Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

January 6 Committee Refers Trump To DOJ On 4 Criminal Charges; Incoming New York Congressman Under Scrutiny For Resume Discrepancies; Superintendent: "Intruder" Entered Uvalde School During Safety Audit. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 20, 2022 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: As you have highlighted in the show, this is with DOJ now and has been for a while. So I think that they provided more information to the Department of Justice to do what they need to do and to make the decisions they need to make going forward.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: So the question is, considering what happened, do you see the evidence there that the president incited or aided an insurrection? Do you see that as a truth now?

ESPER: Well, I've said that from the beginning when I first came out against the president last summer when my memoir came out, that I felt he was unfit for office and that his actions not just on that day but in the weeks leading up to it -- first of all, denying the election results and then inciting people to come to D.C. on that day. And then, on that morning, inciting them once again to go to the Capitol.

I think for me, I concluded long ago that he was -- that he had inspired this and was trying to obstruct Congress and was, therefore, a threat to democracy.

LEMON: Yes.

The question is how will this play with the country -- whether it's divisive.

I want you to listen to the former vice president -- what he said about potential charges for Trump. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would hope that they would not bring charges against the former president. I don't -- look, I -- as I wrote in my book, I think the president's actions and words on January 6 were reckless, but I don't know that it's criminal to take bad advice from lawyers.

I hope the Justice Department understands the magnitude of the very idea of indicting a former president of the United States. I think that would be terribly divisive in the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: What do you think of that? Should that even be a consideration, sir?

ESPER: Well, a couple of things.

First of all, no one is above the law in our country. I think that's a core American principle that we need to abide by.

And second -- look, we have two immediate issues. The second thing, of course, is there needs to be accountability always, not just for the past but for the future going forward. And it's important that the American people understand this.

But I think we have two issues. The short-term issue is -- and you talked about this in a previous segment -- would people -- would Republicans rally around Donald Trump in the wake of this report? And I haven't seen it either, which is I think good news.

The longer-term issue will be down the road, probably in the middle of a Republican primary season -- who knows -- what will the DOJ do? Do they have the facts and can they make a case against Donald Trump that they can win in court?

And then, the political impact -- what will that be if they don't pursue the charges, if they do pursue the charges and lose, or if they do pursue the charges and win? And those are all consequences they need to think through.

LEMON: Yes.

So I want to talk about what's happening at the border and I'm not sure if you were able to hear the report moments ago -- our David Culver in Cuidad Juarez. The chief justice John Roberts temporarily halted the lifting of Title 42. That's the Trump-era policy that calls for the quick deportation of people entering the country.

We're looking at pictures just moments ago of what's happening down on the border.

The DHS is expecting a huge increase in migrant crossings if this is eliminated.

I just want to know what you think of what's happening at the border, and do you think these are the makings of a national security crisis?

ESPER: Well, I've always said that border security is national security. And look, the problem is getting worse and worse. I think in 2021, the highest number ever in the U.S. history of encounters at the border was 1.7 million. This year, it's 2.4 million and it's going higher in 2023. We have to get this under control.

I support the Trump administration's policy and, of course, we've had troops on the border supporting DHS for decades. But the bigger is the failure of Congress to act to come up with modern immigration policy laws to deal with this. To deal with the Dreamers. To make sure we have a merit-based immigration system. To secure the border. To finish putting border security up.

So the bigger failure here is in Washington. I think you're hearing that from governors in states that range from Texas to California, and, of course, from lawmakers from both parties. The Biden administration needs to take this on and take it on in the coming Congress.

LEMON: Well, I -- listen, you didn't place as much blame on the Biden administration as many people do. And you did say in your -- in your last answer that you believe it was a shared -- that this is a shared issue by both Democrats and Republicans -- and especially, the Congress. So I think most people will agree with you.

But in this political realm, people like to place blame. The former administration spent a lot of time on the wall and what have you.

So what do you think in the final analysis, what will take care of what's happening at the border? Because it is an issue. We still have to allow people a legal immigration process in this country, but we still cannot absorb as many people as expected to come over if this policy is lifted.

[07:35:00]

ESPER: Yes. Well, let me be clear. I do blame the Biden administration. They've neglected this problem for two years now. And as I said earlier, the numbers have only grown and grown. It's been an incentive for folks from Latin America to come north into our country and we cannot handle the load. We've seen cities are overwhelmed -- cities on the border, cities in the northeast.

And so, yes, I put the blame at their feet. They need to address this policy.

LEMON: But with all due respect, Mr. Esper --

ESPER: And they need --

LEMON: Mr. Esper, for four years, the Trump administration placed on -- wasted time with the border wall between the U.S. and Mexico border. There could have been more meaningful immigration policy and discussions with the Trump administration as well.

ESPER: I don't disagree with you. I think -- again, this has been a failure for decades with regard to immigration policy. I worked in the Senate when this came up in the early 2000s. So the issue between the White House and the administration is -- it goes back through many administrations.

I disagree with you with regard to the Trump administration. I don't think the border wall was a waste of time. Look, border security improves -- is an important issue. It's going to be an important factor in any type of immigration policy agreement going forward.

So, I supported border security. We need border security. And that's going to be the underpinnings of any eventual deal between the Congress and the White House.

LEMON: Mr. Esper, thank you for your time this morning. I appreciate it.

ESPER: Thank you.

LEMON: And in just a few minutes, we're going to take you back out to David Culver who is live at the Mexico-U.S. border just moments from now.

There are questions this morning about an incoming Republican congressman's resume because some parts of it -- well, they just aren't adding up. What we're learning.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, home prices are starting to come down. The promising data that homebuyers -- hopeful homebuyers need to know.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:40:43]

COLLINS: All right, this story is just incredible. A newly-elected Republican congressman from New York is under scrutiny this morning because major aspects of his resume are being called into question because of a damning report in The New York Times that says key parts of George Santos' biography that were sold to voters may largely be fiction.

Santos says he graduated from Baruch College in 2010, but neither the Times nor CNN when we later checked, could find a record of anyone with his name and birthday graduating that year.

His campaign website also claims that after graduating he worked at big Wall Street firms like Citigroup and Goldman Sachs, but both companies say they have no record of his working there.

That's not all. A previous version of his campaign website from April says that he, quote, "...founded and ran a nonprofit called Friends of Pets United from 2013 to 2018, which was able to effectively rescue 2,400 dogs and 280 cats." But according to the IRS, they were not able to find any record showing that the group held the tax-exempt status that Mr. Santos claimed.

The Times report says that he did not respond to repeated requests to furnish documents that would help substantiate the claims he made while he was campaigning.

His attorney told CNN that the Times was, quote, "attempting to smear the congressman with defamatory allegations."

So joining us now with his reporting is Michael Gold from The New York Times, who broke this story along with his colleague Grace Ashford.

This is -- totally rocks the political world. I wonder how this started. What made you look into and kind of try to double-check some of the things that, seemingly, people would not typically lie about?

MICHAEL GOLD, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Sure. I think after the elections in November we, in New York, were just curious about who some of these new congressmen were. We saw a red wave here that really didn't materialize in the rest of the country.

And so we started exploring Mr. Santos to try to figure out what made him tick. We were hoping to get a little more information about his background. There wasn't a ton out there other than his campaign biography. And so, we were hoping to speak to people who knew him from his Wall Street days to try to get a sense of what kind of businessman he did.

And one of the first things we did was reach out to Citigroup and Goldman Sachs, two big firms where he said he worked, to try to get dates of employment so we could start to find some of his former coworkers. And that sort of led us down this rabbit hole to start checking all the other details in his background.

COLLINS: So was that the first part -- they said we don't have a record of him working here and that's what made you question other parts of his biography?

GOLD: We had started looking at some of the other claims in his biography. I think one of the first things we did was check the status of Friends of Pets United with the IRS. And then there was some indication that had not been registered as a 501(c)(3) as Mr. Santos had claimed.

But I think the work stuff really took us aback and it made us sort of open our investigation a little bit more.

COLLINS: It just seems like the misrepresentations -- we'll call them that because obviously, we want him to respond to this, and we'll get to what his response has been in a moment -- have been big and small. Because he did say this about the Pulse shooting that also doesn't check out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPRESENTATIVE-ELECT GEORGE SANTOS (R-NY): I can't speak for other people's actions or behaviors. I can speak for my own. And I condemn what happened in Colorado, just much like Pulse at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando in 2016, which I happened to, at the time, have people that worked for me in the club. We -- my company at the time -- we lost four employees that were -- that were at Pulse nightclub.

So this is a deja vu moment for me, not something that is really good even going over because it just brings up such tragic memories.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: He says his company lost four employees. What did you find when you looked into that?

GOLD: Yes, I want to be clear about the context of this quote. So, Mr. Santos was on WNYC public radio here in New York and he was asked about what it's like and how he's going to approach being an out-gay congressman in the Republican Party when many Republican lawmakers have held views hostile to LGBT people, and he brought this up.

We looked into his background and I looked at the profiles of the victims of the Pulse shooting. We looked at old news coverage. We looked at obituaries and we could not find four employees that worked for any of the companies named in Mr. Santos' biography. Obviously, some of the details in that biography are incomplete but based on what he's told us so far, that claim didn't appear to check out.

COLLINS: And you reached out to his campaign for this.

GOLD: Yes.

COLLINS: They have said that you're trying to smear him. That he's been in the public eye for several years. Of course, in their response to you, they also quoted something that said was a Winston Churchill quote, though it's actually not a Winston Churchill quote.

[07:45:06]

But has he actually denied that he made up parts of his biography?

GOLD: We've attempted to ask specific questions. We sent them a detailed list of the things that we'd been reporting. We have not received any specific responses to any of these things. The statement that his lawyer has put out is almost identical to one that we got earlier this week. Nothing specific has been said about the accusations that they're making about us smearing him, so I don't know specifically what he's referring to or what his lawyer is referring to. We'd love a chance to talk in more detail.

COLLINS: Are you surprised this didn't surface sooner? Obviously, typically, in an election, opponents do opposition research on one another. That's where often you see unflattering stories come out or accusations, or basic elements like lying about what your bio is, potentially.

GOLD: You know, some of this was out there in the local press. Newsday, out on Long Island, had put some of this together. And Mr. Santos' opponent, Robert Zimmerman, had been saying that there were things that he didn't think checked out as well.

But the campaign was so focused on other issues.

Democrats, really, in New York were focusing on Mr. Santos' ties to Trump. He said that he was at the January 6 rally though he did not, he said, go to the Capitol that day.

They were focused on his stances on abortion and his stances on crime, and those were issues that were central to his campaign. I think some of these other concerns were overlooked or marginalized because of that.

COLLINS: Yes. Michael Gold, this is fantastic reporting, so thanks --

GOLD: Yes.

COLLINS: -- to you and your colleague, Grace.

GOLD: Thanks.

COLLINS: And ahead, we are going to get reaction from Robert Zimmerman. That's who you were just hearing Michael talk about. He lost that election to George Santos. And we'll see what he says, next.

Also coming up --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's still waiting on seeing what's going to happen with Title 42. He said this was the part that they were going to cross but now, with all the mobilization that he's seen he doesn't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: In a moment, we'll take you back to the southern border where we were just a few moments ago. You see officials mobilizing there. David Culver is live on the ground in Ciudad Juarez. We'll go back there, next.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:51:20]

LEMON: Now to a shocking revelation out of Uvalde, Texas. And we have learned that an inspector posing as an intruder managed to get into a school cafeteria through an unlocked door. The school superintendent says this was part of a safety audit. And it comes with the horror of the Robb Elementary School massacre still very fresh on people's minds.

CNN's Martin Savidge joins us now. Martin, good morning to you.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Don.

LEMON: How did this happen?

SAVIDGE: Yes. It is absolutely stunning to hear of such a security breach that would have taken place inside of a school district where just seven months ago you had 21 people -- 19 students and two teachers -- killed by a gunman that was able to get into Robb Elementary School.

So here's what we know. First, I should stress students and staff were never in any danger. This was a test. It was only a test.

But what they did was they went to three different schools. They won't say what schools in the Uvalde school system. And there was a person who was posing as an intruder -- an auditor -- who tried the doors. Two of the schools passed -- we're not able to get in.

But at a third school -- at a cafeteria -- at a loading dock area there was a door that was supposedly locked, but when this intruder yanked on the door he was able to get in. And when he got in, he was quickly confronted, the interim superintendent says, by cafeteria staff -- by workers and the staff. But if he had been armed -- if this had been real, the consequences could have been disastrous again.

Also at last night's school board meeting, they discussed, of course, new security doors. They talked about security cameras, and they talked about a reformed police department.

But still, the fact that an auditor was able to gain access in that district is just so deeply troubling at this time. Thank God it wasn't real -- Don.

LEMON: Yes, thank God. Troubling to say the least.

Martin Savidge, thank you.

SAVIDGE: You're welcome.

COLLINS: Also this morning, the housing market becoming more favorable for some homebuyers, but the overall picture is still pretty grim -- uncertain with increased demand, rising interest rates, the war in Ukraine.

Let's get to CNN's chief business correspondent, Christine Romans. What does this housing data look like if you're someone who wants to buy a house and wants to sell a house, maybe?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT, ANCHOR, "EARLY START": You know, it was a couple of years of runaway price appreciation. You guys have probably all seen it. I mean, it was nuts for a couple of years. Record-high home prices, double-digit pricing increases.

Some of these -- some of these zip codes -- you know, like in the -- like Seattle and San Francisco, and Phoenix -- you saw 10, 20, 30 percent price increases.

That has stopped, and that's what we're talking about here. That has stopped and there's a reckoning here where higher mortgage rates means more expensive to get in and buy a home. And so, home prices have really cooled off here. They're still rising but more slowly.

Home sales have fallen. And next year, great uncertainty about what happens with home prices. But home prices have sort of stalled here.

And the National Association of Realtors says next year, probably half of zip codes, you'll see a little bit of a price increase in home prices. Half of zip codes, a little bit of a decrease. But watch those big red-hot markets I was talking about for the past couple of years. You could see bigger price increases there.

LEMON: Because there are people out there who still think I can get all of this money for -- to sell my -- you know, by selling my home. It's not happening anymore.

ROMANS: But where are you going to move, too, because home prices --

LEMON: And they're just --

ROMANS: -- are not moving down very quickly either. So they're still historically high -- many of these home prices.

COLLINS: What about people who flip houses because that's a big thing for a lot of people? They pay all cash. Is that an issue for them?

ROMANS: So this has all slowed. The flippers have slowed. The corporate investment in the housing market has slowed. The second home market has slowed. Everything has slowed down here as we're trying to get a reckoning about where home -- where mortgage rates are going to --

[07:55:00]

LEMON: Is that good, though, for --

ROMANS: Well, it needs to cool off. I mean -- and, you know, I'm sure there are some people who say this is -- this is terrible, what's happening in the housing market, for them. But this was unsustainable. Three percent mortgage rates --

LEMON: Yes.

ROMANS: -- and 20 percent annual price increases -- that is just unsustainable.

We just don't know what's going to happen next. Is there going to be a big leg down as it corrects or is it going to be more gradual? No one knows for sure.

LEMON: Thank you.

ROMANS: You're welcome.

LEMON: Good to see you.

So we are live along the U.S.-Mexico border. You've got to see this -- what's happening this morning. Live pictures for you there where officials appear to be blocking off one border crossing entrance.

(COMMERCIAL)

[08:00:00]