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Former President Donald Trump To Be Arraigned Today On 37 Criminal Charges; Denver Nuggets Win First NBA Title; NATO Chief Jens Stoltenberg Joins CNN This Morning. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired June 13, 2023 - 07:30   ET



POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us this morning, former Republican governor of Maryland, Larry Hogan. Governor, good morning and thank you for joining us.

Let's begin with the words --

FMR. GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R-MD): Good morning.

HARLOW: -- of Trump's former attorney general Bill Barr, who said he had no right to maintain them or retain them -- talking about these documents. And he said, "And he kept them in a way in Mar-a-Lago that anyone who really cares about national security -- their stomach would churn at it."

Do you see it the same way that Bill Barr sees it?

HOGAN: Well, I do, and I was really proud of Bill Barr for coming out and saying that. And I appreciate my friend Chris Christie going after him directly last night.

Look, these are very serious charges with very sensitive material that he was hiding in his spare bathroom and in a ballroom. These are not just frivolous charges and it bothers me that some of our Republican leaders are willing to -- you know, not even willing to take a look at the evidence.

Obviously, everybody's innocent until proven guilty but no man is above the law -- not even the President of the United States or the former President of the United States, and we've got to get to the facts.

And just this being dismissive -- look, they have a -- I understand Republicans being concerned that we're not -- that we're not being balanced in our prosecutions and they can argue about the weaponization of the Justice Department, but we've got to at least take a look at these facts because it's very, very serious and concerning and it deals with national security.

HARLOW: A point of fact there is that another special counsel is still probing the Biden documents, so that is still ongoing.

HOGAN: Yes. HARLOW: You just said everyone in America is innocent until proven guilty. Do you then disagree with Republican presidential candidate Asa Hutchinson who says even this probe, at this point, is disqualifying for President Trump? That he should get out of the race?

HOGAN: Well, I do think he's innocent until proven guilty. I've been the leading proponent on that I don't think he should be the nominee. I don't think --

HARLOW: Right.

HOGAN: -- he should be running for reelection. And I'm happy to see Asa Hutchinson and Chris Christie starting to say the things that I've been saying for years, even before this investigation.

But we've got to get to the facts. Obviously, it's very difficult for somebody to be a candidate for president and deal with 37 counts -- multiple indictments in multiple places and potentially, others while trying to campaign. I mean, it's just not what we want to see. It's not how we get back to winning again.

HARLOW: One thing I've been really struck by is the response in the past few days of Republican voters. I mean, when you look at the ABC poll and the CBS poll they say the same thing -- that many Republican voters just simply don't care. This doesn't change their opinion. In fact, in one of those polls, it -- 14 percent of Republican primary voters said it may improve their opinion -- the indictment. May improve their --


HARLOW: -- opinion and their view of Donald Trump.

You're about to exhale a big sigh, I can see. And I'm wondering what that tells you about the state of your party.

HOGAN: Well, I'm very concerned about it. And look, I think that's why it's so important -- I thought it was important that the -- this indictment was really detailed and provided a lot of information because I think they were concerned about looking as if there was political going after the leading Republican presidential candidate in the middle of an election is -- people -- all this -- the messaging about the weaponization of the Justice Department, it's unfair, it's people just coming after Donald Trump. It's been effective messaging.

And while I don't understand why so many people continue to ignore the facts -- and it does concern me. Look, there's no question Donald Trump could go up in the polls as a result of this just like he did in the -- after the last indictments in New York, and it's very troubling.

HARLOW: We've seen you tweet out support of a number of Republicans who have announced that they are running for president. You obviously took yourself out of -- out of this weeks ago. Many people expected you to run as well.


HARLOW: But then you also wrote in your March New York Times op-ed warning of a quote "multi-car pileup that could potentially help Mr. Trump recapture the nomination."

Is that what we're looking at here as more and more jump in a multi- car pileup and Trump gets repelled to the nomination no matter where this case goes?

HOGAN: It doesn't sound like too many people followed my advice. I mean, I did not want to be a part of that. There were a bunch of us that were sort of all within the margin of error tied in single digits and Trump at 50 percent. And I thought it was much better to try to coalesce around a couple of strong candidates and figure out who is the best one to challenge him.

But having 12 candidates, it really is -- it seems to me that we're heading toward another repeat of 2016. And, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

HARLOW: Does any of this make you wish you hadn't said you wouldn't run?


HOGAN: Well, no. I -- actually, I think I made the right decision for exactly that reason. I don't think -- it's very difficult for somebody that's in single digits to get traction -- to get the attention when there's the Trump circus going on and it's the only thing that the media is talking about. It's the only thing that Republican primary voters are focused on.

And I'm hopeful that one of my friends -- I do -- you know, we have five people that I served with -- governors or former governors running in the race, including Mike Pence and Nikki Haley who were governors before their most recent jobs. I think there's some great people with a lot of -- a lot of abilities -- Chris Christie, Asa Hutchinson, Doug Burgum. They're all friends and they all have talents. But I just -- I'm afraid that they're going to get -- they're going to have a hard time getting traction.

HARLOW: Former governor Larry Hogan, I really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

HOGAN: Thank you.


PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the former president continues his calls to investigate President Biden and his family. What the ex- president said in a radio interview ahead of today's arraignment.

Plus, this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NBA ANNOUNCER: It's over. At last, the long wait is over. After 47 years, the Denver Nuggets can finally call themselves NBA champions.


MATTINGLY: Why was Poppy texting me at 2:00 a.m. this morning? Because of this. The Denver Nuggets have won their first NBA title in franchise history. They beat the Heat 94-89 dominating the series 4-1.

And here is the final's MVP Nikola Jokic.


NIKOLA JOKIC, NBA FINAL MVP: If you want to be a success you need a couple of years. You need to -- you need to be bad, and then you -- we do good, and then you need to figure -- then you need to -- when you're good you need to fail, and then when you fail you're going to figure it out.





ROGER STONE, HOST, "THE ROGER STONE SHOW": Is there any circumstances under which you could see yourself dropping out of the 2024 presidential election?



MATTINGLY: Not dropping out. And the former president says that if he wins in 2024 he will appoint a special counsel to investigate President Biden and his family.


TRUMP: And now we can do it because now the box has been opened. It's the Pandora's box and it's been opened -- and it's been wide-opened. So I'm allowed to do that.


MATTINGLY: Let's bring back in our panel. And I think the framing of this is entirely political. There is no basis beyond the politics of a special counsel that was appointed by an attorney general to have separation from politics.

I also think the way the document is framed and the charges within them get to the idea of trying to separate any politics from this. The basis of the documents themselves both have a legal purpose but also I think get at some of the allegations to some degree that have been made about the president.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, I think that that's right. When you look at the documents that they lay out in this indictment they sort of list these 31 classified documents here.

And I think what prosecutors want to do is they want to be able to demonstrate the severity of the information -- the national defense information that Donald Trump took. To be able to at least show to the jury look, when you look at these documents you're going to see why they shouldn't have just been laying around in a bathroom at Mar-a- Lago.

But there are also a lot of different agencies who have an interest in this. We saw this big list in the indictment of all of the different agencies who have some kind of interest in the intelligence that was collected. So they have to go through with these agencies and essentially whittle down what are the documents that we feel comfortable listing in these indictments? What documents will we feel comfortable sharing with the jury? And that's a hard conclusion to reach.

Again, you don't want to do more than you have to do because these could still contain sensitive information that these agencies don't want to be made public even to the jury pool. But you want enough that a jury looks at it and thinks wow, this is bad.

HARLOW: Laura, we've already seen attacks on the special counsel Jack Smith. I assume that they will continue and perhaps gain more momentum. Jack Smith has gone after -- gone after -- prosecuted and led teams that have prosecuted Democrats --


HARLOW: -- and Republicans in office.

COATES: Oh, yes.

HARLOW: John Edwards, et cetera.

COATES: Bob Menendez -- Sen. Bob Menendez --


COATES: -- you know, the former governor of Virginia as well.


COATES: Oh, international war criminals at the Hague. I mean, this is somebody who is known to understand the optics of things.

I don't think he's going to take the bait though because, of course, the rare reason he is here is not just to avoid a hint of a propriety but because Gen. Marlin -- excuse me, Merrick Garland -- he serves at the pleasure of the President of the United States. Before this even indictment came down it was thought that hey, listen -- this is going to be the attorney general going after the main competitor of President Biden.

Now, Trump can pretend to have had an epiphany that this -- oh, this might be the circumstances now, but that was the whole contemplated reason to have Jack Smith there.

I think staying out of the limelight, having the indictment speak for itself, having the eventual report come out as well is going to be very key.

Also, not just reputation-wise but because you've got a jury pool to consider here. Everyone in Florida, right now, likely is going to know about this case. It's not going to be a situation where you say I've never heard of it. Has the former president been ever even charged? It will be can I believe that I can be impartial here?

And I want to just say while we're talking about a presumption of innocence, that's so important, but a presumption of innocence does not mean a presumption of corruption at the Department of Justice. They've got to prove their case. There's a burden of proof. But we cannot assume by virtue of the fact that this is a political figure being charged that it means that politics was at play.


MATTINGLY: Actually, for both of you guys, given what we've seen in terms of the public rhetoric -- behind the scenes we've asking you both about this -- there's local, there's state, there's federal kind of all involved in this. How does that play out on a day like today?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, what you're seeing at the courthouse -- and we've heard Shimon Prokupecz reporting on this yesterday and overnight -- is some tension is developing over whether the courthouse should be locked down and surrounded by metal barriers because they expect crowds and demonstrators. And the Secret Service always like that model because they don't like crowds that aren't contained when they have a protectee.


And then you have the Miami police saying this is our city, these are our people. We do major events all the time. We have a feel for this and we're doing it the way that we think is the right way to do it.

So it's interesting seeing those tensions in the background.

Now, there is nothing in this universe that isn't touched by politics. So we have to take a step back and say you've got Florida, which is -- has a lot of Trump support here, which is why they're going to get the crowd that they didn't get in New York theoretically. You've got a Republican mayor of the city of Miami who is very active in politics. You've got a Republican governor of the state.

So there may be an idea that a) in the judgment of Miami P.D., Trump supporters are not a threat to Donald Trump. There also may be an idea that we don't want to over-police this event because it will look political.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and then even beyond what's happening there at the ground we know that across the country the FBI -- they're working their informant networks for any domestic terrorism threats.

You know, as closed off and insulated as these groups think that they are, many of them are infiltrated by the FBI, and that has often led to infighting. It's led to paranoia, consternation among these groups. By the way, the FBI doesn't mind that one bit -- the infighting with these groups. But they're looking for these threats.

I think what concerns me looking today, two things. First, the unknown, right? Any time you have a situation that can be volatile what could happen, right?

But secondly, we still don't know if there's going to be this co- mingling of the pro-Trump supporters and the anti-Trump supporters. In so many protests we've covered they'll have some standoff that will set them apart. They can scream at each other if they want. But when you have them mixing it up we know that all it takes is one or two people to incite others and then you're down a very dangerous road potentially.

So, certainly, something that we'll be watching in law enforcement as well.

MATTINGLY: Yes, most definitely.

All right, guys, stick around and stay with us. Our coverage of Trump's historic arraignment continues.

Also, the NATO chief meeting with President Biden today. Outgoing Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg will join us live ahead of that meeting. That's coming up next.



MATTINGLY: Overnight in central Ukraine, Russia launched several precision missile attacks into Kryvyi Rih, killing at least 11 people and injuring 28 in several areas, including a multi-story residential building. Ukrainian officials say Moscow was targeting civilian areas.

Now, as fighting intensifies along the eastern and southern fronts, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is reporting more gains on the ground.


VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): The battles are fierce but our movement is underway and that is crucial. The enemy's losses are exactly what we need.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTINGLY: Meantime, Russia claims to be holding the line in most areas.

HARLOW: Right now, NATO's biggest ever defense exercise is underway in Germany. The drills include 10,000 personnel representing 25 nations. Officials with the alliance say this sends a quote "clear message that NATO is ready to defend every inch of allied territory."

President Biden will also, by the way, today, host NATO Secretary Jens Stoltenberg at the White House.

And we are happy that he can join us now. Mr. Secretary-General, thank you for your time this morning. And we'll get to those drills in just a moment, but if we could begin with the situation in Ukraine.

As we speak, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's chief diplomatic adviser told CNN just yesterday that quote "The ultimate goal of the counteroffensive campaign is to win back all of the territories, including Crimea."

Do you believe that it's feasible?

JENS STOLTENBERG, SECRETARY-GENERAL, NATO: Well, Ukraine's goal is to defend their own territory, and the right of self-defense is enshrined in the U.N. charter, and they have the right to liberate their own land. And NATO allies aren't a part of the conflict, but we help them with upholding the right of self-defense.

And I think that this offensive, which is difficult and -- and -- (INAUDIBLE) it's still early days. But, of course, the more land they gain, the more likely it is that President Putin will understand that he has to sit down at the negotiating table and agree to just enduring peace in Ukraine.

MATTINGLY: So there's plenty on your agenda with President Biden today, but I think one of the most pressing items in talking to U.S. officials and European diplomats as well is trying to figure out who will take your position when you depart. You have been extended.

Do you believe that decision will be made -- and it's a collective decision -- sometime in the very near future?

STOLTENBERG: I have responsibility for almost all decisions in NATO except for one, and that is how to select my successor. My main focus -- that's for the 31 allies to decide. I'm actually confident that they will find an excellent successor.

My focus now is to lead this alliance until my tenure ends, because we are in the middle of -- we're in the middle of a war in Europe and we need to support Ukraine, and we need to also ensure that the war doesn't escalate beyond Ukraine and becomes a full-fledged war in Europe. And this is why it is so important to have (INAUDIBLE), especially in the Eastern part of the alliance.

HARLOW: We mentioned before bringing you in these really huge drills and NATO exercises that are going on today. Notably, Sweden is involved in those but Sweden's ascension to NATO has consistently been blocked by Turkey. But you have consistently said that you believe that some of the changes that they've made in their laws to sort of assuage the concerns of Turkey will mean that they will be admitted.

Have you had any indication from President Erdogan, since being elected, that his position and posture on Sweden has changed?

STOLTENBERG: I feel confident that Sweden will become a full member of the alliance. And they have come a long way because last year, all allies and also President Erdogan decided to invite Sweden to become a member. And by giving them what we call the invitee status, Sweden is not already sitting at the NATO table integrating more and more into NATO military and civilian structures. What remains is the last bit -- the formal ratification by all allies of Sweden.


I met with Erdogan a few days ago and we agreed to convene what we call a permanent mechanism. They are meeting actually this week in Ankara to address the outstanding issues and to do what we can to have Sweden as a full member as soon as possible.

MATTINGLY: So is it your view that Turkey is what needs to give here -- or the Turkish government, not Sweden. Sweden doesn't need to do anything more than they've already done. This is something that President Erdogan and his team need to shift on.

STOLTENBERG: So my message has been for several months, also in Ankara, that Sweden has delivered on their commitments they made at the NATO summit last year in Madrid. They have lifted all restrictions on arms exports to Turkey here and they have stepped up their efforts to work together with Turkey to fight terrorism. And they have amended their constitutions and also strengthened anti-(INAUDIBLE) laws. But, of course, we welcome that we see more activities based on these changes.

So just this week, a new decision to extradite a person connected to PKK -- and that proves that Sweden is delivering and it also shows that Sweden is ready to be fully ratified as a member.

MATTINGLY: All right, Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg. As always, sir, thank you so much.

HARLOW: Our coverage of Donald --


HARLOW: -- our coverage of Donald Trump's arraignment in Miami today continues. Our crews are standing by at the federal courthouse there as officials prepare for a crowd of Trump supporters. Stay with us.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SHIMON PROKUPECZ, SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: There is a lot of concern that people may try to storm the building or try to enter some of that area. I mean, are you going to harden that area?

CHIEF MANNY MORALES, MIAMI POLICE: Well, what I can tell you (INAUDIBLE) out of reach to you, and tell them that there's no reason to fear.


HARLOW: Good morning, everyone. It is a really significant day -- a historic day -- it truly is -- in Miami. We have a lot ahead. Today, Donald Trump getting ready to surrender and face federal charges for allegedly keeping classified documents at Mar-a-Lago and hiding them from the FBI.

MATTINGLY: Police have ramped up security as violent rhetoric swirls online. We'll speak to the police chief in Doral. Trump is currently staying at his resort there and is preparing to head to the courthouse.

HARLOW: We are now learning the former president is searching for another attorney in Florida to beef up his legal team, and he's pushing for an aggressive approach.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.