Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Ohio Residents Demand Answers on Chemical Leak from Train; Today, Part of George Special Grand Jury Report to be Released; Police Searching for Michigan State Gunman's Motive. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired February 16, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm scared for my family. I'm scared for my town. I grew up here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We passed all of the creeks and there's crew after crew with white hoses and black hoses all through the creeks. They're not telling us why. And this is daily. I'm driving my children to school past all of this and they're asking me questions that I don't have answers to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: And they need the answers. So many, many questions. Good morning, everyone. Anger, fear, and many questions in East Palestine, Ohio, nearly two weeks after a train packed with hazardous chemicals derailed. We're going to do a deep dive into the company behind the spill and one of the dangerous chemical that was onboard there, vinyl chloride. How long will it be a threat? And is it putting residents at risk of cancer.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, did former President Trump break the law when he tried to overturn the election results in Georgia? We're going to find out new details today at any moment when the judge releases part of the grand jury's report.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Also the gunman who killed students at Michigan State University had a note in his pocket. Was he planning to attack more schools?

LEMON: We're going to begin, though, in East Palestine, Ohio, where families are demanding to know if it is even safe to be in their own homes anymore. It has been nearly two weeks since the train loaded with toxic chemicals derailed and burst into a raging inferno. Residents say that the air smells like burning plastic and they don't know if it is safe to drink the water.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody that came here expects a hell of a lot more than what we're getting right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Very heated town hall meeting last night, people demanding more information from officials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't know what we're facing. We find it very hard to believe that there is no particulate matter in the air that can cause us harm after practically an atom bomb was released over our small community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, here's what we do know right now. The head of the EPA is going to East Palestine today and is set to hold a news conference. When that train derailed, emergency crews released and burned off loads of chemicals to prevent a catastrophic explosion. But it has created this gigantic -- it created this gigantic plume of smoke over the town. There have been reports of pets getting sick and fish turning up dead in local creeks.

The train company, Norfolk Southern, was a no show at last night's meeting. In a statement, this is what they said. We know that many are rightfully angry and frustrated right now. We have become increasingly concerned about the growing physical threat to our employees. Our people will remain in East Palestine, respond to this situation and meet with residents. We're not going anywhere.

Well, people who live in the area are concerned not only about their health right now but years from now, and they should be.

Our Bill Weir is to explain what these spilled chemicals do. Bill, good morning to you. They really want to know what is going on, who is responsible and what effects it's going to have on their lives and their health. What can you tell us.

BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the immediate disruption is so painful to see. These people are running out of money as they stay in Airbnbs. There's so much fear and uncertainty, as you see there. But if you think they're angry now, there will only be more anger when they have the time and the wherewithal to look in the company behind this crash.

Norfolk Southern is a $55 billion rail company, 12, almost $13 billion in operating revenues last year. And they have a really checkered past. This is in 2005. 14 cars derailed in Graniteville, North Carolina, there. Nine people died. 851 people were treated. But in the end, they settled for an EPA lawsuit settlement of $4 million in fines mainly because they violated Clean Water Act laws and killed a bunch of fish.

They probably settled with a lot of companies but they've been doing sort of cost benefit analysis in the rail companies for a long time. And the thing that is most fascinating to me are the brakes on the train. You've got to understand in recent years Norfolk Southern in particular adopted a new kind business model, which meant a lot longer trains, two miles long, a lot fewer people. They laid off tens of thousands in the industry. That train was almost two miles long and we think had conventional air brakes which brakes from the front to the back.

[07:05:02]

So, it can take two minutes before the back cars know to stop and they become a slinky from hell and slamming into the cars that have stopped in front.

For years now since the early 2000s, there have been electronically controlled pneumatic brakes. When Norfolk Southern first tried these because they brake every car all at once, they raved about it. They actually appealed to the transportation officials and says you shouldn't have to inspect trains with ECP brakes. They're so effective.

But then when President Obama tried to make them mandatory after a bunch of derailments in 2014, said let's just put them on the cars that have explosive carcinogens, for example, the industry, the railroads, the chemical companies, the lobbyists fought it hard. They gutted it. The final version was that longer, high-hazard flammable trains would need brakes by 2023, ironically. But in 2018, the Trump administration, Elaine Chao was the transportation secretary, rolled it back entirely.

This will be the sort of topic, I'm sure, of the class action lawsuits that are now being filed. The response from Norfolk Southern so far, $1 million charitable fund, $1.2 million financial aid to families, 100-plus air purifiers and air monitoring services and tests.

HARLOW: What do you think, Bill? I mean, you just outlined what seemed to be failures on so many levels, really successful lobbying efforts, right, and this decision by the Trump administration to essentially reverse what the Obama administration had wanted. What can the Biden administration do unilaterally now without an act of Congress?

WEIR: That's a good question. Pete Buttigieg was tweeted about the legal restraints of what they can do right now as a result of the Trump administration rolling that back. There would probably be a renewed call for this. Senator John Thune led the charge from Republican senators to kind of gut this rule and take it away. It was considered a big victory for the industry. Maybe the outrage over this will force a re-examination of that.

At least to label these really has it estranged (ph), which are rolling through suburbs everywhere all the time. Trains can -- trucks can reroute around hazardous materials around city centers. Trains are stuck to the tracks. And, really, it's the business model. It incentivizes danger in exchange for profits.

HARLOW: Yes, wow. COLLINS: Bill, can you talk to us exactly about what chemicals were in this train? Because I think that is what everyone is talking about when we are talking about the dead fish and the symptoms and what Don said earlier, the air smelling like nail polish remover.

WEIR: Yes. You heard it described as an overchlorinated pool, burning plastic. The main chemical in there is poly vinyl chloride, PVC. It is the stuff that is in the white pipes that you see or just ubiquitous in American construction. The hidden cost of that is when it breaks down. It breaks down into a chemical that is actually used as a weapon in World War I. It creates a horrible respiratory and skin disruption there. Long-term, it causes cancer.

Some of these other ones are irritants as well. But they think because the fish kill was immediate and hasn't continued, that's been diluted. The stuff at least in the water has been diluted. And the wells in that area are deep enough that it won't be a long-term threat to drinking water. But what's in the soil? How that leeches into the air? All of that remains to be seen.

LEMON: Bill Weir, thank you, sir.

COLLINS: All right. Now, we move to a CNN exclusive this morning. We have now learned from a source telling me that Donald Trump's former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, has been subpoenaed in the special counsel's investigation into January 6 and the role that Trump played that day. I'm told that the special counsel, Jack Smith, is seeking both testimony and documents from Meadows. He got the subpoena back in January.

This is the latest aggressive and significant move that we have seen from Smith. It matters because Meadows, as you know, has firsthand knowledge of Trump's actions on several fronts. He was in and out of the Oval Office that day. He was on that infamous phone call that happened in December between Trump and the Georgia secretary of state, Brad Raffenspgerger, where Trump was pleading with him find him more votes. Meadows was also in that bananas December 2020 White House meeting about election fraud claims. He also visited a Georgia audit site as they were counting and recounting votes. He sent emails to Justice Department officials about unsubstantiated fraud claims.

His attorney and the Justice Department did not comment to CNN when we asked. It's unclear how he's going to respond to the subpoena. It will likely set up a clash, though, over executive privilege given he was one of Trump's most senior aides. Meadows got his subpoena before Mike Pence got his. The former vice president, though, last night said he is going to fight that one.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I'm going to fight the Biden DOJ's subpoena for me to appear before the grand jury because I believe it's unconstitutional and it's unprecedented.

I'm aware that President Trump is going to bring a claim of executive privilege. And that will be his claim to make. [07:10:00]

That's his fight. My fight is on the principle of separation of powers and the Constitution of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: You'll notice Pence is making that argument in Iowa. He is likely to be a 2024 presidential candidate. All of this is coming as we're learning that Jack Smith, that special counsel, is locked in at least eight secret battles tied to investigations into 2020 election and Trump's handling of classified documents. Most of the disputes are under seal and outcomes, though, could have far reaching implications for reaching implications for Trump.

On top of all of that also this morning, the part of the Georgia's special grand jury report on Trump's attempt to overturn election results in that state is going to be released. The recommendations on criminal charges, though, are going to still be kept secret.

CNN's Sara Murray joins us now. Sara, what are we going to learn from what they will reveal today?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Kaitlan, As you said, a lot is going to stay under wraps. But today we are going to get the special grand jury's introduction to their report, the conclusion of their report as well as a section that dug into the grand jury's concerns that's some of the witnesses who appeared, who testified before the grand jury may have actually lied in their testimony.

Now, look, the grand jury has been digging into efforts by Donald Trump and his allies to overturn the 2020 election for months and months, and this investigation all got started back in January of 2021 when Trump called Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. Take a listen to part of that phone call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: So, what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes.

Fellows, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break. You know, we have that in spades already.

All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.

The people of Georgia are angry. The people of the country are wrong there is nothing wrong with saying that you've recalculated out.

SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER (R-GA): But, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MURRAY: So, that is the call that set this all into motion. And as you just saw it before, look, this is a grand jury that has heard from 75 witnesses, heard from people, from Senator Lindsey Graham to Trump's former attorney, Rudy Giuliani, to many, many others.

So, we're going to get sort of a sense of the tenor of what the grand jury came away with this but we are not going to get their specific recommendations on whether anyone should face charges. If there are names in any of these sections, those are likely to be redacted today. The judge who is overseeing this special grand jury made pretty clear that he doesn't think it's fair at this point to name people publicly when no one has faced charges yet. Kaitlan?

COLLINS: And we also know Georgia Governor Brian Kemp spoke with them as well. Sara Murray, we will wait for that report. Thank you.

And later this hour, we're going to talk about all of this, what Sara just laid out there, with the former U.S. attorney from Georgia's Middle District, Michael Moore. So, be sure to watch that.

HARLOW: So, this morning, one person is dead, three others are injured in a mass shooting, this one last night at a mall in El Paso, Texas.

That is security camera footage, people running for their lives and panic as they heard gun shots. An off duty officer was working security and was on the scene within minutes and took one suspect into custody. A second suspect was arrested later. Police have not revealed a motive for that shooting. The mall is next to that Walmart, remember, just a few years ago in El Paso, where 23 people were shot and killed. That was in 2019.

And let me take you to Michigan, where there was a very emotional vigil last night at Michigan State University two days after the deadly mass shooting there. Students, staff and the East Lansing community gathered to mourn three young lives taken. Governor Gretchen Whitmer spoke about the painful loss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): Our Spartan community is reeling this week and our lives and our hearts break for those lives that were shattered by gun violence. We mourn Arielle and Al, as she was known to her loved ones, and Brian, who were taken from us far too soon. We think about their families, recalling their last visit home. We hurt for their friends who are remembering their last conversation or maybe re-reading text messages.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So, we've also, this morning, learned some new details about the gunman and some insight into a possible motive. Police say he had a two page note in his pocket that threatened shootings at other places in Michigan.

Joining us now with his reporting is CNN Chief Law Enforcement and Intelligence Analyst John Miller. John, good morning to you. Incredibly distressing to hear that he had this pretty long list of other places, Michigan, New Jersey. What did the note detail?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, he starts off -- and it's interesting. The note is dated Sunday, February 12th, the day before the actual shooting. But it begins with an introduction. Hi. My name is Anthony McCrae.

[07:15:00]

He announces that he is the leader of a group of 20 shooters and he says, quote, I will be shooting up MSU.

HARLOW: 20 shooters?

MILLER: Right.

HARLOW: Does he name them?

MILLER: There are no 20 shooters but he does list these locations. And there's a fast food restaurant, there's an employment agency, there's a warehouse, there's a church, there are a dozen of them. But they're fairly random in that there are not other colleges, they're not related to each other, and two schools in New Jersey near where he grew up.

HARLOW: Right. Wow.

LEMON: So, they believe it was just him, even though he mentioned these 20 people, they don't think there are any other accomplices that were --

MILLER: No, but interesting question, because they have an obligation that is called duty to warn. If you're in a threat letter, you know, they have to come and tell you. So, they have to go to these dozen places in New Jersey and Colorado Springs, but mostly all over Lansing. He says, you know, this team is going to finish off Lansing.

So, they visited these places to say you're in this threat letter. We don't believe there is a threat. We don't believe there are 20 people. But do you know this guy? What is your connection to Anthony McRae? Did he work here? Did he apply for a job here? Was he let go from a job here? Especially since one of them is an employment agency, asking them to go back through their records.

We had talked here the other day about the offender characteristics of the mass shooter, the injustice collector who collects these slights and lets them grow and marinade until they strike at these targets, which are basically unexplained. His letter says, you know, they hated me. They hated me. They hated me. He said they hurt me. I am told there are pictures of, you know, his crying face that are sketched in different places. So, somewhere he feels, you know, wounded by a number of these locations and they're digging back to try and to figure out what and why.

LEMON: John Miller, thanks. We appreciate it. COLLINS: Also this morning, investigators are now looking at another close call on an airport runway. All of this has happened in less than a month, if you can believe that. This time, it was January 23rd in Honolulu. A United Airlines wide body jet and a smaller plane almost collided.

Lawmakers have been grilling the FAA chief, the acting chief, we should note, because there is no permanent one, on Wednesday. That comes after last month's computer outage that caused that nationwide halt of all flights.

CNN's Gabe Cohen is following all this closely from Washington. Gabe, let's just start with this third near collision because it just seems like these are happening more and more frequently these days. What do we know about what happened in Honolulu?

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Kaitlan, to be clear this is the third close call that we know of. There may be others. That is something the FAA is looking into.

Now, this new incursion happened on January 23rd in Honolulu, and I want to walk you through how it played out. So, flight data shows a UNITED 777 land just ahead of a small cargo plane landing on the next runway over, and that United Flight then turns and that is when the FAA tells us the plane crossed that next runway despite being told to wait by air traffic control just ahead of where that cargo plane was landing.

Now, the FAA says the two aircraft were a little more than 1,100 feet apart, so not nearly as close to colliding as in those other two incidents at JFK and Austin, and neither plane here had to actually abort takeoff or landing, which they did in those other cases. But, look, this is just adding to the list of alarming aviation incidents. And it is something that lawmakers really pushed the acting head of the FAA to answer for during that Senate committee hearing yesterday. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILLY NOLEN, ACTING FAA ADMINISTRATOR: Overall, I have a good sense about where we are. Can I say to the American public that we're safe? The answer is that we are. If the question can we be better? The answer is, absolutely, and that's the piece we're working on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: And that's why Billy Nolen, who you just heard from, has announced a sweeping safety review of the FAA and that will include a couple pieces. There will be a summit next month with industry partners and they'll discuss ways to make the aviation industry a just little bit safer. And they're going to look through flight data to see if there are trends here, if there are more incidents happening than we realize, something that I think everyone here is really concerned about. Kaitlan?

COLLINS: Yes, absolutely see why there is such concern for that. Gabe Cohen, thank you for following that for us.

Also this morning, new footage showing Alex Murdaugh being asked directly if he had killed his wife and son. We'll tell you what he said. Also this --

HARLOW: Tensions flaring as a gunman who went on a racially motivated massacre at a grocery store in buffalo was sentenced.

[07:20:03]

What he, more importantly the victims' families had to say.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back. The double murder trial of Alex Murdaugh resumes today after a really dramatic day in court. The jury watched a police interview asking Murdaugh directly if he killed his wife and son. The chief forensics investigator took the stand, is going to be back on the stand today to testify about what he found on the phone of Murdaugh's wife and son.

Our Randi Kaye joins us live again this morning in Walterboro, South Carolina. Good morning. So, I think, Randi, the question is, does this interview of Murdaugh undermine his alibi during the time of the murders?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy. It raises a lot of questions about his alibi on the night of the murders. This was his third interview this lead investigator. It took place in August of 2021, just a couple months after the murders. And from the start, you can tell he is already a suspect. Here's a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SPECIAL AGENT DAVID OWEN, SLED: Did you kill Maggie?

ALEX MURDAUGH, DOUBLE MURDER SUSPECT: No.

[07:25:00]

OWEN: Did you kill Paul?

MURDAUGH: No, I did not kill Paul.

KAYE (voice over): This is the first time we hear Lead Investigator David Owen ask Alex Murdaugh directly if he killed his wife, Maggie Murdaugh, and their son, Paul.

OWEN: Do you know who did it?

MURDAUGH: No, sir, I do not know who did?

KAYE: Special Agent Owen had a lot more questions for Murdaugh, too, including why he was wearing something different after the murders that he was earlier in the night on this Snapchat video pulled from his son's phone. OWEN: What point and why did you change clothes?

MURDAUGH: I'm not sure. I guess I changed when I got back to the house.

KAYE: The prosecution has suggested that he showered and changed his clothes following the murders. The defense pushed back on that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you expect to find some trace evidence of blood somewhere in the house?

OWEN: There was no trace evidence of blood found in the house, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

KAYE: Alex Murdaugh has told investigators several times that on the night of the murders, he had dinner with his family then took a nap and later drove to his mother's house.

OWEN: How long would you say you were at your moms that night?

MURDAUGH: 45 minutes, an hour.

KAYE: 45 minutes to an hour? Remember, his mother's caretaker testified Murdaugh came by the house for just 15 to 20 minutes that night.

At least four times during this interview, Owen asked Murdaugh if he was at the kennels where the murders took place earlier that night, before he says he found his family dead. Each time, Murdaugh denied being there.

OWEN: And you didn't go back down there after dinner until you returned from visiting your mother?

MURDAUGH: Yes, sir.

KAYE: Owen also asked Murdaugh if it was his voice on a video investigators extracted from Paul Murdaugh's phone. It had been recorded at the murder scene at 8:44 P.M., just a few minutes before Paul and Maggie were killed.

OWEN: That was prior to (INAUDIBLE)?

MURDAUGH: No, sir, not if my times are right.

KAYE: At least eight witnesses have testified that it is Alex Murdaugh's voice on that recording. Murdaugh also had some questions for Owen during the interview.

MURDAUGH: Can you tell me for sure that neither one of them suffered after they were shot first? Is this one person, two persons, three persons?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that the first time he's ever asked you that?

OWEN: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ever?

OWEN: That I recall, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the whole investigation at this point?

OWEN: Yes, sir.

KAYE: And just before the interview ended, Owen made it clear to Murdaugh that investigators are focused on him and only him.

MURDAUGH: Do you think I killed Maggie?

OWEN: I have to go where the evidence and facts take me.

MURDAUGH: And do you think I killed Paul?

OWEN: I have to go where the evidence and facts take me. And I don't have anything that points to anybody else at this time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAYE (on camera): And you could see there how that investigator was trying to nail down a timeline and some of those inconsistencies. And, Poppy, one other thing worth noting, the investigator did inform Alex Murdaugh for the first time in that interview that a family firearm was used in the murders. And Alex Murdaugh had no reaction. He didn't ask how they knew that or where that weapon was. Poppy?

HARLOW: Wow, okay. Randi, thank you for the reporting this morning from South Carolina. Don?

LEMON: So, the gunman in the racist mass shooting at a Buffalo supermarket will serve multiple life sentences without parole. At the sentencing, the judge told him he deserve no mercy and will never see the light of day as a free man again.

The gunman planned the May 14th attack for months. His online posts were full of white supremacist conspiracy theories and anti-Semitic rants. He then traveled about 200 miles from his home in Conklin, New York, to target the predominantly black neighborhood. Before he learned of his punishment, the victims' families delivered tearful and angry testimonials, one man even lunged at him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We loved our kids. We never go into neighborhoods and take people out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: You can understand why they are so angry. 13 people were shot in the attack. Ten people died, all of them black.

KAYE: All right. Also this morning, fresh off a presidential announcement that happened in South Carolina yesterday, Nikki Haley said that she believes politicians who were 75 and above should take a mental competency test. President Biden is 80. Her former boss, President Donald Trump, is 76. Was that a dig at both of them? We're going to talk about it next.

[07:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)