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Wisconsin Supreme Court Race; David Axelrod is Interviewed about Wisconsin and Chicago Races; Fox Plans to Put Anchors and Executives on the Stand; Trump Faces 34 Felony Counts. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired April 05, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:08]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, Wisconsin is waking up to a major shift in the balance of power. CNN now projecting that the Democrat backed Janet Protasiewicz will win the state supreme court race. That means liberals will now hold the majority on that court for the first time in 15 years. This has massive implications when it comes to abortion, elections and redistricting.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny has been following this race very closely.

Jeff, I mean, these results -- everyone's watching Trump's speech last night, but everyone else was also keeping an eye on what was happening in Wisconsin because the implications of this aren't just from abortion, they could span for the next 10 years of what Wisconsin looks like when it comes to their politics.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: There's no doubt about it, Kaitlan. And actually they're very linked because Donald Trump, of course, only lost to Joe Biden by 20,000 votes in the state of Wisconsin. And the state supreme court had a case before it to look at those results, and only by one vote did they come close to overturning those results. That was at the center of this race as well.

But it was abortion rights that really was driving voters, we were told. We were out there a couple weeks ago talking to so many voters and politicians on both sides. And the state reverted back to an 1849 law that effectively banned abortion in nearly all cases after that Dobbs decision last year. So, this is one more example as we saw in the midterm elections last fall. And here again, abortion rights is still driving voters to the polls.

But as you said, gerrymandering as well. Wisconsin is a classic swing state, but it's been sort of heavily controlled by Republicans in the legislature because of how those lines are drawn. All of that now is out the window because this race last night, $40 million spent in the supreme court race, the most expensive judicial race ever in the country.

COLLINS: And this candidate was really fascinating because she kind of shattered the way you see judicial races run. She talked openly about how she felt about the maps and abortion.

ZELENY: Right.

COLLINS: And, Jeff, so I think that raises the question, given how clearly she feels about the maps, do you expect that Democratic groups, based on the time you spent on the ground, are now going to try to bring some of these cases knowing she will be one playing a role in those?

ZELENY: Without a doubt. I mean there are going to be a cases on abortion, on gerrymandering, on other matters. And it is very unusual. You might say, why is Wisconsin electing supreme court judges anyway? Well, it's actually one of 14 states, according to the Brennan Center for Justice, that directly elects its supreme court justices. It's just how it is done there and in many other states. And it did become a very -- it's a technically non-partisan, but practically it was anything but that. The Wisconsin Democratic Party through millions and millions of dollars into this. Republicans did not do as much on their side. But there were all these outside groups spending so much money.

But this is going to have an effect on 2024 simply because of how rules are voting. The drop boxes where people are dropping off early ballots and things, those have been outlawed as well . Look for cases to come before the supreme court on that. So, this is why this was viewed as the most important race in 2023. And I do not think that that is an overstatement at all, Kaitlan.

COLLINS: Expensive race.

Jeff Zeleny, thank you for that.

ZELENY: You bet.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: So, let's discuss everything we can politically right now. Joining us now, CNN senior political commentator and former senior adviser to President Barack Obama, Mr. David Axelrod.

Good morning to you.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning, you guys.

First of all, let me say, you've just got -- you've earned your anchor stripes because you said Protasiewicz correctly.

COLLINS: Thank you.

AXELROD: That is a -- that is a very hard name to pronounce.

COLLINS: And as much help as I need on pronunciations, I really will take that badge of honor. It was a lot of trying (ph).

LEMON: We have this discussion all the time.

HARLOW: He's the master of pronunciation. I'm the worst. And I think Kaitlan's improving by the day on those -- AXELROD: Well, that was a good job.

LEMON: Well, that was - you say it really fast, which is (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: Yes, exactly. She's nailed it all morning.

LEMON: So, I'm glad you -- because that's where I want to start with. We'll get to Chicago.

AXELROD: Yes.

LEMON: I want to start with that because the liberal justice's win in Wisconsin is going to determine how the court is going to rule legally - on legal challenges to Wisconsin's 1849 law banning abortion that took effect when Roe v Wade was overturned.

AXELROD: Yes.

LEMON: How significant do you think this is, David.

AXELROD: I think it's hugely significant for all the reasons that Jeff just said. And that's the reason that $49 million was spent on a supreme court race. We could have a whole separate discussion about the propriety of that. But, you know, I think the future of abortion rights was on the ballot. I think that the election of '24 will be profoundly impacted by it.

You know, last night we were all focused on Donald Trump, as Donald Trump probably likes, but the truth is, this race in Wisconsin has big implications for '24. It may have been the more important story than the one we saw yesterday, which is going to be a long running one.

[08:35:03]

HARLOW: Do you think it -

LEMON: You and I had that discussion, you know, off camera.

AXELROD: Yes.

LEMON: Yes.

AXELROD: Yes. So, that and Chicago, I think, were real, tangible, major events yesterday that probably got overlooked because of the spectacle here in New York.

HARLOW: Do you think they mean a lot outside of Chicago and Wisconsin, respectively?

AXELROD: I do. Yes. Well, obviously, if the -- if the decisions that they Wisconsin supreme court makes has an implication for abortion rights, that has national implications. And the rules and the administration of the election in Wisconsin in 2024, probably the most closely divided state, certainly in the north. You know, yes, I think that one had big implications. And in Chicago, you, you know, you just spoke to our mayor-elect. He

is taking the city -- he's going to take the city in a different direction. This was really a referendum on how to -- how to approach public safety, which is that was the 1st, 2nd and 3rd most important issues to voters in Chicago, and he had a much different approach than his opponent, who really emphasized adding 1,800 new police and Brandon Johnson said, no, we've got to invest elsewhere. Now he has to make it work.

LEMON: Different direction, how so?

AXELROD: Well, here's the point. And it's not a bad one, is Chicago already, even though there has been a reduction of police over the last few years, has vastly more police than Los Angeles per capita, even more than New York, and yet worse results. So, it isn't just a matter of policing, it's a matter of violence prevention and what you can do to reduce poverty in some of the communities in the city. So, you know, he represented that. He had, in the past, had talked - he had talked about defunding police, and really what he meant was shifting resources to mental health and some other areas that were being short changed.

The issue is going to be, Brandon Johnson's never run anything larger than a classroom when he was a teacher, and now he's running the third largest city -- third largest city in the country. And that's a big jump. And we'll see how he deals with that.

And the second is, how will the city's police react? The police union chief who was supporting his opponent, who -- and who is really a very right wing force in the city, predicted that 1,000 police would resign if Johnson was elected.

COLLINS: Well, and the other complicating factor of that, and I think we always try to read until elections of what does it mean in Los Angeles, what does it mean what's happening with Lori Lightfoot. We talked about how impactful that was.

AXELROD: Yes.

COLLINS: Is it voters rejecting tough on crime measures, though, because the margin here was not that that -- 51.4 to 48.6. It - it's very -- very divided.

AXELROD: Yes. Yes, the city is very divided. Listen, there is real, real concern about crime in Chicago, and he needs to be focused on that. And he needs to be focused on how to deal with the police department and his relationship with the police department, even as he pursues these other things. So it's a big challenge.

But, Poppy, you ask, why is this a nationally important election?

HARLOW: Yes.

AXELROD: Not just because of the model that he's going to try and implement, but he also was an iconic figure with progressives. He started at 2 percent, captured the imagination the city had, Bernie Sanders had, Elizabeth Warren.

HARLOW: Yes.

AXELROD: He is going to be a prominent progressive figure in our politics from this point on,

LEMON: David, this is probably a big question and don't get mad at me, producers, because I have to ask you this, if you can do it shortly, how does -- because I lived there under Mayor Daley? Is it -- how does it feel not having, you know, the daily machine? Does the city feel different now under different regimes, under different mayors.

AXELROD: Well, you know, there was a sense of solidity, right? This was, you know, the Daley name, they were half a century basically they ran Chicago. So, it was a little bit like Lake Michigan. You know, it was like a staple.

LEMON: Always there.

AXELROD: And people felt comfortable with that.

But, you know, I think people also, what they voted for here, was change.

LEMON: Change.

AXELROD: And they're going to get it.

LEMON: Thank you. Great to see you.

AXELROD: You bet.

HARLOW: You were part of a campaign about change.

AXELROD: Yes, I've heard - yes.

HARLOW: And -

LEMON: Hope and change.

AXELROD: Yes.

HARLOW: Thank you.

AXELROD: My wife always says, you like to run campaigns about change, but you really don't like it yourself.

HARLOW: Better to make other people affect (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: Ouch.

COLLINS: Bring her next time.

HARLOW: Thanks, David.

Well, Fox News says it will put some of its biggest name anchors on the stand to testify in that billion dollar plus defamation case brought by Dominion Voting Systems. We'll tell you who they are and where this goes from here.

LEMON: Oliver Dorsey is here.

COLLINS: He's in the building.

AXELROD: Man, I can't wait for that case. Yes.

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[08:43:07]

HARLOW: This morning, Fox says it is preparing to put some of its most prominent anchors and executives on the stand to testify in the Dominion defamation trial.

Oliver Darcy has been following this closely. He's with us now.

And this goes to trial in a few weeks. This is huge.

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Yes. And this is shaping up to be very agonizing I think for Fox News because it looks like you're going to have weeks and weeks of trial where some of the most prominent hosts over at the network are compelled, or at least take the stand. Maybe not compelled. Fox would dispute that. But they're going to likely take the stand in this trial. And so you're going to have these people, people like Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, Maria Bartiromo, testifying about their broadcasting of election lies, and you're also probably going to see testimony showing that executives over at the network, people like Suzanne Scott or Jay Wallace, knew that these claims that Trump was making in the aftermath of the 2020 election were nonsensical, were delusional, but that they still allowed some of these conspiracies to take hold on the network.

HARLOW: They've got the receipts, they've got the texts.

DARCY: They have the texts. They have emails. And they're going to have a live testimony at this trial and under oath. I imagine, these people will be very honest about what they knew and what they allowed on the network.

LEMON: Is it the logical question though is, why not a settlement? Because at this point wouldn't you think Fox would feel sort of compelled to settle and rather than go to court and have all of this exposure.

DARCY: Everyone, you know, that I talk to says that Fox should settle this, but they haven't. I mean they've let it get to this stage, and they are preparing to go to trial. This trial does start just in a couple of weeks. April 13th is jury selection, so that's next week, and then the trial will actually get underway on April 17th.

LEMON: Wow, that's fast.

DARCY: Unless there is a last minute midnight settlement. HARLOW: Two parties have to want to settle. Who's to say Dominion

wants to settle.

LEMON: Yes.

DARCY: That's another thing, Dominion might want to take this to trial and, you know, try their odds.

HARLOW: This might be about more than a billion bucks.

DARCY: Yes.

HARLOW: I think this is about more than a billion bucks.

Thanks, Oliver.

[08:45:01]

COLLINS: Have fun in Delaware. I'll send you some restaurant recommendations for Wilmington.

DARCY: I know.

COLLINS: I spent a lot of time there.

DARCY: President Biden's backyard.

COLLINS: Yes, a lot of time there.

HARLOW: There you go.

COLLINS: All right, this just in, some serious news. We are told there are multiple injuries and multiple fatalities in Missouri after we earlier were talking about a tornado that had touched down early this morning. Obviously, the worst tornadoes are those nocturnal ones. Officials say it's an active search and rescue event. We'll take you live to the ground, next

LEMON: Oh, man.

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[08:50:02]

HARLOW: For your morning moment, an update to a story we brought you in December when winter storms caused those huge flight disruptions. Remember that. Fifty-seven-year-old Patrick Holland was planning to travel to -- from Alaska to Seattle for a heart transplant when his flight got diverted and canceled. He spoke with us about what it was like to go through.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK HOLLAND, RECEIVED A NEW HEART AFTER MISSED TRANSPLANT: Then the second flight got canceled. And then the third flight got canceled. And then the -- at then I knew - at this point I knew - I told my brother, I said, the next phone call is not going to be good. And just as I was calling her, she was calling me back to tell me that they were going to give the heart to somebody else.

It's tough to -- to have a body that wants to run but not to have a heart that will let you. So, it's -- it takes away a lot. But, you know, on the same side, I believed that somebody else was going to get a miracle gift. So, we just prayed for them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: He was such an amazing man to talk to and have on the program. Well, get this, determined to not miss the next opportunity, Patrick temporarily relocated to Seattle. He stayed with a family who had seen his story on the news. And after nearly four months on the donor list, he got that call.

Earlier this week, Patrick's wife, Holly, posted on Facebook his heart transplant was a success. He is now recovering at the University of Washington Medical Center.

COLLINS: So happy to hear that.

COLLINS: There you go. To good things happening in this world to good people.

LEMON: You want to know what really matters. We talk about a lot of stuff, right? Family, life, (INAUDIBLE), that really, really matters.

COLLINS: Yes. So happy for him.

HARLOW: Love that.

COLLINS: Also this morning, we're still tracking what happened in Mar- a-Lago overnight. The former president is facing charges. He's taking on critics, though. He act - he didn't speak much in New York. He said a lot last night. We'll break it down. We'll fact check it. That's next.

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[08:55:31]

LEMON: The conversation keeps happening as we are in the commercial breaks. Sometimes we just forget we're on television.

So, this morning, the former president is waking up as a criminal defendant, accused of orchestrating a hush money scheme ahead of the 2016 election. His next in person hearing with Manhattan prosecutors, that will be scheduled for -- that is scheduled for December 4th. So back with us now, CNN anchor and correspondent Audie Cornish, who's the host of "The Assignment" podcasts. Also with us, Nick Akerman, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, and the former assistant special Watergate prosecutor.

Nick, I want to get your takeaways because so many people are saying it's a weak case, it's a weak case. And as I have been reading through this, I don't know if - is that - what do you think? I'm not sure that's right.

NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: No, no, absolutely not. I think this is an extremely strong case. First of all, if you just start with the evidence. Anytime I had two accomplished witnesses in a criminal prosecution, I felt I had a strong case, especially if you've got the corroboration like you have here with a tape recording, lots of documents that back everybody up. But then on top of this you've got other witnesses that were called in such as, oh, the -- his people around him that were involved in all this. Michael Cohen was - it wasn't just Michael Cohen, but --

HARLOW: Pecker.

LEMON: Cohen. Pecker.

AKERMAN: Yes, Cohen and Pecker are the two -

LEMON: Kellyanne Conway.

AKERMAN: The two chiefs witnesses. But you've got Hope Hicks. You've got others that have been called in. You've got all these people that were called into the AG's investigation that are locked in stone on their depositions. So, this, in a sense, is a strong case in terms of what they're trying to prove. There's really not much of a legal issue on the felony part of this.

LEMON: Not laying out an underlying crime.

AKERMAN: Yes, the underlying crime is going to be false tax returns for the corporation. Every time they put in false expenses, those false expenses went to the corporate tax return that was then filed with New York state. That's a felony.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: But how are you hearing the criticism, because you've sat in that chair, right? So like, for you, when you hear people saying, this is more complicated than it looks, these weren't the right charges, this isn't the right time. For someone who sat in that seat, what do you hear when you hear people say that?

AKERMAN: They don't know what they're talking about because there's a lot more evidence here that's going to come out at trial to show how this relates. You're going to get an accountant to testify. Very boring testimony. Basically, following the numbers from the Michael Cohen checks right into the tax return that's filed in New York state.

In addition, this case is important. It really is the book end to what happened in the 2024 (INAUDIBLE), the next election, basically. I mean what he did in the last election was essentially make up a big lie about election fraud. And on -- based on that lie, committed a whole series of felonies that related to false electors, trying to importune state officials to change the electoral vote for Biden.

And in this case what he did was, he basically -- it was a lie of omission. A lie of trying to conceal information from the voting public. CORNISH: Or at least what all these prosecutors are trying to prove.

You're saying what he did, but this is their challenge, right, over the next couple of weeks (ph).

AKERMAN: Well, they're going to be able to prove that. I mean they've got two witnesses who are basically going to lay that out. David Pecker and Michael Cohen. And so that's the thrust of it. I mean, on top of it all, they also had a plot, not only to stop negative information from appearing in "The National Enquirer," but they were also going after Trump's competitors. I mean they haven't detailed that in the complaint. But, boy, I'd love to know which Republicans, which Democrats were, you know, hung out to dry in "The National Enquirer" during the 2016 election.

I mean this is a very, very serious situation revolving around this indictment that people have not focused on and have to look at it as two bookends. One, Trump getting elected to presidency in 2016, and then trying to hold onto the presidency through a false scheme, a fraudulent scheme.

LEMON: Yes.

COLLINS: Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes.

Yes.

LEMON: It's - it is early. They're like, we have 30 seconds left.

COLLINS: Can we quickly -

HARLOW: Yes.

COLLINS: Can we talk about one thing, though, with Audie, which I noticed yesterday, as I was up to the courthouse, is Trump have been calling on all these protests. They didn't materialize.

LEMON: Yes.

HARLOW: No.

COLLINS: Certainly not the way that he had expected. Not even around the country, really? What do you think it's about?

CORNISH: Yes, I mean, when New York City wants to clamp down and make their kind of security situation, they can do it.

[09:00:05]

So, first of all, I think it was just hard.

But, second of all, what's the incentive right now? After seeing what happened to folks with January 6th, I'm sure people don't feel as compelled to turn out in the streets.

LEMON: In the papers all over the country. Every major paper, it's on the front, this photograph. It is a lot.

COLLINS: Yes.

LEMON: Hey, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it. We'll see you tomorrow.

HARLOW: See you tomorrow.

LEMON: "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.