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Elon Musk: Apple Threatening To Remove Twitter App; Rural AZ County Delays Certifying Results, Defying Deadline; Ex-DHS Chief: Kari Lake "Playing With Fire" By Not Conceding Race. Aired 8-8:30a ET
Aired November 29, 2022 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:00:00]
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Right, looking out for me.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: A lot of movement for 7:00 a.m. in the morning.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: That was at 6:00.
HARLOW: It was 6:00 a.m. hour. No one puts Baby in a corner.
COLLINS: No one puts Poppy in a corner.
HARLOW: That's all I'm saying. We'll get the lift right next time, right?
LEMON: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
COLLINS: All right, and CNN THIS MORNING continues right now.
LEMON: So glad that you could join us on this Tuesday morning, November 29th. Welcome, everyone, to CNN THIS MORNING. Good morning to you. A lot to get to. Geopolitical tensions rising ahead of today's big World Cup showdown between the U.S. and Iran. New details about the threats hanging over the Iranian players straight ahead.
HARLOW: And two tech giants on a collision course. Elon Musk claiming he received a threat from Apple that could crush Twitter. We'll explain.
COLLINS: And a rural county is delaying certifying the midterm results. We'll talk about whether or not election denialism is still alive and well in Arizona. We're also going to talk about that with Jeh Johnson, former Homeland Security secretary under President Obama.
But we begin this morning with soccer and a geopolitical showdown that could be just hours away with the U.S. and Iran set to play a do or die World Cup match. CNN has learned that Iran's players have been warned by their government to, quote, behave if they don't want their families tortured and potentially imprisoned. That warning coming after the Iranian team refused to sing its national anthem before a match against England last week, as you'll recall. Meanwhile, an aggressive Iranian media asking the U.S. men's team captain what it was like to represent a country, and I'm quoting the reporter now, "that has discrimination within its own borders." Listen to his response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You say you support the Iranian people, but you're pronouncing our country's name wrong. Our country is named Iran, not I-ran. Please once and for all, let's get this clear.
TYLER ADAMS, CAPTAIN, U.S. MEN'S NATIONAL SOCCER TEAM: My apologies on the mispronunciation of your country. Yes, that being said, there is discrimination everywhere you go. One thing that I've learned especially from living abroad in the past years and having to fit in in different cultures and kind of assimilate into different cultures is that in the U.S. we're continuing to make progress every single day.
Obviously it takes longer to understand, and through education I think it's super important, like you just educated me now on the pronunciation of your country. So, yes, it's a process. I think as long as you see progress, that's the most important thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: For perspective on that answer is Bob Ley. He was an on air broadcaster for seven World Cups for ESPN including the last time the U.S. and Iran faced each other in the tournament. That was in France in 1998. He's also the executive founder of Seton Hall University's Center for Sports Media. Bob, thank you for joining us this morning, but I just want to get you to start on that answer from Tyler Adams. That was a powerful response, I thought.
BOB LEY, BROADCASTER FOR SEVEN WORLD CUPS INCLUDING USA VERSUS IRAN IN 1998: Wow. Remember, this young professional from Wappinger Falls, New York, is 23 years of age. And I got to tell you, just as an American sports fan, I was very proud of the way he handled that. But it also just shows you the atmosphere in that room in Doha, the animus, the aggressiveness in the questioning, because Gregg Berhalter, the U.S. national team coach, was asked about the positioning of U.S. warships in that area and why didn't he ask the U.S. government to have the ships -- that is the tone and tenor of what is going on. But I thought what Tyler Adams did was composed and of the moment, and it shows you why his teammates elected him captain for the World Cup.
HARLOW: You called the game, right, in 98, the Iran-U.S. game, they won two to one. But it was so different then. The players embraced at the end of it. I believe the Iranian players brought white roses as a sign of peace. Can you compare and contrast what is going on then and now?
LEY: I'll tell you, there was that mixed team picture taken in 1998. Normally if you're familiar with soccer, after the introductions and the lineups, each team lines up, they'll take separate pictures. The United States trying to diffuse this situation between the two nations, and the meeting the day before in 1998 proposed this mixed picture, which everyone then went along with.
I will tell you that the security around that game was intense. You could not get within a half mile of the stadium in Lyon without your credential and your ticket. And just before the match, a French military helicopter came down over the field and hovered just in a show of strength and support.
You saw both flags. We've heard so much about the flags in the last couple of days. The pre-revolutionary flag being waved by what they called the gold card expats, those Iranians who had left the nation before the revolution, and those waving the revolutionary flag, but they're all rooting for the same team.
[08:05:02]
It was very much charged. But that was only 19 years or so after the hostage situation. But yet, how many people have a contemporaneous memory now, I dare say some of you may not, of what happened in 1979? I'm old enough to recall that, and it still colors what is happening right now today in Doha.
LEMON: Yes. I do remember that. I'm old enough to remember that. Bob, thank you for joining us this morning. Good morning to you. By the way, I see the soccer ball over the shoulder there.
LEY: That's the ball from South Africa.
LEMON: Oh, nice. Very nice. We talked about the American team, right? But you believe that the Iranian team is under tremendous pressure and in an awkward and unique position. Talk to us about that.
LEY: We heard -- we saw what happened during the anthem playing in game one. No one sang. And then by your own reporting, which is remarkable, the threats that were levied on the players from the Revolutionary Guard. If you go back on your DVR and watch the playing of the anthem during -- before game two for the Iranians, this is a horrible use of the word, but it's almost applicable, they look like hostages. Some of them are barely moving their lips and mouthing it.
They are bearing so much pressure here, on top of the spectators as well. Reporting from the athletics, saying that there are Iranian spotters, tracking the Iranian women who are in Doha because women cannot legally attend soccer matches in Iran. I don't know that any group of players in recent memory have carried more pressure on their shoulders for off field than the Iranian player.
And to me, the question is if Iran do today eliminate the United States, who owns that victory for Iran? Will it be the regime? Will they weaponize it politically? Or will it be the protesters? So many of the players identify, of course, with the protesters on the streets of Iran, yet several of the players had a photo-op with the president of Iran before they left. So there is not a monolithic political belief, apparently, among the players, but they have intense, intense -- it is tough enough to play in the World Cup with the whole world watching, but now you know the whole world is watching and they're watching on two different levels.
COLLINS: And so much of this, we're talking about the geopolitical aspect of this, people are also watching these games. The reason these games are happening is putting all those issues at the forefront, maybe educating a lot of people and teaching a lot of people about things they weren't paying that close attention to before. But when it comes to 2:00 p.m. here today on the east coast, what do you think is going to happen with the U.S. and Iran?
LEY: Wow. It's a binary situation for the U.S. It is kind of -- and the players talked about it yesterday. They need three points. They must beat Iran. A draw won't do it. No other circumstances in the group will do it. Their fate is in their hands. And they put themselves there because they have one goal in 200 minutes of soccer. This is a generational problem for U.S. soccer, having reliable scoring on demand at the international level. And so it is today.
There are questions about the lineup. Questions about maybe some friction between Gio Reyna, the young striker from Borussia Dortmund, the son of Claudio Reyna, one of the greatest American players, who has seen only 10 minutes of action, talk that maybe he and the coach Gregg Berhalter aren't seeing eye to eye. Watch to see where he is inserted in the game, if he is inserted in the game, who will be the selection of forwards.
The United States have to come out, they have to come out aggressively. It is easy to say, but needing three points, and again, Queiroz, the Iranian coach is a master of defense. And if you want to park the bus and make it tough, put all your defensive players back and prevent it, we have seen the ability of teams just to play for a draw, and the draw is not good enough for the United States today. It is going to be a tough match.
COLLINS: We'll be looking to see if they park the bus.
LEMON: Bob, thank you, Bob. And by the way, you should get a couple more Emmys in --
HARLOW: Yes, you don't have enough.
LEMON: Yes.
LEY: Thank you. You know, thank you, I appreciate it. Good to speak with you.
LEMON: Thank you, Bob.
HARLOW: Thanks, Bob.
LEMON: Good to see you.
COLLINS: We've got some breaking news this morning, because the January 6th committee is now set to interview former White House deputy chief of staff Tony Ornato. Of course, that was the person at the center of that testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson over the summer. That's according to two sources familiar with the panel's work, what they're telling CNN. His testimony could shed new light on former President Trump's movements leading up to and around on January 6th, 2021.
CNN's Paula Reid is joining us live this morning from Washington. Paula, tell us what you're learning this morning about Tony Ornato's appearance, and we know we saw Kellyanne Conway there yesterday.
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right. Good morning, Kaitlan. Tony Ornato is potentially a key witness for the committee as it wraps up its investigation over the next few weeks. As you said, his testimony could shed light on what the former president was doing on and leading up to the insurrection. You may remember the former presidential aide Cassidy Hutchinson testified back in June that Ornato told her that Trump lashed out in anger and actually lunged at members of his protective detail as he demanded to be taken to the Capitol on January 6th.
[08:10:06]
Let's take a listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AIDE: The president reached up toward the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm, said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We're going back to the West Wing. We're not going to the Capitol. Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge toward Bobby Engel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Hutchinson's testimony has really become a key event in the timeline of Trump's movements on January 6th. And Ornato has not denied that account on the record. But a Secret Service official who would only speak on the condition of remaining anonymous told CNN that Ornato denies telling Hutchinson that the former president grabbed the wheel or his agent on his detail.
Now, Ornato has previously spoken with the committee twice, but that was before Hutchinson testified. And members of the investigative committee have long said that they want to call him back and ask him more questions. So during this virtual interview today, they will have a chance to revisit Hutchinson's testimony and really just try to nail down some of the details of this incident. And the committee is expected to wrap up its work over the next few weeks and then issue a final report detailing all the things that they have uncovered during this nearly two-year long investigation. Kaitlan?
COLLINS: Talk about having some serious follow-up questions. Paula Reid, thank you.
LEMON: It has been a chaotic 24 hours for Twitter's new CEO Elon Musk. We don't know what's going on here. Very erratic. It started with Musk posting a Pepe the frog image, a meme used by white supremacists and designated as a hate symbol by the Anti-Defamation League. So you have that. And then you have Musk sharing a bizarre photo of a gun and what he says was his bedside table along with diet cokes and a picture of George Washington crossing the Delaware. OK. And then he turned his focus to Apple, claiming the company was going to withhold Twitter from its Apple store and asking if Apple hated free speech in America. And tweeting at Apple CEO Tim Cook asking what is going on here.
Later in the day, Musk teased that he will publish what he calls the Twitter files, claiming the public deserves to know what Twitter has done in the past regarding free speech suppression.
And then finally -- I'm sure there is going to be more, though -- he posted and penned a tweet saying that "This is the battle for the future of civilization. If free speech is lost, even in America, tyranny is all that lies ahead."
HARLOW: So glad we have our colleague and friend Donie O'Sullivan here with us to talk about all of this. I -- like where do you begin? And, right, it's, like, you have to laugh, because, it's like, what else do you do? No CEO operates like this. But it's really scary, is it not, to see some of this stuff, the gun with -- what is going on?
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER: Yes. A lot going on. Let's start with Apple, because that's what's really important here. The Apple app store has a kind of quality control. So you can't just get any app on your phone. Apple vets the apps, one, to make sure there is not viruses in it that could be spying on us, but also to make sure that they don't have apps on the app store that promote hate speech or dangerous misinformation.
We saw Parler, which was a right wing social media network, getting kicked off the app store for a while last year until they cleaned up their hate speech rules. I think Twitter, Elon Musk is concerned because he is taking down all the guardrails when it comes to the rules on the platform that Apple might turn around and say, hey, we don't want you on our app store anymore. And if that happens and Twitter was essentially unavailable as an app within iPhones, that could be devastating for Twitter.
One other important point when it comes to Apple, we learned yesterday that Apple has basically stopped advertising on Twitter. And "The Washington Post" reported that Apple in the first quarter of this year was actually Twitter's biggest advertiser, spending $48 million in the first quarter alone. So you can also see another reason why Musk is taking issue at Apple.
LEMON: That's the thing here. Whether he's doing it, obviously, out of some desperation. If he's doing it for attention to try to get more eyes on Twitter. But the real issue, Donie, is that Apple is not the only one. Major advertisers are no longer advertising on Twitter, and that poses a huge problem beyond just Elon Musk for the company, the stability and the longevity of the company itself.
O'SULLIVAN: Absolutely. And look, speaking of kind of tearing apart the whole rule book that Twitter had these few years, we just learned overnight, and I want to show you this screenshot from Twitter's website, they are no longer enforcing their COVID-19 misinformation policy.
[08:15:00]
Since 2020, Twitter has been working, they were definitely not always perfect. And there was a lot of misinformation about COVID, about the vaccines on the platform. But there was rules in place and policies in place. We learned that that is no more, that is no longer happening at Twitter. And that, again, might be another reason why Apple might say, hey, we don't want you to have us on -- we don't want to have you on our app store.
Finally, under that policy, according to Twitter's own numbers, since 2020, Twitter suspended 11,000 accounts for sharing COVID misinformation. It's very possible that a lot of those accounts we're going to see coming back onto the platform. And one final thing, guys, the reason why I'm here in Florida other than working on my tan, is that we're about to hear today from a Twitter employee, Yoel Roth, who was in charge of writing a lot of these rules. He left the company a few weeks ago, he basically couldn't work under Elon Musk anymore. And he's about to speak out at a conference here in Florida a little later today.
LEMON: All right.
COLLINS: It's absolutely remarkable, a clash between the world's richest man and the most valuable public company.
HARLOW: That's a great way to put it. It's amazing.
COLLINS: Donie O'Sullivan, we know that you'll stay on it. We'll check back in with you on updates.
LEMON: And your tan.
COLLINS: And the tan.
HARLOW: And the tan.
COLLINS: Not so sure about that one. Election denialism is on full display in Arizona this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm the chief election denier. I'm the person who talks about as far as a conspiracy theorist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is vote trafficking at its finest. I've seen the criminal element. You are vote traffickers. You are a vote trafficker. Criminal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: But did the efforts of the people you hear from their stop the certification of the state's election work? We'll talk about that.
LEMON: And coming up, we will talk to the former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson about that and the state of America. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[08:20:51]
COLLINS: All right, in Arizona, Democrat and the Governor-elect Katie Hobbs is now suing one of the counties after officials voted to delay the certification of the November Midterm election results, citing concerns about voting machines and effectively denying or defying a deadline that had been set by the state. This comes as prominent election deniers in Arizona like Hobbs's former opponent, Kari Lake have still yet to conspeed (PH) -- concede their respective races. About 200 miles away, the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors voted unanimously to certify the results. It was not without fierce and sometimes a little bizarre resistance from constituents who confronted the board like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I came here today to get an up close and personal look at the seven traitors to the United States Constitution --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Again, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- are sitting at that desk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is vote trafficking at its finest. I've seen the criminal element. You are vote traffickers. You are a vote trafficker. Criminal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If this election is certified, the only parties that will benefit from this are the cartels.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All your dealings are crooked. You give justice in exchange for bribes. These men are born sinners, lying from their earliest words. They're poisonous deadly snakes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dominion machine. You guys know they're dangerous, you know, they're corrupt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm the chief election denier. I'm the person he talks about as far as a conspiracy theorist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: All of those claims are baseless, many of them are false. But it's important to show you that because as CNN's Sunlen Serfaty is following this story, this is effectively delaying a lot of this process. So, Sunlen, what more do you know this morning about what is playing out in Arizona?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Typically, a very routine procedural process, election results usually are certified in the states without any issue. But what's happening in Arizona right now really does show how election denialism is fueling chaos in some places. You had that video in Maricopa where you have Kari Lake refusing to concede. She has pointed to problems with printers at some voting centers. Problems, notably that the county ultimately found did not prevent people from voting, but those unfounded claims they drove out those voters you saw in those clips yesterday hour after hour, they were sounding off heckling the election board, they're calling them traitors as they tried to move forward, and ultimately did there with the certification.
And then in Cochise County, county supervisors there yesterday, they voted to outright delay certification. They missed the legal deadline there. That threw an immediate lawsuit the same day yesterday from Arizona Secretary of State Katie Hobbs, who of course, is projected to win her race for governor there. This pushes back certification there until at least Friday. Of course, Kaitlan, all of this underscore the -- that continued grip that election conspiracy theorists have on some voters, and notably as well as some Republicans sway over those voters, and stoking that distrust.
COLLINS: Yes. And no place is better seen than in Arizona, where they did, we should note, reject an election denier in many places on the ticket. Sunlen Serfaty, thanks for that report.
SERFATY: Thanks.
LEMON: I want to talk about all of this now with the former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, also previously the Defense Department General Counsel, and now a partner at Paul, Weiss. Thank you so much for joining this morning. Really appreciate it.
JEH JOHNSON, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Glad to be here, Don.
LEMON: So, you saw the report from Sunlen, you saw what's happening in Arizona there. All of this election denialism. What do you think? I'm sure it bothers you?
JOHNSON: Well, first, I have to tell you about an amazing coincidence. Tyler Adams, the captain of the U.S. Soccer Team in Doha right now is from Wappingers Falls, New York, and a graduate of Roy C. Ketcham High School. I'm from Wappingers Falls, New York and a graduate of Roy C. Ketcham High School. So, the biggest shout out. Roy C. Ketcham has ever received on CNN, I'm sure. Just before I left office, as Secretary of DHS, Don, in January 2017, I declared election infrastructure to be critical infrastructure in this country. Over the objections of a lot of people, I'm glad I did it. The Trump administration reaffirmed it. Since then, a lot of good work has been put into the security around our election systems.
[08:25:10]
In Washington, you have to repeat yourself 100 times before anybody listens to you, before anybody gets the message. The reality is that we have rising voter participation in this country, which is good. In the face of the challenges of COVID in the 2020 election, the incidence of ballot fraud, theft, misidentify, the nearest round number percentage is zero. Our elections today are as secure as they ever have been, in part because of a lot of the good work that's been done just over the last several years to secure our elections, to secure our democracy. In Arizona. I believe Kari Lake is playing with fire. I believe that those who foment grievance, discontent, anger, in the face of a lot of contrary evidence, do make violence inevitable in this country.
LEMON: But Kari Lake is not alone. This is not in a -- Arizona is not in a vacuum. And you said it's the most secure elections. And we know that to be the truth. We know that to be facts. Look at what's happening with social media, what's happening with Twitter, what happened with the former president, what happened with Kari Lake. Yet those lies and that misinformation spreads. And you have people like the people in Arizona and all over this country believing it. So, now what? What do you do?
JOHNSON: Arizona is the focal point right now. And people really do listen to their leaders. People really do listen to those with the microphone, those with the public voice. And those who tap into suspicion, conspiracy theories, grievance, are playing with fire, and do among the deranged within us, who live within us, make violence inevitable in my view.
LEMON: I want to talk to you about what the former FDI director -- or the FBI director, excuse me, Christopher Wray says, and the election lies the anti-government extremism. Because the current DHS Secretary Mayorkas, the FBI director Christopher Wray, is saying that domestic violent extremism is the most lethal terrorism threat in this country right now. When you bring light to that, people don't like to hear it. When I talk -- you know, I've talked about this for years now. And for bringing it up, people will say, why are you doing this, Don? You're being racist about the threat of terror. It's foreign terrorism. It's not domestic terrorism. It's not right.
JOHNSON: Well, there's nothing racist about a fact-based conclusion. We've tracked terrorism now in this country for decades going back to 9/11. When I was General Counsel of the Department of Defense, our principal terrorist threat to the homeland was foreign-based, ISIS, al-Qaeda. Then, we evolved to what we refer to as foreign-inspired terrorists, where someone here in the U.S. is inspired by an overseas terrorist organization. Now, as tracked by the Anti-Defamation League and others, the principal terrorist threat is domestic-based violent extremism. And it's a fact, it's reality. If you just look at the incidence of what we refer to as terrorism over the last five, six years, that is the case.
LEMON: I wanted -- can we talk about what happened with the former president, former President Trump meeting with an antisemite, a Holocaust denier Nick Fuentes at the White House last week at his home -- excuse me, not the White House. Excuse me -- at Mar-a-Lago, at his home. Kanye West as well, he's made his own anti-semitic statements. Why do you think this is so significant to all of our politics to have a former President meeting and having dinner with a known anti-semite, and then making excuses for it?
JOHNSON: I feel like I've seen this playbook before from Donald Trump. Outrage, calling for a ban on Muslims immigrating to the United States, for example, in 2015. While many of us are offended, outraged, he is playing to his base in a certain -- to a certain extent. I feel like I've seen this before. He's ramping up his presidential campaign. He wants attention. It seems the Donald Trump's strategy is any level of attention is good attention from his standpoint. He gets us talking about controversy again. Of course, it's outrageous. Of course.
JOHNSON: The excuse for him, though, is that I did not know who Nick Fuentes was. I don't know who's coming into my own home. By the way, which is under investigation now for classified documents. What is the --
JOHNSON: Just like he didn't know who David Duke was. He had never heard of the Klan. He had never heard of this group or that group, didn't know anything about the Proud Boys supposedly.
[08:30:00]
