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CNN Live Saturday
Brian Nichols Gives Up
Aired March 12, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CHARLES WALTERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE: Brian Nichols gave himself up peacefully without any aggressiveness. And he's currently under arrest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, a peaceful end to a violent crime spree that left four people dead and a deputy in critical condition. Welcome to a special edition of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. We are going to show you exclusive video of Brian Nichols taken shortly after he allegedly opened fire inside an Atlanta courthouse Friday morning.
Hello, I'm Carol Lin at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Hours ago, he was still on the run, but the man who triggered the largest manhunt in Georgia history is finally in custody. And police say the list of his victims is growing. Here is a timeline of the events leading up to the capture of Brian Nichols. Late last night, a disturbing find, police discovered the Honda they say Nichols carjacked in the same parking garage where it was initially stolen. It turns out authorities never finished searching the garage after seeing the Honda leave on a security camera tape. And then today, another development, a federal agent was shot to death north of downtown Atlanta. Was this another trail to Brian Nichols?
At around 2:00 a.m., police say a woman was taken hostage in her suburban Atlanta home. She called 911 later than morning. The suspect surrendered at her apartment building less than two hours later. Now, we have reporters covering all the angles of this story for you. Right now, we are going to start with CNN's Gary Tuchman. He is at City Hall in Atlanta.
Gary, take us through the events. Things have been happening so quickly over the last 24 hours.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And quickly it has, Carol. A short time ago, local and national law enforcement authorities held a news conference here at the Atlanta City Hall. And if they have their way, Brian Nichols will never see the sun shine again as a free man. After a reign of terror that began yesterday morning around 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time, he was apprehended outside a townhouse in Gwinnett County, Georgia, which is about 25 minutes to the northeast of where we are right now. He was inside a home. According to authorities, he forced a woman, at 2:00 in the morning, as you said to let him inside her home. Somehow, she got out, called 911 and then when authorities came with rifles, about 30 of them, SWAT team members, he came out, waved a white shirt, and surrendered.
A short time ago, we talked with the police chief from up there in Gwinnett Country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTERS: An officer responded to the call of a woman who said that Mr. Nichols was in fact in her apartment and had held her captive for a certain amount of time. She was able to get out of the apartment and call us. We activated our SWAT team and the uniform people. And the SWAT folks were able to contain the area. We had approximately 30 officers on the scene, 30 SWAT officers on the scene. Shortly after their arrival, Mr. Nichols surrendered, literally waving a white flag. So it ended as well as a situation like this can possibly end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: ... holding facility to a City Hall auxiliary building to a federal courthouse where he is right now just two blocks away from the state courthouse where this all began yesterday. When he was initially transported from that Gwinnett County townhouse to the FBI holding facility, there were 30 to 40 FBI Georgia Bureau of Investigation, ATF, SWAT team members outside the facility with rifles pointing in his direction for two reasons: one, they know how dangerous this man is after what happened, but they're concerned that he may have had friends in the area.
The security was immense. One FBI agent telling me it was the most elaborate security in the history of the state of Georgia for one individual. People, members of the public, came to the FBI building. They were about a half a mile behind us. We were standing about 50 yards from the car and they started applauding as the police cars pulled in. But it was a reign of terror that began yesterday at 9:00 a.m. and people all over the metropolitan area were very frightened and are now very relieved it's all over.
LIN: And still a lot of questions. Gary Tuchman...
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... right now is we do have a hostage situation. SWAT is employed. We have basically locked down the area. As you can tell, we're not letting anyone inside the apartment complex. If anyone inside the apartment complex is watching right -- this right now, they are safe, just lock all your doors and stay inside.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The end of a 26-hour manhunt. SWAT teams close in on courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols, hiding out in an apartment in an Atlanta suburb. Police say he gave up peacefully before he was cuffed and patted down, mobbed by SWAT officers and then whisked away in a Chevy Suburban to a local FBI field office.
WALTERS: At approximately 9:50, our units responded to a call, a female stating that she was in the apartment with Brian Nichols. TUCHMAN: Police say the caller who tipped them off was a stranger who didn't know Nichols before he made his way into her apartment. She was forced inside with him but somehow called 911.
WALTERS: She was able to get out of the apartment and called us. And our SWAT team responded. They deployed and were able -- our uniform folks were able to control the scene, kept him contained. Shortly after the arrival of our SWAT team, Mr. Nichols surrendered to us without incident.
TUCHMAN: Just hours before, a Federal Immigration and Customs agent was killed, his truck stolen. Police officials say the assistant special agent in charges' badge and his gun were also found inside the apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say to the people of Gwinnett County and the entire Georgia region can rest easier with the knowledge that this suspect from yesterday's horrible events in Fulton County has been apprehended.
TUCHMAN: He's in federal custody, awaiting an arraignment sometime soon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN: Authorities tell us last night, around 10:40 Eastern Time, Nichols was in the Buckhead section of Atlanta, which is about 25 minutes north of where we are, and he mugged two tourists who were here for the SEC Basketball Tournament at Atlanta this week. They say he wanted their money, he wanted their vehicle. He did not get a vehicle. We don't know if he got money but he did injure one of those tourists.
How did he get up there from here, this area where he was in the courthouse? Originally, they thought he was in a get away car. They found that car, as you said, Carol, in a garage. It turns out, they say, he took the subway, with all of the other members of the public, took the subway up there. What he did between the morning yesterday and 10:00 when that mugging occurred, police yet don't know. He will be in court, as we said, this week coming up -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thanks very much. Gary Tuchman reporting live. We've got much more on the events that followed that attack near the MARTA Station, but first, there are a lot of questions about the initial part of the manhunt itself. Authorities spent much of yesterday looking for a 1997 green Honda Accord allegedly carjacked by Nichols. Well, it was found in the same parking garage where it had been taken, prompting many to wonder how much time was wasted looking for Nichols in the wrong vehicle.
Our Randi Kaye is at the scene where the car was found --Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, I can tell you that what's come to light today are a series of missed opportunities and lost time in a manhunt for Brian Nichols. I'm at the garage here where he apparently came about a half hour after the shooting, at the Fulton County courthouse. And as you mentioned, police did believe that he left here in that 1997 Honda. Well, we have some exclusive video. CNN has some exclusive video of Brian Nichols inside this garage. We can show that to you now. It shows him driving the Honda in the garage here. It also shows him walking down the stairway after we now have learned that he had parked that Honda. Investigators didn't ask to look at this video until after a private citizen had actually discovered that the Honda was still parked here.
Now, it turns out that that Honda Accord was parked right below where it had apparently been carjacked. The Accord was parked on the second level here at the garage, and it had been carjacked on the third level. So if investigators had just simple walked around this garage, they may have actually found that Honda.
Now, we did a walk through through this garage with a former FBI agent to get his thoughts on that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: What should have been done when they came here to investigate a carjacking, and then put out an alert on a car that was parked right here? What were the proper steps that should have been taken?
HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, in retrospect, what you would say is this place should have shut down. And it may have been shut down for two to three, four hours, whatever it would take to make sure there was nothing else in this deck that that we need to know.
KAYE: Right. If you just go over to right here...
COPUS: It was this...
KAYE: One level down.
COPUS: One level down.
KAYE: So close that if they had just walked a little bit farther...
COPUS: I know.
KAYE: ...they could have seen it.
COPUS: Isn't that scary?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: Fourteen hours had passed in that time from the time that that carjacking occurred until the time that they had located that Honda here, and that was all during a five state high alert. Five states here on high alert in the southeast region looking for that 1997 Honda.
Now, what makes this even worse is that at a press conference today, the Atlanta police chief revealed that Brian Nichols actually walked out of this garage, they now believe, and that he jumped on the Atlanta public transportation system known as MARTA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA POLICE: All of the information that they've received from witnesses and sources indicated that the vehicle had left the scene. And so we did not search the entire parking garage. Remember, we still thought he was in the car, so we had no reason to close down MARTA because we thought he was still in the Honda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: That former FBI agent that we spoke with today tells us that this garage should have been on lockdown. We know the courthouse was on lockdown, but he said the garage should have been lockdown, downtown Atlanta should have been on lockdown. He also says that MARTA, that public transportation system here in Atlanta, who does have their own security, should have been alerted to be on the look out for someone matching Brian Nichols description -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Randi.
We are going to have much more on our lead story and the investigation and how the events unfolded and what changes, if any, are going to be made in the court system, but first, I want to take you to some other breaking news.
There has been a shooting of a church group in a hotel, a Sheraton hotel, just outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. There is a news conference going on right now. We can tell you that four people are dead, seven to eight people hospitalized. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) County Sheriff, the Town of Brookfield Police Department, and the City of Pewaukee Police Department, the Elm Grove Police Department, and the Wisconsin State Patrol. We are at the early stages of this investigation. We are working in cooperation with the district attorney's office. District Attorney Paul Buker (ph) is here with us, the medical examiners office, the victim assistance, the FBI, ATF, and the U.S. attorney's office. Additionally, we are working very closely with the management staff at the Sheraton and their parent company, Starwood Hotels.
The victims who died at the scene was a male, approximately 15 years of age, a male, approximately 17 years of age, a male, approximately 72 years of age, and a female, approximately 55 years of age. The suspect is a male, approximately 45 years of age. Of the seven victims that were transported, a male approximately 58 years of age, a male approximately 50 years of age, a female approximately 52 years of age, a female approximately 20 years of age, a male approximately 20 years of age, a male approximately 44 years of age, and a female approximately 10 years of age -- of those seven victims that were transported to the hospital, three have subsequently succumbed to their injuries. So in total, we have 11 victims, four dead at the scene, seven transported, three subsequently died, one suspect that was dead at the scene. The information I have on the church, again for those of you that weren't at the earlier press conference, this was a regularly scheduled church service or meeting. The church is called The Living Church of God, headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina. They had been meeting at the Sheraton for the past four or five years on Saturdays from 10:00 a.m. until noon.
Information I can share with you on the suspect, it was either a member or somehow affiliated with the church and is a resident of Waukesha County.
Again, we beg for your indulgence on releasing good, credible information. We would like to provide that to you. And for that purpose, we are scheduling the press conference tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. I'd be happy to entertain just a few questions.
LIN: All right. This is what we do know after that brief news conference that a gunman broke into a regularly scheduled church meeting at a Sheraton hotel just outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So far, a total of seven people dead, eight if you count the gunman himself who shot himself at the scene. What we do know about the gunman is that he's 45 years old. He may have been a member of the church and he lived in Waukesha County. Again, a regularly scheduled church meeting. They have not elaborated yet on the motive. Few people still left injured at the hospital.
We will be following this story as well as well as our top story here on the capture of Brian Nichols, the gunman who killed four people in Atlanta, including a federal agent and a superior court judge. We'll be right back. Much more on the investigation in that matter. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: All right, we want to get back to the top story now, the capture of Brian Nichols, the rape suspect, the murder suspect, now after a killing spree where -- has left four people dead, including a judge and a federal agent. We want to show you more about where he was actually taken into custody, the scene where he was taken into custody. CNN's Tony Harris is at that apartment complex where the manhunt ended. It is just north of Atlanta in a suburb of Duluth in Gwinnett County.
Tony, the show of force that came out today when that arrest went down was simply massive. These agents were not taking any chances.
TONY HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And that is so true. What I'd like to do here for a moment, Carol, is take my time and work everyone through this story. There has been a lot of wonderful reporting on CNN all afternoon long about the events the series of events that unfolded. After the woman who was the victim of this home invasion in this apartment complex right behind me, after she somehow won her freedom from Brian Nichols and then made her way a short distance to a leasing office and made that 911 call that set in motion all of the massive law enforcement response that you just eluded to, but what I'd like to do is I'd like to take folks back to say eight hours before. Let's keep in mind; the call was made at approximately 9:54 this morning.
Let's go back eight hours to around 2:00 a.m. this morning and this is the story that law enforcement officials here tell us that that this woman told them about her ordeal at the hands of Brian Nichols at approximately 2:00 a.m., she leaves her apartment and she goes a short distance to a local gas station where she picks up some cigarettes. She comes back to her apartment. She's about to enter her apartment and at that moment, Brian Nichols appears out of nowhere, brandishing a weapon and he forces her into the apartment, into her apartment. Now, the home invasion is on. At some point, she is bound, tied up and thrown at some point in time into a bathtub.
Now, here is where the story gets just extraordinary. In the minutes, hours, we don't know how long, that they talked back and forth, the woman does an extraordinary thing, she tells Brian Nichols about her life, aspects of her life, details that we won't get into here, but what she in effect does is to humanize herself to Brian Nichols. At some point, he unties her. And this is the story that we have had confirmed by three law enforcement officials as the story this woman told police. It's extraordinary. Brian Nichols then demands that she get into her car and follow him, leave the grounds, follow him as he attempts to dispose of the pick-up truck that we've talked about for much of the day, that we now know belonged to the now deceased U.S. Customs agent.
She is fearing for her life. He is threatening here. I obviously know where you live. I'm in the apartment complex with you. She decides to go along with this demand. She gets into her car and follows Brian Nichols. He disposes of the car about two to five miles away from here, and then he gets into her car. They come back to the apartment. They go back inside her apartment. Another several hours transpire, and at some point, she is able to talk herself, we don't know if he decided to release her or she managed to talk her way out. She leaves the apartment, makes a short trip over to the leasing office and makes the 911 call. Officers respond, SWAT responds.
Let's listen now to the 911 byte, the information from the 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SUSAN BOLDIN, 911 DISPATCHER: We had a female call in saying that he was in her apartment.
HARRIS: And what did you guys do?
BOLDIN: I spoke with her myself, and I sent the call up as a possible wanted person located.
HARRIS: And you guys have dispatched units?
BOLDIN: Yes, we dispatched regular units and they have called for a specialized team to go out there and handle it.
(END AUDIO CLIP) HARRIS: Gwinnett County Police Officer Anthony Bassy (ph) was the first on the scene. He talked to the woman, determined that her story was credible, called in. The backup, SWAT team, comes on to the scene. And a short time later, as you know, Carol, Brian Nichols waves the universal surrender sign, a white towel or a t-shirt. He comes out, hands above his head. He surrenders and as you know the rest of the story, he is now in FBI custody.
LIN: Tony, that is a remarkable story of survival.
HARRIS: It really is.
LIN: The hat is off to that woman because that's exactly what they tell any of us who have been through war zone training, if you're ever taken hostage; try to humanize yourself with your captor. And she did, obviously an excellent job that saved her life. Thank you.
HARRIS: And it is -- and it is why she's being called a champ today. Thanks, Carol.
LIN: You bet. All right, thanks very much. Tony Harris live out there in Gwinnett County.
All right, we want to now take you back hours before Nichols was actually captured. Authorities believe he killed a federal agent nearby in Atlanta's Buckhead area. And CNN's Drew Griffin was at the scene all day. He joins me now on details of that investigation.
Drew, do you know whether there was a connection at all between the suspect and this agent?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As far as we know, no. And you know, from 9:30 yesterday morning until his capture this afternoon, anybody in metro Atlanta was a potential target of this man, and this tale of the last person to fall is a very scary example of the randomness of this violence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFFIN (voice-over): This is the final victim on this trail of killing that began shortly after 9:00 yesterday morning. Forty-year- old David Wilhelm's body was carried from a crime scene eight miles north of the Fulton County courthouse. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent gunned down in a home he was having built and according to Atlanta's chief of police, the killer was Brian Nichols.
PENNINGTON: He went to 926 Canter Road where he shot a Customs agent and took his truck and he took his weapon, his Glock, and he took his identification and I.D. We know that for a fact.
GRIFFIN: It is the how and why the paths of Nichols and Wilhelm collided on this upscale street, which so far can't' be explained. Wilhelm was an exemplary officer with U.S. Customs, an award winner responsible for busting smuggling rings, dope dealers and financial criminals. He served in the Virginia and the Carolinas before being promoted last November to assistant special agent assigned to Atlanta's airport, one of the busiest in the nation. And it was down this street he and his wife were building their Atlanta home.
TINA WILHEMI, DESIGN CONSULTANT: I can't believe it.
GRIFFIN: Tina Wilhemi was helping the couple pick out tile and glass for their new home. She says David Wilhelm did much of the work on his own and they often joked about the similarity of their last names.
WILHEMI: He was excited about moving to Atlanta and moving to this new home. And he was real proud of the tile work.
GRIFFIN: Perhaps Wilhelm just happened to be here working last night when Brian Nichols decided to make a trip down what would have been a dark street, a random turn and a random killing, and according to Kenneth Smith, David Wilhelm's boss and friend, a terrible random loss.
KENNETH SMITH, ICE SPECIAL AGENT: On behalf of the entire ICE family, we first send our thoughts and our prayers to Agent Dave Wilhelm's family and friends. Agent Wilhelm's death is tragic loss for the entire law enforcement community, particularly our office here in Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFFIN: David Wilhelm is survived by his wife and his brother, who is also a Customs enforcement agent here in Atlanta. He told us right now, Carol, the family is just too broken up to talk about it publicly.
LIN: Clearly, understandable the randomness of the crime and it's so unfair.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
LIN: All right, thank you very much, Drew Griffin, for that.
We have much more on this story. In fact, the prosecution is going forward, obviously, in this case, the murder cases, but also, as you might recall, Brian Nichols was on trial for rape. What happens now, as that case -- does it go forward? How does the jury make a decision? I'm going to be talking with our legal expert. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Welcome back. Brian Nichols is expected to face federal and state charges stemming from the courthouse shootings and the death of a federal agent. So let's talk with legal eagles and analysts now with -- exact, with former U.S. Attorney Kendall Coffey in Miami.
Kendall, I want to draw on your experience here, because, you know, we had a news conference about an hour and a half ago, and the authorities were rather vague about how exactly this case is going to go forward. Why is it that they can't come up with more specific charges at this time? They're holding him on a fire arms charge right now.
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, we don't know where this is going, Carol. He's going to be charged with homicides. There are certainly a number of state and federal charges that could put him on death row. Meanwhile, they simply want to meet, work through what the procedure is going to be, which prosecution, state or federal, is going to go first. And you may recall when D.C. sniper John Mohammed was originally arrested it was on a federal fire arms charge. They held him under that status until they were able to sort out how and who would do the prosecution. And of course, as we know, John Mohammed has now been sentenced to death in his own death row in Virginia.
LIN: It seems like a cut and dried case, though. I mean this guy is in a courtroom full of witnesses. He opens fire. Three people are shot right then and there, and then the killing spree continues. So what are the potential question marks in your mind?
COFFEY: Well, I think the defense in a case like this is always going to think they have to, and properly so, they have to do everything they possibly can. For example, the big issue is going to be venue. Wherever case is charged, state or federal, there's go to be an attempt by the defense to get it moved out of the Atlanta area where right now I'm sure the entire community is traumatized by the event. Beyond that, the only other real issue is what can be done if anything to keep him from being sentenced to death because he's assuredly going to be convicted on multiple capital charges.
LIN: Well, I interviewed his defense attorney in the rape trial, and he said the only way he can see out for Brian Nichols is that he declares some form of insanity.
COFFEY: Well, and he's going to try to do that, but as we know, insanity is a defense to beat a guilty rap, almost never works. It's very narrow in legal terms. It just means not really being able to know what you were doing right or wrong. His mental state, if anything at all, is going to become a factor in the capital phase. After conviction, we then go to a separate procedure to determine life or death. And then in that part of the case, juries can consider some of the issues of mental impairment, temporary or not.
LIN: Kendall, never mind that, what about the rape trial? We actually heard that the rape trial is going to go forward this coming week. But specifically, the wording was that they were going to resolve the rape trial this week. What does that mean? Does that mean that that whole case could fall apart too?
COFFEY: Well, if you're the defense lawyer, Carol, you walk in Monday morning and say I'm moving for a mistrial. Ironically, you're moving for a mistrial because your client committed horrible murders and has created so much publicity against him, airwaves absolutely bombarded with news about this atrocities that no jury in America, certainly no jury in Atlanta, could give him a fair trial right now on those rape issues. LIN: Well, I think that's fair to say, don't you, Kendall?
COFFEY: I do.
LIN: I think the jury is pretty traumatized itself. Thank you very much for your legal expertise today.
COFFEY: Thank you, Carol.
LIN: All right. Brian Nichols is a person with a history and a family. And his family, frankly, is in shock over the crimes that he's accused of committing over the past 30 plus hours. CNN's Kathleen Koch has been talking to some of Nichols' relatives in Baltimore, Maryland.
Kathleen, what do they have to say about this man?
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, friends and family here are really in a total state of disbelief. They say that this man charged with these brutal murders in Atlanta is simply nothing like the Brian Nichols they once knew.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH (voice-over): In this working class neighborhood in northeast Baltimore, Brian Nichols was someone to look up to. He played supports and graduated from a local Catholic school, Cardinal Gibbons High School. He played football at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) University in Pennsylvania.
CURTIS POPE, NEIGHBOR: He was an athlete, basketball, football, martial arts, but never someone who would use martial arts on a negative note. So it was always positive.
KOCH: Maxine Glober who didn't want to appear on camera lived next door to Nichols.
MAXINE GLOBER, NEIGHBOR: A normal, young child playing with the other kids on the block, very well mannered, had no problem with him at all.
KOCH: Nichols's brother, Mark, who now lives in Plantation, Florida, tells CNN he's very upset in a statement saying -- quote -- "Everyone knows me as the brother of the person who killed those people."
Nichols' uncle offered condolences to the families of those killed in Atlanta.
REGGIE SMALLS, UNCLE: And our hearts go out to them. And Brian is a nice young man as far as we knew. I don't know what happened.
KOCH: That's the question now for friends like Charles Franklin who grew up with Nichols and is now a pastor at a local church.
CHARLES FRANKLIN JR., CLASSMATE: Now, I just hope that they're able to do some kind of psychiatric assessment of him just to see at what point that his life changed so drastically, at what point did he break.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH: And there is no reaction yet tonight from Nichols' parents. They are living in Africa where his mother worked. They're due though to be back in the area perhaps as soon as next week -- Carol.
LIN: Kathleen, any of these friends and family up in Baltimore, are they planning on flying down here and seeing Brian Nichols, talking to him themselves?
KOCH: At this point, no, we haven't' spoken to anyone who has made those plans, but again, these people are all stunned right now, again, in total shock about the charges now that he is facing, what he allegedly did. So perhaps when we speak with them later on today -- we're going to be contacting them again and also tomorrow -- perhaps they'll be making those plans. But we haven't heard of any such plans at this point.
LIN: Got you. All right, tanks very much. Kathleen Koch reporting live from Baltimore.
We have much more on the story. In fact, I interviewed Brian Nichols' defense attorney who was defending him against these rape charges in that very courtroom where he opened fire. You'll hear what he had to say about a premonition that something like this might happen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTERS: He literally waved a white flag or a t-shirt and came out, and surrendered to our folks. The excellent thing is we had sufficient force there. There was no alternative to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: That was Police Chief Charles Walters of Gwinnett County, Georgia, describing today's arrest of courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols. Now, his capture and at the most massive manhunt in Georgia history, and here to talk about that and the events that preceded Nichols' escape is former FBI agent Don Clark.
Don, when you take a look at the events, sure, an ending that we all had hoped for, that this man is now in custody, but there was so much confusion in the very beginning even an admission by Atlanta police that they did not finish searching the garage where eventually the car that had been broadcasted all over the airwaves, the getaway car, had been found, had been parked right under their very noses.
DON CLARK, FORMER FBI AGENT: Yes, Carol, absolutely. You know I have to tell you, Carol, that in these situations, and I've been in many, and I don't have any information as to what exactly took place there, but I know from my experience that it is chaotic in the beginning. And this one was really chaotic in taking place. And there are a number of people -- and I make no excuses for the law enforcement, but there are a number of people who are trying to get information to the right parties and trying to get information out so that they can apprehend this person, and they have no idea what the suspect is doing but yet they're trying to follow through. And yes, this may turn out to be egregious error, but nonetheless, I think because of the chaos that was taking place, that when you're in the midst of battle, you can sometimes see it happening.
LIN: Would have, should have, could have. We are sewing folks here, the viewers, exclusive videotape that CNN had from our very own security cameras of Brian Nichols in that very garage as he is either entering or leaving it but clearly on the premises, just a couple of blocks away from us. You know who really, I think, is the hero in this case is that woman, the last hostage that he took, the woman who had the presence of mind, tied up in her bathroom to somehow make a human connection with him that may have saved his life and bought enough time for her to get to call 911.
CLARK: Well, you're absolutely right, Carol. And in often times, the citizens are the ones who really step up to the plate, and maybe whatever their training or background may be, are just their natural instincts. And from everything I've heard about this lady is that here's a lady who just decided to use her own personal instincts and bring some personal connection between her and Brian. It's a person that she had never seen before. The profilers will have a good time with this, trying to figure out how to use these types of techniques in the future.
LIN: Because even after she made that connection, he untied her but he told her, get in your car and follow me as I try to dump this car that I had stolen from somebody else. She actually followed him. Would you recommend that that was a method to build his trust because then they returned back to her apartment building after that? And it was only after that point somewhere that he let her go because frankly, I would have just gotten on the highway and gone for the telephone.
CLARK: You know -- you know what, Carol? I think most people would have probably done that same thing, and perhaps myself, too. I think the idea of following, you know, you can't argue with success now, but I have to tell you, I think too that I might -- would have tried to take a detour and go to some other location to make that phone call.
LIN: Yes. All right, well how -- where do they go from here? What are the tricks in this case that you see, the bumps in the road ahead because it seems pretty clear cut right now, but it's not?
CLARK: No, they're never clear cut. And what you've got now is you've got venue to be concerned about, you got jurisdiction to be concerned about. You've got federal, and state, and local that's involved in this. And I think what they're going to try to do -- and I've heard of a charge that's there, some type of gun charge, and that's to make sure that he is kept tight until they can, no. 1, put together a solid case because no matter how it appears to us as the outsiders, Carol, cases have to be made from bottom to top to get through there court system. And then they have to determine which venue -- which court should have their strongest case...
LIN: Do you have an opinion?
CLARK: ...to try and make first.
LIN: Do you have an opinion? He's in federal custody right now. Who's got the better chance of getting the death penalty in this case, state or federal?
CLARK: Well, I actually think that the state has a better chance of getting the death penalty even though Timothy McVeigh was a death penalty candidate; I actually think the state would have the best chance. But I think what they'll do first is try to go with their strongest case first and make sure that they get one locked in, one secured and then they can work their way through the other circumstances.
LIN: All right, Don Clark, thank you very much.
CLARK: Thank you, Carol.
LIN: Well, Brian Nichols was in the Fulton County courthouse being retried on rape charges on Friday when police say the shooting spree began. Earlier, I spoke with Nichols' defense attorney in that case, Barry Hazen, to find out what he could tell us about the suspect's demeanor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARRY HAZEN, ATTORNEY FOR BRIAN NICHOLS: He was festive is what I e-mailed his mother. I indicated that I thought his attitude was almost festive.
LIN: Which was inappropriate given the circumstances. Was the trial necessarily going his way? I hear it was not.
HAZEN: No, I didn't think the trial was going his way at all. The second trial was a lot stronger in terms of the evidence presented then was the first. I did not think that he was going to have the favorable result in the second trial that he had in the first.
LIN: And what was going through his mind then?
HAZEN: It's hard to say. You know some people just accept their fate. Perhaps he was thinking I'm not going to be here for the verdict. I don't know. I can't read his mind, but that was the last time I spoke with him, and I made particular note that his attitude was jovial, nothing that gave me an indication that he was going to respond violently. If anything, it gave me the indication that maybe he just didn't care anymore. He was accepting his fate and his was going to make as much of a joke out of it as he thought.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Now, you want to stick around for the rest of my interview with Barry Hazen tonight at 8:00 Eastern because he talks about a prophetic meeting they had in the judge's chambers just a day before the shooting broke out. Much more ahead on this subject as well and our top story, so stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Eight people are dead and more than -- and more are wounded after a shooting at a suburban Milwaukee, Wisconsin hotel. Police in Brookfield say a gunman opened fire on a church meeting and then turned his gun on himself. Four victims died at the scene. Seven were rushed to Milwaukee area hospitals where three later died. There is no word yet on what the shooter's motive may have been but we are following this story very closely.
And right here in CNN's own back yard, our top story of the day of a shooting spree in Atlanta. Let's take a moment though to remember the victims. Fulton County Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes was the presiding judge over the suspect Brian Nichols' rape trial. He was fatally shot in his courtroom. Barnes was a well- respected judge who presided over some high profile cases right here in Atlanta. Also shot was court reporter Julie Ann Brandau. She was known for baking cookies and sweets for her colleagues and jurors. She is survived be her 18-year-old daughter. And then there was veteran sheriff's deputy, Sergeant Hoyt Teasley, who was shot dead outside the Atlanta courthouse. He was a married father of two. Authorities say all of this happened after Brian Nichols overpowered Deputy Cynthia Hall and took her gun as he was being led from a detention area into the courtroom. She suffered serious head injuries and she is in critical condition, but is expected to survive.
Perhaps the luckiest victim was "Atlanta Journal Constitution" reporter Don O'Briant. O'Briant says Nichols put a gun to his head, demanded his car keys and told him to climb into the truck. Well, he refused and was pistol ripped for refusing.
Today, another person was found shot dead. His name is David Wilhelm, a U.S. Immigration and Customs enforcement agent, and he was found this morning in Atlanta. His truck was found near the apartment complex where Nichols was finally captured.
Now, as we mentioned, the judge who was killed was extremely well respected and liked both on and off the bench. Judge Henry Newkirk knew Judge Barnes professionally and personally and he's been a friend of the Barneses family for the last 20 years.
The last 24 hours obviously had to be both frightening and heart- wrenching.
JUDGE HENRY NEWKIRK, FULTON COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: Carol, it's been devastated for the entire community with the law enforcement ancients going 24/7 to find the suspect. There's been an awful lot of tension in the city. There is a great sigh of relief from a lot of sectors in the city... LIN: Right.
NEWKIRK: ...that now that he finally is apprehended.
LIN: And a lot of would have, should have, could have, Judge. You know what the security situation should have been given that very special circumstance and yet, we are hearing Monday morning, it's going to be business as usual. What needs to be done in that courtroom?
NEWKIRK: Well, it's not going to be business as usual. Things are going to change. People are going to reassess the way we've -- had been doing business. We're going to make sure procedures are followed more closely.
LIN: What was -- what broke down?
NEWKIRK: I think the proper procedures were in place. I think that the procedures were violated. There's no question that...
LIN: Which procedure was violated?
NEWKIRK: Well, I don't think -- believe that in a controlled cell area where the initial incident took place the officer should have had a gun with an unshackled defendant.
LIN: Well, you had a situation too where you had a rape defendant, 6-foot-2, 220 pounds, being guarded by a sheriff's deputy, a female sheriff's deputy, 54 years old. Was that an appropriate decision to be made?
NEWKIRK: I don't believe so. And I know Deputy Hall. I like her. She's worked in my court. She's a fine person. Sometimes we have lapses in our judgment. And this is the first time something like this has happened in Fulton County in my memory, and I have been down there for 23 years. And sometimes day after day of handling the inmates, it's...
LIN: Becomes routine.
NEWKIRK: ... it sometimes becomes routine and we get careless. Deputy Hall is a good deputy but I think that she just had a lapse.
LIN: There was a question about a juror in the case may have actually seen the defendant handcuffed at one point. There is a precaution to protect a defendant's right that the jurors not see them shackled. It may influence their decision. There was a discussion with Judge Barnes in the courtroom about that. Did that influence somebody to make the decision to unshackle him earlier than should have been?
NEWKIRK: I'm not privy to that discussion. However, I do know that the sheriff's department is in charge of security. And if it becomes a matter of security versus having jurors see them, the sheriff has to make sure that the public is safe and the defendant is secure while being transported. LIN: In the seconds we have left, Judge Barnes, what would he want -- how would he want the court reporters, the bailiffs, the other judges, the sheriff's deputies -- come Monday morning, how would he want them to handle the day?
NEWKIRK: He would want them to reevaluate their procedures and make sure that this incident never happens again. Fulton County will be changed. There will be changes in all the judge's procedures and the sheriff's procedures and everybody will be more cautious. And I hope that we remain that way for the next 50 years because after another 20 years, we may fall back into certain lapses and get lazy, and that's how things like this happen.
LIN: You can't afford the complacency.
NEWKIRK: That's right.
LIN: Well, it is a great loss, both the judge, the court reporter, and the deputy. Thank you.
NEWKIRK: All right, thank you, Carol.
LIN: Well, we have much more to cover on this story, so please stay with us for our special coverage of the capture of Brian Nichols.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Well, that's all the time we have for this hour, but coming up next, "THE CAPTIAL GANG," and then at 8:00 Eastern, I'll be back with a live, special broadcast of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. We are going to have complete coverage of today's capture of Brian Nichols. And please, be sure to stay tuned for a special "LARRY KING LIVE" at 9:00 Eastern, tonight's focus will, of course, be today's dramatic events in and around Atlanta. Right after a break, a check of the day's headlines.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 12, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CHARLES WALTERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE: Brian Nichols gave himself up peacefully without any aggressiveness. And he's currently under arrest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, a peaceful end to a violent crime spree that left four people dead and a deputy in critical condition. Welcome to a special edition of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. We are going to show you exclusive video of Brian Nichols taken shortly after he allegedly opened fire inside an Atlanta courthouse Friday morning.
Hello, I'm Carol Lin at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Hours ago, he was still on the run, but the man who triggered the largest manhunt in Georgia history is finally in custody. And police say the list of his victims is growing. Here is a timeline of the events leading up to the capture of Brian Nichols. Late last night, a disturbing find, police discovered the Honda they say Nichols carjacked in the same parking garage where it was initially stolen. It turns out authorities never finished searching the garage after seeing the Honda leave on a security camera tape. And then today, another development, a federal agent was shot to death north of downtown Atlanta. Was this another trail to Brian Nichols?
At around 2:00 a.m., police say a woman was taken hostage in her suburban Atlanta home. She called 911 later than morning. The suspect surrendered at her apartment building less than two hours later. Now, we have reporters covering all the angles of this story for you. Right now, we are going to start with CNN's Gary Tuchman. He is at City Hall in Atlanta.
Gary, take us through the events. Things have been happening so quickly over the last 24 hours.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And quickly it has, Carol. A short time ago, local and national law enforcement authorities held a news conference here at the Atlanta City Hall. And if they have their way, Brian Nichols will never see the sun shine again as a free man. After a reign of terror that began yesterday morning around 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time, he was apprehended outside a townhouse in Gwinnett County, Georgia, which is about 25 minutes to the northeast of where we are right now. He was inside a home. According to authorities, he forced a woman, at 2:00 in the morning, as you said to let him inside her home. Somehow, she got out, called 911 and then when authorities came with rifles, about 30 of them, SWAT team members, he came out, waved a white shirt, and surrendered.
A short time ago, we talked with the police chief from up there in Gwinnett Country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTERS: An officer responded to the call of a woman who said that Mr. Nichols was in fact in her apartment and had held her captive for a certain amount of time. She was able to get out of the apartment and call us. We activated our SWAT team and the uniform people. And the SWAT folks were able to contain the area. We had approximately 30 officers on the scene, 30 SWAT officers on the scene. Shortly after their arrival, Mr. Nichols surrendered, literally waving a white flag. So it ended as well as a situation like this can possibly end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: ... holding facility to a City Hall auxiliary building to a federal courthouse where he is right now just two blocks away from the state courthouse where this all began yesterday. When he was initially transported from that Gwinnett County townhouse to the FBI holding facility, there were 30 to 40 FBI Georgia Bureau of Investigation, ATF, SWAT team members outside the facility with rifles pointing in his direction for two reasons: one, they know how dangerous this man is after what happened, but they're concerned that he may have had friends in the area.
The security was immense. One FBI agent telling me it was the most elaborate security in the history of the state of Georgia for one individual. People, members of the public, came to the FBI building. They were about a half a mile behind us. We were standing about 50 yards from the car and they started applauding as the police cars pulled in. But it was a reign of terror that began yesterday at 9:00 a.m. and people all over the metropolitan area were very frightened and are now very relieved it's all over.
LIN: And still a lot of questions. Gary Tuchman...
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... right now is we do have a hostage situation. SWAT is employed. We have basically locked down the area. As you can tell, we're not letting anyone inside the apartment complex. If anyone inside the apartment complex is watching right -- this right now, they are safe, just lock all your doors and stay inside.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The end of a 26-hour manhunt. SWAT teams close in on courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols, hiding out in an apartment in an Atlanta suburb. Police say he gave up peacefully before he was cuffed and patted down, mobbed by SWAT officers and then whisked away in a Chevy Suburban to a local FBI field office.
WALTERS: At approximately 9:50, our units responded to a call, a female stating that she was in the apartment with Brian Nichols. TUCHMAN: Police say the caller who tipped them off was a stranger who didn't know Nichols before he made his way into her apartment. She was forced inside with him but somehow called 911.
WALTERS: She was able to get out of the apartment and called us. And our SWAT team responded. They deployed and were able -- our uniform folks were able to control the scene, kept him contained. Shortly after the arrival of our SWAT team, Mr. Nichols surrendered to us without incident.
TUCHMAN: Just hours before, a Federal Immigration and Customs agent was killed, his truck stolen. Police officials say the assistant special agent in charges' badge and his gun were also found inside the apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to say to the people of Gwinnett County and the entire Georgia region can rest easier with the knowledge that this suspect from yesterday's horrible events in Fulton County has been apprehended.
TUCHMAN: He's in federal custody, awaiting an arraignment sometime soon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCHMAN: Authorities tell us last night, around 10:40 Eastern Time, Nichols was in the Buckhead section of Atlanta, which is about 25 minutes north of where we are, and he mugged two tourists who were here for the SEC Basketball Tournament at Atlanta this week. They say he wanted their money, he wanted their vehicle. He did not get a vehicle. We don't know if he got money but he did injure one of those tourists.
How did he get up there from here, this area where he was in the courthouse? Originally, they thought he was in a get away car. They found that car, as you said, Carol, in a garage. It turns out, they say, he took the subway, with all of the other members of the public, took the subway up there. What he did between the morning yesterday and 10:00 when that mugging occurred, police yet don't know. He will be in court, as we said, this week coming up -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thanks very much. Gary Tuchman reporting live. We've got much more on the events that followed that attack near the MARTA Station, but first, there are a lot of questions about the initial part of the manhunt itself. Authorities spent much of yesterday looking for a 1997 green Honda Accord allegedly carjacked by Nichols. Well, it was found in the same parking garage where it had been taken, prompting many to wonder how much time was wasted looking for Nichols in the wrong vehicle.
Our Randi Kaye is at the scene where the car was found --Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, I can tell you that what's come to light today are a series of missed opportunities and lost time in a manhunt for Brian Nichols. I'm at the garage here where he apparently came about a half hour after the shooting, at the Fulton County courthouse. And as you mentioned, police did believe that he left here in that 1997 Honda. Well, we have some exclusive video. CNN has some exclusive video of Brian Nichols inside this garage. We can show that to you now. It shows him driving the Honda in the garage here. It also shows him walking down the stairway after we now have learned that he had parked that Honda. Investigators didn't ask to look at this video until after a private citizen had actually discovered that the Honda was still parked here.
Now, it turns out that that Honda Accord was parked right below where it had apparently been carjacked. The Accord was parked on the second level here at the garage, and it had been carjacked on the third level. So if investigators had just simple walked around this garage, they may have actually found that Honda.
Now, we did a walk through through this garage with a former FBI agent to get his thoughts on that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: What should have been done when they came here to investigate a carjacking, and then put out an alert on a car that was parked right here? What were the proper steps that should have been taken?
HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, in retrospect, what you would say is this place should have shut down. And it may have been shut down for two to three, four hours, whatever it would take to make sure there was nothing else in this deck that that we need to know.
KAYE: Right. If you just go over to right here...
COPUS: It was this...
KAYE: One level down.
COPUS: One level down.
KAYE: So close that if they had just walked a little bit farther...
COPUS: I know.
KAYE: ...they could have seen it.
COPUS: Isn't that scary?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: Fourteen hours had passed in that time from the time that that carjacking occurred until the time that they had located that Honda here, and that was all during a five state high alert. Five states here on high alert in the southeast region looking for that 1997 Honda.
Now, what makes this even worse is that at a press conference today, the Atlanta police chief revealed that Brian Nichols actually walked out of this garage, they now believe, and that he jumped on the Atlanta public transportation system known as MARTA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA POLICE: All of the information that they've received from witnesses and sources indicated that the vehicle had left the scene. And so we did not search the entire parking garage. Remember, we still thought he was in the car, so we had no reason to close down MARTA because we thought he was still in the Honda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: That former FBI agent that we spoke with today tells us that this garage should have been on lockdown. We know the courthouse was on lockdown, but he said the garage should have been lockdown, downtown Atlanta should have been on lockdown. He also says that MARTA, that public transportation system here in Atlanta, who does have their own security, should have been alerted to be on the look out for someone matching Brian Nichols description -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Randi.
We are going to have much more on our lead story and the investigation and how the events unfolded and what changes, if any, are going to be made in the court system, but first, I want to take you to some other breaking news.
There has been a shooting of a church group in a hotel, a Sheraton hotel, just outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. There is a news conference going on right now. We can tell you that four people are dead, seven to eight people hospitalized. Let's listen in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) County Sheriff, the Town of Brookfield Police Department, and the City of Pewaukee Police Department, the Elm Grove Police Department, and the Wisconsin State Patrol. We are at the early stages of this investigation. We are working in cooperation with the district attorney's office. District Attorney Paul Buker (ph) is here with us, the medical examiners office, the victim assistance, the FBI, ATF, and the U.S. attorney's office. Additionally, we are working very closely with the management staff at the Sheraton and their parent company, Starwood Hotels.
The victims who died at the scene was a male, approximately 15 years of age, a male, approximately 17 years of age, a male, approximately 72 years of age, and a female, approximately 55 years of age. The suspect is a male, approximately 45 years of age. Of the seven victims that were transported, a male approximately 58 years of age, a male approximately 50 years of age, a female approximately 52 years of age, a female approximately 20 years of age, a male approximately 20 years of age, a male approximately 44 years of age, and a female approximately 10 years of age -- of those seven victims that were transported to the hospital, three have subsequently succumbed to their injuries. So in total, we have 11 victims, four dead at the scene, seven transported, three subsequently died, one suspect that was dead at the scene. The information I have on the church, again for those of you that weren't at the earlier press conference, this was a regularly scheduled church service or meeting. The church is called The Living Church of God, headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina. They had been meeting at the Sheraton for the past four or five years on Saturdays from 10:00 a.m. until noon.
Information I can share with you on the suspect, it was either a member or somehow affiliated with the church and is a resident of Waukesha County.
Again, we beg for your indulgence on releasing good, credible information. We would like to provide that to you. And for that purpose, we are scheduling the press conference tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. I'd be happy to entertain just a few questions.
LIN: All right. This is what we do know after that brief news conference that a gunman broke into a regularly scheduled church meeting at a Sheraton hotel just outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So far, a total of seven people dead, eight if you count the gunman himself who shot himself at the scene. What we do know about the gunman is that he's 45 years old. He may have been a member of the church and he lived in Waukesha County. Again, a regularly scheduled church meeting. They have not elaborated yet on the motive. Few people still left injured at the hospital.
We will be following this story as well as well as our top story here on the capture of Brian Nichols, the gunman who killed four people in Atlanta, including a federal agent and a superior court judge. We'll be right back. Much more on the investigation in that matter. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: All right, we want to get back to the top story now, the capture of Brian Nichols, the rape suspect, the murder suspect, now after a killing spree where -- has left four people dead, including a judge and a federal agent. We want to show you more about where he was actually taken into custody, the scene where he was taken into custody. CNN's Tony Harris is at that apartment complex where the manhunt ended. It is just north of Atlanta in a suburb of Duluth in Gwinnett County.
Tony, the show of force that came out today when that arrest went down was simply massive. These agents were not taking any chances.
TONY HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And that is so true. What I'd like to do here for a moment, Carol, is take my time and work everyone through this story. There has been a lot of wonderful reporting on CNN all afternoon long about the events the series of events that unfolded. After the woman who was the victim of this home invasion in this apartment complex right behind me, after she somehow won her freedom from Brian Nichols and then made her way a short distance to a leasing office and made that 911 call that set in motion all of the massive law enforcement response that you just eluded to, but what I'd like to do is I'd like to take folks back to say eight hours before. Let's keep in mind; the call was made at approximately 9:54 this morning.
Let's go back eight hours to around 2:00 a.m. this morning and this is the story that law enforcement officials here tell us that that this woman told them about her ordeal at the hands of Brian Nichols at approximately 2:00 a.m., she leaves her apartment and she goes a short distance to a local gas station where she picks up some cigarettes. She comes back to her apartment. She's about to enter her apartment and at that moment, Brian Nichols appears out of nowhere, brandishing a weapon and he forces her into the apartment, into her apartment. Now, the home invasion is on. At some point, she is bound, tied up and thrown at some point in time into a bathtub.
Now, here is where the story gets just extraordinary. In the minutes, hours, we don't know how long, that they talked back and forth, the woman does an extraordinary thing, she tells Brian Nichols about her life, aspects of her life, details that we won't get into here, but what she in effect does is to humanize herself to Brian Nichols. At some point, he unties her. And this is the story that we have had confirmed by three law enforcement officials as the story this woman told police. It's extraordinary. Brian Nichols then demands that she get into her car and follow him, leave the grounds, follow him as he attempts to dispose of the pick-up truck that we've talked about for much of the day, that we now know belonged to the now deceased U.S. Customs agent.
She is fearing for her life. He is threatening here. I obviously know where you live. I'm in the apartment complex with you. She decides to go along with this demand. She gets into her car and follows Brian Nichols. He disposes of the car about two to five miles away from here, and then he gets into her car. They come back to the apartment. They go back inside her apartment. Another several hours transpire, and at some point, she is able to talk herself, we don't know if he decided to release her or she managed to talk her way out. She leaves the apartment, makes a short trip over to the leasing office and makes the 911 call. Officers respond, SWAT responds.
Let's listen now to the 911 byte, the information from the 911 call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SUSAN BOLDIN, 911 DISPATCHER: We had a female call in saying that he was in her apartment.
HARRIS: And what did you guys do?
BOLDIN: I spoke with her myself, and I sent the call up as a possible wanted person located.
HARRIS: And you guys have dispatched units?
BOLDIN: Yes, we dispatched regular units and they have called for a specialized team to go out there and handle it.
(END AUDIO CLIP) HARRIS: Gwinnett County Police Officer Anthony Bassy (ph) was the first on the scene. He talked to the woman, determined that her story was credible, called in. The backup, SWAT team, comes on to the scene. And a short time later, as you know, Carol, Brian Nichols waves the universal surrender sign, a white towel or a t-shirt. He comes out, hands above his head. He surrenders and as you know the rest of the story, he is now in FBI custody.
LIN: Tony, that is a remarkable story of survival.
HARRIS: It really is.
LIN: The hat is off to that woman because that's exactly what they tell any of us who have been through war zone training, if you're ever taken hostage; try to humanize yourself with your captor. And she did, obviously an excellent job that saved her life. Thank you.
HARRIS: And it is -- and it is why she's being called a champ today. Thanks, Carol.
LIN: You bet. All right, thanks very much. Tony Harris live out there in Gwinnett County.
All right, we want to now take you back hours before Nichols was actually captured. Authorities believe he killed a federal agent nearby in Atlanta's Buckhead area. And CNN's Drew Griffin was at the scene all day. He joins me now on details of that investigation.
Drew, do you know whether there was a connection at all between the suspect and this agent?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As far as we know, no. And you know, from 9:30 yesterday morning until his capture this afternoon, anybody in metro Atlanta was a potential target of this man, and this tale of the last person to fall is a very scary example of the randomness of this violence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFFIN (voice-over): This is the final victim on this trail of killing that began shortly after 9:00 yesterday morning. Forty-year- old David Wilhelm's body was carried from a crime scene eight miles north of the Fulton County courthouse. The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent gunned down in a home he was having built and according to Atlanta's chief of police, the killer was Brian Nichols.
PENNINGTON: He went to 926 Canter Road where he shot a Customs agent and took his truck and he took his weapon, his Glock, and he took his identification and I.D. We know that for a fact.
GRIFFIN: It is the how and why the paths of Nichols and Wilhelm collided on this upscale street, which so far can't' be explained. Wilhelm was an exemplary officer with U.S. Customs, an award winner responsible for busting smuggling rings, dope dealers and financial criminals. He served in the Virginia and the Carolinas before being promoted last November to assistant special agent assigned to Atlanta's airport, one of the busiest in the nation. And it was down this street he and his wife were building their Atlanta home.
TINA WILHEMI, DESIGN CONSULTANT: I can't believe it.
GRIFFIN: Tina Wilhemi was helping the couple pick out tile and glass for their new home. She says David Wilhelm did much of the work on his own and they often joked about the similarity of their last names.
WILHEMI: He was excited about moving to Atlanta and moving to this new home. And he was real proud of the tile work.
GRIFFIN: Perhaps Wilhelm just happened to be here working last night when Brian Nichols decided to make a trip down what would have been a dark street, a random turn and a random killing, and according to Kenneth Smith, David Wilhelm's boss and friend, a terrible random loss.
KENNETH SMITH, ICE SPECIAL AGENT: On behalf of the entire ICE family, we first send our thoughts and our prayers to Agent Dave Wilhelm's family and friends. Agent Wilhelm's death is tragic loss for the entire law enforcement community, particularly our office here in Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFFIN: David Wilhelm is survived by his wife and his brother, who is also a Customs enforcement agent here in Atlanta. He told us right now, Carol, the family is just too broken up to talk about it publicly.
LIN: Clearly, understandable the randomness of the crime and it's so unfair.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
LIN: All right, thank you very much, Drew Griffin, for that.
We have much more on this story. In fact, the prosecution is going forward, obviously, in this case, the murder cases, but also, as you might recall, Brian Nichols was on trial for rape. What happens now, as that case -- does it go forward? How does the jury make a decision? I'm going to be talking with our legal expert. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Welcome back. Brian Nichols is expected to face federal and state charges stemming from the courthouse shootings and the death of a federal agent. So let's talk with legal eagles and analysts now with -- exact, with former U.S. Attorney Kendall Coffey in Miami.
Kendall, I want to draw on your experience here, because, you know, we had a news conference about an hour and a half ago, and the authorities were rather vague about how exactly this case is going to go forward. Why is it that they can't come up with more specific charges at this time? They're holding him on a fire arms charge right now.
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, we don't know where this is going, Carol. He's going to be charged with homicides. There are certainly a number of state and federal charges that could put him on death row. Meanwhile, they simply want to meet, work through what the procedure is going to be, which prosecution, state or federal, is going to go first. And you may recall when D.C. sniper John Mohammed was originally arrested it was on a federal fire arms charge. They held him under that status until they were able to sort out how and who would do the prosecution. And of course, as we know, John Mohammed has now been sentenced to death in his own death row in Virginia.
LIN: It seems like a cut and dried case, though. I mean this guy is in a courtroom full of witnesses. He opens fire. Three people are shot right then and there, and then the killing spree continues. So what are the potential question marks in your mind?
COFFEY: Well, I think the defense in a case like this is always going to think they have to, and properly so, they have to do everything they possibly can. For example, the big issue is going to be venue. Wherever case is charged, state or federal, there's go to be an attempt by the defense to get it moved out of the Atlanta area where right now I'm sure the entire community is traumatized by the event. Beyond that, the only other real issue is what can be done if anything to keep him from being sentenced to death because he's assuredly going to be convicted on multiple capital charges.
LIN: Well, I interviewed his defense attorney in the rape trial, and he said the only way he can see out for Brian Nichols is that he declares some form of insanity.
COFFEY: Well, and he's going to try to do that, but as we know, insanity is a defense to beat a guilty rap, almost never works. It's very narrow in legal terms. It just means not really being able to know what you were doing right or wrong. His mental state, if anything at all, is going to become a factor in the capital phase. After conviction, we then go to a separate procedure to determine life or death. And then in that part of the case, juries can consider some of the issues of mental impairment, temporary or not.
LIN: Kendall, never mind that, what about the rape trial? We actually heard that the rape trial is going to go forward this coming week. But specifically, the wording was that they were going to resolve the rape trial this week. What does that mean? Does that mean that that whole case could fall apart too?
COFFEY: Well, if you're the defense lawyer, Carol, you walk in Monday morning and say I'm moving for a mistrial. Ironically, you're moving for a mistrial because your client committed horrible murders and has created so much publicity against him, airwaves absolutely bombarded with news about this atrocities that no jury in America, certainly no jury in Atlanta, could give him a fair trial right now on those rape issues. LIN: Well, I think that's fair to say, don't you, Kendall?
COFFEY: I do.
LIN: I think the jury is pretty traumatized itself. Thank you very much for your legal expertise today.
COFFEY: Thank you, Carol.
LIN: All right. Brian Nichols is a person with a history and a family. And his family, frankly, is in shock over the crimes that he's accused of committing over the past 30 plus hours. CNN's Kathleen Koch has been talking to some of Nichols' relatives in Baltimore, Maryland.
Kathleen, what do they have to say about this man?
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, friends and family here are really in a total state of disbelief. They say that this man charged with these brutal murders in Atlanta is simply nothing like the Brian Nichols they once knew.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH (voice-over): In this working class neighborhood in northeast Baltimore, Brian Nichols was someone to look up to. He played supports and graduated from a local Catholic school, Cardinal Gibbons High School. He played football at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) University in Pennsylvania.
CURTIS POPE, NEIGHBOR: He was an athlete, basketball, football, martial arts, but never someone who would use martial arts on a negative note. So it was always positive.
KOCH: Maxine Glober who didn't want to appear on camera lived next door to Nichols.
MAXINE GLOBER, NEIGHBOR: A normal, young child playing with the other kids on the block, very well mannered, had no problem with him at all.
KOCH: Nichols's brother, Mark, who now lives in Plantation, Florida, tells CNN he's very upset in a statement saying -- quote -- "Everyone knows me as the brother of the person who killed those people."
Nichols' uncle offered condolences to the families of those killed in Atlanta.
REGGIE SMALLS, UNCLE: And our hearts go out to them. And Brian is a nice young man as far as we knew. I don't know what happened.
KOCH: That's the question now for friends like Charles Franklin who grew up with Nichols and is now a pastor at a local church.
CHARLES FRANKLIN JR., CLASSMATE: Now, I just hope that they're able to do some kind of psychiatric assessment of him just to see at what point that his life changed so drastically, at what point did he break.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH: And there is no reaction yet tonight from Nichols' parents. They are living in Africa where his mother worked. They're due though to be back in the area perhaps as soon as next week -- Carol.
LIN: Kathleen, any of these friends and family up in Baltimore, are they planning on flying down here and seeing Brian Nichols, talking to him themselves?
KOCH: At this point, no, we haven't' spoken to anyone who has made those plans, but again, these people are all stunned right now, again, in total shock about the charges now that he is facing, what he allegedly did. So perhaps when we speak with them later on today -- we're going to be contacting them again and also tomorrow -- perhaps they'll be making those plans. But we haven't heard of any such plans at this point.
LIN: Got you. All right, tanks very much. Kathleen Koch reporting live from Baltimore.
We have much more on the story. In fact, I interviewed Brian Nichols' defense attorney who was defending him against these rape charges in that very courtroom where he opened fire. You'll hear what he had to say about a premonition that something like this might happen.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTERS: He literally waved a white flag or a t-shirt and came out, and surrendered to our folks. The excellent thing is we had sufficient force there. There was no alternative to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: That was Police Chief Charles Walters of Gwinnett County, Georgia, describing today's arrest of courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols. Now, his capture and at the most massive manhunt in Georgia history, and here to talk about that and the events that preceded Nichols' escape is former FBI agent Don Clark.
Don, when you take a look at the events, sure, an ending that we all had hoped for, that this man is now in custody, but there was so much confusion in the very beginning even an admission by Atlanta police that they did not finish searching the garage where eventually the car that had been broadcasted all over the airwaves, the getaway car, had been found, had been parked right under their very noses.
DON CLARK, FORMER FBI AGENT: Yes, Carol, absolutely. You know I have to tell you, Carol, that in these situations, and I've been in many, and I don't have any information as to what exactly took place there, but I know from my experience that it is chaotic in the beginning. And this one was really chaotic in taking place. And there are a number of people -- and I make no excuses for the law enforcement, but there are a number of people who are trying to get information to the right parties and trying to get information out so that they can apprehend this person, and they have no idea what the suspect is doing but yet they're trying to follow through. And yes, this may turn out to be egregious error, but nonetheless, I think because of the chaos that was taking place, that when you're in the midst of battle, you can sometimes see it happening.
LIN: Would have, should have, could have. We are sewing folks here, the viewers, exclusive videotape that CNN had from our very own security cameras of Brian Nichols in that very garage as he is either entering or leaving it but clearly on the premises, just a couple of blocks away from us. You know who really, I think, is the hero in this case is that woman, the last hostage that he took, the woman who had the presence of mind, tied up in her bathroom to somehow make a human connection with him that may have saved his life and bought enough time for her to get to call 911.
CLARK: Well, you're absolutely right, Carol. And in often times, the citizens are the ones who really step up to the plate, and maybe whatever their training or background may be, are just their natural instincts. And from everything I've heard about this lady is that here's a lady who just decided to use her own personal instincts and bring some personal connection between her and Brian. It's a person that she had never seen before. The profilers will have a good time with this, trying to figure out how to use these types of techniques in the future.
LIN: Because even after she made that connection, he untied her but he told her, get in your car and follow me as I try to dump this car that I had stolen from somebody else. She actually followed him. Would you recommend that that was a method to build his trust because then they returned back to her apartment building after that? And it was only after that point somewhere that he let her go because frankly, I would have just gotten on the highway and gone for the telephone.
CLARK: You know -- you know what, Carol? I think most people would have probably done that same thing, and perhaps myself, too. I think the idea of following, you know, you can't argue with success now, but I have to tell you, I think too that I might -- would have tried to take a detour and go to some other location to make that phone call.
LIN: Yes. All right, well how -- where do they go from here? What are the tricks in this case that you see, the bumps in the road ahead because it seems pretty clear cut right now, but it's not?
CLARK: No, they're never clear cut. And what you've got now is you've got venue to be concerned about, you got jurisdiction to be concerned about. You've got federal, and state, and local that's involved in this. And I think what they're going to try to do -- and I've heard of a charge that's there, some type of gun charge, and that's to make sure that he is kept tight until they can, no. 1, put together a solid case because no matter how it appears to us as the outsiders, Carol, cases have to be made from bottom to top to get through there court system. And then they have to determine which venue -- which court should have their strongest case...
LIN: Do you have an opinion?
CLARK: ...to try and make first.
LIN: Do you have an opinion? He's in federal custody right now. Who's got the better chance of getting the death penalty in this case, state or federal?
CLARK: Well, I actually think that the state has a better chance of getting the death penalty even though Timothy McVeigh was a death penalty candidate; I actually think the state would have the best chance. But I think what they'll do first is try to go with their strongest case first and make sure that they get one locked in, one secured and then they can work their way through the other circumstances.
LIN: All right, Don Clark, thank you very much.
CLARK: Thank you, Carol.
LIN: Well, Brian Nichols was in the Fulton County courthouse being retried on rape charges on Friday when police say the shooting spree began. Earlier, I spoke with Nichols' defense attorney in that case, Barry Hazen, to find out what he could tell us about the suspect's demeanor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARRY HAZEN, ATTORNEY FOR BRIAN NICHOLS: He was festive is what I e-mailed his mother. I indicated that I thought his attitude was almost festive.
LIN: Which was inappropriate given the circumstances. Was the trial necessarily going his way? I hear it was not.
HAZEN: No, I didn't think the trial was going his way at all. The second trial was a lot stronger in terms of the evidence presented then was the first. I did not think that he was going to have the favorable result in the second trial that he had in the first.
LIN: And what was going through his mind then?
HAZEN: It's hard to say. You know some people just accept their fate. Perhaps he was thinking I'm not going to be here for the verdict. I don't know. I can't read his mind, but that was the last time I spoke with him, and I made particular note that his attitude was jovial, nothing that gave me an indication that he was going to respond violently. If anything, it gave me the indication that maybe he just didn't care anymore. He was accepting his fate and his was going to make as much of a joke out of it as he thought.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Now, you want to stick around for the rest of my interview with Barry Hazen tonight at 8:00 Eastern because he talks about a prophetic meeting they had in the judge's chambers just a day before the shooting broke out. Much more ahead on this subject as well and our top story, so stay right there.
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LIN: Eight people are dead and more than -- and more are wounded after a shooting at a suburban Milwaukee, Wisconsin hotel. Police in Brookfield say a gunman opened fire on a church meeting and then turned his gun on himself. Four victims died at the scene. Seven were rushed to Milwaukee area hospitals where three later died. There is no word yet on what the shooter's motive may have been but we are following this story very closely.
And right here in CNN's own back yard, our top story of the day of a shooting spree in Atlanta. Let's take a moment though to remember the victims. Fulton County Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes was the presiding judge over the suspect Brian Nichols' rape trial. He was fatally shot in his courtroom. Barnes was a well- respected judge who presided over some high profile cases right here in Atlanta. Also shot was court reporter Julie Ann Brandau. She was known for baking cookies and sweets for her colleagues and jurors. She is survived be her 18-year-old daughter. And then there was veteran sheriff's deputy, Sergeant Hoyt Teasley, who was shot dead outside the Atlanta courthouse. He was a married father of two. Authorities say all of this happened after Brian Nichols overpowered Deputy Cynthia Hall and took her gun as he was being led from a detention area into the courtroom. She suffered serious head injuries and she is in critical condition, but is expected to survive.
Perhaps the luckiest victim was "Atlanta Journal Constitution" reporter Don O'Briant. O'Briant says Nichols put a gun to his head, demanded his car keys and told him to climb into the truck. Well, he refused and was pistol ripped for refusing.
Today, another person was found shot dead. His name is David Wilhelm, a U.S. Immigration and Customs enforcement agent, and he was found this morning in Atlanta. His truck was found near the apartment complex where Nichols was finally captured.
Now, as we mentioned, the judge who was killed was extremely well respected and liked both on and off the bench. Judge Henry Newkirk knew Judge Barnes professionally and personally and he's been a friend of the Barneses family for the last 20 years.
The last 24 hours obviously had to be both frightening and heart- wrenching.
JUDGE HENRY NEWKIRK, FULTON COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: Carol, it's been devastated for the entire community with the law enforcement ancients going 24/7 to find the suspect. There's been an awful lot of tension in the city. There is a great sigh of relief from a lot of sectors in the city... LIN: Right.
NEWKIRK: ...that now that he finally is apprehended.
LIN: And a lot of would have, should have, could have, Judge. You know what the security situation should have been given that very special circumstance and yet, we are hearing Monday morning, it's going to be business as usual. What needs to be done in that courtroom?
NEWKIRK: Well, it's not going to be business as usual. Things are going to change. People are going to reassess the way we've -- had been doing business. We're going to make sure procedures are followed more closely.
LIN: What was -- what broke down?
NEWKIRK: I think the proper procedures were in place. I think that the procedures were violated. There's no question that...
LIN: Which procedure was violated?
NEWKIRK: Well, I don't think -- believe that in a controlled cell area where the initial incident took place the officer should have had a gun with an unshackled defendant.
LIN: Well, you had a situation too where you had a rape defendant, 6-foot-2, 220 pounds, being guarded by a sheriff's deputy, a female sheriff's deputy, 54 years old. Was that an appropriate decision to be made?
NEWKIRK: I don't believe so. And I know Deputy Hall. I like her. She's worked in my court. She's a fine person. Sometimes we have lapses in our judgment. And this is the first time something like this has happened in Fulton County in my memory, and I have been down there for 23 years. And sometimes day after day of handling the inmates, it's...
LIN: Becomes routine.
NEWKIRK: ... it sometimes becomes routine and we get careless. Deputy Hall is a good deputy but I think that she just had a lapse.
LIN: There was a question about a juror in the case may have actually seen the defendant handcuffed at one point. There is a precaution to protect a defendant's right that the jurors not see them shackled. It may influence their decision. There was a discussion with Judge Barnes in the courtroom about that. Did that influence somebody to make the decision to unshackle him earlier than should have been?
NEWKIRK: I'm not privy to that discussion. However, I do know that the sheriff's department is in charge of security. And if it becomes a matter of security versus having jurors see them, the sheriff has to make sure that the public is safe and the defendant is secure while being transported. LIN: In the seconds we have left, Judge Barnes, what would he want -- how would he want the court reporters, the bailiffs, the other judges, the sheriff's deputies -- come Monday morning, how would he want them to handle the day?
NEWKIRK: He would want them to reevaluate their procedures and make sure that this incident never happens again. Fulton County will be changed. There will be changes in all the judge's procedures and the sheriff's procedures and everybody will be more cautious. And I hope that we remain that way for the next 50 years because after another 20 years, we may fall back into certain lapses and get lazy, and that's how things like this happen.
LIN: You can't afford the complacency.
NEWKIRK: That's right.
LIN: Well, it is a great loss, both the judge, the court reporter, and the deputy. Thank you.
NEWKIRK: All right, thank you, Carol.
LIN: Well, we have much more to cover on this story, so please stay with us for our special coverage of the capture of Brian Nichols.
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LIN: Well, that's all the time we have for this hour, but coming up next, "THE CAPTIAL GANG," and then at 8:00 Eastern, I'll be back with a live, special broadcast of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. We are going to have complete coverage of today's capture of Brian Nichols. And please, be sure to stay tuned for a special "LARRY KING LIVE" at 9:00 Eastern, tonight's focus will, of course, be today's dramatic events in and around Atlanta. Right after a break, a check of the day's headlines.
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