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CNN Live Saturday

Bombings in Egypt Kill More Than 80; Man Shot by London Police Not Connected to Attacks; Samantha Runnion's Mother Makes Emotional Statement at Killer's Sentencing; New Yorkers Respond to Bag Search Policy; Interview About Radical Terrorists

Aired July 23, 2005 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LISA SYLVESTER, HOST: Terror strike in Egypt. A series of deadly bombings explode at a popular tourist resort. We're live with the unfolding details.
Also, the search for answers in London. And new developments to tell you.

Plus, who are the terrorists? And why do they hate the west so much? It's a question we'll try to answer this hour.

Also this hour, a dangerous heat wave. We'll show you the areas affected. Plus, tips for beating the heat.

Hello, I'm Lisa Sylvester at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. Those stories in the hour ahead. But first, headlines now in the news.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is calling on Israel not to seal off Gaza once Israeli troops and settlers are pulled out of the territory. Rice held talks earlier today in the West Bank with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. Israel plans to start withdrawing from Gaza and parts of the West Bank next month.

In Japan, a strong earthquake rattles the country's capital. Today's magnitude 6.1 quake southeast of Tokyo left more than two dozen people injured. It also interrupted airline and train services.

On Florida's east coast, the Space Shuttle Discovery's crew members are getting ready to suit up for another attempt at a launch on Tuesday. Just over a week ago, NASA scrubbed a planned launch because of a fuel sensor problem.

Up first this hour, chaos and carnage in Egypt after deadly terrorist attacks at a Red Sea resort area. Dozens of people were killed when three bombs ripped through hotels and shopping areas in Sharm El-Sheikh. Hundreds more were injured.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At first, I didn't even think. I didn't even think it was a bomb. I just thought it was some sort of explosion. Or some sort of crash. But it was -- it was the -- the sky was lit up. It was terrible, terrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SYLVESTER: The latest now from CNN's John Vause, who joins us by phone in Sharm El-Sheikh. John, what can you tell us?

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lisa, the search here at the Ghazala Hotel continues. But really now, it seems to be focusing on trying to recover bodies and also, sifting through this debris and looking for answers as to who, in fact, may have carried out these attacks here early this morning.

Egypt's interior minister says that these attacks here were similar to ones which were carried out in the Taba resort town, about 150 miles north of here in October last year. Simultaneous car bombings. Those attacks left more than 30 people dead.

Now these attacks here, a car bombing into this hotel. At the same time, another car bomb at a market, the Old Market, targeting a coffee shop, leaving 17 Egyptians dead. Around the same time, a third explosion. A bag full of explosives on a beachside boardwalk, leaving as many as six foreign tourists dead in that blast.

Now, this attack does not seem to be focused on western targets. For example, there's a Hilton hotel, an American-owned Hilton hotel just down the road. Across from the Ghazala Hotel is the Mombasa resort, European owned. But what looks like is happening here is that these attacks were focused on Egyptian targets.

For example, the Egyptian coffee shop, where so many Egyptian workers were killed. And this hotel, as well, Egyptian-owned, believed to be Egyptian-owned. And one other point, today, the 23rd of July, is Egypt's national day, the day they celebrate the Nasserist revolution -- Lisa.

SYLVESTER: Thank you very much. That was John Vause joining us.

Now, we have some breaking news to pass along. We have information from Nic Robertson in London regarding the shooting by London authorities on Friday of a man who was seen running in the metro station there.

Nic, what can you tell us about this? There's some new information coming out of Scotland Yard?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's correct, Lisa. The police are now saying that the man who was shot dead on Friday morning was not connected with the bombing attempts on -- the day before, on July the -- Thursday, July the 21st.

They're saying that any loss of life is regrettable. They can say, though, they're still only going through the formal identification process right now. They can say that he is not connected with the attempted bombings the day before.

Until this moment, the police have said that they couldn't know that for certain. Indeed, until now, they had said that he had left a building that was under police surveillance. The police had followed him. They had challenged him as he entered the tube station. He had jumped a ticket barrier, run onto the train.

Eyewitnesses then said that three policeman, one of whom was carrying a handgun. As the man tripped and fell to the floor, the police shot the man. Variously, the reports go from three to six shots were heard.

But what we are hearing from the police now this is -- this is the first time that they've been able to clarify this. This will certainly -- this will certainly add fuel to the critics, particularly within the local Muslim community yesterday, who said, why was this man shot and killed? Perhaps, why wasn't she shot and brought down so that he could be brought into custody?

What the police are telling us now is that they can confirm that this man was not connected with those attempted bombings the day before, Lisa.

SYLVESTER: Nic, in light of this new information, how will this change the policy of Scotland Yard, this shoot to kill, if, given the situation, if it happens again? Are they reviewing their policy, Nic?

ROBERTSON: Well, the police have very clear guidelines on apprehending people, and those guidelines are that enough force as is necessary to secure an arrest, given the conditions of those arrests. So there is a degree of ambiguity there.

The police here do not generally carry firearms. They do not generally shoot people in the process of trying to arrest them.

What is understood is that the police have been talking with other governments around the world about how to tackle suicide bombers. They've been talking with the Russian government, the Israeli government, the U.S. government, to get advice from their security forces personnel about how to deal with the potential for suicide bombers.

And within that, they are aware that there is the potential of the need to shoot to kill that they've been developing, that police say they've been developing new techniques and new technologies to deal with the possibility of suicide bombers. They say there has been no change in policy that led to the shooting of this man yesterday.

And they've apologized. They apologized at the time for the death of this man. Now, however, they're saying very clearly that his killing was not -- that he was not a suspect, not involved with, in any way, the attempted bombings the day before.

So their policy, the police say, hasn't changed. But they do say that they've been studying other techniques and methods to -- in the light of the fact that there's a potential for suicide bombers now to be on streets of London, from what they have seen of the recent bombings here.

SYLVESTER: OK, thank you very much. Nic Robertson joining us from London.

And stay with CNN as we continue to update this story throughout the day.

More and more Americans fear the war in Iraq is undermining efforts to fight terrorism.

A Pew Research Center poll, taken after the first round of London bombings, found 47 percent of Americans believe the war is hurting the fight against terrorism. That's the highest number to say that, since the war began. Forty-five percent of Americans believe the Iraq war is increasing the risk of terrorism in this country. Still, more than half of those polled favor staying in Iraq until the country is stable.

Stay with CNN, because coming up in just a few minutes, we're going to take a closer look at who the terrorists are, why do they attack innocent people, and why they hate the west so much. It's a "CNN Security Watch." Stay with us for that.

It's another day of searing heat across much of the country. Many cities in the desert southwest Texas and parts of the Midwest are baking under triple digit temperatures.

Forecasters warn it will be dangerously hot and humid in Chicago. Temperatures tomorrow are expected to climb above 100. City officials in Phoenix are setting up a cooling site today in the hopes of preventing more heat-related death. So far, at least 21 people have died from the blistering heat.

How hot is it out there? Well, let's turn to our meteorologist, Rob Marciano.

Rob, what can you tell us?

(WEATHER REPORT)

SYLVESTER: We certainly see with these temperatures, 108 in St. Louis, certainly not a very pleasant situation. Rob, thank you very much.

ROB MARCIANO, CNN METEOROLOGIST: You bet.

SYLVESTER: Well, there are several things you can do to keep your cool in the heat. Slow down. Be careful not to overexert yourself. Try to stay indoors. And if you go outside, wear lightweight, light colored clothing.

It's also a good idea to drink lots of water. Avoid alcohol and caffeine. And eat small meals with less protein.

Coping with the record heat, how are people in many parts of the U.S. dealing with the scorching weather? We'll have a live report, straight ahead.

And terror in London and now Egypt. Why do these terrorists hate and how are they transformed into killers?

Plus... (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, SAMANTHA RUNNION'S MOTHER: I want you to disappear into the abyss of a lifetime in prison where no one will remember you, no one will pray for you and no one will care when you die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SYLVESTER: One mother's emotional outburst as her daughter's killer learns his fate. CNN LIVE SATURDAY continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SYLVESTER: Welcome back to CNN LIVE SATURDAY. I'm Lisa Sylvester. Let's check a few other stories making news across America today.

A manhunt is under way across the Pacific Northwest for convicted sex offender John Rollins Tuggle. The 37-year-old is suspected of stabbing his own daughter. Police say the 12-year-old girl was found tied up on a mountain road in Idaho and had been stabbed several times. She remains hospitalized in serious condition.

A high-speed chase in North Carolina is captured on a police car's dashboard camera. The chase ended when the suspect lost control of the car. Incredibly, a woman and her 5-year-old daughter who were in the back seat were not hurt. Authorities have taken the teenage driver into custody.

A grass fire, fanned by flames, comes within yards of several homes north of Golden, Colorado. As crews battle the blaze, some residents use their garden hoses to douse the flames. Investigators believe fireworks may be to blame

The FBI is taking a larger role in the search for Natalee Holloway. Aruban authorities, still stumped in the case, are allowing the FBI to review suspect interviews, tip sheets and other relevant materials. Holloway vanished more than seven weeks ago. No formal charges have been filed in the case.

Three years ago this month, 5-year-old Samantha Runnion was kidnapped, sexually assaulted and murdered. Now the man convicted of those crimes has been sentenced to death. At Friday's sentencing, Alejandro Avila heard from his victim's mother.

Donna Tetreault has more from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RUNNION: I have written and rewritten what I would say to the man who killed Samantha. And you better pay attention! Because I never want to address you again. You don't deserve a place in my family's history. And so I want you to live.

DONNA TETREAULT, CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): But Alejandro Avila is on his way to Death Row. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You shall suffer the death penalty. Said penalty shall be inflicted within the walls of the state prison at San Quentin, California.

TETREAULT: Sentenced to death for the abduction, brutal rape and murder of 5-year-old Samantha Runnion in the summer of 2002. Samantha was outside playing with her friend, Sarah Anh (ph), when Avila nabbed her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said, help, tell my grandma. And I did.

TETREAULT: Kicking and screaming, she disappeared. The next day, Samantha's body was found in a remote area 50 miles from home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my god, I found a dead body! Please hurry! I'm so scared right now! It was a little kid!

RUNNION: And she fought, and I know she fought you. I know she looked at you with those amazing brown eyes, and you still wanted to kill her.

TETREAULT: Samantha's fight sealed Avila's fate. His DNA under her fingernails and DNA, likely from Samantha's tear drops, inside his car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragedy brings us together, yes.

TETREAULT: More than 4,000 people attended Samantha's funeral.

RUNNION: She wanted to be a dancer and a teacher and a mother. She loved so many things. She had so much passion for life. I'll never know what she would have become.

TETREAULT: What Erin Runnion has become isn't anything she could have ever fathomed. Now she dedicates her life to saving other children from sexual predators, from people like Alejandro Avila.

RUNNION: You knew it was wrong and you chose not to think about it. Well, now you have a lot of time to think about it! Don't waste it! Write it down! So that the rest of us can figure out how to stop you people!

TETREAULT: Donna Tetreault, for CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Coming up tonight at 10 Eastern, we'll have the full, unedited testimony of Erin Runnion. We'll also have some tips to help you keep your children safe.

Tightened security and random searches, all part of the latest security effort. How are New York's passengers reacting to these changes? We'll have a live report ahead on CNN LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SYLVESTER: This just in. We have new video to bring you from Sharm El-Sheikh, a tourist region in Egypt, where three bombs ripped through some of the territory there. We're going to take a look at video in just a moment where dozens of people were killed.

The bombs went off. They ripped through a hotel area, a shopping area, striking in the heart, about 1 a.m. in the morning, when many people were just beginning to gather for -- at cafes, throughout the evening and such. We're going to listen in now to some of this video.

Dozens of people were killed. And hundreds more were injured. This video was shot by an amateur. Actually, a tourist who happened to be in the area at the time. And we can only imagine what it must have been like, the chaos.

You can hear some more of the video, people running in that video that we just saw.

And as terrorists strike fear into the hearts of Londoners, security concerns have spread across the Atlantic. Today is day two of random subway searches in New York.

CNN's Susan Lisovicz is with us now from Atlantic Street Station -- Susan.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lisa.

Well, Metropolitan Transit Authority officials tell us so far there have been zero arrests and very few complaints as day two of the random bag searches throughout the New York City subway system continues.

Here at the Atlantic -- Atlantic Avenue station, things are predictably quiet on noon, on a hot summer day. But this is normally one of the busiest stops in the entire New York City subway system, because this is where -- one of the places where one of the New York City subways intersect with the Long Island Railroad. And earlier today, we saw a dozen heavily armed National Guardsmen arrive to, in the words of one, help keep commuters safe.

Commuters we've talked to say they're resigned to these changes, as distracting, and as uncomfortable as they may be. Let's talk to one of them right now, Will Fain, who has been living in New York City for the last year.

Thanks for joining us. Can you tell me, Will, is this the first time you've seen these kind of signs that we're in a heightened state of alert?

WILL FAIN, COMMUTER: Yes, it's the first time I can remember. I mean, I've seen things in airports, but nothing, you know, throughout the entire city.

LISOVICZ: What have you seen so far?

FAIN: Well, there's a guy with an assault rifle just down the stairs there. He didn't -- I didn't see him checking any bags. But, you know, there are guys planted around, I guess.

LISOVICZ: How do you feel about these random bag searches? Do you think that they're helpful?

FAIN: Not particularly. I read somewhere that there are 4.5 million people that ride the subways every weekday, and I just can't imagine that random bag searches, you know, on a couple hundred people every stop is going to make that much of a difference.

LISOVICZ: The fact that you can refuse and then leave?

FAIN: Yes, I mean, exactly. Like anyone who has even -- you know, someone with drugs or anything like that, can just turn around and go home.

LISOVICZ: Do you feel that this is better than nothing or...

FAIN: I feel like it's really kind of unhelpful. I think that people who ride the subway without people reminding them every day that there's someone trying to bomb us, I don't think that's really helpful. Going before -- before these random bag searches, I wasn't really thinking about it, but now, every time I see them...

LISOVICZ: Will Fain, who has not been searched so far.

FAIN: Yes.

LISOVICZ: You're wearing a backpack.

A lot of people are telling us, Lisa, that they are allowing a few extra minutes just in case that does happen.

And on Monday, by the way, the New Jersey Transit system says it, too, will begin random searches for the tens of thousands of commuters who travel into New York every day. The acting governor of New -- of New Jersey, Richard Codey, says it is a new act of vigilance that's necessary, given the situation that we've seen in London earlier this month.

Back to you.

SYLVESTER: OK, Susan, thanks for that report in New York. Thank you very much.

Well, the wave of attacks in Egypt and London have many people wondering who are the terrorists? And why do they hate so much? I'll speak with two experts straight ahead.

Plus, it's a scorcher out there. Record-breaking heat. How some people are coping, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SYLVESTER: Now in the news, two suicide car bombings and a third explosive device went off at an Egyptian resort, killing more than 80 people and wounding more than 200. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has already toured the blast area and met with survivors. Egypt had been operating under heightened security in recent days because of the bombings and attempted bombings in London. An update on the police probe there just ahead

Police detained at least one person in connection with a blast that damaged a bank in northwestern Spain. No injuries or claims of responsibility have been reported. The city expects to receive thousands of Catholic pilgrims in a festival Monday.

Americans east of the Mississippi are now sharing the weather woes of the west. A heat wave responsible for record highs in places like Phoenix, Denver and Las Vegas, is also blamed for several deaths in the west. Authorities advise residents to stay cool. Some tips on how to beat the heat, ahead in a few moments.

Updating the latest on the London bombings. Scotland Yard now says the man they shot and killed on the Underground yesterday was not -- not -- connected to the attempted terrorist bombings Thursday. Police say they regret the shooting.

Authorities are also questioning two men arrested yesterday in connection with Thursday's failed bombings attempts. The two were picked up in Stockwell, south of London, hours after police released these photographs of four men wanted for questioning. Police asked Londoners to use their mobile phones to help track down the wanted men.

What transforms a sports-loving teen into a jihadist killer? CNN's senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, explores how the Internet has become the lifeblood of terrorists. And he looks at why young men drawn into a suicide pact with Islamic extremists.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Internet images like these, of Saudi warriors announcing their intent to kill, may well have helped transform the four London bombers from sports-loving young Muslims into killers.

MARC SAGEMAN, FORMER CIA OFFICER: There really is no need of a mastermind, because all the guidance and all the strategy and tactics are already are on the Internet and those people can download what's already on the Internet.

ROBERTSON: Investigators will be looking for that kind of material on the computers that were among the first items seized at the Hamara community center in Leeds. That's where three of the four men in the terror cell are known to have met.

Mohammad Saddiq Khan, the oldest, is believed to have befriended sports-loving Shahzad Tanweer and Hassib Hussain by having them join him in weight-training classes. But what happened to transform them into bombers?

SAGEMAN: The three of them -- that core group, the one of Pakistani descent, came together over a period of about a year and a half and seemed to have mutually escalated their devotion to Islam.

ROBERTSON: At the time, videos of jihadists fighting in Bosnia and Chechnya were circulating in their close-knit Muslim community, along with manuals on the Internet, on how to carry out attacks.

LORD AHMED, BRITISH PARLIAMENT MEMBER: There's been identity crisis within these young people who have been looking out for the answers.

ROBERTSON: Lord Ahmad of Rotherham and other British Muslim leaders are under pressure from the prime minister to silence extremist Muslim clerics, whom the British government says radicalize Muslim youth.

AHMED: These young people have been involved with some violent ideology, political ideology which has been taught, either in this country or abroad.

ROBERTSON: Khan and Tanweir went to Pakistan last year and British investigators want to know more about who they met and what they did. But Sageman suggests the bombers may already have been committed to terror before they ever went there.

SAGEMAN: Those people motivate each other. They don't really need to go to Pakistan or to any training camp.

ROBERTSON (on camera): British investigators are still far from drawing their own conclusions. But the prospect a terror cell could create, educate and radicalize itself without ever leaving home, compounds concerns that just weeks before the bombing, the country's terror threat level was lowered.

Nic Robertson, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Radical Islamic terrorism is nothing new, but more people are asking questions about the source of the hatred that pits the jihadists against much of the civilized world, in particular, the West. We're going to explore that now with Akbar Ahmed, chairman of the Islamic Studies and professor of international relations at American University and CNN Military Intelligence Analyst Ken Robinson.

Hello, gentlemen. Thanks for joining us.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Hi there, Lisa .

AKBAR AHMED, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Hello.

SYLVESTER: Akbar what is the driving force behind this hate directed at the West? Is it true that it's some kind of identity crisis that they're suffering from?

AHMED: Lisa, several factors combine. I would say they're internal factors, internal to the Muslim world: The generally-poor standard of education; the generally-poor leadership; the sense of being under siege; the sense of anger and the sense of hatred internally.

Then you external factors; factors like the Palestinian issue, the Kashmir issue, the Chechen issue, not quite resolved and not really getting anywhere. And all these, in a sense, combine to create this explosive mix. We're seeing after the Egyptian terrorist strikes, that it truly is global and there's a lot of hatred, a lot of anger around. And as a Muslim, I find it completely unacceptable and this death and destruction must be challenged.

SYLVESTER: Ken, do you agree with this assessment; that this idea, young people are caught between two cultures, that there's a poor standard of education, that they feel somehow that they are under siege because of the Palestinian crisis? Do you collect all of this information and is that what gives rise to terrorism?

ROBINSON: It is what gives rise to the current situation. There's a perceived lack of extreme disrespect between East and West in this regard. The Muslim streak -- Islamic fundamentalists believe that the West culture is encroaching on their culture.

This group of extremists is a very narrow group of Salafists. They have an ideology. Salafi means the true believers and they believe that many Muslims themselves are at fault for staying with the true tenets of Islam as they believe them. It's a very narrow interpretation.

SYLVESTER: Ken, a follow up: How many Muslims subscribe to this extreme philosophy known as Salafi? Is it just a very small minority that we're talking about?

ROBINSON: Well, this form of interpretation is the predominant form of Islam within the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and then the kingdom proselytizes it by funding madrasas, these religious schools, all over the world.

And these schools teach this narrow version and they preach hate. And they fund it in areas where the central governments can't provide services for their populations. So, mothers who want to feed their children and educate them, send them to these schools because they're the only schools available.

SYLVESTER: Akbar, when the terrorists attack, what is the motivation? Is it more to send a message to the West or is it trying to recruit more followers?

AHMED: I think a bit of both, Lisa, in this particular case, because these men have been misguided. They're doing acts of violence motivated by this intense hatred. It's a kind of breakdown; a breakdown of a moral structure, a political structure and administrative structure.

Remember that in their killing spree, they're also killing a lot of Muslims. So, it makes absolutely no sense. In London -- we had in Egypt just a few hours ago. So, therefore, we need to be asking, how do they work within the context of their own culture? And Ken is right, these are marginal groups. Thankfully, they're not representative of the majority of the Muslims. The danger, Lisa, is: How is the vast majority of the Muslim world to deal with these particular groups?

SYLVESTER: So, Ken, given what's been said, where the most fertile breeding ground: Europe or the Middle East?

AHMED: It is now global. I -- when I wrote this book, "Islam Under Siege" -- and a lot of the discussion is based on that particular book -- just recently, I was talking about a global response in the world of Islam and this is exactly what we're seeing: London one day, Egypt the next day.

It may happen anywhere, the day after tomorrow. So, it is now global. It has infected the Muslim community. It's a global community: 1.3 billion people living in 57 states. Many of them living in the United States and United Kingdom and so on. So, we really have to tackle this, look at it, analyze it as a global phenomenon.

SYLVESTER: Ken, we only have about 30 seconds before the break, but really quickly, second, third-generation Muslims, they appear in some cases to be even more radicalized then the first-generation Muslims living in Europe. Why are we seeing that?

ROBINSON: It's the 21st century. Information moves faster. As Nic Robertson reported in his report, there's a virtual Caliphates going on right now in perception. They have distance-learning through promulgating their ideas, their hate, on the Internet.

How their how-to cookbooks -- it's much simpler, it's easy to train, it's easier to isolate. We don't have a capital to bomb. We don't have a leader to arrest. The virtual world is very tough when it comes to dealing with this global phenomenon.

SYLVESTER: OK. We're going to ask both of you gentlemen to stand by. We're going to ask you more questions about this very intriguing subject on the other side of the break.

So, why do these men target innocent civilians? We'll talk about that and more as we continue this discussion.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SYLVESTER: Welcome back to CNN SATURDAY. I'm Lisa Sylvester. We're discussing the jihadist movement and its festering hate for the West. Our guests are Akbar Ahmed, chair of Islamic studies at American University studies and CNN Military Intelligence Analyst Ken Robinson. Ken, the bombings in London and in Egypt targeted civilians. So, why do these terrorists go after innocent people?

ROBINSON: Well, they don't consider them to be innocent people. This jihadist movement is a zero-sum-gain movement. They believe that who all who do not ascribe to their ideology are also guilty. They really want to take their countries back to the 13th century. They want to move backward in time, not forward in time.

SYLVESTER: But, Ken, why have their motivations for spouting hate -- don't they run the risk by attacking civilians, of alienating the general public instead of winning support for their causes?

ROBINSON: Well, really, there's a strategy at work here. And part of it is, if there's a backlash against the Muslim community, because of these extremists, that backlash will only help their terrorism recruiting and retention.

In Egypt, as an example, their targets are economic. They want to hurt the government of Egypt and its ability to maintain control. And to do that, they deny the central government money. And to do that, they kill the tourism industry. These tactics are very effective. They majors of effectiveness in their long-term goal, which is to divide and conquer.

SYLVESTER: Akbar, do you agree with what Ken is saying; this idea there is no such thing as an innocent civilian?

AHMED: Yes, and again, I go back to what motivates this hatred. I would go further back to their education. I would say that the syllabi in the schools right now in the Muslim world; the teacher's training programs really have to be radically reformed.

For example, why can't we be teaching these same youngsters about Rumi, the great mystic poet; about love and compassion and tolerance and acceptance? You know, for example that Rumi is the number-one selling poet in the United States of America. That's a remarkable fact that Americans have reached out to Rumi.

Why can't Muslim youth be reading Rumi, rather than reading some preacher who's talking about hatred and blowing themselves up and causing death and destruction all around? So, these are some challenges that Muslim leaders must face up to and begin the process of reform.

SYLVESTER: Ken, we -- you know, we often hear this term: Al Qaeda-connected. How do these groups communicate with one another? You mentioned the Internet, for instance, earlier. Is this a loose association or is this somehow a top-down organization that we're talking about?

ROBINSON: It's very loose. There were a core group of people that were trained. They were sent out to approximately 60 countries. But now they have what they call a leaderless resistance. There's no person at the very top. What they have is they put out their ideas, they put out their beliefs on the Internet and they have small cells that form and take up ideas and then take up jihadist operations.

And they don't have to have a command and control structure. They don't have to have a general guiding it from a central location. This is what makes it so hard. So, if we're to confront it, if the West is to succeed, what they must look at is confronting the idea, confronting the ideology, not these individual cells. We have to take out the oxygen that fans their flame and to do that, we need to go after hopelessness.

SYLVESTER: OK. Thank you very much, both Ken Robinson and Akbar Ahmed, for joining us. We appreciate your time today.

AHMED: Thank you, Lisa.

ROBINSON: Thank you.

SYLVESTER: And stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security.

Record-high temperatures across the nation: Ahead, how people are coping with the scorching heat.

Plus, next time your kids act up in public, be thankful it wasn't at the White House and on national TV. We'll take a lock at some famous kids who have stolen the spotlight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SYLVESTER: Expect most of the Midwest and East to swelter this weekend. The heat that hit record highs in Denver two days ago is spreading to Chicago. And here in Atlanta, we could reach 95 degrees tomorrow. Catherine Callaway is live in Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta. So, Catherine, how are people coping with the heat out there?

CATHERINE CALLAWAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is the place to be on a day like this. This weekend is supposed to be the hottest so far this year here in Atlanta. We're well on our way for sure, but on a hot day like this, a lot of people head to Centennial Park and the reason is because of the water fountains.

We'll show you some video now of some people having fun in those water fountains. Kids and adults able to cool off and they run through the fountains. They run through the water and able to stay cool for just a few moments during this hottest part of the day. And while people are having fun here, they're also thinking about those that are not able to get out to jump in a pool or through a water fountain to cool off. We talked with one man who's concerned about a family member.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REGINALD KNIGHT, ATLANTA RESIDENT: My mother doesn't have air- conditioning at her house, but I call her every morning to make sure she's all right and just to remind her to drink water, to stay in the shade and just come over if she gets too overheated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CALLAWAY: You know, the elderly and those who are shut up inside their homes are the ones we need to be concerned about all across the country on this hot day. They're just not able to get out and cool off; many people without air-conditioning in their homes.

So, they are encouraging people to check on those relative, on those loved one. And you know, drink a lot of water, because it is hot out here, Lisa, and believe it or not, tomorrow is supposed to be even hotter here in Atlanta. And I hear that's the case across the country, in some of these cities suffering heat waves; that, indeed, it may be Sunday that is the hottest.

SYLVESTER: Yes. Catherine, those fountains look like a really good idea, especially with 95-degree weather out there.

CALLAWAY: That's right.

SYLVESTER: All right, thank you, Catherine Callaway, for joining us.

It was John Roberts' day to shine, but his son stole the show. Jeanne Moos takes a look at other famous children who have upstaged their parents, next on CNN's LIVE SATURDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SYLVESTER: A lot of folks out there, trying to stay cool in this heat.

Well, children often act up in public and embarrass their parents, but nothing could be worse than if it happens on national TV. The son of President Bush's Supreme Court nominee was taken off stage after his playful antic. Jeanne Moos looks at that incident and other children who have stolen the national spotlight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only 4 years old and already he's got a tabloid nickname. He's debuted on "The Daily Show."

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good evening.

MOOS: Young Jack Roberts lasted a mere 48 seconds into the president's introduction of his dad before he started getting antsy. Next thing you know, he's fiddling with the furniture, eluding his mother's grasp and then, gasp, crawling on the floor.

BUSH: He's an honors graduate of both Harvard College and Harvard Law School.

MOOS: But even degrees from Harvard don't help control a 4-year- old. In his shorts and saddle shoes, he took us back four decades to another kid who tended to steal the show. John-John's dad may have been president, but at that age it doesn't go to your head and if you want to suck your thumb, even a wannabe-first lady can't deter you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Extraordinary by itself.

MOOS: All it takes is one kid in the background to upstage the leader of the free world.

BUSH: The high sheriff is with us today. If you're worried about the quality of the education...

(LAUGHTER)

We stand for the fair treatment of faith-based groups able to see federal support for their work...

(LAUGHTER)

Yes, this will not happen on my watch.

(LAUGHTER)

MOOS: Oh, yeah? Watch this. Not the president, not the wife of a potential Supreme Court justice can establish order in this court.

JOHN STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW:" Jack, of course, is the one who appears to be on his way of losing the case of Family v. Ritalin.

(LAUGHTER)

MOOS: You know controlling kids is impossible, when even a tough former prosecutor like Rudy Giuliani is powerless. When Rudy was sworn in as mayor, son Andrew was blowing kisses...

RUDY GIULIANI, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: ... To our city.

MOOS: Talking during his dad's speech...

ANDY GIULIANI, SON OF RUDY GIULIANI: Yeah!

MOOS: Repeating the oath of office...

A. GIULIANI: I, Rudolph Giuliani.

MOOS: Getting in on the handshake, but even Andrew Giuliani has grown up into a poised, well-mannered 19-year-old golfing fanatic. Though occasionally even older kids like Jenna Bush regress, young Jack Roberts eventually had to be shuffled off stage and though some say...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They shouldn't have brought him.

MOOS: Most were entertained.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It made it interesting and intriguing.

MOOS (on camera): Can you remember the instances where your kids have mortified or humiliated you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You want like, just one?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why would I remember? I'm the one embarrassing her.

MOOS (voice-over): This lady remembered a time in a grocery store when her 3-year-old daughter demanded chocolate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said no. She proceed to strip down to nothing.

MOOS (on camera): She just started stripping off her clothes?

(voice-over): At least Jack didn't do that. He's no jumping Jack flasher.

(SINGING)

MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Kids, you've got to love them.

Well, stay with CNN. In a few moments, "IN THE MONEY."

At 2:00 Eastern what would you do if you were faced with a terror attack on a public transit? We'll speak with an expert to help you prepare.

And at 3:00 Eastern, "CNN PRESENTS" a progress report on the war in Iraq. Will democracy really bring peace and is life better for the Iraqi people?

But first, Jack Cafferty, with a preview of "IN THE MONEY."

JACK CAFFERTY, HOST, "IN THE MONEY": Thanks.

Coming up on "IN THE MONEY" today: Eye in the sky. London is on alert with hundreds-of-thousands of security cameras keeping watch. Now some U.S. cities are following suit. We'll find out if it's all worth the trouble.

Plus: Big business and the high court. We'll Look at how the choice of a Supreme Court justice could affect U.S. companies.

And: Keeping up. Find out if America still has what it takes to compete with the rest of the world.

All that and more, right after this quick check of the headlines.

SYLVESTER: Egyptian authorities vow to track down the bombers who carried out deadly attacks at a popular Red Sea resort. Investigators are calling the bombers a gang of criminals. The attacks on hotels and shopping areas in Sharm al-Sheikh killed at least 83 people and injured hundreds more.

Two days after the failed attacks on London's transport system, Police are now apologizing for shooting a man to death. The man who was under surveillance, was shot to death yesterday at an underground station. Authorities now say he was not -- not connected to Thursday's botched attacks. Today, police plan to question two suspects arrested yesterday.

I'm Lisa Sylvester at CNN Center in Atlanta. There's more news at the bottom of the hour. Stay with CNN. "IN THE MONEY" begins right now.

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