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Former President Trump's Attorney Must Testify without Attorney-Client Privilege in Special Counsel Probe into Top Secret Documents Found at Mar-a-Lago; Manhattan District Attorney Possibly Delaying Grand Jury Vote on Indictment of Former President Trump in Connection to Hush Money Payment to Stormy Daniels; TikTok CEO to Testify to Congress about Protection of User Data. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired March 23, 2023 - 08:00   ET



POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: So you lose that if you lose those banks?

KEVIN O'LEARY, O'LEARY VENTURES CHAIRMAN: You don't need all of them anymore is my point, because 99 percent of transactions in banking, all banking, whether it be personal or corporate, are done online. You are agnostic to wear the bank is when you go online.

Now, maybe you love the kumbaya aspect of feeling great about having a regional bank branch somewhere. No one in their 20s ever goes to --

HARLOW: I just don't think that's fair to say kumbaya. I think you have access to capital in ways that most normal Americans don't, Kevin.

O'LEARY: Here's the issue that we really are discussing. Do you think it's a good idea to guarantee every single account regardless of the amount everywhere all of the time? More than half the country doesn't agree with that. They're just not there. They don't want the big bailout anymore.

So if you want to have little banks with $250,000 max in them, they'll never make money. And it's going to get a lot worse because these regulations are going to be increased after what happened in Silicon Valley Bank are going to make most of these regionals unprofitable. Now, do you want to prop them up with government money?

HARLOW: That's fair.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: I get what both of you -- you both have great points. You all have great points. But we live in such a shared economy. Now, I see what you're saying. And quite honestly for people who are if you're walking in off the street, would you in a bank that is failing or collapsing right now, would you go and invest and put your money in there? I'm with you. I don't think people are going to do that. But I'm not saying they shouldn't. But I think the conventional or common wisdom --

O'LEARY: If you didn't have an account at First Republic, would you walk in there now -- LEMON: That's what I'm saying.

O'LEARY: Zero probability. It's like Credit Suisse. It's a zombie bank, the brand is tainted. If it dies, who cares?

HARLOW: And why is -- all right, we've got to leave it there. But why are a lot of big banks and smart bankers jumping in to help them?

O'LEARY: I don't agree with that. That's my money --

LEMON: To be continued. We've got to start the topic. Thank you, Kevin. Appreciate it.

HARLOW: Thank you, Kevin. We love having you.

CNN THIS MORNING continues right now.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's the address in Staten Island


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we're stuck in the sewers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once you went down, where's the sewer, -- left, right straight -- where was it? I need you to guide me.



KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. That audio that you heard there were children recorded on 911. They were begging for help because they became lost in a sewer in New York City. We're going to have more on that dramatic rescue coming up.

HARLOW: But first, a big legal blow for Donald Trump, his own attorney ordered to testify about top secret documents found at Mar-a- Lago. And here in New York the grand jury is getting ready to reconvene and weigh charges against Trump in the Stormy Daniels hush money case.

LEMON: As you know, things change with these cases, the Donald Trump cases, minute by minute, so stay tuned. Plus, we have this. There's TikTok CEO, you see him there on the screen. He's gearing up to testify on Capitol Hill as the White House cracks down on the Chinese owned app.

COLLINS: OK, but we're going to get started with major developments in two very different investigations of former President Trump. His own defense attorney has now been ordered to testify tomorrow in the special counsel's probe of classified documents that were taken to Mar-a-Lago. This is a legal blow to Trump. They had tried to fight this. They were unsuccessful. And the attorney, Evan Corcoran, could potentially be a key witness. We still don't know what actually he could say to prosecutors, these investigators, or what they're going to ask him.

He is the one, as you remember, that drafted the statement back over the summer that said a diligent search had been conducted at Mar-a- Lago when it came to the classified material that was signed by another attorney. It obviously turned out not to be true, as we saw from the FBI search that was executed at Mar-a-Lago just weeks later when a trove of sensitive documents were found as part of that search warrant.

Now, moving on to the other investigation. This is the one that's happening here in New York. This is the one about Stormy Daniels. The grand jury is set to reconvene in the hush money case there, and, in a surprise move, the Manhattan district attorney told them to stay home yesterday. They did not meet.

Our CNN senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid has been very busy and is tracking all of this. Let's start with the first one when it comes to Trump's defense attorney who is now going to testify without being able to say, oh, I can't answer that because of attorney-client privilege.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: This decision came so fast. All right, let's just start with that. This was a rocket docket. This really gives some momentum to the special counsel as it tries to get evidence that could really make or break the case against former President Trump, because they have successfully convinced the judge that they have evidence that these conversations between former President Trump and his attorney, Evan Corcoran, may have been part of a crime. So now they're able to pierce attorney-client privilege.

And not only are they going to get testimony, they're also getting documents. This could be really critical evidence, because these are handwritten notes that Evan Corcoran was taking at the time all of this was happening. This is rare. This is extraordinary. Of course, Corcoran, as you noted, he's already been before the grand jury once, and at this point it's unclear what new information they're going to get from him. But the fact that all this is happening with this kind of speed, it is extraordinary.


LEMON: We're lucky to have you here, and both of you here, because you've been doing extensive reporting on this, but I noticed that the energy with which you say this is rare, explain that, because I don't think it can be overexplained to the viewer. This is extremely rare that this is happening.

REID: Yes, attorney-client privilege, it's so sacred in the judicial system. You have the right to discuss your case with your attorney and know that those conversations are going to be protected. They're not subsequently going to be used against you. But there are some exceptions, and one is the crime fraud exception. So here, prosecutors have convinced a judge that they have enough evidence that this advice, these conversations may have been part of a crime. So that's why they're able to get around that here. But look, the former president clearly has a lot of legal problems, but this is arguably the biggest problem he has right now.

COLLINS: But the most imminent maybe is what's happening here in New York because the grand jury, this is totally separate. This is the Stormy Daniels -- we want like a banner to be like this is which one we're talking about.

LEMON: It's another one, the other one that's happening here in New York.

COLLINS: It's important to be to be clear, and this is when the grand jury is going to reconvene today. They didn't meet yesterday. We don't really know why. What's the significance of them meeting today?

REID: You're absolutely right that this is the most imminent legal threat, though I think we can all agree it's not the most consequential when we talk about the facts of the case, right. This is about hush money payments. And what's so interesting this week is prosecutors have had to take up cause after what happened Monday. Remember, attorney Robert Costello went before the grand jury at the request of Trump lawyers and attacked the credibility of Michael Cohen. He's the key witness in this case.

Whatever happened during his testimony forced prosecutors to take a pause, recalibrate. We've learned now they're wondering whether they have to call Michael Cohen back.

LEMON: I was just going to ask you, do we know if he's going back?

REID: So I will say that his attorney is telling us that he's not coming back today, but we haven't confirmed that with other sources. But we're certainly trying to figure out if it's him, because we've also learned they may call another witness to try to button up their case before moving on to vote on a possible indictment.

So I know people keep asking me, is this vote going to happen? When is it going to happen. At this point we don't know what they're up to today, but we do know there contemplating calling back additional witnesses.

LEMON: You guys have had great reporting, both of you, and the other Katelyn and everyone --

REID: It takes a village.

COLLINS: Good effort on this. Paula Reid, thank you.

HARLOW: Totally agree with that. It's been amazing, and we'll see what happens in the next 24 hours.

Meantime, happening today on Capitol Hill, TikTok CEO Shou Chew will be on the Hill. He'll testify before Congress. This is his first public testimony as the CEO of the company. U.S. officials are threatening new legislation on this app, potentially a ban of the app in the United States. Two plans to reassure the public that TikTok is not a national security threat. He also will highlight that more than 150 million Americans use it every month.

Let's walk through these numbers with CNN's senior data reporter Harry Enten. I saw you dancing just there.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: I like that music a little bit.

HARLOW: What do we need to know ahead of the hearing?

ENTEN: Yes, look, TikTok is becoming so much more popular in the United States. I think that's the number one thing to take away. So U.S. adults use TikTok. Pew Research Center pulled it from 2019 to 2022, look at this, three percent, 12 percent in 2020, 21 percent, 30 percent 2022. And then this number, 38 percent in a new "Washington Post" poll that came out yesterday out yesterday of U.S. adults say they used TikTok.

HARLOW: Adults.

ENTEN: Adults.

HARLOW: I think it's parents trying to be cool with their kids.

ENTEN: Maybe so, that may be so. And if you put it in the context to the other apps. Look it's more popular than LinkedIn. It's more popular than Twitter, which is my favorite app to use. It's not quite up to Instagram or Facebook with 70 percent, but still, 38 percent puts it right in the middle of the pack.

But as you pointed out, Poppy, it's U.S. teenagers. Take a look here. Look how many teenagers use TikTok, 67 percent. In 2014 they didn't poll TikTok. It wasn't a thing yet. It is the number one social media app for teenagers, well ahead of Facebook at 32 percent, and it's right above Snapchat and Instagram, and they incline is huge.

HARLOW: This is what worries me, because TikTok put in a few weeks ago that 60-minute time limit for younger users, but they could just sign in their password or their parents can override it. But the Chinese version of it has a 40 minute limit for young kids, and you cannot get back on for a day.

ENTEN: I mean, the fact is that that is probably not the type of thing. If you're really addicted to TikTok then you are going to get onto it no matter what.

And you know, part of what's going on your, part of this hearing, this "Washington Post" poll that came out yesterday, do you in fact supported a TikTok ban? Forty-five percent say yes, but I want to point out a lot of people are unsure at 33 percent. Why do they perhaps support a TikTok ban? Because among voters, 74 percent think it harms teens' mental health, 68 percent say it collects American's personal data. It's likely that it does, and 59 percent say it lets the Chinese government control that Americans see. So I think that these hearings may go a long way in helping -- HARLOW: I just want to be clear, these are fears, these are not

backed up by facts.


ENTEN: These are what -- these are what voters believe. These are what voters believe.

HARLOW: OK, Harry. Thank you very, very much. Don?

LEMON: We're going to dig in a little bit more. So here's what TikTok CEO Shou Chew is expected to tell lawmakers this morning. We've gotten a copy of his remarks, OK. He will say, quote, "Let me state this unequivocally. ByteDance is not an agent of China or any other country." His remarks will include broad promises to protect us user data to keep teens safe and to remain free from any government influence. And Chew's testimony is the company's most visible attempt yet to shake off concerns about potential for foreign spying that have spooked governments worldwide.

So joining us now is the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee Mark Warner. He recently introduced a bipartisan bill expanding President Biden's legal authority to ban TikTok nationwide. So, hello, we're wondering what he will be listening to today. Thank you so much for joining us. So are you zeroing in on Chew's answers on what TikTok does with this user data? What are you going to zero in on today?

SEN. MARK WARNER, (D-VA): A couple of things. First of all, it's even worse than your date. And I loved that earlier presentation. On average TikTok users are using TikTok about 90 minutes a day. I bet you wish everyone of your CNN viewers spent 90 minutes a day on CNN. And respectfully, what this what the TikTok CEO says, of course ByteDance would never turn this over to the communist party. He doesn't have any say in that. China changed its law in 2017 that requires every company when requested to turn over data to the government.

So the notion, and one of the geniuses of TikTok is it learns from you. Every time you're on the site, it starts to get to know you, what you like better than even what you know. Do you want all that information ultimately residing under the guise of the communist party of China, number one.

Number two, this is a powerful propaganda machine if it's used that way. You pointed out that candidly the TikTok version that Chinese kids see doesn't have the kind of stuff that that our kids see. It emphasizes science, engineering, be a good student, be a patriot. This is an incredible misinformation, disinformation machine. I'm not saying they're doing it right now, but that potential, if President Xi in China wants to somehow invade, wants to invade Taiwan, and suddenly folks not only in America but around the world are starting to see videos that reinforces that kind of message, that is a propaganda tool that makes every other possibility pale.

So I think there needs to be a rules-based approach that says when we've got technology from countries like China and Russia, there needs to be the tools that say if they pose a national security threat we will give the Secretary of Commerce tools to take care of that. We've gotten now 10 Democrats, 10 Republicans, backing of the administration. This is not the first time we've had this kind of issue. A few years back it was a Chinese telecom Huawei. Before that it was the Russian software company Kaspersky. We need a rules-based approach that takes on foreign technology from adversarial nations.

COLLINS: Senator, given that, is there anything the CEO can say today to convince you that TikTok isn't a national security threat?

WARNER: I've respectfully met with the CEO. I've met with the TikTok team. I've heard them out. I don't think -- they are owned by ByteDance, a Chinese company. At the end of the day, I don't think they're masters of their own fate. Chinese law trumps anything that a corporate management wants to do.

And I would point out one other thing that I think will hopefully make the point. President Xi and the Chinese leadership have said they would rather get rid of TikTok in America than give up the source code, the magic formula that resides in Beijing. Through divestiture, part of the requirement was that source code had to be located in America.

HARLOW: There's two points of fact here, Senator, and I think a lot of people share your concerns. But our Brian Gong did a great fact check just on what we actually know versus the fears that are laid out. There is no public evidence that the Chinese government has actually spied on people through TikTok. There was that surveillance of journalists, which was very troubling. They were fired, terrible that happened. But also to date, no public evidence that Beijing has harvested TikTok's commercial data for intelligence or other purposes.

I just wonder if you have any fear about choking something off that helps a lot of creators -- let me just finish the question -- choking something off that that the means a lot to a lot of creators and small businesses and as a source of revenue for them in that way, before these worst fears are realized. I've read through your Restrict Act. I know what it does, but just respond to that concern.


WARNER: Sure, let me -- let me do it in a reverse order. First of all, there's a lot of creative stuff on Tik Tok. There, we've seen the influencers, they make their living of for this. And, frankly, there are other American sites, YouTube and others -- my understanding, at least reimburse at a higher level. I absolutely believe in the market. If TikTok were somehow to drop away tomorrow, and whether it's an American company or French company, an Indian company, there will be a replacement site where people can still be creative, and earn that kind of living. I believe the market will provide that number one. Number two, on the question of no evidence? Respectfully, we see press report after press report.

And, you know, TikTok says, oh, I'm sorry, Chinese engineers got it this time -- Chinese engineers got this -- another time. You've got, frankly, individuals who are whistleblowers coming out. And I think this threat is real and one of the things that my legislation would do is require the intelligence community, to declassify as much information as possible. So, it's not -- don't just trust the government. And final point I make this is -- this is not just an issue in the United States. Look at the other nations Canada's blank bandit off of their government phones, Britain has the same. Recently, the Netherlands said if you're a journalist, don't have this on your phone, because the Chinese are monitoring your journalistic activity.

HARLOW: I don't have it.

WARNER: And India has already banned it out right.

HARLOW: We want to ask you about banking as well. Kaitlan.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I obviously, we saw what happened yesterday. I know you wanted to see a pause in the interest rate hikes from the Federal Reserve. Obviously, that did not happen yesterday. We saw what we heard from Jerome Powell. But I had a separate question from you, which is on donations you received from SVB, which you said you would return. I believe that there was malfeasance to be found. Why not just return them now, though, Senator?

WARNER: Because if there's malfeasance and I believe you, it sure as heck appears to me that the bank was a little bit asleep at the switch. And the basic prudential regulation didn't kick in this was enter in banking 101. There was an interest rate mismatch. I will absolutely return at once we've seen the results of how this came about. If there's malfeasance this money goes back, that will be -- we'll figure that out by May 1st. That's when the Vice Chair of the Fed will make its report.

The other thing that I think we have to look at this, and I don't have a good answer on this. Is we've never seen a run, driven by the internet this quickly. $42.00 billion came out of this bank in one day in six hours. That's the equivalent of 25 cents on every dollar. And candidly, there were some folks from the Venture Capital Community, who I believe, incited this run. I'm not sure that's illegal, but it sure seems pretty darn immoral. But we got to get the answers first and if there needs to be -- for example, corrections.


WARNER: In the reforms that I supported back in 2018. Count me in, I think at the end of the day, this is going to be though a basic failure of prudential regulation 101.

HARLOW: Can I just ask a follow up to that? Because according to public filings over the last 10 years, your campaign and your team has received over $21,000 from SVB, including 5600 from the former CEO, Gregory Becker. I think everyone agrees there was certainly mismanagement at the least at that firm in terms of interest rate protections. You've called for in just the past week for executives, and their bonuses from SVB to be clawed back. Why should theirs be clawed back and your campaign donations not be returned?

WARNER: First and foremost, campaign contributions have never affected any bollock policy decision I've ever made full stop. And I will make the determination once the report is done, and I expect I'll probably be giving this back to charity the way a couple of other members have. But I do think we ought to get our facts first. And when we see the report, and matter of fact, I'm going to get a chance to talk to Mr. Becker next week in a public hearing. If he's got an interim report, and there is the evidence that malfeasance clearly this bank in appears at least didn't have a Risk Officer, either the last 12 months. That's another glaring red flag, I and I think others will, will take that action. But let's get the facts first.


WARNER: I mean, the irony is some folks are proposing a solution set before we actually have the facts. Let's get the facts, correct it make sure it doesn't happen again. And I sure as heck believe there ought to be claw backs if there is the malfeasance that you've suggested.

LEMON: All right, we understand and a full investigation and getting the reports. OK, that's certainly smart. Can we just -- I just want to get back to bottom line this TikTok and bite dance. Because there are lots of apps out there, get our information, you know, Twitter, TikTok, Facebook and so on meta. The big difference for you is people at home are watching, why is this any different? Why is TikTok any difference? Is the big difference, the Chinese Communist government having access to our information is that the bottom line here?


WARNER: The bottom line is that the Chinese Communist Party being able to access that data and potentially using it for nefarious purposes. Spying on folks that may be part of the Chinese diaspora, frankly, they're against the government. And also, this being used as a propaganda tool. Now, the American sites, listen, I think there ought to be privacy rules, I think there ought to be data portability, I think we need reforms on the section 230, which, frankly, gives these American sites a Get Out of Jail Free card, no matter what they put forward. And I think Congress ought to act on that. But as chairman of the Intelligence Committee, I believe TikTok poses a national security threat. And before all the potential bad action takes place, we ought to act.

LEMON: There's the answer. Thank you and we'll be watching. We appreciate you joining us --

WARNER: Thanks.

LEMON: -- this morning. Thank you.

HARLOW: Thank you so much, Senator.

LEMON: Thank you

COLLINS: And regarding what's happening with TikTok not just what the Senator was raising there, but also what we're going to see on Capitol Hill today. Be sure to watch CNN primetime tonight because Abby Phillip is going to host, the special is time up for TikTok 9:00 p.m. Eastern.

LEMON: In California, rare tornado, very rare ripping through the Los Angeles area, the strongest in 40 years. We're going to show you the damage.

HARLOW: And a pride display in Chicago was put on ice. We'll explain why look at that.



LEMON: A little bit disturbing -- OK, just going to warn you because there's new audio, just released now. 911 phone call from kids trapped in a New York city sewer. They were playing in the storm drain Tuesday and Staten Island. Police say that they travelled nearly a quarter mile through a tunnel into the source system before they got lost. And they call 911.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's the address in Staten?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't know?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, were like, we stuck in the sewer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once you went down, where's the sewer left, right, straight, where was it? I need you to guide me.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the right side. How long do you walk for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We like, yes, we walked a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Call for help guys, they hear your call for help.



LEMON: I mean, wow. 30 minutes later, all five of the kids were found pulled out of a manhole and taken to safety.


LEMON: Do you have kids?

HARLOW: I just they always ask me like, what is that mom? Like, and I'm like, go get away.

LEMON: In a place you don't go?

HARLOW: Yes, and I also worry about on the side of the sidewalk, you know, those doors that are open?


HARLOW: You know, I worry about?

LEMON: Yes. I'm glad they're OK.

HARLOW: Glad they're OK.


COLLINS: Also, happening right now, as you can see here, we are tracking major protests that are playing out in two key cities across the world. Paris and Tel Aviv, two different protests, but still both equally important. In France 12,000 police officers have mobilized because the country is bracing for more protests that we've seen in recent days over the President's new increased retirement age that's gone from 62 to 64. It's caused intense backlash that has led to issues with trash, paralyze trains and ports and shut down schools even. On the other side of the screens were watching what's happening in Israel. There's an ongoing protest there about the government's push to weaken the country's Supreme Court. CNN's Melissa Bell is in Paris, still tracking what's happening there. Melissa, are you on the streets? Clearly the anger here is not dissipating, over this push in the retirement age, even despite those new comments from the French president.

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think almost in part because of those new French comments by Emmanuel Macron. A new too Kaitlan, it was yesterday afternoon. He spoke on French national television vowing about long. Good incense, there's very little he can say this stage, given the anger that is out there. You can see we're not marching yet, this is what Paris looks like. This lunchtime, we're due to set off in about half an hour's time. There's always a kind of festival error about new things. We become so accustomed to them. This is the ninth day of official protests and strikes across the country.

But what we've seen over the course of the last week, are several days of spontaneous protests, Kaitlan. Because the French have been so incensed by the manner in which this law is being pushed through without a vote in Parliament, and being pushed you to 62 as you say, to 64. And those spontaneous protests have often led to violence. And you mentioned there's 12,000 Policemen on the streets of France today. That is also because although, the unions tend to manage to police these things fairly well, it's what we've seen on the other eight big days of protests so far this year. What we fear today is that given their spontaneous protests, given their violence, given us scuffles there have been with police, that this one is unlikely to go peacefully. Kaitlan.

COLLINS: All right, Melissa Bell, I know you'll be tracking these protests. Thank you so much.

HARLOW: More upsets, more big wins, overall madness. I don't know what camera to look at. Sorry about that. We're talking about the sweet 16 of the NCAA men's tournament. TNT sports reporter a force in her own right. Allie LaForce is here to break it all down.

COLLINS: And as we go to break before that this might be one of the most outrageous goals you've ever seen. A goalkeeper yes, goalkeeper until his top soccer league scored.


COLLINS: On the goal kick.


COLLINS: That is more than a hundred yards away. It might even break a world record, we're Google app while we're on the break.