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DOJ Seeks To Hold Trump In Contempt Over Classified Documents; Griner Lands In U.S. As Biden Administration Vows To Continue Whelan Talks; Lava Flow Stalls, No Longer Threatening Main Hawaii Highway. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired December 09, 2022 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: In this courthouse, there is going to be a federal judge holding a hearing. This hearing is going to be under seal. We don't believe we're going to be able to see anything or hear anything. We may see the lawyers walk in and walk out, and that's it.
But what the judge will be considering today is whether or not to hold Donald Trump and the office of the former president in contempt of court for not satisfying this long-running subpoena to get these documents back. One of the possible consequences here, Poppy and Kaitlan, is that he could be fined. We have seen that in the past related to the Trump Organization.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. It comes after those searches of his properties. It's just amazing.
So, Katelyn, though, as we're watching to see what's actually going to happen in that courthouse behind you today, we're also learning more about what's happening with the January 6 committee. They're staring down this deadline. They have to make a decision about criminal referrals to the Justice Department. And now we've learned they may be considering more people than we initially believed.
What is the latest on that?
POLANTZ: Right. The count right now is that they were looking at -- or they are looking at potentially making a criminal referral related to Donald Trump, but there are four others that they are also considering potentially making criminal referrals on.
So this is the winddown phase of the House select committee investigation into January 6. And essentially, this is the handoff that they're trying to make to the Justice Department as the Justice Department criminal investigation continues around the 2020 election.
Those four people that the House may make criminal referrals on -- Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark, Rudy Giuliani. So it's four of the closest advisers around Donald Trump wanting to block the turnover of the presidency. Now, they haven't decided yet and, of course, the Justice Department doesn't actually need Congress to tell them who to investigate -- Kaitlan and Poppy.
COLLINS: No, but it could put pressure on them.
Katelyn Polantz, thank you.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Brittney Griner is home at last, but another American, former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan, was not part of this prisoner swap. We're going to talk about why and what could possibly get him out with the former defense secretary under President Trump, Mark Esper. He is here in studio.
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:36:04]
COLLINS: Brittney Griner now back in the United States, touching down earlier this morning after 10 months of wrongful detention in Russia.
The Biden administration is now facing questions though, as she returns, about whether or not the trade was lopsided. A significant compromise here -- an athlete who was convicted for having less than a gram of hash oil in exchange for a notorious arms dealer who was convicted of conspiracy to kill Americans.
Paul Whelan, a former Marine who has been in Russian custody for four years, was left out of the deal entirely. He remains in Russia, something he says he doesn't understand.
We'll talk about whether or not Russia got the better end of the deal here with Mark Esper, the Defense secretary under President Trump. And that's really been a big question here -- is just how big of a compromise the U.S. was willing to make to get Brittney Griner back home.
What is your sense of it?
MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, AUTHOR, "A SACRED OATH: MEMOIRS OF A SECRETARY OF DEFENSE DURING EXTRAORDINARY TIMES": Right. Well, first of all, Kaitlan, it's great that she's home. I'm happy for her and her family. But you can't help but be disappointed and sad for Paul Whelan and his family.
And when you -- when you lay out, as you did in the lead-up here, Bout versus Griner, it just seems like a lopsided deal and it doesn't feel good. It feels -- the win feels a little hollow here.
And you've got to wonder when and how do we get Paul Whelan back. He's been in custody now for nearly four years.
HARLOW: And he's a former U.S. Marine.
ESPER: And a former U.S. Marine.
HARLOW: We don't leave our own behind.
ESPER: No. The ethos in the United States military is we do not leave our people behind, and that really cuts hard against some of us.
HARLOW: How do you -- if Viktor Bout was not enough, right, to get Paul Whelan home -- and that's what we heard Sec. Blinken saying yesterday is there -- you know, there was not a choice of which American to bring home. And we heard the president say it yesterday. He said for some reason -- and I'm paraphrasing here -- they are holding Whelan to a completely different standard -- Russia is -- than Griner.
How do you get him home?
ESPER: Well, I've seen reports where they -- where we learned a year ago they were willing to give up Whelan for somebody else or for Bout. So, I don't know. I think there needs to be some more digging about this deal and how it came about, and from people who really know how to negotiate with the Russians and find out did we get a good deal. Because right now, again, it feels bittersweet.
COLLINS: Well, and that's the question here. It's also the implications of this -- returning Viktor Bout to Russia. We saw him. He already did an interview there.
He is this notorious arms dealer. His nickname is "The Merchant of Death." As we noted, he's convicted by a New York jury of conspiring to kill Americans.
Is there a threat to Americans and to other countries now that he is back in Russia and he is a free man?
ESPER: Well, that was the second question that came to mind when I heard this news yesterday -- the first being why not Paul Whelan? And the issue is why now? Why is Putin cutting this deal now? Does he need to appease his far-right by bringing home one of their own? Does he need to put Viktor Bout on a special mission to go back to his own job and find arms and ammunition for the Russian military, which has -- which doesn't have much of each as it prosecutes its war in Ukraine?
I don't know. But I think -- I have a lot of curiosity about what's happening there as well.
HARLOW: There is some concern from senators on both sides of the aisle this morning, both -- for example, Sen. Coons, a Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, Sen. Rubio on the Intelligence Committee, over to more broadly what we're doing here.
Let's play that and I wonder if you agree with them. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): The more we engage in such exchanges, the more Americans are at risk of being scooped up and held as leverage to try and secure the release of folks who we would rather not have to release.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): And we have to recognize, even as we're happy and an American is coming home, it does incentivize the taking of more Americans around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: You're nodding -- yes.
ESPER: Yes, they're absolutely correct. I mean, you put a higher value -- a premium on Americans. And if you look, over the last 10 years, at least, there are nearly three dozen Americans being held illegally by other countries and state-sponsored more so now than compared to 20 years ago. So, China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, others.
And the concern is the more you do these swaps, the more you cite this issue, the more you put a premium on Americans' heads. And it's a -- it's an issue for us to be concerned about as a country.
[07:40:02]
But look -- on the other hand, if you're in that situation -- if it's your loved one that's being held, you want the deal cut.
And I've got to give a shoutout to the Whelan family. I think they've been extraordinarily gracious in all this and yet, seeing Paul still left in Russia.
HARLOW: We couldn't agree more.
COLLINS: All of their families. I mean, Trevor Reed was the same --
HARLOW: Yes.
COLLINS: -- way when he --
ESPER: Right.
COLLINS: -- came home. Brittney Griner's wife was so gracious yesterday. I mean, she was speaking from the White House, and the Whelan family has been, too.
On the larger picture of what's happening here though, if you're looking at this from the war in Ukraine and watching Putin use his leverage here when it came to Viktor Bout, someone they have desperately tried to get home. You talked about what he means to them. There's rumors, of course, that he's tied to Russian intelligence services.
ESPER: Yes.
COLLINS: What do you -- what is your takeaway of watching how Putin handled this situation to what he is thinking when it comes --
HARLOW: Yes.
COLLINS: -- to the war in Ukraine?
ESPER: Well, again, there are all these issues. Is it a way for Putin to take home a victory to Russia to show that he's still in charge -- he's still this great statesman if you will? He is facing multiple strategic failures with regard to the war in Ukraine. He is now fighting a war on two fronts -- one in Ukraine and one at home.
And I think he -- we're entering a tough winter month -- period here coming up. If I were Ukraine, I would push the offensive because the Russians are on their back heels. And I think now is the time to keep moving forward. Because look, the Ukrainians can win this fight and should win this fight, and we need to be doing everything we can to help them.
HARLOW: You were defense secretary under the Trump administration. There were significant efforts to get Paul Whelan home during that administration over multiple years. They failed.
And I wonder -- I know you weren't involved in them directly. You guys are on the back end, right --
ESPER: Right.
HARLOW: -- when the deal is made of getting them physically here. But why do you think those failed?
ESPER: I don't know. You know, Mike Pompeo put a lot of effort into this as Secretary of State, as did his team. And sometimes the timing is right, sometimes it's not. It depends on a variety of factors.
And like you said, my DODs were always usually on the back end or hostage rescue. And we had, of course, a hostage rescue that we conducted successfully in the fall of 2020.
HARLOW: But you're in those rooms, right? And I just wonder if you think, especially as it pertains to --
ESPER: No, actually, not always.
HARLOW: Not always.
ESPER: Yes.
HARLOW: -- to Putin's mindset different than now in the middle of this war.
ESPER: Look, he is looking for what benefits him and not his country, but what benefits him. And that's why I wonder why did he do this now. What did he need to deliver back home to the Russian people or to his inner circle, or to appease his far-right? Because, again, he's getting criticism not just from the liberals -- the left in Russia -- but from the far right. And it's more intense from the far right. And maybe he's questioning his own hold on power.
I don't know. It's just interesting.
COLLINS: Yes, it does come as he's faced those embarrassing setbacks on the field.
HARLOW: Yes. ESPER: Right, absolutely.
COLLINS: Former Defense Sec. Mark Esper, thank you for joining us --
ESPER: Thank you.
COLLINS: -- on such an important topic.
ESPER: Thank you, both.
HARLOW: This morning, Pope Francis breaking down in tears after talking about the suffering of Ukrainians amid the Russian invasion. The pontiff was delivering a traditional prayer in central Rome, saying, quote, "I would like -- I would have liked to have brought to you the thanksgiving of the Ukrainian people for the peace we've long been asking the lord for," when suddenly he was overcome with emotion and unable to speak.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS: (Speaking foreign language). Becoming tearful and unable to speak.
(Applause)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: His voice continued to crack as he resumed his prayer, saying, "Instead, I still have to present you the supplication of the people -- that tormented land which is suffering -- of that tormented land which is suffering so much." It says a lot.
COLLINS: Yes, it does.
Also this morning, an emotional signoff from Trevor Noah. You know, he hosted his last episode and you've got to watch this. Who he credits for his incredible success.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TREVOR NOAH, HOST, COMEDY CENTRAL "THE DAILY SHOW": Some people who are watching -- I don't like it when you do this but I -- but I watch. I want to say I appreciate those people, even the people who hate- watched. We still got the ratings, thank you. I'm eternally grateful to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And also ahead this morning, I promise you there is an erupting volcano behind me here on Hawaii's Big Island. But that is part of the story -- this very quickly- changing weather. And also, major changes in the status of this eruption. Some are saying it's a good thing. Others are saying oh, but wait -- there is more to come.
(COMMERCIAL) [07:48:43]
HARLOW: This morning, a crisis averted, at least for now, as officials say lava spewing from the world's largest active volcano is no longer a threat to the main highway of Hawaii's Big Island. Now people can catch a glimpse of the natural beauty without extreme danger.
Our David Culver, with the best assignment in television, has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CULVER (voice-over): Seemingly photogenic from every angle, there is a striking beauty to Mauna Loa's eruption, especially as captured by photographer CJ Kale.
CJ KALE, PHOTOGRAPHER: A volcano is different every single day. Every single time you go it's always different.
CULVER (voice-over): CJ driving us to his picture-perfect spot at four in the morning. The best view, he believes, the rising sun greeting the glowing lava. Many hours of sleep sacrificed for just a few minutes of perfect lighting, weather permitting.
KALE: Yes, that is -- that is super attractive (PH).
CULVER (voice-over): We step out into the cold rain hoping it will burn off. As we wait, CJ admits to us he is a particular kind of thrill seeker.
KALE: A lava junkie. Kind of the term out here -- we all call ourselves lava junkie. It's kind of our fix. We go and it's what gives us our excitement. It's what gives us our adrenaline for the day.
[07:50:00]
CULVER (voice-over): This lava junkie has even gone swimming with it, catching these fiery waves in 2018's Kilauea's eruption.
CULVER (on camera): Is there a range of lava junkie, though -- those who get a little bit too close and too extreme?
KALE: My group is friends is definitely the far outer limits of that range. I wouldn't recommend pushing it far for everybody.
CULVER (voice-over): But some are still pushing it.
CULVER (on camera): Well, good morning, Don. Yes, you had --
CULVER (voice-over): If you caught our live report Monday for CNN THIS MORNING, you might have noticed this person -- headlamp on, returning from a trek to the lava's edge. Officials have repeatedly warned folks of the dangers of getting that close to the flow, not to mention it's trespassing.
SHERRY GRUMBLES, MADE ROUNDTRIP TREK TO SEE LAVA FLOW: You know, you can live caged up and have a pretty boring life, or you can go see for itself and take the chance.
CULVER (voice-over): Curtis and Sherry Grumbles, perhaps rookie lava junkies, hiked five hours roundtrip over unstable lava rock out to the edge of the flow. They recorded this video about 50 yards from the crawling lava.
Then there were those going to the source of the lava -- the expert lava junkies if you will -- USGS scientists in protective gear, collecting samples of the lava and bringing them here.
PROFESSOR CHERYL GANSECKI, GEOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII: And so, we put them in the drying oven.
CULVER (voice-over): The University of Hawai'i at Hilo is helping run the rapid response lab for the Mauna Loa eruption. We got a rare look inside. These samples, collected since the lava started spewing.
GANSECKI: It was thrown up in the air and landed, and was -- they scooped it up while it was still molten and quenched it. And if you look at it you'll see it's very, very bubbly, soft. You can -- you can like break it in your hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Carbon and oxygen.
CULVER (voice-over): Researchers here quickly turning out data to help the USGS chart where the lava flow might be heading, especially as it's inching closer to crossing Saddle Road, a major highway connecting the east and west of the Big Island. They warn the slower pace deceptive at times.
GANSECKI: So it might just look like a big wall of hot rock and it doesn't look like it's moving much, but they can really -- they can surge where something -- all of a sudden the front breaks off and lava comes spewing out.
CULVER (voice-over): Dangerous, perhaps, but for CJ Kale, an eruption is never destructive.
KALE: At what point did it become destruction? When we put a house in the way? You can't do that.
So I lost property during the 2018 eruption. I had many friends that lost properties. My mom lost a house down in Kapoho. We don't view it as loss. We view it as borrowed time.
CULVER (voice-over): Speaking of time, the sun's up and our view still this.
CULVER (on camera): Does it feel like a washout when you -- when you get to this point and suddenly, there's nothing? Do you feel disappointment?
KALE: You know, it's all part of the journey. If every single time we pulled up it was absolutely amazing, it wouldn't be as special as it is on the days that it is amazing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CULVER: I wish we could show you that picture-perfect view at this hour, Poppy, but we've got cold rain that is blocking the volcano and the eruption behind me.
As we mentioned, the good news -- it has stalled, meaning it's no longer an imminent threat to the highway. But scientists warn, Poppy, this thing could change over a matter of hours and the eruption is still going.
HARLOW: You might have to open the Hawaii bureau, David Culver -- lava watch. Thank you, friend.
Well, a huge -- I mean, it's so appropriate that we're in D.C. this morning for this news. A huge shakeup in the Senate just as Democrats are celebrating another -- gaining another seat. Ahead, our Jake Tapper joins CNN THIS MORNING with his exclusive interview with Sen. Kyrsten Sinema.
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:55:12]
COLLINS: That music making it even harder to wait for Sunday night. This is like what my life revolved around right now -- it's watching "THE WHITE LOTUS."
HARLOW: I'm just getting on board.
COLLINS: We have converted Poppy to be a "WHITE LOTUS" watcher -- don't worry.
Every minute that passes, we are now getting one minute closer to finding out what happens in the finale of "WHITE LOTUS." So, Poppy, Don, and I -- we had the chance to sit down with Theo James. If you're watching, you know that is Cameron. He is the wealthy businessman who lets loose on vacation in Sicily.
And here's what he told us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COLLINS: We love this show. I mean, we have been talking about it nonstop. The whole show team talks about it regularly, dissecting it.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is going to be a little weird because he has an accent but not on the show.
THEO JAMES, ACTOR, HBO "THE WHITE LOTUS", HIGH-PROFILE SUPPORTER FOR U.N. REFUGEE AGENCY: Yes. That clip we just watched --
COLLINS: Yes.
JAMES: -- I was thinking of getting that tattooed on my chest.
COLLINS: It's a little lengthy. JAMES: Threesomes of past, present, and future. That should be everyone's.
COLLINS: But this show is so -- I mean, it's like a cult favorite immediately --
JAMES: Yes.
COLLINS: -- after season one. Season two is already everyone's favorite.
But it's so interesting because of the undertones in it. And I wonder what stuck out to you as you were shooting it.
JAMES: Yes. I mean, Mike is such a genius at comedy underlaid with social commentary. And as you know -- you've seen it -- he does that really well.
This is a little different from the first season. It's still about hyper-wealth and privilege and how that morphs people and how they make mistakes as a result of it -- their skewed morality.
But what I found really interesting about this season was the sexual politics of it and the gender politics of it, you know?
LEMON: People will think you're character is an ass, right?
JAMES: Yes.
LEMON: I actually like your character. I think people --
COLLINS: Oh, go on.
LEMON: Well, no, because I think people judge your character from what they saw from the beginning --
JAMES: Yes.
LEMON: -- of the series. And I don't know if that character is going to end up being that in the -- at the end of the series.
JAMES: Exactly, yes.
LEMON: And so I really don't know. So I say -- I kind of like your character and I like that -- and your wife on the show because like I said earlier, it works --
JAMES: Yes.
LEMON: -- for you and I'm not going to judge it.
JAMES: Yes, exactly, and I think that's an interesting question that the show poses, and for me as an actor as well. I have to find things in Cameron that I like because I say I based him on people I knew, people I've met. But I also had to find bits that I really liked about him. He's warm, fun-loving. He also loves his wife -- all those things. But at the same time, as we saw from that clip, he's also a bit of a scumbag.
But you have to -- you have to warm to him in some way to make it as real as possible.
COLLINS: Are you going to tell us who dies?
JAMES: Yes. So -- no, I can't tell you. But all I can say is it gets bigger and a little - and wilder, and the person that you might think it is is not that person.
LEMON: Oh. So is it how -- what is it like? Is it -- is it Jennifer?
JAMES: I won't tell.
LEMON: And what is it like working with Jennifer because she's so eccentric. She's -- I mean, she has the most unusual -- I don't know, way --
JAMES: Yes.
LEMON: -- method of acting I think that --
JAMES: Yes, she does. And it was interesting as a -- again, as an actor, to -- it's great to be able to see a performer, especially ones that you like. I've liked her since "BEST IN SHOW." She's --
LEMON: Yes.
JAMES: But watching her as a comedian, it's very fascinating.
LEMON: Yes.
JAMES: Because as you say, she has a very particular way of delivering lines but she also is a consummate comedian, so she knows how to adjust lines with the tiniest (INAUDIBLE).
COLLINS: Like when they're on a yacht and she's like oh, did you knit that little hat?
JAMES: Yes.
COLLINS: I busted out laughing.
JAMES: Yes.
COLLINS: My Uber driver was like is everything OK?
HARLOW: I want to switch gears because -- well, I obviously have only seen one season of "WHITE LOTUS" and so --
JAMES: (INAUDIBLE).
HARLOW: One episode -- even more embarrassing.
COLLINS: Thank you. Good --
HARLOW: All thanks to Kaitlan.
But then I was like looking into a little bit more about what you do. And when you're not acting you're like -- you do a lot of work with the U.N. -- with UNHCR -- and a lot of work with refugees.
JAMES: Yes.
HARLOW: And Syrian -- there's a Syrian refugee that you've been working with for a long time. What does that mean to you, and how is it tied to your family's experience?
JAMES: Yes. I mean, it began with the Syrian Civil War. Obviously, that huge displacement of people who then needed help, particularly with the U.K. You know, they -- and here at the time, and lots of other places. They -- there was a xenophobia. There was a fear in people -- you know, they shut their borders and that's frustrating. We all believe in that.
But my grandfather is Greek and during the Second World War when the Nazis invaded Athens, he escaped on a boat across the Aegean and ended up safe harbor in Damascus. So he went the other way. And that's very recent for us.
So it was -- I guess I was trying to use that story to remind even myself that immigration -- it happens all the time and it's important for culture. But it's also remember how recently your own ancestors were faced with those problems.
LEMON: Yes.
HARLOW: Yes.
