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CNN Live Saturday

Holiday Shopping Season Heats Up; Rape Continues in Sudan; Prisoners Escape in Washington; Iraq War Debate Continues; Liquor Store Vanalized by Religious Activists

Aired November 26, 2005 -   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: It is a busy holiday weekend in the air and on the road. Ahead this hour, some of the hot spots that might make getting home a little harder.
SUSAN LISCOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Susan Lisovicz, amid the throngs in Paramus, New Jersey, day two of the holiday shopping season is well under way.

HARRIS: And then they're angry, fed up and you can see by these pictures, their protest has become violent. Coming up, the message these vigilantes are trying to send.

Hello, and welcome to CNN LIVE Saturday. I'm Tony Harris in for Fredricka Whitfield.

All that and more after this check of the headlines. Now in the news -- two maximum security inmates still are on the loose from a jail in Yakima, Washington. Authorities say nine prisoners escaped yesterday by slipping through a ceiling and repelling down some 40 feet using tied together bed sheets. Seven have been recaptured including two just hours ago. We'll speak with the county sheriff in just a moment.

Four American soldiers are reprimanded for an incident involving the videotaped burning of two rebel bodies in Afghanistan. Two get reprimands for the act itself, two more for boasting about the burning over loud speakers as a way to taunt insurgents. The military says the bodies were burned for hygienic reasons not in disrespect.

And the Chinese government rushes tents to a part of Eastern China after an earthquake reportedly caused thousands of homes to collapse. State run media says thousands of people are sleeping outdoors. At least a dozen people were killed.

More now on the hunt for two escaped inmates in Washington state. Nine maximum security prisoners broke out of the Yakima County jail yesterday. Seven have been captured. Joining us on the phone is Yakima County Sheriff, Ken Irwin. Sheriff, good to talk to you.

KEN IRWIN, YAKIMA COUNTY SHERIFF: Good to talk with you, Tony.

HARRIS: Where do we start with a reset? Nine in all escaped yesterday. We have a number of them in custody. Four were still at large as of a couple hours ago. Two have been captured and two are still on the loose, is that correct?

IRWIN: That's correct.

HARRIS: What led you to the capture of the prisoners who you now have back in custody. Was it a general search of the area? We understand they were captured about four miles away from the jail, or it was a tip?

IRWIN: Yakima Police Department received information that one of the suspects and possibly two were at Santos Luera's sister's house. They were able to do a search of the residence and found Luera and Moser up in an attic and took them into custody.

HARRIS: In the sister's home?

IRWIN: That's correct.

HARRIS: Okay. Do you have any solid leads on the other two?

IRWIN: We're working different leads on those, and I don't have any further comment.

HARRIS: The two that you captured, did you arrest them without incident?

IRWIN: The police department did, yes, they did. Luera has a broken ankle, it's believed, and being checked out at the hospital.

HARRIS: Maybe you can, maybe you can't, maybe you won't answer this nest question. Do you believe the two prisoners who are still at large had help on the outside, vis-a-vis rides waiting to take them from the facility?

IRWIN: Yes, we have information that leads us to believe that they did have some help on the outside, and we're following up on that. I want to say, too, we've had excellent cooperation from everybody around, all the law enforcement agencies.

Yakima police has really stepped up. The Department of Corrections is a separate department from the Sheriff's Office. We've been working with them, and then, U.S. Marshals and Yakima County Department of Corrections, too.

HARRIS: I have to ask you, Sheriff, we were looking at -- let's put the pictures back up again if we could from inside the jail. Can you tell us what happened?

We're looking at a picture now of a hole in a ceiling. And these guys repelled down to the ground using 40 feet of tied-together bed sheets. What happened here?

IRWIN: I won't be able to comment on that. That will come from Department of Corrections, they're a separate department. You'll need to speak with them. It looks like it was a pretty quick and dirty job. A little bit easier than it should have been.

HARRIS: Does it suggest to you that they had help inside?

IRWIN: I'm sure they had help or at least knowledge of other inmates in that H cell block that supplied blankets, et cetera.

HARRIS: Give us the sense of the resources that you have at your disposal now as you work to find the other two inmates?

IRWIN: Last night we had about 15 of the Sheriff's Office units were involved in this. Also about 25 from the Yakima Police Department, another, oh gosh, three, four other agencies, five agencies were involved, too.

So it was all the help we need, what you do in this circumstance is you get the information out to the public, and that's your best chance of catching more suspects. Getting the last two in is people knowing who they are, what they look like and giving us a call.

HARRIS: Yakima County Sheriff Ken Irwin with us on the phone. Thanks for your time.

IRWIN: Thank you, bye now.

HARRIS: Turkey leftovers, dwindling. Bellies, growing, so are nerves as millions of people get back on the road after Thanksgiving. The highways are packed today and will be tomorrow with people driving home, to the airport, to the malls.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HARRIS: Holiday shoppers are hitting stores for a second day, snatching up everything from discounted toys to electronics. Luckily we haven't seen any repeats of this madness. Bargain hunters roughed up each other at several stores, including this Wal-Mart in Michigan.

Susan Lisovicz is getting an early start on her shopping, we hope, in The Garden State Plaza Mall in Paramus, New Jersey. Hi, Susan.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Not a chance. Earlier today I told you that conditions here were sensible, civilized, even pleasant. I take it all back. Right now, long lines, parking lot gridlock, crying babies, and in a way it's exactly what the retail industry wants.

It's such an important holiday shopping weekend. We're starting to get some conflicting numbers now. Shopper track just came out with its projections for Black Friday, saying $8 billion.

That's about even with what we've done a year ago, although anecdotally we're starting to see reports Wal-Mart, Sears, Macy's all saying they had better numbers than a year ago. And here at the Westfield's Garden State Plaza, in Paramus, New Jersey, they said 100,000 people descended on its stores yesterday. That's about a 5 percent increase year-over-year.

One of the people who braved the crowds today is Jerome Montgomery. Maybe size help that were able to muscle your way through the crowds today. How's it been, Jerome?

JEROME MONTGOMERY, SHOPPER: It's been pretty hectic. I've been walking around shopping. I've been shopping for my nephew Gary, he lives in South Carolina, as well as my father, Willis J. Montgomery. And it's been fabulous, sales all over the place.

LISCOVICZ: And so, what have you picked up so far? I see a few bags in your hand?

MONTGOMERY: Picked up a coat, pair of pant, sweaters, shoes. I'm just out here shopping, having a good time.

LISCOVICZ: Let's talk about discounts? What have you seen?

MONTGOMERY: 50 percent off, 40 percent off, 30 percent off. They've been wild and spectacular.

LISCOVICZ: And better than last year?

MONTGOMERY: Way better than last year.

LISCOVICZ: Happy shopping and good luck. Jerome Montgomery, one of the many, many people here who are now packing the Westfield Garden State Plaza. And remember Tony, this is not typically the busiest part of the year.

Shoppers are procrastinating more and more getting closer to the actual Christmas Day. The Saturday before Christmas is now typically the single busiest shopping day of the year. Only 28 more shopping days left, in fact. Back to you, Tony.

HARRIS: Note to self, avoid the Saturday before -- Susan, thank you.

LISCOVICZ: My pleasure, Tony. Thank you.

HARRIS: U.S. and Iraqi forces launch another offensive to disrupt terrorist operations in Iraq's Anbar Province. About 550 troops are engaged in Operation Tigers. It's goal is to route out insurgents ahead of December elections. Operations Tigers is the fourth in a series of offensives in the volatile region.

Saddam Hussein's trial may not resume Monday as planned. One of the ousted dictator's attorneys tells CNN he plans to seek another delay. The reason cited? Legal, logistical and security concerns. Safety has become a big issue after two defense attorneys were killed in the opening days of the trial.

President Bush is honoring U.S. troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere this holiday weekend. In his weekly radio address, the president thanked those serving in the danger zones for their sacrifice and what he called "freedom's cause."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The military families who mourn the fallen can know that American will not forget their sacrifice. And they can know that we will honor that sacrifice by completing the noble mission for which their loved ones gave their lives.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

HARRIS: Peace activist Cindy Sheehan, who lost her son in Iraq, is leading a new protest near the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas this weekend. She's autographing copies of her new book and renewing her call for an immediate withdrawal of U.S. forces in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY SHEEHAN, ANTIWAR PROTESTER: George Bush still hasn't said what noble cause. You know, he tries to, you know, have smoke screens about saying people who question him are cowards, people who want the truth withdrawn are cowards, people who, you know, bear dissent are traitors, are un-American. And we're saying, you know what? We think he's the coward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Supporters of the president are holding a pro-Bush rally today. Coming up next hour, we'll have a live report from the protests in Crawford.

Is it religion on a rampage? Up next, we'll tell you what may be behind the shocking attack in a California liquor store.

Will it be a counterfeit Christmas for you and your loved ones? Find out how some of those too good to be true deals are costing American businesses.

And is the world standing by while an African nation commits genocide? We'll take an in-depth look at the crisis in Darfur at the bottom of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: And news across America now. Dangers from thin ice in southeastern Wisconsin this weekend. Three people died in accidents on frozen ponds Friday. A 44-year-old father died trying to save his daughter after she fell through thin ice while skating. In a separate incident, a 12-year-old on an all-terrain vehicle fell through another frozen pond.

A December 8th meeting could change the fate of Crips founder Stanley "Tookie" Williams. California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is expected to meet with Williams' lawyers and L.A. prosecutors to consider commuting Williams' death sentence.

Williams is scheduled to be executed on December 13th for the murders of four people in 1979. After his conviction, Williams became an anti-gang activist and has since been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Another welcome sight. In New Orleans, crowds are returning to the Audubon Zoo. Some people were so moved by the zoo's reopening after the devastation of Hurricane Katrina, that official huggers were on hand as they comforted folks who were crying.

Liquor stores are traditional crime magnets, especially for armed holdups. But now look. They've become targets of another sort of crime, vigilante mobs bent on destroying the store's wares. CNN's Chris Lawrence has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At first look, what you see on the surveillance video doesn't seem to fit. Ten men wearing clean suits and bow ties, smashing bottles and glass all over this Oakland, California, liquor store.

KALED SALEH, SON LIQUOR STORE OWNER: When they first walked in I thought they were a bunch of, you know, church people.

LAWRENCE: Kaled Saleh was on duty Wednesday night. He says one of the men asked him, as a Muslim, how could he run a store like this.

SALEH: They said we're not supposed to be selling liquor.

LAWRENCE: And then they attacked. One man jumped over the counter and tore bottles off the shelves. Others waited for a command and then destroyed entire walls full of liquor. The owners say they were accused of selling poison to the black community.

SGT. DOM AROTZARENA, OAKLAND POLICE DEPT.: Despite what anybody said, this is a crime. This is not an act of helping out a neighborhood, this is a crime.

LAWRENCE: This isn't the first time groups have tried to shut down liquor stores on the basis of religion, but earlier efforts were peaceful. In Chicago, a pastor led a successful 1998 campaign to close 26 liquor stores in his neighborhood.

In Philadelphia, another pastor tried to attract a convenience store chain as competition to force out a nearby liquor store. And several churches in Selma, Alabama, have been fighting a city council decision that allows a liquor store to open among them.

Dr. John J. Hunter is the senior minister of 1st AME Church in Los Angeles, and says liquor sales have damaged communities like his.

REV. JOHN J. HUNTER, 1ST AME CHURCH: It's immoral. It -- there are many people that are driven by profit only, but responsible corporate citizens, responsible businesspersons, look beyond just merely the bottom line of profit.

LAWRENCE: The reverend says religious groups have an obligation to speak out about the damage these liquor stores can cause. In Oakland, police say the men attacked one store, then moved on to another. "TONY," LIQUOR STORE OWNER: What they did is like gang member stuff and, like, you know, it's like, it's not right.

LAWRENCE: The owner of that second store says his name is Tony and he won't back down from these attacks.

"TONY": We got God. God judge us, they can't judge us. They're not going it be able to force me to stop selling it if I want to sell it.

LAWRENCE (on camera): Now, the men in the video wore suits and bow ties. That's the traditional outfit of the Nation of Islam. But they never identified themselves as members, and the Oakland office says they are not and have never been members of the Nation of Islam.

Chris Lawrence, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Got your eye on a holiday bargain that seems too good to be true? It just might be. Why you should watch out for counterfeits when you're going gift shopping this holiday season.

And a peaceful night of sleep maybe the most priceless gift of all. Ahead, what can you do to make sure you're well rested. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Have you spotted a designer gift weekend that looks like an unbelievable bargain. You might want to take a second look. A growing number of counterfeit items includes everything form hand bags to video games. And as CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports, they're anything but a gift to the U.S. economy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On New York's Canal Street, rows of designer hand bags from Louis Vuitton to Kate Spade. They're knockoffs, fakes, counterfeit goods that may end up as holiday gifts. But they are hurting the U.S. economy.

JON DUDAS, UNDER SECY. OF COMMERCE: Counterfeiting is a tremendous problem. Estimated U.S. losses are $250 billion a year. It also affects jobs, up to 750,000 jobs a year lost.

SYLVESTER: The phony products, including clothes from The Gap, video games and watches come mainly from China. This Lacoste shirt retails in The United States for $65 and up, the Chinese version, $7.

Before you think you're getting a holiday bargain, consider the safety risk. Especially with toys.

DUDAS: We found exploding cell phone batteries. There was a case in Texas where the UL, Underwriter's Laboratory, label was counterfeited and the electrical cords to which they were attached burst into flames.

SYLVESTER: U.S. business leaders have been urging the federal government to pressure China to enforce intellectual property rights laws. The president of The Motion Picture Association of America had a congressional hearing this week.

DAN GLICKMAN, MOTIONS PICTURE ASSN. OF AMER.: We estimate the piracy rate exceeds 90 percent of the DVD's sold in China are fake.

SYLVESTER: Last month, the Bush administration requested through the World Trade Organization that China submit in writing what changes its making to its legal system to deal with the growing problem. If China fails to act, the federal government may bring a formal case. Senator Tom Coburn believs congress needs to take a tough stand against China.

SEN. TOM COBURN: We have the right to place countervailing duties on China if they're undermining our national security. When you totally ignore our intellectual properties, you, in the long run, undermine our national security.

SYLVESTER: Republican Senator Tom Coburn supports an amendment sponsored by Senators Graham and Schumer that would slap an across the board tariff on goods coming in from China. He says it would level the playing field and get China's attention. So maybe the political will will finally be able to enforce intellectual property rights laws.

Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: And coming up, how long can this go on? Will anyone do anything to halt the rape of Sudan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Here are the latest developments. Police in Washington state are still looking for two inmates who are on the run. They captured two other escaped inmates today. Nine inmates used a rope made out of bed sheets to flee the Yakima County Jail yesterday. Five were quickly recaptured on the jail grounds.

Iran's president says President Bush and members of his administration should be tried on war crimes charges. In an apparent reference to the U.S., he said, "You who have used nuclear weapons against innocent people, who have used uranium ordnance in Iraq, should be tried as war criminals in courts.

A violent crackdown on protesters in the former Soviet republic of Azerbaijan. Thousands of people rallied in the capital, Baku, to demand new parliamentary elections. The protesters claimed fraud tainted the November 6 elections and the country's ruling party won in a landslide.

Here is a none too subtle reminder that a human rights catastrophe of staggering proportions is playing out now as we speak. It is happening in Sudan, in the region called Darfur, where tens of thousands of people have died in a grisly power struggle. Civilians have fled by the millions in a fruitless search for safety.

The atrocities aren't a secret and include allegations that government backed militias are using rape as a tool of warfare. We have a report from Darfur from CNN's Ryan Chilcote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every time Miriam Ibrahim (ph) goes outside her refugee camp in Darfur to collect firewood, she risks her life and honor.

Inside the privacy of her hut, she tells me something she's never told anyone else before. She was raped, she says, outside the camp's grounds. There were two of them, she says.

To fuel her stove, Miriam, a mother of six, left small branches. Traditionally, her husband would be in charge of bringing home the larger logs. He's been dead for more than a year. One of an estimated 200,000 men in Darfur killed by government armed militia know as the Janjaweed, Arabic for "evil man on a horse."

The men who survive the Jangaweed terror try not to go outside the camp at all. The French aid organization, Doctors Without Borders, says their aid workers treated 500 rape victims in Darfur over a 4 1/2-month period earlier this year.

Many women are too frightened or too ashamed to tell anyone. Let alone the Sudanese police, who they say don't want to hear their claims.

Even inside the camp, the women aren't safe. All those we spoke with were being watched by young men wearing glasses. Government spies, the women say.

Even as I spoke with Miriam, they stood outside her hut. Miriam dismisses the idea of going to the police. What's the difference, she asks? They're the same as the attackers.

In what might seem like a bizarre approach to protecting the camp's women, the United Nations is funding a program to produce stoves that will be twice as efficient as those used now. The idea is that they'll only have to go for firewood half as often.

Miriam doesn't have one of the new stoves yet, and if she did she would still have to make the trek, though she now goes in a larger group. Last week she says she and three others were attacked on the walk home but managed to escape. Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Darfur, Sudan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Let's talk about this more. Is this genocide in Sudan or is it not? The United States government says it is. The United Nations says no. Either way a lot of people agree that the killing in Darfur, the rape, the untold misery, amounts to the worst humanitarian nightmare anywhere in the world.

Joining us now from Washington, Jamera Rone of the group Human Rights Watch. Jamera, good to talk to you. Any doubt in your that mind what is going on in Darfur is, in fact, genocide?

JEMERA RONE, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: It is definitely crimes against humanity. Definitely ethnic cleansing and war crimes. And it's going on right now, and there are two million people who have been ethnically cleansed from their home. And they're kept away from returning to their farm by atrocities such as the one that you featured. Rape and other types of savage attacks on civilians.

HARRIS: How long has this been going on?

RONE: This has been going on more than two years now it's very, very disturbing. We're afraid that the ethnic cleansing is being consolidated. There hasn't been enough follow-through.

The U.S. was very good, initially trying to bring attention to this, and even calling it genocide a year ago. But since then, their efforts have somewhat flagged, and there are 7,000 African Union peacekeepers there who are trying to protect civilians, but it's a very large area and they need substantial more equipment.

Now the U.S. promised $50 million just a few months ago.

HARRIS: To go to who? Where that would money go.

RONE: To the African Union for improved equipment. They're getting armored personnel carriers and should have attack helicopters. They need a lot more than that, though. But they have to be able to respond vigorously to the Janjaweed and the people that are continuing to attack the civilians to keep them from returning to their farms and from farming.

HARRIS: Jemera, what's happening with the money? You mentioned the $50 million. It's the promise. Has it been delivered?

RONE: No, Congress voted against it and the administration did not push it at all. And this is a very big disappointment. We need the White House to take leadership on this and put this back on the priority.

The U.S. also needs to extend some political capital or diplomatic capital in the area of the Chinese. Because the Chinese now are blocking imposition of worldwide sanctions against the Sudanese government at the security council.

The U.S. needs to make a deal, or persuade them, or give them something that they want otherwise to get them off their opposition. The Chinese have oil interest in Sudan and they've been very interested in being chummy with the Sudanese government.

HARRIS: Jemera, in the meantime, the women of Darfur, to focus just on their plight, who do they trust? Some say they can't trust the rebel groups who are supposed to be leading this fight to better the conditions.

There is also the contention that you can't trust government. You certainly can't trust the Janjaweed. If you are a woman in one of these camps, if you are a refugee, who protects you? Who do you call? Who helps you?

RONE: Unfortunately, no one is protecting them, and no one is able to enforce the law. The government doesn't want to enforce the law. They have armed the Janjaweed, the Janjaweed are following their strategy. A lot of the police and Army are engaged in the raping as well.

They don't have as much to fear from the rebels, but the government and the Janjaweed have the upper hand are and they are committing the majority of abuses with impunity. No one is punished for this.

Of course there is going to be a lot of rape. No one is ever called to account. If women do complain in the few cases that have gone to the police. The police charge them with adultery, and threaten them with jail.

HARRIS: Let's leave it there. We have the other side of this discussion to get to. Jemera Rone of the group Human Rights Watch. Thank you.

Well Washington has been out front in calling Darfur a case of genocide. A lot of people have argued that the Bush administration's actions have not matched its tone, then again where does one even begin.

Here to tell the U.S. perspective, Assistant Secretary of State Jendayi Frazer. She is the point woman for Africa at the U.S. State Department. Jen Dye Good to talk to you.

JENDAYI FRAZER, ASST. SECY of STATE: Thank you, good to be here.

HARRIS: Where do we begin? We called this a genocide. That is, in fact, what is going on, isn't it?

FRAZER: Yes, the United States has -- the Bush administration has declared the violence in Darfur, the level of a genocide, we have been engaged to end the violence. The most important element or that engagement is to push for successful peace talks in Abuja, Nigeria.

Those talks will start tomorrow. And I've been to Darfur since I've been assistant secretary just three months, I've been to Darfur three times in the last month trying to push the SLM rebel groups together so they can be successful in those peace talks in Abuja.

HARRIS: So the peace talk get under way. What is the best we can hope for? Doesn't sound like we can ask for giant steps. What are the steps that hopefully come out of that?

FRAZER: It's important, we're aiming to have a peace agreement by the end of the year. That peace agreement would be part of the comprehensive peace agreement which was concluded to end the war between the North and the South.

It was a 22 year war that killed two million people, and President Bush, on the second day of his administration in 2001, said to his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice that he wanted to do something to end that war.

We had success and we have a comprehensive peace agreement in the end of the violence which was taking place between the North and the South. Now we need to extend the framework to the west and the east to end all marginalization across all regions of Sudan. Darfur being the most urgent because of the level of violence which we see there.

HARRIS: I have to ask you, and in the meantime, all of the negotiations go on, if you're, for the sake of discussion because we know there are atrocities committed against men and children who are being kidnapped and turned into child soldiers, but for the sake of this discussion, if you're a woman now, and you hear the stories of rape as a tactic in this war, if you're a woman there on the ground, who do you turn to? Who can help you?

FRAZER: Well, ultimately we have to hold the government of Sudan responsible for the security situation in Darfur. But we also have to hold the Sudanese Liberation Movement rebels as well as the Justice Equality Movement rebels, the JEM rebels, responsible.

We have been supporting the African Union mission, which has about 609,000 troops there, which the United States helped to airlift. We provided about $160 million to create 32 base camps to support those African Union forces and we pushed the government of Sudan to allow the armored personnel carriers coming from Canada to beef up the capacity of the African Union to support --

HARRIS: Jendayi, can I stop you there and just ask you, you seem to be implying that there is enough blame to go around, not only with the government, the Janjaweed obviously, but also the rebel groups as well?

FRAZER: That's right. Clearly the biggest blame belongs with the government which created the situation, and had armed the Janjaweed, creating wide-scale, organized violence. But in recent months, we've seen also the cease fire being violated by the rebel groups.

I was there in Darfur last week pushing SLM movement to respect the cease fire that they concluded with the government last year in Chad. So there is banditry, there's rebels violating the cease-fire, and most importantly the government of Sudan backing the Janjaweed militia has created an environment in which the women don't have the proper security.

HARRIS: Jendayi, that gives us a little more clarity on this. Jendayi Frazer, point woman for Africa at the United States Department of State. Thank you.

JENDAYI: Thank you. HARRIS: Is the hustle and bustle of the holidays having an impact on your sleep? Noisy neighbors, too much stress or the extra glass of wine after dinner. We'll look at what could be robbing you of a good night's sleep.

And later, unexpected help for commuters in a hurry. We'll take a look at the new phenomenon called slugging. What is that?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: In our "LIVING WELL" segment today, getting enough sleep. Work stress, holiday gatherings and shopping for gifts can really take a toll. But there are steps you can take believe it or not, to get enough rest. Dr. Bill Lloyd from the University of California, Davis Medical Center in Sacramento. Right on time. Good to talk to you.

DR. BILL LLOYD, UNIV OF CALIF. DAVIS MED. CTR: Good to talk to you, tony.

HARRIS: What kinds of things stress us out and prevent us from getting the sleep we know we need.

LLOYD: Sleep problems fall in two categories, people who can't fall asleep and people who can't stay asleep. People are exhausted because of anxiety including the worry that I may not fall asleep tonight.

People have horrible routine, particularly people in journalism who don't know what time to go to bed and get up early, and their schedule is totally amok. People have lots of bad habits, Tony.

People are making their bedrooms into home offices and dragging laptops to the bed with them. They're not getting to sleep they need with that.

Here's another one, it's not me, it's you. Your partner is keeping you up whether they have the jimmy legs or maybe they have a problem with snoring or sleep apnea. Other people are taking too many darned naps during the day because they're tired. Lots of small naps late in the day, particularly afternoon, will have a direct effect on your ability to fall asleep at night.

HARRIS: What do you think about the televisions? Get the televisions out of bedroom?

LLOYD: Get the televisions out of the bedroom. Get the computers out of the bedroom. Get everything out except a pillow and a partner.

HARRIS: Without putting us to sleep. Explain to us, Dr. Bill, how the body actually uses sleep?

LLOYD: Sleep is a vital function of your daily routine. It is as important as good nutrition and exercise. It helps not only your muscles restore engineer, but helps your brain refile its memories. Never fall asleep thinking about a test that you have to do the next day. I've got to take to the cleaners. No, get up and write it down because you'll never remember it.

If you don't get enough sleep, it will interfere with your mood, interfere with your energy, your memory and your ability to concentrate.

HARRIS: What about health problems from not getting enough sleep, being chronically tired?

LLOYD: It's a great point. Sleep researchers have found lots of problems are made worse when you don't get enough rest. There was a recent study involving a large group of healthy men who were given the flu shot. Half of them were allowed two weeks of normal sleep.

The other two were not given good sleep at all for a two week period. And the half that didn't get proper sleep, they never developed immunity from the flu shot. Diabetics and people with high blood pressure also have a more difficult time controlling their diseases when they don't get enough shut eye.

HARRIS: Dr. Bill, why don't we just pop a pill. There is a pill for everything to make things right in your life. How many people are turning to prescription medicines to get a good night's sleep?

LLOYD: Millions of Americans take sleeping pills. There may be a medical need for some people to take it for a short period of time. Elderly take sleeping pills every single night.

There's alternatives like behavioral therapy instead of pills, where you retrain your brain about activities leading to bedtime so you get a proper night's sleep, rather than having to take a glass of wine or sleeping pill which may back fire you and force to you get back up again.

HARRIS: OK, Dr. Bill, it's been a long shift for me here at mother ship, CNN, and Fred's coming up in just a couple of minutes here. Do I take a nap? Do I wait until the normal bedtime. I want to start creating good habits tonight.

LLOYD: You're in the East Coast. After 3:00 p.m. in the East Coast, no more nap after 3:00 p.m. Eastern time. You want to set up a constant schedule. Consistently, go to bed at the same time. That's hard to do depending on your work schedule.

You want to respect red zone. Football has a red zone, so does sleeping. That time between dinner and bedtime. Back away from excess exercise, excess drinking and start thinking about getting yourself in the mood for falling asleep.

Think about what you eat and drink. If you need a snack, carbohydrates and a caffeine free beverage. Not decaffeinated, caffeine free. Remember, get laptop and the televisions out of bedroom, and don't forget to unwind for 30 to 40 minutes before you go to sleep. Take a hot bath, listen to relaxing music, listen to Larry King and whatever and fall asleep.

HARRIS: I want take your advice.

You're getting more than your share of sleep.

LLOYD: We'll talk again.

HARRIS: Take care. They're known as body snatchers and slugs, teaming up to beat the rush-hour traffic. This creative approach to commuting straight ahead.

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HARRIS: Would you stop and give a ride to a total stranger? Some people in the nation's capital are doing just that. They're picking up and dropping off passengers while driving to work in Washington. CNN's Kathleen Koch reports on the growing phenomenon known as slugging.

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KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They come out rain or shine. The slugs, with their briefcases and cell phones looking for a free ride to or from work. Drivers happily comply. Because one or more passengers gives them access to super fast carpool lanes that bypass Washington, D.C.'s notoriously snarled traffic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do it for convenience, it's easy and faster to get home. Just take a look over there. We're talking a 30 minute ride, that could take an hour.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My family in Delaware thinks it's hilarious. They can't imagine me putting the window down and screaming out, 18th and I, and people running to the car and jumping in.

KOCH:: The ad hoc carpools started in 1971 when Virginia built its first carpool lanes. Drivers needing extra passengers to enter would pick up riders at bus stops. Angry bus drivers call them body snatchers and their passengers slugs. Like counterfeit coins used to get free rides to buses.

But what bus drivers detest, commuters and transportation experts love.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I slug primarily because it's a win-win for me and driver?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the metro it takes a long time to get home -- an hour. But the slug line, you only wait five to ten minutes and you're home in like 25 minutes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because we have the slug lines our HOV lanes aren't underutilized.

KOCH (on camera): 23 states have carpool lanes. But Washington D.C's homegrown slug system is one of the most highly developed in the country.

(voice-over): There are 24 slug stops. And in a city known for long work hours. Slugging gives commuters more flexibility.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very convenient. I can come and go as I please. If I'm late from work, I don't worry about missing a bus or a carpool.

KOCH:: And there is slug etiquette. Don't speak unless you're spoken to. No eating, drinking or cell phones, and everyone insists it's safe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are dealing with people who are in professional jobs, and I never heard of a problem.

KOCH: Strangers banding together in search of the elusive speedy commute. Kathleen Koch, CNN, Washington.

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HARRIS: So if a new TV is on your wish list this holiday season, you'll want to hear what our consumer expert has to say. Whether you want a plasma, LCD or HD capable. She'll break it down for you in the next hour of CNN LIVE SATURDAY when you are joined by Fredricka Whitfield.

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