Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Ousted Tennessee Lawmakers Face Special Election; South Korea: North Korea Fired Two Ballistic Missiles; Miami Mayor Enters Crowded GOP Presidential Race; Interview with State Reps Justin Jones and Justin J. Pearson (D-TN). Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired June 15, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: From Libya heading towards Italy and called for help on Tuesday afternoon, one charity has said. It claims the authorities knew for hours that the vessel was in peril but that a rescue operation was, quote, not launched until it was too late.

At this stage there is little hope that more survivors will be found. Those that did make it are deeply traumatized and their future in Europe far from certain.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BELL (on camera): Erica, we have been speaking to family members desperate to try and figure out whether their loved ones were on the ship. And, of course, that's part of the wider tragedy that at this moment, there are so many others even now in the Mediterranean trying to get to safety, Erica.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and that, too, is such an important point. Melissa, appreciate it. Thank you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: CNN THIS MORNING continues now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Donald's position is never to settle ever because he thinks it's a sign of weakness. Unfortunately, he didn't have anybody around him to guide him properly. He is like a petulant child that just keeps sticking their finger into an electric socket. Most people don't have what to takes in order to tell Donald that you're wrong, you've got to do this, because Donald doesn't want to hear it. And if you do say it, he just terminates you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Good morning, everyone. That is where we begin on the former president because of a really stunning report in "The Washington Post" this morning that former President Trump has repeatedly ignored the advice of his lawyers, some of whom tried to prevent this classified documents case from coming in the first place -- he is now -- that he is now in, including an attorney who wanted to strike a deal with the Justice Department. We will tell you who he has been listening to.

HILL: Plus, we could get a huge decision this morning from the Supreme Court dealing with affirmative action. We're going to take a closer look at the case that could radically transform the way colleges across this country use race as a factor in admissions.

HARLOW: And the young black state lawmakers in Tennessee who were expelled just a few months ago by their fellow colleagues who are Republicans and then reinstated, they are now facing a special election. Today they will join us live in studio.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts now.

Here's where we begin, with "The Washington Post" piece that I mentioned, reporting that one of Donald Trump's lawyers wanted to strike a deal with the Justice Department months ago to avoid criminal charges in the classified documents case, but the former president rejected the idea. "The Post" reports that Chris Kise wanted to negotiate a settlement with DOJ attorneys back in the fall. This is, of course, after that August search of Mar-a-Lago by the FBI where they found a trove of highly sensitive documents, including secrets about our nation's nuclear program.

CNN spoke to sources close to Trump's legal team, though, about "The Post's" reporting, and some are casting doubt on this having been a real opportunity to prevent Trump's indictment.

HILL: Their reporting also notes that rather than listening to actual lawyers, CNN and "The Post" both found, both report that Trump had been following the advice of this man. It's Tom Fitton, who doesn't have a law degree. He is the head of the conservative activist group Judicial Watch. CNN has previously reported Fitton started calling Trump in February of last year, urging him not to turn over the documents and also not to cooperate with federal investigators.

HARLOW: Let's bring in CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, chief White House correspondent and senior political correspondent at "The Messenger" Amie Parnes, and CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller. Good morning, guys.

Elie, can you talk about what this would have looked like? If you were a prosecutor, if you are sitting at DOJ and the Trump team comes to you after you found these classified documents from Mar-a-Lago and says, look, let's strike a deal here. We don't need to go forward with this. We will give you everything you want. Would DOJ have done that?

ELIE HONIG, SENIOR CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's all about timing. And I think at this point in this whole sequence here, after the search warrant has been done in August 2022, I don't think there would have been any deal to be had short of taking a play. But if the idea is, OK Trump's team is going to come to me as DOJ and say we are going give you everything now that you come in and search the place and you are going to go away, I think it's too late at that point.

I think there is a point of no return. Once DOJ has got to the point where they've gone to a judge, said we have probable cause, you've done the search warrant.

Now, that said, I think if the lawyers had gotten through to Donald Trump way earlier in the process, before DOJ got involved, when it was just Archives or maybe early on in the DOJ process and said, OK, sorry, there has been some bad communication here, maybe he has gotten some bad advice. He wants to give you everything. We are going to invite you in, we're going to work with you, back then I think there would have been a chance of a deal that did not involve a guilty plea.

HILL: Former Congressman Will Hurd who was with us earlier this morning talking about, too, that there were so many points on this road where things like that could have happened that would have greatly changed this, and also the questions that we are not talking about and reality that we are not talking about in terms of the allegations when it comes to the number of Republicans defending the former president.

[08:05:01]

When you look at this, Amie, from a political angle, is this really the only tactic that Donald Trump can take right now is to take that page out of his very well-worn playbook that we all know and just throw whatever he wants to out there, right, make wild allegations that don't have anything to do with his charges, is that it?

AMIE PARNES, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE MESSENGER": Look, Trump wants to be Trump, right? This is like a spot he is familiar with. He likes sort of this contentious back and forth. He likes holding the Biden administration accountable and pointing to them and saying, look, they are the ones who did this to me. And look, he is raising a lot of money off of it. He is rallying the troops. He is far ahead of Ron DeSantis at this point because of this indictment and the last indictment.

So I think he feels like this propels him, and it's why he wanted to sort of hold his ground. He didn't want to give back his documents. I talked to people who said he was very firm on that. He didn't want to do that. And he doesn't listen to his advice anyway from lawyers. So when was the last time he listened to a lawyer, really?

HARLOW: Good question.

HONIG: He is what's known as difficult client.

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: And "The Washington Post" reporting zeros in on a lawyer who is back on the scene, Mr. Kise, the former solicitor general of Florida, who said let me go to main justice and see if we can put out this fire. Enter Mr. Fitton who says give them hell. In the Donald Trump playbook, always a more attractive option.

And CNN did some very good reporting on this last year with Evan Perez and Kristen Holmes about Fitton's intervention. But as Elie points out, once you have executed that search warrant and the wheels of the criminal justice system are turning, it's almost too late to say you're sorry. If you approach on the right level, though, and said, there is more, we went about this wrong, and consider the implications of criminal charges against a former president, let's straighten this whole thing out, there is a chance that an attorney general could have said, all right, full stop, let's go through this and see what else is there, and maybe we can come to some kind of agreement. Obviously, that train left the station without anybody on it.

HILL: Literally did not happen.

HONIG: Donald Trump is magnetically attracted to the worst possible advice. It's been a theme from the time he took office. It's been a theme throughout the Mueller investigation. There have been two different types of lawyers. Lawyers saying calm down, let's do the right thing, you can work here. And then the people like Tom Fitton, not a lawyer, telling him no way, fight, get your back up. And that always has led him into more trouble.

HARLOW: It goes back to the --

MILLER: And history has also shown us that those are the lawyers that last the shortest time. So it's interesting to see Kise back in the game.

HILL: Yes. We also want your take on this. A grand jury here in New York has voted to indict a man accused of killing a homeless man after holding him in a chokehold on a subway train. That chokehold lasting a number of minutes. Marine veteran Daniel Penny has been indicted, expected to be indicted on second-degree manslaughter charges. This according to source with knowledge of that case. We are expecting that formal announcement to come later today. He is accused of killing Jordan Neely last month. He says he felt Neely presented a threat and a danger on the subway train. Witnesses describe the homeless man getting on the train, shouting that he was hungry, thirsty, didn't care if he died. They said Penny walked up to Neely at one point and put him in a chokehold.

CNN has reached out to Penny's attorneys for comment as we wait to hear back on all of that. As we look at this, John, what do you make, first, of the indictment?

MILLER: So the indictment is -- he was arrested on May 12th. The controversy, of course, was that it was two weeks after the incident when people were saying, had this been a black suspect, he would have been arrested that night at the scene. What is this special treatment? The district attorney's office said we want to hear more about the case. What are the other witnesses on the train saying, what is the video, is there another video, and so on. They put it through the grand jury. That's the first test. That's 23 people who say, well, I'll hear all of that, or as much as the district attorney will present, and decide is there probable cause to sustain this manslaughter charge, which means he recklessly, not intentionally, recklessly caused the death of another by taking actions that a reasonable person should have known were likely to result in that.

The key now is going on to trial, two big questions. I don't know the answer to the first. I do know he was indicted on man two yesterday. We don't know if Daniel Penny testified before that grand jury and told his story, because if he did, it shows us it did not move those people. If he didn't, he is saving that for the trial where he is going to have to articulate what was in his mind that made him think that that use of force was justified, that this -- that Mr. Neely was about to do something.

HONIG: This is going to be a difficult trial, any way you look at it.

[08:10:00]

And it will come down to sort of the nuances of what exactly happened in that subway car, what exactly was Mr. Neely doing. I think the testimony of the bystanders, the other people in the car, is going to be crucial. How long did he hold him in the chokehold? What signs or indicators was Mr. Neely giving? And it's important to keep in mind, as John well knows, the standard for a grand jury is probable cause down here. But at a trial jury, beyond a reasonable doubt and you need unanimous. So this is going to be a tragic trial, a difficult trial, but a tough one, too.

HARLOW: Important one.

Also this morning, the Supreme Court could release a major decision on affirmative action. The justices may ban universities from considering race as a driving factor in their admissions process, making it one of the Supreme Court's biggest reversals of a precedent since Roe versus Wade last year.

Ariane de Vogue joins us now. We won't know until 10:00 a.m. We never know if they are going to do this. But just set the table for us. We learned a lot in the oral arguments in this case, and it signaled where this court is likely to go.

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Right. At 10:00 we are going to get opinions. We never know in advance which ones, but all eyes are waiting to see if the court is going to answer that question whether colleges and universities can continue to take race into consideration as a factor in admissions.

Decades-old precedent is at stake, and it has allowed the schools to take race into consideration just in a holistic way, as long as it's not this strict quota. At issue here are plans for the University of North Carolina and Harvard, and these schools argue that they want to take race into consideration so that they can increase diversity on campus. They say that that leads to a better learning environment. And at oral arguments you heard Elena Kagen say these schools are very often the pipelines to leadership in society.

But the challengers, they come from a conservative group here, and it says basically that these plans violate equal protection principles as well as federal law that bars you from race discrimination. They say that the plans actually thwart their goal of a colorblind society. So the most important thing to remember here is almost just a year ago the court made that move to overturn precedent in area of abortion. Now the big question is whether this conservative court that is bolstered by three of President Trump's nominees is ready to make that move again to overturn precedent and to get rid of these programs that have benefitted black and Hispanic students. So we will see at 10:00 if we are going to get that opinion today.

HARLOW: It's interesting. In oral arguments when Justice Alito talked about this and he asked this question to the lawyers, arguing what does that mean? They talk about college admissions as a zero-sum game. And that really seemed indicate a lot just to me as a listener. But what about to you as a court expert?

DE VOGUE: Well, you are looking at the conservatives on this court, and you can also look at Justice Clarence Thomas, the second African American man on the Supreme Court. He has long said that he thinks that precedent should be overturned. He says that in the big picture it ends up hurting rather than helping. So we are going to see what he has to say this time. But a few years ago, he said that this precedent should be overturned.

HARLOW: And you expect it will be -- do you think Clarence Thomas will write the majority opinion if it goes that way?

DE VOGUE It's hard to tell, right? We have a lot of big cases pending, and you sort of have to do the math. Who has written different majority opinions. There are other big cases. There's a voting rights case, a couple of cases having to do with President Biden's programs. So you just have to see. At this time of the year, it's a guessing game. When are we going to get these opinions, and who is going to write? We will have to check in at 10:00.

HARLOW: Thank you, Ariane, very much. We certainly will.

Meantime, it is election day for the two Tennessee state lawmakers who were expelled then reinstated because of their guan reform demonstrations on the statehouse floors. Republicans Justin Jay Pearson and Justin Jones will join us next.

HILL: And an Arizona mother who received a frantic phone call sounded like her daughter telling her she had been kidnapped. You may remember this story that CNN brought you. It wasn't her daughter on the phone. It was a scam, a frightening scam created with artificial intelligence. You're going to hear directly from that mom. She will join us live and talk about urging Congress now to act.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:15:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) close machines they cut.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Hear all those cheers because that was Tennessee State Representative Justin Jones in April being reinstated to the Tennessee House after being expelled. Today, he and his colleague Justin J. Pearson face a special primary election to get back their seats. The lawmakers, both young black Democrats, were expelled from the Republican-dominated chamber in April for this. They were accused of breaking a quorum when they staged a gun reform demonstration on the floor using a blowhard (sic). And following this, of course, followed that deadly school shooting in Nashville. Both men returned to the Tennessee House after local officials reappointed them through unanimous votes. But those were only interim appointments. Jones is running unopposed in his primary, he will advance to the general election in the fall. Pearson however has one Democratic challenger in the primary and they both join us this morning.

It's great to have you. A blow horn. I said it wrong, sorry about that, guys. Good morning, thanks very much for being with us. I want -- I want -- I wonder Mr. Jones, to you, you have -- you're still going into -- assuming you guys retake your seats. A body where two- thirds of it voted to oust you for these goals and for saying we have to do something on guns that are killing our children. What has it been like interacting with them as you face this special election?

REP. JUSTIN JONES (D-TN): Yes. Well, good morning, and thank you so much for having us. As you stated today as the primary election, I don't have a Democratic opponent, but I do have a Republican opponent on August 3rd special election. And for my opponent, I'm going to give you an example. Over 60 percent of my opponent's campaign contributions come from my Republican colleagues in the legislature. 60 percent, which means that my colleagues, who voted to expel myself and Representative Pearson, still have not given up in their attempt to kick out the two youngest black lawmakers in our state because we stood with our constituents fighting for common sense gun laws.

[08:20:07]

We have a special session on August 21st, that we hope will move forward around gun safety. But we know that we are still in a body where our voices are not welcomed. The last week of session, we were not allowed to speak on the House floor. We still have been stripped of our committees and we're still treated like second-class members in the Tennessee General Assembly. And so, the work to reinstate us as full members who represent our districts, over 70,000 people each, that work continues.

HILL: And Mr. Pearson, you do have a challenger in the primary today. We'll ask you about that in a second. But just to pick up, you know, where your colleague left off, are you feeling that same way in terms of what it's been like for you over the last several months, trying to do the job that you were elected to do since you were reinstated, has it been more challenging?

REP. JUSTIN J. PEARSON (D-TN): OK, we have to realize that we're dealing with an institution, and institutions do not change very quickly. This institution has been rooted in white supremacy, has been rooted in patriarchy and injustice for a very long time. And the ramifications of their decisions, because they have been supporting a mob autocracy instead of a democracy, have been hurting our democracy through anti-democratic behavior such as our expulsions.

And so, because we know this institution is not going to change in and of itself, we are relying on the people power movement that is multiracial, that is intergenerational, that is lifting up the voices of hundreds of thousands of millions of Tennesseans, that wants to see something done on gun safety, that wants to see something done on the issues that matter to our communities, both in rural suburban and urban Tennessee.

HARLOW: Do you think Representative Jones, has anything changed? I mean, I remember when you, speaking after all of this, you said we called for you all to ban assault weapons, you responded with an assault on democracy, saying you weren't willing to use this effort, this time, this power to talk about red flag laws, and some of the other things you guys were calling for. But you also vowed to be with the people every week demanding that you act. Do you have reason -- because the body hasn't significantly changed in terms of, you know, their politics -- do you have any reason to believe you can get some of this stuff done a second time around?

JONES: I do. You know, this summer I've met with people from still across the state. And the majority of Tennessee and Republicans, Independents, Democrats support commonsense gun laws. The governor is calling for us to pass red flag laws, an NRA-endorsed governor. And so, the tide is shifting here, and there's a generational shift. As I said back in April, the Republican supermajority of Tennessee has lost a generation. Gen Z is the final generation, and they are rising up, they're organized.

As with students yesterday, they're making shirts that say protect kids, not guns. And they're going to be having a rally tomorrow in the House Republican leader William Lambert's District in Sumner County, a rural county. So, Tennessee is shifting for the better. We're building a multiracial democracy and multi-generational democracy, multifaith democracy in our state. And either, we're going to change the laws here, we're going to change this in those seats come 2024. And this election is -- this election for us, a special election is going to be that first step forward to show that attacks on democracy will not happen in the comfort of silence and that we're going to protect our kids and not the gun industry.

HILL: Great to have both of you with us. Tennessee State Representative Justin J. Pearson, Justin Jones. Thank you both.

HARLOW: Thank you.

Well, new this morning, South Korea reporting that the North has fired two ballistic missiles. We'll give you the latest on what we're learning at this hour.

HILL: Also, this just in Miami Mayor Francis Suarez just announced he is in fact joining that 2024 race for the White House.

[08:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: So, new this morning, South Korea reporting that North Korea has fired two ballistic missiles toward the East Coast of the Korean Peninsula. Before that missile launch, North Korea denounced the joint exercises between the U.S. and the south -- and South Korea. Those exercises ended today. The two countries have staged five joint live drills since May the 25th.

HILL: There's also just into CNN, the 2024 Republican field growing again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCIS SUAREZ (R), MAYOR OF MIAMI, FL, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In Miami, we stopped waiting for Washington to leave. America so called leaders confuse being loud with actual leading. All Washington wants to do is fight with each other. Instead of fighting for the people that put them in office. My dad taught me that you get to choose your battles. And I am choosing the biggest want of my life. I'm going to run for President. I'm going to run for your children and mine. Let's give them the future they deserve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: The Mayor of the city of Miami Francis Suarez joining the rather crowded GOP race here. CNN Chief National Affairs Correspondent Jeff Zeleny is with us now. So, Jeff, the third Floridian to join the race. What more can you tell us about the mayor?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning. Well, as you can see in the video there, he's a young candidate, he's 45 years old, clearly wanting to show that he's in good shape. And he presents a generational change with many of the candidates in the race. As you said that field is getting incredibly crowded, but he becomes yet another Republican. He's going to formally announce tonight at the Reagan Library, of course, that is an interesting venue to do so.

He said Ronald Reagan has been a hero of his since he was a very young boy. But again, at 45 years old, he would have certainly had to have been a young boy, he did not really live through the Reagan era. But he was reelected to the Mayor of Miami after being elected the first time with very strong margins. Now, the Mayor is largely a ceremonial role. Most of the power in Miami comes from the County board. But he certainly is a spokesman and a, you know, certainly a good face for Miami. But I sat down with him last year to talk about what he believes is needed in this Republican field and his comments now perhaps are more instructive than ever.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUAREZ: There's absolutely no doubt that relitigating a 2020 election is not going to be a recipe for success for the Republican Party. I think having a vision, understanding that this could be a generational moment for the country. Where, you know, people are passing the baton from one generation to the next. Creates generational opportunities for many people in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:30:00]