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Jordan Rooney is Interviewed about Damar Hamlin; Alfred Titus Jr. is Interviewed about the Idaho Murders; Fraud Case Against Santos. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 03, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: I mean everything we've heard is he's extraordinary.

JORDAN ROONEY, DAMAR HAMLIN'S FRIEND AND MARKETING REP.: Yes. You know, I think that, you know, it gets thrown around a lot like, you know, he's more than an athlete, but, I mean, he truly is someone that, like, he's in the NFL because he wants to be a role model. Like, part of what drives Damar is to be an example for the other young people in his community. I mean he is someone that truly embodies what it means to - to be someone you want to look up to.

HARLOW: Wow.

ROONEY: I mean, toy drives, back to school drives. I mean just giving people time out of his day. I mean, Damar is the ideal professional athlete.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: So I've got -- you said, listen, you can't talk specifically - I know that you're not a medical person here, but do you -- there was an update that you said, his vitals are back to normal and they have put him to sleep and put a breathing tube down his throat. They are currently running tests. That was, obviously, last night. But when he - so was he conscious when he went to the hospital and did they -

ROONEY: So -

LEMON: Yes, go on.

ROONEY: Yes, so, you know, once - I can't speak specifically on that. So, my update was more of, you know, there was a lot of speculation going on at the time of what was going on with him because people had seen CPR being performed. So, you know, his condition was stable at the time. But that, you know, wasn't saying that, you know, hey, everything is - everything's perfectly fine now. It was that - you know, they got him into a stable condition at least and from there they were going to do testing. And that's what's been going on since then.

LEMON: And his family is --

ROONEY: His vitals were stable. LEMON: His vitals were stable, you said?

ROONEY: That's - you know, I can't speak medically to it, but at the time that's - that's what was going on.

LEMON: Yes. And his mom is there. His family's there. Can you take us inside of, you know, what's happening and what they're -- what you saw and what they're dealing with?

ROONEY: Yes, I mean, he has a strong family. I mean he has the - the ideal support system. I mean they're optimistic. Damar - Damar is someone that - that you would trust and - and believe to - to come out on top of - of anything that - that he is faced with. So, you know, they - they know Damar. I know Damar. And we're confident that no matter what he's facing, he is going come out on top.

HARLOW: Let's, Jordan, talk a little bit more about the Damar you know, I want to play for our viewers something he said in November, talking about one of his -- one of his teammates who was injured. Here's how he talked about, you know, the fragility of life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAMAR HAMLIN, BUFFALO BILLS PLAYER: You never know when, like, the last day could be that you getting to experience something like this, you know. So, I'm just -- I'm cherishing it every moment I can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Man, he's only 24.

ROONEY: Yes. I mean, Damar is, you know, emotionally intelligent. I mean he's compassionate. I mean he's someone that, I mean, he can turn it on in a second, be charismatic. He's great with people. I mean he is someone that, and, you know, I think the more you talk to people who know him, like it - it -- I'm not just saying it to say it. Like, it could be confirmed. Like, there isn't -- there isn't that many people who are like Damar. And for him, like, you know, I view something like this as just - as just another step along the way to his journey of inspiring more people.

LEMON: Jordan, we talked about his family. His mom, obviously, and our hearts go out to them. But also the -- let's talk about the players and what they're dealing with. We saw the emotion really spilling over obviously onto the field and just all over the country last night as people watched this in shock. Talk to us about what the players are dealing with at this moment.

ROONEY: Yes, i mean, I can't speak specifically, you know, for those players. I mean I think it's probably a lot of mixed emotions for them. I mean, you know, you get to see their reactions. I think it's just important for everyone to know, like, you can't dehumanize these guys. Like, you know, you may watch them on TV, you may be a fan of them, but, like, this is very real. There's very real emotions involved with this. And I think you - you got to see that from them last night. But I can't speak specifically on how they're feeling. LEMON: Well, Jordan, we are so grateful to you. We know it's a very

tough moment. We're grateful to you for coming on. And our condolences to, you know, as to what happened. But will you tell the family we're thinking about them and we're hoping that he pulls through and we're hoping that everything works out OK.

So, thank you so much, OK?

ROONEY: Thanks, Don.

HARLOW: Thanks, Jordan.

LEMON: Jordan Rooney, as you said, probably the closest person --

HARLOW: I think so, that we've heard from, for sure.

LEMON: Yes. Yes.

HARLOW: Yes.

LEMON: So, Kaitlan, we're watching what happens there in Cincinnati and we're watching what's happening in Washington right now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, two major stories that are playing out this morning.

Here on Capitol Hill, the new congress, as you know, Don and Poppy, is set to convene today. The vote for the House speaker is just a few hours away, but very much still in question as Kevin McCarthy has still been working to lock down the votes that he needs to take the gavel.

[08:35:10]

We've learned that he met privately with some of his potential opponents ahead of today's high-stakes vote.

Joining us now is Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Brian Fitzpatrick.

Thank you so much.

You know, the question is, is Kevin McCarthy going to get to 218 today?

REP. BRIAN FITZPATRICK (R-PA): He'll get there. I don't know if it's going to be today. That's going to be an open question. We have a meeting at 9:00 this morning.

So what you're going to see transpire today. You're going to see Cheryl Johnson. Everyone's going to know her name soon. She's the clerk of the House. She's going to gavel out. Around noon she's going to gavel out the 117th Congress, gavel in the 118th. And since there's no rules passed yet, she has the authority to only do two things. Number one, call a quorum vote, where we all show up and vote present on the floor, and then, second, call the speaker vote. And she only has the authority to call the speaker vote if nobody gets to 218, to call it the second time, the third time, until or if somebody makes a privileged motion to adjourn, which also requires 218 votes.

So, a lot of it's uncertain as to how it's going to play out today. It's going to be dependent on some of the detractors that are still asking for some more concessions by Speaker-elect McCarthy.

COLLINS: So, if it doesn't happen today, how long could it take?

FITZPATRICK: Who knows. I mean it's taken six months in the history of our country a few times, right. So, we just don't know the answer to that.

I think it's going to be interesting to see, in the first round, what the vote tally is. The second round apparently a new name is going to be offered. Nobody knows who that is. But our colleagues in the Freedom Caucus have indicated that they're going to offer somebody's name up. We don't know if that's someone inside or outside of the conference. If it's someone inside, then they have to accept that nomination and presumably vote for themselves.

So, a lot of that's unknown right now. So, it's going to be an interesting thing to watch it play out.

COLLINS: Well, your name has been floated as a potential alternative as people have been asking, you know, who else is viable, who else could actually get the support.

FITZPATRICK: Yes. I said Kevin's going to be the speaker. I don't think there's any question about it. I think the question is how many rounds it takes.

COLLINS: And how many rounds are you prepared to - to vote for him for?

FITZPATRICK: Well, you know, as long as he's in, you know, we've committed to support him. You know, the guy - loyalty has got to mean --

COLLINS: What do you mean as long as he's in?

FITZPATRICK: Well, as long as he's considering - as long as he's nominated on the floor. So, if his name is up for consideration. You know, you got -- if people put in the work, that's got to - that's got to pay off for them at some point. But, Kevin, you know, he's led the GOP for four years now. He's brought them for the majority - the minority to the majority. He's worked very, very hard. He's got very broad support throughout the conference and, you know, that's -- that's got to - that's got to mean something.

So, I think that he's going to get there. I really do.

COLLINS: He's been making these concessions to the hard-liners who are right now still no votes against him. Does he have more concessions he can offer to them, you think? FITZPATRICK: Well, the problem is the concessions keep changing as far

as what's being asked of him. So, I know, you know, we had a meeting with him last night. He met with some of his detractors last night as well. So, it's an evolving situation.

You know, obviously, the issue of the motion to vacate the chair, which essentially is a Jeffersonian rule that allows one member to basically call for the vacation of the speakership, and that's been a subject of debate because it was used to weaponize certain people against that speaker, Boehner, which made it very hard for the House to operate. So, that's been a point of contention. He could bring it down to one technically. I don't know what that would mean for the more centrist members of Congress, but a lot of that's in flux. So -

COLLINS: Yes, are you worried about the concessions that he's making?

FITZPATRICK: I'm not. I think a lot of them are good. They're meant to be -- open the House up, have more member input. That's something that a lot of us want, by the way. There's 435 members of the House, yet the way things have currently and previously run, not all 435 members have an equal voice. It should be that way because we all represent roughly 700,000 people. Each one of those 700,000 people in each one of our districts are entitled to an equal voice on the floor of the House. So, to the extent that that's the end goal here, we support that.

COLLINS: You've been talking to Kevin McCarthy. What's his mindset right now?

FITZPATRICK: Well, he knows how many votes he has and he knows how many votes are still open. Some people have committed to voting against him. Some people have been more ambiguous about it. So, we're not going to know until the vote is called today exactly where people stand and we're just going to have to watch these (INAUDIBLE) round play out. But I do believe he's going to get there.

COLLINS: If it's not Kevin McCarthy, do you think the alternative is someone who's in the House or someone who's outside of the House?

FITZPATRICK: Outside of the House.

COLLINS: Really?

FITZPATRICK: I don't think - yes. I don't think that there is enough people that are willing to set the precedent that you can work for four years and bring a party from the minority to the majority and then get jettisoned at the end. Nobody's ever going to put the work in if that happens. So, I think that the - the impetus would be to go outside of the House at that point.

COLLINS: Who - who from outside the House potentially?

FITZPATRICK: It could be -- who knows. And we're not even thinking that far because I really do believe Kevin's going to get there. So, we'll cross that bridge if and when it comes, but I don't think we're going to get there. [08:40:03]

COLLINS: We'll see if you do.

Congressman, thank you for joining us to share some insight.

FITZPATRICK: You bet.

COLLINS: I know you have a very busy meeting coming up at 9:00 with your fellow Republicans.

FITZPATRICK: We do. Yes.

COLLINS: Thank you.

FITZPATRICK: Yes.

COLLINS: Don and Poppy, interesting there, you know, we're been talking about who could be an alternative. He says maybe it's someone who's outside the House that could be an alternative House speaker.

HARLOW: I'm just -- I have been talking off Kaitlan's ear about this last week saying, can that happen? Can that happen? We'll see.

LEMON: It can. It can.

COLLINS: Anything can happen.

HARLOW: Yes.

LEMON: Yes. Anything is possible.

OK, so in just a few hours, the suspect in the killing of four Idaho college students will face a judge. We're going to speak to a former homicide detective about the criminal profile of this suspect.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Today the man now suspected of killing four University of Idaho college students will make his first appearance in a Pennsylvania court. His name is Bryan Kohberger. His attorney says his client will waive extradition, which will speed up his return to Idaho where he's been charged with four counts of first degree murder and felony burglary.

[08:45:01]

He -- his attorney says he believes he is going to be exonerated and that he should be presumed innocent until proven otherwise.

It took investigators seven weeks to find him as a suspect. Seven weeks after the victims were found stabbed to death in their off campus home. The murder weapon has not been found. Police have also not, at least publicly, confirmed a motive, but through DNA sources say investigators honed in on Kohberger as their main suspect. Joining us now is former NYPD homicide detective and hostage

negotiator, also an adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Alfred Titus Jr.

Good morning.

ALFRED TITUS JR., FORMER NYPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE AND HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Good morning.

HARLOW: Professor, detective, all your hats.

TITUS: Thank you.

HARLOW: I find it super interesting that you have the same degree, a Ph.D. in criminology, that Kohberger was going for. Let's just start with the DNA link that they said led them here.

TITUS: Yes. Well, DNA has become vitally important in investigations throughout the years. In this particular case, it is the key to identifying the suspect in this case. They were able to find a small trace amount of DNA, and through the DNA process, through the genealogy process, they were able to narrow it down, probably to an individual. And then the profile of the individual comes into play and all of the other aspects, and they got their man.

LEMON: From a crime scene can you -- can it be an indicator of certain personality traits as we had someone who was -- he was the TA, right?

TITUS: Right.

LEMON: Mr. Kohberger was his TA?

TITUS: Yes.

LEMON: And he said, you know, he had exhibited sort of -- he seemed aloof in the last couple of days before -- and during what happened. But can you pick up a personality - personality traits from a crime scene?

TITUS: Absolutely. A crime scene tells a lot about the individual who commits the crime. I am - I am under the impression that this crime scene was meticulously handled, meaning that there were -- that things were purposefully cleaned and removed and, you know, he, being someone who studied criminology, he purposefully tried his best not to leave any evidence anywhere. So, that tells you a lot about an individual. Not only it tells about the individual himself, but his mindset. It is definitely predetermined. It is planned. It is - it is completely, like, a blueprint for this individual.

LEMON: But if you - and you said, you know, he purposefully did these things. But even having -- going for the degree that you have and trying to be what you are, right, professionally, is there such a thing as the perfect, you know, cleaning up the evidence and the perfect crime and that sort of thing?

TITUS: Well - HARLOW: Apparently not if they got DNA.

LEMON: Yes.

TITUS: Right. Absolutely. That is - that is --

LEMON: Shouldn't he know that? Yes.

TITUS: Right. He should - he should have known that. That is the problem. Regardless of how careful you are at a crime scene, you will -- the minute you walk into a room, you're leaving DNA in that room, whether you realize it or not, whether it could be collected or not, you're leaving DNA in that room just from skin cells falling off of your - off of your hands or whatever.

So, there is always DNA everywhere. And he should have been aware of that. I just believe that he did not think that the police would be able to get this type of DNA from him. I'm sure he's very surprised the FBI was brought in. He's very surprised that the case went to this -- that depth. He was probably under the impression that the Idaho Police Department was going to handle this and he felt -- he probably felt he was smarter than them, you know?

LEMON: Yes, that's what I was going to say, you know.

HARLOW: Yes.

TITUS: Yes.

HARLOW: Alfred Titus, Jr., thank you very much.

TITUS: OK. Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. We really appreciate it.

HARLOW: Now this, he told lie after lie to get elected. Now just hours before he takes office, Brazil may revive a fraud case against Congressman-elect George Santos. That reporting is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:53:23]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE SANTOS (R), NEW YORK CONG.-ELECT: So I always joked, I'm Catholic but I'm also Jew-ish, as in ish.

So I grew up fully aware that my grandparents were Jewish, came from - from a Jewish family and they were refugees to Brazil. And that was always the story I grew up with and I've always known it very well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: I mean, we could go through all the lies. There are some that are up there. But how long would that take us, right? HARLOW: Oi (ph).

LEMON: Not Jewish but Jew-ish. The descendant of Holocaust. Not the descendant of Holocaust survivors. And he's never worked for Goldman Sachs. Those are just some of the lies Congressman-elect George Santos told to get elected. And despite those lies being exposed, Santos will be sworn in today into Congress. I - it's unbelievable.

And now Brazilian officials are likely to reinstate fraud charges against him. In 2008 he reportedly made purchases using a stolen checkbook and a fake name. Last month CNN confirmed a report from "The New York Times" that Santos was charged with embezzlement in a Brazilian court in 2011. That charge was received after officials couldn't track him down. So, he reportedly already was in the United States. So, let's see that was archived not achieved. I said that wrong. Archived after they couldn't track him down.

So, joining us now, "New York Times" reporter Grace Ashford and CNN's senior political analyst and anchor, John Avlon.

Hello to both of you. Grace, hi.

Kaitlan is here as well.

Grace, you - you have been reporting on this story out of Brazil where Santos is denying that he committed a crime, saying there's nothing criminal, never -- nothing ever happened, right?

[08:55:02]

But the report says that he has previously admitted to it. Another shocking twist here.

GRACE ASHFORD, REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Good morning. Thank you so much for having me.

Yes, this comes right on the eve of Santos' swearing in to Congress today. Certainly a layer of unwanted additional scrutiny. And, yes, he's completely denied the existence of these charges that we raised in our reporting a couple of weeks ago. But the court records shows that Mr. Santos actually did admit to using this checkbook, both to police and to the shop owner, who he sent a message to on a Brazilian social media site promising to pay. And it was, you know, only after Mr. Santos and his mother actually admitted that he had stolen this checkbook and made these purchases, you know, that the procedure - you know, that the charges were approved and that the procedure was able to continue.

HARLOW: Yes.

ASHFORD: Of course, after that happened, Mr. Santos could not be found by prosecutors and our reporting shows that he actually returned to the United States.

HARLOW: Kaitlan, Grace's reporting is super interesting this morning because she also outlines how this case is going to proceed, right? It's been, you know, referred to the Justice Department. They'll notify him of the charges. It will proceed whether he agrees or not to cooperate at all in a - with him in absentia if it has to.

I just wonder, Kaitlan, you've been talking to Republicans in the House all morning on The Hill. What do they think of this?

COLLINS: Republicans find him really embarrassing. You know, we have talked a lot on this show about Republican leadership being very quiet on this. A lot of that has to do with why I'm here today, that vote for House speaker for Kevin McCarthy. A lot of people expect that he'll be more vocal once that has actually ended.

But you also haven't seen a lot of support for George Santos from his fellow Republicans. I mean he is now under investigation locally, federally and now, with this confirmation, internationally in Brazil. And so it just speaks to that.

But, you know, you heard Mike Lawler earlier say that his conduct, he believes, is embarrassing. And so, yes, he is going to be sworn in today. He has said that that is still his plan. But Republicans around him are not rallying around him. And I don't think he's going to get a very warm reception here on Capitol Hill and he's going to face a lot of questions from reporters who basically has unfettered access to lawmakers in the halls of Congress.

LEMON: So, John, listen, embarrassed, but not embarrassed enough to speak out, you know, vocally and forcefully. McCarthy certainly is not really weighing in on this because he needs a thing - needs the votes.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST AND ANCHOR: That's right.

LEMON: So, where does this put us? What does this say about the culture of lying in our country and what -- his place in the Republican Party?

AVLON: It shows how much we have put the pursuit of power over principle. That shamelessness has become table stakes in politics. And this is all downstream from Donald Trump. Let's be honest about this.

To some extent, lying has become normalized or we are in danger of becoming numb to it. This case is so extraordinary, though, because this guy - this isn't, you know, resume embellishment. Fabulust (ph) is a fancy word. This is a serial liar about every aspect of his biography. And that raises real questions about - you know, Dan Goldman has suggested, a former federal prosecutor, also incoming freshman congressman, conspiracy to defraud the United States, lying on financial disclosure forms is also illegal. There are still questions out there. "The North Shore Leader," a local paper in his district, reported before the election that his net worth went from - in 18 months from being below $5,000 to over $11 million.

HARLOW: Yes, how?

AVLON: So they're still -- how? Follow the money. So it's still a lot of questions. But the culture of lying is decreasing trust in our society, which is already plummeting, and that's dangerous for democracy.

LEMON: You said -- and how? I mean, listen, Kaitlan and Grace, how is he being seated? Like I am - obviously, you know --

HARLOW: Because he has to constitutionally.

LEMON: Well, I - but there should be calls, right, for people -- in the old days -- we talked about this. Usually you just to shame (ph) and you're like, listen, I'm sorry.

HARLOW: Right.

LEMON: You know, like, I don't have the confidence or the trust of the people who voted for me.

AVLON: In the old days - in the old days you wouldn't even get seated.

LEMON: Yes.

AVLON: They would refuse to seat you.

LEMON: Yes.

AVLON: But that -- that was a different deal.

LEMON: Yes.

AVLON: But, no, yes, this is where shamelessness comes in.

LEMON: Yes.

AVLON: This is where character comes in. And this is where Republicans need to lead.

LEMON: Yes.

Hey, Grace, real quick -

COLLINS: And, Don, it's all - it's all about the numbers.

LEMON: Is there - hold on one second, I just want to ask Grace if there's any - before Katelin comes in because I want you to end this because that's what you're doing. So, I want you to have the final stamp on this.

But, Grace, is there anything new in the reporting that we should know about before we let Kaitlan close us out here?

ASHFORD: Well, you mentioned -- but whether - I mean this is not, you know, extradition. This is not - he's not being forced to respond to these charges. So, depending on how he chooses to, he could either, you know, stay, continue to serve in Congress. He could go back. He could - I believe they're obtaining local counsel. But if he is found guilty, in abstentia or, you know, in person, he could face one to five years in jail in Brazil and a fine. So, these are not - these are small charges but these are not nothing. So, there's that as well. LEMON: John, Grace, thank you very much.

Kaitlan, this is why you're there today, to cover all of this madness.

COLLINS: Yes. George Santos is just one of the many who is joining this 118th Congress here that is set to happen in just a few moments.

And as, Don and Poppy, you were noting, it's going to be a fascinating day to see not just what happens with Kevin McCarthy.

[09:00:01]

Maybe that doesn't actually even come to an end today.

HARLOW: Wow.

COLLINS: You know, it's rare that you hear from some of the best reporters here on The Hill who say, we don't know what's going to happen, but that really is the case for today.

HARLOW: Are you telling us you might not be sitting here tomorrow? You might still be there? Come back.

COLLINS: I miss you guys. We'll see.

HARLOW: Come back.

COLLINS: We'll see how crazy it gets.

LEMON: She's going to need a hug tomorrow.

HARLOW: Great - and great interviews.

LEMON: Yes.

HARLOW: To have all those lawmakers, Republicans on, Democrats this morning.

Kaitlan, see you soon.

Thanks to all of you. What are morning. We're all praying for Damar.

LEMON: Yes.

HARLOW: Absolutely.

LEMON: Thank you, everyone.

HARLOW: Thank you. CNN -

LEMON: Continue watching.

HARLOW: Yes, CNN "NEWSROOM" is now.