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U.S. Lawmakers Visit Taiwan Amid Growing China Tensions; One- on-one with JPMorgan's Jamie Dimon. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired April 07, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: This is something you do not see every day from both sides of the aisle who are on that trip.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Amid growing tensions with China, a bipartisan group of lawmakers have just arrived in Taiwan for a number of high-level talks with Taiwanese government officials.

This comes on the heels of House Speaker Kevin McCarthy's sit down with the Thai president in California despite threats from China.

Joining us from Taipei this morning are two members of the delegation that are there, Democratic Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania and Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York. Both are members of the Foreign Affairs Committee. And thank you to you both for being here.

Congressman, I'll start with you. What are you hoping to -- what kind of message are you hoping to send with this visit?

REP. MICHAEL LAWLER (R-NY): Well, thanks for having us, Kaitlan. I think this is a strong bipartisan endeavor into the Indo-Pacific. We went to Japan, South Korea and now Taiwan, as well as meeting with our service troops in Hawaii and Guam. And so this has been an extraordinary CODEL led by Chairman McCaul of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

[07:35:08]

And I think we've accomplished a lot in terms of gathering information with respect to our allies here in the Indo-Pacific, their concerns, obviously, with the threats coming from China but all also the importance of our relationship between the United States and our allies both economically, militarily and from a national security perspective.

And so I think we have learned a lot, for sure, but also have a lot of work to do when we get back to Washington. And this is a great bipartisan issue and I think we've had a great time traveling to the Indo-Pacific together. COLLINS: And Congresswoman, you are quite experienced on Capitol Hill.

You know well, you know, what kind of moment we're in when it comes to politics on Capitol Hill?

REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): I'm not hearing the question.

COLLINS: Maybe Congressman Lawler, you can tell her, just to see this moment of bipartisanship, to see a Democrat and a Republican sitting down together to have this conversation, to make this visit and the significance of that given where we are in politics in 2023?

LAWLER: All right, so --

DEAN: I got the end of it. Thank you, Kaitlan. I'm having a little trouble hearing. It is very important, as we are in this year of conflict around the globe to show a really united front. It was important to Chairman McCaul that we have a bipartisan CODEL and we had the chance, as Mike said, to first start in Hawaii and meet with our troops there to meet with the Indo-Pacific command and to understand really the gravity of all that is going on here militarily.

I have to tell you how impressed I am with our military folks. Anytime you sit down with them or have lunch with them, they're just dedicated individuals. But then to go from there, to go to Guam and see more members of the military there, to go on to Japan and then to South Korea gave us a terrific perspective of our rock-solid allies in Japan and South Korea as we came to Taiwan.

I really want to say that happy that Congress is really united on our support for Taiwan, both economically in its economic security and in our trade relationships, as I hope we build this year a bipartisan trade agreement. But also, of course, militarily for deterrence. We know that the best thing that we can do, that Taiwan can do is deterrence in order to protect peace. This is a people that are peace loving. That's one of the really terrific things about this trip, is to meet the people of Taiwan, understand their prosperity, their hopes for their children and their future. They're a peace-loving people. And so we support them in their deterrence against any aggression.

COLLINS: And speaking of that deterrence, there are a lot of weapons shipments that the U.S. has promised to Taiwan.

They haven't all made it there. A lot of them have not. How important is it? And what are you hearing from officials there about expediting the delivery of those weapons?

LAWLER: Well, that is certainly one of their concerns that they have raised with us during our conversations. And we're going to be meeting with President Tsai tomorrow. Obviously, she had a meeting in California with Speaker McCarthy and another bipartisan delegation of Congress. And that is one of the biggest concerns.

I think one of the lessons learned from the Russian invasion of Ukraine is the need to ensure that our allies, and in this situation Taiwan, have the support and the resources that they need. We made a commitment to them to provide them with weapons that they have purchased. We need to fulfill that commitment and expedite this process. And I think that's one of the takeaways from our trip, that we want to look at ways that we can -- from a legislative standpoint, expedite the process, both on the front end and on the production end, to make sure that these weapons are getting there soon.

Because at the end of the day, as Madeleine pointed out, deterrence is the key word. And nobody wants conflict in Taiwan or in the Taiwan Strait. We want to avoid that. But as President Reagan always said, peace through strength. And we need to ensure that we are strong in the Indo-Pacific region,

that our allies are strong, and Japan and South Korea, the Philippines, Australia and Taiwan. And we need to make sure that they get the weapons as soon as possible.

COLLINS: Congressman?

DEAN: We found that that is actually one of the issues here that we're very concerned about. I'm very proud of the Biden administration and this Congress for authorizing the sale of very needed weapons to Taiwan for the purpose of deterrence and readiness. Because if they are prepared, they will prevail. And by prevail, I hope it is prevail in simply maintaining peace and prosperity for this beautiful island and these beautiful people.

[07:40:18]

COLLINS: Yeah, it's such a critically important trip that you're on, and we see that here. We see how China is responding to it, issuing its own warnings.

Congressman Lawler, before I let you go, I do want to ask you about something that's happening here in the U.S., which is this extraordinary headlines that are coming out of Tennessee, the expulsion of these two Democratic lawmakers from the State House there. You're a Republican who is obviously in Washington, but do you think that they went too far by expelling these two Democrats for what they did on the state floor in Tennessee?

LAWLER: Well, respectfully, Kaitlan, I have not had the opportunity to really know what's going on in Tennessee.

We're about 12 hours ahead, and we've been in back-to-back meetings all day. So I think it'd be inappropriate for me to comment on it, frankly.

DEAN: If I could just say something. Today, we were with the legislature here in Taiwan. It was really an honor to be able to witness part of the session. And it was not just a bipartisan group of lawmakers, it's a quadripartisan group of lawmakers. And so anytime we can do what we can do to lift democracy, that's really our mission here. And it is important at home, just as it is here. So I think what Tennessee needs to pay attention to is what are the right moves for democracy, for the freedom of speech, freedom of representation, and for democracy, just like we are lifting up here.

LAWLER: And that is the truth. We need a robust exchange of ideas. That is what democracy is about. We're seeing it here on the island of Taiwan. They're going to be having their elections next January. And we had an opportunity to meet today with members from all parties and have a discussion.

And so, you know, I think all of us, collectively, as elected representatives, we have an obligation to uphold and uplift democracy. You need to have a robust exchange of ideas, and all of us have a responsibility in that for sure.

COLLINS: Yeah. Democratic Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania, Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York, a rare moment of bipartisanship. We do love to see that. And thank you both for taking the time to join us from your very important trip to Taipei. Thank you.

DEAN: Thank you, Kaitlan.

LAWLER: Thank you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: I always love when we can see lawmakers on different sides of the aisle together.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Especially considering what we're seeing in Tennessee, right?

HARLOW: That is a great point.

LEMON: Yeah.

HARLOW: All right, coming up for us, more of our sit down with JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon, his stark warning to Washington on the death ceiling, and what worries him most about the rise of artificial intelligence.

Plus this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIE DIMON, CEO, JPMORGAN CHASE: We support LGBT community aggressively and actively.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: And you still do that despite DeSantis?

DIMON: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:47:21]

HARLOW: A live look at Capitol Hill this morning, where debt ceiling talks have gone nowhere. Experts are warning that, look, if we don't reach an agreement, the U.S. will default on its debt as soon as this summer. So I asked JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon about what that really means when we sat down yesterday in Atlanta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: You think that Congress is going to get it together in the next few months and raise the debt ceiling?

DIMON: Oh, the debt ceiling.

HARLOW: That's what I'm talking about.

DIMON: Yes.

HARLOW: You do?

DIMON: The only question is, how close they get to it before they do it. Because you'll feel the pain before it happens.

HARLOW: How much pain? Even if we don't default, if we get to the brink?

DIMON: I think it's a bad idea. And, you know, our government debt can be downgraded again. This economy is the pillar of the world economy. This economy is the pillar of taking care of Americans, making sure our military is strong and making sure that people want to be part of our alliances. Do you want to be part of the American group that, you know, tries to keep the world safe for democracy? Yeah. That's important. So the close we get to that, the more we're going to damage all of that. And then you'll see it in the markets.

HARLOW: You'll see it?

DIMON: And that will scare people.

HARLOW: Well, I hope Washington's listening. The position of the Biden White House now is it will not negotiate with Republicans. And Republicans, many of them Kevin McCarthy, don't want to pass a clean -- they want concessions. So should the Biden White House negotiate?

DIMON: I think one of the great lessons of the last 20 years. Is that if you can't pass things with bipartisan support, you shouldn't pass it. I mean. If we -- yes, everyone should negotiate to do the right thing for the country. And I don't -- I don't want to get involved in the debate about the Republicans who want to reduce the deficit. I kind of agree with that. The Democrats who would like now to get rid of the debt ceiling crisis. But people have tortured each other's over and over. I'd

rather one day we get rid of the torture, but in the meantime, yes, I'd like to be resolved. And when I go to Washington, all the -- most of the people there know how serious this is, and they want to get it to resolution. You've even heard Kevin McCarthy talk about that, Mitch McConnell, President Biden, in his own way.

HARLOW: You have called out the Biden administration for not playing more of a leadership role in energy especially -- you said, look, America should have been pumping more oil and gas, should have been supported. This administration did just approve more drilling in Alaska. It's a good start?

DIMON: It's a good start, but it's just a start. I mean, this is a long-term strategy to me, that oil and gas. And the American public should know this. It's not secure. And if it's not secure and affordable it's bad for the climate. All that happened because we weren't pumping more is that more coal was used not just in India, Philippines, China, and Indonesia, but Germany and Netherlands and France turned back on their coal plants. Safe and portable is critical. The transition, by the way, the best -- the easiest way to do CO2 is reduce coal and gas. So therefore, you need pipelines.

[07:50:08]

But we're not -- you know, look at us. We're not approving pipeline permits. But nor are we approving solar, wind, grid. Like we're really stuck in our own underwear in this one.

HARLOW: Stuck in our own underwear?

DIMON: We have to do a better job.

HARLOW: Can I ask you, but a few states?

DIMON: Yeah.

HARLOW: You guys have more employees now in Texas in New York.

DIMON: Yeah.

HARLOW: And you've said it shouldn't have been that way. Why is it that way?

DIMON: Texas is completely welcoming. So if you look at it in multiple ways, low-income taxes, low corporate taxes, an easy-to-get space, they want you -- you know, the mayor's call, and they have great universities, they now have, you know, if you look at Dallas, they now have great arts and science. This -- it's become a competitive world. When I started working that wasn't true. Now, cities around the world are pretty competitive. And I think every city should say, you know, what's the competition, and they should be thoughtful about that. You have the highest individual taxes, the highest corporate taxes, the highest estate taxes, anti-business you can look at, you know, in New York didn't allow Amazon to build a great headquarters there. Like --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: -- more context of that, but I hear you.

DIMON: I understand that but just -- but why would you try to build in New York that --

HARLOW: You're building huge -- huge right in the middle in New York.

DIMON: Yes, doing best building the world's ever seen.

HARLOW: You love Florida. In fact, a few weeks ago, you said you were very pro-Florida, you're growing there. Does Governor DeSantis punishing Disney for taking a public stand on social and diversity issues, give you pause?

DIMON: Not directly. No.

HARLOW: Really? Because yes, this week, Bob Iger said, that's anti- business and anti-Florida and he said it's punishing a company for exercising a constitutional right.

DIMON: Yeah, I'm not going to get involved in all this social stuff like that. We support LGBT community aggressively and actively --

HARLOW: And you'll still do that in Florida despite DeSantis?

DIMON: Yes.

HARLOW: OK. I want to ask you about something that is in the news that JP Morgan has in the news about a former client of yours, and that is Jeffrey Epstein. JPMorgan is being sued now by the U.S. Virgin Islands. They're alleging that your bank helped facilitate payments, Epstein's victims and benefited from human trafficking while ignoring warnings. Do those allegations have merit?

DIMON: I cannot talk about current litigation except to say that whenever these things come up, we have some of the best lawyers in the world compliance out of the DOJ, out of SEC and fourth divisions who review all of these things and make decisions at the time based on what they know, as best as they know.

HARLOW: They're going to be deposed, we've learned now, in this case in the spring, in retrospect, Jamie, do you think JP Morgan should have acted more quickly after Epstein pleaded guilty to one of these charges in 2008? Because he was your client for five more years?

DIMON: Hindsight is a fabulous gift.

HARLOW: We're going to end on artificial intelligence. You find it fascinating and your word staggering, the tip of the iceberg. You guys are using ChatGPT? What's this going to do to our economy?

DIMON: Look would be OK. Every technology has ever been adopted, what's good for the economy? And you know, I tell people, you go back to 1900, 40 million people worked on farms. You know, technology is now 1 million people. Are we worse off? No, 39 million people now doing other things. So the internet, electric power, computers all made us better off, our GDP per person is $70,000. Yes, this is --

HARLOW: Per person, what if we get replaced?

DIMON: But you won't be, you know, it'll just change how you work and add things.

HARLOW: Really?

DIMON: But if it did, OK, but if it did, then society can step in, and make sure it's done in a way that people who have jobs and good paying jobs, but we get the benefit from it. The other thing I should point about AI there is a downside, bad guys are going to use it too.

HARLOW: Yeah.

DIMON: So, you know, for people like us, we use it for all these things, we almost have to take a risk and fraud and marketing and error is, you know, helping clients we also have to use it to combat bad guys in the cyber world, the fake ID world and things like that. So I think it'll be a plus, but it's just do a thought exercise, 2 million truckers are going to lose their jobs tomorrow because of, you know, AI driving, you know, and they're going to go from $75,000 a year to next job at 12. That would destroy families, I wouldn't do that. I would phase it in overtime have retraining --

HARLOW: So if you could, doesn't mean you should?

DIMON: Even if you could, does not mean you should. That's where societies to step in and government should step in and make sure that this helps everybody and then if there's someone's going to get hurt the low end do something about it, analyze it, think about it, retrained, reskill help them move or whatever would have been probably a better job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: And next hour finally, what Jamie Dimon thinks about the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank, what could have been done to prevent it? Also, about Russia's war in Ukraine how worried he is about that? And that he says it is changing everything we think about in the world. That's ahead next hour.

LEMON: We'll talk more, hindsight is a fabulous gift, though. We all -- that's a great quote, right?

[07:55:01]

HARLOW: Yeah, there's a lot to say there.

LEMON: Tiger Woods is back at the Masters with a painful end to the first round. We are live in Augusta, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I got to do it guys. What do you think?

COLLINS: Oh, boy.

HARLOW: Look at that?

LEMON: I was looking for my green.

HARLOW: Where is the green jacket, right?

LEMON: The second round of the Masters in Augusta, Georgia starting a little earlier this morning. Tee times had been moved up 30 minutes after the forecast calls for heavy rainfall today's. I know I'm looking like nerd. Tiger Woods struggling on Thursday with a noticeable limp. He needs a good day to make it through this weekend.

Don Riddell joins us live from Augusta. Don, I'm wearing a Masters hat so that's why, I look like a --

COLLINS: He's going to keep it on the whole time. Masters have -- but no masters jacket.

DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORT: It's a big day for -- it's a really big day for Tiger Woods. You know, we don't know how many more rounds of golf he's going to be able to play here. He told me earlier this week sometimes he's out on the course and he thinks this could be the last time.