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CNN This Morning
Michael Guillen is Interviewed about the Titanic; Alito Faces Questions over Trips; Russia Extends Gershkovich's Sentence; Calder Walton is Interviewed about His New Book. Aired 6:30-7a ET
Aired June 22, 2023 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CAPT. JAMIE FREDERICK, U.S. COAST GUARD: We need to have hope, right? But - but I don't -- I can't tell you what the noises are. But what I can tell you is, and I think this is the most important point, we're searching where the noises are. And that's all we can do at this point.
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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: They are trying as hard as they can, search and rescue, in a race against time, trying to locate the missing submersible that set off on a mission to the Titanic wreckage site about 400 nautical miles off the coast of Newfoundland. The Titan began its nearly 13,000-foot descent on Sunday morning, but the vessel and its five person crew vanished in less than two hours.
This is not the first time that a mission to the Titanic shipwreck has gone awry. More than 20 years ago, then ABC News science editor Dr. Michael Guillen was sent on assignment all the way down to the Titanic in a submersible when he got stuck.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, boy, I felt a little bit of a boom, didn't you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes, certainly (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh. Look at these things floating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my -- look at the size of these things.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh. So, are we stuck or what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As this graphic shows, we appear to be somehow wedged alongside the giant propeller beneath the wreck of the upside- down stern.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: Luckily, there was a three-person crew. They were able to break free. A moment that Dr. Guillen captured on camera. Watch this.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After half an hour, Victor's incredible piloting skills and cool-headed attitude win the day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're out?
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HARLOW: Well, joining us now is the scientist, the journalist and author, Dr. Michael Guillen.
Thank you so much for being with us.
When I read your account, I was so shocked because you - you don't even like, you know, going under the water at all. And so when - when it - when you got this offer as a journalist at ABC News, you felt you had to take it because of what you would see. And then you get stuck in the propeller. You have a perspective that almost no one on earth has of what it is like to go down. Can you tell us about that experience given what we're going through looking for this right now?
DR. MICHAEL GUILLEN, FORMER ABC NEWS SCIENCE EDITOR: Yes. Well, good morning. That's right, I have a deathly fear of water. And so when I was invited to be the first TV correspondent to report from the Titanic, my impulse was, oh, God, no. Of all things I don't want to do that. But then I had to do my job.
When we got stuck down there, two and a half miles beneath the surface, it was the sense of being buried alive under that much water. And I can't even begin to tell you that -- how terrifying that is because when we first collided there was just a sense of orientation. You know, it's like when you're driving and it's a beautiful, sunny day, and you're top of the world, you're thinking everything is going great and then suddenly some other car comes out of nowhere and just slams into you. And there's that moment of confusion as to what, what, what just happened. And then once we realized that this was a very serious thing, really the sub fell silent because neither I or my driving buddy wanted to disturb the pilot, who, at that point, then was at the edge of his seat, monitoring the situation, speaking in Russian to the mothership above us and we -- we thought, wow, how are we going to get out of this?
And, of course, my scientific brain started ticking off all the ways maybe we could get out. But, you know, very soon you realize, man, there is no way out. You're in the middle of the north Atlantic at the bottom and you can't call AAA to tow you out. And - and so I experienced enormous sadness. The only way to can describe it is, it's as if the weight of the ocean just came down on me. And I thought of my wife. We were newlyweds. It was my anniversary, September of 2000. And - and then I inexplicably, ultimately experienced a sense of peace. But all through these last 72 hours, I'm thinking of those five souls
down there and I know exactly what they are experiencing. I wonder if they're still alive. You know, they're hearing noises, but we can't tell what those noises are. And we're very close, if not already past the point where they are run out of oxygen. So, if they're not the ones making the noise inside, you know, banging on the walls of the sub, which is what I would have done if they had lost communications.
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Noise travels very well in water. Much better than it does in - in - in the air. And we'd been listening for it. Then it might just be a piece of metal or a part of the ship just banging pieces of - metal just banging together. We may never know. We may never recover this vessel.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Let me ask, what are you - you know, a lot of people have pointed to the people that are on the submersible and said some of them have a lot of experience, right? They've done -- they would know what to do in a situation like this. But you make a great point, there's nothing you can really do to some degree. When you are watching the captain of your ship operate, are there things that he was prepared for, are there protocols that you can go through, or is it really just try and make noise and pray?
GUILLEN: You know, that's a really good point. When we were prepping for the dive, up on - on the ship, the captain put us through a lot of orientation sessions and told us what might go wrong, told us stories about people in that situation when they panic and immediately they want to go to the escape hatch, which is, of course, a death sentence, because when you panic you're not thinking. So, I knew that when we collided, that's the thing I didn't want to do. I didn't wanted to go to that escape hatch. I wanted to make sure nobody else in that sub was. I was ready to gang tackle anybody who even looked at the escape hatch, right.
But, no. I mean, and I think that's the hardest thing, ,especially for an intellectual like me who lives by the model, for every problem there is an optimal solution. I mean I've drummed that into my son's head. For every problem there's an optimal solution. And it is the most terrifying thing to experience coming to the conclusion, no, there ain't a solution. There's no optimal solution. There is not solution period. There's just no one around.
And I - I imagine that at some point in these five folks who are in the Titan, they came to that realization. Even though you could have all the experience in the world, but at the end of the day, there's only so much you can do. And - and the idea that no amount of technology, no number of planes, ROVs, sonars, nothing, nothing can come to your rescue. If you're at the bottom of the ocean, two and a half miles down, you don't just go down there and reach in, even with a cable or a grappling hook. It's not that easy. The pressures are enormous. They're bone crushing. It's cold down there.
And so I just feel that -- I've just been feeling for the last 72 hours this kinship with those people down there. And it's almost like I'm down there with them because I know what it's like down there. It's utterly dark. There's no light. You don't certainly want to light a candle or anything in there, you'd use up the oxygen. Whether they have flashlights or not, who knows.
But this had to have been a catastrophic failure of some kind. And I'm not sure we'll ever, ever know because I'm not sure we'll ever recover that vessel.
HARLOW: Dr. Michael Guillen, thank you for taking us, literally, into what they may be experiencing. We appreciate it.
GUILLEN: You're welcome.
MATTINGLY: All right, we have new CNN reporting about Justice Samuel Alito and another trip he made that's raising eyebrows because of who paid for it.
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HARLOW: Welcome back.
We have new CNN reporting this morning about Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito and a trip he made to Rome last summer. A trip that was paid for by a religious liberty group that has submitted briefs before the court in support of significant cases. This comes after "ProPublica" reported yesterday that Alito went on a luxury fishing trip with conservative hedge fund manager Paul Singer, who's repeatedly asked the court to intervene on his behalf. Alito did not disclose this trip on his annual financial disclosures and he did also not recuse himself from Singer's case before the court.
Joining us now is CNN Supreme Court analyst Joan Biskupic.
Joan, good morning to you.
It's not uncommon for justices to travel overseas, to give speeches. This is different.
JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: That's right, Poppy. Good morning to you and Phil.
You know, travel is basically good. Especially when they go speak to groups, you know, it can have a very, you know, educational element to it. And even social travel, you know, up to Alaska is not in and of itself bad. It's who's footing the bill and whether the expense ends up getting reimbursed and disclosed on the annual financial forms that the justices disclose. You know, there's no such thing as a free lunch, and there's probably no such thing as a free trip to an Alaska fishing resort. And that was what was reported by "ProPublica" that you noted.
And our colleagues today have new reporting about a trip that Samuel Alito took last year to Rome in which the Notre Dame Religious Liberty Initiative paid for that. And that's a group that, as you say, when you refer to groups filing briefs, they submitted an amicus brief in the Dobbs anti-abortion rights case and other. An amicus isn't a main party to the case, but someone who has a vested interest in it. And the Notre Dame Religious Liberty group has been submitting more and more briefs. And they acknowledge paying for Justice Alito's trip to Rome.
Now, he may end up disclosing that one. He has gotten an extension to file on his current financial disclosure report. But this is what he said when my colleague, Devan Cole, reached out to the Supreme Court to find out, you know, why he took this trip and, you know, if - if there was any kind of conflict taking the trip on the Religious Liberty Initiative's dime. And what he said is, my understanding is that the Notre Dame Law School's Religious Liberty Initiative has a number of components, only one of which is the clinic. And the clinic is the group that submitted the brief. And he said, like legal clinics at many law schools, this amicus -- it files amicus briefs at the Supreme Court and I was not invited to speak in Rome by the clinic. He's drawing a line between the overall umbrella group and the clinic itself.
But, Poppy, the reason we're even talking about it today is just because there have been incident after incident where it's been disclosed that, you know, first Clarence Thomas and now Samuel Alito taking trips and undermining public confidence in the court because of the lack of full disclosure.
HARLOW: Sure.
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Yes, not to mention that he spoke about the Dobbs decision in that speech --
BISKUPIC: That's exactly right.
HARLOW: Before the group that had filed the brief, supporting it to go the way that the majority went. So, Joan -
BISKUPIC: You know, Poppy -
HARLOW: Yes.
BISKUPIC: That was the first time he even spoke about the Dobbs ruling was to that religious group.
HARLOW: Right.
BISKUPIC: Exactly right.
HARLOW: Yes.
Joan, thank you. And great reporting by Devan Cole and Audrey Ash as well.
MATTINGLY: Well, this just in, detained "Wall Street Journal" reporter Evan Gershkovich has lost an appeal in Moscow. What we're hearing from that courtroom, coming up next.
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MATTINGLY: Just moments ago, a Russian court upholding a decision to extend the detention of "Wall Street Journal" reporter Evan Gershkovich. This is video of Gershkovich appearing in a Moscow courtroom this morning. Now, "The Wall Street Journal" reporting is accused of spying. Something he, "The Journal" and the U.S. government vehemently deny.
Let's get to CNN's Nic Robertson with more on today's court hearing.
Nic.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, journalists were allowed in before the court session began. And the CNN team in there said that he looked nervous and agitated, which is unsurprising given the circumstance. Journalists were cleared out after being able to take those few photographs and the little bit of video. He was there in a t-shirt and jeans behind or inside that glass box.
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His parents were there for the hearing, brief as it was. Ella and Mikhail both emigrated to the United States decades and decades ago.
The other person of significance who was allowed in the courtroom, that was a U.S. ambassador. She said she wasn't able to speak directly with Evan in the courtroom. In fact, when she came out of the court, she again castigated the Russian authorities, said that three times she has requested counselor access and it's been turned down. Now the Russians are saying they are giving it consideration again. Don't know how long that will take. But she was very clear - the ambassador was very clear that Evan is being wrongly detained.
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LYNNE TRACY, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Today, in the courtroom, Evan continued to show remarkable strength and resiliency in these very difficult circumstances. Despite Russian officials' public assertions about Evan's activities, let me reiterate the U.S. government's firm position. The charges against him are baseless. He is an innocent journalist who was carrying out journalistic activities and has been wrongfully detained.
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ROBERTSON: And that is exactly, of course, what "The Wall Street Journal," his employers, are saying, too. It is very clear to everyone looking at this from overseas, and certainly from the U.S. government perspective, too, that this is a politically motivated case, that he was, as she says, just doing his job.
MATTINGLY: Nic Robertson, thanks so much for the reporting.
HARLOW: Officials fear there are just a few hours' worth of oxygen left onboard that missing sub. We'll take you back live to Canada as crews race to find the vessel.
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HARLOW: Well, this next story can very well be the plot of a Hollywood spy thriller, but it is not fiction. According to a new book, Russia tried to assassinate a CIA informant right here in the United States, in Miami. The alleged plot failed - was foiled, I should say, in 2020. The target, Alexander Potia (ph). According to the book, he is a former high-ranking Russian intelligence official who, in 2010, helped the FBI arrest 11 Russian spies who were living under deep cover right here in America. As the author writes, Putin blamed the failure of the SVR sleeper network on traitors. And he is reported to have said chilling, quote, traitors will kick the bucket, trust me.
Joining us now is the author Calder Walton. He is the author of this book "Spies: The Epic Intelligence War Between East and West," which is out now in the U.S. This new reporting is revealed in the British edition of the book due out later in a month.
But this is fascinating. "The New York Times" did a big piece on this as well. Those reporters triple checked what you had found, confirmed all of it. Take us inside this story.
CALDER WALTON, AUTHOR, "SPIES: THE EPIC INTELLIGENCE WAR BETWEEN EAST AND WEST": Well, thanks very much for having me on. I really appreciate it.
So, this story came to me as I was finishing the book. And it was a big gamble. I'm not an investigative journalist. I'm a historian. It was a big gamble to put it in there. And it's been nice, to put it mildly, to have "The New York Times" confirm my reporting.
The big thing about this story is, in my view, not so much the target, who bravely gave U.S. intelligence secrets from within Russian intelligence, it's not so much about him, it's more about the plot by the Russian government -
HARLOW: Yes.
WALTON: And what Putin's regime, his intelligence services, were, as "The New York Times" now confirms, trying to do in this country.
So, there's always been a bright red line to prevent that the Russian government would not conduct assassinations on U.S. soil. This was all the way through the Cold War. It has been, up until this point, apparently existing. And it appears now that Putin was willing to cross over that red line.
HARLOW: He's crossed it.
WALTON: And actually, conduct an assassination on U.S. soil.
MATTINGLY: (INAUDIBLE).
WALTON: It's absolutely profound.
MATTINGLY: When I read the headlines at first I thought, there's no way that's possible. There's no - there's rules, right? We all think that there's rules. There's red lines. This making clear that - I guess my question is, has this been a clear and intentional shift or has it been kind of moving in this direction over the course of Putin's time?
WALTON: Well, it's a great - it's a question. And to really conclusively answer that, we would need to get inside Putin's mind. And I don't have the ability to -
MATTINGLY: That's the next book.
WALTON: That's the next book I guess, right.
But - but I think when we look at it, there's a sort of - a crescendo of covert actions that Putin has authorized primarily in Europe, but - and also in Britain. So, Litvinenko, Alexander Litvinenko, a critic, was assassinated in London in 2006 using the extraordinary method of polonium-laced radioactive tea in central London. They radiated the streets of London. 2018, Putin's regime, his intelligence services, went after an MI-6 British spy, Sergei Skripal, in Britain.
HARLOW: Right.
WALTON: There was an assassination in 2018 of a Putin critic, a Chechen/Georgian leader in a Berlin park. There's been a crescendo of hits, assassinations, but never a - never in the U.S.
I think, my own view, this that this news now must cause U.S. authorities to go back and have a look at other unexplained deaths in the U.S.
HARLOW: Wow.
WALTON: There are people who are Putin critics who have been found dead, conveniently for Putin.
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And I hope that the U.S. authorities are now going back over some of those old cases.
HARLOW: Just shows how important -- you say you're not an investigative reporter.
