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Southern Baptists Ban Churches With Female Pastors; Texas Governor Sends Busload Of 42 Migrants To Los Angeles; Tim Russert's Son Pens New Book On Grief. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired June 15, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

LINDA BARNES POPHAM, PASTOR, FERN CREEK BAPTIST CHURCH, CHURCH EXPELLED FROM SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION: Yes. And one of the most poignant memories of the last two days is after I spoke, a 14-year-old girl, with her mother following behind her, came through the crowds, found me, and wept and wept in my arms and said, "I'm 14 years old and when I was 11, God called me to be a minister. And now, I can't do that in the family that I love."

It's just a sad, sad thing for her --

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: When --

POPHAM: -- because she's grown up in this denomination and so have her parents, and her dreams have been to pastor in the denomination that she loved.

HILL: For so many years, my understanding -- I'm not a Southern Baptist. My understanding is that being part of the Southern Baptist Convention you were also sort of left alone, right? To your point, it's a confession, not a creed.

What do you think --

POPHAM: Exactly.

HILL: What do you think changed? Is there something that is threatening about a female pastor -- about someone like yourself who has said you felt called to the ministry as well at a very young age, just like that young girl?

POPHAM: And that's what we have been asking. And whenever a reporter or anyone talks with us we say when you find out let us know. Why now? It makes no sense. All I know is there are some kind of deeds done in darkness or some kind of maneuvering that's going on in the Southern Baptist Convention right now seeking to get rid of women in any capacity in ministering, not just the pastor, as the amendment that was voted on after we left. It sounds like that after another vote that they will be successful in women not serving in any type of ministry roles in the Southern Baptist Convention.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Wow.

HILL: You, however, will continue to serve in your role at your church.

POPHAM: Oh, yes.

HILL: Yes.

POPHAM: We will continue to be a church. We will continue to lift high the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that's what we're about.

It's like why would you pick us out of the others you could have chosen, too? And who reported us for this investigation? Why did that person not follow biblical standards and come to me in the first place? We could have sat down and dialogued. But I found out that most of those folks didn't want a dialogue even at the convention.

I know one many came up to the 20-year-old who was with me and said, "Your pastor is leading you astray." That impacted her greatly and it's so sad that she had been a part of that.

HILL: Pastor Linda Barnes Popham, we really appreciate you joining us this morning with your perspective. Thank you.

POPHAM: You're welcome.

HILL: Dozens of migrants have been bussed from Texas to California. How officials in both states are responding this morning.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:36:54]

HILL: A bus full of migrants arriving in Los Angeles last night. This came at the order of Texas Gov. Greg Abbott. A spokesperson for an immigrants' rights group tells CNN 42 migrants, including eight children, were on board. They were bussed from the Rio Grande Valley of South Texas to Los Angeles.

The mayor of L.A. and local leaders calling Gov. Abbott's move political. Abbott, though defended himself in a statement, saying that Texas border towns are, quote, "overwhelmed and overrun" and cited Los Angeles' choice to dub itself as a sanctuary city.

We are back now with our panel. As well as this, Congressman, you represented the 23rd Congressional District. That stretches across the southwestern --

WILL HURD, (R) FORMER TEXAS CONGRESSMAN: Yes.

HILL: -- portion of Texas.

Do you agree with what Gov. Abbott is doing?

HURD: Well -- so what I don't understand with some of these debates about moving people -- if you go to the San Antonio airport any day of the week, there are hundreds of migrants getting flown all over the country. Del Rio, Eagle Pass, El Paso can't handle the capacity of people that are coming into our country illegally.

So whether it was a political move or not, other cities around the country are going to have to continue to help deal with this crisis. That, I remind people, started under Donald Trump and has gotten significantly worse under Joe Biden.

So the communities that I represented -- I had 820 miles of the border. It took 10 1/2 hours to drive across my district at 80 miles an hour, which was the speed limit in most of the district. These communities have been dealing with this before COVID. They were hit by COVID. And now they're having thousands of people that they have to take care of before they find places to go in the interior of the country.

So I don't know how a bus is different from a flight.

What we need to be talking about is how California can say hey, here is the capacity we can have. You know, bring this many people. Chicago needs to be doing the same thing. I know New York City is doing that. Because this is a -- this is a collective problem that everybody needs to deal with.

HILL: So you mention everybody needs to step up. But just to go back to the original question --

HURD: Yes.

HILL: -- do you agree with the way Gov. Abbott is handling it? Is this the right way to do it?

HURD: So, again, I don't know these same people on a bus versus a plane -- I don't know -- I don't know what the difference is. I know a lot of people are still getting on buses like places Del Rio to go to other parts of the country. So I don't know how this is more -- is different.

I know -- you know, there was a couple of buses sent to Kamala Harris' house in Washington, D.C. Yes, of course, that's trying to shine a political light on this.

But why are we not -- if we're outraged by that, why are we not outraged by treating everybody as an asylum seeker, which is not the way the law is written and how that is fueling money to the human smugglers that are bringing people in here on a perilous journey and taking their money? Smugglers in Mexico made about $25 billion last year because on average, someone has to pay about $10,000 to use a smuggler. Why are we not outraged by that?

And this notion that we're treating everybody as an asylum seeker actually hurts the people that need asylum. And so, why are we not outright -- outraged by streamlining legal immigration?

[07:40:04]

The fact that Democrats -- you know, Republicans always get blamed for that. But when Democrats have owned the entire government and had all branches of government, they've never been able to do that because their far-left has problems as well, too.

So let's be outraged by all of it and actually solve some of the problem. And there's a number of things this administration can do that doesn't require congressional support or legislation to solve this problem -- not be consumed by some people being on a bus and going to a place where they're probably going to have a better quality of life and not have to sleep on the -- on the -- on the -- on the benches in El Paso.

HARLOW: Talk about New York City, specifically. This is your beat. And Mayor Adams has been very vocal about his dissatisfaction with the Biden administration on this front and asking for more help. The response to that from Gov. Abbott and others is you named this a sanctuary city so now you can feel what we're feeling.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, POLITICAL ANCHOR, SPECTRUM NEWS, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK MAGAZINE, HOST, "YOU DECIDE" PODCAST: Well --

HARLOW: Where does this go?

LOUIS: I mean, the argument about sanctuary city is -- I mean, that's pure politics.

HARLOW: Right.

LOUIS: Sanctuary city really refers to what happens after somebody gets here.

HARLOW: That you won't be prosecuted for it.

LOUIS: You won't necessarily -- right. There's not a lot of tight cooperation between border officials, say, and the NYPD. But that -- you know, that -- you know who implemented that, by the way, is Rudy Giuliani, a Republican mayor a generation ago.

But the real problem is that the migrants -- we got 2,200 here in New York City just last week. There are upwards of 40,000 people now staying in hotels and shelters in New York City in part because they were sent here by Gov. Abbott and other border state politicians.

The reality is it does require some kind of a rational national conversation and response. The burden on New York City alone is upwards of $4 billion is the estimate and that is absolutely unsustainable. I mean, they'll figure out what to do with it and they'll do humanitarian interventions when and where possible.

But to sort of shift a catastrophe all over the country randomly in a uncoordinated fashion with politics as the motivation rather than sitting down to sort of legislate some kind of solution is absolutely irresponsible. But this is what you get. This is what you get.

We don't have enough money for the immigration judges. We don't have enough money for the humanitarian --

HARLOW: No, no, no. We do have enough money. It's about how we're spending the money. I --

LOUIS: How we're spending it -- right. We are not allocating enough money.

HARLOW: I'll never forget watching -- it's so old -- this documentary, a "WELL-FOUNDED FEAR" that I think everyone should watch -- a Frontline piece about the asylum process and judges, and how arbitrary this is, and how this all works. And it really gets to the core of what it looks like to come to this country for asylum, what you're facing, and then exacerbated so, so much now. So, how are we spending the money in resources?

LOUIS: Yes. A big -- a big part of how it's broken is it's obviously -- if you think about it for just a few minutes, that massive spending in Venezuela, in Mexico --

HARLOW: Yes, at the root.

LOUIS: -- and in other places -- right -- to stop the flow or to at least disincentivize it, or even just to shift some of the logistical handling of it over there would be worth every penny. And yet, if you talk about increasing what's perceived as foreign aid it draws an enormous response and Americans think no, no, no, no. Why are we spending over there when we should be spending here?

HARLOW: That's a really fair point that it ties.

LOUIS: And the answer is well, because it would cost 90 percent less.

HARLOW: Errol, thank you very much. Congressman Hurd, thank you. We really appreciate it.

Up next, it has been 15 years since the legend, Tim Russert, the long- serving moderator of NBC's "MEET THE PRESS" passed away. Now his son Luke is opening up about grief and growth in his new book. We're so happy to have Luke Russert join us live in the studio.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:47:16]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PEARL JAM, ROCK BAND: Singing "Release."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That is the Pearl Jam song that Luke Russert says helped him get through a lot in 15 years since he lost his father, the famed and really beloved TV news legend, Tim Russert.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM BROKAW, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Our beloved colleague, one of the premier journalists of our time, Tim Russert, died this afternoon after collapsing at work at the NBC news bureau in Washington, D.C. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And Tim Russert died of a heart attack just days before Father's Day. It was 2008. He was only 58 years old.

He was the longest-serving host of NBC's "MEET THE PRESS." He also served as the network's Washington bureau chief.

And his son, Luke, was just 22 years old when he lost his dad. In his new book "Look for Me There: Grieving My Father, Finding Myself" he chronicles his yearslong journey to find answers about his own life, his career, and his father's legacy.

And he writes, "The last eight years have been such a whirlwind that I've never fully processed my dad's grief (sic). It's apparent that I've spent so much time honoring his legacy that I've never truly accepted his death. Worse, by honoring that legacy, I have failed to forge my own life." But I think he's done that.

I'm so happy to be joined now by Luke Russert. Good morning.

LUKE RUSSERT, AUTHOR, "LOOK FOR ME THERE: GRIEVING MY FATHER, FINDING MYSELF": Thank you so much for having me, Poppy.

HARLOW: Such a good book.

RUSSERT: Appreciate that.

HARLOW: Such a meaningful book.

We are a few days from Father's Day --

RUSSERT: Yes.

HARLOW: -- and I think for everyone who has lost a parent, Father's Day means something different. But to you, as you look at this Father's Day, let's just play the eulogy -- part of the eulogy --

RUSSERT: Yes.

HARLOW: -- that you gave for your dad all those years ago. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSSERT: His spirit lives on in everybody who loves their country, loves their family, loves their faith, and loves those Buffalo Bills. I love you, Dad. And in his words, let us all go get 'em.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And here's what happens after that, Luke. You write, "Senator Obama stands first and starts to clap. Others join. Soon, it's full of a standing ovation -- an anomaly at a Catholic funeral. I take a slow walk to the pew. I don't cry. I whisper, 'Thanks, Dad.'"

RUSSERT: Yes.

HARLOW: That day, really the beginning of the rest of your life.

RUSSERT: It was, and I look back on that kid -- 22-year-old Luke -- and he was trying so hard. And I often wonder where he got the strength to do that. And it was really a sense of duty not only to honor his father and his family but to some degree, I think to try and make people comfortable at the time.

You know, I had so many people at the wake who came up to me and said Tim's alive through you. We see the twinkle in his eye and your eye. And I tried to gravitate towards that and really live that.

[07:50:07]

And I did that for many years -- brought that into NBC News and my own reporting and tried to live up to my father's standards and values. But there became a moment when I realized man, I've been living for this legacy. I've been trying to keep that flame going. I don't really know what's going on inside.

And I started to feel anxious. I started to feel moments of self- reflection --

HARLOW: Yes.

RUSSERT: -- where I didn't necessarily know is this what I want to do.

HARLOW: That was such -- that was such a key part of the book for me. On page 33, you write, "A hollowness inside me widens. I can't ignore it. I have been using journalism as an altruistic shield but it's not enough to protect me from thinking I'm letting my life slip away."

You left this huge career -- what could have been stardom. I don't know -- maybe you would have followed in your father's footsteps and moderated "MEET THE PRESS." But you left it three years, six continents, 65 countries --

RUSSERT: Yes.

HARLOW: -- to find yourself.

RUSSERT: I was looking for who I was independent of him. Independent of the legacy. Independent of the Washington bubble. Independent of media.

And in some ways, I was almost seeking permission to be my own person, which I look back at now and I go man, that's so silly because my father loved me so much. The one thing more than anything else he would want me to do is to be happy. And if being happy meant being your own many, go ahead and do it, Luke. I love you.

HARLOW: Right.

RUSSERT: I'll support you. I'll back you up. The other thing, though, that I did over the course of all those continents and those countries was I was trying to outrun grief because I had never really dealt with it.

HARLOW: Outrun grief.

RUSSERT: Outrun grief because I had never dealt with it. I had outrun it when I threw myself into work.

HARLOW: Yes.

RUSSERT: The greatest cure for misery is hard work and I got it in a fortune cookie when I was 22 years old. And I just sort of left journalism and I said OK, I'm going to go reflect and think about things. And I became more comfortable with the voice in my own head. But throughout the process I realized man, I have never really understood the gravity of losing my best friend and my north star. I'd always sort of stored and ignored which, unfortunately, a lot of young men --

HARLOW: Stored and ignored.

RUSSERT: Stored and ignored, which is something I think a lot of young men ultimately do -- a lot of men do. It's a way to sort of escape the vulnerability of having to deal with grief and loss, which is often difficult, especially when you're trying to project strength for your family and for your own mentality.

HARLOW: You talk about the courage to find your purpose. And there is this amazing scene in the book where then-House Speaker John Boehner --

RUSSERT: Yes.

HARLOW: -- calls you in for this special meeting. And he essentially, like, tells you to go --

RUSSERT: It's an incredible --

HARLOW: -- to leave.

RUSSERT: It's an incredible moment. Here is a guy second in line to the presidency --

HARLOW: Yes.

RUSSERT: -- House Speaker. He called me into his office on Capitol Hill and I thought he was going to be mad about coverage. You know politicians will call you up and they go --

HARLOW: Oh, I do know.

RUSSERT: -- you're not giving me a fair shake. What are you doing?

And I walk in the office and he asked me a very simple question. He goes, "What are you doing here?" And I said, "What do you mean? You called me into your office. What

are you doing here?"

And he goes, "No, what are you doing here on Capitol Hill? I've seen you here for eight years. I know so many folks that are here 20, 30, 40 years. They wake up one morning and they don't know if this was all there was in their life."

He goes, "It's a great job. If you like it, stay here. You're good at it. But just make sure it's what you actually want to do --

HARLOW: Yes.

RUSSERT: -- because time is a flat circle and this is a very transactional place."

And it was words from a previous messenger.

HARLOW: You end the book with a chapter on your travels to Jerusalem.

RUSSERT: Yes.

HARLOW: And that's where we really learn about your faith. You're a devout Catholic. And you had this pretty remarkable experience in Jerusalem asking God what am I supposed to do.

RUSSERT: It was --

HARLOW: And what did he tell you?

RUSSERT: -- towards the end of the journey and I'm confused because I had started writing the book at that point but I didn't really know what is the purpose of all of this? Why was I bestowed upon all of these things -- bestowed all these things upon me? What can I do?

And I go into the Tomb of Christ at Church of the Holy Sepulchre and it's there where I pray and I essentially asked God, "What can I do?" And I hear a voice in my head that says "Well, keep praying." I go, "Oh my gosh. Why? Oh, this is going to continue?"

And then, lo and behold, I walk out into the dark night of Old Jerusalem and there is -- all the shops are closed but there is one guy who is selling yarmulkes on a table and the one that's front and center is a Buffalo Bills yarmulke.

HARLOW: And there's Dad.

RUSSERT: And I go, "That's Dad." And those are -- you have to be aware of the signs. And once I saw that, I went to the Western Wall. I won't give away the ending but essentially, I became aware that you've got to look for the signs and they're all there, and the signs --

HARLOW: Slip a note in.

RUSSERT: -- will take care of you.

I slipped a note in, yes, and I -- and I -- and that's my message to Dad.

HARLOW: Let's end on this for Father's Day and everyone who experiences it differently. You write in the book, "Oh, dead Dad, can you see me now? I am myself, like you, somehow. I will ride --

It makes me tear up.

RUSSERT: Yes, I know.

HARLOW: "I will ride the wave where it takes me and I'll hold the pain. Release me."

RUSSERT: Yes.

HARLOW: That brings tears to my eyes.

RUSSERT: Ode to Eddie Vedder for the song "Release" which you played on the way in. And I think that that's something that a lot of us who lost our fathers -- we hold onto that and we hold onto their spirit. We hold on to their memory.

Father's Day is not easy for a lot of people. I'm so very much aware of that. But I got a place where more so than anything our lost loved ones -- they want us to be happy. They want us to cheers them and they want us to remember them fondly. And that's what I will do for my father this Father's Day.

HARLOW: It's such a good book, and for anyone dealing with grief, I hope they read it. Congratulations.

[07:55:02]

RUSSERT: Thank you so much, Poppy. I appreciate it.

HARLOW: Thanks, Luke, very much.

RUSSERT: Thank you.

HARLOW: "Look for Me There: Grieving My Father, Finding Myself" is out now.

RUSSERT: That was so sweet. Thank you.

HARLOW: Goodbye.

(COMMERCIAL)

HILL: Search and rescue operations are ramping up this morning after a migrant boat carrying hundreds sank off the southern coast of Greece. Now, officials say at least 78 people drowned. Hundreds more, though, are feared missing.

The Greek Coast Guard has taken more than 100 survivors -- all of them men -- to Kalamata, Greece.

That is where we find CNN's Melissa Bell. Melissa, we're hearing some 750 people were on board that boat. There was some sort of a -- as I understand it, Melissa, a sudden shift in weight. What more -- what more do you know this morning?

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Erica. And what we're seeing more than 36 hours after this ship sank, the fear is at this stage that the 104 survivors, many of whom are being looked after in that hangar behind me, will be the only ones found. The Greek authorities have vowed to carry on, saying they'll try and find anyone they can.

But there are also growing questions, Erica, about how a boat so clearly in distress should have been left to sink.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BELL (voice-over): A dramatic rescue at sea. The Greek Coast Guard pulling a group of people to safety -- the lucky ones -- survivors of yet another catastrophe on the deadliest migrant crossing in the world, the Mediterranean.

Somehow, 104 people managed to leave this overcrowded fishing boat alive, but hundreds that you see here did not. Most still missing in the deepest part of the Mediterranean Sea just 50 miles off the Greek coast.

On shore, medics rush to preserve the lives of those that survived -- their bodies in trauma after hours in the water. All are men.

Aid workers tell me others were unable to get out.

IPPOKRATIS EFSTATHIOU, SOCIAL WORKER, IASIS: What we are getting from the people is that the -- mostly, the kids and the women have been, like, locked inside the basement of the boat.

BELL (voice-over): As the search for bodies continues there are questions about how long it took to try to help these people.

The vessel started out from Libya heading towards Italy and called for help on Tuesday afternoon, one charity has said.

[08:00:00]