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CNN Live Saturday

KKK Member on Trial, 40 Million Vulnerable in Recent Breech of Processing Company, Two Unlikely Leaders at the U.S. Open

Aired June 18, 2005 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WHITFIELD: Ahead this hour, new today -- credit card information belonging to tens of millions of people, stolen by hackers. A look at exactly who may be affected, and what you can do to protect yourself if you're a victim.
Also...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some just want to prove that it's possible. Some want to make money and then there are hacker gangs which are competing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: In depth on credit hackers and why few people are prosecuted.

Hunting insurgents in Iraq, an exclusive look inside Operation Spear as groups target terrorists.

It's 2:00 on the East Coast, 11:00 out west. I'm Fredricka Whitfield at CNN's Global Headquarters in Atlanta.

Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

Those stories in the moment, but first, here the headlines.

Iran's presidential elections end in a runoff between the country's former president and Tehran's mayor. Voting will take place next Friday. The outcome is not expected to change Iran's theocratic government. Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei still has the final word on government matters.

A new round of violence rocked Belfast. Catholics in Northern Ireland attacked police and Protestants in a parade. Bottles, bricks, and several gasoline bombs were hurled by protesters. Police say 30 people were injured before the crowd dispersed.

Michael Jackson was a no-show but 400 people did turn out for a fan thank-you bash last night at a California casino near Jackson's Neverland ranch. Among the party-goers, family members and one of the jurors who cleared Jackson of child molestation charges on Monday.

We begin in Iraq with Operation Spear, near the Syrian border. American Marines are engaged in a raging battle, slugging it out house-to-house, inside the insurgent safe haven city after Karabila. We have just received this exclusive video, pictures you won't see anywhere else. You're looking at U.S. Marines cutting the chains off four hostages. They had chained to a wall and tortured. The military also says a bunker had been serving as a car bomb factory.

CNN's Jane Arraf is exclusively embedded with the Marines in that area and has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN EMBEDDED CORRESPONDENT: A day of intense fighting in the city near the Syrian border, as the Marines rolled further into the city on the second day of this offensive here. They found what they had thought they would encounter on the first day, extensive resistance as they moved into these narrow streets; gunfire from the insurgents as well as mortar rounds, launched.

Some of those mortars were falling around a complex where we were talking to four Iraqis who were held hostage and tortured, some of them for as long as three weeks. Their crime? Two of them were from the Iraqi border police. When we found them, they had just been rescued by Iraqi soldiers and by Marines. They still had the handcuffs on their hands. They also had metal shackles on their feet. They had been tortured, they say, by being hung from the ceiling on a rope in a room that we were shown, hung from there, their heads dipped in a buckets of water and then subject to electric shock. They had the most terrible beatings, the most terrible marks on their backs and in other places. They were so afraid, they said, we couldn't show any parts of their bodies. We couldn't even hear their voices on camera, they said, because they would be recognized and killed.

This was in a part of the city that Marines say was notorious for being a stronghold of insurgents and foreign fighters. In the same complex, car bomb as well as other cars being made ready to be car bombs or suicide bombs they said. Next door, in a girls' school, we saw extensive ammunition and weapons piled up, and on the blackboard, normally used for teaching lessons, appeared to be a lesson on how to build a roadside bomb.

Jane Arraf, CNN, reporting from Karabila.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: A new offensive against insurgents, this one coded Operation Dagger. It got under way this morning in the al Anbar province. That's about 50 miles northwest of Baghdad. A thousand Marines and sailors are on a mission to disrupt insurgent hideouts and sniff out hidden weapons. This is the same area where Marines under covered a huge underground bunker at a rock quarry earlier this month.

A breach of your security in the form of it making the plastic in your wallet not even worth the plastic it's printed on. That's because of a major breach of confidential credit card data. The FBI has launched a criminal probe into how a hacker or hackers accessed the Tucson, Arizona, operations of CardSystems Solutions. It won't say when that happened, but it's believed it could affect some 40 million Visa and Mastercard accounts.

The disclosure comes on the heels of other high-profile losses of bank data including nearly 4 million accounts at City Financial, and about 1 million accounts at Bank of America. CNN's Allan Chernoff joins us New York with some advice for those whose accounts had been compromised. It's information we all need to know. And, Allan, how do you find out if you are a victim?

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, the major card issuing banks say they are going to be contacting their customers by mail and also by telephone to tell them whether or not their cards actually have been illegally accessed. If you're really are worried you can certainly put in a call to your bank, to the card-issuing bank, and try to find out -- although we understand the phone lines are jammed at a number of the major banks. That's understandable because there is the risk here that someone is using your card to go on a shopping spree.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS HOOFNAGLE, EPIC: The big risk here is massive amounts of credit card fraud. So, with someone's credit card number and expiration date and any security codes on the card -- all of which are identifiers that a card processing company would have -- one can create duplicate cards or make purchases over the Internet that are fraudulent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHERNOFF: The best line of defense, though, is to actually check your credit card statements, either from the mail once you get them or if you're impatient you can certainly look online. All of the major companies now allow access online. You can see what has been purchased with your card. You can also even call and find out what the last few major purchases have been.

Now, this is extremely important these days because card issuers will not charge you for any unauthorized purchases, but it's up to you to actually locate those unauthorized transactions. So anybody who simply writing a check every month, not really looking at their bill, they are an easy mark these days. Of course you can also ask the bank for a brand new account number and a new card. They will be happy to cancel your existing card and then send you a new one. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: And sometimes in cases like this when things go wrong, Allan, you actually hear from your bank or maybe the credit card company. But these days you can't trust who exactly is calling you, so how do you verify they are who they say they are?

CHERNOFF: Well, what you want to not give any information over the telephone. So, if somebody is calling you claiming that they're verifying, et cetera, you don't want them to be asking you for your account number or for any personal information. They should be providing it to you, and that's really the way that you would have a confirmation there.

WHITFIELD: All right, we all have to be very smart consumers. Allan Chernoff, thanks so much.

Well, you might be surprised how easy it is for a hacker to steal your most personal information. CNN's Dan Seiberg spoke with an expert hacker who shared his secrets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN SEIBERG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How easy to use are these devices and these tool as that you've got?

GUIDO RUDOLPHI, NETMON, INC.: It's really child's play. (ph)

SIEBERG: Lucky for you and me, Guido Rudolphi is a good guy. A Swiss computer expert, he's dealt with plenty of bad guys in the cyberunderworld and in just a few minutes in midtown Manhattan, with nothing more than a fancy cell phone, he revealed some of the ways we're all vulnerable.

So, virtually anybody with a little bit of know-how and some of these devices could break in to any of these -- how many networks are around us right now?

RUDOLPHI: Right now, seven, eight, 12.

SIEBERG: Wireless signals that could be hacked, though we do need to point out that he never broke in anywhere during his time with us.

How long would it take you to get into an open network if you had the right -- the right laptop and everything.

RUDOLPHI: To get really into it, would be a question of a couple of minutes.

SIEBERG: A couple of minutes?

RUDOLPHI: Yes. But that's not really the crime. The crime is to intercept the data.

SIEBERG: And that data could be anything from your passwords to your credit card numbers to your most private messages, all exchanged over wireless networks that are increasingly popular.

But wireless or wired makes no difference to a determined hacker who can attack from across the street or across the world.

Rudolphi, who's 44, started hacking by poking around phone (ph) networks at a young age, but soon realized he wanted to help companies, not hurt them. To do that, he must keep up with what makes the hackers tick.

RUDOLPHI: Some just want to prove that it's possible. Some want to make money. And then there are like hacker gangs which are competing.

SIEBERG: Hacker gangs? RUDOLPHI: Yes.

SIEBERG: There are competing gangs?

RUDOLPHI: Yes.

SIEBERG: What are they competing for?

RUDOLPHI: Who has hacked more sites, who sold more credit cards, who has made the bigger hack, lost more, in the press, stuff like that.

SIEBERG: So, it's just a game for them.

RUDOLPHI: Yes.

SIEBERG: But it's not all a game. It can be big business. Stealing your identity, for example -- your personal data bought and sold on the internet.

RUDOLPHI: What we have seen is that the Russian mafia likes to set up whole armies of people who then use these credit cards for ordering material.

SIEBERG: The Russian mafia is behind a lot of the identity theft that's going on?

RUDOLPHI: Part of it is done by the Russian mafia, yes.

SIEBERG: So, how is all of this happening? Well, U.S. law enforcement has limited resources but is increasingly working to track down hackers wherever they are.

LARRY JOHNSON, SECRET SERVICE CRIMINAL DIV.: ...Eastern Europe to include Russia, is one of the hot spots. We see that it has a high unemployment rate and very, very technical population.

SIEBERG: Rudolphi's NetMon company works with organizations from international banks to consulting firms to help track down thieves and hackers, but sometimes it only goes so far. How many of these cases that you've worked on have gone to court?

RUDOLPHI: None.

SIEBERG: None?

RUDOLPHI: None.

SIEBERG: Why?

RUDOLPHI: It would be so embarrassing for huge corporations.

SIEBERG: So, instead of going to court, resolving it, being in the public like that, they just make these deals?

RUDOLPHIL: Right. SIEBERG: Hackers, extorting money from certain companies in exchange for not using the valuable data. Even Secret Service says it takes place all the time.

RUDOLPHI: This systems administrator gave way all of the secrets.

SIEBERG: After listening to Rudolphi you might be a little paranoid or nervous. You can be more careful online, starting by securing your wireless connections, installing an internet firewall, and being wary of e-mails promising or asking for anything. But this former hacker, at least, has taken one radical step offline.

RUDOLPHI: Well, you may laugh now, but, I have an address book made out of paper.

SIEBERG: Daniel Sieberg, CNN New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And we'll have much more on the credit card security breach on CNN LIVE SATURDAY at 4:00 eastern with more on what to do if your credit information has been taken over by hackers.

Well, he's accused of taking part in the murder of three civil rights workers 40 years ago. So, what kind of defense might Edgar Ray Killen's attorneys present now that the state has rested its case? We'll have a live report from Mississippi next.

Also, the push for Middle East peace process. What the Bush administration is doing now to help make that happen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Forty-one years after three civil rights workers were ambushed and killed by the Ku Klux Klan, the case is moving closer to a conclusion. The state of Mississippi rested its case today against the accused ringleader in the killings, a one-time preacher and reputed klan member, Edgar Ray Killen. CNN's Catherine Callaway is joining us now from Philadelphia, Mississippi.

CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Fredricka.

That's right, a short day today in court. The judge recessed the court for the weekend, just before noon, giving the jury Father's Day off. They'll be back in court on Monday morning.

Well, this morning, though, the prosecution did rest its case as you said against 80-year-old Edgar Ray Killen. After three days of testimony, the state's last witness was Fannie Lee Chaney. She is mother of one of the slain civil rights workers, James Chaney. She wept on the stand, several times, recalling last day she saw her son alive in 1964, saying that she was forced to leave town after those murders because she feared for her life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANNIE LEE CHANEY, JAMES CHANEY'S MOTHER: They was threatening me so bad, me and my little son, Ben. They told us they was going to put a -- dynamite under the house, blow -- blow us to bits and everything and I better get on away from there because I wasn't going to be that long before they be -- I be put in a hole like James was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CALLAWAY: And after that testimony, the state rested its case, and the defense began theirs. They have called at least three witnesses to the stand already, one a minister and two siblings of Killen, and they're expected to call at least one more witness on Monday morning.

And Fredricka, we could see an end to the case as early as the beginning of next week when closing arguments are expected to begin, four decades later.

WHITFIELD: All right, Catherine. Thanks so much for that update, from Philadelphia, Mississippi.

And, we'll have more on the Killen murder trial in Mississippi in our "Legal Round Table." That's coming up in about 15 minutes here on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

The Bush administration dives back into the Middle East peace process. We'll take you live to jerusalem where U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is meeting with the Palestinian president.

Also, will it be a day of bogeys or birdies at Pinehurst? A live report from the U.S. Open, still ahead on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Ahead of Israel's pullback from Gaza, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is on a mission to the Middle East. She's meeting with Palestinian and Israeli leaders this weekend and the Israeli withdrawal plans from Gaza strip are key part of the discussions.

CNN's Guy Raz is joining us now from Jerusalem. Guy?

GUY RAZ, CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, Secretary Rice engaging in some shuttle diplomacy here in the Middle East. The timing of this trip is not coincidental. Two days after she leaves the Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon will hold bilateral talks with the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, only the second time these two leaders would have met this year.

Of course, in about eight weeks' time, Israel will begin evacuating all of its settlers and soldiers from the Gaza trip after 38 years of occupation there. That plan, known as the Disengagement Plan, has fared right at the top of Secretary Rice's agenda in talks with Palestinian officials today, and is likely to be the focus of discussions tomorrow with Israeli leaders. Now, just a short time ago, the secretary held a news conference with the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas. She explained why she came to the region.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, U.S. SECY. OF STATE: ...president's very good visit to Washington to follow-up with the parties about plans leading to the disengagement of Israeli forces and settlers from the Gaza that will take place shortly. We must all focus on this disengagement as our best chance to re-energize the road map.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAZ: Fredricka, the secretary said coordination of the evacuation from Gaza, between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, is absolutely critical. The past several weeks Palestinian and Israeli officials have been at loggerheads over these negotiations, palestinian officials essentially accusing the Israeli counterparts of not giving them enough information about the plan. Timetables, for example, maps, day-after scenarios, what's going to happen to homes that will be evacuated.

So, Secretary Rice has come to the region, coming here to hear from both sides to find out what the United States can do to ensure that the Gaza plan is carried out as seamlessly as possible. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: All right, Guy, thank you so much.

And this programming note -- U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will talk about her mission to the Middle East on CNN's LATE EDITION with Wolf Blitzer. That's coming up tomorrow at noon Eastern.

It's a murder trial, 41 years in the making. But will the passage of time prove too much for prosecutors looking for a conviction in the killings of three civil rights workers? Our legal eagles weigh in on the historic case.

And what's it like to be at the mercy of a lynch mob? Hear one man's terrifying tale coming up at 4:00 Eastern on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Typecast as the king of ballads in the early 90s, Richar Marx says, it don't mean nothing.

RICHARD MARX, SONGWRITER: My attitude is just to kind of hang in there and outlast the naysayers and the people that want to pigeonhole you.

ANNOUNCER: Last year he won a Grammy for co-writing Luther Vandross's "Dance with My Father," and released his first album in seven years. Marx has also had the platinum touch during the past decade, writing and producing for some of the biggest of the names of pop, country and R&B.

MARX: One of my favorite quotes of all time is, "fail to prepare, prepare to fail," but if you want a career in the music business that will sustain you, you have to prepare and you have to be able to do a lot of different things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: A look at our top stories now.

Operation Spear is underway in Iraq. Marines and sailors have been battling insurgents in the town of Karabila near Iraq's northwestern border. The military says at least 50 insurgent fighters have been killed.

Also Marines rescued four captives who were tortured by insurgents.

A freeway in Pasadena, California, is open again, following the crash of a small plane that clipped a Jeep. Two people were hurt. Early indications point to engine failure.

The mother of a Alabama teen missing in Aruba still vows to find her daughter. This after police made a fourth arrest in connection with Natalee Holloway's disappearance. Authorities in Aruba say Steve Croes is a 26-year-old D.J. on a party boat. They're not saying how Croes is connected to the three young men in custody in connection with the disappearance of Holloway.

The murder trial of a reputed Ku Klux Klansman is in recess until Monday. Prosecutors wrapped up their case today against Edgar Ray Killen. He's accused in the 1964 deaths of three civil rights workers. CNN's Ed Lavandera takes us back in time now to those murders.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a chapter of the civil rights struggle that remains incomplete and still haunts Philadelphia, Mississippi.

It was the 1964 Summer of Freedom. Idealistic young people from around the country had come to the South to register black voters. At the center of command among those Freedom Riders, as they were called, were three young men: two white, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner, and one black, James Chaney.

It was June 21. The three men were heading down the Mississippi back roads to investigate a recently torched church. The FBI says after beating several church members, Ku Klux Klan members set fire to the church, leaving it a charred ruin.

But before they reached the church, the group was pulled off the road by local police. Arrested for speeding, they were tossed into the Neshoba County Jail. Prosecutors say while the three sat in jail, a gang of about 20 Klan members put a plan in motion to kill them. Accused of leading the effort, part time Baptist preacher Edgar Ray Killen.

Some hours later, the three young civil rights workers were released from jail and drove away in their station wagon. Right behind them were two carloads of Klan members.

After a long chase, the mob forced them off the road. Taken from the cars, the three were killed, shot dead at close range: Schwerner, then Goodman, then Chaney. A bulldozer was brought in to bury them. The bodies disappeared.

The state of Mississippi never charged any of the culprits with murder. There was no federal murder charge then, so instead, the men were brought up on civil rights violations with only seven serving minimal prison sentences.

The man considered to be one of the key instigators, Edgar Ray Killen, walked free, an 11-1 hung jury verdict. Although the jury was all white, there was only one holdout who said at the time she could never convict a preacher.

Killen left the courtroom that day a free man, but for more than 30 years groups of civil rights activists, politicians and journalists refused to accept that ruling as the last word. Killen's murder case is the latest in a series of civil rights cases that have been rekindled, looking to right the wrongs of the past.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And that was Ed Lavandera reporting.

We'll have much more on this case tomorrow. We'll talk with author John Blake, he's written about the civil rights era and how children of civil rights leaders have had to deal with their legacy.

That's tomorrow at 4:00 Eastern.

Right now, though, more on the Mississippi Murder Trial. It's just one of the cases we're discussing in our "Legal Roundtable," today. Joining us are New York Criminal defense attorney, Richard Herman.

Good to see you.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good to see you.

WHITFIELD: And civil rights attorney and law professor Avery Friedman.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Hi, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, Avery, what are prosecutors up against trying to try a very old case? FRIEDMAN: Well, they're up against 40 years of delay, but you know what, Fredricka? I think they are likely to secure a conviction, because in addition to the sworn testimony, what we have are a number of live witnesses including a former Meridian, Mississippi, police officer who testified that he had a conversation with Killen and implicated him in the murders.

So, this case has cried out for 40 years to be brought to justice and we are now seeing Mississippi burning to Mississippi changing, and I think symbolically, the most important part of this is that the prosecution team includes none other than the attorney general of the state, Jim Hood.

So, the state has put all its resources behind this prosecution and it is the last great important criminal prosecution of the civil rights era.

WHITFIELD: But, Richard, at the same time do you question whether this will be a fair trial because there is such great pressure to try to end this case, try to solve this case and this man, 80 years old -- say the prosecutors is the way in which to solve this case?

HERMAN: Well, Fred, the defense attorneys will hammer that home in summation to jurors that, you know, this is a horrible, horrible crime, but you've got to look at facts presented in this case against Mr. Killen. They'll do everything they can to, you know, persuade the jury that the passage of time has wrecked people's memories.

I mean, you can't remember what you told someone a week ago, how are you going to remember 30-years-ago conversations with people? And they'll do everything they can to humanize Killen, to try to get, at least, a hung jury on their end.

WHITFIELD: And in fact, the defense says it's going to try and poke holes in this old evidence. Yes, they have evidence and testimony that Killen admits to being a Klan member, but that he never had authorization.

HERMAN: Well, that's...

FRIEDMAN: That's a fact question. I mean, what happens here is that there's no way that Killen can get around the testimony of various police officers who turned state's evidence. The only thing the defense can do is try to poke holes in showing that they went two directions.

These officers, by the way, are former Klan members themselves who wound up turning over and testifying for the prosecution. So, quite honestly that's the only thing Jim McIntyre, the lead defense counsel, can do in this case.

WHITFIELD: Richard, why do you disagree?

HERMAN: Well, maybe these police officers should be sitting there at the defense table along with Killen. You know, that's what happens: These people get threatened to be prosecuted and all of a sudden their recollection is crystal clear, they remember things 100 percent.

They make it fit, Fredricka. It's not right and I think the defense will probably be able to expose these guys.

WHITFIELD: And quickly Richard, you have to wonder, you know, a lot of the testimony, old transcripts and you have to wonder if this hurts or helps a case like this.

HERMAN: Absolutely, Fred. It's a very difficult case. Avery's right, it's a very important case, but, you know, they may have missed the boat on this and too much time may are elapsed to get a -- or maybe we the have the proper decision right now, we're just not going to know.

WHITFIELD: Avery?

FRIEDMAN: Yes. Have faith in the people of Mississippi. This is a strong case. Killen should have been convicted under those federal charges, but we had one juror who held out because shy didn't want to convict a preacher, rather than looking at the evidence. We are 41 years -- in fact the murder took place 41 years ago this coming Tuesday and I think that when they understand what that oath is, the jurors of Mississippi are going to do the right thing.

WHITFIELD: All right, let's change the subject on to the Michael Jackson case. And Richard, I remember you say, he's going down, talking about Michael Jackson in the child molestation case -- charges rather.

Well, the jurors thought otherwise. Hindsight now 20/20, do you feel like the prosecution -- or can you specify where the prosecution went wrong?

HERMAN: Yes. I just wished I had been in the courtroom for the whole trial. You know, I'm relying on reports -- Avery and I are relying on reports from people that are covering this and obviously they're not attorneys and they really are not grasping what's going on in the courtroom.

But I've got to tell you, the prosecutor took this personally. He was not able to look at the evidence objectively. He put too much faith in this woman, the accuser, and this family. Had he looked into their credibility, Fredricka, he should never have brought this case. This jury hated the accuser's mother, did not believe the accuser. The prosecution case was a shambles in the Michael Jackson -- a huge victory for Michael Jackson and for his attorney.

WHITFIELD: Avery you're laughing. Are you in agreement with Richard, on that? And at the same time, you know, have some comments about the whole celebrity influence on the outcome, you know, on the way that the trial carried out and how it influenced the outcome?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I was wrong, too, if you recall.

WHITFIELD: Yes, I do recall. You both said: He was going down, so to speak. FRIEDMAN: All right, I'm telling you. I'm telling you.

But I was wrong for a different reason. I think what I would agree with Richard about is that the conspiracy case blew this thing up. Sneddon and Zonen, the prosecutors, could have let that go. If they would have stuck with molestation and alcohol -- and again, we're Monday morning quarterbacking on this thing -- then they wouldn't had the mother on there.

The mother blew this case up. So, I think the jurors did concede that last police video -- the last piece of evidence during rebuttal, made them -- gave them pause to think.

But ultimately, I am so proud of these jurors who understood their oath as jurors; they considered it carefully. This is best lawyers can look to and quite honestly, justice prevailed because even though they knew Michael did things that were not right, they followed the instructions and they did the right thing.

WHITFIELD: All right. Well, the defendant, in another case we're about to talk to, made famous for other reasons namely because of expensive shower curtains and very lavish parties: Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski. He was found guilty of fraud as well as conspiracy and grand larceny.

Richard, is this another case of the government trying to make an example of these CEOs of big companies who take advantage of their coffers?

HERMAN: Fredricka, this was a state prosecution, not a federal --very significant. The state district attorney, Robert Morgenthal, who's running for office again and who's been in office about 35 years, brought this with all of the resources of the New York City, New York county district attorney's office.

There was a hung jury the first time. He went back, he pressed this case and you know, Kozlowski got on the stand and he gave that Sergeant Schultz defense to the jury that, you know, "I know nothing, I didn't know, I didn't know."

And you know, juries throughout the United States in white-collar cases are not going to accept the "I don't know" by presidents who get paid multiple millions of dollars in salaries. They're just not going to accept it. They're going to hold them responsible and this is state prison, not federal, not Martha Stewart, not a camp -- state prison, very harsh.

WHITFIELD: So, Avery, are you seeing prison time in addition to a fine or one or the other.

FRIEDMAN: Goodness, you are looking at both the fine, Fredricka, and prison time. This was a very, very serious prosecution -- dramatic evidence and you what was stunning? I would have liked to have been in a room when Kozlowski tells his lawyers: I want to testify. Believe me, good criminal defense lawyers rarely let their defendants take the stand and I think because of this ego and power, Kozlowski said: I'm going to convince these jurors that I'm innocent or not guilty, I should say. And man, was he wrong.

WHITFIELD: Well, quickly before I let you go: Even though this being a state case, it has to set some precedent or maybe even influence, somehow, the upcoming Enron case. Do you think -- Richard?

HERMAN: Well, again, Fredricka, it's the theme throughout the United States in these big prosecutions and it's also -- it's going to be overflow on Enron, absolutely. The people in Texas are furious with Enron, believe me.

WHITFIELD: All right. Richard Herman, Avery Friedman, thanks so much, gentlemen. Sorry we're out of time, had a lot to cover, though.

You did a great job.

HERMAN: Gotcha. Nice to see you, Fredricka. Take care.

WHITFIELD: Good to see you, too.

Well, day three of the U.S. Open and it's still anybody's game. The leaders are just minutes away from teeing off. We'll have a live report from Pinehurst, coming up next.

And baseball's successful return to the nation's capital. We'll speak with the hall-of-famer responsible for the team's winning ways in "The Novak Zone."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD:: At the U.S. Open in Pinehurst, North Carolina, round two leader Jason Gore is about to tee off in round three. So far, Pinehurst has been punishing the PGA's greatest talents.

Mark McKay, of CNN sports, is at Pinehurst with round three update -- Hi, Mark.

MARK MCKAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello again, Fredricka.

In the next 15 minutes or so, the two surprise co-leaders of the 105th U.S. Open will be getting their third rounds under way. You mentioned his name earlier, Fredricka: Jason Gore, from Valencia, California and Olin Browne.

These two guys seem to represent golf's casual players. Now, Browne, more so than Gore, seems to have a bit more seasoning to his game. Gore, of course, ranked 818th in the world. Despite turning pro 21 years ago, though, Browne has one two time on the PGA tour. He's serious and unflappable. Perhaps the two most important qualities when trying to tame a monster like Pinehurst course number two.

OLIN BROWNE, PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: Listen, I'll tell you what the toughest hole on this golf course is: at the first hole. Next toughest hole is the second hole, and it goes on like that. There are 18 beasts out here and that is the name of this business. That's the name of the golf course.

JASON GORE, PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: I feel like I should belong and that's, you know -- I haven't proved it yet with my golf, but I think deep down inside, everybody out here feels like they belong. And that's the number one thing you've got to keep believing.

MCKAY: Boy, you've got to like that guy's enthusiasm, huh?

In keeping with theme that we've seen all week long here at Pinehurst number two, the leaders are the ones who have yet to tee off. It includes a group that includes Retief Goosen, Fredricka, the defending U.S. Open champion.

WHITFIELD:: Uh, oh. Yes. Well, I'm sure he's going to have quite the crowd following him, as well.

All right. Thanks, Mark.

WHITFIELD:: Well, from the golf greens to the baseball diamond. We'll go inside "The Novak Zone" with the manager of the Washington Nationals, Frank Robinson.

Find out what he would like to change about the nation's pastime.

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WHIFTIELD: He's widely regarded as one of best players, ever, in Major League Baseball. Frank Robinson is now manager of baseball's biggest surprise team and leading their division, the Washington Nationals.

Bob Novak went to the ballpark for this week's edition of "The Novak Zone."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT NOVAK, HOST, "NOVAK ZONE" (voice-over): Welcome to the "Novak Zone." We're on the field at RFK Stadium in Washington, D.C. talking to the manager of the new Washington Nationals, all-time baseball great, member of the Hall of Fame, Frank Robinson.

Mr. Robinson, you were -- you spent the last couple of years playing in Montreal and San Juan, Puerto Rico. What's it like to be in Washington now?

FRANK ROBINSON, MANAGER, WASHINGTON NATIONALS: Bob, it's great. It's just tremendous. I can't really describe to you how I feel, how the people in this organization, especially the players, feel about being here with the tremendous crowd of support we're getting at the ballparks every ball game and the enthusiasm of the fan has been tremendous. You know, when, we leave the ballpark, out on the streets people are hollering at us and say, we're glad to have you in Washington. Happy you're here. You're playing great. NOVAK: Frank, you'll be 70-years-old in August. You're a mere boy. I'm 74-years-old and still working. What is it like at that age to deal with these -- these young millionaires that are wearing baseball uniforms?

ROBINSON: Well, with this group here, it's good. It's great. We have a bunch of individuals here that are team-oriented and they want to do what's best for the team. Individually, they could care less and they're going out here and I think the record speaks for that. They're doing what they have to do to help the ball club win and that makes it much easier on me to be able to you know, control them or whatever, to get them to play because -- it's almost hands off, because they understand what they have to do, and how they have to go about doing it.

NOVAK: Frank, when you were a young player starting out, I think almost all of the players were American-born. Now, you've got so many foreign-born players, particularly on the Nationals, is that make it -- how does that work in the clubhouse when the first language of a lot of players isn't even English?

ROBINSON: Well, it's no problem in the clubhouse. The players get along just great. What it does, though, it creates a kind of a language barrier when the Latin players, and the Japanese players, and we have Korean players, really don't understand what you're trying to convey to them at all times in English, and it's very difficult for them. Even with a translator, something gets -- is missing in the translation. And you have -- I have difficulty, you know, communicating with them sometimes when I have a problem with them or whatever because they go by your voice tone, the way you use your hands, or don't use them, sometimes they take that wrong, the look on my face, whatever.

And sometimes phrases mean something differently in their language than in English and they take that as something that, you know is wrong. So, it's a little difficult sometimes getting -- when you want to communicate with the players getting through to them and getting them to understand what you're saying.

NOVAK: Frank Robinson, you were a complete ballplayer, triple crown winner, a fabulous hitter. Is there any of the young players that you see around the National League or the American League, for that matter, since we have interleague play, that reminds you of yourself when you were young?

ROBINSON: No, no, thank goodness. There's only one Frank Robinson. It wouldn't be fair, and I never try to, you know, compare, because it's not fair, but there's a lot of good players around. I hear all the time taht the players are not as good as they used to be back in the day, but there are an awful lot of good players today as there was when I was playing.

NOVAK: You were managing both the National and the American League and there's a lot of extra moving parts in the National League, double switches and all kinds of stuff. Is it tougher, does it take more concentration, to manage in the National League than the American League?

ROBINSON: It does. That's exactly what it takes, Robert. There is strategy in both leagues a manager can use with his lineup. A lot of people say, in the American League, there's no strategy involved. But it is, if you want to apply it.

NOVAK: You know, a lot of people say baseball's no longer the national pastime. People prefer stock car racing or football year round. But I look in the paper every morning and I see 30,000, 40,000 50,000 people, not just once a week, but every night -- do you think baseball is still popular with the ordinary people?

ROBINSON: I think it's very popular, but the other sports and things are other outlets, so people going into that, are looking at that, are supporting that. But, I still think baseball is very, very popular because we keep attendance records each year in baseball. So, someone must be coming out here and spending their money. So it's just that it's not the only sport as we used to think of it as. It has competition from the other sports and that's good because they give people choices. But hBaseball's still very popular, and a very good game. I just want people to know, it is an outstanding game.

NOVAK: And now the big question for Frank Robinson, Hall of Famer and manager of the Washington Nationals -- Frank Robinson, if you had one change to make if in the game of baseball, what would it be?

ROBINSON: Oh, I think I'd take out arbitration. I would remove arbitration because, you know, the management can't win in arbitration. And the players, they get upside when they go to arbitration and don't win as -- in other words, they don't get their price but they still get a big raise. So I would take it out of there because the people that are usually making those decisions are not baseball people, and they have not decided on what a guy -- really, how valuable he is to a ball club. His numbers may be inflated. So, the one thing I would take out would be arbitration.

NOVAK: Frank Robinson, you're off to a great start. All of us here in Washington are rooting for you. Thank you for being with us, and thank you for being in "The Novak Zone."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: And you can see more of Bob Novak and the rest of the "Capital Gang," tonight at 7:00 Eastern. Tonight's topic is the Gitmo controversy.

Still much more ahead on CNN SATURDAY. At the top of the hour, "CNN PRESENTS." Today, a look at the high-stress, high-performance world of gymnastics, "In Search of the Perfect 10."

At 4:00 Eastern, CNN LIVE SATURDAY, more on the security breach affecting up to 40 million credit card accounts.

At 5:00 Eastern, "People in the News," profiling U.S. Supreme court Chief Justice William Rehnquist. That and a look at top stories right after this.

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