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Rep. Debbie Dingell (D-MI) Interviewed on Deal Reached by White House and Congressional Republicans to Raise U.S. Debt Ceiling; Drone Attack Reaches Targets in Moscow; Two Inmates Escape from Jail in Mississippi. Aired 8-8:30a ET.

Aired May 30, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Moments ago you Republican counterpart, Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina, just said she's going to vote no. How are you going to vote on this compromise debt limit deal?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL, (D-MI): You know, I'm still undecided. We cannot not pay our bills. We cannot -- I think many of us right now are feeling -- are very angry we have been held hostage, that we find ourselves in this situation. I do not believe compromise is a dirty word. But we are still -- I spent my entire day yesterday in meetings with various White House officials and other colleagues trying to understand what the implications were.

So I am going back to the Hill today, going to meet with a lot of my colleagues and get to where we need to go. I know we have to pay our bills. That is probably the most overriding thing driving me. But as I said yesterday, there are parts of this bill that I would not vote for if they were a freestanding bill. And the whole process is not one that is the way that the government should operate. We need regular order.

HARLOW: That to me, Congresswoman, sounds like a very reluctant "yes" at this point. Am I reading that right?

DINGELL: I am not going to tell you one way or the other because I am going to keep asking questions, and if I learn anything that's very disturbing today, I will have -- I want to understand how precedent setting this bill is. How is this going to impact future bills? What are those domestic spending cuts, what are the programs really going to cut? Are seniors going to be hurt? There are some real questions that I have. So I think undecided is probably the safest place to put me.

HARLOW: OK. I thought it was telling how both Speaker McCarthy but also one of his top Republican negotiators on this, Dusty Johnson, characterized this bill over the last few days. Here's what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DUSTY JOHNSON, (R-SD): There were no wins for Democrats. There is nothing after the passage of this bill that would be more liberal or more progressive than it is today. It's a remarkable conservative accomplishment.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R-CA) HOUSE SPEAKER: Right now, the Democrats are upset. The one thing Hakeem told me, there is nothing in the bill for them. There's not one thing in the bill for Democrats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Do you agree with that assessment?

DINGELL: Look, most of the briefings that I have been in people have talked about how much worse it could have been. I don't think that's the way to talk about a bill, by the way. We are talking about life impacting of all Americans. It shouldn't be whether Democrats win or Republicans lost. This should be how do we deliver for the American people. Quite frankly, even the soundbites are beginning to bother me.

We need to get back to the days where people talked. We get to regular order. We remember that the job we have do is to protect the country that we all respect. And there are things in here that are really -- I don't know what the outcome could be down the road, especially when you talk about, when you talk about work requirements. There are seniors who are raised in the age, dependents are defined as children six or under or if you are totally incapacitated. This pandemic has caused such a crisis in senior care. There are no caregivers. Children find themselves as caregivers in a sandwich generation, and that -- so I am very worried about what is really happening there.

And I think people -- the environmental impact on this bill deeply disturbs me. And by the way, I'm going to tell you, as a mid- westerner, the things to keep being given are helping the coastals, they're helping -- I want to make sure that my Midwest and that the auto industry and transportation and mobility don't keep paying a price as people give things to one sector and ignore the Midwest. And that worries me as well.

HARLOW: Let's talk about the environmental impact on all of this and what it means for energy at large, because this proposed streamlining what was really landmark legislative accomplishment that the National Environmental Policy Act. Your husband, former Congressman John Dingell, worked for years to get this passed. You led a resolution to impose rollbacks to it this. The way this has been framed by some conservatives is that -- and in reading it, that it will streamline within one to two years approval or rejection of policies for both oil and gas, but also for clean energy projects, essentially to get them through faster. What is your reaction to what this does to that in this bill?

DINGELL: That's what I am trying to very much understand. My husband did write that bill. My husband was a very complicated man, but he loved the outdoors, and he knew the right of communities to protect the environmental impact of decisions, and to also protect our outdoors.

[08:05:09]

I have been very clear. This bill was written 50 years, it needs to be modernized. And for people who don't know me, let me be very clear. I worked for General Motors for three decades. I see both sides of this. People have focused on transmission, but I want to make sure they are not precedenting things that are going to gut this bill. That's what worries me.

HARLOW: So that's on NEPA. Just one final question as it pertain to energy and a big win for your fellow Democrat Joe Manchin. You sit on the Energy and Commerce Committee. This is a legislative win for him in terms of that Mountain Valley pipeline, which a natural gas pipeline in West Virginia that he has been pushing and pushing and pushing for. This is what he said. He said he was pleased to see McCarthy do this, and he said there is tremendous value in completing it to the domestic energy production to drive down costs across America. That's Joe Manchin. You said you see both sides of it. Do you agree with that?

DINGELL: Look, I have great respect for Joe Manchin. Joe and I are good friends. He and my husband were very good friends. So I know that that was a deal that was cut with White House last year. But what I want to make sure that in giving this deal to Joe Manchin I have repeatedly offered amendments in committee trying to make sure we protect judicial review. That's been a bedrock of environmental policy. Do we need to cut the time? Yes, no question. But we can't take away people's ability to protect the environmental impact, too, and the subjectivity of what it is, protecting human and environmental impacts. So I have a lot of questions.

HARLOW: Yes. And to people who don't know, that legislation written by your husband, NEPA, allowed people to bring these concerns about these energy projects through the court process in a way that proved more productive and successful for them. Congresswoman, thank you very much. And it sounds like you have a lot of questions that you still need answers to before you vote.

DINGELL: I'll be working it today because we have to get this done. That is the one thing I know, we have to pay our bills.

HARLOW: Thank you. We appreciate it. Come back soon.

DINGELL: Thank you.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, the Russian capital getting a firsthand sense of war after an alleged drone attack. So you see a plume of smoke there in the center of your screen rising, and you can actually see in this next video, you see a drone flying over the city, you will see in just a moment, see this man there point it out as he looks at it out of his window. There is also video posted of what appears to be a fragment of a downed drone. Russian state medias says two people were injured in Moscow and three residential buildings were damaged in the attack. Russian military officials are blaming Ukraine for the attack, something Ukraine denies.

HARLOW: We should note, that attack came just hours after another aerial assault on Kyiv. Ukrainian officials say one woman was killed, 13 others were injured. There have been 17 attacks on Kyiv so far this month ahead of the planned counteroffensive. And officials just released this body camera video, listen to that, of police responding to one of the attacks. A real time look at the daily reality of war as officers help injured civilians.

Joining us now from CNN, former CNN Moscow bureau chief Jill Dougherty. She's an adjunct professor at Georgetown University. Good morning, Jill. I'm glad you could join us last minute this morning. Just to get your reaction to this continued bombardment on Kyiv, and then also what we saw take place in Moscow.

JILL DOUGHERTY, FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, I think what happened in Moscow is really significant. There have been attacks by apparently Ukrainians over the border close to Ukraine. But this is Moscow. This is a big deal. Moscow is protected by very serious air defenses, and they say, the Russian officials say that these drones were shot down. But just the mere fact, remember a month ago we had that drone, two drones that went over the Kremlin. And the Kremlin in the beginning wasn't quite sure how to deal with it. Kind of the same thing here. They haven't really been able to deal, I would say, in a propaganda way with what's happening.

And if you look at the drones, the damage militarily is not really great. But the propaganda value really is. So you have the dilemma by Putin. You could say he has to admit that the war is expanding and that it's hitting the Russian capital. That's very bad for him politically. On the other hand, I think what you're going to see is the Kremlin trying to spin this, that the war, now we have unite. This is existential. This is for the survival of Russia, et cetera. They will it to try to get the Russian people united. But I think it's really a very disturbing thing for Putin. It's a real problem for him.

HILL: So they will try to spin that into some other propaganda. I found it interesting, our senior military analyst Colonel Cedric Leighton said this morning very clearly, he said this is a warning to the Russian people. How do you think the Russian people are taking it today?

[08:10:07]

DOUGHERTY: I have been on social media, of course, trying to figure out what they are thinking. It's kind of hard to say. But I think there is an element of shock, there is no question, that drones have actually now, not just symbolically gone over the Kremlin, but now they're hitting neighbors. And I looked at a map of where those drones hit. So they are in the city and then outside, and they are in areas kind of west of Moscow where you have a lot of elite housing, the president lives out in that area.

So this is -- this is really significant, even if, again, the damage is minimal, but the psychological damage, I think, is quite strong.

HILL: Jill Dougherty, thank you very much. Appreciate you.

This morning, a manhunt is underway after two inmates escaped from a Mississippi jail. This happened yesterday morning. Police say Michael Lewis has been captured but they are still looking for Joseph Spring. Officials believe they got out through an air duct. And it comes after four men escaped the same jail just over a month ago. Isabel Rosales joins us now. Good morning. What do we know?

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Poppy. The sheriff, Tyree Jones, of Hinds County, says that this facility has been plagued with issues really since its inception. It's 30 years old. He says it's poorly built. He's also blaming poor staffing for these multiple jail breaks, saying that these issues need to be addressed even as they are currently working to build a new facility.

So on Monday morning there was a deputy patrolling the outside area, and he discovered a fence that was damaged, some items, and then blood. So they conducted a certified head count. And that is where they found Michael Lewis and Joseph Spring to be missing. They also found a breach in the ceiling area of the recreation room and believe that these inmates escaped through an air duct that led outside. They jumped a fence and then they got away. Here's the sheriff on this latest escape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF TYREE JONES, HINDS COUNTY, MISSISSIPPI: Once again, I know I apologized before. Here we are once again that I'm apologizing to the people of Hinds County regarding what I would consider another public safety breach in our facility.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROSALES: Right. And now Spring has been at the facility since November on parole and probation violations related to a burglary charge. He also has got a few holds on him from other agencies. The sheriff does not know where Spring is or where he is headed or if he is armed, but he should be considered armed and dangerous. They believe that he is on foot because there's no reports of any stolen vehicles nearby, and was last seen, Poppy, wearing a red jumpsuit.

HARLOW: Isabel Rosales, we'll follow it. Thank you.

HILL: Florida Governor Ron DeSantis will be in Iowa today where he is kickstarting a multistep four-day tour as he winds up to take on Donald Trump. Our political panel weighs in.

HARLOW: And Ralph Yarl, the Kansas City teenager who was shot in the head when he mistakenly just rang the wrong doorbell, just made his first major public appearance. We have an update for you on his recovery.

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[08:15:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): Everyone knows if I'm the nominee, I will beat Biden, and I will serve two terms. And I will be able to destroy leftism in this country and leave woke ideology on the dustbin of history. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Quite a promise there. A bold prediction from Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. He is heading to Iowa today to relaunch his campaign after that glitchy Twitter launch, the stops there and another early primary states this week are an opportunity, right? To chip away a former President Trump's lead in the polls. And an opportunity to try to distance himself from both the former president but also a growing GOP field. Let's talk more about all of this CNN Political Commentator and former White House Communications Director in the Trump administration Alyssa Farah Griffin is here. And CNN Political Analyst and National Politics reporter at The New York Times Astead Herndon. Good morning, guys.

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning.

HARLOW: So, it's interesting just over the weekend, how much we saw Ron DeSantis trying to say I am not Trump. I am not just a sort of less loud trumpet, I'm actually different on policy.

GRIFFIN: Yes. And he took -- he took aim specifically at the first step Act.

HARLOW: Yes.

GRIFFIN: Which was one of the most bipartisan accomplishments of the Trump administration. And an interesting move, I mean, he is mapping out a campaign that in many ways is to the right of Donald Trump. He's re litigating COVID, saying Donald Trump should have done less. It should have been less restrictive and had less closures, you know, repealing the first step act, among other things.

HARLOW: Yes, but DeSantis voted for the first version of the first step back when he was in Congress.

GRIFFIN: He was a very different man when he was in Congress. I'm also a strong supporter of aid to Ukraine, then. I think that what the DeSantis team is trying to figure out now is a how to differentiate themselves from Donald Trump. But in a way that can break through and frankly, the answer that tends to be writing to the furthest right. However, you do have to worry about the fact that this will eventually become a general election and some of the positions he's taking are radioactive to a general election audience.

HERNDON: Yes. And the initial conceit for his campaign was kind of electability driven. The idea that he could be the person who could do unlike Donald Trump are really bringing a coalition of people what he has done over the last couple of months is really shift that. So, Ron, so ideologically, to the right, to try to make Donald Trump look inconsistent with the values that he made popular. And that's a different strategy than I think that DeSantis version we saw coming out of the midterms. It's really putting meat on the bones to really why -- the why of his campaign. But that's a different type of why that I think a lot of the donors and a lot of people were coming to him initially. He's really switched up with the DeSantis brand, would be as he's getting closer to the primary.

GRIFFIN: And to put a finer point on that is he didn't win what the numbers he did in Miami-Dade because he was running anti-LGBTQ and very far right policies. It was a strong economy in Florida, a low tax policy, a good business environment. And that's all kind of being chipped away at.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: So, it's so interesting and I feel like we've talked about this so much, and we're going to continue to talk about it as we're leading into the primary. We know that is a lot different than when we get to a general election.

HERNDON: Yes.

HILL: But what's fascinating is, as we see and hear from some of these other more moderate Republicans, Chris Sununu, just on Sunday, was pointing out to Jake Tapper. OK, the culture wars are fine, but if that's your top priority, that's a problem. Because there's so many other issues, whether it be the economy, whether it being fiscal responsibility that the party seems to have lost sight of. I guess the question is at this point, is there room for that within the scope?

HERNDON: Yes.

HILL: Right? Within the scope of the Republican Party at this point.

HERNDON: That's the key question because for a lot of people it's wish casting, they wish the economy was the top priority for voters they wish that they were really making those priorities. But in Donald Trump's version of the Republican Party, it's not necessarily wokeness that has been the kind of cohesive ideology. But it has been a grievance, it has been a kind of retribution, it has been a being an enemy to the enemies. And that has been really what's drawn people toward him. The problem for DeSantis is as he's running in that, are you outgrievancing (PH) Donald Trump?

[08:20:22]

HARLOW: Outgrievancing.

HERNDON: It's the question.

(CROSSTALK)

HERNDON: And that's really what he's trying to do here. He's trying to get people to say, OK, if you're looking for a kind of way to thumb your nose, at your -- at your enemies. I'm the guy, not Donald Trump. That's a different kind of calculation, that I think we've seen before. But it's a reality that in this version of the Republican Party, that is the bind that's holding things together. There is not really evidence that there's room for that economic driven message that we've seen Sununu, that we've seen the other moderate Republicans taking the onus. I think is on them to really prove that there is an electorate for those ideas, rather than it is on the other folks.

GRIFFIN: Well, that's an important point you raised because we talk in primary seasons about base voters. And what we forget about is that any registered Republican who you can convince to turnout in a primary is a primary voter is a base voter. So, what DeSantis is doing is catering to the most traditional right, furthest right lane in a primary. But there are a lot of voters who could be activated in early primary states, who often wait to vote Republican till the general. That's the lane that Chris Sununu would need to take, turn out voters who don't generally turn out in a primary, but are able to vote in a Republican manner and that's the economy is where the messages.

HARLOW: We've heard him, say on CNN on Sunday morning, Governor Sununu, that he's going to decide in the next week or two.

HERNDON: Yes.

HARLOW: If he's running for president or not. He said the hardest challenge, you know, he's already got the family on board. So, he just has to make the decision. He sounds more likely than not. I think to jump in from just listening to his interviews. But interesting, Governor Hampshire, Ron DeSantis, is going to go to New Hampshire this week. How does he play in a state like New Hampshire?

HERNDON: I mean, Ron DeSantis, has made a kind of early state strategy, even at this point, you know, usually this is a time of national consensus building, a kind of national narrative. They've already been pointing to the amount of organizers that the Super PAC in early states that now of kind of he thinks he can turn out evangelicals and those early states. But New Hampshire, I think, is a unique place, you know, the size of it really forces those individual questions. Those voters in New Hampshire, those feel like they deserve, those kinds of individual interactions with candidates.

HARLOW: Yes.

HERNDON: And that has not necessarily been Ron DeSantis strong suit, right? And so, I think when he goes to a place like Iowa and New Hampshire, we're really going to see a test of his individual retail politics and getting off of those, I think talking points. Because he's really built his brand in the safe space of conservative politics. And that is not how Iowa, New Hampshire operate. They're going to push Governor DeSantis.

HILL: Is there a sense of how much the campaign has been trying to prepare him for these moments? Because we've all been talking about it a lot. But I guess the question is, is that message getting through to Ron DeSantis?

GRIFFIN: I think they're trying, I think we saw an Iowa shortly before his official launch, where there was a little more interacting with voters and diners. But on New Hampshire, the whole state of New Hampshire is the size of some congressional (INAUDIBLE).

HERNDON: Exactly, right.

GRIFFIN: You can actually physically shake almost every hand in that state. HERNDON: Yes.

GRIFFIN: Those are the people who tend to win that state. So, I think that's going to be a challenge. I think there's a very Iowa centric strategy for the DeSantis team. And that is a state where the cultural issues, the life issue, the anti-LGBTQ issues are going to play very well. I think it gets a little bit harder as you get to the later primary state.

HERNDON: Absolutely, that abortion question specifically has been something that DeSantis has tried to push in Iowa because he knows there's that evangelical base there.

HARLOW: Yes.

HERNDON: That may be soft for Donald Trump.

GRIFFIN: And I spoke to Governor Chris Sununu last week, and he said that any Republican talking about a national abortion ban is hurting the party and it is a losing strategy. So, that's an interesting juxtaposition.

HARLOW: Thank you, both so much, Astead, Alyssa, good to have you. All right, more travelers pass through airports this Memorial Day weekend than even before the pandemic. We have new data just released by the TSA.

HILL: And Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes reporting to present it today for her 11-year sentence. So, what will life behind bars look like for her? That's ahead.

HARLOW: It was my favorite segment. You guys bring such good energy. I really appreciate it.

[08:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back to CNN this morning. Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes must report to prison today. The tech entrepreneur is set to surrender to federal facility in Texas. In November, a judge sentenced her to more than 11 years behind bars for fraud and conspiracy. She raised millions of dollars from investors while making false claims about her health care startup. Our Rosa Flores has been following this and she joins us outside of the federal prison in Bryan Texas. Good morning, Rosa.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Poppy. According to the court order, Elizabeth Holmes is to report to the Federal facility that you see behind me no later than 2:00 p.m. today. Now, it's unclear if she has read the inmate handbook but all 82 pages are available online. And those are the rules and regulations that you will have to abide by for the next 11 years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH HOLMES, FOUNDER THERANOS: I believe the individual is the answer to the challenges of health care.

FLORES (voiceover): Elizabeth Holmes, the disgraced founder of Theranos is set to trade in her trademark black turtlenecks for a prison jumpsuit, after multiple failed appeals to keep her out of prison. Holmes, now a mother of two, is set to report to the Federal prison camp in Bryan Texas today. The minimum-security women's prison is approximately 100 miles from Houston, Texas and houses more than 600 inmates. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

HOLMES: The rate to protect the health and well-being of every person, of those we love is a basic human right.

FLORES (voiceover): Holmes was only 19 years old when she dropped out of Stanford University to pursue her startup Theranos full time. Once valued at $9 billion at its peak. Theranos attracted an impressive list of investors and retail partners with claims that it had developed.