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Rep. Byron Donalds is Interviewed about Trump; U.S. Inflation Cooled Significantly; Christie Takes Aim at Donald Trump; Political Divide over FBI and DOJ. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired June 13, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

REP. BYRON DONALDS (R-FL): And that is why the American people look at this, they think is disgusting. And I think it's a two-tier justice system simply to go after President Trump.

MATTINGLY: Look, your view, and I think the view that reflects what I think Scott Jennings, who's been on our panel, has made clear, a lot of Republicans feel, based on what they've seen, I think these are very different considering --

DONALDS: Oh, no, no, no, not -- not feel.

MATTINGLY: No, no, no - no, no, no.

DONALDS: No, no, no, it's not feel -- understand this, it is not feel. That is a fact.

MATTINGLY: Based on what? Let's dig into that then. So tell me, based on this indictment here -

DONALDS: Hillary Clinton's documents, her emails, were subpoenaed. They were subpoenaed by the Oversight Committee. She destroyed them. Joe Biden took classified document material as a United States senator. I'm a United States congressman, I am not allowed to remove classified documents. He took them as a United States senator. They were all over the place. That is a violation, actually, of the Espionage Act. And so there's been no talk, no dissemination, no investigation of any of those things -

MATTINGLY: So, here's what I don't understand, though.

DONALDS: Yet Jack Smith moves at warp speed against Donald Trump.

MATTINGLY: And I don't mean to - I don't mean to interrupt you. I just want to -

DONALDS: So, I don't feel anything. Those are the facts.

MATTINGLY: No, I don't want to interrupt you, I just - there is a special counsel investigation into the current president and his handling of documents. I think the -- if you want to look at the differences from what we know right now, and you've made this point in the past and it's fair, we don't really know what's going on with Robert Hur, the special counsel's investigation, but we do know that the president -- the current president appeared to have voluntarily turned over documents, which I think is a pretty stark difference in this case specifically.

But I also think, when you mention the Clinton case, the president is literally quoted in this indictment saying that he appreciated that the lawyer -- Hillary Clinton's lawyer deleted the 30,000 emails or made an effort to and that she didn't get in any trouble because he said that and he was the one who deleted them and basically said that that was a good thing and that was helpful to some degree.

DONALDS: Look, let me - let me respond to that in this way. You have a situation here where now it's apparently this audio that's being talked about that, frankly, this audio transcript, let me say this, that's being leaked from the Department of Justice. That's not being leaked from anybody else. And, by the way, last time I checked, leaking information in a criminal probe, that is also a violation of the law. So that stuff is being leaked to the press. CNN, you guys picked it up first, and it's gone on from there. I don't know the context of that audio. And even in this conversation, I don't know the context of that because an indictment is a one-sided argument. That is all it is. And that's why you actually have full -- a full proceeding in front of a judge where a defense counsel gets to go back and forth.

I think from a political perspective, the way a lot of Republicans and, frankly, a lot of Americans are looking at this is, they basically say, well damn, if you're Donald Trump, they're going to come get you for anything. But if you're Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden, they're going to investigate very, very slowly, and let's see where it actually ends up. That is not good for the United States of America.

MATTINGLY: Congressman, I appreciate the perspective. And it's a very important one, that the defense has not laid out their response to this yet in detail or in court, and they certainly will have that opportunity.

Congressman Byron Donalds, from Florida, thanks so much, sir.

DONALDS: Thank you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: OK, let's bring in in our experts as well. That was a really important interview and conversation.

Laura, just, what do - what do you want to respond to first?

LAURA COATS, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, number one, there is no grace period. I've heard this argument before about the Presidential Records Act or that a president has time to sort of go through all the paperwork and decide what they want to turn in. When the clock strikes midnight, it turns back into a pumpkin. You're supposed to deal with that before you leave often, and with good reason. You have a transition period.

Number two, the Department of Justice has assigned the role of this prosecution to the special counsel. They don't have to go back to the White House Council or any conversation with President Biden's office or the White House Counsel on this - in this issue to decide what to do next. That would essentially be saying and confirming that this, in fact, was some political probe. Jack Smith's entire role is to make sure that there is not just a ten foot pole, but a really long pole and total separation from what they're doing. Now, that perception is very king (ph), though, and I know, perception really much is king.

But, finally, when you're talking about this, you really have to grapple with what this prosecution team has to confront, and that is there is the indictment, there is the singular focus of what the allegations are with respect to Donald Trump, but Hillary Clinton will be a part of this conversation. You'll have Joe Biden as a part of the conversation. Mike Pence as a part of the conversation. The distinction will have to be, what was the reaction and behavior of those different entities when they were told specifically, in no uncertain terms, under the law or otherwise, you are not authorized to have these documents, we want them back. Who doubled down and who chose not to and what impact should that have?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The only thing I can say, if you're a U.S. congressperson and the argument you're making is, there are top-secret documents that are hidden in a bathroom but it's a bathroom that's hard to get into, you're really far down the rabbit hole here, guys. He - there used to be - there's some kind of invasion of the body snatchers happening here.

[08:35:05]

Republicans used to care about national security. You had a Republican congressperson, who doesn't care about U.S. service people possibly being put in harm's way, doesn't care that methods and means and forces might be jeopardized. Doesn't care. Is just going to defend Donald Trump no matter what he does and that, I think, is the problem that we have. Everything that he said avoided the fundamental fact that he would not, as a congressperson, keep top-secret documents in his restroom no matter who was guarding the restroom and he knows that. This is what we're dealing with.

MATTINGLY: Scott, you got notes and I can see you nodding at certain points during -- out of the corner of my eye.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

MATTINGLY: What was your takeaway?

JENNINGS: You know, I think Congressman Donalds is making one of the more coherent pushback that you would hear from Republicans. I've seen a lot of people on TV. I think he pretty well captured the Republican zeitgeist right now.

And there's a different between legal exoneration and political exoneration. And what he is doing is prosecuting the public case for a political exoneration. You're hearing the concerns about Jack Smith. It's absolutely true on the Bob McDonald case. And a lot of Republicans have been mad about that case for a long time. Number two, he talked about the fact that there's no trust with a one-

sided argument. I mean you're -- if you talk to the average Republican right now, if you said, hey, the Justice Department says this or the FBI says that, immediately they're going to say, oh, well, consider - consider the source. There's just no trust. And when he is saying there's a one-sided argument and you don't know everything that Donald Trump might say, that's going to give a lot of Republicans something to hang their hat on.

Now, why is that important? Because it may be forever before - or never that we actually get to a trial for them to put on an actual defense. So, the public political exoneration of part of this is so vital because it protects them from having to deal with the facts of what is in the actual indictment. I think you're going to continue to hear attacks on Jack Smith. I'm hearing that ramp up more and more. And, you know, Donalds, of course, is one of the leading surrogates for Donald Trump. I expect to see him out there more and more. But if what - if that conversation you just had, that is the exact conversation you'd have with a Republican on any random street corner of middle America right now.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: And I think there's a reason for that, which is, we've heard that conversation from other Republican leaders who have spoken publicly about this. These are set talking points. I think there's two things notable in what we just heard, because I've heard them before, which is, one, it was a factual misstatement of what the Presidential Records Act says. To everybody that we've advised this morning to go read the 49-page indictment, I say, go read the Presidential Records Act. You Google it. It's right there. It doesn't say that. It is actually crystal clear, which is, the president's records, at the stroke of 12 noon, when the new president is sworn in, becomes the property of the government, and there's no license to have two years to kind of go through them. That doesn't exist.

The second part is, the Biden/Pence comparison, they had classified documents, why -- the core of this case, if you read the indictment, is the obstructive efforts to hide, conceal and thwart the ability to enforce the National Archives' abilities to get those records back. And this is way more simple than we make it out to be.

HARLOW: Stay with us. We have a lot more ahead, guys. Thank you very much for weighing in on that.

This just in. We're getting some new information on the economy, on inflation. We've been talking about those numbers. We have the. we'll bring them to you next.

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[08:42:37]

HARLOW: All right. To the economy now. We just got some new numbers on inflation. The Consumer Price Index, as it is known, has just been released and our chief business correspondent Christine Romans is here with the numbers. Is it good?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It's good. Look, this is issue number one for American families, what they're paying for things. And the Consumer Price Index up 4 percent in May from last year, 4 percent. That is 11 months in a row of cooling prices that you can call this significantly cooling price pressures here.

Month-over-month up just 0.1 percent. So that is a two-year low for inflation. That inflation reading, right? This is - this is really an important milestone to get back in that - that -- down to 4 percent.

And when you look at the trend, you can see that inflation has been cut in half from that 40-year high of 9.1 percent last summer. Eleven months in a row now of a decline in inflation pressures.

So, where are people paying more? What is driving it? Shelter, used cars and trucks were the two biggest categories.

This is still, guys, by the way, twice what the Fed would like to see. It would like to see more like 2 percent. But I think this gives the Fed some room to pause potentially. That's what a lot of economists think, the Fed will pause and not raise interest rates this week as they wait to see whether all of that work that it's done is starting to cool the inflation story, guys.

HARLOW: All right, we'll take it.

Christine Romans, thank you very much.

MATTINGLY: All right, well, just hours from now, Donald Trump is set to turn himself in on federal criminal charges in Miami. Our teams are standing by outside the courthouse as officials prepare for crowds of the former president's supporters. CNN's special coverage begins at 1:00 p.m. Stick with us. We'll be right back.

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[08:46:38]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Loser, loser, loser.

This is vanity run amok. That is a child. It's a child.

Completely self-centered. Completely self-consumed. And doesn't give a damn about the American people, in my view.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That is 2024 Republican presidential hopeful Chris Christie slamming Donald Trump ahead of his federal court appearance today. The former New Jersey governor unleashed at a CNN town hall last night. He is one of the few Republican contenders for the White House who is railing against the former president unequivocally over his alleged mishandling of these documents.

Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, starting to change their tune, albeit slightly. Before the indictment was unsealed last week Haley tweeted, quote, this is not how justice should be pursued in our country. And here's what she said yesterday on Fox News, I should note, after the indictment was unsealed for everyone to read. Here she was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If this indictment is true, if what it says is actually the case, President Trump was incredibly reckless with our national security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Senator Tim Scott also walking a fine - to some degree, finer line.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What we've seen over the last several years is the weaponization of the Department of Justice against a former president.

This case is a serious case with serious allegations, but in America you're still innocent until proven guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Want to bring our panel back in.

And, Scott, I want to start with you because, you know, and Twitter is not real life and I'm not saying it is, but the political reporters and operative world kind of started buzzing a lot when Nikki Haley's comments first came out. Tim Scott again walking a little bit of a finer line. Is this a strategic shift? Is this a, wow, we just read the indictment, maybe we need to chill a little bit about our defense? How - what's your read on things?

JENNINGS: Well, I think Tim Scott's -- I don't think he walked anything back. I mean innocent until proven guilty. I mean --

MATTINGLY: No, no, no, I think he's walking the line between -

JENNINGS: Yes.

MATTINGLY: This is bad -

JENNINGS: Yes.

MATTINGLY: And I'm not going to totally attack the former president.

JENNINGS: And Haley - you know, Haley has a - a reputation for occasionally trying to - to have, you know, issues both ways. And so I wasn't --

JONES: Every now and again.

JENNINGS: But - but I do think that if you're sitting that low in a primary, you know, she - she and others are down that low, you might be looking for something. I mean it doesn't do you any good to go on television, like on our CNN town hall, and take such a strong national security line, which she did, and then turn around and try to wave away these national security implications, these documents, like it's no big deal or some weaponization. So, there's an incongruity there. Maybe she was trying to repair that a little bit.

I mean some of these candidates have been essentially serving as Donald Trump's shield or his press secretary or his surrogate when these things happen. I'm not - and Chris Christie said this on our air last night, I'm not sure how you win if that's your position, because if I want to vote for somebody who's defending Donald Trump, I'll just vote for Donald Trump. He's in the race and he ain't going anywhere.

So, I think there may be some realization of that, but is there any audience for that?

MATTINGLY: Right.

JENNINGS: I mean if you - if you - I don't think anything has changed for Trump on this indictment in the short term. I don't think any Republicans are peeling out of the driveway just yet. And there's more -- you know, there's more road to run here. But I don't know where she -- I don't know.

[08:50:00]

MATTINGLY: It's OK to say that.

JENNINGS: I don't know.

MATTINGLY: By the way, on television.

JENNINGS: Yes, I don't know.

MATTINGLY: I don't know.

JONES: Look, I thought Chris Christie last night was a breath of fresh air in some ways -- and not just because of stuff he was talking about with Donald Trump. He's getting a lot of attention to that.

He - you know, he talked about people who are addicted to drugs and had a very interesting position on that. He was like a safe harbor for sanity in American politics last night. And I hope the people go back and look at it. He talked about, you know, American foreign policy. He talked about - he was - he seemed to be carving out a position that wasn't just anti-Trump. It was kind of pro-sanity. And I think that if he gets a better hearing, he might do well enough to get into the debates, which I think is important.

But, you know, these other folks who are ducking and diving and trying to figure out some ways that -- compared to Chris Christie they look very cowardly. And I think the one thing Republicans and Americans respect is strength and conviction and authenticity. And I think that Chris Christie did that last night.

COATES: You know, interestingly enough, and we talked about this in part, his argument was kind of pro-institution, right, that he believed in the - still the integrity of the Department of Justice, of prosecutions, of jurors. Remember, this was a case that was a grand jury indicted case out of Florida, which really undermines the fact that it's just - no that it's Jack Smith going alone and saying I decided, you have to actually have a grand jury to do so. He wanted to keep the FBI Director Christopher Wray. He made the case for, you can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Look, I have been a federal prosecutor. I have been critical of our justice system that oftentimes can be more of a legal system than it is a justice system.

HARLOW: People should read "Just Pursuit."

COATES: Well, thank you.

HARLOW: Your great book.

COATES: I - I - yours truly to be audio (ph), thank you so much on that. It is a "New York Times" bestseller if you want to go check it out. Paperback.

But, you know, the really important - I criticize it all the time.

HARLOW: You do.

COATES: You know, James Baldwin said, I love this country more than anything else, which his why I reserve the right to perpetually criticize it.

And I perpetually criticize it with an eye towards having justice actually be caught one day. Christie makes the argument of, look, yes, you can criticize the decision not to prosecute a Hillary Clinton or even a James Comey for usurping the role of Loretta Lynch, but you can also acknowledge the fact that there is some voracity and validity to the allegation that will have to be proven in court. And I think for so many who are trying to avoid that realization, it's really odd to think that you want to be the head of the executive branch.

MILLER: I think what's interesting, if you kind of compare your town halls, you know, you saw Mike Pence say these are very serious charges. The indictment is very disturbing. And no one's above the law. But I don't think we should prosecute Donald Trump, which was the - the definition of a mixed message.

With Chris Christie, he took a - he took a position.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Thank you, guys. I think we could actually do this for like another three or four hours.

JENNINGS: Hey, I don't (INAUDIBLE).

MATTINGLY: I don't know that our bosses appreciate that, but you guys all will.

Appreciate it, guys.

HARLOW: Thank you very, very much.

There is a growing political divide in how voters view the Justice Department. We'll tell you what that is, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:56:55]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't trust the FBI. The -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The FBI is construct. The Department of Justice is corrupt, in my opinion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That is a Donald Trump supporter reacting to his federal indictment. That doubt in the FBI and the Justice Department is not unique anymore.

CNN's senior data reporter Harry Enten is here.

What do the numbers tell us?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes. So, I want you to take a look at this trend line on favorable view of the FBI and compare Democrats versus Republicans.

Go back to 2015. Seventy percent of Democrats had a favorable view of the FBI, 70 percent of Republicans. Jump ahead to 2023. Democrats have stayed pretty steady, right, at 65 percent. Look at Republicans, though, dropped all the way down to just 38 percent of Republicans have a favorable view of the FBI.

Talk about the Justice Department, favorable view of the Justice Department. Look, in 2015, Democrats like the Justice Department under Barack Obama. Republicans didn't. We go ahead to now, look, those numbers have stayed about the same. They didn't like it under a Democratic president eight years ago. They don't like it now. But those voters are very much emblematic of how Republicans feel about both those agencies.

MATTINGLY: You also dug into the numbers on some other agencies or institutions that will have a role in what's happening next. What did you find?

ENTEN: Yes. So, OK, the judicial branch, a great or fair deal of trust in the judicial branch of the federal government. Back in 2015, Democrats were far more favorable towards the judicial branch than Republicans, 66 percent to 42 percent. Jump ahead now to 2022. Look how much more favorable Republicans are. Sixty-six percent have a great or fair deal amount of trust, versus just 25 percent of Democrats.

And the CIA. Trump has done after a lot of former CIA heads. Look at this, back in 2015, Democrats and Republicans, about the same, a favorable view of the CIA. Today, Republicans, far lower, just 37 percent compared to 54 percent of Democrats.

HARLOW: That's really interesting, Harry. Thank you very, very, very much.

MATTINGLY: Thanks, buddy.

ENTEN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Take a look at this. We'll leave you with an image. Live pictures out of Miami. This is the line outside of the federal courthouse where the former president, Donald Trump, will be arraigned. For the first time in American history, we are seeing this. Special live coverage continues all day on CNN.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" is now.

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