Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Saturday
Congress Debates A Variety Of Immigration Reform Bills, As Protests For And Against Spring Up Around The Nation; Discussion Of Pro And Con of Reforms Being Proposed; Afghani Man Who Converted To Christianity In Danger Of Prosecution, Execution
Aired March 25, 2006 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KAREEN WYNTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tens of thousands take over the streets of downtown Los Angeles to fuel a passionate fight on illegal immigration. I'll have the very latest on this fight, coming up next in a live report.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Also, police say she admits gunning down her husband. At this hour, the minister's wife is on the road back to Tennessee. Do police have any idea of a motive? We'll bring it to you, all the details, the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stepped up and did something for the people. That's it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: And now this Mississippi sheriff finds himself in legal limbo for the actions he took in the days following Hurricane Katrina.
Hello and welcome to CNN LIVE SATURDAY.
I'm Carol Lin.
And here's what's making news right now.
The immigration debate hit the streets of Los Angeles today with a massive demonstration. What do protesters hope to gain and what is the White House saying about it? We'll have a live report in just a minute.
Urging potential witnesses to come Fastow, Milwaukee police are asking for the public's help to find two missing teens. They've received hundreds of tips so far. Eleven-year-old Purvis Parker and 12-year-old Quadrevion Henning have been missing for nearly a week.
And police in Washington State are investigating multiple homicides. Six bodies were found in a Seattle house today. Two people are being treated at a local trauma center. The suspected gunman shot himself when confronted by police.
More violent protests in the Belarus capital Minsk today. Demonstrators are disputing results of last week's election. The incumbent won a third term. The European Union and the U.S. say his victory has turned Belarus into the last dictatorship in Europe. Protesters say the vote was rigged.
And one of television's original rhinestone cowboys has died. Country music singer Buck Owens passed away at his Bakersfield, California home today. The former "Hee Haw" icon was 76.
First today, the immigration debate. There as many as 20 million people in the country illegally and more arrive each day. And many Americans feel the nation has lost control of its boarders. On that, there is broad agreement.
But how to make it right has sparked a loud political struggle.
Today, tens of thousands of immigrants are having their say. They've taken to the streets in Los Angeles ahead of a huge debate in Washington on Monday.
This hour, we will hear their voices. We will hear the ideas of the nation's political leaders. And we are going to host our own debate.
Right now we're going to start in Los Angeles with CNN's Kareen Wynter, on the streets of L.A.
WYNTER: Hi, there, Carol.
Well, I can tell you that I think that many of the opponents who are out here, to this bill that's already passed in the House, really didn't think that they would be able to accomplish as much as they did today.
A few people walking by me. One person said the numbers out here are crazy. You can hear it from the noise around me. We also want to take you to the sky to give you an aerial view, another perspective of just how many people showed up for today's protests -- tens of thousands. We hope to have an official number the end of the day. And this march is still going on.
Now, a short time ago the mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaraigosa, addressed the crowd here, weighing in on this hotly debated issue, basically shooting down this bill that was heavily backed by Republican Representative James Sensenbrenner. That bill, again, passed in December. And next week is very important. Everyone really has their eyes on the measure that Congress will also be weighing, that when senators perhaps adopt a similar version.
So what you're seeing all around me is pressure. They're sending a message to Washington. They're also using it through their city leaders, that they want some kind of leniency here, especially when it comes to amnesty.
But, again, the mayor sounding off today, shooting down that bill, saying that there definitely needs to be some movement in the other direction. And, also, saying, Carol, more importantly, when people use the word immigrants, he says there are no specific immigrants here, that we're, in fact, all immigrants here in this country -- Carol. LIN: All right, Kareen, thank you very much.
Now President Bush said today what many Americans have long come to accept. He said immigrant workers are doing the jobs most Americans don't want. Well, even so, his guest worker program is rousing opposition from within his own party.
And with that part of the story from the White House, CNN's Kathleen Koch.
KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, from the outset, about two years ago, when President Bush first introduced his temporary worker plan, members of his own party had very deep and abiding reservations about it. They felt that it could potentially jeopardize U.S. security and allow non-citizens into the U.S. who might never leave.
But President Bush said in his radio address today that comprehensive immigration reform involves more than just adding guards and fences to the border.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Comprehensive immigration reform requires a temporary worker program that will relieve pressure on our borders. This program would create a legal way to match willing foreign workers with willing American employers to fill jobs that Americans will not do. By reducing the number of people trying to sneak across the border, we would free up our law enforcement officers to focus on criminals and drug dealers and terrorists and others who mean us harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOCH: The president insisted his plan is not tantamount to a blanket amnesty, a permanent amnesty, and would not put guest workers on a fast track to citizenship. Mr. Bush plans to make immigration reform his focus next week, as the U.S. Senate begins debate on the controversial topic. And as the president Monday his plans include attending the naturalization ceremony here in Washington, D.C. before, later on in the week, Wednesday, flying to Cancun, Mexico for two days of meetings with Mexican President Vicente Fox -- Carol.
LIN: All right, thanks very much, Kathleen.
We are far from through with this topic.
At the bottom of the hour, I'm going to host a debate between an advocate for immigrants from Mexico and a proponent of stronger curbs on immigration.
And in the 6:00 hour, I'm going to talk about the issue live from Los Angeles with L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa.
Now, in the meantime, a bewildered congregation. A dead minister, and his wife facing murder charges. Police say Mary Winkler confessed to planning her husband's death. But so far, they're not giving any motive.
Robert Shackelford is on the telephone from Selmer, Tennessee.
He is a deacon with the Fourth Street Church of Christ, where Winkler was preaching.
Mr. Shackelford, good evening.
And our condolences to your congregation.
I'm wondering whether you're going to have a chance to talk with Mary Winkler? Are you going to visit her in jail?
ROBERT SHACKELFORD, CHURCH DEACON: Well, I'm certain that some in our congregation will make contact with Mary when she arrives here in Selmer. We're certainly praying for her and for her three children that whatever is in their best interests will take place.
LIN: What in the world do you think happened in this family?
SHACKELFORD: From my observation, I do not have a clue. Even looking back, when things like this happen, many times we look back and see things that help us realize why certain events have transpired. But even now, knowing what apparently has taken place, we look back and we don't see anything...
LIN: Nothing?
SHACKELFORD: ... that was a clue or...
LIN: Nothing?
SHACKELFORD: Nothing...
LIN: Nothing in the relationship...
SHACKELFORD: Nothing at all.
LIN: ... I don't know, a controlling personality, some form of abuse, any sort of conflict?
SHACKELFORD: No, nothing at all that was apparent to me or to any other church members that I'm aware of. They just appeared to be a very normal, happy, loving couple. They're wonderful parents to their three children. The children are very vivacious and outgoing. They're very bright and intelligent children. They're very active in school and in extracurricular activities in the community and at church. They were just a wonderful family.
LIN: Mr. Shackelford, so how are you and the congregation going to deal with this Sunday morning, tomorrow?
SHACKELFORD: Well, we will have a special service tomorrow. It will not be business as usual, certainly, by any means. And we'll have a guest speaker who will come in to help us begin the healing process. And it will be a time of sharing and support for one another.
Our sister congregations in the county and around the state and even the nation have been so supportive, sending e-mails and phone calls and it's just great to know that so many people are concerned and are thinking about us and that we're in their thoughts and prayers.
LIN: It is going to be a challenge. And you and your congregation, I'm sure, are going to be reaching deep into your faith.
Are there questions here that can be answered in terms of your faith? How can something like this happen?
SHACKELFORD: Well, many times we do find situations in life that test our faith. But rather than speculate, we're going to wait and see what develops. We will see what comes out in the days and weeks to come. And we will deal with those issues one by one as they develop. And we will progress and move forward as a congregation. We will have a spirit of forgiveness and we have a spirit of love for Mary, if, indeed, she did do this. We certainly do not condone what was done, but we still love Mary and we pray for her best interests. And we will forgive her and move forward.
LIN: Robert Shackelford, thank you very much.
SHACKELFORD: Thank you.
LIN: Mary Winkler on her way back to Selmer.
In Iraq, a bomb rips through a minibus in Baghdad, just one of several attacks today in Iraq that killed nine people. The carnage did not stop there. Seven bodies were found in Baghdad over the last 24 hours, all showing signs of torture.
And near Kirkuk, a crackdown on insurgents. U.S. military officials say they caught 52 suspects in a mission dubbed Operation Scorpion.
Held hostage in Iraq for nearly four months, Briton Norman Kember returned home today to be reunited with his wife. U.S. and British forces rescued Kember and two fellow peace activists from a house near Baghdad Thursday.
Speaking to reporters in London, Kember paid tribute to both the Iraqi people and the soldiers who freed him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NORMAN KEMBER, FREED HOSTAGE: It's the ordinary people of Iraq that you should be talking to. Those are the people who have suffered so much over so many years and still await the stable and just society that they deserve.
Another group that I hope you do not forget are the relatives of British soldiers killed or wounded in Iraq. I do not believe that lasting peace is achieved through armed force, but I pay tribute to their courage and thank those who played a part in my release early on.
When was it?
(OFF CAMERA REMARKS)
KEMBER: Yes, yes, Thursday morning.
I'm not ready at this time to talk about my months of captivity, except to say, of course, that I'm delighted to be free and reunited with my family.
In reality, it was my wife who was kidnapped last November. She suffered more than I because while I knew that I was alive and well, she did not. And I thank all of those...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Well, the fourth member of the Christian Peacemakers Team held hostage, American Tom Fox. He was found shot dead on a Baghdad street earlier this month.
Now, Russia insists it did not pass sensitive information to Saddam Hussein in the opening days of the Iraq War. That explosive allegation is made in a newly released Pentagon report that's based on captured Iraqi documents.
The report says Russia's ambassador to Iraq may have given the former Iraqi dictator information about U.S. troop movements and strategy at the start of the 2003 invasion.
A Russian spokesman calls the accusation completely unfounded.
But it's the current situation in Iraq that's troubling U.S. lawmakers, among others. For the second time in less than a week, a high level congressional delegation met with Iraqi politicians in Baghdad. And their message was clear -- stop the political bickering and form a unity government or risk losing the support of the American people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: We need very badly to form this unity government as soon as possible. We read the polls and we know that the American people have grown frustrated. And yet we also know the stakes are very high and success is vital.
SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: It is a critical time for this government of national unity to be created. Whatever people thought in the first place about this invasion of Iraq or whatever they may think about the way it's been conducted, all Americans want this effort to create this government to succeed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Well, the delegation also met with U.S. military leaders, including the U.S. commander in Iraq, General George Casey. So is the media's coverage of the Iraq war partly to blame for the cycle of violence? What the Bush administration wants you to think, next.
And putting religious freedom to the test in Afghanistan. Will this man's Christian conversion cost him his life?
And can pregnant women undergo chemotherapy and still deliver a healthy baby? A new study may surprise you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: All right, live pictures out of Los Angeles right now, where you are watching perhaps tens of thousands of people marching the streets of Los Angeles in protest to threaten legislation on Capitol Hill.
Congress is debating this issue on Monday and Tuesday, whether there should be a guest worker program or whether illegal aliens, illegal immigrants, should be thrown out of the United States altogether. Now, obviously, this is going to be a big issue for the president next week as he travels and talks about immigration to the United States. But he's not happy with the media coverage on several fronts.
for example, when we're talking about the president and the pictures, the war in Iraq, the White House is not happy with that media coverage of the conflict and top officials have been voicing their concern again and again.
Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Does the coverage of war's violence change the war?
BUSH: I'm not suggesting you shouldn't talk about it. I'm certainly not being, you know, please don't take that as criticism. But it also is a realistic assessment of the enemy's capability to effect a debate. And they know that. They're capable of blowing up innocent lives so it ends up on your TV show.
CROWLEY: He sees a symbiotic relationship between violence in Iraq and the coverage of it, a cycle draining support for the war. It is a recurring theme in Bushville that negative news coverage is making the war worse. Not that direct, but close.
The defense secretary also complains of news that is flat wrong.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DENSE SECRETARY: Contrary, the steady stream of errors all seem to be of a nature to inflame the situation and to give heart to the terrorists and to discourage those who hope for success in Iraq.
CROWLEY: Critics dismiss the charges as the excuses of an administration in its darkest days. Still, it is not wholly incorrect. Click the remote.
ELIZABETH VARGAS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: A major insurgent attack has dealt another blow to the struggling security forces.
CROWLEY: From one channel...
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In Iraq, insurgents armed with rocket grenades and machine guns stormed the police station today.
CROWLEY: ... to another.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... the prison in Sunni territory, killing 18 policemen and freeing all the prisoners.
CROWLEY: What goes largely unseen, reporters agree, are large areas of the country where few of them go because travel is so risky. Most reporters are either embedded with the military or confined to areas around Baghdad, where bad news comes to find you.
ABC Reporter Jake Tapper was covering a story about Iraqi comedy when their main contact was assassinated.
JAKE TAPPER, ABC REPORTER: And so our cameras were rolling while the director and the producer and the cast and crew found out that the guy that had green lit the show and the guy that had set up our being there was killed. So no matter how hard we try to cover the positive, the violence has a way of rearing its head.
CROWLEY: Good stories are hard to cover and hard to see in the midst of what one reporter called "the daily boom."
BUSH: Others look at the violence they see each night on their television screens and they wonder how I can remain so optimistic about the prospects of success in Iraq. They wonder what I see that they don't.
CROWLEY: A picture tells a thousand words, and the president has few pictures of his own.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
LIN: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is tomorrow's guest on "LATE EDITION WITH WOLF BLITZER." You can see it right here, beginning at 11:00 a.m. Eastern.
Now, can chemotherapy treatment ever coincide with a woman's pregnancy?
How one study is giving new hope in the fight against breast cancer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got a small town sheriff who took on the federal government, basically, for the good of his people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Could that sheriff now end up facing criminal charges?
We'll explain what he did in the days following Hurricane Katrina that's left him in a legal limbo.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
KATIE: When I'm speaking to people overseas, it certainly slows down communication to go through a translator.
I work for a relief and development organization. In a relief situation, elaborate communication is key, and a little bit might be lost in the translation. It would be great to have some type of speech technology that would allow relief workers to speak directly with the people that they're serving so that you could understand their needs as quickly as possible.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Quick and easy communication in a foreign language is essential for relief workers like Katie. And for the rest of us, it sure would make traveling overseas more fulfilling and enjoyable.
Wouldn't it be great if you could speak any language effortlessly?
(voice-over): The director of the Inter-Accent at Carnegie Mellon University, Dr. Alex Waibel, is in the business of breaking language barriers.
DR. ALEX WAIBEL, CARNEGIE MELLON UNIVERSITY: Have you been feeling well?
O'BRIEN: In Waibel's lab, you'll find portable PDA translators for tourists, goggles that project translated subtitles, even a speaker that can send a beam of translated audio to a single listener.
WAIBEL: You can have a personalized translation for one listener in Spanish, for another one in German, for a third one with another language.
O'BRIEN: Even more amazing, electrodes that, when attached to cheek and throat, can turn a person's native tongue into a language they have never spoken before.
WAIBEL: Then, these electrodes can capture the movement, recognize the words that could have been spoken that way and translate them into another language and sound them out aloud.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: A potential medical breakthrough. A new German study finds cells from the testicles of mice closely mimic embryonic stem cells. Researchers say they are optimistic about discovering human testicular cells that will do the same. That could lead to treatments for several serious illnesses, including Parkinson's Disease and diabetes.
And another new study finds a troubling link between snoring and cognitive development in children. Researchers say infants who snore so loudly they wake themselves up score lower on standardized mental development tests. They study -- the study also suggests that exposure to secondhand smoke may contribute to the negative effects of snoring.
All right, in today's New Frontiers segment, a controversial approach to treating breast cancer. Now, it's an option many pregnant women in the past never had.
Here's our technology correspondent, Daniel Sieberg.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dr. Richard Theriault of M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston is turning risk into reward. Theriault is the leading pioneer in using chemotherapy to successfully treat pregnant women with breast cancer, a controversial practice that many physicians are not willing to consider.
DR. RICHARD THERIAULT, M.D. ANDERSON CANCER CENTER: What we still hear from the patients who come to us is that the doctors that they see outside often say you must terminate the pregnancy or we can't take care of the cancer.
SIEBERG: The 13-year study conducted by Theriault and his team of oncologists suggests you can save the baby while fighting the disease. Seventy percent of the mothers treated are still alive and cancer-free. All of the children survived and have normal development thus far. One child was born with Down's Syndrome, but doctors believe the disorder is not connected to the chemo.
TAMI RENETZKY, CANCER PATIENT: I couldn't even believe that you could put, you know, chemo, which is a poison, into your body and that it wouldn't have any effect on the baby whatsoever.
SIEBERG: Tami Renetzky started chemo six months into her pregnancy. She delivered a healthy baby girl, Sierra, and now continues radiation treatment.
RENETZKY: I'm very blessed to be here with her because Dr. Theriault, from the initial day, one, wasn't sure if I was going to make it to be here to see her born. And I'm just very happy.
THERIAULT: I don't take a lot of personal credit for this. It's just something that I fell into. The women are heroic. They get all the credit.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
LIN: And back to the news.
Thousands rally in Los Angeles to protest pending immigration reform. But what's really at stake and what does it mean for America's future?
We're going to debate those issues next.
And American soldiers died to bring his nation religious freedom. So why is this Afghan man now threatened with death for becoming a Christian?
CNN LIVE SATURDAY comes right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Happening right now in the news, a man shoots himself when confronted by police in Seattle. Officers think he's responsible for killing six other people at a party. Two other people were wounded.
And sheriffs deputies from Tennessee have traveled to Alabama to take a pastor's wife into custody. Mary Winkler is charged with first degree murder. Authorities say she's confessed to shooting her husband.
Two Milwaukee boys are still missing. It's been nearly a week since they were last seen. Police and the FBI think someone has information, but they're just not talking.
And a hostage no more. Norman Kember is back home in London tonight. Kember was one of three Christian aid workers freed in a rescue mission in Baghdad Thursday. A fourth hostage, American Tom Fox, was found dead earlier this month.
And thousands of people are in the streets in Los Angeles today. They are taking part in one of many pro-immigrant rallies around the country. Efforts to toughen immigration laws are sparking the demonstrations.
The immigration proposals are many. So let's take stock. The House has passed a plan to make felons of illegal immigrants, and to build a border fence. President Bush is proposing a guest worker plan, combined with stronger border enforcement. And a slew of proposals are percolating up through the U.S. Senate.
Get your scorecard out because here's CNN's Lisa Sylvester with a report that first aired on "Lou Dobbs Tonight."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): There a are as many as 20 million illegal aliens in the United States. The Senate Judiciary Committee has been weighing what to do about them. But time is up on Monday. That's when Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist expects the committee to send a proposal to the full floor. If not, Fist is waiting in the wings with his own legislation.
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN) MAJORITY LEADER: A country that cannot secure its borders, cannot secure its destiny.
SYLVESTER: Frist's bill was originally touted as an enforcement- only plan. It has border security measures, but it doubles the number of green cards from 1 million to 2 million, and significantly expands the number of skilled foreign workers allowed in under the H-1B visa program. Frist's bill has left immigration reformists like Bay Buchanan dismayed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has a bill almost as bad as Kennedy's, to be quite honest. It's doubling legal immigration every single year.
SYLVESTER: The McCain-Kennedy bill would grant amnesty to illegal aliens and puts them on the path to citizenship. It sets a guest worker program for new workers with little on the enforcement side. Indications are that this week, Judiciary Committee staffers have merged this bill with one offered by Senator Arlen Specter. His plan includes amnesty, allowing illegal aliens to live and work indefinitely in the United States, a guest worker program and a 750,000 increase in the number of green cards. All the versions have one thing in common -- they would bring in more workers to compete for American jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course the working class suffers the most. Not so much through taxes, but the fact that these foreign workers are competing the most directly in their job markets. So their wages are depressed, maybe even going down in real terms.
SYLVESTER: The Republican leadership is trying to get the McCain-Kennedy-Specter compromise through the Judiciary committee on Monday and to the full Senate as soon as possible. But assuming it gets to the floor, no one knows what is going to happen next. Some Democrats are threatening to filibuster if amnesty is not included, Republicans threatening to filibuster if it is included. Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: So from that report it's clear, there are many sides to the immigration debate. We're going to look at two views right now. Those are John Trasvina, senior vice president the Mexican-American legal defense fund and education fund. He's in Los Angeles. And Michael Cutler, a former official of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, now with the Center for Immigration Studies. He joins us from New York.
Welcome to both of you. John, let me begin with you. There is a study and I think it's from Michael's group, in fact, it shows that the number of illegal workers is rising. While more Americans are becoming unemployed. Is this evidence that illegal immigrants are taking American jobs?
JOHN TRASVINA, LATINO COMMUNITY ADVOCATE: No, it's also not factual. The number you had earlier the 20 million, that's just "Lou Dobbs" talk. No one responsible estimates the number of undocumented immigrants that high.
LIN: It's a range. It's anywhere from 7 to 20 million, nobody really knows for sure.
TRASVINA: Well, the immigrant soldiers fighting for us if Iraq and Afghanistan are not taking jobs away from American soldiers. Clearly, whether it's in the military or whether it's in agriculture, or the service industry, America needs more workers. There's no connection between unemployment, where most immigrants are going to high employment areas, not high unemployment areas. So there is no connection between the two data.
LIN: Michael, if there is a construction job out there, how many native-born Americans are going to go out for that job? Let's say to remove asbestos?
MICHAEL CUTLER, CTR. FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Well, right now you're not going to find Americans doing it because what's happened is a matter of supply and demand. And it's a matter of price structure for the job. The construction industry is being hammered because of the advent of very available day laborers who are willing to come in and work for much less money than what a tradesman. And the result is we're putting a lot of middle-class people out of the middle class and it's always been the middle class that was the engine and the heart and soul of America.
LIN: But America has always been based on a competitive economy. So --
CUTLER: Yes, that's true but if you look at what unions have done over the years, is to build up the wages, work conditions, fringe benefits. And now corporations in global -- because of globalization, they're trying to compete with countries like China that don't pay decent wages. That don't offer working conditions that are appropriate. What we're doing now is trying to degrade the cost of labor in the United States so that we can become competitive with places like China and Mexico. But meanwhile, it's hurting America's middle class. It's hurting our ability to continue on as a world leader.
And this is a big issue especially on the fact we're waging a war on terror. We have no idea who's inside the United States. We have no way of controlling who comes into the United States. And we know that the terrorist who attacked us on 9/11 were able to game the system acquire false ID and that it's a national security problem.
LIN: We also than Timothy McVeigh was an American-born citizen attacked the Oklahoma federal building. So the definition of terrorist is -- is frankly a subjective one. But I want to ask you, John, to respond to Michael's remarks.
TRASVINA: Well, we're growing economy. In the next eight years, we're going to need 8 million more workers in the top 25 occupations. We don't have enough American workers born here who are either able or willing to do the jobs.
LIN: But what do illegal immigrants contribute to the economy? There's a perception out there, they feel the emergency rooms, OK? At a hospital's expense. They fill the public schools that are funded by American taxpayer dollars.
TRASVINA: Well, now we're getting back to "Lou Dobbs" speak again.
LIN: No, we're getting back to a perception out there. This is not a branding issue. This is a perception and I'm asking you to address it.
TRASVINA: Yes, and addressing it through the kinds of jobs that they're filling. The jobs that need to be done, some in asbestos removal, some in agriculture. Jobs that are just not getting done by American workers. Immigrants have always contributed to the country. They're contributing in local communities. Revitalizing and reviving communities in Iowa, in Nebraska, and in the Southeast. Where frankly people were leaving and leaving in droves.
LIN: Michael, also in Florida. I mean the Florida Fruit & Vegetable Association estimates at least half of all of the agricultural work force in that state are illegal immigrants. What would happen if all these people were to leave?
CUTLER: Well, the Center for Immigration Studies did a study that showed that if we were to get rid of all of the illegal aliens doing agricultural work that the cost per family, per month, for fruits and vegetables would rise by $10. It's minimal because the cot labor is only a very small component of what we pay.
LIN: So do you think Americans happened fill those jobs?
CUTLER: I believe they would and if they wouldn't, then there is a visa process which is orderly, which does not allow people who are here illegally to be here. You get one opportunity for first impression. By allowing people to stay here, and then reward them for violating our laws encourages more illegal immigration. We saw it in 1986 with the first amnesty.
LIN: So you are saying that immigrants who are here illegally contribute nothing to the society? You as a citizen do not benefit in any way?
CUTLER: I believe we could do fine without people coming here illegally. There is a limitless supply of illegal aliens, potentially, in the world. We need to be able to control who is here. If we need to bring people in to do work that needs to done and we can't find American, you have a visa process that enables that to happen. What I'm opposed to is the that people can come here in violation of law. Hide their identity. Hide their intentions and succeed in hiding among us.
LIN: And on that note, let me ask, John. Do you think the guest worker program would be the solution, then?
TRASVINA: Well, that's why the Kennedy-McCain bill works, and works for America. Allows people to come out and recognize their status and because they've worked, they've earned that legalization status. They've worked in the hard jobs. We need the workers, we need them working legally. They need the visas and that's what McCain- Kennedy bill would provide.
And that's why it's getting a majority of the support in the Senate Judiciary Committee and we're hopeful that a McCain-Kennedy- Specter bill will pass the committee and allow immigration to go forward, and really to address a lot of the major issues that need to be addressed.
LIN: John Trasvina, Michael Cutler, obviously this is a bigger issue than a few minutes can offer. But we're going to be giving full coverage all week long to this issue. Not just "Lou Dobbs" but the rest of us here at CNN.
So I appreciate both of your time.
TRASVINA: Thanks, Carol.
CUTLER: Thank you for having us.
LIN: Now, be sure to stick around for our 6 o'clock hour because I'm going to be join by one of the nation's most powerful Latino officials. Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and we are anxious hear his perspective on the topic of immigration.
In the meantime, the Pentagon says an American soldier was killed in a gun battle in Afghanistan today. The military says another soldier was injured in the battle against Taliban forces in Helmand province.
Now the Afghan cabinet met today amid the uproar over the possible execution of an Afghan man who converted to Christianity. Western nations have been leaning on the Afghan government to release him. But many Afghans believe he should be killed. Here's CNN's Tim Lifter.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TIM LIFTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a case that has tested Afghanistan's credentials as emerging democracy and giving President Hamid Karzai a dilemma he'd rather do without.
Forty-one year old Abdul Rahman admitted to converting to Christianity 16 years ago, while an aid worker in neighboring Pakistan. He returned to Afghanistan only recently. His family tipped off officials that he's converted. Prosecutors in Kabul say he was guilty of apostacy and should be executed.
At Friday prayers in the Afghan capital, senior clerics agreed.
At Harati (ph) mosque, Said Astni Mosni (ph) tells followers that Abdul Rahman was once a good man, but he turned has back against God and turned against humanity. So he must be executed.
A view that's echoed by cleric and Islamic scholar, Mohammed Iaz (ph)
"It's the law of all constitutions Islamic countries," he says, "in the constitutions of Egypt, Iran and Saudi Arabia. It's clear that the man who converts must be killed.
And he as a more general warning for Western groups working in Afghanistan.
"If these people are here to convert the Afghans to other religions," he tells followers," then they don't have any place Afghanistan. They must go."
The cleric's view is echoed on the streets of Kabul.
Encourage by onlookers, this university student says, Abdul Rahman should be punished and the death penalty is a lesson for anyone considering abandoning Islam. Another Kabul resident agrees. Adding, we want to see him dead.
Responding to growing international pressure that Abdul Rahman should be freed, the supreme court judge trying the case insists the court will not bound to the influence of anybody. The Afghan government faces the challenge of responding to that pressure from allies like the United States and Australia while not appearing weak to a domestic audience. Economy Minister Mohammad Amin Farhang acknowledged the stakes were high.
MOHAMMAD AMIN FARHANG, AFGHAN ECONOMY MINISTER (through translator): The isolation of Afghanistan will not only destroy the great example of democracy in this developing country, but would also open the way once again for terrorists.
LIFTER: Unable to reconcile Islamic law with the principle of freedom of religion, the government is trying to find a way out of crisis. CNN has learned options including Abdul Rahman to declare mentally unfit to stand trial, or deported because he has a German passport. Tim Lifter, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Some call him a hero or even a modern-day Robinhood, but could this Mississippi sheriff one day be labeled a criminal? Up next, what he did in the days following Hurricane Katrina that has gotten him in trouble with the law.
Also you're looking at live pictures out of Charlotte, North Carolina, where about -- estimates are about 2,000 demonstrators there rallying in support, actually, of a Senate Judiciary bill would that give illegal immigrants some temporary worker status.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: After Hurricane Katrina, many people suffered for days without supplies. But a Mississippi sheriff refused to sit back and do nothing. He gave an order that made him a hero to his people, and maybe a criminal to the feds. CNN's Sean Callebs has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Sheriff Billy McGee is a local hero in Hattiesburg, Mississippi. His story, a modern twist on Robinhood. He robbed from the federal government to give to the needy in his county. It was six days after Katrina. Sweltering heat, steamy desperation, no food, no water, and no end in sight. So the sheriff and his merry men hijack 24 huge FEMA trucks loaded with ice. Like any good hero, McGee doesn't like to talk much about what happened.
SHERIFF BILLY MCGEE, FORREST COUNTY, MISSISSIPPI: Just that at some point that we can see at the end of the road that this passes.
CALLEBS: The ice was under lock and key at nearby by Camp Shelby. McGee gave his deputies orders to take the trucks and when a National Guardsman tried to stop them, the sheriff had the soldier handcuffed. And they drove off with the government's ice and dolled it out to those this need. A dream story for the local newspaper.
RICH CAMPBELL, "HATTIESBURG AMERICAN": It's one of those stories that just, it almost has a life of its own, because you have a small-town sheriff who took on the federal government basically, for the good of his people.
CALLEBS: And for that, the sheriff may get prosecuted by the government. But locals remember the relentless despair after the storm and haven't forgotten the sheriff's actions. A newspaper poll showed nearly 88 percent of the county residents don't want McGee prosecuted. Reports said he had worked out a plea bargain but then the U.S. attorney in Jackson, Mississippi recused himself, because he's a former National Guardsman. Now the case is with the U.S. Attorney in Baton Rouge, who is deciding whether to pursue charges.
CAMPBELL: That doesn't sit well with people here, especially people in south Mississippi, who live through the frustration and the incompetence, if I could be so bold, of the federal government.
CALLEBS: As much as McGee wants the attention to go away, it won't. Bumper stickers have propped off and already they have a folk song to honor their folk hero.
MALE SINGER: There was a hurricane in Hattiesburg, so he didn't think twice Sheriff McGee was hauling ice.
CALLEBS: And it's also good fodder for lunch chat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would have probably done the same thing if I would have been in his shoes, you know? We were hurting up in here for a while.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stepped up and did something for the people. That's it.
CALLEBS: McGee is a four-term sheriff. And many here would like him run again. Arguing his career should not come to an end over this. A sheriff that's more popular than ever after become a modern day Robinhood. Sean Callebs, CNN, Hattiesburg, Mississippi.
(END VIDEOTAPE) LIN: Out there the calendar says spring, but strange weather is clouding paradise and Hawaii is not the only place where a winter storm is brewing. So let's turn to CNN Meteorologist Bonnie Schneider with the weather.
(WEATHER FORECAST)
LIN: All right, are teenager's sleeping habits set them up to fail? Coming up at 6 p.m. Eastern, why sleeping in could be good for your kid's health. But first we will show you some jewelry that needs help staying in place.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Authorities in the Lone Star state cracked down on public intoxication. Now that's just one of the stories in our "Watercooler" which is really a compilation like some of the weirdest stories we have seen all week. So here is this week's edition of our "Watercooler."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As mobile homes go, this one is way beyond double wide. A couple bought the aging Victorian monster $1, and then paid $120,000 for the slow, troublesome move three miles down the road. If they think that was an expensive headache, wait till they start the renovations.
Speaking of which, here's a home furnishing that just screams ASCII. The custom woven rugs feature computer code as the motif. It's pricey, though, a 6 by 8 rug costs as much as a high-end PC.
From room covering to 'shroom coveting. The Chanterelles mushroom is so prized a gourmet delicacy, California authorities say poachers, are sprouting like, well, like mushrooms after rain. Rustlers are even using GPS devices to locate the exotic morsels, which only grow in the wild.
Not wild enough? Well, this could be the latest fashion accessory for teens into the gothic look. The Roach Brooch even has a chain to keep the buggers from run away. Perhaps jewel encrusted scorpions and spiders are next?
Here's an idea sure to turn heads. It's the opposite of a vanity tag. A California lawmaker wants the scarlet license plate mandatory for repeat DUI offenders.
A license to laugh.
RONNIE KHALIL, COMEDIAN: My dad's accident completely ruined my life. Like he would always tell me to find the girl with the three Bs, brains, beauty and "butt-inality" -- yeah, see, I tell that to an American crowd, they're laughing. I say it to the M Middle Eastern crowd, they're like, yes, yes, the advice is perfect. What is the problem? I don't know. I don't understand. Thursday night's show by Muslim comedians at New York's Improv was aimed at countering some of the negative stereotypes about Arab- Americans since 9/11.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: There you go. Now, coming up, two young men who are challenging stereotypes about young black fathers. In the next hour, you'll meet the men behind "Fatherhood" magazine and see how they are building more than just the bottom line.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
