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CNN This Morning
Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear Remembers Friend Killed By Gunman At Louisville Bank; The Violence Project: 80 Percent Of Mass Shooters Are In Crisis; NYC Mayor Appoints City's First-Ever "Rat Czar." Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired April 13, 2023 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
KEN TURKEL, ATTORNEY WHO HAS REPRESENTED HIGH-PROFILE FIGURES IN DEFAMATION CASES (via Webex by Cisco): What Dominion led with, right? The Rupert Murdoch testimony.
Jurors -- I have a great deal of faith in the jury system but they're humans, too. And even though that particular fact -- that particular aspect of the case -- i.e., what did Rupert Murdoch know when Hannity was broadcasting doesn't matter. It's not going to be in the verdict form but it's going to affect how they perceive the entity. I don't see how it couldn't. So I think Dominion has done a good job strategically of setting that up.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.
Hey, we've got to go. Yes or no -- everyone seems to think it's bad for Fox News -- is there a path to victory for Fox?
TURKEL: Dan Webb is an awful good trial lawyer, Don, but I have a hard time seeing it.
LEMON: OK.
TURKEL: Now look, I don't know the whole case but it's hard to see it on the facts that are there right now.
LEMON: All right.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: That's fascinating.
Ken, thanks.
LEMON: Thank you, sir.
TURKEL: Good seeing you all.
LEMON: Good seeing you as well.
Police are releasing the horrifying 911 calls from Monday's deadly mass shooting in Louisville. What the gunman's mother told dispatchers about her son's mental health. (COMMERCIAL)
[07:35:28]
LEMON: Welcome back to CNN THIS MORNING.
Police releasing the horrifying 911 calls from Monday's deadly mass shooting in Louisville. Five people died and eight were hurt after a gunman opened fire on his coworkers at a bank there.
The shooter's mother called 911 during the shooting saying this about her son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUNMAN'S MOTHER: I don't know what to do. I need your help. I think -- he's never hurt anyone. He's a really good kid. Please don't punish him. He's non-violent.
911 DISPATCHER: Yes.
GUNMAN'S MOTHER: He's never done anything. Please --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, police say during the massacre the gunman shot Officer Nickolas Wilt in the head.
Our Kaitlan Collins sat own with Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear yesterday. She asked him about the shooting and how Officer Wilt is doing now. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR, (D) KENTUCKY: Officer Wilt is a hero. He and Officer Galloway were able to get there really about three minutes after the first call came in. And we've lost five people thus far, including a very close friend of mine, but we would have lost more but for what those two individuals and so many more did.
Now, they rushed right in. They put their lives on the line and because of that Officer Wilt's life is still on the line. Now, he is still with us but certainly in very serious condition. We all ought to be praying over the next day, two days -- however long it takes.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and we certainly are. And, you know, that was part of that body camera footage that was released. You can see what he was doing and the other officer was -- they were the first ones to arrive on the scene.
The police department has also released today that 911 audio that they got of the many calls that people placed. One of them is from the shooter's mother who calls to say that her son's roommate has called to say he has a gun and he's headed toward the Old National Bank. Just to hear something like that -- to see the mom calling, what's that like? BESHEAR: You know, this person murdered my friend but still, I can't imagine how his parents must be feeling right now.
COLLINS: This is difficult for you to talk about, I can tell.
BESHEAR: Yes.
COLLINS: And your friend is Tommy Elliott.
BESHEAR: Tommy and I met probably 15 years ago. He was just a little older than I am now. Of all things, we met in the Capitol. My dad had just become governor and I remember we were on this chamber trip. A younger lawyer. He's a banker.
And the current -- I think it was the president of the Senate comes in and just totally blasts my dad having no idea that I'm sitting in the room. And it was --
COLLINS: That his son is sitting in the room.
BESHEAR: Yes, yes. And immediately after that, Tommy walked up and said something like, "Well, that was something."
He became my banker. I became his lawyer. He helped me build a law practice here and rented me space in that building when I ran for attorney general. I mean, he's an amazing friend.
COLLINS: You actually were the one who called his wife to let her know.
BESHEAR: She deserved to know. I came here immediately after originally getting a text and a notice in my office in Frankfort that there was a mass shooting going on, and then getting the address that it was my bank, and then getting the information that it happened in a board room that I knew several of my friends would be in. I knew it would be hours before others could call her and I thought she deserved to know. And we're real close I think right now to where I made that call.
The hardest -- I've been governor during this pandemic. I've been governor during tornadoes and floods, and negative 45-degree windchills, and everything else, and we've lost a lot of people during those. But calling your friend's wife who is also your friend to tell her that her husband is gone is amongst the hardest thing I have ever done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW: One of "the hardest thing I have ever done." It's an extraordinary interview and you're going to see the whole thing tonight with Kaitlan.
The family of the gunman also released this statement if we could pull it up. "While Connor, like many of his contemporaries, had mental health challenges which we, as a family, were actively addressing, there were never warning signs of indications that he was capable of this shocking act."
[07:40:05]
Let's talk about the mental health aspect here with James Densley. He is a criminologist and co-founder of The Violence Project. It's a nonprofit. They research and study gun violence. He's also the co- author of "The Violence Project: How to Stop A Mass Shooting Epidemic." We appreciate you being here on a morning like this. We have far too many mornings after mass shootings.
Can you stop this epidemic?
JAMES DENSLEY, CRIMINOLOGIST, CO-AUTHOR, "THE VIOLENCE PROJECT: HOW TO STOP A MASS SHOOTING EPIDEMIC" (via Webex by Cisco): Yes, I genuinely believe we can but it is going to take everybody working together to be alert to the warning signs that somebody is in a crisis. Because every single one of these mass shootings has well, two things in common really, which is number one, a firearm, and then number two, that these are really driven by despair.
So somebody who perpetrates a mass shooting has gotten to a point in life where they no longer care if they live or die because a mass shooting is always intended to be a final act. There's no really escape plan or plan for after the fact.
So we have to be looking out for amongst our loved ones are there signs that somebody is getting to that point where they no longer care if they live or die. And then in that same process are now looking to purchase firearms and maybe planning for this type of an event.
And if we can start to see those types of warning signs then absolutely, we can get ahead of these shootings. But it's -- but it's challenging because nobody who is mentally well perpetrates a mass shooting but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are mentally ill and that there are really clear precursors that sort of everybody is going to be aware of.
LEMON: OK, wait -- say that again. No one who is mentally well perpetrates these but it doesn't -- say that again.
DENSLEY: So nobody who is mentally well would perpetrate a mass shooting but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are mentally ill -- if they have a diagnosed mental illness. And we can then draw through a line to say that mental illness is the cause of this because the vast majority of people with mental illness never perpetrate this type of violence. You're more likely to be a victim of violence than you are an offender. And so we want to be really careful about not stigmatizing people.
LEMON: I agree with you 100 percent on that one because mental illness has become an easy target to blame for mass shootings. But people who have mental illness, right --
DENSLEY: Exactly.
LEMON: -- are both often the victims of crime, especially violent crime, then the perpetrator.
So -- but is it the common factor then because mental illness happens all over the world? We had this discussion when we were planning this segment. I'm not sure if this is your bailiwick but mental illness happens all over the world. The only difference is that --
DENSLEY: Yes.
LEMON: -- our access to guns in the United States.
DENSLEY: Yes. I mean, this is a commonality but also let's not forget that our mental health system is also very different to other countries as well. And so the lack of a social safety net in the United States and a lot of the reporting that you'll hear around a failing mental health system, and the lack of access and affordability is also an underlying factor here. But we can't discount the fact the United States has six to seven times its share of mass shootings per capita than what it should have and a common factor here is access to firearms.
Here's the key thing. When somebody is in a mental health crisis, when they are changing behavior from baseline and you know that baseline -- you know what this person is like and then all of a sudden you're seeing some warning signs of increased aggression or agitation, or losing touch with reality, or depression and hopelessness, that's not the time now to then be selling them a firearm.
And if you know that you've got somebody in your life that's never really expressed an interest in buying a gun or owning a gun, and then all of a sudden goes out and buys one while they've got these other challenges going, that's your big red flag.
And the other thing in our research we see as well is mass shooters study other mass shooters. They often draw inspiration from them. So that's another big warning sign. If you're purchasing weapons and also unhealthily obsessed with mass shootings that's really where we should be concerned.
LEMON: Fascinating.
HARLOW: Yes.
Thank you, James, for the work you do and for talking about this publicly. We appreciate it.
LEMON: Yes.
DENSLEY: Thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it.
LEMON: Appreciate it.
HARLOW: Also, we are talking -- and you saw part of Kaitlan's interview with a really grieving Kentucky Gov. Andy Beshear who lost one of his closest friends in the Louisville mass shooting. You can see the entire thing on cnn.com. LEMON: One of the biggest questions in some Republican circles, how can anyone beat Donald Trump in a 2024 primary? Our next guest has done the research. He has a playbook for it. None other than pollster Frank Luntz. He's here in studio to break it down.
[07:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASA HUTCHINSON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not 2016. Donald Trump is a non-quantity. He makes his message of revenge clear.
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): The field of play is focusing on President Biden's failures. What Americans want to see is the contrast between the radical left and the blueprint to ruin America, and why our policies actually work.
NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What I am saying is I don't kick sideways; I'm kicking forward. Joe Biden is the president. He's the one I'm running against.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump's a friend. I'm not running against him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So several Republicans jockeying to stand out in an already crowded field for the 2024 nomination, so how can they rise above the fray?
Pollster Frank Luntz says that he has a playbook for it. He lays it all out in his latest op-ed for The New York Times basing his strategy on his interactions with his most recent focus groups. We are glad to have him. Joining us now is pollster and communications strategist Frank Luntz.
OK, so good morning to you.
FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER, COMMUNICATIONS STRATEGIST: Good morning.
LEMON: Let's go through your playbook here starting with --
LUNTZ: Starting with humility.
LEMON: Humility.
LUNTZ: And the key here is to understand how the votes are actually cast. You can't win 40 percent if you're not Donald Trump -- 30 percent. Maybe 25 percent is your ceiling --
[07:50:04]
LEMON: OK.
LUNTZ: -- and that's OK.
The Republican primary vote -- the electorate -- is divided by winner- take-all states and states where you win the congressional districts.
LEMON: Yes.
LUNTZ: So a Republican has to come in first or second to get the lion's share of delegates. Humility says don't expect that you're going to come out of the gate very quickly. You have to do it slowly, methodically, and --
LEMON: And humble.
LUNTZ: -- and be humble.
LEMON: OK. What do you mean by do better? What does that mean?
LUNTZ: It means that you cannot support the status quo. Republican voters want significant change, they want reform. They want to drain the swamp. They want change and you have to be the change candidate, not the status quo candidate.
LEMON: So then, here -- I'm just wondering. Real people matter because I'm wondering if -- should the GOP focus on these social issues here in 2024, like -- or would that help them win over younger and more independent voters?
LUNTZ: Clearly, the governor of Florida believes so. But in our polling and in our focus groups that's not the primary issue. That's not the second issue. It's about the economy, stupid, that we've heard before, and it's about bringing about fundamental change. Real people.
LEMON: Real people.
LUNTZ: It's not endorsements of members of Congress. It's not even good coverage on the media. It's small business owners. It's ranchers, farmers, and most importantly, veterans. What do average everyday Americans think about politics. Bring them into the campaign and you're going to be successful.
Four -- and I think this is important -- you have to divide how you relate to the Trump presidency and how you relate to Donald Trump. The public will not tolerate you attacking the Trump administration, 2017 to 2021. What they will tolerate is saying to Donald Trump stop being so negative, so being so cruel, and stop attacking other Republicans.
LEMON: Yes.
LUNTZ: Fifth, the average Republican voter is pretty old. I like to say the average Republican voter is deceased. They all have grandkids and they will change their vote based on what impacts their grandchildren. And the number one issue for their grandchildren -- about the grandchildren is the debt ceiling.
LEMON: Really?
LUNTZ: Republicans have to get back at accountability and they have to get at the spending issue. This is what matters most to them.
LEMON: Because this affects, you said, military salaries, Social Security checks, hospitals, bondholders, and what have you on recession and financial crisis. That's more important to them.
LUNTZ: That's more important to them than the social issues. Stop wasteful Washington spending.
Character also matters. And we have the example of Donald Trump criticizing Barack Obama for spending so much time playing golf when Trump was on the golf course four times or five times more often at a cost of $150 million to hardworking taxpayers. They don't like that.
LEMON: Yes, but Republican voters and Donald Trump supporters never saw that. They actually believed the former president, meaning Donald Trump, that he -- that Barack Obama played more golf when it was exact opposite of reality.
LUNTZ: Absolutely. So you have to show them. You have to prove it, which is tough.
Two more. This is critical. You have to bring over Independents. You have to bring over conservatives. If this is just about the Trump vote you will lose.
And finally, you have to able --
LEMON: Get it done.
LUNTZ: -- to prove that Donald Trump made the promises but in the end he didn't deliver. You really want a wall on the southern border, you need to vote for change.
LEMON: Yes.
LUNTZ: You really want genuine accountability, you vote for change. Get it done. That's the candidate that wins.
LEMON: So that is a winning strategy?
LUNTZ: That is a winning strategy and this can take any of these opponents against -- but let me be clear.
LEMON: Yes.
LUNTZ: Donald Trump is clearly the leader right now --
LEMON: Yes.
LUNTZ: -- and if the primaries were held today Donald Trump would be the nominee.
LEMON: I was going to say that's a winning strategy for any of the candidates other than Donald Trump.
LUNTZ: That is correct. LEMON: Thank you, Frank Luntz.
LUNTZ: Thank you.
LEMON: Appreciate it -- Poppy.
HARLOW: Fascinating.
The Washington Post speaking to a friend of the man believed to have been the leaker who leaked hundreds of classified intelligence documents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a -- he was a young, charismatic man who loved nature, God. Who loved shooting guns and racing cars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: More of these details ahead.
LEMON: But first, pizza rat, your days may be numbered. New York's mayor just appointed the city's first-ever rat czar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR ERIC ADAMS, (R) NEW YORK CITY: I hate rats and rats are going to hate me -- going to hate me before it's over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:58:05]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADAMS: We have found our rat czar and she is focused on improving the quality of life of New Yorkers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You cannot make this up. Poppy is obsessed with this story.
HARLOW: I'm obsessed with this story and your interview with him, like, a month ago about the rat czar.
LEMON: Well, that was, of course, New York City Mayor Eric Adams announcing the city's first-ever rat czar. Yesterday he tapped Kathleen Corradi for the job. Corradi currently works for the city's education department where she says she's already cracked down on rat infestations in schools. Now she is aiming to e-rat-icate --
HARLOW: Ha, ha.
LEMON: -- did you get that -- eradicate the rodents from the whole city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHLEEN CORRADI, NEW YORK CITY'S RAT CZAR: Pizza rat may live in infamy but rats and the conditions that support their thriving will no longer be tolerated in New York City. As anyone who has seen the movie "Ratatouille" knows, rats love the same foods humans do. That's why every anti-rat initiative starts with making sure food-related waste gets into bins that rats can't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. Well, Mayor Adams has made the city's rat problem one of his top priorities. His job posting for the position called for somebody highly motivated and somewhat bloodthirsty. Here's what he -- the mayor told us. This was back in January.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: As an adjustment for the new year you created a rat czar position to deal with the city's rodent issues. That is -- when I asked people what should I ask the mayor -- New Yorkers -- they said rats. So, go. What do you -- what does this mean? Are you going to get rid of them or reduce the number of rats?
ADAMS: Well, you know -- well, I don't know if -- many people may not know it but I hate rats and rats are going to hate me -- going to hate me before it's over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: And now he's coming for them.
LEMON: I told you about Tim. We were walking from dinner the other day --
HARLOW: Yes.
LEMON: -- and a rat scurried out of the thing. And he was just like "ahhh!"
