in the cap for the president, isn't it, for any successes coming from it?

BROWNSTEIN: Anytime the president invest himself in legislation, he bears the -- he gets some of the credit for it. And in this case, the president did push over the line the intelligence reform bill. The big question, of course, will be as Dana pointed out in her piece, there was a lot of skepticism in the administration about the ideas, particularly creating the national intelligence director. How will it be implemented. Something like this will only counts, will only have effect if it is done in a way that really creates power and centralizes powers in this new office. We have to wait and see how that will play out.

WHITFIELD: All right. Ron Brownstein, thanks so much. Good to see you. Happy holidays.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you. Happy holidays to you.

WHITFIELD: Well, the Food and Drug Administration is advising doctors to think about giving patients something other than the popular pain drug Celebrex. A new study shows the painkiller could increase the risk of heart attacks. Pfizer isn't taking it off the market just yet however, but the consumer group, Public Citizen, is urging the government to ban Celebrex.

Jason Carroll looks at how users are reacting to the news.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the past year, Neela Rastogi-Shapiro has had to walk slowly on lunch breaks, ever since she hurt her knee from overdoing it in the gym. As recently as Thursday, she took Celebrex. Not anymore.

NEELA RASTOGI-SHAPIRO, CELEBREX USER: I'm in my 30s. I shouldn't be worried about heart problems and cardiovascular problems. I'm too young for this. I only have knee problems.

CARROLL: Shapiro started out taking Vioxx but that painkiller upset her stomach, so her doctor suggested Celebrex. That was weeks before Vioxx was pulled for its risk of causing heart attacks and strokes. Now there may be risks associated with Celebrex. Shapiro wonders what to do now.

DR. GARY MEREDITH, RHEUMATOLOGIST: How are you today?

CARROLL: Rheumatologist Gary Meredith is Shapiro's doctor.

MEREDITH: I think people are going to ask is it safe to continue to take it. What we'll probably try to do is see if we can minimize the dose or possibly substitute another medication for those that are at high risk.

CARROLL: Dr. Meredith says as late as Thursday he spoke with representatives from Pfizer, the company that manufactures Celebrex. He says that company rep made no mention of any potential problems.

SHAPIRO: My pain comes and goes.

CARROLL: Now, Shapiro says she's going to look at other options.

SHAPIRO: At this point, I want to experiment on other alternatives -- natural remedies, homeopathic remedies, holistic medicine or maybe not take anything.

CARROLL (on camera): Medical experts say people taking Celebrex should meet with their doctors and, if there is a history of heart disease, weigh the risks vs. the benefits of staying on Celebrex.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: And one other medical story of high interest today, the government is easing restrictions on the flu vaccine. The CDC recommends shots available to anyone 50 and over starting January 3rd. The flu vaccine supply cut in half this fall due to manufacturing problems. But it turns out there's a surplus. Many people didn't try to get a shot apparently. Plus the U.S. bought additional vaccines from Europe.

Coming up, Michael Jackson opens Neverland to children and the camera crews. We'll take you inside.

And a little retro holiday magic. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, perhaps your idea of the good old days holidays dates back to 1962? If so, remember aluminum Christmas trees? The books "Seasons Gleaming" is filled with photographs of these vintage trees. And we spoke with the photographers about Christmas past.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN SHIMON "SEASON'S GLEAMINGS": When people pick up "Seasons Gleamings," it might hit them as being not quite right because I think what you want to see is a book about Christmas collectibles or both Christmas decorating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a lot of visual culture. And I hope that as people look at the images that they stop for a moment and ponder just all the little nuances. There was this feeling at the time after the wars that there was this desire for glitz and glamour and luxury and aluminum trees fit into that. And the idea of bring newness to something that was traditional. MAYOR KEVIN CRAWFORD, MANITOWOC, WISCONSIN: The Aluminum Specialty Company did a variety of unusual small aluminum products, from salt shakers to camping sets. And in the early '60s they were invited to produce an aluminum Christmas tree for a specialty sale in Chicago. They produced the trees from about 1960 to about 1968.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They made them rotate. They made them pink. They made them green, gold. They made them with blue tips on the branches. They made all sorts of accoutrements to light them. And so there's all sorts of textures and varieties and colors. But makers of the trees were very concerned that consumers not hang string electric lights on the branches. If they would do that, they would be electrified and they could be electcuted.

So there was a caution that said to avoid electric shock, please do not string lights on the branches. So we did a photograph called "Short Out" showing the tree strung with lights and then tipping over. To decorate the tree, you would use turning lights, color wheels. You would make the tree rotate and decorate it very simply with small, colored balls and keep it very minimal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're very productive community. A blue collar community and very proud of it. And the thing that is we made in the past now raining into the future, I think, are very important for our history.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Seasons Gleamings" is going to make people (UNINTELLIGIBLE) think about some of the past and how maybe this company or these things affected their life, and what meaning it might have for them, that that would be a really great thing about it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, coming up, an Iraqi forced to flee to America comes face to face with Saddam.

Samir's story a year after the dictator's capture.

And Scott Peterson and the death sentence. Was justice served? Stay with us. We'll talk about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Our top stories, President Bush is pushing his economic reform program in the Saturday radio address. He spoke about overhauling Social Security and making the tax code simpler. Meantime, his economic advisers have sharply lowered the number of jobs expected to be created next year.

Authorities arrest a suspect in a horrifying murder/kidnap case at this Missouri home. A pregnant woman was killed and a fetus cut from her womb. The baby survived and is now with her father. Police arrested a Kansas women, Lisa Montgomery, who confessed to the crimes. A motive is still unknown.

And a former Iraqi general accused of gassing Kurdish civilians in the 1980's undergoes interrogation in a Baghdad courtroom. Known as chemical Ali he is accused of war crimes. Also in court for today's pretrial hearing, was Saddam's former defense minister. The hearing was not part of the planned up coming war crimes proceeding of Saddam Hussein and 11 other members of his regime.

Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news.

Well, it's been just over a year since Saddam Hussein was captured by U.S. special forces and Iraqi-American named Samir helped capture the former dictator. Samir will join me in a few minutes to talk about his life since that historic moment but first, Samir describes the capture of Saddam Hussein to CNN special contributor Ron Young.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAMIR: On December 13th, we knew we have info, Saddam is there on that farm hidden somewhere on that farm. But we had his bodyguard. He is the one we were looking for because we knew he would lead to Saddam and we got enough about 8:00 p.m. Saturday night. Forces went inside. And they searched the whole farm and there's no sign of Saddam. The guy shows exactly where the bunker is.

RON YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The bodyguard showed you where the bunker was?

SAMIR: Yes. He said, pointing with his finger, he said dig in here. It is really hard to see it was the bunker where is it's covered with dirt. It's the hole? Can't be. Initially when you think about looking for Saddam Hussein, the dictator and he started yelling inside. And they said, Samir come talk to him. Tell him to come out. He starts telling don't shoot. Don't kill me. Don't shoot. They ask me to ask him put your hands up. We want to see your hands.

I tell him put your hand up. It was like, one hand. I said, let me see your other hand. He did this. I said, no. Both hand up. He stick both hands up. And I reached and I caught him. I grabbed him. I was like, I'm not going to let him go but these guys like, they don't know what I do. I'm like in the hole. They pull me back. They were so close to the -- they saw and everyone got a piece of Saddam. We pulled him out. And I look at him. Oh. I knew that was Saddam. His face. That was Saddam. I told them, this is Saddam.

They didn't believe me at first. They said, ask him his name. And I said, this is Saddam. They said, no, ask him! And I ask him, what is your name? He said, first, he said, uh, what is your name? He said, I'm Saddam. And then, Saddam what? I had to grill like, yell at him. He said, I'm Saddam Hussein. And he called me a traitor. And a spy. And he make me really upset. And I had to -- I was so angry. I don't know really punch him a couple of times in the face. Grabbed him from his beard and they told me to stop. That's enough. He said, you didn't win the war. He said, you didn't win the war. The war's not over. We tell him that. The war is over!

(END VIDEOTAPE) WHITFIELD: And Samir joins us now to share his thoughts about the situation in Iraq since the capture of Saddam Hussein and what your life has been like Samir since your participation in the capture of Saddam Hussein. What has this past year been like?

SAMIR: Well, to be like really great for me because I share my story with my people. I share my story with the American and I like to talk about it because a lot of people wondering what happened. They want to know like what the real story is. This is the real story. And I was there during the capture. And I'm glad I was there. I can tell the Iraqis what happened and the cower man, as he call himself, the hero. How he pulled him out of that battle hole.

WHITFIELD: So when you talk to Iraqis about what happened and when you reflect on those events you reflected on in that tape, what is their point of view of Saddam Hussein during your interview, you said called you a traitor and a spy. What are other Iraqis calling you?

SAMIR: Well, it depends. Like, you know, you know, most Iraqis, they hate Saddam. They hated Saddam but there is some loyal to Saddam -- some people loyal to Saddam in the country. But, you know, to me, my people I know and my parents, they really proud of me of what I did and most people I talked to, they're glad to hear what happened and I was there. They are really happy about what happened. Saddam's gone. The Baath party is gone. They don't have to deal with it anymore. That's like a big concern about the future of the Iraqis.

WHITFIELD: You mentioned the loyalists. Now, there was an overall feeling that perhaps after the capture of Saddam Hussein that the number of attacks of violence of the insurgency would drop. Instead it has been completely the opposite. Do you believe these are loyalists to Saddam who are responsible for the violence that we're seeing or is the emphasis really on the hate for westerners or the coalition influence?

SAMIR: Well, I'll say it's part of it is the Saddam's loyalists, but the most -- the attack on insurgents happen right now in Iraq, they're fighters. They're like Iraq's neighbors. They came from these Gulf countries. To fight even before the war started. I was working with the forces and we captured some of these terrorists. They were like foreign fighters. They come to the country as a terrorist. To -- they don't like to see Iraq having election. They don't like to see Iraq having a free country on a new president. They don't like to see that so that's basically right now what happened in the country. Some Iraq cans are involved, too.

WHITFIELD: What about for you Samir what is next? Do you believe that you would be called to testify if and when there's a trial involving Saddam Hussein since you participating in his capture?

SAMIR: Well, if I have the opportunity, I will love to. And I want to. But if I have the opportunity, I will do it but, you know, mostly most of the Iraqi citizens, they like to see Saddam on justice. They like to see Saddam brought to court and to get his punishment. They really do. As soon as possible.

WHITFIELD: All right. Samir thanks so much for joining us and sharing with us your story of participating in the capture of Saddam Hussein, one year ago this week, in fact.

SAMIR: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Coming up, Michael Jackson meets and greets at Neverland. Could this help or hurt in his upcoming criminal trial?

And a little later on --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you live to be 21, you're going to have a good life. I guess I -- it was significant.

WHITFIELD: One story of bravery from World War II that few people knew until now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Despite legal troubles, entertainer Michael Jackson extended a surprise welcome to children visiting his Neverland ranch in California. Jackson's spokeswoman insists the appearance has nothing to do with next months scheduled trial on child molestation. CNN's Miguel Marquez has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIQUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Michael Jackson welcomes children to his Neverland ranch, something his public relations person says he does all the time. What's different this time? The media was invited to watch.

MICHAEL JACKSON: Welcome to my ranch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you!

MARQUEZ: The visit comes days before a lengthy pretrial hearing during which Jackson's legal team is expected to ask that the trial dates of January 31st be pushed back by six weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't answer any questions with regards to his trial. I'm sorry.

MARQUEZ: Jackson's spokeswoman Raymone Bain (ph) says Jackson often has groups of kids to Neverland Ranch but he usually doesn't greet them. He did this time, she says, because the last tour of the holiday season.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why allow press into this particular gathering at this particular time?

RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON'S SPOKESWAMAN: Because you have asked. Over the last several months. MARQUEZ (on camera): Jackson has been charged with among other things, lewd acts against a child and conspiracy, he has pleaded not guilty to all charges. While in Neverland Ranch, there were about 80 kids and about three dozen adults who were greeted by Michael Jackson. They were expecting around 200. CNN asked several times to speak to some of the adults who were supervising the kids. We were denied that request. Miquel Marquez, CNN, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, the Michael Jackson case is a focus of our "Legal Round-up" today. With us from Cleveland, civil rights attorney and law professor Avery Friedman. Good to see you.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi Fredricka. Nice to see you.

WHITFIELD: Hello. And in New York, criminal defense attorney Richard Herman. Good to see you Richard.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, you guys. Well lets begin with you Richard, you know, the premise of having this open forum for the kids at Neverland, what would be the motivation for Michael Jackson's defense team? Apparently his attorneys OK'd it.

HERMAN: Oh, Fred. It's damage control for him right now. Look at that clip we just saw. This guy looks so weird. He is so freaky looking and this case is going to go to trial in a very conservative jurisdiction. It's damage control. It is trying to help his image, his public image but I think it was a horrific experience for them to do that. I think this guy's got big problems.

WHITFIELD: How would that back fire?

HERMAN: Because look at what he looked like with that crazy general outfit on with the umbrella. I have never seen anything like it. This guy is nuts. Didn't help him at all, really. It hurt him doing that today.

WHITFIELD: But Avery perhaps his legal team is saying, look, here he is among children, no one's complaining. This solidifies the case that, you know, he is a friend to the children.

FRIEDMAN: Well, you know what? I can't figure out what the heck the legal team had in mind here making no sense because, again, we are facing a jury of his peers whatever that -- I don't think Michael Jackson has a peer but a jury and whether or not this is poisoning the jury pool or not, I don't know but I genuinely think this is how Michael Jackson does things. And often, they will make decisions irrespective of what the lawyers are saying, Fredericka. So to me it was a mindless act and typical Michael Jackson.

WHITFIELD: But you don't see it necessarily hurting his case? FRIEDMAN: I don't see it hurting him. Just a mindless act. Doesn't make any sense. We're one month away from selecting that jury. God only knows.

WHITFIELD: OK. All right Richard.

HERMAN: I bet you that Jackson's happy that he let Geragos go. (INAUDIBLE) Don't you?

WHITFIELD: We'll see how it unfolds if in January there's indeed a trial.

HERMAN: Right.

WHITFIELD: Well let me ask you something, too about is this case, there are no prior convictions, yes there was a settlement years ago involving up to $25 million. We understand Avery you say that in California, there can be included what's called propensity evidence. What is that?

FRIEDMAN: Well, about ten years ago, California followed the federal rules, rule 413 which permits similar acts but the difficulty, Fredericka, is that this rule introducing propensity evidence, that is, he is likely to molest or abuse children, is fraught with danger. What a judge has to do is balance similar acts with the prejudicial effect of that kind of evidence would be.

And you know what's going to happen here you are going to have trials within the trial and talk about a circus. If propensity evidence is introduced and I think we are going to see it in this case, we are going to have many trials within a trial and it is going to be a mess.

WHITFIELD: Well Richard something or someone we may see in the case if it does indeed go to trial is the ex-wife, Debbie Roe (ph) she has been subpoenaed to testify. What might she say that would either hurt or help Michael Jackson's case?

HERMAN: That's very interesting. You know, in most cases, in all cases, a wife cannot be compelled to testify against her husband. Here, this is an ex-wife subpoenaed and the reason she is subpoenaed is she now has an action pending in family court claiming Michael Jackson to be an unfit father. She's seeking custody so the prosecution is going to try to use any and all evidence that she may be having to prove he is just an unfit person and shouldn't be around children. That is where is coming from.

WHITFIELD: OK, let's talk now about the Scott Peterson case it wrapping up with the sentencing coming down from the jurors. A death sentence. But now, his attorneys are saying they're going to appeal. On what grounds might they appeal, Richard?

HERMAN: Well Fredricka there are a slew of grounds that are going to be used this case on appeal and just you have to know that most jury verdicts are not reversed. You have to know that at the outset but here one of the most compelling issues is the fact that Judge Delukey (ph) denied Geragos' request to put on a buoyancy expert, by denying that later he allowed the jury to go down, take a look at this boat and a few jurors actually get in the boat and perform their own buoyancy experiment.

WHITFIELD: And Avery you are disagreeing on all of that?

FREIDMAN: I don't think that's the big issue to me on appeal and I understand what Richard is saying, but to me, you had a foreman who took notes, responsible guy, Greg Jackson, had a law degree and a medical degree and he decides he is not getting along with anyone and all of a sudden he is excused. I think that's a big issue which the California Supreme Court will absolutely consider and whether or not to affirm this capital sentence.

HERMAN: Hey Fredricka, I think the boat evidence will do it and I think it is going to be reversed.

FRIEDMAN: We'll see.

HERMAN: A new trial and then interesting, we'll see Amber Frey and her publicist Gloria --

WHITFIELD: I knew you wanted to get that in. One more time.

HERMAN: A great book deal and how long it's been pending and how much they made on this book deal.

WHITFIELD: Oh my gosh.

HERMAN: That will be interesting.

WHITFIELD: I know your phone will soon be ringing off the hook and Gloria giving you a jingle Richard.

HERMAN: I don't think so.

WHITFIELD: All right Avery Friedman, Richard Herman thanks so much, gentlemen.

HERMAN: Happy New Year.

WHITFIELD: Happy holidays.

FRIEDMAN: Happy holidays.

WHITFIELD: Happy New Year.

All right coming up, more arrests after arson devours several homes in a Maryland subdivision.

And a personal side of war as told by a hero from the battle of the bulge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Our stories across America now. Weeks after election day, the battle over the governor's race in Washington State drags on. The state Republican party wanted -- won a victory yesterday when a judge granted a request to block King County from counting hundreds of recently discovered ballots. The judge said it was simply too late for counties to reconsider the ballots. The state Democratic party has appealed the ruling to the State Supreme Court. Republicans Deno Rossi (ph) won the November 2nd election over a Democrat Christine Ragrq (ph) by 261 votes in the first count and then by 42 votes after a second recount.

In Maryland, three more men are charged with arson in connection with a fire at an upscale subdivision under construction 30 miles from Washington, D.C. The suspects were taken into custody this morning. Their arrests follow the admission by a security guard he was involved in the December 6th fires. The flames destroyed or damaged dozens of homes.

And in the nation's capital, a familiar landmark disappeared. Washington's old convention center was brought down today by a planned implosion. A new mix use development will be built on that site.

Sixty years ago this week, the battle of the bulge, Germany's last major offensive in World War II claims tens of thousands of lives it took place in Southeastern Belgium. During one of Europe's coldest and snowiest winters. The great heroes of the battle of the bulge are in their 80s now and remembering. Here's CNN's Brian Todd.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): After 58 years of marriage, Lyle Bouck and his wife Lucy are still helping each other down the front walk.

LUCY BOUCK, WIFE OF WAR VETERAN: I didn't think we'd lose that war.

TODD: At one point, Lyle didn't think he'd make it to the altar.

LYLE BOUCK, BATTLE OF THE BULKGE VETERAN: Maybe even at this point, I can't measure some of it.

TODD: But he certainly can remember. Sixty years back as a young whip smart lieutenant commanding an U.S. army intelligence and reconnaissance platoon, 18 elite soldiers, the eyes and ears of a fragmented allied force pushing through Belgium toward the German border. By mid-December of 1944, they've just about reached the border but there's a huge gap in the front lines and Bouck's platoon is ordered to plug an isolated stretch of it on a hill.

BOUCK: We weren't trained to occupy a defensive position in the front lines. We were trained to patrol and get information about the enemy.

TODD: But the enemy finds them December 16th, a huge column of German paratroopers gets wind of Bouck's platoon dug in on that hill. The Germans throw a total of 700 men in three waves at Lyle Bouck and 17 other Americans. ALEX KERSHAW, AUTHOR, "THE LONGEST WINTER:" And they were told to hold the house. Basically, that meant until you're killed or taken prisoner.

TODD: But by day's end, hundreds of Germans are dead. Some Americans are badly wounded but not one is killed and their only captured running out of ammunition. As he is interrogated inside a house nearby, Lyle Bouck watches a clock stroke midnight. At that moment, he turns 21 years old. And thinks of what an aunt told him years earlier. If you live to be 21, you're going to have a good life. I guess I -- it was significant.

TODD: He and his men don't realize they were among the first Americans to confront the Germans' final massive counter attack of the war. The battle of the bulge.

KERSHAW: Had they not stood and held the Germans and halted their attack, or rather postponed it for a crucial 24 hours, the battle of the bulge would have been a great German victory.

TODD: Instead, the allies regrouped. Subdue the Germans and push to Berlin. Bouck and his men spent four months in freezing, disease infested prison camps and are near death when they're liberated by their own army division. After he was liberated, Lyle Bouck was too weak physically to file a combat report and not of the mind to do it. This 21-year-old hero simply didn't think he had done anything extraordinary.

BOUCK: We were in those fox holes and what we did was defended ourselves. And to try to live through it.

TODD: Bouck says he still has no idea why those German paratroopers didn't kill him and his men after their capture. Alex Kershaw whose new book "The Longest Winter" recounts this story does have an idea.

KERSHAW: The paratroopers said and others have said since, we had too much respect for you. We put ourselves in your position and imagined what we would have been done. Eighteen guys, massively out numbered. You fought like lions.

TODD: Sixty years later, an old lion can laugh about it. Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: And still much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. At the top of the hour, "Next@CNN." At 4:00, it's "CNN Live Saturday." I'll talk with the United States attorney involved in prosecuting that shocking murder of a pregnant woman and the theft of her unborn child.

And at 5:00 "People in the News" profiling rapper LL Cool Jay and --

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired December 18, 2004 - 14:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD: It's 2:00 p.m. on the East Coast, 11:00 a.m. out West. I'm Fredricka Whitfield at CNN's global headquarters in Atlanta. Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
Ahead this hour, the latest on the stories stunning America. Police now know what happened but they're still searching for the reasons why.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you live to be 21, you're going to have a good life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: New details on the capture of Saddam Hussein from a man who was there. If it's a CNN exclusive.

Also she took Celebrex until yesterday. What's she going to do now and what should you do?

Those stories in a moment but first the headlines.

Police say a Kansas woman has confessed to killing a 23-year-old pregnant mother at this Missouri home and cutting the baby from the woman's womb. The infant girl was later recovered and united with her father. A full report coming up less than a minute from now.

Former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet is in the Santiago Military Hospital at this hour. Doctors say the 89-year-old general suffered a stroke. Next week, a court is scheduled to decide if Pinochet will be under indictment and house arrest for crimes committed during his regime.

A warning for users of Straterra, a drug used to treat Attention Deficient Hyperactivity Disorder. New labels say the medication should be discontinued in patients who jaundice or laboratory evidence of liver injury. There are reports of an adult and a teenager developing liver problems after taking Straterra for several months. The FDA says there were no signs of liver problems during the drug's clinical trials.

Keeping you informs, CNN, the most trusted name in news.

A child stolen from her mother's body is in good condition at a Kansas Hospital today. Police say, Bobbie Jo Stinnett was found dead in her home in Missouri laying a pool of blood. The local sheriff called it the most gruesome crime he had ever seen. A Kansas woman is in custody for the crime, confessing to strangling Stinnett and cutting the unborn child out of her body. A FBI affidavit says Lisa Montgomery has been charged in the kidnapping of the child resulting in the death of the infant's mother. The baby was found alive. She was taken to a hospital where her father met her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRY HOWARD, FAMILY FRIEND: I believe that he probably doesn't know what he's feeling right now considering I don't know how somebody could be so happy and so sad to have it happen. But be so sad at the same time to have such a tragic thing happen. But I do feel that he will have a piece of Bobbie with him for the rest of his life and I'm so very glad they got his daughter back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The Missouri town of Skidmore tries to cope with the crime of a mother to be killed for her child. Jim Flink of CNN affiliate, KMBC has more on the crime that shocked the nation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TODD GRAVES, U.S. ATTORNEY: Our victim had pictures on the Internet of herself and so forth. They hooked up through that message board.

JIM FLINK, KMBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And it was that Internet meeting, authorities say, that ultimately led to Bobbie Jo Stinnett's murder. Authorities say she was supposed to meet a woman named Darlene Fischer at her home Thursday to sell her a purebred rat terrier. Darlene Fischer, authorities say, was Lisa Montgomery, with murder on her mind.

Police believe Montgomery strangled Stinnett from behind then cut her 8-month-old baby fetus from her stomach. Stinnett, left in a pool of blood. Family and neighbors are still shocked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I just can't understand why anybody would do a trick like that, you know? I just don't know why.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This stuff doesn't happen, you know? These are the really bad TV shows you don't watch. And this happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say two threads of information clinched this case. First, an AMBER Alert putting out a call for a red car -- it almost didn't happen.

SHERIFF BEN ESPEY, NODAWAY COUNTY, MISSOURI: We may have not ever recovered this little baby if the AMBER Alert system was not put into place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's also apparent that after this case is over, there's going to have to be a little adjustment made to this. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The other, the FBI tracked all communication on the victim's computer, which led right to the doorstep of Lisa Montgomery.

GRAVES: They were virtually and literally simultaneous. A tip and they were going through the computer forensics at the same time. And two leads, you know, crossing make that the best lead you've got and the one you move the quickest on.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: And that was reporter Jim Flink of CNN affiliate KMBC.

Another twist to a mystery involving a missing Arizona couple. Tom and Jackie Hawks were last seen in mid-November. Police in New Port Beach, California have now arrested a man who bought the Hawks' 55-foot yacht. Skyler Julius Dilian (ph) is accused of money laundering. Police say the charges associated with the purchases of the boat. The Hawks are not seen since they sold the boat for several hundred thousand dollars. Investigators found the Hawks' car in Insana (ph), Mexico. A hearing Dilian is now scheduled for Monday.

Two key members of Saddam Hussein's former regime questioned in a Baghdad court. One of those associates was Ali Hassan al-Majid, also know as "Chemical" Ali, for his alleged use of chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds. Today's hearing was not part of upcoming trials of one- time leaders including Saddam. Al-Majid's trial is expected to be first starting as early as next week.

One of men who helped with the capture of Saddam Hussein is an Iraqi-American named Samir. We first told you his amazing story last summer. Coming up, he joins us live to share his feelings about the current situation in Iraq. That's happening at the bottom of the hour.

And anti-terrorist police in Spain have arrested four men accused of starting up an Islamic terror base in the Canary Island. The four are being flown under heavy guard to Madrid. The police say they belong to a group linked to al Qaeda. One of the four is suspect of involvement in the Madrid train bombings that killed 191 people last March.

CNN's security watch and the biggest U.S. intelligence reform in more than 50 years, and the struggle to make it happen. The president says the intelligence reform bill now law will help protect Americans.

But as Dana Bash reports, several people point out how the president opposed some crucial steps along the way.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The president gets credit from all involved for personally pushing the intelligence reform measure over the finish line. However, many recall he was initially a skeptic if not a critic of the effort. TIM ROEMER, (D), 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: The president was Johnny-come-lately to this. Better late than never.

BASH: At first, he fought creating the independent 9/11 Commission, saying a congressional probe was adequate.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My judgment is best for ongoing war against terror that the investigation be done in the Intelligence Committee.

BASH: September 11 victims families lobbied and six months later, the president signed on. Then, a series of skirmishes. From some quiet struggles over boosting its initial $3 million budget to larger public battles turned political pressure points.

The commission wanted broad access to classified documents, especially the president's own daily intelligent briefings, what he knew about Al Qaeda's threat.

BUSH: It's important for the writers of the presidential daily brief to feel comfortable that the documents won't ever be politicized and/or unnecessarily exposed for public purview.

BASH: The president resisted, but later compromised. Another flashpoint, whether National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice would testify at commission hearings. The White House initially refused, citing executive privilege. Again, it later gave in, as it also did in agreeing the president and vice president would answer commissioners questions, though that was still private.

JIM THOMPSON, (R), 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBERS: There was controversy along the way and obviously disagreements from time to time.

BASH: The 9/11 Commission's recommendations were yet another example. In the heat of the presidential campaign, Democrat John Kerry embraced them immediately. Mr. Bush initially was more circumspect.

BUSH: The 9/11 Commission also made...

BASH: But then backed the reforms and after public pleas from some fellow Republicans still unsure how serious his support was, Mr. Bush eventually used his reelection capital to push the bill through Congress.

DAVID GERGEN, FMR. WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: The president faced the political necessity of not losing on this, not being overrun, and not seeming to care about this intelligence. I think that's one of the reasons they came around.

BASH, (on camera): Some of the president's critics also note he initially resisted, then embraced creating the Homeland Security Department, but even they say these reforms were enacted relatively quickly and the bottom line, it's the Bush signature on this law and that's what history will remember. Dana Bash, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: President Bush is promoting the economic agenda. In his Saturday radio address, Mr. Bush says, he'll work with the Democrats overhauling social security, making taxes simpler and reducing government spending. Democrats want the tax cuts rolled back and say his the Social Security plan is too expensive and there are reports of a possible freeze in government spending as the Bush economic program takes shape. The president will announce the budget plans in February.

Well, stay with us because Ron Brownstein is standing by to talk about the president's week. He's standing by right there. And he'll be talking about the week including the push for Social Security reform.

Also, an influential consumer group is demanding the government ban Celebrex.

And a CNN exclusive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They asked me to tell him to ask him, put your hand up. We want to see your hand. I saw him put your hand up. And it was like, one hand. I said, let me see your other hand. And he did this. I said, no, both hands up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: This is a man who first touched Saddam Hussein when he was captured a year ago. Samir's amazing story coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A cornerstone of the Bush economic agenda is reforming Social Security, the most controversial ideas, partly privatizing Social Security. But the details of paying for the plan are still unclear.

CNN's political analyst Ron Brownstein is with us from New York to sort out how things might be moving forward.

Good to see you, Ron.

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD:: Paying for the plan is unclear. In fact, the plan itself is unclear, isn't snit.

BROWNSTEIN: Absolutely. First of all, when we're talking about Social Security, we are talking about arguably the most effective government program of all time. It's something that provides benefits right now to 47 million Americans. So this is a debate that has more immediate impact for Americans than most of the thing that is are discussed in Washington. The president has laid out some principles for what he wants to see in Social Security reform. And he did so once again this week at his economic conference, but did -- has not endorsed a specific plan.

He has said he wants a Social Security reform that includes individual accounts that workers can invest in the stock market, no change in benefits for those in retirement or near retirement and he doesn't want to raise taxes. There are some implications of that that are going to be at the center of the debate.

WHITFIELD: And it's likely to reach an uphill battle when, at the beginning of the year, this plan is divulged from the president, isn't it?

BROWNSTEIN: Right. First of all, we're not 100 percent sure there ever will be a specific plan. They're suggesting there will be, but we don't know. He may have general principles. Here's some of the issues, Frederick. Most people agree it requires some changes. The way that the system works is that the payroll taxes paid by today's worker go to fund the benefits of today's retirees. The problem is, the demography of the country is changing, we're getting older, there are few work for each retiree. So, there is a long-term financing gap between what we promised and what we can afford.

The debate is over how you close that gap. The president wants the private accounts, but critics say that would require us to have massive borrowing in the short run to replace the money that would now be going to pay benefits. Under his plan, a workers taking 2 or 4 percent of the payroll tax and put into an account for themselves. You have to replace that money to keep the benefits going to todays seniors. That could require as much as 2 trillion in borrow over the next decade. Even more the decade after that. There are a lot of people concerned about adding that much to the national debt.

WHITFIELD: And the borrowing might be inconceivable. I mean, huge, particularly because we're talking about the baby boom generation either retiring or about to retire. A growing number of people who are going to be relying upon Social Security or something equivalent.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, well, I mean, what the administration says is that the status quo is not an option. If you keep the program exactly the way it is, we will not be able to pay the benefits promised over the long term. Now, it's not an immediate. The Social Security actuaries say we can pay the benefits until 2042. The Congressional Budget Office says until 2052. What the president says, is to make the program stable over the long run, in fact, he's offering the country a trade.

We will allow you to divert part of these taxes into accounts you can invest for yourself, but we're going to reduce the growth in the guaranteed benefit. And that's the other controversial element. The way to make this add up, is that there will be less of a guaranteed benefit than there would be under current law for people out into the future. He's only said, as I mentioned, that he doesn't want to change the benefits for people at or near retirement. The implications of that of course, it would be changed for people who are further away from retiring.

WHITFIELD: All right. In our last 15 second or so, Ron, the reform bill. Something that the president signed off on initially. The commission didn't get the support. However, this is a political feather in the cap for the president, isn't it, for any successes coming from it?

BROWNSTEIN: Anytime the president invest himself in legislation, he bears the -- he gets some of the credit for it. And in this case, the president did push over the line the intelligence reform bill. The big question, of course, will be as Dana pointed out in her piece, there was a lot of skepticism in the administration about the ideas, particularly creating the national intelligence director. How will it be implemented. Something like this will only counts, will only have effect if it is done in a way that really creates power and centralizes powers in this new office. We have to wait and see how that will play out.

WHITFIELD: All right. Ron Brownstein, thanks so much. Good to see you. Happy holidays.

BROWNSTEIN: Thank you. Happy holidays to you.

WHITFIELD: Well, the Food and Drug Administration is advising doctors to think about giving patients something other than the popular pain drug Celebrex. A new study shows the painkiller could increase the risk of heart attacks. Pfizer isn't taking it off the market just yet however, but the consumer group, Public Citizen, is urging the government to ban Celebrex.

Jason Carroll looks at how users are reacting to the news.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the past year, Neela Rastogi-Shapiro has had to walk slowly on lunch breaks, ever since she hurt her knee from overdoing it in the gym. As recently as Thursday, she took Celebrex. Not anymore.

NEELA RASTOGI-SHAPIRO, CELEBREX USER: I'm in my 30s. I shouldn't be worried about heart problems and cardiovascular problems. I'm too young for this. I only have knee problems.

CARROLL: Shapiro started out taking Vioxx but that painkiller upset her stomach, so her doctor suggested Celebrex. That was weeks before Vioxx was pulled for its risk of causing heart attacks and strokes. Now there may be risks associated with Celebrex. Shapiro wonders what to do now.

DR. GARY MEREDITH, RHEUMATOLOGIST: How are you today?

CARROLL: Rheumatologist Gary Meredith is Shapiro's doctor.

MEREDITH: I think people are going to ask is it safe to continue to take it. What we'll probably try to do is see if we can minimize the dose or possibly substitute another medication for those that are at high risk.

CARROLL: Dr. Meredith says as late as Thursday he spoke with representatives from Pfizer, the company that manufactures Celebrex. He says that company rep made no mention of any potential problems.

SHAPIRO: My pain comes and goes.

CARROLL: Now, Shapiro says she's going to look at other options.

SHAPIRO: At this point, I want to experiment on other alternatives -- natural remedies, homeopathic remedies, holistic medicine or maybe not take anything.

CARROLL (on camera): Medical experts say people taking Celebrex should meet with their doctors and, if there is a history of heart disease, weigh the risks vs. the benefits of staying on Celebrex.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: And one other medical story of high interest today, the government is easing restrictions on the flu vaccine. The CDC recommends shots available to anyone 50 and over starting January 3rd. The flu vaccine supply cut in half this fall due to manufacturing problems. But it turns out there's a surplus. Many people didn't try to get a shot apparently. Plus the U.S. bought additional vaccines from Europe.

Coming up, Michael Jackson opens Neverland to children and the camera crews. We'll take you inside.

And a little retro holiday magic. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Well, perhaps your idea of the good old days holidays dates back to 1962? If so, remember aluminum Christmas trees? The books "Seasons Gleaming" is filled with photographs of these vintage trees. And we spoke with the photographers about Christmas past.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN SHIMON "SEASON'S GLEAMINGS": When people pick up "Seasons Gleamings," it might hit them as being not quite right because I think what you want to see is a book about Christmas collectibles or both Christmas decorating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a lot of visual culture. And I hope that as people look at the images that they stop for a moment and ponder just all the little nuances. There was this feeling at the time after the wars that there was this desire for glitz and glamour and luxury and aluminum trees fit into that. And the idea of bring newness to something that was traditional. MAYOR KEVIN CRAWFORD, MANITOWOC, WISCONSIN: The Aluminum Specialty Company did a variety of unusual small aluminum products, from salt shakers to camping sets. And in the early '60s they were invited to produce an aluminum Christmas tree for a specialty sale in Chicago. They produced the trees from about 1960 to about 1968.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They made them rotate. They made them pink. They made them green, gold. They made them with blue tips on the branches. They made all sorts of accoutrements to light them. And so there's all sorts of textures and varieties and colors. But makers of the trees were very concerned that consumers not hang string electric lights on the branches. If they would do that, they would be electrified and they could be electcuted.

So there was a caution that said to avoid electric shock, please do not string lights on the branches. So we did a photograph called "Short Out" showing the tree strung with lights and then tipping over. To decorate the tree, you would use turning lights, color wheels. You would make the tree rotate and decorate it very simply with small, colored balls and keep it very minimal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're very productive community. A blue collar community and very proud of it. And the thing that is we made in the past now raining into the future, I think, are very important for our history.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Seasons Gleamings" is going to make people (UNINTELLIGIBLE) think about some of the past and how maybe this company or these things affected their life, and what meaning it might have for them, that that would be a really great thing about it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, coming up, an Iraqi forced to flee to America comes face to face with Saddam.

Samir's story a year after the dictator's capture.

And Scott Peterson and the death sentence. Was justice served? Stay with us. We'll talk about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Our top stories, President Bush is pushing his economic reform program in the Saturday radio address. He spoke about overhauling Social Security and making the tax code simpler. Meantime, his economic advisers have sharply lowered the number of jobs expected to be created next year.

Authorities arrest a suspect in a horrifying murder/kidnap case at this Missouri home. A pregnant woman was killed and a fetus cut from her womb. The baby survived and is now with her father. Police arrested a Kansas women, Lisa Montgomery, who confessed to the crimes. A motive is still unknown.

And a former Iraqi general accused of gassing Kurdish civilians in the 1980's undergoes interrogation in a Baghdad courtroom. Known as chemical Ali he is accused of war crimes. Also in court for today's pretrial hearing, was Saddam's former defense minister. The hearing was not part of the planned up coming war crimes proceeding of Saddam Hussein and 11 other members of his regime.

Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news.

Well, it's been just over a year since Saddam Hussein was captured by U.S. special forces and Iraqi-American named Samir helped capture the former dictator. Samir will join me in a few minutes to talk about his life since that historic moment but first, Samir describes the capture of Saddam Hussein to CNN special contributor Ron Young.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAMIR: On December 13th, we knew we have info, Saddam is there on that farm hidden somewhere on that farm. But we had his bodyguard. He is the one we were looking for because we knew he would lead to Saddam and we got enough about 8:00 p.m. Saturday night. Forces went inside. And they searched the whole farm and there's no sign of Saddam. The guy shows exactly where the bunker is.

RON YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The bodyguard showed you where the bunker was?

SAMIR: Yes. He said, pointing with his finger, he said dig in here. It is really hard to see it was the bunker where is it's covered with dirt. It's the hole? Can't be. Initially when you think about looking for Saddam Hussein, the dictator and he started yelling inside. And they said, Samir come talk to him. Tell him to come out. He starts telling don't shoot. Don't kill me. Don't shoot. They ask me to ask him put your hands up. We want to see your hands.

I tell him put your hand up. It was like, one hand. I said, let me see your other hand. He did this. I said, no. Both hand up. He stick both hands up. And I reached and I caught him. I grabbed him. I was like, I'm not going to let him go but these guys like, they don't know what I do. I'm like in the hole. They pull me back. They were so close to the -- they saw and everyone got a piece of Saddam. We pulled him out. And I look at him. Oh. I knew that was Saddam. His face. That was Saddam. I told them, this is Saddam.

They didn't believe me at first. They said, ask him his name. And I said, this is Saddam. They said, no, ask him! And I ask him, what is your name? He said, first, he said, uh, what is your name? He said, I'm Saddam. And then, Saddam what? I had to grill like, yell at him. He said, I'm Saddam Hussein. And he called me a traitor. And a spy. And he make me really upset. And I had to -- I was so angry. I don't know really punch him a couple of times in the face. Grabbed him from his beard and they told me to stop. That's enough. He said, you didn't win the war. He said, you didn't win the war. The war's not over. We tell him that. The war is over!

(END VIDEOTAPE) WHITFIELD: And Samir joins us now to share his thoughts about the situation in Iraq since the capture of Saddam Hussein and what your life has been like Samir since your participation in the capture of Saddam Hussein. What has this past year been like?

SAMIR: Well, to be like really great for me because I share my story with my people. I share my story with the American and I like to talk about it because a lot of people wondering what happened. They want to know like what the real story is. This is the real story. And I was there during the capture. And I'm glad I was there. I can tell the Iraqis what happened and the cower man, as he call himself, the hero. How he pulled him out of that battle hole.

WHITFIELD: So when you talk to Iraqis about what happened and when you reflect on those events you reflected on in that tape, what is their point of view of Saddam Hussein during your interview, you said called you a traitor and a spy. What are other Iraqis calling you?

SAMIR: Well, it depends. Like, you know, you know, most Iraqis, they hate Saddam. They hated Saddam but there is some loyal to Saddam -- some people loyal to Saddam in the country. But, you know, to me, my people I know and my parents, they really proud of me of what I did and most people I talked to, they're glad to hear what happened and I was there. They are really happy about what happened. Saddam's gone. The Baath party is gone. They don't have to deal with it anymore. That's like a big concern about the future of the Iraqis.

WHITFIELD: You mentioned the loyalists. Now, there was an overall feeling that perhaps after the capture of Saddam Hussein that the number of attacks of violence of the insurgency would drop. Instead it has been completely the opposite. Do you believe these are loyalists to Saddam who are responsible for the violence that we're seeing or is the emphasis really on the hate for westerners or the coalition influence?

SAMIR: Well, I'll say it's part of it is the Saddam's loyalists, but the most -- the attack on insurgents happen right now in Iraq, they're fighters. They're like Iraq's neighbors. They came from these Gulf countries. To fight even before the war started. I was working with the forces and we captured some of these terrorists. They were like foreign fighters. They come to the country as a terrorist. To -- they don't like to see Iraq having election. They don't like to see Iraq having a free country on a new president. They don't like to see that so that's basically right now what happened in the country. Some Iraq cans are involved, too.

WHITFIELD: What about for you Samir what is next? Do you believe that you would be called to testify if and when there's a trial involving Saddam Hussein since you participating in his capture?

SAMIR: Well, if I have the opportunity, I will love to. And I want to. But if I have the opportunity, I will do it but, you know, mostly most of the Iraqi citizens, they like to see Saddam on justice. They like to see Saddam brought to court and to get his punishment. They really do. As soon as possible.

WHITFIELD: All right. Samir thanks so much for joining us and sharing with us your story of participating in the capture of Saddam Hussein, one year ago this week, in fact.

SAMIR: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Coming up, Michael Jackson meets and greets at Neverland. Could this help or hurt in his upcoming criminal trial?

And a little later on --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you live to be 21, you're going to have a good life. I guess I -- it was significant.

WHITFIELD: One story of bravery from World War II that few people knew until now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Despite legal troubles, entertainer Michael Jackson extended a surprise welcome to children visiting his Neverland ranch in California. Jackson's spokeswoman insists the appearance has nothing to do with next months scheduled trial on child molestation. CNN's Miguel Marquez has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIQUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Michael Jackson welcomes children to his Neverland ranch, something his public relations person says he does all the time. What's different this time? The media was invited to watch.

MICHAEL JACKSON: Welcome to my ranch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you!

MARQUEZ: The visit comes days before a lengthy pretrial hearing during which Jackson's legal team is expected to ask that the trial dates of January 31st be pushed back by six weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't answer any questions with regards to his trial. I'm sorry.

MARQUEZ: Jackson's spokeswoman Raymone Bain (ph) says Jackson often has groups of kids to Neverland Ranch but he usually doesn't greet them. He did this time, she says, because the last tour of the holiday season.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why allow press into this particular gathering at this particular time?

RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON'S SPOKESWAMAN: Because you have asked. Over the last several months. MARQUEZ (on camera): Jackson has been charged with among other things, lewd acts against a child and conspiracy, he has pleaded not guilty to all charges. While in Neverland Ranch, there were about 80 kids and about three dozen adults who were greeted by Michael Jackson. They were expecting around 200. CNN asked several times to speak to some of the adults who were supervising the kids. We were denied that request. Miquel Marquez, CNN, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Well, the Michael Jackson case is a focus of our "Legal Round-up" today. With us from Cleveland, civil rights attorney and law professor Avery Friedman. Good to see you.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi Fredricka. Nice to see you.

WHITFIELD: Hello. And in New York, criminal defense attorney Richard Herman. Good to see you Richard.

RICHARD HERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right, you guys. Well lets begin with you Richard, you know, the premise of having this open forum for the kids at Neverland, what would be the motivation for Michael Jackson's defense team? Apparently his attorneys OK'd it.

HERMAN: Oh, Fred. It's damage control for him right now. Look at that clip we just saw. This guy looks so weird. He is so freaky looking and this case is going to go to trial in a very conservative jurisdiction. It's damage control. It is trying to help his image, his public image but I think it was a horrific experience for them to do that. I think this guy's got big problems.

WHITFIELD: How would that back fire?

HERMAN: Because look at what he looked like with that crazy general outfit on with the umbrella. I have never seen anything like it. This guy is nuts. Didn't help him at all, really. It hurt him doing that today.

WHITFIELD: But Avery perhaps his legal team is saying, look, here he is among children, no one's complaining. This solidifies the case that, you know, he is a friend to the children.

FRIEDMAN: Well, you know what? I can't figure out what the heck the legal team had in mind here making no sense because, again, we are facing a jury of his peers whatever that -- I don't think Michael Jackson has a peer but a jury and whether or not this is poisoning the jury pool or not, I don't know but I genuinely think this is how Michael Jackson does things. And often, they will make decisions irrespective of what the lawyers are saying, Fredericka. So to me it was a mindless act and typical Michael Jackson.

WHITFIELD: But you don't see it necessarily hurting his case? FRIEDMAN: I don't see it hurting him. Just a mindless act. Doesn't make any sense. We're one month away from selecting that jury. God only knows.

WHITFIELD: OK. All right Richard.

HERMAN: I bet you that Jackson's happy that he let Geragos go. (INAUDIBLE) Don't you?

WHITFIELD: We'll see how it unfolds if in January there's indeed a trial.

HERMAN: Right.

WHITFIELD: Well let me ask you something, too about is this case, there are no prior convictions, yes there was a settlement years ago involving up to $25 million. We understand Avery you say that in California, there can be included what's called propensity evidence. What is that?

FRIEDMAN: Well, about ten years ago, California followed the federal rules, rule 413 which permits similar acts but the difficulty, Fredericka, is that this rule introducing propensity evidence, that is, he is likely to molest or abuse children, is fraught with danger. What a judge has to do is balance similar acts with the prejudicial effect of that kind of evidence would be.

And you know what's going to happen here you are going to have trials within the trial and talk about a circus. If propensity evidence is introduced and I think we are going to see it in this case, we are going to have many trials within a trial and it is going to be a mess.

WHITFIELD: Well Richard something or someone we may see in the case if it does indeed go to trial is the ex-wife, Debbie Roe (ph) she has been subpoenaed to testify. What might she say that would either hurt or help Michael Jackson's case?

HERMAN: That's very interesting. You know, in most cases, in all cases, a wife cannot be compelled to testify against her husband. Here, this is an ex-wife subpoenaed and the reason she is subpoenaed is she now has an action pending in family court claiming Michael Jackson to be an unfit father. She's seeking custody so the prosecution is going to try to use any and all evidence that she may be having to prove he is just an unfit person and shouldn't be around children. That is where is coming from.

WHITFIELD: OK, let's talk now about the Scott Peterson case it wrapping up with the sentencing coming down from the jurors. A death sentence. But now, his attorneys are saying they're going to appeal. On what grounds might they appeal, Richard?

HERMAN: Well Fredricka there are a slew of grounds that are going to be used this case on appeal and just you have to know that most jury verdicts are not reversed. You have to know that at the outset but here one of the most compelling issues is the fact that Judge Delukey (ph) denied Geragos' request to put on a buoyancy expert, by denying that later he allowed the jury to go down, take a look at this boat and a few jurors actually get in the boat and perform their own buoyancy experiment.

WHITFIELD: And Avery you are disagreeing on all of that?

FREIDMAN: I don't think that's the big issue to me on appeal and I understand what Richard is saying, but to me, you had a foreman who took notes, responsible guy, Greg Jackson, had a law degree and a medical degree and he decides he is not getting along with anyone and all of a sudden he is excused. I think that's a big issue which the California Supreme Court will absolutely consider and whether or not to affirm this capital sentence.

HERMAN: Hey Fredricka, I think the boat evidence will do it and I think it is going to be reversed.

FRIEDMAN: We'll see.

HERMAN: A new trial and then interesting, we'll see Amber Frey and her publicist Gloria --

WHITFIELD: I knew you wanted to get that in. One more time.

HERMAN: A great book deal and how long it's been pending and how much they made on this book deal.

WHITFIELD: Oh my gosh.

HERMAN: That will be interesting.

WHITFIELD: I know your phone will soon be ringing off the hook and Gloria giving you a jingle Richard.

HERMAN: I don't think so.

WHITFIELD: All right Avery Friedman, Richard Herman thanks so much, gentlemen.

HERMAN: Happy New Year.

WHITFIELD: Happy holidays.

FRIEDMAN: Happy holidays.

WHITFIELD: Happy New Year.

All right coming up, more arrests after arson devours several homes in a Maryland subdivision.

And a personal side of war as told by a hero from the battle of the bulge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Our stories across America now. Weeks after election day, the battle over the governor's race in Washington State drags on. The state Republican party wanted -- won a victory yesterday when a judge granted a request to block King County from counting hundreds of recently discovered ballots. The judge said it was simply too late for counties to reconsider the ballots. The state Democratic party has appealed the ruling to the State Supreme Court. Republicans Deno Rossi (ph) won the November 2nd election over a Democrat Christine Ragrq (ph) by 261 votes in the first count and then by 42 votes after a second recount.

In Maryland, three more men are charged with arson in connection with a fire at an upscale subdivision under construction 30 miles from Washington, D.C. The suspects were taken into custody this morning. Their arrests follow the admission by a security guard he was involved in the December 6th fires. The flames destroyed or damaged dozens of homes.

And in the nation's capital, a familiar landmark disappeared. Washington's old convention center was brought down today by a planned implosion. A new mix use development will be built on that site.

Sixty years ago this week, the battle of the bulge, Germany's last major offensive in World War II claims tens of thousands of lives it took place in Southeastern Belgium. During one of Europe's coldest and snowiest winters. The great heroes of the battle of the bulge are in their 80s now and remembering. Here's CNN's Brian Todd.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): After 58 years of marriage, Lyle Bouck and his wife Lucy are still helping each other down the front walk.

LUCY BOUCK, WIFE OF WAR VETERAN: I didn't think we'd lose that war.

TODD: At one point, Lyle didn't think he'd make it to the altar.

LYLE BOUCK, BATTLE OF THE BULKGE VETERAN: Maybe even at this point, I can't measure some of it.

TODD: But he certainly can remember. Sixty years back as a young whip smart lieutenant commanding an U.S. army intelligence and reconnaissance platoon, 18 elite soldiers, the eyes and ears of a fragmented allied force pushing through Belgium toward the German border. By mid-December of 1944, they've just about reached the border but there's a huge gap in the front lines and Bouck's platoon is ordered to plug an isolated stretch of it on a hill.

BOUCK: We weren't trained to occupy a defensive position in the front lines. We were trained to patrol and get information about the enemy.

TODD: But the enemy finds them December 16th, a huge column of German paratroopers gets wind of Bouck's platoon dug in on that hill. The Germans throw a total of 700 men in three waves at Lyle Bouck and 17 other Americans. ALEX KERSHAW, AUTHOR, "THE LONGEST WINTER:" And they were told to hold the house. Basically, that meant until you're killed or taken prisoner.

TODD: But by day's end, hundreds of Germans are dead. Some Americans are badly wounded but not one is killed and their only captured running out of ammunition. As he is interrogated inside a house nearby, Lyle Bouck watches a clock stroke midnight. At that moment, he turns 21 years old. And thinks of what an aunt told him years earlier. If you live to be 21, you're going to have a good life. I guess I -- it was significant.

TODD: He and his men don't realize they were among the first Americans to confront the Germans' final massive counter attack of the war. The battle of the bulge.

KERSHAW: Had they not stood and held the Germans and halted their attack, or rather postponed it for a crucial 24 hours, the battle of the bulge would have been a great German victory.

TODD: Instead, the allies regrouped. Subdue the Germans and push to Berlin. Bouck and his men spent four months in freezing, disease infested prison camps and are near death when they're liberated by their own army division. After he was liberated, Lyle Bouck was too weak physically to file a combat report and not of the mind to do it. This 21-year-old hero simply didn't think he had done anything extraordinary.

BOUCK: We were in those fox holes and what we did was defended ourselves. And to try to live through it.

TODD: Bouck says he still has no idea why those German paratroopers didn't kill him and his men after their capture. Alex Kershaw whose new book "The Longest Winter" recounts this story does have an idea.

KERSHAW: The paratroopers said and others have said since, we had too much respect for you. We put ourselves in your position and imagined what we would have been done. Eighteen guys, massively out numbered. You fought like lions.

TODD: Sixty years later, an old lion can laugh about it. Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: And still much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. At the top of the hour, "Next@CNN." At 4:00, it's "CNN Live Saturday." I'll talk with the United States attorney involved in prosecuting that shocking murder of a pregnant woman and the theft of her unborn child.

And at 5:00 "People in the News" profiling rapper LL Cool Jay and --

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