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CNN Live Saturday
Twenty Six Hours of Death, Terror and Fear Come to an End
Aired March 13, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE WALTERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: This ended the best way it could end and there were no citizens hurt, none of my police officers were hurt on the surrender.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Twenty six hours of death, terror and fear come to an end. A massive manhunt reels in the prime suspect in four fatal shootings, including a judge in his own courtroom.
Also, a look at some of the missed cues that may have helped police corner Brian Nichols soon.
Later, insights from the defense attorney in Nichols' rape case and the warnings from Nichols' own friends that he could be big trouble.
It is March 13th (sic) and you're watching a special edition of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. From CNN's global headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin. Twenty six hours of terror and the largest manhunt in Georgia history are over. Brian Nichols, the man accused of yesterday's deadly Atlanta courthouse shooting is in federal custody tonight. He surrendered this morning at an apartment in suburban Atlanta where police say he held a woman hostage before she was able to get away and call 911.
That happened just hours after the body of a federal agent was discovered about 15 miles away, bringing to four the number of people Nichol's is suspected of killing.
CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman begins our coverage tonight from Atlanta City Hall. Gary, it is a fast moving story. Take us through it. What exactly happened? How did the capture go down?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, when it all mercifully came to an end, Brian Nichols did not try to shoot the police, he did not try to shoot himself, he waved a white cloth and he surrendered. He was apprehended after a day of brutality and terror.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All we're releasing right now is we do have a hostage situation. SWAT is employed. We've basically locked down the area, as you can tell. We're not letting anyone inside the apartment complex. If anyone inside the apartment complex is watching this right now they are safe, just lock all your doors, stay inside.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The end of a 26 hour manhunt. SWAT teams close in on courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols, hiding out in an apartment in an Atlanta suburb. Police say he gave up peacefully before he was cuffed and patted down, mobbed by SWAT team officers and then whisked away in a Chevy Suburban to a local FBI field office.
WALTERS: At approximately 9:50 our units responded to a call that a female stating that she was in the apartment with Brian Nichols.
TUCHMAN: Police say the caller who tipped them off was a stranger who didn't know Nichols before he made his way into her apartment. She was forced inside with him but somehow called 911.
WALTERS: She was able to get out of the apartment and called us and our SWAT team responded, they deployed and our uniformed folks were able to control the scene, kept him contained. Shortly after the arrival of our SWAT team, Mr. Nichols surrendered to us without incident.
TUCHMAN: Just hours before, a federal immigration and customs agent was killed, his truck stolen. Police officials say the assistant special agent in charge's badge and his gun were also found inside the apartment. Police feared the worst when they knew they had Nichols cornered.
WALTERS: We had approximately 30 officers on the scene, 30 SWAT officers on the scene. Shortly after their arrival, Mr. Nichols surrendered, literally waving a white flag. So it ended as well as a situation like this can possibly end.
TUCHMAN: Authorities say Nichols ended up leaving the original murder scene not in a getaway car but aboard an Atlanta MARTA train instead. He will make his first appearance in court sometime next week.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALTERS: The hero appears to be the woman who was held captive in her own home, somehow escaped, authorities aren't telling us how yet, and dialed 911. We asked them at a news conference here at the Atlanta City Hall, will she get the $60,000 reward and they are telling us that is still to be determined.
Now, Nichols has not been officially charged with the murders yet, that could take up to 30 days but they have made it very clear he will be charged with four counts of murder, likely three state counts and possibly one federal count for the killing of the customs officer. But this state will get the first chance to prosecute him, this case, and the State of Georgia has the death penalty. Carol?
LIN: All right, Gary, this case is going to be in court for a long, long time. Thank you very much. Gary Tuchman reporting live.
Well, for more than a day Atlanta was a city under siege. That fact hit home for residents in a Gwinnett County apartment complex. One by one, police cars sped to their doorsteps to find Brian Nichols. Kay Flowers of CNN affiliate WXIA has more on this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAY FLOWERS, WXIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just before 10 a.m. the lockdown began. Dozens of Gwinnett County police and other agencies swarmed the Bridgewater apartment complex on Satellite Boulevard, allowing no one in and checking at gunpoint anyone trying to leave. Some residents checked more closely than others.
OFFICER DARREN MOLONEY, GWINNETT COUNTY P.D.: They are safe, just lock all your doors, stay inside, do not be wandering around.
FLOWERS: SWAT members move in to surround the apartment where a woman says fugitive Brian Nichols held her hostage until she escaped to call police. And the woman's neighbors watch in terror.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had - It was like an army, task forces out here, it was ridiculous. You would have never thought they would have that many weapons for one man.
FLOWERS: When Nichols finally turned himself in without incident and was taken into FBI custody, driven out in an SUV, onlookers cheered with relief, especially Ernie Cash, whose brother called terrified from inside the apartment complex.
ERNIE CASH, WITNESS: It was just a very, very tragic time for us in Atlanta here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Well, that was Kay Flowers reporting from CNN affiliate WXIA, a dramatic story here in Atlanta. And there were so many people who actually came into contact with Nichols while he was on the run, each one of them has an amazing story to tell but perhaps the most incredible is that of a woman he held hostage for more than seven hours before she was able to call police. CNN's Tony Harris has her story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TONY HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Gwinnett County 911 dispatcher took the critical call that led to the capture of fugitive Brian Nichols.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had a female call in saying that he was in her apartment. I spoke with her myself and I sent the call up as a possible wanted person located.
HARRIS: The caller said Nichols was holed up in her apartment. Police say her ordeal began around 2 a.m., when Nichols pointed a gun at her as she was returning home to this apartment complex just north of Atlanta. She told police her terrifying ordeal began when Nichols forced her inside her apartment, tying her up while he considered his next move. She told police Nichols forced her to follow him while he dumped a stolen pickup truck that police say belonged to an immigration and customs official who was found dead early Saturday morning.
She told police the two returned in her car and for the next several hours she talked to him until he eventually let her go. That's when she called 911 and police and SWAT teams moved in. Neighbors in this quiet complex were shocked as word spread that the killer was among them.
Christina Scheel says she got a call from her husband warning her that Nichols was in the complex.
CHRISTINA SCHEEL, RESIDENT: I was pretty scared about it, actually. I called my mom and told her because I was pretty nervous and she said "Go in the bathroom, stay away from the windows" but basically the next thing I heard he was already caught so they did a really good job.
HARRIS: Nichols, the man believed to have shot and killed a judge and two others on Friday morning, surrendered without a struggle, waving a white cloth as he came out of the building.
JAMES MCCLURE, GWINNETT COUNTY SWAT: Obviously it's an emotional time for everybody but I think you rely on your training and you just revert back to what you've been trained to do, which is to be professional and do a job. That's the bottom line. And once we took him into custody, we're extremely happy.
HARRIS: Gwinnett County Police Chief Charles Walters says the victim was incredibly calm and provided useful information.
WALTERS: I do know that she was able to provide information, she was not panicked, she handled it very responsibly and very frankly, it was not a remarkable call. There was not a lot of panic or anything else. But she handled it - she was a champ.
HARRIS: Tony Harris, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Can you imagine staying that cool under that kind of pressure. And imagine the surprise of her neighbors in the Bridgewater apartments in suburban Gwinnett County when they learned that Nichols was holed up right inside their building.
CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is standing there right now. She joins me live with part of that story. Elizabeth, you can imagine that many of these people were probably sitting in front of their TV sets all day yesterday watching as this manhunt unfolded.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It was actually difficult for some of them to leave the complex, Carol. They were told when they tried to leave that they couldn't leave or their cars were searched and this story was still going on here at the Bridgewater apartment complex about 20 miles north of Downtown Atlanta. Federal law enforcement officials are still - They're behind me right now - taking evidence from this woman's apartment and loading into trucks. This is still happening. And, of course, it's been happening since this morning when Brian Nichols surrendered to police.
Now, for people who live there, the question that they're asking is why did he come here? It's about a mile off the interstate, off I- 85, but there are hundreds of apartment complex like this. This is a huge one, there are parks, there are playgrounds. It certainly doesn't look like the kind of place that a fugitive would necessarily want to go. Now, all of this took place today at building 34 and joining my here tonight are Adam and Amy Koppin, they lived - live still, in building 33. Tell me what happened this morning.
ADAM KOPPIN, RESIDENT: We were kind of oblivious to everything going on. We got in a car to leave. We pulled out. We started heading down the road and I saw a cop and I just thought it was a normal cop standing around the parking lot so I started pulling forward and I saw he had his gun drawn so I immediately stopped and he waved us to go on because we didn't want to get in the line of fire or anything so we kept going and we turned to go out the back way and the cops already had that blocked off so we went to the left and started pulling forward and there was already seven or eight cop cars already there. And they were getting on their gear and getting their guns out and they were interviewing a woman.
And we decided to go to the leasing office to figure out what was going on. We turn into the leasing office, we knocked on the door, they came and it was already locked up. They didn't want anybody going in there, so they let us in and they had told us that they thought Brian Nichols was in the complex.
COHEN: So, Amy, you looked out your window and you saw a policeman with his gun drawn pointing at you.
AMY KOPPIN, RESIDENT: Yeah. Well he was pointed at - he was looking around and just had his gun drawn but we looked at him and he said "Go, go," and we said "OK, we're going." So ...
COHEN: And when you tried to leave the complex, what happened?
ADAM KOPPIN: There was a line of cars. There was about probably three or four more cop cars, several others who just kept piling in. Several cops with rifles asking us to roll down our windows and just asking us if anybody had asked us for a ride and made us pop the trunk to see if there was anybody in the trunk.
COHEN: You must feel shock and then relief, is what you were telling us before. Well, thank you very much. And again, we're in Duluth, Georgia, about 20 miles north of Downtown Atlanta. Carol?
LIN: Thanks very much, Elizabeth.
Well the day of the courthouse shootings, Brian Nichols was on his way to court to face rape and false imprisonment charges and I spoke with his defense attorney, Barry Hazen, representing Nichols in the rape case, about security concerns before the shootings, in fact, right before the shootings, concerns that were voiced as early as Thursday when Nichols brought homemade weapons into court. But there may have been even earlier signs of trouble. Last August, after the rape allegations, Nichols' own friends told police they thought he was dangerous and turned him in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: You actually had an indication from his own friends back in December that they were afraid that he was going to turn violent. Explain some of those concerns and what you were thinking as you were working with Brian Nichols.
BARRY HAZEN, NICHOLS' ATTORNEY: Well, this is not something that I had expressed previously, but I understand it's now out in the press. I'm not sure the source of the information, that he had a number of friends, basketball friends mostly, and they began to be concerned about his behavior after they knew that he was being searched - they were looking for him because of the rape charge and they actually notified the police of his whereabouts because they were concerned that he was going to get hurt if he resisted.
They thought he would resist.
LIN: And this was back in ...
HAZEN: This was on August 23rd, only a few days after the allegation of rape. And so that was in the back of my mind, also.
LIN: That there was a warning from the people who knew him best.
HAZEN: The people who knew him best thought there was a warning but I responded to him on the basis of what I saw firsthand and he had always been a perfect gentleman to me. He was very respectful to me. He and I could disagree about what ought to happen in the course of the trial, how to present things, what to present, whether or not he should testify but whenever he disagreed it was always in the most respectful, intellectual way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Interesting. All right. In the meantime, Barry Hazen said there was a premonition by the judge who was killed yesterday about violence in the courtroom. Barry is going to be talking about that in about 20 minutes. So stay with me for more of my interview with Barry Hazen.
In the meantime, hindsight, of course, is 20-20 they say and lawmen are no doubt evaluating possible missed opportunities in tracking their quarry. How Brian Nichols managed to elude the largest manhunt in Georgia history. Could police have caught him sooner? Well, we're going to show exclusive security camera pictures that CNN has. That right after a break.
Also, more on the victims. Who were they and how the lone survivor of the shooting rampage is actually faring right now.
And later, LARRY KING LIVE, inside the manhunt and the capture, that is at 9 Eastern.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: On the run for more than 26 hours, he alluded police on foot, with a series of carjackings and possibly by subway. Police captured 33-year-old Brian Nichols around 11 a.m. Eastern Time today. A 911 call from a woman whom Nichols allegedly held for several hours at a suburban Atlanta apartment, helped police make the arrest. The crime spree started Friday morning at a Downtown Atlanta courthouse where police say Nichols killed a judge, a deputy and a court reporter. Authorities also suspect him in the shooting death of a federal agent during a carjacking.
Well, the manhunt for Brian Nichols was said to be the largest in Georgia history. Local state and federal law enforcement officials were on the case, but could Nichols have been caught sooner?
Well, joining me for that part of the story, CNN's Randi Kaye, and Randi, obviously major implications because a federal agent and a deputy died after Nichols actually physically left the courthouse.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Carol. And now it seems that there may have been some poor communication between all of the agencies involved. We certainly know that there were some missed opportunities in getting on Brian Nichols trail faster. Following the shooting at the courthouse on Friday, Nichols came to a parking garage that's behind me there in the distance. It's there that we understand he carjacked a man, took his 1997 Honda Accord. Police believed that he actually left that garage in that car until a private citizen found that car parked there and directed investigators to it.
It wasn't until today that police realized Nichols had actually left that garage on foot and took Atlanta's public transportation system, known as MARTA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA P.D.: All of the information that we had received from witnesses and sources indicated that the vehicle had left the scene and so we did not search the entire parking garage. Remember, we still thought he was in the car so we had no reason to close down MARTA because we thought he was still in the Honda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Now it turns out that that Honda was parked just one floor below where it had been carjacked, so investigators, if they had just walked around the entire parking garage, they may have seen it. We talked with a former FBI agent today about that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: What should have been done? They came here to investigate a carjacking and then put out an alert on a car that was parked right here. What were the proper steps that should have been taken? HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, in retrospect, what you say is this place should have been shut down, and it would have been shut down two to three, four hours, whatever it would take to make sure there was nothing else in this deck that we know.
KAYE: Right. And if you just go over to right here - One level down.
COPUS: One level down.
KAYE: So close that if they had just walked a little bit farther they could have seen it.
COPUS: I know. Isn't that scary?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: Now we want to show you some exclusive video. This is exclusive video obtained by CNN of Brian Nichols in that garage. He is caught on camera driving the Honda in question then walking down a flight of stairs after parking that Honda and leaving it behind. Investigators did not ask for this tape until 14 hours after the manhunt began, until that car was actually discovered parked there.
Now, in talking with that former FBI agent today, he told me that what will follow this manhunt is something called after action meetings, where all the departments will come together and they will determine what went wrong, and, of course, how to fix that in the future. Carol?
LIN: Let's hope so. Thanks very much, Randi Kaye.
Obviously when he cover these crime stories we really mustn't forget the victims of the Atlanta courthouse shooting. So, coming up, the latest on the lone survivor of the shootings. I'm going to talk with one of the doctors who was treating her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: We have spent a lot of airtime focusing on murder suspect Brian Nichols. But we remind ourselves now of the people he is accused of killing. Four families and countless friends are grieving tonight. Their loved ones, police say, all victims of Nichols' rampage. The latest, and this is a photo that David Wilhelm's wife asked that we at CNN share with you. This is her husband. He is the immigration and customs enforcement agent whose body was found this morning in a home he was having built.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK TAYLOR, WILHELM'S FRIEND: When they told me what had happened and what he was doing at the time, he was laying tile and doing his second business on the side. That's what he loved to do is build houses on the side. He was just such a good guy and he would give you the shirt off your back. It didn't matter, it didn't matter. It's such a senseless killing, why did it have to happen to him? It shouldn't have happened to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Three others will killed Friday in the line of duty, gunned down at the Fulton County courthouse. Judge Roland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brandau and Deputy Hoyt Teasley.
Fulton Count Sheriff's Deputy Cynthia Ann Hall remains in Atlanta Hospital and police say Hall was overpowered by Brian Nichols at the courthouse on Friday. They say that he took her gun and injured her in the struggle. Dr. Jeffrey Solomon worked on some of the victims of the courthouse shooting and he joins me now to share his experience. He is one of the doctors who is treating Deputy Hall.
Dr. Salomone, there is some confusion about her injury. You're still not certain whether she was actually shot.
DR. JEFFREY SALOMONE, SURGEON: That's correct. The initial report was that she had been shot and when she presented to the emergency room at Grady she had a laceration, a wound, on her forehead above both of her eyes and we thought at the time it seemed like kind of an unusual injury for a gunshot wound, if it was a gunshot wound it would be simply a graze wound and that it was very lucky that it didn't enter her skull.
In retrospect, at the time we did the press conference, I was still operating with the impression she had been shot but after that came to realize that it was her weapon that had been taken, so she could well have been assaulted, pistol whipped, struck with the gun or even punched and knocked to the ground and suffered her injuries as her head impacted on the concrete floor.
LIN: Obviously she's at the center of some of the controversy over court security, what had been described to be as a middle-aged, petite female deputy escorting a rape suspect, 6'2, 220 lbs to court. But she is not a petite woman and she doesn't seem to be by your description a shrinking violet by any means.
SALOMONE: No, she doesn't appear that way and having worked with a number of female Atlanta police officers over the year, I think appearances can be very deceptive.
LIN: Do you think - Has she been able to talk about what happened?
SALOMONE: No she has not. When she arrived in the emergency room, she was combative at that point in time and it was difficult for us to do our assessment to determine whether or not she had any life- threatening injuries. So in a situation like that, with the understanding that she had been shot in the head we had to get a CT scan of her brain and so she required sedation and then being put on a mechanical ventilator at that point in time.
The CT scan showed that she's got a small bruise on the frontal lobe of her brain, the front part of her brain. She also has fractures around her right eye socket that will probably need surgery at some point in time.
LIN: Fair to say, Dr. Salomone, this woman is very lucky to be alive.
SALOMONE: She's very lucky. Her family knows that she's blessed and we agree with them.
LIN: All right. Dr. Salomone, and the wisdom of Solomon be with that family. Thank you very much for joining us and updating us.
SALOMONE: Thank you.
LIN: On how the deputy is doing.
Well, in the meantime, a check of some of the other stories making news, including a deadly church service shooting. Also we are going to hear from the family of accused courthouse shooter Brian Nichols and later ...
HAZEN (video clip): With a manhunt this large it was going to end soon and I'm just glad it ended without any further bloodshed and no other families are going to be affected by this.
LIN: Much more of my interview with Brian Nichols' defense attorney. Did he see the attack coming?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Welcome back. Our special coverage of the capture of Brian Nichols resumes momentarily but first a quick look at the day's other headlines.
And right now in the news a church service at a hotel near Milwaukee, Wisconsin ended in violence when police say a gunman opened fire, killing seven people and then himself. Several people are hospitalized, some in serious condition. Police say the shooter was affiliated with the church but there is no word yet on a possible motive.
Funeral services were held near Denver, Colorado today for Donna Humphrey, the mother of federal Judge Joan Humphrey Lefkow. Police say a man bent on revenge for one of Lefkow's rulings admitted he killed her mother and her husband nearly two weeks ago at the judge's home in Chicago. The murder suspect, Bart Ross, committed suicide during a traffic stop this week.
And who is Brian Nichols and why would he do the things is accused of? Well, CNN's Kathleen Koch is in Baltimore, Maryland, trying to find some answers to that question. She joins us now live with some of his family's reactions. This, Kathleen, a man they said never in their wildest imaginations they would think would go on a killing spree.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Precisely, Carol and they are really, friends and family, in a state of disbelief here. They say that the man charged with these brutal murders in Atlanta is simply nothing like the Brian Nichols they once knew.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH (voice-over): In this working class neighborhood in Northeast Baltimore, Brian Nichols was someone to look up to. He played sports and graduated from a local Catholic school, Cardinal Gibbons High School. He played football at Kutztown University in Pennsylvania.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was an athlete, basketball, football, martial arts but never was someone who used martial arts on a negative note, so it was always positive.
KOCH: Maxine Glover, who didn't want to appear on camera, lived next door to Nichols.
MAXINE GLOVER, NEIGHBOR: A normal young child playing with the other kids in the block, very well-mannered, had no problem with him at all.
KOCH: Nichols' brother Mark, who now lives in Plantation, Florida, tells CNN he's very upset. In a statement saying, quote, "Everyone knows me as the brother of the person who killed those people."
Nichols' uncle offered condolences to the family of those killed in Atlanta.
REGGIE SMALLS, NICHOLS' UNCLE: Our hearts go out to them and Brian was a nice young man as far as we knew. I don't know what happened.
KOCH: That's the question now for friends like Charles Franklin, who grew up with Nichols and is now a pastor at a local church.
CHARLES FRANKLIN, JR., CLASSMATE: Now I just hope that they are able to do some kind of psychiatric assessment of him just to see at what point did his life change so drastically, at what point did he break?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH (on camera): No reaction yet from Nichols' parents. Friends and family say they are in Africa, where Nichols' mother works, but they are due to be back in the area as soon as next week. Carol?
LIN: Kathleen, thank you very much. You know, I spoke today with the defense attorney who was representing Brian Nichols in the rape case and we ran part of that interview with Barry Hazen for you earlier in the hour but now we want to share some more of his insights and even some of the things that were almost prophetic in the days leading up to the shooting.
And obviously, Hazen says he is glad Nichols is back in custody.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Give me your reaction of the arrest now of Brian Nichols.
HAZEN: Well, I'm relieved. I am relieved because people were injured and there won't be any more injuries. He won't be injured. I knew that the situation had to end and soon. With a manhunt this large it was going to end soon and I'm just glad it ended without any further bloodshed and no other families are going to be affected by this.
LIN: Right. Well, we have to see how the events unfold from here on out. But you actually had almost a premonition of the event. The conversation that you actually had with Judge Barnes just a few days before the shooting. What happened?
HAZEN: It was actually the day before. When Judge Barnes became aware that Brian had these metal objects in his shoes and decided to beef up security, after we made the decision about the security will be beefed up and how it will be beefed up, myself and the two prosecutors in the case spent about another 10 or 11 minutes in his chamber just generally talking about the kinds of risks that officers of the court face in many situations.
And we weren't quite laughing about it but Judge Barnes actually turned to me and said, you know, generally speaking it's the defense attorney who is at the most risk because violent criminal defendants often think that the judge and the prosecutors are just doing their job but if he gets convicted, it's the defense attorney who didn't do his or her job. And that was about the last thing we said when we went from his chambers into the courtroom on the fourth day of trial.
LIN: Do you think that your client actually planned this attack and this escape?
HAZEN: It's very hard to say that. If the facts of the case are as I've been led to believe, was that one deputy guarded him without handcuffs, then it would be very difficult for him to have predicted that he would be in that fortunate situation, although there was an incident the day before where a juror might have seen Mr. Nichols in handcuffs being led into the courtroom after lunch. An inquiry was made of that juror and Judge Barnes spoke to the deputy and expressed some dissatisfaction if the defendant was seen in handcuffs and that might have caused people to err on the side of him not being seen in handcuffs as opposed to err on the side of being just a little bit more secure.
LIN: Barry, this must make you crazy. You work in that courthouse all the time.
HAZEN: Yes.
LIN: You have seen how many lapses in this particular case where this man not only was able to get a gun, go down eight flights of stairs, escape, carjack - shoot his way out of the courtroom, carjack his way through the city of Atlanta. HAZEN: Well, it's hard for me to speak to anything that happened on the street, because I don't know, but in the courtroom, even after it became apparent that he had weapons in his shoes, the only beefed up security was the addition of one female deputy in the courtroom, there was a male deputy and a female all the time. We added just one deputy.
And there was another thing that occurred and that is there was - the deputies guarding him changed, it was not the same deputies day after day, and I rather suspect - and to some extent this is Monday morning quarterbacking now, I think that we might look into consistency.
If you have the same deputies guarding someone throughout the course of the trial, you are much more likely to get people who will understand how this person responds to directions, how this person is likely to react in certain situations. You just know the routine of the person you're dealing with and the emotions and I think there should have been some consistency there and there was none. I mean, you got different deputies every day.
LIN: Now wait a second, you spoke with your client when? It was what, Thursday?
HAZEN: The last time I spoke with Mr. Nichols was when I left court on Thursday at about 5:15 or so.
LIN: And you noticed something different in his demeanor?
HAZEN: Well, he was festive - When I e-mailed his mother, I indicated that I thought his attitude was almost festive.
LIN: Which was inappropriate given the circumstances. Was the trial necessarily going his way? I hear it was not.
HAZEN: No, I didn't think the trial was going his way at all. The second trial was a lot stronger in terms of the evidence presented then was the first. I did not think that he was going to have the favorable result in the second trial that he had in the first.
LIN: So what was going through his mind then?
HAZEN: It's hard to say. Some people just accept their fate, perhaps he was thinking I'm not going to be here for the verdict. I don't know. I can't read his mind but that was the last time I spoke with him and I made particular note that his attitude was jovial. Nothing that gave me an indication that he was going to respond violently. If anything it gave me the indication that maybe he just didn't care anymore. That he was going to make as much a joke out of it as he though.
LIN: What have the lost 24 hours been for you like personally? Did you think - Did you ever fear for your own life? Did you think that he was going to come after you?
HAZEN: Yes and no. I tried to look at it logically and think, well, the world hates him, the only person out there who was likely still to be considered a friend to him was me, but on the other hand he shot Julie, he shot the court reporter, for no apparent reason. This was not anyone who expressed any animus to him at all and so I thought that he's completely irrational. Not that murder is ever a rational act but that his irrationality was beyond what you would normally see and so I didn't know.
I took precautions. I was willing to stay involved in the process in an effort to try to get him to turn himself in. I didn't see anybody hurt and frankly didn't want to see him hurt either. And I know his family didn't want to see him hurt and I was in contact with his mother over there.
But I had to be concerned about my safety and I had to be concerned about the safety of my family and so I evacuated my office as soon as I heard and I didn't sleep at home last night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Again, that was Barry Hazen, the attorney who has been defending Brian Nichols in his rape trial. In the meantime, the Atlanta shootings have left many people on edge, including those who will be returning to the courthouse on Monday, so straight ahead, how court employees are preparing to go back to work.
And a security expert considers changes to make our courtrooms safer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: And welcome back to our special edition of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Tonight the capture of Brian Nichols capping a deadly courthouse shooting in Atlanta and the largest manhunt in Georgia history.
Now, Nichols surrendered peacefully this morning at an apartment in suburban Atlanta where he was holed up with a female hostage who was eventually able to call 911. Brian Nichols is in federal custody tonight. Sources told CNN he would be held at the Atlanta federal penitentiary. Nichols is accused of killing three people yesterday at the Fulton County courthouse and later a federal agent in an apparent random robbery.
Now, among the victims of the courthouse shooting, superior court Judge Roland Barnes. Warm tributes are pouring in from those who knew him and Judge Diane Bessen was not only a colleague of Judge Barnes but also a family friend and she is joining me here tonight at the CNN center and this has got to be a huge sigh of relief for you and your family and Judge Barnes' family.
JUDGE DIANE BESSEN, FULTON COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: Well, it was obviously disturbing to know he was out on the loose the last 30 hours or so but this whole - the last 24, 30 hours has really just - I don't think the enormity of what happened has sunk in yet. I don't think it will 'til maybe Monday morning when I go back to work.
LIN: What is that going to be like for you?
BESSEN: I wish I knew. I think it's going to be - obviously bring back a lot of really hard, difficult memories. I think that - Everyone who works down there, I mean, it's a family, it's like any place everyone works, you know everyone you work with, the deputies, the clerks, in fact ...
LIN: You knew Judge Barnes' wife who I didn't know worked down at the courthouse and was there at the day of the shooting.
BESSEN: Judge - Claudia Barnes, just a good friend, she works for one of the other state court judges, Judge John Mayther (ph). And she was at the courthouse on Friday and from what I understand there were rumors that there had been a shooting on the eighth floor and she knows, obviously, that's where his chambers were, so it was obviously devastating for her.
LIN: Well, look, everybody is talking about what the breakdown in courthouse security might have been. You, as a presiding judge, do you want to carry a gun in a courtroom? Is that what it's going to take to make you feel safe?
BESSEN: I hope it doesn't come to that. I have to say there have been instances where we've had -- one of the - down (ph) south annex at Fulton County for a long time had a large Lucite barrier, a bulletproof barrier around the bench and I sat in that courtroom when I was a magistrate and I have to tell you it was very uncomfortable. We have done court in the past - We do a lot of video court and I think maybe we're going to see a lot more of that, where the inmates are actually at the jail and we handle court via video transmission and ...
LIN: Has it come to that?
BESSEN: We do actually handle warrants that way and I think unfortunately we may see more of that. I think it's obviously very awkward and uncomfortable because you need the interaction. I would hate to see a defendant trial by video where the jurors were sitting in one place with a video and a judge sitting someplace else and a defendant down at the jail. I really think that would be horrible and I hope it won't come to that.
LIN: So what about carrying a weapon, judge? Do you think that would make a difference for you? Will that make you safer?
BESSEN: I don't think that. You know, I've got young children, I say that now, I doubt I'd ever think of doing that. I think in any work situation, you know, we've had shootings at post offices and schools and work environments, I'm not sure there's any place where you can bee safe 100 percent of the time and obviously there are going to be some changes at Fulton County and I'll be curious to see what sorts of changes are made but ...
LIN: If you - knowing the courthouse as you know it, if you could make one change, one change that would be absolutely signature in your mind, to prevent this from ever happening again, what would it be?
BESSEN: Well, I think there are going to have to be some different procedures with the inmates and partly I know that Fulton County Jail has had some problems over the last year or so with staffing and I think - and we always anticipated a lot of problems with the jail but I think now there's going to have to be an overhaul to look at how the inmates are transported once they get to the jail and you have to understand we have almost 30 judges down there and if you're talking about so many defendants per judge, it's an enormous - you're talking about three, 400 inmates that are transported every day to that facility and so there's going to have to be some changes with the transporting and security of the inmates.
LIN: And the number of inmates.
BESSEN: And the number of inmates.
LIN: In one place. Judge Bessen, thank you very much.
BESSEN: Thank you.
LIN: All right, and when you speak with Judge Barnes' wife, please offer our condolences.
BESSEN: I'm hoping to do that tomorrow, actually. Thank you.
LIN: In the meantime, the Atlanta courthouse killings have opened a big can of worms over security. We've just been talking about that with Judge Bessen. Sheriff's officials here in Atlanta say they're procedures will be reviewed but were mistakes made? And if so, what lessons can be learned? So joining me now from Cleveland, Stark County common pleas court Judge Lee Sinclair. He teaches a class on courthouse security.
Judge, you actually teach judges and bailiffs and court reporters, the whole gamut of what to do, what to look for. In this particular case, what do you think went wrong?
JUDGE LEE SINCLAIR, STARK COUNTY: Well, we don't have all of the facts yet, but based upon what we know, if it proves to be that this individual, high profile crimes, problems at the jail, they found shanks in his socks. The judge had asked for some extra security, leading someone through a hallway not in a courtroom without shackles and without handcuffs on, if those things all prove to be true - A single deputy doing the transporting - there were some problems.
LIN: Earlier I talked with one of the judges down at the courthouse and he said one of the biggest problems is complacency, that moving the number of inmates and the nature of crimes just gets to be the business of the day and he said that he was very concerned that there was a level of complacency, that this was just normal, everyday procedures.
SINCLAIR: And that happens and one of the things that we do to avoid that in our courthouse is we move our court security people around so that they don't get too familiar with the inmates that they're transporting and they don't get too comfortable with, I'm just transporting ...
LIN: Well, that's interesting because the defense attorney for Brian Nichols actually said that it would be better if the same deputies were assigned to the courthouse, the same deputies to the same case because they would get to know the body language and the attitude of the inmate and be better capable of responding if there was an emergency.
SINCLAIR: The same deputies the same case, that's not a bad idea, frequently. But over the time period we rotate our deputies every few months so that they don't get too complacent with the fact that they're just transporting people in a courthouse.
LIN: You think judges should be armed in their courtrooms?
SINCLAIR: You know, that's a very personal decision for a judge. I think a judge has an absolute right to do that if the judge believes that it's necessary ...
LIN: Do you arm yourself in the courtroom when you're presiding over a case?
SINCLAIR: That's a security issue for us that's classified but I will say this. I have a reputation of being very cautious.
LIN: For being very cautious.
SINCLAIR: Yes.
LIN: All right. Well, they're feeling pretty cautious down at the Fulton County courthouse these days.
What changes, then, would you recommend down at the Fulton County courthouse given what you know?
SINCLAIR: Well, first of all, any inmate should never be un- handcuffed or unshackled when they're being moved throughout the building. Once they're in the courtroom with adequate security, if you are going to unshackle them, un-cuff them, then you put them in their chair and they stay in the chair. They do not move, they do not stand up under any circumstance.
LIN: But there was an allegation that one of the jurors in the case, a concern by Judge Barnes, was that a juror actually saw the suspect shackled, or at least handcuffed and that it might effect their judgment in this latest rape trial.
SINCLAIR: And that's a problem and what you need to do is do your scheduling so that your jury and your inmate do not see each other until that inmate is in the courtroom, unshackled, in a chair, then you bring the jury into the courtroom.
LIN: All right. Judge Sinclair, thank you very much for ...
SINCLAIR: Thank you. LIN: In the meantime, this just into the CNN center. We have learned that Brian Nichols will be making his first court appearance in federal court on Monday morning, Monday at the earliest, I am getting a correction, there. Monday at the earliest. The specific charges have not been named. He is facing a firearms charge. He will be facing murder counts but there are more charges expected to come.
In the meantime, we've got much more of our special coverage coming up on the Brian Nichols capture and the case and the investigation, so stay right there.
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LIN: Well, the dramatic chase is over and now officials are building there case against Brian Nichols. The rape defendant turned murder suspect was captured at an apartment complex in Gwinnett County, north of Atlanta earlier today after 26 hours on the run. Police say he surrendered after a woman he held hostage in her apartment managed to get out and call 911.
Now, earlier, police believe Nichols killed David Wilhelm, an immigration and customs agent whose body was found in Atlanta's Buckhead neighborhood this morning. Police say Nichols took Wilhelm's badge, gun and truck.
Now, earlier, this exclusive CNN video captured by security cameras shows Nichols inside a downtown parking garage shortly after police believe he carjacked several vehicles. The killing spree began only blocks away from that garage inside the Fulton County Courthouse where police say Nichols overpowered a sheriff's deputy, stole her gun, and then killed the judge presiding over his case and the court reporter and a sheriff's deputy outside who tried to stop him from getting away.
"LARRY KING LIVE" has much more on the Nichols capture. That is coming up after a short break.
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TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 13, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE WALTERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE CHIEF: This ended the best way it could end and there were no citizens hurt, none of my police officers were hurt on the surrender.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Twenty six hours of death, terror and fear come to an end. A massive manhunt reels in the prime suspect in four fatal shootings, including a judge in his own courtroom.
Also, a look at some of the missed cues that may have helped police corner Brian Nichols soon.
Later, insights from the defense attorney in Nichols' rape case and the warnings from Nichols' own friends that he could be big trouble.
It is March 13th (sic) and you're watching a special edition of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. From CNN's global headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin. Twenty six hours of terror and the largest manhunt in Georgia history are over. Brian Nichols, the man accused of yesterday's deadly Atlanta courthouse shooting is in federal custody tonight. He surrendered this morning at an apartment in suburban Atlanta where police say he held a woman hostage before she was able to get away and call 911.
That happened just hours after the body of a federal agent was discovered about 15 miles away, bringing to four the number of people Nichol's is suspected of killing.
CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman begins our coverage tonight from Atlanta City Hall. Gary, it is a fast moving story. Take us through it. What exactly happened? How did the capture go down?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, when it all mercifully came to an end, Brian Nichols did not try to shoot the police, he did not try to shoot himself, he waved a white cloth and he surrendered. He was apprehended after a day of brutality and terror.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All we're releasing right now is we do have a hostage situation. SWAT is employed. We've basically locked down the area, as you can tell. We're not letting anyone inside the apartment complex. If anyone inside the apartment complex is watching this right now they are safe, just lock all your doors, stay inside.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The end of a 26 hour manhunt. SWAT teams close in on courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols, hiding out in an apartment in an Atlanta suburb. Police say he gave up peacefully before he was cuffed and patted down, mobbed by SWAT team officers and then whisked away in a Chevy Suburban to a local FBI field office.
WALTERS: At approximately 9:50 our units responded to a call that a female stating that she was in the apartment with Brian Nichols.
TUCHMAN: Police say the caller who tipped them off was a stranger who didn't know Nichols before he made his way into her apartment. She was forced inside with him but somehow called 911.
WALTERS: She was able to get out of the apartment and called us and our SWAT team responded, they deployed and our uniformed folks were able to control the scene, kept him contained. Shortly after the arrival of our SWAT team, Mr. Nichols surrendered to us without incident.
TUCHMAN: Just hours before, a federal immigration and customs agent was killed, his truck stolen. Police officials say the assistant special agent in charge's badge and his gun were also found inside the apartment. Police feared the worst when they knew they had Nichols cornered.
WALTERS: We had approximately 30 officers on the scene, 30 SWAT officers on the scene. Shortly after their arrival, Mr. Nichols surrendered, literally waving a white flag. So it ended as well as a situation like this can possibly end.
TUCHMAN: Authorities say Nichols ended up leaving the original murder scene not in a getaway car but aboard an Atlanta MARTA train instead. He will make his first appearance in court sometime next week.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WALTERS: The hero appears to be the woman who was held captive in her own home, somehow escaped, authorities aren't telling us how yet, and dialed 911. We asked them at a news conference here at the Atlanta City Hall, will she get the $60,000 reward and they are telling us that is still to be determined.
Now, Nichols has not been officially charged with the murders yet, that could take up to 30 days but they have made it very clear he will be charged with four counts of murder, likely three state counts and possibly one federal count for the killing of the customs officer. But this state will get the first chance to prosecute him, this case, and the State of Georgia has the death penalty. Carol?
LIN: All right, Gary, this case is going to be in court for a long, long time. Thank you very much. Gary Tuchman reporting live.
Well, for more than a day Atlanta was a city under siege. That fact hit home for residents in a Gwinnett County apartment complex. One by one, police cars sped to their doorsteps to find Brian Nichols. Kay Flowers of CNN affiliate WXIA has more on this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAY FLOWERS, WXIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just before 10 a.m. the lockdown began. Dozens of Gwinnett County police and other agencies swarmed the Bridgewater apartment complex on Satellite Boulevard, allowing no one in and checking at gunpoint anyone trying to leave. Some residents checked more closely than others.
OFFICER DARREN MOLONEY, GWINNETT COUNTY P.D.: They are safe, just lock all your doors, stay inside, do not be wandering around.
FLOWERS: SWAT members move in to surround the apartment where a woman says fugitive Brian Nichols held her hostage until she escaped to call police. And the woman's neighbors watch in terror.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had - It was like an army, task forces out here, it was ridiculous. You would have never thought they would have that many weapons for one man.
FLOWERS: When Nichols finally turned himself in without incident and was taken into FBI custody, driven out in an SUV, onlookers cheered with relief, especially Ernie Cash, whose brother called terrified from inside the apartment complex.
ERNIE CASH, WITNESS: It was just a very, very tragic time for us in Atlanta here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Well, that was Kay Flowers reporting from CNN affiliate WXIA, a dramatic story here in Atlanta. And there were so many people who actually came into contact with Nichols while he was on the run, each one of them has an amazing story to tell but perhaps the most incredible is that of a woman he held hostage for more than seven hours before she was able to call police. CNN's Tony Harris has her story.
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TONY HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Gwinnett County 911 dispatcher took the critical call that led to the capture of fugitive Brian Nichols.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had a female call in saying that he was in her apartment. I spoke with her myself and I sent the call up as a possible wanted person located.
HARRIS: The caller said Nichols was holed up in her apartment. Police say her ordeal began around 2 a.m., when Nichols pointed a gun at her as she was returning home to this apartment complex just north of Atlanta. She told police her terrifying ordeal began when Nichols forced her inside her apartment, tying her up while he considered his next move. She told police Nichols forced her to follow him while he dumped a stolen pickup truck that police say belonged to an immigration and customs official who was found dead early Saturday morning.
She told police the two returned in her car and for the next several hours she talked to him until he eventually let her go. That's when she called 911 and police and SWAT teams moved in. Neighbors in this quiet complex were shocked as word spread that the killer was among them.
Christina Scheel says she got a call from her husband warning her that Nichols was in the complex.
CHRISTINA SCHEEL, RESIDENT: I was pretty scared about it, actually. I called my mom and told her because I was pretty nervous and she said "Go in the bathroom, stay away from the windows" but basically the next thing I heard he was already caught so they did a really good job.
HARRIS: Nichols, the man believed to have shot and killed a judge and two others on Friday morning, surrendered without a struggle, waving a white cloth as he came out of the building.
JAMES MCCLURE, GWINNETT COUNTY SWAT: Obviously it's an emotional time for everybody but I think you rely on your training and you just revert back to what you've been trained to do, which is to be professional and do a job. That's the bottom line. And once we took him into custody, we're extremely happy.
HARRIS: Gwinnett County Police Chief Charles Walters says the victim was incredibly calm and provided useful information.
WALTERS: I do know that she was able to provide information, she was not panicked, she handled it very responsibly and very frankly, it was not a remarkable call. There was not a lot of panic or anything else. But she handled it - she was a champ.
HARRIS: Tony Harris, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Can you imagine staying that cool under that kind of pressure. And imagine the surprise of her neighbors in the Bridgewater apartments in suburban Gwinnett County when they learned that Nichols was holed up right inside their building.
CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is standing there right now. She joins me live with part of that story. Elizabeth, you can imagine that many of these people were probably sitting in front of their TV sets all day yesterday watching as this manhunt unfolded.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It was actually difficult for some of them to leave the complex, Carol. They were told when they tried to leave that they couldn't leave or their cars were searched and this story was still going on here at the Bridgewater apartment complex about 20 miles north of Downtown Atlanta. Federal law enforcement officials are still - They're behind me right now - taking evidence from this woman's apartment and loading into trucks. This is still happening. And, of course, it's been happening since this morning when Brian Nichols surrendered to police.
Now, for people who live there, the question that they're asking is why did he come here? It's about a mile off the interstate, off I- 85, but there are hundreds of apartment complex like this. This is a huge one, there are parks, there are playgrounds. It certainly doesn't look like the kind of place that a fugitive would necessarily want to go. Now, all of this took place today at building 34 and joining my here tonight are Adam and Amy Koppin, they lived - live still, in building 33. Tell me what happened this morning.
ADAM KOPPIN, RESIDENT: We were kind of oblivious to everything going on. We got in a car to leave. We pulled out. We started heading down the road and I saw a cop and I just thought it was a normal cop standing around the parking lot so I started pulling forward and I saw he had his gun drawn so I immediately stopped and he waved us to go on because we didn't want to get in the line of fire or anything so we kept going and we turned to go out the back way and the cops already had that blocked off so we went to the left and started pulling forward and there was already seven or eight cop cars already there. And they were getting on their gear and getting their guns out and they were interviewing a woman.
And we decided to go to the leasing office to figure out what was going on. We turn into the leasing office, we knocked on the door, they came and it was already locked up. They didn't want anybody going in there, so they let us in and they had told us that they thought Brian Nichols was in the complex.
COHEN: So, Amy, you looked out your window and you saw a policeman with his gun drawn pointing at you.
AMY KOPPIN, RESIDENT: Yeah. Well he was pointed at - he was looking around and just had his gun drawn but we looked at him and he said "Go, go," and we said "OK, we're going." So ...
COHEN: And when you tried to leave the complex, what happened?
ADAM KOPPIN: There was a line of cars. There was about probably three or four more cop cars, several others who just kept piling in. Several cops with rifles asking us to roll down our windows and just asking us if anybody had asked us for a ride and made us pop the trunk to see if there was anybody in the trunk.
COHEN: You must feel shock and then relief, is what you were telling us before. Well, thank you very much. And again, we're in Duluth, Georgia, about 20 miles north of Downtown Atlanta. Carol?
LIN: Thanks very much, Elizabeth.
Well the day of the courthouse shootings, Brian Nichols was on his way to court to face rape and false imprisonment charges and I spoke with his defense attorney, Barry Hazen, representing Nichols in the rape case, about security concerns before the shootings, in fact, right before the shootings, concerns that were voiced as early as Thursday when Nichols brought homemade weapons into court. But there may have been even earlier signs of trouble. Last August, after the rape allegations, Nichols' own friends told police they thought he was dangerous and turned him in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: You actually had an indication from his own friends back in December that they were afraid that he was going to turn violent. Explain some of those concerns and what you were thinking as you were working with Brian Nichols.
BARRY HAZEN, NICHOLS' ATTORNEY: Well, this is not something that I had expressed previously, but I understand it's now out in the press. I'm not sure the source of the information, that he had a number of friends, basketball friends mostly, and they began to be concerned about his behavior after they knew that he was being searched - they were looking for him because of the rape charge and they actually notified the police of his whereabouts because they were concerned that he was going to get hurt if he resisted.
They thought he would resist.
LIN: And this was back in ...
HAZEN: This was on August 23rd, only a few days after the allegation of rape. And so that was in the back of my mind, also.
LIN: That there was a warning from the people who knew him best.
HAZEN: The people who knew him best thought there was a warning but I responded to him on the basis of what I saw firsthand and he had always been a perfect gentleman to me. He was very respectful to me. He and I could disagree about what ought to happen in the course of the trial, how to present things, what to present, whether or not he should testify but whenever he disagreed it was always in the most respectful, intellectual way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Interesting. All right. In the meantime, Barry Hazen said there was a premonition by the judge who was killed yesterday about violence in the courtroom. Barry is going to be talking about that in about 20 minutes. So stay with me for more of my interview with Barry Hazen.
In the meantime, hindsight, of course, is 20-20 they say and lawmen are no doubt evaluating possible missed opportunities in tracking their quarry. How Brian Nichols managed to elude the largest manhunt in Georgia history. Could police have caught him sooner? Well, we're going to show exclusive security camera pictures that CNN has. That right after a break.
Also, more on the victims. Who were they and how the lone survivor of the shooting rampage is actually faring right now.
And later, LARRY KING LIVE, inside the manhunt and the capture, that is at 9 Eastern.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: On the run for more than 26 hours, he alluded police on foot, with a series of carjackings and possibly by subway. Police captured 33-year-old Brian Nichols around 11 a.m. Eastern Time today. A 911 call from a woman whom Nichols allegedly held for several hours at a suburban Atlanta apartment, helped police make the arrest. The crime spree started Friday morning at a Downtown Atlanta courthouse where police say Nichols killed a judge, a deputy and a court reporter. Authorities also suspect him in the shooting death of a federal agent during a carjacking.
Well, the manhunt for Brian Nichols was said to be the largest in Georgia history. Local state and federal law enforcement officials were on the case, but could Nichols have been caught sooner?
Well, joining me for that part of the story, CNN's Randi Kaye, and Randi, obviously major implications because a federal agent and a deputy died after Nichols actually physically left the courthouse.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Carol. And now it seems that there may have been some poor communication between all of the agencies involved. We certainly know that there were some missed opportunities in getting on Brian Nichols trail faster. Following the shooting at the courthouse on Friday, Nichols came to a parking garage that's behind me there in the distance. It's there that we understand he carjacked a man, took his 1997 Honda Accord. Police believed that he actually left that garage in that car until a private citizen found that car parked there and directed investigators to it.
It wasn't until today that police realized Nichols had actually left that garage on foot and took Atlanta's public transportation system, known as MARTA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA P.D.: All of the information that we had received from witnesses and sources indicated that the vehicle had left the scene and so we did not search the entire parking garage. Remember, we still thought he was in the car so we had no reason to close down MARTA because we thought he was still in the Honda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Now it turns out that that Honda was parked just one floor below where it had been carjacked, so investigators, if they had just walked around the entire parking garage, they may have seen it. We talked with a former FBI agent today about that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: What should have been done? They came here to investigate a carjacking and then put out an alert on a car that was parked right here. What were the proper steps that should have been taken? HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, in retrospect, what you say is this place should have been shut down, and it would have been shut down two to three, four hours, whatever it would take to make sure there was nothing else in this deck that we know.
KAYE: Right. And if you just go over to right here - One level down.
COPUS: One level down.
KAYE: So close that if they had just walked a little bit farther they could have seen it.
COPUS: I know. Isn't that scary?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYE: Now we want to show you some exclusive video. This is exclusive video obtained by CNN of Brian Nichols in that garage. He is caught on camera driving the Honda in question then walking down a flight of stairs after parking that Honda and leaving it behind. Investigators did not ask for this tape until 14 hours after the manhunt began, until that car was actually discovered parked there.
Now, in talking with that former FBI agent today, he told me that what will follow this manhunt is something called after action meetings, where all the departments will come together and they will determine what went wrong, and, of course, how to fix that in the future. Carol?
LIN: Let's hope so. Thanks very much, Randi Kaye.
Obviously when he cover these crime stories we really mustn't forget the victims of the Atlanta courthouse shooting. So, coming up, the latest on the lone survivor of the shootings. I'm going to talk with one of the doctors who was treating her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: We have spent a lot of airtime focusing on murder suspect Brian Nichols. But we remind ourselves now of the people he is accused of killing. Four families and countless friends are grieving tonight. Their loved ones, police say, all victims of Nichols' rampage. The latest, and this is a photo that David Wilhelm's wife asked that we at CNN share with you. This is her husband. He is the immigration and customs enforcement agent whose body was found this morning in a home he was having built.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK TAYLOR, WILHELM'S FRIEND: When they told me what had happened and what he was doing at the time, he was laying tile and doing his second business on the side. That's what he loved to do is build houses on the side. He was just such a good guy and he would give you the shirt off your back. It didn't matter, it didn't matter. It's such a senseless killing, why did it have to happen to him? It shouldn't have happened to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Three others will killed Friday in the line of duty, gunned down at the Fulton County courthouse. Judge Roland Barnes, court reporter Julie Brandau and Deputy Hoyt Teasley.
Fulton Count Sheriff's Deputy Cynthia Ann Hall remains in Atlanta Hospital and police say Hall was overpowered by Brian Nichols at the courthouse on Friday. They say that he took her gun and injured her in the struggle. Dr. Jeffrey Solomon worked on some of the victims of the courthouse shooting and he joins me now to share his experience. He is one of the doctors who is treating Deputy Hall.
Dr. Salomone, there is some confusion about her injury. You're still not certain whether she was actually shot.
DR. JEFFREY SALOMONE, SURGEON: That's correct. The initial report was that she had been shot and when she presented to the emergency room at Grady she had a laceration, a wound, on her forehead above both of her eyes and we thought at the time it seemed like kind of an unusual injury for a gunshot wound, if it was a gunshot wound it would be simply a graze wound and that it was very lucky that it didn't enter her skull.
In retrospect, at the time we did the press conference, I was still operating with the impression she had been shot but after that came to realize that it was her weapon that had been taken, so she could well have been assaulted, pistol whipped, struck with the gun or even punched and knocked to the ground and suffered her injuries as her head impacted on the concrete floor.
LIN: Obviously she's at the center of some of the controversy over court security, what had been described to be as a middle-aged, petite female deputy escorting a rape suspect, 6'2, 220 lbs to court. But she is not a petite woman and she doesn't seem to be by your description a shrinking violet by any means.
SALOMONE: No, she doesn't appear that way and having worked with a number of female Atlanta police officers over the year, I think appearances can be very deceptive.
LIN: Do you think - Has she been able to talk about what happened?
SALOMONE: No she has not. When she arrived in the emergency room, she was combative at that point in time and it was difficult for us to do our assessment to determine whether or not she had any life- threatening injuries. So in a situation like that, with the understanding that she had been shot in the head we had to get a CT scan of her brain and so she required sedation and then being put on a mechanical ventilator at that point in time.
The CT scan showed that she's got a small bruise on the frontal lobe of her brain, the front part of her brain. She also has fractures around her right eye socket that will probably need surgery at some point in time.
LIN: Fair to say, Dr. Salomone, this woman is very lucky to be alive.
SALOMONE: She's very lucky. Her family knows that she's blessed and we agree with them.
LIN: All right. Dr. Salomone, and the wisdom of Solomon be with that family. Thank you very much for joining us and updating us.
SALOMONE: Thank you.
LIN: On how the deputy is doing.
Well, in the meantime, a check of some of the other stories making news, including a deadly church service shooting. Also we are going to hear from the family of accused courthouse shooter Brian Nichols and later ...
HAZEN (video clip): With a manhunt this large it was going to end soon and I'm just glad it ended without any further bloodshed and no other families are going to be affected by this.
LIN: Much more of my interview with Brian Nichols' defense attorney. Did he see the attack coming?
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LIN: Welcome back. Our special coverage of the capture of Brian Nichols resumes momentarily but first a quick look at the day's other headlines.
And right now in the news a church service at a hotel near Milwaukee, Wisconsin ended in violence when police say a gunman opened fire, killing seven people and then himself. Several people are hospitalized, some in serious condition. Police say the shooter was affiliated with the church but there is no word yet on a possible motive.
Funeral services were held near Denver, Colorado today for Donna Humphrey, the mother of federal Judge Joan Humphrey Lefkow. Police say a man bent on revenge for one of Lefkow's rulings admitted he killed her mother and her husband nearly two weeks ago at the judge's home in Chicago. The murder suspect, Bart Ross, committed suicide during a traffic stop this week.
And who is Brian Nichols and why would he do the things is accused of? Well, CNN's Kathleen Koch is in Baltimore, Maryland, trying to find some answers to that question. She joins us now live with some of his family's reactions. This, Kathleen, a man they said never in their wildest imaginations they would think would go on a killing spree.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Precisely, Carol and they are really, friends and family, in a state of disbelief here. They say that the man charged with these brutal murders in Atlanta is simply nothing like the Brian Nichols they once knew.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH (voice-over): In this working class neighborhood in Northeast Baltimore, Brian Nichols was someone to look up to. He played sports and graduated from a local Catholic school, Cardinal Gibbons High School. He played football at Kutztown University in Pennsylvania.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was an athlete, basketball, football, martial arts but never was someone who used martial arts on a negative note, so it was always positive.
KOCH: Maxine Glover, who didn't want to appear on camera, lived next door to Nichols.
MAXINE GLOVER, NEIGHBOR: A normal young child playing with the other kids in the block, very well-mannered, had no problem with him at all.
KOCH: Nichols' brother Mark, who now lives in Plantation, Florida, tells CNN he's very upset. In a statement saying, quote, "Everyone knows me as the brother of the person who killed those people."
Nichols' uncle offered condolences to the family of those killed in Atlanta.
REGGIE SMALLS, NICHOLS' UNCLE: Our hearts go out to them and Brian was a nice young man as far as we knew. I don't know what happened.
KOCH: That's the question now for friends like Charles Franklin, who grew up with Nichols and is now a pastor at a local church.
CHARLES FRANKLIN, JR., CLASSMATE: Now I just hope that they are able to do some kind of psychiatric assessment of him just to see at what point did his life change so drastically, at what point did he break?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOCH (on camera): No reaction yet from Nichols' parents. Friends and family say they are in Africa, where Nichols' mother works, but they are due to be back in the area as soon as next week. Carol?
LIN: Kathleen, thank you very much. You know, I spoke today with the defense attorney who was representing Brian Nichols in the rape case and we ran part of that interview with Barry Hazen for you earlier in the hour but now we want to share some more of his insights and even some of the things that were almost prophetic in the days leading up to the shooting.
And obviously, Hazen says he is glad Nichols is back in custody.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Give me your reaction of the arrest now of Brian Nichols.
HAZEN: Well, I'm relieved. I am relieved because people were injured and there won't be any more injuries. He won't be injured. I knew that the situation had to end and soon. With a manhunt this large it was going to end soon and I'm just glad it ended without any further bloodshed and no other families are going to be affected by this.
LIN: Right. Well, we have to see how the events unfold from here on out. But you actually had almost a premonition of the event. The conversation that you actually had with Judge Barnes just a few days before the shooting. What happened?
HAZEN: It was actually the day before. When Judge Barnes became aware that Brian had these metal objects in his shoes and decided to beef up security, after we made the decision about the security will be beefed up and how it will be beefed up, myself and the two prosecutors in the case spent about another 10 or 11 minutes in his chamber just generally talking about the kinds of risks that officers of the court face in many situations.
And we weren't quite laughing about it but Judge Barnes actually turned to me and said, you know, generally speaking it's the defense attorney who is at the most risk because violent criminal defendants often think that the judge and the prosecutors are just doing their job but if he gets convicted, it's the defense attorney who didn't do his or her job. And that was about the last thing we said when we went from his chambers into the courtroom on the fourth day of trial.
LIN: Do you think that your client actually planned this attack and this escape?
HAZEN: It's very hard to say that. If the facts of the case are as I've been led to believe, was that one deputy guarded him without handcuffs, then it would be very difficult for him to have predicted that he would be in that fortunate situation, although there was an incident the day before where a juror might have seen Mr. Nichols in handcuffs being led into the courtroom after lunch. An inquiry was made of that juror and Judge Barnes spoke to the deputy and expressed some dissatisfaction if the defendant was seen in handcuffs and that might have caused people to err on the side of him not being seen in handcuffs as opposed to err on the side of being just a little bit more secure.
LIN: Barry, this must make you crazy. You work in that courthouse all the time.
HAZEN: Yes.
LIN: You have seen how many lapses in this particular case where this man not only was able to get a gun, go down eight flights of stairs, escape, carjack - shoot his way out of the courtroom, carjack his way through the city of Atlanta. HAZEN: Well, it's hard for me to speak to anything that happened on the street, because I don't know, but in the courtroom, even after it became apparent that he had weapons in his shoes, the only beefed up security was the addition of one female deputy in the courtroom, there was a male deputy and a female all the time. We added just one deputy.
And there was another thing that occurred and that is there was - the deputies guarding him changed, it was not the same deputies day after day, and I rather suspect - and to some extent this is Monday morning quarterbacking now, I think that we might look into consistency.
If you have the same deputies guarding someone throughout the course of the trial, you are much more likely to get people who will understand how this person responds to directions, how this person is likely to react in certain situations. You just know the routine of the person you're dealing with and the emotions and I think there should have been some consistency there and there was none. I mean, you got different deputies every day.
LIN: Now wait a second, you spoke with your client when? It was what, Thursday?
HAZEN: The last time I spoke with Mr. Nichols was when I left court on Thursday at about 5:15 or so.
LIN: And you noticed something different in his demeanor?
HAZEN: Well, he was festive - When I e-mailed his mother, I indicated that I thought his attitude was almost festive.
LIN: Which was inappropriate given the circumstances. Was the trial necessarily going his way? I hear it was not.
HAZEN: No, I didn't think the trial was going his way at all. The second trial was a lot stronger in terms of the evidence presented then was the first. I did not think that he was going to have the favorable result in the second trial that he had in the first.
LIN: So what was going through his mind then?
HAZEN: It's hard to say. Some people just accept their fate, perhaps he was thinking I'm not going to be here for the verdict. I don't know. I can't read his mind but that was the last time I spoke with him and I made particular note that his attitude was jovial. Nothing that gave me an indication that he was going to respond violently. If anything it gave me the indication that maybe he just didn't care anymore. That he was going to make as much a joke out of it as he though.
LIN: What have the lost 24 hours been for you like personally? Did you think - Did you ever fear for your own life? Did you think that he was going to come after you?
HAZEN: Yes and no. I tried to look at it logically and think, well, the world hates him, the only person out there who was likely still to be considered a friend to him was me, but on the other hand he shot Julie, he shot the court reporter, for no apparent reason. This was not anyone who expressed any animus to him at all and so I thought that he's completely irrational. Not that murder is ever a rational act but that his irrationality was beyond what you would normally see and so I didn't know.
I took precautions. I was willing to stay involved in the process in an effort to try to get him to turn himself in. I didn't see anybody hurt and frankly didn't want to see him hurt either. And I know his family didn't want to see him hurt and I was in contact with his mother over there.
But I had to be concerned about my safety and I had to be concerned about the safety of my family and so I evacuated my office as soon as I heard and I didn't sleep at home last night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Again, that was Barry Hazen, the attorney who has been defending Brian Nichols in his rape trial. In the meantime, the Atlanta shootings have left many people on edge, including those who will be returning to the courthouse on Monday, so straight ahead, how court employees are preparing to go back to work.
And a security expert considers changes to make our courtrooms safer.
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LIN: And welcome back to our special edition of CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Tonight the capture of Brian Nichols capping a deadly courthouse shooting in Atlanta and the largest manhunt in Georgia history.
Now, Nichols surrendered peacefully this morning at an apartment in suburban Atlanta where he was holed up with a female hostage who was eventually able to call 911. Brian Nichols is in federal custody tonight. Sources told CNN he would be held at the Atlanta federal penitentiary. Nichols is accused of killing three people yesterday at the Fulton County courthouse and later a federal agent in an apparent random robbery.
Now, among the victims of the courthouse shooting, superior court Judge Roland Barnes. Warm tributes are pouring in from those who knew him and Judge Diane Bessen was not only a colleague of Judge Barnes but also a family friend and she is joining me here tonight at the CNN center and this has got to be a huge sigh of relief for you and your family and Judge Barnes' family.
JUDGE DIANE BESSEN, FULTON COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: Well, it was obviously disturbing to know he was out on the loose the last 30 hours or so but this whole - the last 24, 30 hours has really just - I don't think the enormity of what happened has sunk in yet. I don't think it will 'til maybe Monday morning when I go back to work.
LIN: What is that going to be like for you?
BESSEN: I wish I knew. I think it's going to be - obviously bring back a lot of really hard, difficult memories. I think that - Everyone who works down there, I mean, it's a family, it's like any place everyone works, you know everyone you work with, the deputies, the clerks, in fact ...
LIN: You knew Judge Barnes' wife who I didn't know worked down at the courthouse and was there at the day of the shooting.
BESSEN: Judge - Claudia Barnes, just a good friend, she works for one of the other state court judges, Judge John Mayther (ph). And she was at the courthouse on Friday and from what I understand there were rumors that there had been a shooting on the eighth floor and she knows, obviously, that's where his chambers were, so it was obviously devastating for her.
LIN: Well, look, everybody is talking about what the breakdown in courthouse security might have been. You, as a presiding judge, do you want to carry a gun in a courtroom? Is that what it's going to take to make you feel safe?
BESSEN: I hope it doesn't come to that. I have to say there have been instances where we've had -- one of the - down (ph) south annex at Fulton County for a long time had a large Lucite barrier, a bulletproof barrier around the bench and I sat in that courtroom when I was a magistrate and I have to tell you it was very uncomfortable. We have done court in the past - We do a lot of video court and I think maybe we're going to see a lot more of that, where the inmates are actually at the jail and we handle court via video transmission and ...
LIN: Has it come to that?
BESSEN: We do actually handle warrants that way and I think unfortunately we may see more of that. I think it's obviously very awkward and uncomfortable because you need the interaction. I would hate to see a defendant trial by video where the jurors were sitting in one place with a video and a judge sitting someplace else and a defendant down at the jail. I really think that would be horrible and I hope it won't come to that.
LIN: So what about carrying a weapon, judge? Do you think that would make a difference for you? Will that make you safer?
BESSEN: I don't think that. You know, I've got young children, I say that now, I doubt I'd ever think of doing that. I think in any work situation, you know, we've had shootings at post offices and schools and work environments, I'm not sure there's any place where you can bee safe 100 percent of the time and obviously there are going to be some changes at Fulton County and I'll be curious to see what sorts of changes are made but ...
LIN: If you - knowing the courthouse as you know it, if you could make one change, one change that would be absolutely signature in your mind, to prevent this from ever happening again, what would it be?
BESSEN: Well, I think there are going to have to be some different procedures with the inmates and partly I know that Fulton County Jail has had some problems over the last year or so with staffing and I think - and we always anticipated a lot of problems with the jail but I think now there's going to have to be an overhaul to look at how the inmates are transported once they get to the jail and you have to understand we have almost 30 judges down there and if you're talking about so many defendants per judge, it's an enormous - you're talking about three, 400 inmates that are transported every day to that facility and so there's going to have to be some changes with the transporting and security of the inmates.
LIN: And the number of inmates.
BESSEN: And the number of inmates.
LIN: In one place. Judge Bessen, thank you very much.
BESSEN: Thank you.
LIN: All right, and when you speak with Judge Barnes' wife, please offer our condolences.
BESSEN: I'm hoping to do that tomorrow, actually. Thank you.
LIN: In the meantime, the Atlanta courthouse killings have opened a big can of worms over security. We've just been talking about that with Judge Bessen. Sheriff's officials here in Atlanta say they're procedures will be reviewed but were mistakes made? And if so, what lessons can be learned? So joining me now from Cleveland, Stark County common pleas court Judge Lee Sinclair. He teaches a class on courthouse security.
Judge, you actually teach judges and bailiffs and court reporters, the whole gamut of what to do, what to look for. In this particular case, what do you think went wrong?
JUDGE LEE SINCLAIR, STARK COUNTY: Well, we don't have all of the facts yet, but based upon what we know, if it proves to be that this individual, high profile crimes, problems at the jail, they found shanks in his socks. The judge had asked for some extra security, leading someone through a hallway not in a courtroom without shackles and without handcuffs on, if those things all prove to be true - A single deputy doing the transporting - there were some problems.
LIN: Earlier I talked with one of the judges down at the courthouse and he said one of the biggest problems is complacency, that moving the number of inmates and the nature of crimes just gets to be the business of the day and he said that he was very concerned that there was a level of complacency, that this was just normal, everyday procedures.
SINCLAIR: And that happens and one of the things that we do to avoid that in our courthouse is we move our court security people around so that they don't get too familiar with the inmates that they're transporting and they don't get too comfortable with, I'm just transporting ...
LIN: Well, that's interesting because the defense attorney for Brian Nichols actually said that it would be better if the same deputies were assigned to the courthouse, the same deputies to the same case because they would get to know the body language and the attitude of the inmate and be better capable of responding if there was an emergency.
SINCLAIR: The same deputies the same case, that's not a bad idea, frequently. But over the time period we rotate our deputies every few months so that they don't get too complacent with the fact that they're just transporting people in a courthouse.
LIN: You think judges should be armed in their courtrooms?
SINCLAIR: You know, that's a very personal decision for a judge. I think a judge has an absolute right to do that if the judge believes that it's necessary ...
LIN: Do you arm yourself in the courtroom when you're presiding over a case?
SINCLAIR: That's a security issue for us that's classified but I will say this. I have a reputation of being very cautious.
LIN: For being very cautious.
SINCLAIR: Yes.
LIN: All right. Well, they're feeling pretty cautious down at the Fulton County courthouse these days.
What changes, then, would you recommend down at the Fulton County courthouse given what you know?
SINCLAIR: Well, first of all, any inmate should never be un- handcuffed or unshackled when they're being moved throughout the building. Once they're in the courtroom with adequate security, if you are going to unshackle them, un-cuff them, then you put them in their chair and they stay in the chair. They do not move, they do not stand up under any circumstance.
LIN: But there was an allegation that one of the jurors in the case, a concern by Judge Barnes, was that a juror actually saw the suspect shackled, or at least handcuffed and that it might effect their judgment in this latest rape trial.
SINCLAIR: And that's a problem and what you need to do is do your scheduling so that your jury and your inmate do not see each other until that inmate is in the courtroom, unshackled, in a chair, then you bring the jury into the courtroom.
LIN: All right. Judge Sinclair, thank you very much for ...
SINCLAIR: Thank you. LIN: In the meantime, this just into the CNN center. We have learned that Brian Nichols will be making his first court appearance in federal court on Monday morning, Monday at the earliest, I am getting a correction, there. Monday at the earliest. The specific charges have not been named. He is facing a firearms charge. He will be facing murder counts but there are more charges expected to come.
In the meantime, we've got much more of our special coverage coming up on the Brian Nichols capture and the case and the investigation, so stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Well, the dramatic chase is over and now officials are building there case against Brian Nichols. The rape defendant turned murder suspect was captured at an apartment complex in Gwinnett County, north of Atlanta earlier today after 26 hours on the run. Police say he surrendered after a woman he held hostage in her apartment managed to get out and call 911.
Now, earlier, police believe Nichols killed David Wilhelm, an immigration and customs agent whose body was found in Atlanta's Buckhead neighborhood this morning. Police say Nichols took Wilhelm's badge, gun and truck.
Now, earlier, this exclusive CNN video captured by security cameras shows Nichols inside a downtown parking garage shortly after police believe he carjacked several vehicles. The killing spree began only blocks away from that garage inside the Fulton County Courthouse where police say Nichols overpowered a sheriff's deputy, stole her gun, and then killed the judge presiding over his case and the court reporter and a sheriff's deputy outside who tried to stop him from getting away.
"LARRY KING LIVE" has much more on the Nichols capture. That is coming up after a short break.
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