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Supreme Court Justice John Roberts Delays Ending of Title 42 at U.S. Southern Border; Rep. Fred Upton (R-MI) Interviewed on January 6th Committee's Criminal Referrals to Justice Department for Former President Trump and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy's Attempts to Get Enough Votes to Become Next House Speaker. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 20, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. It is the top of the hour, and it is Tuesday. You don't see Poppy Harlow because Poppy is off today.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Much deserved.

LEMON: Yes. And we've got to catch you up, though, very quickly on the five big stories CNN is following this morning.

Overnight, lawmakers unveiled a sweeping full-year funding bill to avert a government shutdown. The $1.7 trillion spending bill which fund critical government operations for the 2023 fiscal year. It also includes $44.9 billion in emergency assistance to Ukraine and NATO allies. The bill also includes a measure to ban TikTok from federal devices.

COLLINS: Also this morning, the January 6th committee has now recommended criminal charges against former President Trump, the committee using its final public meeting yesterday to summarize its 17-month investigation with a simple closing argument -- all roads lead to Trump. The referral does not require the Justice Department to act and there are big questions about whether or not they will.

LEMON: A Maricopa County Superior Court judge ruled that Arizona Republican Kari Lake who lost last month's gubernatorial race will be allowed to head to trial in her election lawsuit. Lake lost to Democrat Katie Hobbs by about 17,000 votes. Lake claims that intentional misconduct caused her loss. The judge ruled that most of the claims that Lake made, eight out of 10, would immediately be dismissed.

COLLINS: And the timing couldn't be worse, especially for those who are traveling for the holidays. Millions of Americans waking up to winter weather and windchill alerts as an arctic blast will bring drastically cold temperatures across much of the country in the coming days. Right now, so far more than 25 million people are under windchill alerts across much of the central and northwestern United States.

LEMON: And a hero's welcome in Argentina.

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LEMON: Crowds of Argentine fans cheered their national team as they returned home as World Cup champions. Today has been declared a national holiday in Argentina to celebrate the win.

But first, this. Thousands of migrants are living in limbo along the southern border after a Supreme Court justice, Chief Justice John Roberts, blocked the order to lift Title 42, the border restrictions there. And this morning, we're witnessing some mobilization from officials which we just learned is part of the Texas Governor Greg Abbott's border security mission.

So we want to get straight now to David Culver. He's in at Ciudad Juarez Mexico, this morning. David, good morning to you. You have been witnessing what's been happening there at the border, what Greg Abbott's border team is doing there, and also speaking to some of the migrants. What are you learning? What are you seeing?

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Don, in the past hour when we were speaking with you as this was unfolding, it seemed a bit unclear to us who exactly these law enforcement members were. As you point out, it does seem that these are now part of the State National Guard. We know that in the past 24 hours the Texas State National Guard put on about 400 members on alert and on standby to be mission ready. It seems like now they are mobilizing quite actively.

Let me walk you a little bit just to show you what has taken place here. You can see what was really a staging ground, and this is what you should understand about that side of the Rio Grande is that this, of course the U.S. side is where a lot of the migrants were staging once they had crossed over the Rio Grande. That's an illegal crossing. But then they would wait there, and they would line up, and where you see all these Humvees, and now are state trooper from Texas vehicles flashing there, the lights there, that was covered with migrants waiting this morning around 4:30. They had campfires lit. And then suddenly this mobilization moved in, those fires were extinguished, and they were moving those migrants to be processed. Some, though, came back over to this side, the Mexican side, and we caught up with one of them. Take a listen.

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CULVER: What do you think about all those of the those of the military?

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CULVER: He's still waiting on seeing what's going to happen with Title 42. He said this was the part that they were going to cross, but now with all the mobilization that he's seeing, he doesn't know.

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CULVER: And that is a huge part of this is all this confusion. So that migrant we had spoken with from Venezuela, he like many others had that deadline of the 21st of December, thinking that that's when Title 42 was go to be lifted. Don, as you pointed out, what came yesterday from the chief justice changed all of that, it is still in effect, and now you've got added law enforcement behind me here at the border. So a lot of these folks who are working on that 21st timeline, they're thinking perhaps they still try to cross. Maybe they hold off for a bit. They're waiting if what could be a new date and deadline for them to fixate on to then determine their next steps here.

But you have this state of confusion and really limbo that a lot of these folks are finding themselves in, and now they're looking across and seeing the space they used to easily walk across onto. It was so simple for them. They'd step over stones and be there. Some of them going back and forth to help others. Now it looks to be completely shuttered, and that seems to be as we pointed out, Don, a mobilization from Texas.

LEMON: David Culver live along the U.S.-Mexico border. David, thank you.

COLLINS: This morning Republicans on Capitol Hill are divided after the January 6th committee's historic referral of former President Trump to the Justice Department for criminal prosecution. Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell didn't really mince word on that. He said the entire nation knows who's responsible for what happened that day. He said beyond that he doesn't have anything else to add.

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SEN. RICK SCOTT, (R-FL): It was set up as political theater. It's still political theater. Investigations ought to be done by law enforcement, not by some political group in the house.

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL, (R-KS): We've done 105 town halls, and this January 6th commission never came up. I don't think anybody's paying attention to it. I think it's time to move on.

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER, (R-ND): The people who were responsible for January 6th were the people that illegally came into the building, the people that stormed over barriers and broke through windows and doors and illegally trespassed on the United States Capitol. I think it's a copout to blame somebody other than the actual perpetrators of a crime.

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COLLINS: Joining us now is one of the 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach former President Trump for inciting the January 6th insurrection, Congressman Fred Upton, who we should note, is retiring after 18 terms in Congress. And Congressman, I want to get to your time in Congress and what

you're looking back on in a moment, but first, what happened yesterday on Capitol Hill, what you just heard from your fellow Republicans there, do you believe that the committee has shown that it is Trump who's responsible for what happened that day?

REP. FRED UPTON (R-MI): Well, first of all, I look forward to reading their full report when it comes out tomorrow, but I think they've done a pretty good job. You can't just sweep this under the rug. I once chaired the Oversight Subcommittee, and our role was to investigate fraud and abuse and then go back and correct it. So that's in essence what they did.

You'll remember that former President Trump actually opposed a bipartisan commission, one that was equal with Republicans and Democrats, subpoena power, staff, all of that. They were supposed to get their work done a year ago, by the end of 2021. He opposed that, and this was the -- and despite it passing the House, the Senate didn't get the 60 votes to get it done.

And so, we ended up with the current commission that's there now, which is a little bit slanted, but they were unanimous yesterday, a little bit slanted in terms of Democrats to Republicans. But they were unanimous, and they have now submitted their recommendations to the Justice Department. So that's step number one.

But step number two later this week is part of the omnibus appropriation bill, we're going to have electoral reform. So this is fixing the problem. This is to make sure that not just one member of the House and Senate together can object to a state's certified electoral count. It's got to be at least 20 percent of the body, 20 senators, a good number of House members as well, and that will then -- would then trigger what the insurrectionists tried to really do on January 6th to block this from happening. But the commission that is going to issue their report did their job. We'll see what the Justice Department does. They've got, what, 1,000 different interviews, transcripts, all that. They'll make that decision.

COLLINS: Do you think the findings when it comes to a political perspective could complicate Trump's run in 2024?

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UPTON: Well, for sure it could, although, I'm not a lawyer. And of course, if charges were made and particularly the insurrectionist charge stuck and he was viewed as guilty, I would imagine he would ask that it be reviewed again, and that's going to take time, and probably beyond the November 24th, he would appeal and take it beyond the 24 election. So I'm not sure what type of impact it would have on him.

But he has a strong following among the base. even this week you see polls, 30 percent of the Republican voters want him to run again. and if you get other folks, other candidates in, whether it be DeSantis or Pompeo and others, that 30 percent all of a sudden looks pretty good.

COLLINS: I want to switch, because you did see also the House ethics referrals yesterday for several members of Congress who defied subpoenas from the January 6th committee. One of those is Kevin McCarthy. But you have said that you do believe Kevin McCarthy should be House speaker. He hasn't gotten any closer to getting the votes yet. We are getting closer to January 3rd when the new Congress begins. Are you confident he's going to get there?

UPTON: Well, I don't know what is inside -- I'm not going to be part of the next Congress, so I'm not a voter on that. He is still votes short. He's got two weeks, right, to make it. He needs 218 votes. In our secret ballot that we had of the new members, he got, I think, 188. So he's well short of that. And of course we've got five Republicans that are on record as saying no way are they going to support for Kevin. Somehow he has to whittle that number down to get to 218.

I suspect that we're going to have multiple ballots, and it may take multiple days before a successor to Nancy Pelosi is named. But I'm not sure what his vote count is, but somehow he's got to get 218, and that means he's going to have to break, or break loose as some of those five that are on record saying no way, Kevin.

COLLINS: And some of the demands he's facing is that they want to bring back that motion to vacate where there can be that one vote to potentially oust a sitting speaker. Do you think that's something he should agree to in order to get the votes here?

UPTON: No way. No way. I'll tell you, so what this is, it would be a rule that any single member, Republican or Democrat, could say enough. I'm going to have a vote, demand a vote to vacate the speakership. And then you'd have debate. You could actually do that every day. You could tie the House up in knots for sure. If there's one thing that you didn't like that he did or a committee chair didn't do, it is Nancy Pelosi -- so the Problem Solvers' Caucus of which I'm a member, I'm actually a vice chair of it, we actually helped change the rule in this current Congress to change that vote to vacate the chair being one person. And it was a welcome change. It's obviously what did take down Speaker Ryan and Speaker Boehner, just that threat to vacate the chair, they in essence said enough already. But no speaker should ever agree to this, to go back to the rule where it would just take one member to disrupt the proceedings of the House.

COLLINS: I do want to ask you before you go, you're retiring, and you have spent a lot of time on Capitol Hill, you have seen very different iterations of Congress. I wonder as you're leaving and you see what it looks like on Capitol Hill right now, what you want your legacy as a legislator to be remembered as?

UPTON: Well, my legacy, my grandfather passed away the year that I was elected. And I went through his belongings, and on his desk he had a little brass plaque and it said, just do the right thing. I took that little saying, and I put it on my desk all my years.

My legacy as chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, we actually passed 21st century cures, which Mitch McConnell then said was the most important piece of legislation enacted in that Congress. And what it did was expedite the approval of drugs and devices by the FDA. It was coupled with $45 billion more in health research money.

And fast forward four years later, it was the last bill that Obama signed into law, that was what allowed Pfizer and Moderna and J&J to actually produce, manufacture the COVID vaccine months before it got the FDA approval and be able to send it out and distribute it across the country day one, six to eight months earlier than what it otherwise would have been, saving hundreds of thousands of lives.

It was bipartisan, took a lot of effort. Vice President Biden was a key component of that. But at the end of the day, you look back at my years in congress, that's what I'm most proud of.

COLLINS: Well, thank you for sharing that with us, Congressman Fred Upton, as you are retiring. And thanks for joining us this morning to talk about this and your legacy.

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UPTON: I wore my Michigan Wolverine just for my Bama friends.

COLLINS: Oh, come on. Don't do that to me. We were having a nice moment.

UPTON: Yes.

COLLINS: All right. Well, I'd love to say Roll Tide now. Thank you so much.

LEMON: Let's get you out of this. We're going to bring in now CNN Senior Political Analyst and anchor John Avlon. Also with us, Steve Bannon's attorney, David Schoen. He was also former President Trump's defense lawyer during the second impeachment trial. We're so glad to have all of you on.

David, don't worry, we're going to get to you, but I'm going to get to John who's in the studio now. John, give us your takeaways from yesterday. What do you think?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): Look, this is history in the present tense. You can't overestimate the significance of a bipartisan panel recommending the former president for criminal prosecution. Now, obviously, this is a recommendation, but look at the charges they're bringing forward particularly to aid and insight and insurrection, as well as conspiracy to defraud the United States. These are charges that are deep with history.

And so, you know, the weight of history is on us. And I think Trump's alleged crimes against the Constitution, against our democracy, rise to that level.

LEMON: David, I'm interested in what you have to say because you've been saying that you're -- you've said that you're disappointed in how this committee handled what's going on. Why is that? They handled, you said, this important endeavor. That's a quote from you. What would you like to see be done differently? DAVID SCHOEN, FORMER TRUMP DEFENSE LAWYER: Well, I suppose -- I respectfully disagree with the earlier statement that this was in any way a bipartisan committee. What I'm disappointed by was the composition of the committee from the start. If you believe as I do that the events of January 6 were monumentally significant, then the American people deserve a true investigation by an independent body. And you might say, Mr. McCarthy messed up by not participating in it. He didn't want to legitimize it. And that's a fair criticism.

But of all of the members of Congress, to choose Chairman Thompson as the head of the invest -- so-called Investigative Committee when he had a lawsuit personally against President Trump alleging that President Trump was personally responsible for the events and for his, Chairman Thompson's personal injuries, to pick that person as the head of the Investigative Committee just sends a terrible message. The process is important. And you have Congressman Raskin --

LEMON: But isn't that something that could be litigated -- isn't that something -- excuse me.

SCHOEN: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

LEMON: Isn't that something that should be litigated in court because there were people who were injured who suffered not only mental but -- not only physical, but mental injuries as well as part of what happened on January 6? And as you said, you correctly pointed out McCarthy did have the opportunity to place sensible Republicans, rational Republicans, not disruptors on the committee, and chose not to. Isn't that McCarthy's own fault? Isn't that Republicans' own fault?

SCHOEN: I think he made a mistake with that. However, he didn't -- he felt he was legitimizing the process, I think, by doing that. It was unprecedented as I think even Speaker Pelosi acknowledged.

LEMON: You don't think it was a legitimate process?

SCHOEN: I think it was an illegitimate process. You also -- by the way, there are additional conflicts. I'm talking about the process. You have Mr. Raskin and Mr. Schiff on there who've written books about the event laying blame. They have a personal interest in ensuring that the committee comes out with the right result.

All I'm saying is the American public deserves to have members of the committee who weren't marked by conflicts having a full and fair investigation of all aspects of this. That's why I'm disappointed.

AVLON: Respectfully, though, I'd suggest, the problem isn't the process, right? The problem isn't process. The problem is January 6 and the actions that led up to it. And of course, you've got Republicans Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger on the committee. And what was striking yesterday, I think, in the videos that were shown in the testimony is that the vast majority was from Republicans, Trump loyalists who recognize what occurred and would caution the president against pursuing this path, but he did anyway. SCHOEN: Of course, many rational people feel that the course of action wasn't appropriate. What I object to is the partisan political criminalization -- weaponization of the criminal process. This isn't the way to go through criminal charges or a non-bipartisan -- a partisan committee. That's my problem with it. I think the American people are entitled to the full story and the true story, but half of the public can't accept it because of those who are delivering the message.

COLLINS: Well, David, I think we have to point out here though, of course, your client, Steve Bannon was found guilty on contempt of Congress charges for defying a subpoena from this committee.

SCHOEN: Right, absolutely fair to point that out. And you should also point out then that the judge who ruled against us on every legal issue has now issued an order saying that he finds it likely that the result will be reversed and lead to a new trial. Not possible, likely.

COLLINS: Do you think that Steve Bannon is contempt of Congress charge is going to be reversed ultimately?

SCHOEN: I think it certainly should be. No one ever knows what a Court of Appeals is going to do. But I think for every American out there, it should be. The definition of willfully in that case was absolutely wrong. The judge has acknowledged that on about six occasions that he thinks he was wrong in construing the law but that his hands were tied.

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COLLINS: Well, it was a federal jury that found him guilty, we should note.

LEMON: Just real quick on something. I just want to follow up on something that you said to John. You said that the people that you think that many people won't accept the result because of who the messenger is. But what if all -- why does a messenger matters so much than the actual evidence and the act?

SCHOEN: Well, because evidence can be skewed by the messenger. In other words, they might only seek out evidence along certain line --

LEMON: Not when it comes to the Department of Justice. Come on, David.

SCHOEN: Pardon?

LEMON: Not when not when it comes to the Department of Justice. It's not -- the evidence matters over who the messenger is. Come on, let's be -- let's be real here.

SCHOEN: Oh, I think that -- I hope that's right. But remember, the Department of Justice also has been politicized in every administration quite frankly. And now you have is the number two person Lisa Monaco --

LEMON: Not like the former administration. That's not true. That's not true, David. That's not true.

SCHOEN: Pardon? Pardon?

LEMON: The Department of Justice has not politicized the way it has than the former administration, especially when --

SCHOEN: That's your view. I respect it. I respect your view.

LEMON: No, that's not just my view. Those are the facts. The evidence points -- all evidence points in that direction.

SCHOEN: Again, that's your view.

LEMON: That's not my view. It's a fact.

SCHOEN: You're mistaken.

LEMON: OK, David, thank you. I appreciate it. John Avlon, thank you so much. Straight ahead, January 6 Committee Member Congressman Adam Schiff is going to join us live. What he expects should happen? That's next.

COLLINS: Also this morning, a 6.4 magnitude earthquake that we told you about earlier that has shaken Humboldt County, California. CNN's Veronica Miracle is there live in San Francisco. Veronica, I know we were talking earlier about thousands without power because of this. What are you learning so far?

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Yes, we understand that as of now, about 70 percent of Humboldt County remains without power. That's about 70,000 people in the dark as officials assess the damage. Aftershocks continue from this very large earthquake in the coastal -- near the coastal community of Ferndale, but officials are saying that there is no tsunami threat at this time.

There are reports, however, of damage to roadways, debris on roadways, cracks on a large bridge that connects the community, Fernbridge. And the CHP right now shutting down that bridge out of an abundance of caution as they assess the damage. We're also hearing reports of damage to homes in the area in terms of what's happening inside. We're seeing videos of shelves knocked down, glassware, and Chinaware broken as people wake up and assess the damage.

Again, 70 percent of those people in that county were without power this morning. And the Humboldt County Sheriff's office asking people not to call 911 unless it's an immediate emergency. Kaitlan?

COLLINS: That's good information there. Veronica, thank you.

All right, Title 42 is remaining in place for now but it's very much still in limbo. Officials are still bracing for a surge. We'll get reaction to the decision when Judge Richard Cortez of Hidalgo County, Texas joins us next for his perspective.

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COLLINS: Despite the Supreme Court's temporary freeze that it's going to keep Title 42 in place for now, the White House and officials at the Southern Border say they're pushing ahead with efforts to plan for -- if it's lifted, anticipating that that will happen soon. Border towns had been bracing for days for a surge of migrants because this pandemic-era Public Health Authority that was put in place by the Trump administration allowed border officials to quickly expel migrants. It was set to expire. It raised a lot of concerns.

So, joining us now is Judge Richard Cortez of Hidalgo County, Texas. It sits on the U.S.-Mexico border. He is a Democrat who has said that ending Title 42, he fears, would be a nightmare. So, I just want to thank you for joining us this morning, Judge. And what's your response to what you saw from the Supreme Court because the problem here, and I assume your view is that it's just temporary and not a permanent fix?

RICHARD CORTEZ (D), JUDGE, HIDALGO COUNTY, TEXAS: Yes, well, quite honestly, we're relieved that Title 42 has been extended. We were preparing for the worst. We made all the preparations we possibly could to be able to accommodate large inflow of people. You know, we were pretty -- almost already to capacity in some of our locations that we hold some of these immigrants.

So, thank goodness, it gives a little more time to adjust and to hopefully reflect on the successes and the failures that this board and policy has had. So, we're -- I think most of us are very pleased with the extension.

LEMON: So, I want to ask you about the Biden Administration. You have been urging this administration, especially the President to come to the border to see what is happening. Have you heard anything from the President? And I'm sure you would like this to be permanent because this is -- this is an administrative -- a decision by the administration. This is a decision by the Chief Justice.

CORTEZ: Well, you know, thank you for asking me that question. I really appreciate, you know, the questions that you asked me. Here again, you know, every time we talk about border issues, we're talking about what's wrong, the problem is that we very rarely talk about the solutions. The solution really is that the United States of America is trying to solve this border problem with an enforcement-only policy and it hasn't worked.

The blame really to me is in Congress. Congress has the right to look into comprehensive immigration reform and put laws that are -- that are proper in today's environment. All economists that I've spoken to, articles that I've read, America needs immigrants to maintain and grow our economy. So, if that is true, and we all want immigrants to come here legally, then the only way we can make -- have that happen is for Congress to change the laws.

So, that to me is my best contribution, you know, going forward because continue to put as many resources and still having the problems that we had -- we had over 73,000 illegal immigrants come to our area. They're coming in from multiple, multiple, multiple places. What are the facts? We know that our worst asylum seekers are coming in. Many of them have not been adjudicated yet. And those that have been adjudicated only 10 percent qualified. The ones that tell you -- telling you that our system isn't working.

COLLINS: It doesn't seem likely that Congress will act anytime soon though.

LEMON: Yes. Judge, thank you. We appreciate it.

CORTEZ: Well, hopefully --

LEMON: Go on. Finish your thought.

CORTEZ: No, I'm hoping that the new Congress, when it forums next year, hopefully, will take a look at this thing because we can't just keep putting more resources into the problem because it hasn't work. Thank you for allowing me to say this.

LEMON: Judge, thank you. We appreciate you joining us once again.

And up next, we're going to be joined by a member of the January 6 Committee, Congressman Adam Schiff.

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