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Nicholas Kristof is Interviewed about China; Musk Goes from Liberal Hero to Conservative Hero; Roscoe Orman is Interviewed about the Life of Bob McGrath; Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired December 05, 2022 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Will break it down for you.

And a beloved figure on "Sesame Street" has died. Bob McGrath was an original cast member. Ahead, we're going to speak to his long-time co- star and friend who played Gordon on "Sesame Street," Roscoe Orman.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: But first, we've learned that Apple is acceleration its plans to move production out of China as protests and riots intensify in response to the country's zero Covid policies. That is according to a new report in "The Wall Street Journal." And now Apple supplier Foxconn says it is, quote, gradually restoring production capacity at that sprawling campus in central China.

Anger boiled over into those violent protests at the world's largest iPhone factory. Workers protested unfair treatment, dirty living conditions, chaotic Covid rules, and much more at the factor.

And video obtained by CNN shows a group of police in white hazmat suits beating workers with batons and metal rods. Analysts estimate this factory makes about half of Apple's iPhones.

Let's talk about China and a lot more. We're happy to be joined this morning by "New York Times" columnist Nick Kristof. Of course, he was the "New York Time's" bureau chief in Beijing in 1989 and won a Pulitzer for his coverage of the Tiananmen democracy movement in China.

So, thank you.

And let's being in China.

NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Good to be with you.

HARLOW: You have, having covered Tiananmen, having been the bureau chief, perspective that very few do. How is what is happening in China now different?

KRISTOF: So, these protests are maybe the most important since Tiananmen in 1989.

HARLOW: Yes.

KRISTOF: But they are not the same at level. I mean they were in more than 300 cities and they were not repressed because there was a leadership vacuum, because there was paralysis in leadership. These have been -- you know, there was an immediate move to crush them. And China's surveillance is better than ever. I think it's hard for people to see how these take off and the way that those at Tiananmen did.

But, you know, they certainly do underscore the - just the resentment that people all over China have toward the way the government --

HARLOW: And the bravery of some to speak out. One, you know, without a mask speaking to our Selina Wang, face, you know, covered though last week, but because they have just reached the end of the rope.

KRISTOF: They've reached the boiling point.

HARLOW: Yes.

KRISTOF: I think a lot of people. But the government is already arresting people, is already detaining them, is calling - it has, you know, great facial recognition systems. It's calling on people and asking them why they were out in the streets and people will pay a real price for this.

HARLOW: You wrote about this in your column this weekend and you wrote, China's zero Covid policy is synonymous with Xi. He owns it. The Chinese who denounce Covid lockdowns know they are criticizing Xi. So it speaks to the bravery that they have to do it.

Do -- every single U.S. official on any news program is constantly asked about this and they're sort of towing the line in their statements. Antony Blinken was asked about it a lot yesterday. Would it make a difference if the U.S. came out more forcefully in support of these particular protests, not just saying we always believe in the right of people to protest?

KRISTOF: I understand the caution of officials in siding with particular protesters about Covid policy.

HARLOW: Yes.

KRISTOF: But I think we can speak much more forcefully about the way China has repressed protests, is arresting people for peaceful expression of their views, for trying to congregate, for expressing online comments. And I think we owe it to them, owe it to democracy, we owe it to our values and we probably owe it to our interests to speak out more about that kind of repression in China, and, for that matter, in Iran as well.

HARLOW: Before we get to Ukraine, let's listen to what the deputy secretary of state, Wendy Sherman, said when she was asked about the potential for war. Here she was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WENDY SHERMAN, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: I think war is potentially possible because Xi Jinping now has absolute control in China.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was really startling to hear. What do you think?

KRISTOF: Yes. I mean she was talking -- the context was, she was talking about China and --

HARLOW: The United States.

KRISTOF: Look, there is - there's certainly been a lot of concern about a spark in the South China Sea, or even more likely in the Taiwan Strait, over the next five years. I think most people put that at maybe a 10 percent to 20 percent risk. But a real, non-zero risk. And you try to think of the most cataclysmic thing that could happen to the world over the next 10 or 20 years, that might be the most plausible tail (ph) risk that we have that would be devastating to both countries, to the world economy.

HARLOW: And the -- to put the context more clearly, she was talking about the United States - or China and Taiwan. But we have heard what Biden has said now four times about what the United States would do, how it would respond should China invade Taiwan.

KRISTOF: And we have to be, I think, very cautious because, on the one hand, the U.S. expressing a willingness to back up Taiwan does perhaps create a deterrent effect -

HARLOW: Right.

KRISTOF: And reduces the risk that China moves on Taiwan. It may also increase the possibility that Taiwan's leaders, especially after the next presidential election, pursue a more aggressive policy towards independence and engage in provocative behavior.

[08:35:08]

HARLOW: Yes.

KRISTOF: So, there's a very fine balancing act that we have to pursue.

HARLOW: Let's talk about Ukraine. You just came back from Ukraine. Your father grew up in Ukraine. We have a photo we'd like to show of you and your dad in 2014. This is the two of you in Ukraine.

And then we also have this image of you interviewing a young man who was in a bombed out apartment building. And here's what you write. At a time when the United States is so divided, Ukraine feels the opposite. There's a passionate, uplifting, leveling unity here and it is one reason Vladimir Putin may be in trouble.

What did you see that we don't talk about enough, that doesn't make the headlines?

KRISTOF: People in Ukraine are certainly suffering. They, you know, lost heat, they've lost electricity, in many cases they've lost water. What maybe doesn't always come through is just the passionate determination of people to resist. It is not breaking their will.

I talked to a young man who, on the front lines was shot. He lost his entire left arm at the shoulder. He now has a prosthesis. He is returning to the army to fight back. And, you know, his wife initially thought he was completely crazy.

HARLOW: Yes.

KRISTOF: After they got blackout, she said - she understood why he wants to go back and fight with one arm.

HARLOW: And I have to ask you about the women. You've got nearly 60,000 women in the Ukrainian armed forces.

KRISTOF: That surprised me. You know, Ukraine is, frankly, a pretty sexist traditional country. And there are almost 60,000 women who have enlisted to go fight. The Ukrainian army didn't even have standard uniforms for women and yet now they're making them. I have talked to one young woman, a 26-year-old woman whose fiance was killed on the front, and then she volunteered and enlisted. And I asked her, you know, what are you doing out here? And she said, they killed the man I love. I -- where else can I be?

PHH: Yes. Wow.

KRISTOF: And it, you know, that passion on the part of women, it is going to change Ukraine, I think, the role those women are playing.

HARLOW: Thank you for bringing us these stories in your reporting.

Nicholas Kristof, we appreciate it very much.

KRISTOF: Good to be with you.

HARLOW: Good to be with you.

Also I want to point people to this, quickly. This annual holiday giving gift of little known organizations working to make the world a better place. We'll pull it up on the screen. It's kristofimpact.org where people can see much more. There it is.

Don.

LEMON: Thanks, Poppy. Thanks, Nicholas. Appreciate that.

Coming up, Elon Musk has gone from a liberal hero to a conservative one. We're going to tell you what this morning's number is straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:41:47]

LEMON: Elon Musk says he is leaning more and more to the right, and the new owner of Twitter is becoming one of the right's favorites.

Here with this morning's numbers, CNN's senior data reporter Harry Enten.

Hello to you. Good morning to you.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Good morning.

LEMON: So, what is it, Republicans are liking this Musk Twitter takeover, right?

ENTEN: They love Elon Musk.

So, take a look here. This is an NBC News poll, view of Musk after buying Twitter. Republicans versus Democrats. Look at the positive on Musk among Republicans, 53 percent. Just 9 percent of Democrats have a favorable view of Musk. The vast majority, 64 percent, have a negative view of Musk. This is like the type of split that you might see of a Republican politician, maybe Donald Trump in his early days running for president.

Compare this to where we were back in 2017, back when the Tesla Model 3 launched. Look here, favorable, Democrats versus Republicans.

LEMON: Wow.

ENTEN: Republicans, 37 percent, but Democrats were at 47 percent. Democrats actually viewed Musk more favorably back then. And keep in mind, of course, when it comes to electric cars, which is what Musk used to really be known for, that along with SpaceX, 65 percent of Democrats favor phasing out gas-powered cars versus just 17 percent of the GOP. So, as Musk has gone back to being, you know, more of the Twitter guy than being the electric car guy, the views have certainly changed around.

LEMON: Any of these numbers explain why and how he has become so polarizing?

ENTEN: Yes, so, you know, look at social media, right? Social media companies should take an active role in monitoring speech. Fifty-five percent of Republicans disagree with that. Just 39 percent agree. Among Democrats, 83 percent agree that social media companies should take an active role in monitoring speech, which, of course, is something that Elon Musk really doesn't like.

And take a look here. Internet free speech. The internet should be a free speech zone where speech should be uncensored. Sixty-five percent of Republicans agree with that, agree with Musk on that. Fifty-nine percent of Democrats disagree with that, that the internet should not be a free speech zone. So, essentially, Musk's views on how the internet should be and how free speech should be line up much more with Republicans than they do line up with Democrats.

You have an interesting look on your face.

LEMON: Quizzical look because it's - it's not -- I don't know if it's necessarily free speech because free speech comes with consequences. And I think some people just don't like the consequences of the - of the so-called free speech, right? ENTEN: I just go back to this, right, social media companies should

take an active role in monitoring speech. Most Republicans disagree with that. Most Democrats agree with that. I think that's really it.

LEMON: Yes.

Thank you, Harry.

ENTEN: Thank you.

LEMON: Appreciate it.

Poppy.

HARLOW: All right, coming up, we will remember the late Bob McGrath, an original cast member of "Sesame Street." His co-star, Roscoe Orman, he's here to tell us about his friend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB MCGRATH: Why don't we do that song about the people in your neighborhood?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'd rather not, actually.

MCGRATH: Oh, come on, it's a nice song.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, OK, but you start off.

MCGRATH: All right, I'll start off.

MCGRATH (singing): Well, now, who are the people in your neighborhood, in your neighborhood, in your neighborhood. Say, who -

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:48:47]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OSCAR THE GROUCH, "SESAME STREET": Oh, no. Not that song again. Please.

BOB MCGRATH, "SESAME STREET" (singing): Oh, oh, who are the people in your neighborhood, in your neighborhood, in your neighborhood. Say, who are the people in your neighborhood.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, I'm sure even Oscar would love to hear that song from that voice one more time. "Sesame Street" is a little quieter this morning as fans around the world remember one of the show's original cast members, Bob McGrath. McGrath's family confirmed that he passed away peacefully at his home on Sunday. He played Bob Johnson on "Sesame Street" going back all the way to the pilot episode in 1969. He was on the show for 47 seasons, remained a part of the "Sesame Street" family after leaving the cast in 2017. He was 90 years old and leaves behind a wife, five children and eight grandchildren.

We are so happy to be joined now by co-star and longtime friend of Bob McGrath, Roscoe Orman. He played Gordon Robinson on "Sesame Street."

And, Don, take it away because you were like almost in tears when he was coming up here.

LEMON: Because of what -- listen, for a lot of reasons, and a lot of folks, too, what "Sesame Street" meant to me as a child, I mean, and still even as an adult.

[08:50:03]

And you and Bob shaped my childhood. And I want to thank you for it.

ROSCOE ORMAN, PLAYED "SESAME STREET" CHARACTER GORDON ROBINSON: Well, thank you. Thank you for that compliment.

It's -- I'm still absorbing, you know, the fact that he is - he's no longer with us. But it was - he was such an incredible talent. He was - he was an original member of "Sing Along with Mitch." I don't know if you -- that goes even beyond -- or it was much earlier than "Sesame Street," "Sing Along with Mitch." And he also toured in Japan quite often.

HARLOW: He learned Japanese, right?

ORMAN: He learned Japan - he learned to speak Japanese.

HARLOW: They were such fans.

ORMAN: And -- yes, they were.

HARLOW: Yes.

ORMAN: They were. They loved Bob Morugoloa (ph) - or I forget how to pronounce in Japanese.

HARLOW: Yes.

ORMAN: But, yes, he was a superstar in Japan as well. But, what a loss.

HARLOW: Yes.

LEMON: What a loss, you're right. I want to talk more about him. And you think about - look, in the '60s, I grew up when "Sesame Street" was three, I think. It was three years after I was born. And then you came along with the '70s and you guys really changed people's lives. Were you and Bob -- do you think you guys were aware of that as you were doing it, because this was like brand-new television.

ORMAN: Well, yes, it didn't -- it wasn't long before we realized that "Sesame Street" was very special and something very different than most children's shows.

LEMON: They would -- I mean, they would play it in my nursery and kindergarten classes.

ORMAN: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

HARLOW: Do you know what my mom calls and says about the kids, she's worried that what's on TV for the kids these days isn't nearly as good as "Sesame Street." My kids are four and six. And there's too much violence, even in some of the cartoons. And she -- every day, are Sinisa and Lucca watching "Sesame Street"? Are Sinisa and Lucca - I mean that's the impact you had on Don's childhood, my childhood.

LEMON: Yes.

HARLOW: What we want for our kids. And, yes, they are, mom, my kids are watching the reruns.

ORMAN: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, you know, we raised our kids on "Sesame Street." As a matter of fact, all five of my children were on the show with us. And, you know, it was just such a wonderful, wonderful time. Yes.

LEMON: What should we know about Bob?

ORMAN: Well, Bob was quite talented and quite, you know, a force before "Sesame Street." You know, he toured in Japan quite regularly and, yes, he -- he had quite an impact on, you know, on the show. He was, as you said, an original member of the show.

HARLOW: Yes.

ORMAN: Along with Loretta Long and a few others. But, yes, he had such a wonderful, kind spirit, you know, and a great talent as a singer.

HARLOW: Yes.

ORMAN: And he was -- he was a member of "Sing Along with Mitch." I don't know if that -- that goes way before your time, I'm sure.

HARLOW: One of the things he said in -- a few years ago that was at -- one of his main takeaways from the show is how important it is -- these are his words -- "Sesame Street" taught him how important it is to listen, to really listen carefully to what your children have to say.

ORMAN: Yes. Yes.

HARLOW: They're wise, aren't they, our kids?

ORMAN: Yes, they are. They are. Yes, there had never been a show that targeted that kind of, you know, information or education for preschoolers, you know. So, it was groundbreaking. And I was - I just couldn't believe that I was able to join the company and be a long -- long-time member of the show.

LEMON: What a great fortune, right? I mean, yes.

ORMAN: Oh, yes. Just incredible. I had no idea that I would be on a children's show. You know, I had done some other -- quite a few other kinds of performance that were not for kids. But "Sesame Street" was very special. There was nothing like it ever before.

LEMON: Well, Roscoe, we're so happy that you could come in.

ORMAN: Yes.

HARLOW: Yes.

LEMON: And to remember your friend, Bob McGrath.

ORMAN: Yes.

LEMON: Ninety years old.

ORMAN: Ninety years old.

LEMON: One of the originals to "Sesame Street."

HARLOW: What a life.

ORMAN: Yes.

LEMON: And thank you for what you do.

ORMAN: Well, thank you.

LEMON: Appreciate it.

ORMAN: Thank you for - for having me.

HARLOW: Thank you.

LEMON: Thanks so much.

Coming up, just in, there's a new clip from the "Harry and Meghan" documentary and we're going to talk about -- it talks about, quote, pain and suffering.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:59:13]

LEMON: So, this is just into CNN. Netflix just released a new "Harry and Meghan" documentary trailer. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a hierarchy of the family. You know, there's leaking, but there's also planting of stories.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a war against Meghan to suit other people's agendas. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's about hatred. It's about race.

PRINCE HARRY: It's a dirty game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Hmm.

HARLOW: Wow.

LEMON: The trailer also said that there was pain and suffering, women marrying into this institution Harry continues to say that he didn't want history to repeat itself.

What did you think?

HARLOW: Obviously we're -- well, history of losing his mother, Diana, and all that she faced.

LEMON: Yes. Yes. It's -- people are so interested in them. I think they - obviously, I know they've garnered more attention --

HARLOW: Than?

LEMON: Than William and Kate.

[09:00:00]

HARLOW: They're so -- it's brave to put yourself out there like that. I can't wait to see it.

LEMON: Yes.

HARLOW: OK. Thanks.

LEMON: It's good to see.

HARLOW: We'll be back here with Kaitlan. We feel like we're missing an appendage. Kaitlan, come back.

LEMON: Tomorrow.

HARLOW: See you all tomorrow.

LEMON: You can see her. She'll be on the air tomorrow.

You guys have a great day. Thanks for joining us.

HARLOW: CNN "NEWSROOM" is now.

[09:00:00]