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CNN This Morning

Fmr. Gov. Nikki Haley (R-SC) Launches Presidential Bid, Kicking Off GOP 2024 Primary Race; Michigan State University Identifies Victims of Campus Gunman; White House Says, Leading Theory is Benign Balloons were Shot Down. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired February 15, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:00:00]

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see something I can't tell if it's metallic or what, and there's -- I can see like lines coming down below, but you can't see anything below it.

It's just some kind of dark object. You can see some strings or something hanging down below it. I can't tell if it's holding anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Well, this is a story that everybody is just sort of fascinated with. Like is it a bird, is it a plane? What is it, right?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Even the pilots want to know.

LEMON: Everyone wants to know. Good morning, everyone. Poppy is on assignment.

That was, by the way, new cockpit audio of a U.S. fighter jet intercepting a mysterious flying object over Michigan. More on that in a moment.

But, first, Donald Trump's first major 2024 challenger kicking off the race with a speech just hours from now. How many other Republicans will join the fray? That's a question as well.

COLLINS: Spoiler alert, a lot.

Meanwhile, Trump's legal team and legal jeopardy could be getting deeper over classified documents that he took to Mar-a-Lago. The Justice Department is now saying that they believe there is evidence of a crime as they are trying to force one of his attorneys to testify without attorney-client privilege.

LEMON: Plus, he was previously arrested on a felony gun charge. So, why and how did the Michigan State mass shooter have a pistol in the first place? And there's a new study from the Secret Service. Is there a typical profile of a mass shooter? We'll get to all that.

But we're going to begin in South Carolina. That is where the contentious race to be the Republican presidential nominee is starting to take off. Just hours from now, Donald Trump's first major challenger, Nikki Haley, set to give her official announcement speech in Charleston. In the past, Haley has said that she would never run against her former boss. But she kicked off her campaign with a video that took some digs at Trump.

As a field of contenders begins to build, it is unclear how crowded it will get. But it could get really crowded. There are plenty -- how do we fit all the people on the screen?

COLLINS: That must have taken the graphics department forever.

LEMON: Do we have to shrink them down? Do we have to like squeeze them in their faces together there?

COLLINS: It's like a game if you can name everybody.

LEMON: Yes, mixed potential candidates who might take on Trump up on your screen right now.

CNN's Political Director David Chalian joins us now with more. David, you got your work cut out for you. First up, Nikki Haley expected to host a first event of her 2024 presidential campaign later today. So, what do we expect? What should we expect?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. This is the beginning, right? This is the entering of a new phase. Donald Trump has had the entire campaign to himself, the only declared major candidate since November. Now, it begins with Nikki Haley getting in. And prepare yourself because she's not -- it's not going to be a one-on-one Haley versus Trump for all that long. There will be a lot more folks getting in.

But who is Nikki Haley? Well, here is some of the information for you. She is 51 years old. She is a first generation American. She is the former U.N. ambassador in the Trump administration. She was the first female governor of South Carolina. She was elected to two terms. She didn't finish her second term because she went into the Trump administration. And she led the removal of that confederate flag from the South Carolina statehouse in one of her highest profile moments as governor of South Carolina.

COLLINS: Yes. She has got quite the resume. But one big question is -- and we just looked at that graphic of everyone we think is going to run for this GOP nomination. So, how is she going to set herself apart, David? What do we expect her to say at this event?

CHALIAN: Yes, Kaitlan. I think she gave us a good preview in that video that you guys just showed a little bit of that where she is going to make a generational argument, that it's time for a new generation of leadership. That, of course, is both inside the context of the Republican primary, Donald Trump on the older end, but also in taking on Joe Biden, the oldest person to serve as president.

And she will do -- I think, try to do two things here. She is going to offer some red meat to the Republican base primary voter, talking about things like America is not racist and we have to get back to our foundational values, the kinds of things that excite the base to hear, but she is also going to try to broaden the appeal of the Republican brand, by talking about her story as a child of immigrants, a woman of color. So, she's going to try to expand sort of the very image of the Republican Party in her speech as well.

LEMON: All right. Let's talk about the other folks up there on the screen that we squeezed everybody's face on.

[07:05:00]

We expect Senator Tim Scott to jump in soon. So, give us a better sense of other Republican candidates that may be in the running here.

CHALIAN: Yes. I narrowed it down just a little bit from that graphic, because I think these eight folks that you see here are the most likely, I think, to make a bid. They're the ones forming operations, doing a lot of the early leg work. So, in addition to Tim Scott, as you said, and, Don, by the way, he's having his own event in South Carolina tomorrow. He's not going to be in Iowa. He is definitely on a presidential listening tour, if you will.

You have got Ron DeSantis in Florida, of course. He's not likely to get in until his legislature wraps its business at end of May, beginning of June. Mike Pompeo, Mike Pence, two former administration officials under Donald Trump. And then you have Asa Hutchison, the former governor of Arkansas. Glenn Youngkin, Chris Sununu, the governor of New Hampshire, and Larry Hogan, the former governor of Maryland.

Obviously, they all occupy sort of a different space inside the Republican Party, but I think these folks are likely to get in.

Who's not getting in? Well, some folks have made it clear. Tom Cotton, the senator from Arkansas, said, no thank you, he's not going to do it. Marco Rubio just yesterday said he's not running. And Ted Cruz indicated he is focused on re-election in Texas.

LEMON: I will say something positive about those three people is that they're smart. Because who would want to be president of the United States? I always say that, but go on.

COLLINS: Marco Rubio said, why would he run and miss all the fun that's happening on Capitol Hill right now?

LEMON: True, true. All right, thank you, David, a lot to get to, we'll see him later on. We're going to be following Nikki Haley in South Carolina, lots of coverage and David will be a part of it. We'll see you a little bit later.

COLLINS: Yes. Also this morning, we are tracking one of the most aggressive moves that we've seen yet from the special counsel who is investigating Trump's handling of classified documents. Jack Smith is that special counsel. He and federal prosecutors are now alleging in writing to a judge that they believe the former president has used one of his attorneys, Evan Corcoran, in furthering a crime or fraud. Therefore, they want to get to what is known as the crime fraud exception, which means they would be able to speak to Evan Corcoran again, this time though without that protection of attorney-client privilege. They're asking a court to compel Evan Corcoran to testify again before the grand jury. He already did so for about four hours last month.

CNN's Senior Legal Affairs Correspondent Paula Reid is joining us now. Paula, you and I have been tracking this legal team and what's happening with this investigation ever since really this started, but really with that search of Mar-a-Lago. This is a really big deal though.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: This is a big deal. This is more aggressive moves we've seen from the special counsel, alleging that there was potentially criminal activity by the former president and his attorneys.

So, prosecutors want Corcoran to come back and they want the court to force him to answer questions. Because the first time he came in, he was, of course, asked about the events leading up to the August search of Mar-a-Lago and he invoked attorney-client privilege, which is what he would be expected to do. That is his right. But now prosecutors are arguing that the court should invoke one of the few exceptions to attorney-client privilege because they say that former President Trump may have used Corcoran's advice or Corcoran himself in furtherance of a crime.

So, this is a significant development in this ongoing grand jury investigation. And I will say the former president has also weighed in on this. His spokesman issued a statement. They described this as, quote, the weaponization of the Justice Department. But it's important to note the current president who appointed the attorney general is also under investigation for retaining classified documents, though, he is not under investigation for possibly trying to obstruct that probe.

COLLINS: Yes. Big questions on whether or not Evan Corcoran may have to go before them without that attorney-client privilege. Of course, we'll see what the judge ultimately decides here. Paula Reid, great reporting. Thank you.

LEMON: Michigan State University has identified the three students tragically killed Monday night by campus gunman. They are Brian Fraser, Alexandria Verner and Arielle Anderson. Arielle was a junior and native of Grosse Pointe. Her high school superintendent told CNN, and I quote here, her kindness was on display every second you were around her. Sophomore Brian Fraser also hailed from Grosse Pointe. He was the president of his fraternity, Phi Delta Theta, and was described as a leader and a friend. And Junior Alexandria Verner was from Clawson, a tiny community north of Detroit, where she knew almost everybody. During her high school years, she was a three-sport athlete as well as an excellent student, active in many leadership groups. Five other students remain in the hospital in critical condition.

And this morning, we are learning new details about the gunman. His father describing him as a mama's boy who became bitter, isolated and angry after his mother died from a stroke two years ago. Anthony Dewayne McCrae, who police said died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound after killing -- his killing spree, was 43 years old. He was charged with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit.

[07:10:01]

That was back in 2019. He pleaded guilty to the misdemeanor and served a year-and-a-half of probation. He was also able to buy two guns in 2021, though, it's not clear, not yet clear if those guns were purchased legally or not.

Most mass shooters exhibit pre-attack behaviors like -- that raise concern in people around them. That's according to a new study by the U.S. Secret Service. But we're curious here, why isn't more being done by the public to report those red flags?

Josh Campbell is digging into the data for us and he joins us now. Josh, good morning to you. So, there was no profile here of a mass shooter, I am told, right? The Michigan State shooter, he compares to other recent incidents, I'm sure. But what is -- is there a profile for a mass shooter? And do these -- especially the latest shooters -- do they stack up to that or line up with that?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don. There is no typical profile. There are commonalities. And the secret service went back and looked at 180 recent mass shooters. And I'll show you as we throw up that graphic, I'll break down what they found, particularly as it relates to age.

Now, the overall majority of recent shooters were young men. But as you look at this Michigan State shooter, 43 years old, he fell within that age range that makes up about 20 percent of recent mass shooters. Now, as we look at the next graph as it pertains to race, investigators found that about 34 percent, about a third of recent mass shooters, were African-American. So, when you combine age and you combine race, he is somewhat of an outlier.

But, Don, one area where he appears to so closely resemble mass shooting characteristics that investigators found pertains to his behavior prior to the attack. Take a listen here to one of the authors of that Secret Service report who told CNN the one commonality that they found in so many of these mass shooters.

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DR. LINA ALATHARI, U.S. SECRET SERVICE: Consistently across the five years that we studied, grievances were by far the most common motive for these attackers. And they could have been related to interpersonal conflicts, workplace grievances.

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CAMPBELL: And so, Don, that investigator telling us that this is what they see, these grievances.

And, of course, we know the shooter's father told CNN that in the past, you know, few couple years, that his son went on this downward spiral, particularly after the death of his mother. Again, that is something that investigators try to look for. Was there some kind of motivating behavior, some kind of factor in their life? It appears that that could have been partially at play here, Don.

LEMON: It's interesting, because always sort of think of it as like maybe a 20 or 30-something-year-old loner, right, that that fits the profile. But you're saying there isn't a specific profile. They're interesting. It's easy, though, Josh, to feel hopeless in the wake of all these mass shootings. But security experts say that there are specific ways that the public can help stop the violence. So, what are they saying?

CAMPBELL: Yes. You need to be aware. You need to be on the lookout for characteristics that include someone who is becoming increasingly detached, people obviously who are discussing self-harm. If you have someone that has those traits and also gathering firearms, that's obviously a concern.

But the good news, if there is any good news in any of this, is investigators tell us that it doesn't take a trained investigator to try to identify some of these areas of concern. I spoke with my former FBI colleague, Kate Schweit. She created the FBI's active shooter program in the wake of Sandy Hook. And she said that their research shows that so often these traits are on full display for people who are immediately surrounding mass shooters. Take a listen.

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KATHERINE SCHWEIT, RETIRED FBI AGENT AND ACTIVE SHOOTER TRAINING EXPERT: If it's a schoolmate, 90-some percent of the time it's one of their classmates. 70 percent to 80 percent of the time, it's one of the teachers or faculty members. If it's an individual who is not in school, then we're looking for somebody who is their partner, their spouse, their workmate.

It is really hard sometimes to get people over the hump of I don't want to get involved. But I would say think about this, you're not only potentially saving somebody who you know because you're around them from committing suicide and killing other people, but you may be saving your own life and the lives of your own family members.

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CAMPBELL: And experts tell us that, look, they know that there's a stigma out there. People don't want to report on a family member. They might think that that it is a stretch or they don't want to get people in trouble. But we're in this era now with all of this gun violence, this epidemic gun violence that law enforcement researchers say it's pastime that people remain concerned about that. You have to put those concerns aside and try to seek help for people who might be in these situations. And, finally, it's important to note that you can report information anonymously. You can go to tips.fbi.gov if you have concerns. Again, you have to report it. We have to get past this stigma. Because in so many of these incidents, Don, people who were in the shooter's orbit saw something, they just didn't report.

LEMON: Tips.fbi.gov, great information. Thank you, Josh.

CAMPBELL: You bet.

COLLINS: Also this morning, on the international front, new western intelligence shows that Russia is starting to gather aircraft near its border with Ukraine.

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This is an apparent attempt to bolster the trouble that it is having with the land defensive. Now, they're trying to bolster with jets, with helicopters, all of this according to a new reporting from the Financial Times. All of this is also happening as the defense secretary, Lloyd Austin, says Ukraine is expected to conduct an offensive against Russia in the coming months.

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LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: And so we believe that there will be a window of opportunity for them to exercise initiative and then change or continue to create the right conditions on the battlefield there.

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COLLINS: Big questions about those conditions. CNN's Fred Pleitgen reporter is at Devin (ph) Belarusian border crossing. Fred, as you're hearing these warnings from the U.S., from other western allies, what were you seeing on the actual ground?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Kaitlan. Well, I can tell you, it certainly seems as though Ukrainians are extremely concerned that there might be another invasion coming also from the territory of Belarus obviously involving Russian troops.

I want to show you what's going on here, because we are in a pretty remarkable place. We're actually right on the border between Belarus and Ukraine. You can see here this is barb wire fence. This was put up by the Belarusians. But only a couple yards down the road over there, that is already Ukrainian territory.

And as you guys can see, it's heavily fortified. There are several layers of barbed wire. There are also some things that were put up, earth mounds to essentially stop anyone from going through there. That border crossing on the Ukrainian side is absolutely barricaded from what we can see.

Now, we know that from the Belarusian side, this border crossing is actually still functioning. On the Ukrainian side, all the border crossings to Belarus have been closed because the Ukrainians have that fear that they could be attacked from the territory of Belarus.

One thing that is also going on here that I just want to point out, Kaitlan, is that there is actually some international trolling also going on here. If our camera operator, our photojournalist, Claude (ph), you can and zoom in on that, you'll see there's a Ukrainian flag there. But the other flag next to that is actually the opposition flag of the Belarusian opposition. And I can tell one thing. The Belarusian authorities are not happy about that. In fact, the border guys that were around here with, they have called that a provocation by the Ukrainians.

Now, we do have to point out we're on an organized press tour by the Belarusian government. So, we're a bit restricted in our movement here in the country and the northwestern border crossing, one of the northwestern border crossings. And you'd probably find more Russian forces, for instance, in the northeast.

But nevertheless, you can absolutely see the tension here between Belarus and Ukraine, as the Ukrainians obviously bracing for a possible another offensive by the Russians and fearing that there could be elements launched from this country here as well, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Yes. And given the role Belarus played in the initial invasion almost a year ago, you can see why they feel that way. Fred Pleitgen, fascinating report, thank you.

And just moments, we're going to follow up with Dr. Sanjay Gupta. He is in Turkey getting an inside look at one of the top trauma hospitals following the earthquake there. You're going to want to see that.

LEMON: And spying in the air and possibly on your phones. We're going to speak to Senator Angus King and Congressman Mike Gallagher about concerns about China and cybersecurity. There they are. We'll see them on the other side.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see something I can't tell if it's metallic or what, and there's -- I can see like lines coming down below, but you can't see anything below it. It's so slow and so small you can't see it because it's so close.

It's just some kind of dark object. You can see some strings or something hanging down below it. I can't tell if it's holding anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Those are F-16 pilots trying but kind of struggling to describe a mystery object that was in the sky over Lake Huron. Pilots shot down the object after missing on the first shot on Sunday. Given all of this and what we've seen in recent, the Senate got a classified briefing on those objects yesterday. The House had an unclassified phone call about it because they're out of session. All of this is coming amid a bipartisan effort to counter China on several fronts.

So, joining us now are two lawmakers from different sides of the aisle but both at the forefront of this issue, Independent Senator Angus King of Maine, he serves on the intelligence committee and caucuses with the Democrats, and Republican Congressman Mike Gallagher of the House Intelligence Committee and Select Committee On Strategic Competition between the United States and China, so the two perfect guests here to describe this.

And given the briefings that each of you received yesterday, I think our first question is it clear to you what these objects were that have been shot down, the three of them, and that the U.S. will actually be able to recover them?

SEN. ANGUS KING (I-ME): Well, I think, Kaitlan, the answer is no, it's not clear what these objects were. We're very clear on the balloon issue, on the Chinese balloon, where it came from, and we're getting more and more clarity on what its mission was as the debris is recovered off of South Carolina. But these other three objects, we still don't know. They were much smaller. We don't know who sponsored them, what their mission was. And I can't reveal any classified information but, basically, I can tell you that we're still searching for the debris and we'll know much more when we find it.

LEMON: So, Kaitlan mentioned in the introduction that the senators got a briefing yesterday. I just want to play a little bit of what they said coming out of that briefing and then get you guys to respond. Here it is.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a really uninformative briefing. We learned very, very little.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): If you are confused, you understand the situation perfectly.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): We're still trying to figure out exactly what some of these things were. And they were not in the category of the balloon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, here's what I found interesting, Representative Gallagher, is that those gentlemen, they didn't say it there, but Senator Kennedy from Louisiana, from my home state, said if you were under the impression that things were just falling out of the sky, let me just (INAUDIBLE) you of that, that is not happening here. Even Lindsey Graham is saying, you know, let's calm down a little bit.

[07:25:00] I was surprised because they had been so critical of the administration. What do you make of their reaction and do you feel the same way?

REP. MIKE GALLAGHER (R-MI): Well, for years now, we had a problem with unidentified aerial phenomena, so-called UAPs fouling our ranges, things showing up in our training ranges and us not knowing what they are. We've actually tried to get the administration and the previous administration as well to take this more seriously. We set up a special office to adjudicate these issues. But until now, until it bursts into public view, it really didn't get the attention it deserved. And which is why we need to conduct serious oversight of this.

The second thing I would say is there are times when national security demands secrecy. I get it. I am an intel officer by trade. I think now is a time that demands complete transparency. Americans are unnerved. They're concerned about the idea that we don't have complete control over what is happening in our airspace. So, I would urge the administration to just err on the side of transparency, put it all out there in the open for people to see, including the first incident. Put the Chinese spy balloon, once we analyze it, out there so we understand exactly what is happening in our area.

LEMON: You don't feel that they're being as transparent as they can be?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think right now, as Senator King alluded to, there is a lot of unanswered questions with the incidents two, three, and four. That I don't fault them because there is an ongoing recovery effort, and until we recover it and analyze it, we won't know the origin of that. But I really think now we just need to be open and honest. I have been disappointed with some of the details in the briefings. I'm hoping we get more details going forward. This is an area where we have bipartisan concerns and I think we can resolve it in a bipartisan fashion.

COLLINS: Senator, do you agree with that? Do you think they should be more public about, you know, what they do know and don't know?

KING: Yes, absolutely. It's the instinct of the intelligence community to hold information tight even if it isn't necessary. The real reason for keeping things classified is not revealing sources and methods. How did we learn things? We don't want to signal that to our adversaries. But in this case, I agree with Mike that the more transparency, the better, because, as he said, people are sort of unnerved by this.

But in terms of the briefing yesterday, they told us what they know. It wasn't that they were holding anything back, at least as far as I could tell, and I know a lot of those individuals. Right now, they're just -- we are just not going to know anything for probably a week as they try to gather whatever remains they can find and these objects that they shot down.

LEMON: So, let me ask you then, because this is a matter of obviously national security but it is also, you know, foreign affairs, and the concern about China here. Because in an editorial on Chinese state media, China has said that shooting down the balloon showed how, and I quote, immature and irresponsible, indeed hysterical the United States has been in dealing with the case. Do you think shooting down an unknown aerial object in the sky makes the U.S. look weak? And is that a problem with a foreign adversary like China that people may -- they may see this as an aggressive action? Go ahead, Mike. I see you are -- Representative, I see you shaking your head there.

GALLAGHER: Not at all. I mean, this is -- Chinese state media would still have you believe that this is a civilian weather balloon. And the idea that we are the ones who are provoking, when they're the ones who are violating our airspace, violating international law, I think, is laughable. What makes us look weak is if we do nothing in response to this violation of our sovereignty.

And I would say Senator Angus King and I worked very closely together on a cyber commission for two years where we discovered that the Chinese are violating our sovereignty every single day and crossing our border every single second in cyberspace. And there is much more we need to do to protect our domestic infrastructure here. But to do nothing and allow this aggression to continue, I think, would invite further aggression.

COLLINS: And, Senator, one thing the two of you are working on is you're saying people are so worried about balloons and objects that are being shot out of the sky, meanwhile every day on their phones, you know, maybe all the parents watching, their kids have TikTok. And you're saying that those surveillance efforts, you said, basically Americans are voluntarily giving up their browsing and viewing habits to the Chinese government.

KING: Well, it's important, Kaitlan, to start with an understanding that, in China, according to their law, any private company has to give up information or data that is in its possession when requested by the government. So, in effect, that makes every private company, whether it's TikTok or anything else, Huawei, an agent of the Chinese government. And that's really what the issue is here.

And by the way, we can't say definitively that they're using TikTok in this way but the risk is very great, because the use of this app, they can essentially know where people are going, what they're looking at, what they're doing. They can also use it for disinformation. They can use it in subtle ways with their algorithm to steer our kids in certain directions or our people that are using TikTok.

[07:30:07]