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CNN Live Saturday

CardSystems Security Breach; "Operation Spear"; Natalee Holloway; Trial Edgar Ray Killen; U.S. Open; Condoleezza Rice in Israel as Disengagement Plan is Put into Action; Congress Debates Guantanamo Bay

Aired June 18, 2005 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: It is Noon on the East coast, 9:00 a.m. out West. Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. I'm Fredricka Whitfield, thanks for joining us. Unfolding this hour:
Credit cardholders, listen up. You may be among the nearly 40 million affected by the latest security breach.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS HOOFNAGLE, EPIC: This one is looking more and more like an Exxon Valdez privacy, where literally tens of millions of accounts have been compromised.

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WHITFIELD: This hour, how the security breach happened and what you can do to protect yourself against fraud.

Also this hour, the intense battle against insurgents in Iraq. CNN's Jane Arraf is with U.S. Marines, with an exclusive report.

And re-living the horrors of the past: A Mississippi man on trial for the murders of three civil rights workers more than 40 years ago. We're there live. First, here are the other stories making news.

U.S. secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, is on a diplomatic mission to the Middle East. She's holding separate talks with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Earlier today, Rice told Palestinian leaders they must plan together with Israeli officials, for this summer's withdrawal of Jewish settlers from Gaza. We've got a live report coming up on Rice's visit straight ahead.

The United States is at odds over a key issue with its group of eight partners, as the G-8 Summit draws closer. The Bush administration is resisting efforts to name global warming as an urgent problem at next month's summit in Scotland. Negotiators are working on a draft document right now. The U.S. is the only member of the group that did not sign the Kyoto treaty on global warming back in 1997.

At the U.S. Open Golf Championship, the course at Pinehurst, North Carolina, is proving to be as tough as its reputation. The co- leaders going into the third round are two-time Open champs Retief Goosen, and Olin Browne, and Jason Gore.

We begin this hour with another possible threat to your credit and your identity. Listen to this, more than 40 million credit card accounts have been compromised and could expose cardholders to fraud and allow someone to steal your money. CNN's Allan Chernoff joins us in a moment with some advice for consumers, but first CNN's Chris Huntington explains what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The FBI is investigating what may be the biggest criminal security breach of credit card information, ever. The names and numbers on some 40 million credit card accounts appear to have been stolen from the computers of CardSystems Solutions, a processor of credit card transactions in Tucson, Arizona. Twenty-two million Visa card accounts and nearly 14 million MasterCard accounts were compromised, according to the companies.

HOOFNAGLE: This one is looking more and more like an Exxon Valdez privacy, where literally tens of millions of accounts have been compromised. The big risk here is massive amounts of credit card fraud.

HUNTINGTON: Massive indeed. The number of accounts breached at CardSystems Solutions is nearly 10 times that of the previous five biggest reported data losses combined. From a unit of CitiGroup, Bank of America, CNN's parent company Time Warner, Ameritrade and ChoicePoint.

How could CardSystems lose control of 40 million accounts? Dan Clements a data security professional and expert at retrieving stolen computer files says thieves on the inside could have dumped data on to disks, hacked in from the outside with a virus, or most likely, exploited well known weak spots in the company's computer system using access codes that can be found on the internet.

DAN CLEMENTS, CORDCOPS.COM: They scan the server of the bank, or processor, for known vulnerabilities: Files unprotected. And what they do is they load in 1,000 different files into a scanner and they just hit submit and it goes to that server, looks for a hole and if they find the hole, bingo, they're in the server and they have access to 40 million records. It's that simple.

HUNTINGTON: Both Visa and MasterCard tell CNN that CardSystems Solutions was not in compliance with their security requirements. CardSystems says it discovered the, quote, "potential security incident" on May 22, told the FBI the next day, then told Visa and MasterCard.

LINDA FORD, CARDSYSTEMS SOLUTIONS: We called in a third party forensics investigator that happens to actually be certified with MasterCard, to come in here and to do a complete investigation, scan of everything, to actually image systems and to go back and do a research on what was going on. HUNTINGTON: MasterCard tells CNN that it has detected only a small amount of fraudulent activity in the accounts lost from CardSystems and that because the data did not contain social security number nor addresses, identity theft would be highly unlikely.

Chris Huntington, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Now what if your accounts are compromised or your identity stolen? CNN senior correspondent, Allan Chernoff, joins us with some timely and important tips for fighting back.

So, Allan, often most of us get our credit card bills, look at the amount due and just pay it. Why can't we do that anymore?

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SR. CORRESPONDENT: You know, it was always a bad idea, but now especially. I mean, that's virtually an invitation to get ripped off. These days, you absolutely have to check your statements. Make sure that everything on there is something you actually did purchase. Now, you might want to wait until you get the statement in the mail, if you're particularly concerned now, you can check online. Most credit card companies allow you to do that. Or you can also call up the issuer of your credit card and ask to hear the last few transactions. So they'll tell you, and make sure that they are, in fact, transactions that you or your family engaged in.

WHITFIELD: Now, what if your Visa or MasterCard happens to be attached to ATM privileges? What happens? Are you at risk, just like the -- just like the Visa or MasterCard credit cardholders?

CHERNOFF: What happened here is that the hacker was able -- or hackers -- they were able to actually get the credit card numbers, the expiration dates, but they don't have pin numbers and of course that's what you need when you're accessing an ATM, when you're using either a credit or debit card to take money out from an ATM. So, pin numbers, personal identification numbers are not involved. There's no risk that somebody's going to use your number, create a facsimile card, go to the bank, and actually pull out a few hundred bucks.

WHITFIELD: Well, it seems as though, Allan, there have been a string of incidents very similar to that -- this as of late, so is this a new wave of crime?

CHERNOFF: You know, security experts, electronic security experts, are saying "not at all." this is actually the result of a new law in California passed in the summer of 2003 requiring companies to reveal whenever personal data has been breached, whenever it's been given out in an unauthorized fashion. So now companies are essentially fessing up, saying "whoops, your data has actually been given away or taken or stolen." This doesn't mean that all of a sudden we've got a new wave of crime. Experts say it's been going on for quite sometime, except now we're actually hearing about it.

WHITFIELD: All right, well, thanks for helping to keep us informed. Allan Chernoff, thanks so much.

Well, for more ways to protect yourself against credit card fraud, go to CNN.com/money. You'll find additional resources and security alerts with the very latest information.

Turning now to fight for Iraq. "Operation Spear" is in full swing in Karabila, an insurgent safe haven near Iraq's border with Syria. U.S. Marines have been engaged in a fierce battle to route insurgents from a bunker complex that is believed to have been used as a car bomb factory. CNN's Jane Arraf is there, embedded with U.S. Marines, she joins us now by videophone with this exclusive report -- Jane.

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, it was another day of intense fighting in the city of 60,000 people, very close to the Syrian border. In fact, it was probably more intense than the first day of the operation, when Marines came in looking for more than 100 foreign fighters, as well as substantial numbers of Iraqi insurgents. They found relatively little gunfire on the first day of the operation, but today, on the second day as they moved further into the city, the fighting erupted.

The insurgents launched mortars, rockets, gunfire, in various parts of town, the Marines responded by dropping bombs on some of the houses, as well as responding with every other weapon at their disposal. One of the targets was a bunker complex where they found, as they went in, four people who had been held hostage, some of them for as long as three weeks. These were people who had been tortured horribly. Two of them were the Iraqi border police. They said they had been hung up from the ceiling. We saw room where they were hung up in, Fredricka. We saw the instruments used to torture them. They have terrible marks on their bodies. They were so a afraid, they did not want us to show their faces, they didn't want us to put their voices on television. That was all in a complex that also was used, accord to the Marines, to make car bomb. In fact, they blew up one car that was believed to have been loaded with explosives. So, uncertain what they'll find as they continue to go through this city -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Jane, about those hostages, what kind of information are they revealing? Some of the questions being asked by their captors, why were they being held?

ARRAF: That's one of the sad things, Fredricka. They told us that, when we asked, were these Iraqi, were they foreigners? The two younger ones, who say they don't know why they were picked up, although Marine officials tell us they were perhaps simply from the wrong tribe, said that they weren't really questioned at all. One said the only voice he heard was one whispering in his ear saying "you're going to die." The other two were with the border police and who bore the brunt of the most severe torture, also said that they weren't really interrogated. It seems to have been a message to intimidate the local population and any of those people who work for the police. It's uncertain how much information they'll reveal. But, certainly, it's an indication of the length that insurgents here are going to, trying to intimidate Iraqis -- Fredricka. WHITFIELD: Jane Arraf from Karabila, thanks very much for that report via videophone.

A second offensive, this one coded "Operation Dagger," just got underway this morning in the al-Anbar province. It's about 50 miles northwest of Baghdad. A thousand U.S. Marines and Sailors are on a mission to disrupt insurgent hideouts and sniff out hidden weapons. This is the same area where U.S. Marines uncovered a huge underground bunker at a rock quarry, earlier this month.

President Bush says the U.S. will settle for nothing less than victory in Iraq. With growing criticism from opponents and low approval rating, Mr. Bush made it clear in today's radio address he has no intention of pulling out too soon.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We went to war because we were attacked. And we are at war today because there are still people out there who want to harm our country and hurt our citizens. Some may disagree with my decision to remove Saddam Hussein from power, but all of us can agree that the world's terrorists have now made Iraq a central front in the war on terror. These foreign terrorists violently oppose the rise of a free and democratic Iraq. Because they know when we replace despair and hatred with liberty and hope, they lose their recruiting grounds for terror.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Several lawmakers are backing a proposed bill to begin pulling U.S. troop out of Iraq by October of next year.

In Iraq's next door neighboring country of Iran, former President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani is closer to making a comeback. He holds a narrow lead in the presidential election and will be one of the two candidates in a runoff next Friday. About 31 million voters, over 65 percent of the electorate, went to the polls in yesterday's election. Rafsanjani is seen as a pragmatic conservative. He campaigned on a platform of more jobs, fewer social restrictions, and better international relations. In the runoff, Rafsanjani will face a former mayor of Tehran, who's also a religious hard-liner.

And while the election is getting a lot of international attention, it's not expected to change Iran's theo -- theocratic government, rather. The country is controlled by supreme leader Ayatolly (SIC) Ali Khamenei.

In Mississippi, the prosecution has rested in the trial of a reputed former Ku Klux Klan member who is accused of spearheading the murders of three civil rights workers. The trial Edgar Ray Killen comes 41 years after those killing. CNN's Catherine Callaway is keeping track of the trial at the Neshoba County Courthouse in Philadelphia -- Catherine.

CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon Fredricka. Well, the court is actually recessed for the weekend, the judge giving the jury Father's Day off. The defense will be back presenting its case on Monday morning.

This morning though, the prosecution continued with their efforts to make the victims of this 41-year-old case seem very real to the jury. The mother of slain civil rights worker, James Cheney, took the stand today. Eighty-two-year-old Fannie Lee Chaney wept several times on the stand today as she recalled the day that her son died in 1964. She also said that she had to move from her hometown within a year of the murders because she feared for her life.

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FANNIE LEE CHANEY, MOTHER OF JAMES CHENEY: They was threatening, so bad, me and my little son, Ben, they told me they was going to put dynamite under the house, blow us to bits and everything and I better get on away from there, because I wasn't going to be there long before they would be -- before I'd be put in a hole like James was.

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CALLAWAY: And immediately following Chaney's testimony, the state rested its case, the defense began theirs with three witnesses, one minister and two siblings of Edgar Ray Killen's. On the cross- examination, however, the district attorney, Mark Duncan, a native of this town, found himself in the line of fire today, when he asked one of the siblings if he was aware of his brother's involvement in the Klan.

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OSCAR KILLEN, DEFENDANT'S BROTHER: I've heard more talk that your daddy and granddaddy was in the Klan more than I have him. Sure have. That's honest. I swore on the bible, gentleman, that's the way I've heard it all these years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CALLAWAY: That was the district attorney -- he was referring to district attorney's Mark Duncan's father and grandfather. The district attorney did not respond to the witness. The defense will continue with its case Monday morning with two more witnesses expected. Then we'll hear closing argument and Fredricka, we could see this 41-year-old case come to an end early next week. Back to you.

WHITFIELD: All right, Catherine Callaway thanks so much, from Philadelphia, Mississippi.

In Aruba, a fourth suspect is in custody. But are authorities any closer to finding missing Alabama teen, Natalee Holloway? We'll have a live report straight ahead.

And debate rages on whether the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay should be closed. Our guests will weigh in.

Plus, is Los Angeles at risk for a nuclear attack? We'll find out how easy it would be for terrorists to plan and execute the deadly scenario.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Authorities in Aruba have broadened their investigation into the disappearance of an Alabama teenager. Another person has been arrested in the case. But the search for Natalee Holloway goes on. The latest now from CNN's Chris Lawrence in Palm Beach, Aruba -- Chris.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, that fourth suspect is Stephen Gregory Croes. He's 26 years old, so a little bit older than the other three. Police picked him up based on information they received from one of the three young men that's already in custody. Now, Croes worked as a local DJ, on this local party boat. This local party boat, called the Tattoo, it basically ran booze cruises, here in Aruba. Last night are we spoke with his boss and he said Croes was a model employee and that he knew one of the two brothers from a local internet cafe where that brother once worked.

Now, the third man who was previously arrested is actually the teenage son of a local judge, here in Aruba. Paul van der Sloot tried to visit his son and wanted to visit his son in jail. Normally, that's no problem for a parent to visit a minor, but prosecutors objected because Van der Sloot is a judge. We've learned that the court did not allow it, but it did let the mother go to visit her 17- year-old son, Joran van der Sloot.

Now, the original three have all been placed in separate facilities to keep them separated. The Dutch teenager and two brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe have all been detained now for more than a week. On Friday, prosecutors had to go to court and argue why they should be allowed to keep them in custody without actually bringing charges against them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE BOB WIT, PRESIDING JUDGE: It's not a matter of evidence; it's a matter of probable cause, like in the United States. It means that we have to look at the statements (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and see the contradictions in the statements. And what I have heard today has convinced me that the investigation is on track and that the necessary to detain the suspects for another eight days to keep it going.

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LAWRENCE: Now, it's been nearly three weeks now since Natalee Holloway disappeared on her senior class trip. Her friends say they last saw her about 1:00 in the morning, leaving a local bar with Van der Soot and the two Kalpoe brothers. Now, her passport and bags were still in her room the very next day, in this same hotel where we're standing now and that's where Natalee's mother has been staying, almost since the very beginning. She says her feelings have started to change, at first being very sad and depressed, now getting a little bit angry and frustrated at the pace of the investigation -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Understandably. All right, Chris Lawrence in Palm Beach, Aruba, thanks so much.

Condoleezza Rice is urging peace from both sides during her trip to the Middle East. Will her visit help in Israel's withdrawal preparations from the Gaza Strip? We'll have a live report later on.

And there's Mark McKay at the U.S. Open -- Mark.

MARK MCKAY, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, can Gore actually carry North Carolina and win this golfing major? The story of Jason Gore, U.S. Open co-leader, ahead on CNN SATURDAY.

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WHITFIELD: At the U.S. Open, it's a three-way tie going into the third round for the world's best golfers. The course at Pinehurst, North Carolina, has been unforgiving. CNN's sport's Mark McKay is live with the latest -- Mark.

MCKAY: Thanks Fredricka. We have another day of golf underway, and barring a playoff, we will have a new U.S. Open champion crowned here at Pinehurst No. 2. Now, many of the world's top golfers have descended upon this very tough course, but who would have thought, at the halfway mark, the world's 818th ranked player would have a share of the lead?

Thirty-one-year-old Jason Gore is part of the front pack at the championship. He's played in one U.S. Open before, back in 1998, but he missed the cut back then. That's not stopping this big guy from dreaming big, after spending the last eight seasons on the nationwide tour. Gore said he's here in Pinehurst to have fun. At the moment, he's having the time of his life.

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JASON GORE, U.S. OPEN TIED FOR LEAD: I really don't have any pressure. I'm the underdog and it's -- it's going to be kind of fun, you know, I mean, this is really -- you know, just saying "you know" a lot, but -- I feel like I should belong, and that's -- you know, I haven't proved it yet with my golf, but, you know, I think deep down inside, everybody out here feels like they belong. And that's the No. 1 thing you got to keep believing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKAY: Gore is believing at the moment, as he heads out this afternoon, as he has a share of the lead going into the third round of the U.S. Open, here at Pinehurst. It has been a strange trip, indeed, Fredricka, for Jason Gore. Before he got here, his car was broken into, a lot of his family's belongings were taken in that robbery. They didn't touch clothes though he says. He can go out and buy a whole new wardrobe if he wins the winner's share, here.

WHITFIELD: Oh wow, he's really indeed, proving to be rather lucky in a lot of ways. So, everyone loves the underdog. Retief Goosen is not one who people would consider an underdog, but he's part of that pack, right, that leading pack? MCKAY: Retief Goosen, yes. Retief Goosen, defending champion. This a guy who goes out there, does his job, he's not the flashyest of players. You won't get amazing quotes from the South African, but he goes out there, does his job, he's probably the proto-type U.S. Open player, a guy that knows how to attack these very tough courses. He's steady. I think you have to be steady and calm to win a championship on a course like this, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Yeah, showing lots of composure, a necessity. All right, Mark McKay, thanks so much, from Pinehurst.

Well, the dialogue is open as Condoleezza Rice tries to nudge Israelis and Palestinians towards peace. We'll have a live report on her trip.

And the debate continues. Should the U.S. shut down its detention camp at Guantanamo Bay? We'll hear from opposing sides straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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WHITFIELD: Bottom of the hour, and here are the latest developments.

A security breach at a major credit processing company puts as many as 40 million credit card accounts at risk for fraud. CardSystems Solutions processes credit card and other payments for banks and merchants. MasterCard says the breached information did not include any Social Security numbers, birth dates or other sensitive personal data.

Major offensives are under way in Iraq. Operation Spear and Operation Dagger are stabbing at insurgents' strong holds north of Baghdad and along the Syrian border. The military says at least 50 of the insurgents were killed when U.S. marines attacked a bunker used as a car bomb factory in Karabila. They also freed four hostages who were being tortured.

And, Iran's presidential elections end in a runoff between former President Asbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and Tehran's mayor. The vote will take place next Friday. The election is not expected to change Iran's theocratic government. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei still has the final word.

In the Middle East, an effort to create a peaceful path to a Gaza withdrawal. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is in Jerusalem trying to do just that. She's holding meetings with Palestinian and Jewish leaders as part of her week-long trip abroad.

CNN's Guy Raz is live from Jerusalem with the very latest. Guy? GUY RAZ, CORRESPONDENT, JERUSALEM: Fredricka, Secretary Rice's visit could be characterized as something as a maintenance appoiment. She hasn't been to the region since last February, and the timing of this visit is not coincidental. Two days after she leaves, the Israel Prime Minister Ariel Sharon will hold bilateral talks with the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, the second time these two leaders are meeting this year.

And, of course, in about eight weeks' time, Israel will begin to evacuate all of its settlers and soldiers from the occupied Gaza strip, what Israel refers to as its Disengagement Plan. Now, that plan is fared at the top of Secertary Rice's agenda. In talks with Palestinian leaders today, and presumably in talks with Israeli officials tomorrow, the secretary has called the Disengagement Plan "the best opportunity to re-energize a U.S.-backed road map for peace."

The plan, of course, that set at a clear timetable on how to bring about an eventual independent Palestinian state, but Palestinian officials have been complaining that the Israeli government hasn't given them enough information about the Gaza plan. They want more coordination. They say essentially that they haven't been provided with maps, with day-after scenarios, with security coordination, what will happen to the homes that have been evacuated, so Secretary Rice is essentially here to listen to both sides and find out what the United States can do to make that evacuation process as seamless as possible. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: All right, Guy Raz, thank you so much for that report from Jerusalem.

Turning now to the War on Terror and the growing controversy over Gitmo. This week, congressional lawmakers debated the treatment of prisoners at the detention center, at the U.S. Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba. Some Democrats and Republicans argue the facility should be shut down, despite contrary opinions.

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SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: This idea of changing, changing, the focus, producing props of chicken dinners and such, seeming to argue this is more a Club Med than a prison -- let's get real. These people have been locked up for three years, no end in sight, and no process to lead us out o of there.

Guantanamo Bay is causing immeasurable damage to our reputation as a defender of democracy and beacon of human rights around the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Meanwhile, the Bush administration is defending its policy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: They're not common car thieves. They are believed to be determined killers. Arguably, no detention facility in the history of warfare has been more transparent or received more scrutiny than Guantanamo.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So, should Gitmo be shut down? We'll ask our guests. Larry Korb is a senior fellow with the Center for American Progress.

LAWRENCE KORB, SR FELLOW, CTR FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Nice to see you.

WHITFIELD: Good to see you.

Frank Gaffney is with the Center for Security Policy in Washington. Good to see you.

FRANK GAFFNEY, CTR FOR SECURITY POLICY: Thank you, nice to be with you.

WHITFIELD: All right, gentlemen, this is certainly an emotional, contentious debate, taking place inside Washington and outside. Larry, you do believe Gitmo should be closed down. Do you believe you're in the minority or majority of public opinion on that?

KORB: Well, I think I'm in an increasing number of people who want to do it. In fact, the administration, now, according to the attorney general, said they're thinking about it. And it's important to keep in mind, nobody's saying release the prisoners. We can take -- put the prisoners in Leavenworth or one of the other military prisons we have. The issue is whether, in fact, Guantanamo is corroding our influence in the world, become a recruiting tool for al Qaeda and other groups that do not wish us well, and undermines the president's goal of spreading democracy in the Middle East.

WHITFIELD: But, Frank, on the other hand, you say it should not be closed down and does that any way, by keeping it open, any way impact the world opinion of the U.S. as a result of a number of complaints and allegations about abuses of detainees at that facility?

GAFFNEY: I don't think we should close this facility down. We've spent about $350 million building it and operating it since we were attacked, on 9/11. We need such a facility, and the point is, I think, were we to shut it down, you would have -- especially if it's combined with these increasing calls for us to cut and run from Iraq -- unmistakably, the impression left with our enemies of weakness that would embolden them, I believe, to attack again and almost certainly, to attack here, something that hasn't happened -- thank god -- for the past almost four years.

We have no place to run to, were we to cut and run from Guantanamo and Iraq, and I don't think it's wise for us to think otherwise.

WHITFIELD: So, Frank, is there any reform that's necessary, while you believe it should be kept open? GAFFNEY: Well, look, I think the question of what's the problem has to be answered. There have clearly been, in the few instances, people who have been subjected to treatment that none of us would like to be subjected to.

On the other hand, there have to be some penalties for being unlawfall combatants against the United States, and I'm not sure that the penalties that have been inflicted thus far on some of these terrorists, murderers, would-be attackers of civilians here and abroad, is in anyway disproportionate to the kinds crimes they've been engaged in and, more to the point, I don't think we're going to dissuade people by either releasing these folks, god forbid, or closing down a facility that, I think, is holding them in a safe and basically very humane fashion.

WHITFIELD: Well, Frank, you ask, what are some of the problems? Let's go over some points at issue.

Number one, there apparently is dispute over whether it's clear at all who some of the detainees are, and, B, whether these detainees are helping to produce the kind of intelligence that the U.S. military was hoping for. Larry, your response to that?

KORB: Well, basically, nobody's saying release the prisoners. We're saying move them to another place because Guantanamo has become a symbol. There's 540 people there; only four have been charged, and our courts have said you didn't do it in the right way. These people may be what Frank says they are, but under our system, you're innocent until you're proven guilty. And this is what's happened.

There have been abuses there, if you read the FBI report, you read the Pentagon's own report about what's happened, and the reason this has happened is because of this guidance that's been given by the secretary of defense and the attorney general, that says, well, you don't have to really follow the Geneva Conventions because these people are not lawful combatants. Therefore, you can do things like sexual harassment. You can terrorize them.

The president said, even though he wouldn't apply the Geneva Conventions, he would go along with the spirit of them. Well, let me tell you, the Geneva Convention says you cannot do anything that would be a personal outrage to a prisoner. We've done that, by our own admission, so that's what...

WHITFIELD: And, so, Larry, it's your point of view that the Geneva Convention should apply. Frank, you say it doesn't need to apply. Why not?

GAFFNEY: Well, not only shouldn't it apply, it would be a very grievous disservice to civilians who the Geneva Convention is also supposed to protect. What makes these people unlawful combatants is they pretend to be civilians. They dress like them. They operate within them, to say nothing about attacking them. Were we to reward people who behave in that fashion, unlawful combatants, we would be encouraging more people to do that, which would only mean that more civilians are going to be caught in the cross-fire of war in the future.

These people are being treated in basically, I think, a very humane main fashion, and arguably better than they are at home. We certainly don't want to reward them or incentivivise them, and the idea that they're innocent until proven guilty, just like they were, perhaps common criminals, American citizens inside the United States, is, I think, fanciful and downright dangerous.

WHITFIELD: Well, Frank, what about the argument that Larry is making, that perhaps if there are abuses taking place at Guantanamo, than that also essentially will embolden terrorists, or enemies, to mistreat U.S. military personnel while abroad if the Geneva Conventions are not applied and if the detainees are not being treated humanely as some of the allegations specify otherwise?

GAFFNEY: Look, let's be real. If American service personnel find themselves in the hands of any of these enemies, they're going to be killed. They're not going to be due process, any treatment -- and it's not because they are moved to treat them badly by Guantanamo. It's because they hate us and they're bent on our destruction, and they believe murdering Americans is fair game, civilian or noncivilian. That's, I think, what we have to keep in focus here...

WHITFIELD: All right, Frank, and Larry...

GAFFNEY: ...that these are people bent on our destruction.

WHITFIELD: Larry, you get the last word cause we're almost out of time.

KORB: OK, well, let me put it -- what we've done there is not the country that many of us fought for and believe in. This is not what Jefferson and Madison and Hamilton stand for. What's happened there is horrible, and it makes -- bring us down to their level and we're supposed to be better than that.

WHITFIELD: Larry Korb, a senior fellow with the Center for American Progress, Frank Gaffney with the Center for Security Policy in Washington. Thanks very much, gentlemen, for joining us this Saturday.

Is the threat of nuclear terrorism increasing? Straight ahead, imagine the nightmare of a nuclear explosion taking place in a city like Los Angeles.

Plus, it's been almost a week since his last public sighting. Did Michael Jackson pop in on a party last night? We'll have details straight ahead.

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WHITFIELD: In our CNN "Security Watch," this Sunday, "CNN PRESENTS" investigates the threat of nuclear terrorism. Could a terrorist group get its hands on nuclear material, build a bomb, smuggle it into the United States and detonate it in a major city? Experts say the answer is yes. CNN's David Mattingly reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A dirty bomb blowing up in the port, threatening surrounding neighborhoods is one terrible possibility. But there's one much worse.

In this scenario, a bomb, similar in size to those used on Japan in World War II comes into the L.A. port in a container, and is loaded onto a truck. The truck drives into downtown Los Angeles, and the bomb is detonated by remote control.

MATTHEW MCKENZIE, NATURAL RECOURSES DEF. COUN: Thirty-two thousand people would die. These people would die as a result of intense blast, high winds, intense heat radiation from the fireball. A further 160,000 people, though, could die as a result of exposure to fallout.

MATTINGLY: Matthew Mckenzie is a physicist working for the Natural Resources Defense Council. Using the same special software that helps the federal government gauge the impact of a nuclear war, he can create a model for a catastrophe.

Just enter the city, the date and the size of the bomb. A simple point-and-click for the ultimate terrorist attack.

MCKENZIE: What the code shows is a hole basically burned and blasted out of the center of Los Angeles.

MATTINGLY (on camera): What about the radiation?

MCKENZIE: The radiation, the fallout plume impacts a much larger area of Los Angeles.

MATTHEW BUNN, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVT: A nuclear bomb is what happened to Hiroshima, where an entire city was obliterated in an instant by a single bomb. That's what we're talking about here. And unfortunately, it does not take a Manhattan Project to make a nuclear bomb. Potentially even a relatively modest cell of reasonably skilled people could put together at least a crude nuclear bomb that would be capable of incinerating the heart of any major city in the world.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): Any city, like Los Angeles, or maybe New York, or Washington, D.C., the cities attacked on September 11th.

BUNN: No one, of course, can reliably calculate the probability of a nuclear terrorist attack in the United States, but I believe it's likely enough that it significantly reduces the life expectancy of everyone who lives and works in downtown Washington, D.C., or New York.

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WHITFIELD: Well, don't miss "CNN PRESENTS: Nuclear Terror." That's tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 5:00 Pacific. Stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security. Michael Jackson, he's a free man, but is he celebrating? And did he make an appearance at a thank you party? Stay tuned for the answer coming up.

Plus -- there's a new thunderbird pilot. Why all the fuss? The Air Force makes history with its latest decision.

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WHITFIELD: Well, it was billed as a thank you to Michael Jackson's fans, but the pop star wasn't there to thank the folks personally. But about 400 people did turn out anyway for a party last night at a California casino near Jackson's Neverland Ranch. Among the partygoer, family members and one of the jurors who cleared Jackson of child molestation on charges Monday. Jackson has not been seen in public since his acquittal.

Meanwhile, Jackson's attorney, Thomas Mesereau, was on national television last night on the very set where Jackson was often the butt of jokes. Mesereau appeared on "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno."

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TOM MESEREAU, MICHAEL JACKSON'S ATTORNEY: Women testified that they stayed in his room, and by the way, his room is a two-story duplex, a huge duplex. That's what we call his room. And women stayed there, mothers stayed there, parents stayed there, kids stayed there, and anytime a child came up to him and said, we want to play in your room, which he has arcade games and that kind of thing, he always said, I want your parents here right now and I want their permission. And the parents were free to stay and we had parents testify who did stay.

So, a lot of this was spin by the prosecution because they wanted to try to convict him through spin. They had nothing to deal with in the courtroom.

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WHITFIELD: Well, Mesereau also praised the jury in Jackson's trial for being courageous.

Other "News Across America" now. Former TYCO CEO Dennis Kozlowski will be sentenced in August. A New York jury found him and a business associate guilty of looting TYCO of hundreds of millions of dollars. Kozlowski and ex-TYCO CFO Mark Schwarz were accused of using company fund as their personal piggy banks. They face up to 30 years in prison.

It's a matter of life and death for Marcus Wesson. Yesterday, a California jury found the Fresno-native guilty of murdering nine of his children in March of 2004. He could face the death penalty. Wesson was also convict of rape and molestation. The sentencing phase begins next Wednesday.

A pilot is in critical, but stable, condition after a corporate helicopter crashed into the New York East River yesterday. A second pilot and six passengers were treated and released. It's the second chopper crash in the river in the river in four days.

And a female first in flight. U.S. Air Force has named its first female pilot to fly with the prestigious Thunderbirds demonstration squadron. Captain Nicole Malachowski will make her public debut with the Thunderbirds next March.

Your weather forecast is coming up. Will the U.S. open have sunny skies or is rain on the way? Plus, a check of the latest headlines.

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WHITFIELD: Still much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY.

In a few moments, "IN THE MONEY." At 2:00 Eastern, our "Legal Round Table" discusses the latest on the trial of a former klansman charged with killing three civil rights' worker, and at 3:00 Eastern, CNN PRESENTS: "In Pursuit of the Perfect Ten." Carol Lin examines the high pressure of youth sport.

First, Susan Lisovicz, with a preview of "IN THE MONEY."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN LISOVICZ: Thanks.

Coming up on "IN THE MONEY," see how deep Uncle Sam's pockets go. We'll find out how generous the U.S. really is about foreign aid.

Plus, spot remover. Learn why Procter & Gamble may have decided some network TV ads aren't worth the money.

And who's your Daddy? On this Father's Day weekend, get some tips on teaching kids how to spend wisely. All that and more, after a quick check of the headlines.

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