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Pence Won't Appeal Judge's Order to Testify to Special Counsel; Israeli Police Storm Al-Aqsa Mosque for Second Time; Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) Meets Taiwan's President on U.S. Soil Despite China's Threats. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired April 06, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

DON RIDDELL, CNN HOST: I know. I should have just talked about that for two straight minutes. That would have been much better T.V. Sorry, next time.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: No, they're just so cute.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Kaitlan just wants one of those outfits. I want one too. Look at that, oh, my God.

COLLINS: I do love the Masters. Master Sunday is like one of the greatest Sundays of the year. So, I love to listen to it on the radio actually. It's so peaceful.

LEMON: It was a big thing when I lived in Atlanta, people would go. We would jump in the car and go to the practice rounds and just eat and eat and walk around and, you know, drink to a little bit. Don, great assignment.

COLLINS: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Have fun. CNN

This Morning continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mike Pence headed to the witness stand and the DOJ's January 6th investigation.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: This would be the first time that a former vice president testifies about his former boss in a criminal investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that there will be more than he can shed light on, particularly when it comes to his conversations with the former president?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having the vice president of United States with a special counsel under oath, I think, adds enormous value.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): We take our support for the people of Taiwan seriously.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The White House has tried to downplay the historic nature of the meeting and it's urged China not to try not to overreact.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Beijing threatening to fight back, calling the meeting a violation of its sovereignty.

MCCARTHY: I am the speaker of the House. There is no place that China is going to tell me where I can go or who I can speak to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now concern is mounting in the Middle East after Israeli police and Palestinians clashed at one of Islam's holiest sites during two separate raids.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police said the worshipers were fortifying themselves within the sacred holy place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have denounced Israel for what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A deadly mystery in San Francisco. Cash App founder Bob Lee killed in an apparent stabbing attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a city where anybody should fear for their lives at 2:30 in the morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is the absolute perception that that San Francisco is kind of the focus of the soft on crime trends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can be anxious, sensitive, kind and wear your heart on your sleeve. You can be a mother or not. You can be a nerd, a crier, a hugger. You can be all of these things. And not only can you be here, you can lead just like me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Good morning, everyone. So, glad you could join us. You can see Kaitlan and I are here in New York. Obviously, Poppy is on assignment. Where? Well, no surprise, it says Atlanta right above her head. Maybe she's heading to the Masters, but I think it's probably a big interview that she's going to do, always business.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: We're looking forward to it. Yes. We're going to sit down a little later this afternoon with Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan, talk all about the banking crisis. First time he's really sat down for an extensive conversation about what on earth is going on with the banks, our economy, the debt ceiling, a little bit of politics. They're opening a community branch here in Atlanta, so we'll have that for you on the program tomorrow morning, guys.

Yes, just a few pressing topics.

HARLOW: Just a few.

LEMON: Just a wee bit. All of that and more. Plus this, it looks like Mike Pence might finally testify in the special counsel's investigation of the former president, Donald Trump. Pence's spokesperson says that the former vice president will not appeal a judge's order to appear before the grand jury investigating the January 6th insurrection and Trump's efforts to overturn the election. So, that means that Pence could potentially testify about conversations he had with Trump leading up to the insurrection, including that heated phone call on the morning of January 6th when Pence refused to block Joe Biden's victory.

Plus, a CNN exclusive for you, sources are telling CNN that the former national security officials have testified that Trump was repeatedly warned that he did not have the authority to seize voting machines.

Let's discuss all of that, and much more. Let's bring in our Chief Investigative Correspondent and Anchor Ms. Pamela Brown. She hosted a CNN Primetime special just last night on the Trump investigation. Good morning to you. Thank you very much.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. It's great to be here, first time on the set here.

LEMON: Yes, it's good to have you. How significant do you think Pence's testimony will be for the special counsel, Jack Smith?

BROWN: I think very significant. I know, Kaitlan, you probably feel the same way, like this was Trump's number two. As you mentioned, there was a heated phone call on the day of January 6th before that happened. There were many conversations, our reporting indicates, leading up to January 6th, where Trump was pressuring Pence to intervene and to go outside of the bounds of his constitutional role. And, you know, essentially, all an effort to overturn the election results.

And so now, as it stands, and we don't know whether Trump's team is going to appeal an executive privilege grounds, but as it stands now, he will have to testify most likely before a grand jury to prosecutors without any protections except for the limited speech or debate clause protections, which is a little fuzzy in terms of like what exactly that's going to cover.

[07:05:09]

But it seems as though a lot of those one on one conversations will be part of it.

LEMON: Just to clarify, he is not going to appeal, Pence, but Trump's team could appeal. Is that what you're saying?

BROWN: Yes, Trump's team. Yes. So, Pence, he said he is not going to appeal. But Trump's team can still appeal on the executive privilege grounds.

COLLINS: Even if they do appeal, I mean, they have been losing most every executive privilege fight that they've been waging. It's not -- that's what I'm struck by, is that Pence obviously could be the most consequential one because he had the one-on-one conversations with Trump. But its Mark Meadows, it's all of these other top Trump officials that they tried to get them from testifying, but they've lost those battles, as we reported earlier this week.

BROWN: It's striking.

COLLINS: It didn't get a lot of attention Trump was in court that day, but it could be very significant for Jack Smith's investigation.

BROWN: It is striking, and it would be actually a little bit surprising if they appeal on that, because then potentially they're going to have another loss, right? And, I mean, it's clear where that is going given what you just said, with the Mark Meadows and others that they have lost with on the executive privilege grounds.

But this is a huge development that Mike Pence is going to be talking to Jack Smith and the prosecutors, potentially a grand jury, about his conversations with Trump. And what it does is it helps prosecutors, investigators understand Trump's state of mind too in efforts to overturn the election. You know, did he know that he lost, but he was still engaged in this pressure campaign to have people like Mike Pence engage in these efforts? So, it's significant.

LEMON: Another Trump investigation, let's talk about Manhattan now. Because on that case, you heard that Trump ally -- you heard from Trump ally Mike Davis last night, who was critical to D.A. Alvin Bragg and the judge. What do you think?

BROWN: Yes, he was. And he was basically carrying on the line that we've heard from Trump himself and others in Trump's world that basically, you know, look, that this judge is biased, even though Joe Tacopina, Trump's lawyer, has said he didn't believe he was biased. This is clearly a political attack against this judge, Merchan.

Here's exactly what Mike Davis said about it to me last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE DAVIS, FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT, ARTICLE III PROJECT: If the judge has the appearance of bias, which it looks like he does, he donated to Joe Biden's campaign, he should get off this case. And this judge has a history with President Trump in prior cases. So, maybe that's what President Trump is referring to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And I think you're going to continue to hear this new talking point about the judge's donations. We looked into it. There are FEC filings that show that the judge donated through Act Blue, which is a progressive platform for contributions to Democratic candidates. He did donate and it looks as though it's a very small amount.

COLLINS: Like $30.

BROWN: Yes. It was like-- I think, yes, I think it was $35 altogether, but $15 to buy them. But still very small, small number, right, under $50, but that's not going to stop them from attacking this judge.

And, you know, I really pressed him on the fact that this -- Trump did this only hours after being told by that judge, listen, don't engage in rhetoric that could cause harm or potentially incite violence. We know that Trump has very devout followers, right? But then hours later, he not only goes after the judge, he goes after the judge's family in this case.

But I think you're going to continue to hear this talking point about the judge, and they're going to argue he's bias and try to take him off the case ultimately, like he said.

LEMON: You wonder if they're so confident in why they'd go after the judge.

COLLINS: Yes, they are. I mean, Trump obviously, as you know, has a history of going after judges. And we should note that what he was saying there about the history with Trump is because he was over the trial for Allen Weisselberg, who is obviously serving out his sentence right now. That was the chief financial officer of the Trump Organization.

But you also spoke with the jury foreman of the failed trial of John Edwards. And, of course, that is something that the Trump campaign and Trump's team has been drawing a comparison between the two of those. This is what the foreman told Pam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE RECCHION, JURY FOREMAN IN THE TRIAL OF JOHN EDWARDS: I think the key difference that I see in this one is that it feels a little bit more political than it did back in the John Edwards case. And I know there were politics involved, but at the time, it felt -- you didn't feel the same circus kind of feeling as you do today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So, they've been drawing that comparison. You know, how relevant do you see that as a tie or an indication of what could happen here?

BROWN: I mean, look, there are a lot of similarities. The bottom line of the Edwards case, bottom line in this Manhattan Trump cases is that there was a hush money scheme to benefit a political campaign, right? Now, there are differences. John Edwards was federal. Trump, obviously, this is in the local level.

But it is significant and it was really illuminating to talk to this juror because he was looking at many of the same circumstances and facts when he was the foreman in the John Edwards case, and he said that the credibility of the star witness is very important.

[07:10:00]

And as we know, John Edwards was acquitted, and he's -- and I asked him, I said, well, then what do you think about Michael Cohen, because he is the star witness in this case? And he said, I think he didn't want to go there specifically and do any sort of attack on Cohen, but he said, I put Cohen in the similar campus as star witness in John Edwards' case, which he didn't believe was very strong and, ultimately, as we know, how they voted.

So, it was illuminating. And, of course, there's a lot in this case we don't know, right, a lot of the corroborating evidence and information that's just not out there yet, but it was really illuminating given the similarities in these cases.

LEMON: You've got January 6th, you've got the D.A. here, you've got E. Jean Carroll, you've got the special counsel. There's a lot going on, added up.

COLLINS: Georgia, where Poppy is.

LEMON: Yes. So, that's what's going to say we got Georgia right now. Thank you. It's good to see you, always a pleasure.

BROWN: Yes, good to see you.

COLLINS: Good to have you at the table.

BROWN: I know. It's was great. I hope to be back.

LEMON: We got Georgia where Poppy is, but they're on a different story today. Poppy?

HARLOW: Yes. And I missed. Of course, the one day I'm here, I don't get to hug my buddy, Pam, but she was great last night in the special. All right, hon.

But turning to what is happening really tense in Israel. Overnight, Israeli police storming Jerusalem's Al-Aqsa Mosque for a second time. This comes less than 24 hours after police raided the compound, firing stun grenades and rubber bullets. They arrested more than 300 Palestinians. These violent clashes taking place and they're happening as worshippers were inside, offering prayers for the holy month of Ramadan, and they're sparking retaliatory rocket fire from Gaza.

Hadas Gold joins us live this hour in Jerusalem with more. The question is where does this go. Does this go to 2021 levels?

HADAS GOLD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is the question that everybody has. Because in 2021, of course, similar clashes at the Al- Aqsa Mosque compound, which you can actually see behind me, helped spark that 11-day war between the Israeli military and Hamas. And we are seeing a sort of similar cycle now twice in less than 24 hours. The Israeli police have raided Al-Aqsa, and twice, in less than 24 hours, rockets have been fired from Gaza and into Israel.

Now, overnight, the Israeli police raids into the Al-Aqsa Mosque seemed to be a little bit less, you could say, dramatic than the night before, not nearly as many people were injured or arrested. But it also happened during a much busier time period. There seemed to be for kind of your regular worshippers who were inside the mosque. But, once again, Israeli police saying that they had to go in because they believe that there were dozens of what they call juveniles who barricaded themselves inside with fireworks and stones they were preparing to throw at Israeli police.

But, again, it's hard to underestimate how or hard to overestimate how provocative and offensive it is seen around the Muslim world, especially for Israeli police to even step foot inside of the Moscow, let alone engage with things like stun grenades and rubber bullets. Of course, then again, overnight, once again, we saw the response from militants in Gaza, saying that they were responding specifically to what was happening at Al-Aqsa with at least seven rockets fired.

So far, though, I have to say it doesn't seem as though right now there's an interest by either the side of Hamas or the Israeli military to escalate this further, but Hamas has called on Palestinians today to march here, to march to Al-Aqsa, to show their support. Poppy?

HARLOW: Hadas, thank you very much for that reporting from Jerusalem. Don?

LEMON: At least 417 anti-LGBTQ bills have been introduced in state legislatures across the United States since the start of the year. It's a record, that's according to data from the American Civil Liberties Union. That's more than twice the number of such bills introduced all last year.

Now, along with the renewed push to ban access to gender-affirming health care for transgender youth, there has been heavy focus on curriculum in public schools, including discussions around gender identity and sexuality.

This new wave of anti-LGBTQ legislation many directly targeting that nearly 2 million transgender people living in the U.S. comes at a time when one in four transgender adults said that they have been physically attacked. That's according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

COLLINS: Also this morning, Idaho's Republican governor has now signed a new abortion bill into law. This new law creates a new crime, abortion trafficking and bans adults from helping minors get an abortion or abortion medication in another state without a parent's consent. The punishment is a minimum of two years but up to five years in prison.

Abortion right groups are vowing to fight the new law, and the governor says that he signed it the same day that healthcare providers sued the state's attorney general over new abortion guidance. Of course, months ago, last fall, the Biden administration sued Idaho over its new tighter abortion restrictions. That's a case that has been closely watched, of course, across the country.

And just to think about that, but also what we're seeing from voters, as we saw what happened to Wisconsin, like it's amazing to see how that Dobbs decision has just changed and shaped the national landscape on abortion. LEMON: And so I think it's changing and shaping. You know, I don't think obviously it's not over yet. It's having a ripple effect that's still continuing throughout the country.

HARLOW: It's interesting because we were talking a little earlier offline, guys, about this Wall Street Journal -- it's notable, it's in The Wall Street Journal -- editorial board, out with this piece this morning, saying, look at the races this week in Chicago and Wisconsin.

[07:15:09]

We talked about him a lot on the show yesterday, guys. The Wall Street Journal is calling this a five-alarm fire for Republicans, saying Republicans better get their abortion position straight and more in line with where voters are or they will face another disappointment in 2024, pointing to, for example, what Michigan was able to do in the midterms, now makes their abortion law, for example, even more lean in, if you will, than it was under Roe. So, it's interesting, right, to see The Journal saying, Republicans, this is a warning sign for you across the country, Republican lawmakers.

COLLINS: Yes. I mean, that's what Nancy Mace, the Republican congressman from South Carolina, has been saying. She thinks that Republicans need to change not their entire stance on abortion but the way that they talk about abortion and health access for women, because they think it's damaging to their political future.

LEMON: The true test will be, you know, a big election where the people have to go and vote for representatives, what have you. Again, we saw what happened in Wisconsin. And so maybe that is a harbinger of things to come. We'll see.

COLLINS: We'll see. All right, Poppy, we'll check back in with you.

Also this morning in Baltimore, the archdiocese is now apologizing after a Maryland attorney general's investigation and report alleged there is widespread and repeated sexual abuse of more than 600 children. The report named 156 Catholic clergy members and others of the horrific abuse and cover-ups, not just the abuse, it's also the cover-ups that happened for more than six decades.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATTORNEY GENERAL ANTHONY BROWN (D-MD): This is a full accounting. There are details of repeated, tortuous, terrorizing depraved abuse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: CNN's Jean Casarez is tracking all of this coming out of the new report. I mean, this report, I was looking at this yesterday, it is staggering.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is staggering. We've seen it in other jurisdictions. Boston, I covered Pennsylvania, and now Maryland. This report, it was just released by Maryland's attorney general, and it alleges sexual abuse of at least 600 children over six decades, beginning in the 1940s, that abuse would have been committed by 156, at least, clergy members, from priests, deacons to teachers, others employees of the archdiocese.

The report alleged how victims they were plied with alcohol and drugs, and then they were coerced and forced to perform sexual acts. I want you to see exactly from the report. It says from the 1940s through 2002, over 100 priests and other archdiocese personnel engaged in horrific and repeated abuse of the most vulnerable children in their communities while archdiocese leadership looked the other way. Time and again, members of the church's hierarchy resolutely refused to acknowledge allegations of child sexual abuse for as long as possible.

Now, $13.2 million has been given to 303 victims at this point since the 1980. The money is going for counseling and for settlements. Many alleged victims were too late here, because according to the civil statute of limitations in Maryland, victims have no recourse if they are over 38 years old.

The report cites why they didn't come out sooner. Some wanted their parents to pass on before they would come forward. They didn't want their parents to know what they had endured. And by the time they did that, it was too late under the law. Others just didn't admit it, wouldn't acknowledge it and others have repressed memories.

COLLINS: That's heartbreaking. I mean, because you talk about the settlements that it's going to counseling and whatnot, but you can't -- money doesn't fix that.

CASAREZ: Yes. It was an amazing investigation in that they would go to old journals and find handwritten ledgers of priests and other personnel with the church. And it's amazing what they have put together but much more to do, and an issue now in Maryland statute of limitations.

COLLINS: Yes.

LEMON: Stunning. I really just don't know what to say. I've been reading at least 600 children. It's just crazy.

CASAREZ: And it is the victims, you know? It's the victim. What that does to someone's life forever?

LEMON: You can't fix that.

CASAREZ: You can't.

COLLINS: Do you think it could bring about a change in the statute of limitations? What does that look like?

CASAREZ: Well, it happened in New York, right, because New York developed a law passed by the legislature, so that for one year that there would be no statute of limitations, and people could come forward with their cases. And I covered the Kevin Spacey case in downtown New York City, and that was based on this law right there.

But it's challenging because memories fade, people pass on the older the cases and it's very difficult to prove.

COLLINS: Yes. All right, Jean.

LEMON: Yes. We'll continue to follow that, for sure. Thank you, Jean. I appreciate it.

Well, China making a new threat this morning after the House Speaker Kevin McCarthy met with Taiwan's president.

[07:20:03]

A Congressman who was at that meeting will join us live to weigh in. There he is.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: Well, my first message to China, there's no need for retaliation. But the one thing I would say to China too at no time, I am the speaker of the House. There is no place that China is going to tell me where I can go or who I can speak to, whether you be foe or whether you be friend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, it is a very busy morning as headlines about China's role in world relations are flowing in this morning. President Xi Jinping meeting with French President Emmanuel Macron, who is asking -- also asking Xi to help bring Russia back to the negotiating table in the Ukraine conflict. But China is warning the United States this morning and vowing to retaliate after the House speaker, Kevin McCarthy, met with Taiwan's president on American soil.

Hours after that meeting, a bipartisan U.S. House delegation landed in Taiwan. Taiwan's defense ministry says it detected Chinese warships around the island after McCarthy's summit. And they're keeping a close eye on this Chinese aircraft carrier aircraft carrier, a strike group, as it passes nearby.

[07:25:06]

So, these are photos. It's from just yesterday.

Back in August, though, China launched massive military drills and fired missiles near Taiwan after then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi visited the island.

CNN's M.J. Lee live for us at the White House this morning. M.J., good morning to you. How is the White House responding to this meeting?

M.J. LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, you know, the White House's response, if you can sum it up in one line, is probably there is nothing to see here. U.S. officials have been saying over and over again that there's nothing unusual about the Taiwanese president visiting the U.S. or even meeting with U.S. lawmakers here. And we've seen U.S. officials warning their counterparts in Beijing, do not escalate, do not take any aggressive action. But, of course, the administration is keeping an eye out for exactly that, and particularly when it comes to potential movements of Chinese military assets.

Take a listen to what White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre said yesterday about what Washington's message to Beijing has been in recent days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Our channels of communications are open and we have had a consistent message has urged restraint. And in recent days, we have conveyed directly to the Chinese at high levels that escalation is uncalled for. And so we'll continue to keep those channels of conversations open.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: You know, and something else we have been hearing from this White House is that this meeting was not official, that Taiwanese President Tsai did not meet with any administration officials. But one thing that I couldn't get an answer to yesterday from the White House spokesperson was whether administration officials were involved in sort of prepping Kevin McCarthy ahead of this meeting. So, guys, obviously goes without saying that this further sort of complicates what has been growing tensions between Washington and Beijing that we have seen in recent weeks.

LEMON: M.J., on a different note, speaking of growing, your family is growing.

LEE: That's right. My family is about to grow. Yes.

COLLINS: We're so excited for you. And we love having on the program and we're just wishing you all the best.

LEMON: We're saying that because it's your last day for a while. Yes, and we're so happy for you, and we wish you all the best. We're going to miss seeing you on the White House lawn every morning for a while, but you'll be back.

LEE: Just for a little bit. Thank you so much. I'll be back later this summer.

LEMON: All right. Congratulations to M.J. and the family.

LEE: Thanks.

COLLINS: Absolutely.

HARLOW: We are so happy for M.J., right?

Joining us now on that reporting that she just gave us from the White House, one of the lawmakers who met with President Tsai yesterday, Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts. He serves on the House select committee on China.

Congressman, it's great to have you here. Can we actually start with M.J.'s last piece of reporting there that it's just unclear if there was any involvement in the White House and prepping McCarthy and you guys for this meeting? Can you answer that? Because the stance they've taken has been really neutral and uninvolved. Is that correct?

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Well, I did not receive any White House or administration briefings. I'm not sure if the speaker of the House did or not. But, look, this is a very bipartisan event, and it's a routine event. President Tsai met with leader Hakeem Jeffries at the Democratic Party in New York just a couple of days ago. And this was a very bipartisan discussion that we had yesterday in California.

HARLOW: It certainly was. I mean, we all remember former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's trip to meet with them with President Tsai in Taiwan. And the fact that yesterday she praised Kevin McCarthy for this saying, quote, "It is to be commended for its leadership," I think shows how united you guys are vis-a-vis China on this front, on TikTok, on a lot of fronts. But do you think that actually turns into legislative action?

MOULTON: Yes, I think it will. We had that discussion yesterday. We talked with President Tsai about things that we can do to strengthen our economic cooperation. We talked about potential trade opportunities between our countries and also with our allies in Southeast Asia.

Remember, it's not just Taiwan that's concerned about China, South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, all are getting intimidated, threatened by the Chinese Communist Party right now. And we're allies together, and we stand for peace in the Pacific, just as we stand for peace in Ukraine and Europe and around the world. So, we have been talking about legislative steps that we can take and doing so in a bipartisan way. This is a very united American front here.

HARLOW: Did President Tsai ask for military aid? And if so, what exactly?

MOULTON: President Tsai didn't ask for any additional military aid than we're already providing, but she did ask that we speed up the delivery of the weapon systems that we've promised.

And we talked a lot about how deterrence here, deterrence against an invasion by China of Taiwan is more comprehensive than just a military operation.

Obviously, Taiwan wants to strengthen its defenses but they also recognize there's a piece for economic deterrents.