Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Search and Rescue Operations Continue for Missing Submersible Visiting Wreckage of Titanic; Remote Operated Vehicle Reaches Ocean Floor to Help Search for Missing Submersible; Former President Obama Gives Interview on Threats to Democracy Globally. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired June 22, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Just moments ago in the search for the missing sub near the Titanic shipwreck, a remote operated vehicle has reached the ocean floor. That is a positive sign to be able to continue that underwater search. We will take you live to Newfoundland.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And also new this morning, former President Obama sitting down for an exclusive interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour in Athens, Greece. What he is saying about the state of democracy around the world.

HARLOW: Also, Special Counsel Jack Smith is now indicating he might have multiple recordings of former President Donald Trump. This is in the classified documents case.

All of that and more. This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

MATTINGLY: Good morning, everyone. A remote operated vehicle has reached the ocean floor and is searching right now for the missing sub that vanished near the Titanic shipwreck. That's the new and significant announcement from just a short time ago from the U.S. Coast Guard. Sonar picked up banging sounds again yesterday. The Coast Guard has not been able to find where or what those noises are coming from.

You are looking at video of a Canadian surveillance plane dropping sonar probes. Now, it's part of that desperate search that is now entering a dire stage this morning. It is feared the five people onboard might have little to no breathable air left at this point. Also new overnight, OceanGate's founder and CEO who was piloting the Titanic submersible when it went missing is coming under more scrutiny. A former subcontractor who helped develop the sub says the construction materials and design choices were considered controversial and experimental.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUG VIRNIG, FORMER OCEANGATE SUBCONTRACTOR: The pressure hull itself on Titan is made out of primarily carbon fiber. Carbon fiber is a completely untested material in this application, and that has been many late-night discussions. (END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Miguel Marquez is live in St. John's, Newfoundland. And Miguel, even more ships are heading to the search area right now with special equipment. What's the latest?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there is salvage gear that arrived overnight in a U.S. military plane, a C-17, it's at the airport now. It will be transported down here and then put on a ship and then moved out there. But reminder, it takes about 24 hours to get from here to there, maybe 20 hours or so. But still, it's a long time when they have a dwindling window for saving these people if, in fact, they are alive.

The time that they estimated they might have for oxygen expires about now, but P.H. Nargeolet is on that craft. People I have spoken to here that know him, that know his abilities, say that he would have kept people calm in there, kept them breathing very shallowly so they could preserve as much oxygen as possible.

So searchers here, this is still very much a search and rescue mission and searchers are going to treat it as though they are alive. Important that they got an ROV down to the bottom and on the bed of the ocean in that area, but they still don't know exactly where the Titan submersible is. There is no beacon, no clear indication of where it is. Those banging noises you mentioned, they were described as banging noises by some. Coast Guard saying they might be banging, they might be something else. They are not entirely sure what they are, but it's their best clue right now. It is a sliver, a tiny sliver of hope and they are grabbing on to that, moving to the area where they heard that sound in the hopes of finding them and being able to rescue them.

If they can locate that submersible, then they'd have to get the salvage gear out there, get it down to it, and literally tow it to the top. Back to you guys.

MATTINGLY: Several steps ahead, hoping they can find the submersible. Miguel Marquez, thanks so much.

HARLOW: Let's go now to someone who has written extensively about another famous sub rescue mission, the miraculous rescue of the crew of the Pisces III submarine after that vessel sank more than 1,500 feet below the North Atlantic in 1973. Stephen McGinty, he is an award winning journalist and the author of "The Dive, The Untold Story of the World's Deepest Submarine Rescue." We really appreciate you being with us. I am sure that you have a different perspective than so many given all of your reporting on what happened and the miracle of 1973. What is different now about the ability to find and rescue people in a situation like this?

STEPHEN MCGINTY, AUTHOR, "THE DIVE, THE UNTOLD STORY OF THE WORLD'S DEEPEST SUBMARINE RESCUE": Well, what's fascinating is that the rescuers are finding themselves in the same situation today as the men back in -- sorry, 50 years ago in 1973, because the Titan is deeper than any other submarine that has been rescued. Pisces III was in the same position, it was 1,700 feet down, whereas the Titan, as we know is about 12,000 feet down if it's down by the Titanic.

[08:05:01]

Ironically, the system that could potentially get it to the surface is similar to the rescue in 1973. In 1973 there was a massive rescue operation involving Americans flying from San Diego carrying a remote operated vehicle, the Canadians bringing over small Pisces-type submarine, and the Brits also bringing a small Pisces-type machine. So effectively, what happened was they pooled their resources, and the difference then was that they were able to -- they were in constant communication with the Pisces III, with the man Roger Chapman, Roger Mallinson, which tragically, is the situation we are not in today.

But they also the same situation that the men on the surface today have, which is they didn't know where the Pisces was initially. The face was back in 1973, the way that they kept track of these small submarines was they had a buoy on the surface which was attached to the submarine using a very, very long stretch of rope. You think of the scene in "Jaws" with the barrels on the surface. That's how they tracked it. Unfortunately, the Pisces, when it first got to the surface, it disconnected that buoy and then it sank. So they had no idea where it was initially.

MATTINGLY: I think when people compare the depth of where the Pisces was versus where this submersible is now, there are several differences, including communication. You think this is not going to end the way it ended in 1973. But there have been major technological advances in terms of a search-and-recovery capability. Is that a fair assessment of things?

MCGINTY: There has been. And the irony is, one of the men onboard Pisces III, Roger Chapman, was a submariner with the Royal Navy before he went into the commercial field and was on Pisces. He developed one of the submarines that are used today in terms of transferring men from one submarine to another when it becomes bad. The problem is that it only operates at a depth of about 1,000 or 1,500 feet.

However, the RUV vehicles can go down much, much deeper. And that's what will be required. Ironically, I know it's a very, very thin sliver of hope that the success of the rescue could be successful, but the irony is we would be using the same method. It would be a remote- controlled vehicle getting down to the depth and attaching something on to the submarine and then hauling them to the surface.

HARLOW: Wow. You wrote about what that crew that was miraculously rescued in 1973 went through, their fears, fear of carbon dioxide poisoning, a lack of food. What insight can you give us from just the human response and the human toll from them?

MCGINTY: Well, there was some of them after the recovery seeing how calm it was and how everyone was comfortable, and that was clearly the British stiff upper lip on display. It was a desperately worrying and concerning time. They had to remain -- Roger Mallinson was always thinking about how to -- how the rescue could be carried out, and Roger Chapman appreciated there was nothing they could do. It was best that they both remain as calm as possible, did as little talking as possible. Slept when they could. But they also went through massive amounts of pain as a consequence of rationing the use of the scrubber. The scrubber is what takes the carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere and has to be operated. And you can have all the oxygen you need. If you can't get rid of the carbon dioxide, that will kill you.

And so they had to ration the use of the scrubber, which produced agonizing headaches and made them very, very sick at the time. So it was an ordeal. And the irony was that the worst part of the rescue was hauling them to the surface, because there was a storm at the time. So the vessel at the top was rise up and going down, up and down, and so when it towed them to the surface they were being shook about like a fish, and they found it extremely, extremely difficult.

HARLOW: Stephen McGinty, the perspective is surreal. Thank you very, very much for sharing with us.

MCGINTY: Thank you.

HARLOW: Another Republican throwing his name in the 2024 race for the White House. Will Hurd is running. Remember, we asked him last week, are you running? He's running.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:12:56]

MATTINGLY: This morning, CNN's Christiane Amanpour just had an exclusive one-on-one sit-down with former President Barack Obama. The two are in Athens, Greece, the birthplace of democracy, and had a very candid discussion about the war on Ukraine, the upcoming U.S. election, and how to navigate a global, very global, very tricky relationship with autocratic leaders. Christiane will join us in a moment. First, here is part of that conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: President Biden, a man who you know extremely well, has made the defense of democracy the sort of centerpiece of his administration. It just so happens that right now there is also not just threats to democracy by dictatorships and autocrats, but also illiberal democracy as well. He has called the president of China a dictator and they are sticking with it. He also hosted, as we speak, the prime minister of India, Modi, who is considered autocratic, or at least illiberal democrat. What is the point, I guess, or how should a president engage with those kinds of leaders, either in the naming of them or the dealing with them?

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Look, it's complicated. The president of the United States has a lot of equities. And when I was president, I would deal with figures, in some cases who were allies, who, if you press me in private, do they run their governments and their political parties in ways that I would say are ideally democratic? I would have to say no.

AMANPOUR: Do you want to name names? OBAMA: No, of course not. But you had to do business with them,

because they are important for national security reasons. There are a range of economic interests. I dealt with China to get the Paris Accords done. I dealt with Modi to get the Paris Accords done because I think climate change is something that transcends any particular momentary issues. It's a problem that humanity has got to deal with over the next several decades in a serious way.

[08:15:00]

I do think that it is appropriate for the President United States where he or she can, to uphold those principles and to challenge whether behind closed doors or in public trends that are troubling. And so, I'm less concerned about labels than I'm concerned about, you know, specific practices.

You know, I think it is important for the President United States to say that if you have Uyghurs, in China, who are being placed in mass camps, and re-educated, quote, unquote. That's a problem, that's a challenge to all of us. And we have to pay attention to it. I think it is true that if the President meets with Prime Minister Modi, then, the protection of the Muslim minority in a majority Hindu India, that's something worth mentioning. Because -- and by the way, if I had a conversation with Prime Minister Modi, who I know well.

Part of my argument would be that, if you do not protect the rights of ethnic minorities in India, then there is a strong possibility India at some point, starts pulling apart. And we've seen what happens when you start getting those kinds of large internal conflicts. So, that would be contrary to the interests not just of Muslim, India, but also Hindu India. So, I think it's important to be able to talk about these things, honestly, you're never going to have things that are never going to be as clean as you'd like.

AMANPOUR: Right.

OBAMA: Because the world is complicated.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Oh, Christiane, likely join us later. She also does special coming on the entirety of that interview later tonight.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Which I'm very much looking forward to.

HARLOW: 10:00 p.m. Eastern. It's going to be amazing.

MATTINGLY: 10:00 p.m. Eastern, see you right there, tune in for that. Right now, we want to bring in CNN Political Analyst, Senior Political Correspondent at the New York Times, Maggie Haberman. Maggie, I want to talk about everything that you're deeply engaged in covering every single day. But I'm just listening to that, I think the President, the former President has certainly been more candid since he left office. But digging in on a very central issue to the current President, but also, I think, to somebody with the campaign coming up.

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think the campaign coming up, I think that, you know, he was talking primarily about relations with foreign leaders. But realistically, it can apply to your point domestically, too. And I think that this is an argument that actually you haven't seen in very many Democrats make about the pro-democracy efforts. Which is that it's complicated, that it's not clean cut, it's not, you know, it's not up and down always.

And that sometimes you have to make decisions that are not necessarily in keeping with other professed ideals. But because there is a broader world out there. I do wonder how much we're going to see President Obama out there making arguments like this that supplement what President Biden has been saying. I mean, I think that there's always one of the concerns that Democrats have, particularly people around Joe Biden have.

Is that Obama, is such a better communicator, such a more natural communicator, that is there going to be that inevitable comparison with Obama. I think it speaks to the moment we're in and the moment that Democrats find themselves in. You know, I don't know how much of this Obama is discussing with the White House. I don't know how much of this is just him wanting to make his voice heard. But I do wonder if it portends hearing from him more going forward.

HARLOW: It's also just really interesting timing that he's doing this right after as Christiane, pointed out, Biden at that fundraiser in San Francisco. You know, called Xi a dictator, and then, the fact that he is hosting Modi. The White House, we should know do get some concessions agreements are going to hold a joint press conference. It's a big deal, Modi didn't want to do that. He doesn't do that in India. So, journalists will be able to ask him these hard questions too. Do you think we'll hear from the White House whether or not President Biden brought up these many human rights concerns? Like treatment of journalists in India?

HABERMAN: Yes, I actually think that's something that the White House will likely address. I think that they tend to be willing to engage in issues like that. I think that whether they're going to want to have a broader conversation about to your point, the contradictions between, you know, clearly outlining Xi.

HARLOW: In the same week?

HABERMAN: In the same week, and when Xi, when you're in such different circumstances, right? When you're hosting Modi in person. So, you know, I do think this is going to be a contradiction, they are going to get pushed on. Again, I think the point that Obama is making is that when you speak in absolutes, you are going to get questions like that even if your commitment is absolute to democracy and to democracies globally that we are living in a complicated world.

MATTINGLY: Maggie, stick with us because we actually have Christiane Amanpour with us now, after that interview. We just heard a block of that Interview. Christiana, we're just talking about with Maggie have kind of fascinating was in the dynamic and a candid the President -- AMANPOUR: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- was former President was to some degree. What was your sense of thing after talking to him?

[08:20:10]

AMANPOUR: Well, look, you know, this is the question, right? President Biden has made defending democracy, the centerpiece of his administration. Look at Ukraine, obviously, the defense of democratic Ukraine. But as they say, you know, it's complicated. There's real politic, you can go all the way back to Kissinger for that kind of, you know, foreign policy of trying to maintain stability. I think what you're seeing, and you've probably already discussed this, many Democrats don't like this.

They see that Modi is autocratic, that Modi is cracking down on the press, on religious minorities, the Muslim minority on political opposition. And that is, you know, autocratic, or at the very least illiberal democracy. However, as you know, there is a very, very keen desire to try to win Modi over to try to help him peel away from China. The entire focus, it looks like at the moment of America's foreign policy is on China.

And therefore, they're trying to get as much support as they can, including, they're trying to get India support to bolster the -- I'm not the confrontation, but the idea of trying to make sure that China doesn't pose an even more dangerous threat. But again, it's risky, of course. Modi has not an India has not gone ahead with many of the U.N. resolutions against Russia on this Ukraine war, keeps buying Russian oil. So, there's a lot to be discussed between them.

HARLOW: Christiane , this is an exclusive interview, the fact that you've got so much time with former President Obama in this moment.

AMANPOUR: Yes.

HARLOW: I always just saying to Phil, you're the perfect person to interview him in this moment. Can you give us a little bit of a highlight of what people will see tonight?

AMANPOUR: Yes, well, it is an amazing time to get this interview because the former President is very, very, very much engaged in the promotion of global democracy and the strengthening of American democracy. He's here as part of his foundation with dozens, if not more than a hundred of what they call Global Youth Leaders from his foundation. Men and women, young men and women who they're trying to help really connect together and build and strengthen all the aspects of democracy from a grassroots, a vision, if you like around the world. Because here we are in Athens, the birthplace of modern democracy.

So, essentially, we talked about the U.S. democracy, we talked about what he called creaky institutions around the world that need to be strengthened even in the U.S. I asked him about the spectacle of a former President who's been indicted on federal charges, actually running for office, the highest office in the land, perhaps the world. And he said, of course, it's not ideal, but it is absolutely fundamental for Americans and others around the world to see that America upholds the rule of law, and that the law applies to everybody.

He said, that was absolutely fundamental, and I'll say another thing too. He spoke at length about global and U.S. inequality and inequity in income inequality, and all the other inequalities that are so fundamental to the degradation of democracy in both the U.S. and around the world. And to be fair, and I'm just going to say it he said, you know, the submarine, the submersible, sinking, and we don't quite know what's going to happen is a terrible tragedy.

And yet, not enough, you know, resources and attention was put on 750 poor people who were caught in the boat off the coast of Greece, where we are right now. And who almost all have died, except for maybe just over a hundred people were saved. You know, these are the kinds of inequalities and all that goes with trying to rectify inequality, that's going to be necessary in order to preserve democracy.

HARLOW: Right. You can't argue with that. I mean, we were just talking earlier about how many Pakistanis are still missing. And the dire economic circumstances that country is in for example. So, it is -- it is all tied together. Christiane , I will stay up late for you to watch this because it will be extraordinary. We really appreciate it. Joining us live from Athens, Greece. You'll see this full exclusive one on one Christiane and the former President on democracy it is tonight 10:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN. Be right back.

[08:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: I was just saying just moments ago. Former Texas Congressman Will Hurd announcing he will enter the Republican Primary in the race for the White House. He made the announcement just moments ago on CBS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILL HURD (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I want to everybody know that this morning, my file to be the Republican nominee for President of the United States. This is a decision that my wife and I decided to do because we live in complicated times, and we need common sense. There are a number of generational defining challenges that we're faced with in the United States of America.

Everything from the Chinese government trying to surpass us as the global superpower. The fact that inflation is persistent at a time when technologies like Artificial Intelligence is going up in every single industry. And our kids are their scores in math, science and reading are the lowest they've ever been in this century. These are the issues we should be talking about. And to be frank, I'm pissed that we're not talking about these things.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTINGLY: Let's bring in CNN's Eva McKend. Eva, tell us where this goes from here and now that he's in.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: Well, the field certainly getting more crowded, Phil. Listen, former Congressman Will Hurd, essentially argues that no one in the field is adequately confronting the former President. He served in Congress for three terms. He's a former CIA operative. He served actually in a very large district along the U.S.-Mexico border. He was known during the time for driving around the entire district. Not only is he an outspoken critic of the former President, he's also really brutally indicted his own party, arguing that far too much time has been spent on the --

[08:30:00]