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CNN This Morning

U.S. Navy Detected Sub Implosion Sunday; India's Prime Minister Modi Toasts U.S. Alliance; Obama: People Are Living In Two Different Realities. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired June 23, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

CAPT. PETER BOYNTON (RET.), U.S. COAST GUARD: Disaster, ironically and sadly, in the exact same place. And it is time to look again at those regulations in international waters, not on the surface but subsurface. And I also think what can we do with regulations and inspections to accomplish them at the speed of innovation?

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: Good point.

BOYNTON: Are there changes we can make there?

SOLOMON: Yes.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL AND NEW JERSEY STATE PROSECUTOR: You know, the courts and the law, if I can add to that, really have an important role here because the investigation of this will sort of have two aspects.

There will be the forensic investigation. What can they tell from the remains of the vessel and that type of thing.

But then there's also a need for an internal investigation. What was happening within the company? What were they warned out? What steps did they take? What steps did they ignore?

And one of the main ways you are going to figure that out is through legal investigation, either through -- if there are civil lawsuits here from the survivor family -- excuse me, from the surviving family of the victims, then I think it's very likely you're going to get the internal documents in the discovery process and those could become public and a very important part of the sort of educational process here.

If there's a criminal investigation, then investigators will be able to subpoena that information and really see what went wrong inside the company -- engineering-wise, business-wise, innovation-wise.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. I'm going to go ahead and move this. (Moving coffee cup).

HONIG: Please do. That was close.

MATTINGLY: It's bad. I had a bad experience with this.

HONIG: You and me together and stuff spills.

MATTINGLY: It's like my life flashed before my eyes. Been there. It was a bad -- it was a bad day.

I think we're -- the thing I take from this and what both of you guys are saying there's always the tension, right? The tension between business and regulation.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT, ANCHOR, "EARLY START": Of course.

MATTINGLY: The tension between business and law. The tension between innovation and safety.

When you look at kind of the sphere of adventure tourism --

ROMANS: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- and for people who drive this, both on the consumer side but also on the development side, that tension is going to always be -- exist, and also the boundaries are always going to be pushed.

ROMANS: Absolutely, and these are risk-takers we're talking about.

MATTINGLY: Right.

ROMANS: Thrill-seekers, risk-takers -- people who, in many cases, built their wealth. And we're talking about high-net-worth individuals who go for this market, right? This is $30 million or more. These are people who don't like to hear no and want to have this kind of an experience.

And I think that when you look at whether it's going to Everest, a 24- day private jet trip around the world, these speed -- aviation speed races around the world that some -- and going to space, all of these are frontiers that have a huge market. There are waiting lists to go to space, for example, and that costs up to $450,000 to be a private astronaut. And there's a waiting list to do it and there are plenty of people with the money.

By the way, that ultra-high-net-worth group -- $30 million wealth or more -- the size of that group has grown 44 -- grown 44 percent since 2017. So it's a --

SOLOMON: Yes.

ROMANS: -- it's a big --

MATTINGLY: Grown, yes.

ROMANS: -- and growing group of very rich people who want to take these risks in the name of exploration --

SOLOMON: Yes. ROMANS: -- in many cases, as one of our guests said.

SOLOMON: That group has gotten bigger, as well as this industry has gotten bigger, right?

All of you guys, thank you so much for hanging with us. Stick around and we'll talk to you a little bit later.

MATTINGLY: All right, over to you, Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": The U.S. -- yes, the U.S. Navy detected sound of an implosion, as we know, on Sunday, which was followed by days of that multinational search and rescue mission.

We're going to speak to a retired Navy diver about why we're just learning about what the Navy found on Sunday ahead.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:37:08]

COOPER: And welcome back. We're live in St. John's, Newfoundland at the scene of a dayslong massive search and rescue mission for the Titanic-bound submersible that imploded with five people on board. This is where many of the craft involved in the search took off from.

A senior Navy official tells CNN that the Navy detected the sound of an implosion on Sunday and relayed that information to the on-scene commanders. The official said the sound of the implosion was determined to be, quote, "not definitive."

Joining us now is retired U.S. Navy master diver David Gove who served in that position for 32 years. David, I appreciate you joining us.

The U.S. Navy detected this implosion Sunday and said it was not definitive. Why do you think we learned about that just days later?

DAVID GOVE, U.S. NAVY MASTER DIVER (RET.), MASTER DIVER, D&W MARINE SERVICE MANAGEMENT (via Skype): The words "not definitive." If it wasn't definitive they didn't report it because they were under scrutiny from different elements of the press and they wanted to see if there were survivors underwater. That's why.

COOPER: When you hear people say well look, this was -- this was pushing the bounds of science and that's why it didn't go through the maritime protocols -- the -- going through safety checks that other submersible vehicles go through -- that essentially, that system can't keep up with innovation -- what do you think?

GOVE: Well -- so in my career, I've done deep stuff and I've done things with the SEALS and now, the PRs where I -- where I work with D&W. A great organization, by the way.

What happens with that is if you have a vehicle -- a platform -- a diving thing -- whatever it is, and it's not certified, and you certify it in your company, that's an experimental rig is what that is. That's not something -- I agree with James Cameron on that. That's not something that you take passengers on.

And when you look at the people that was on the sub that was missing there was a businessman/diver that was driving. There was a guy that was a freelance guy that was a pilot that was a big adventurer. There was a father, a son billionaire. And then one more person. And you really don't do that with an experimental rig.

If you want to take the chance that you're going to die, then take the chance. But I -- but in the Navy we don't do that. We have something that certifies all life support equipment, which is called the "Authorized for Navy" which is military use that's screened by NAVSEA. And once it's certified it can then be used.

[07:40:10]

COOPER: It does seem like the Titan had made successful journeys to the Titanic before. But the point that James Cameron made is you can have successful journeys multiple times but there can be degradation over time of the systems on a vehicle. And again, we don't know exactly what happened with the hull of this -- of this vehicle but it seems like even if it had successful dives in the past, over time it can wear down.

GOVE: It's kind of like a clothes hanger where you bend it, bend it, bend it, and it heats up. When you flex that hull too many times -- you have three tons of pressure -- pounds per square inch pressure at the depth they were at. When you come up you don't have any on it except for 14.7, which is our atmosphere. When you flex that thing enough times it can take a small microscopic tear in the weld or anything else and if water intrudes it's going to rip that thing right open. And I believe that's what happened with it.

COOPER: Yes.

David Gove, I appreciate your expertise. Thank you for being with us.

Back to you guys in New York.

MATTINGLY: All right, thanks, Anderson. We'll be back to you shortly.

But also paying attention to this. The Biden administration working over the course of the last several days to strengthen U.S. ties with India -- clearly evident in Prime Minister Narendra Modi's elaborate state visit. Last night was the big dinner. We'll give you a look at that lavish White House dinner, the high-profile guests, and also the visit itself coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:45:17]

SOLOMON: Welcome back. CNN is live in Newfoundland following the catastrophic implosion of the Titan submersible. We'll get back out there in just moments. But first, last night, President Biden and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi saluting the alliance between their two countries at a lavish state dinner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A toast to our partnership, to our people, and to the possibilities that lie ahead. Two great friends, two great nations, and two great powers -- cheers.

NARENDRA MODI, PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA: To the everlasting bonds of friendship between India and the United States -- cheers.

BIDEN: Cheers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: The toast there followed a day filled with the usual pomp and ceremony of a state visit and the extremely unusual sight of Modi taking a question from the media at an exhaustively negotiated news conference. Responding through a translator about his crackdowns on dissent and his treatment of religious minorities, Modi said there is no space for discrimination and that if there are no human rights then it's not a democracy.

Meantime, coming up for us, whistleblowers say that the IRS recommended far more charges, including felonies, against Hunter Biden. Why they say those charges were never filed.

COOPER: And we're live this morning in Newfoundland as we continue to learn more about the Titanic-bound submersible that suffered a catastrophic implosion with five people on board. More from here ahead.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:50:30]

MATTINGLY: Welcome back.

Well, the search for answers continues after the Titan submersible suffered a catastrophic implosion with five people on board. Now, we'll get back to Anderson in Newfoundland shortly.

But first, a CNN exclusive interview with former President Barack Obama. Our Christiane Amanpour sat down with him in Athens to get his thoughts on the state of democracy and the 2024 election -- watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When people are getting such fundamentally different facts or what they think to be facts, and their world views are so skewed in one direction or another, then it's very hard for democracy to work. This constant demonization of the other side making people fearful of each other. And unfortunately, I think that's going to be a problem that gets even more pronounced with the advent of AI and deep fakes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Joining us now to discuss the interview and more, former White House communications director Alyssa Farah Griffin. And Josh Barro, the man behind the "Very Serious," and a very serious man, podcast and newsletter.

Josh, I want to start with you on that point because the question that I have often had over the course of the last several years --

JOSH BARRO, WRITER, "VERY SERIOUS" NEWSLETTER, HOST, "VERY SERIOUS" PODCAST: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- and quiet and sometimes dark moments, is there doesn't seem to be like anything that would incentive a deceleration of those factors former President Obama is pointing to, right?

BARRO: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Whether it's social media or whether it's the news cycles -- anything that forces people to send the pendulum back the other way.

BARRO: Yes, and I -- and I think we haven't hit -- I mean, when he references AI and deep fakes at the end, I think -- you know, we've seen sort of amusing things. There was that photo of the Pope in the, like, -- in the, like, very --

SOLOMON: Puffer jacket.

BARRO: -- fashionable puffer jacket and everyone sort of knows this is fake.

MATTINGLY: I did not. Actually, I loved it.

BARRO: Well, but -- yes. But the -- but I -- we haven't really seen, I think, the first news cycle where you have something of that nature that really fools a very large number of people and what effect that has on our -- on our politics. So, yes, I think -- I think he's right that that's a concern.

But at the same time, I think people sometimes overstate the extent to which politics in the past were either less acrimonious or more fact- based. I mean, people -- conspiracy theories have been around forever. People said that we faked the moon landing decades ago. And you had really nasty ad hominem politics between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams over 200 years ago.

So I think that, to some extent, this is a -- this is a fact of democracy, not specifically a fact of our new and modern democracy, and we've muddled through it in the past.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: But I do think there's something about the democratization of media and the fact that information spreads at just the most rapid rate it ever has in history.

SOLOMON: And sometimes siloed, which Obama talked about last night.

GRIFFIN: Siloed. That's what I thought was very interesting is if you even compare it to when President Obama was in office -- he was kind of the first social media president -- how much more we have now -- the number of platforms. The people who are getting their news not from any traditional sources and from very opinion-based, whether on the right or the left. It unquestionably has an impact on the elections.

SOLOMON: I want to ask. He was asked about -- Obama was asked about this visit from the prime minister of India and Christiane asked should he be engaging with certain leaders -- essentially, I'm paraphrasing -- and Obama said even he has had to engage when he was president with leaders that privately he might have had a different conversation.

Talk to me about the tension between the strategic necessity of some of these relationships and perhaps the political tension that creates.

GRIFFIN: So, I'm actually fundamentally on the side that the president absolutely should have met with Prime Minister Modi. I went with Vice President Pence when we met with him in Singapore, probably in 2019.

There are many democratic issues and human rights issues that India has to deal with. This is the fifth-largest economy in the world and going to be one of our most valuable partners in the Indo-Pacific against China. So this is a broader strategic move of we need more allies in the existential threat that we face from China than we need fewer.

SOLOMON: And the most populous, yes.

GRIFFIN: So I think it was the right thing to do.

It did raise some eyebrows that Hunter Biden was there with him at the state dinner but that's another conversation.

MATTINGLY: No -- but actually, I think it's part of a conversation that I wanted to have with you guys in the sense of -- first off, he's the son. He's been to state dinners in the past. I'm not -- I'm never surprised when he is physically by the president's side. I think the president likes that to some degree.

However, obviously, he is in the process of a plea deal on charges that were being weighed for several months by a U.S. attorney in Delaware. But there's also the investigation and the results of the investigational process due to two whistleblowers the House Republicans kind of laid out some details on yesterday.

What are your -- what's your read on that and their call for there needs to be more investigation? Perhaps this connects to the president, which has always been denied vehemently by the White House. BARRO: Yes. Well, I mean, I think it's something where there will be more investigation. I mean, you have these claims from these two IRS employees saying that they -- that their efforts to push for more serious charges and to investigate in certain ways were stymied by the Department of Justice.

[07:55:08]

You also have a specific factual disagreement where the IRS whistleblower says that the -- that David Weiss, the U.S. attorney for Delaware, was not allowed to bring charges in Washington, D.C. or in Los Angeles when he -- when he attempted to do so. And that's something that has been denied by David Weiss and also by the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C., and by the attorney general. So I assume there's a fact of the matter about that question and it's one that Congress will be able to get to with more interviews.

The Democrats have been pointing out that it's irregular to release the results of these two interviews before they actually even interviewed dozens of other federal employees who would also be able to describe what had happened here.

It's not -- it's not uncommon to have disagreements within enforcement agencies or between two relevant enforcement agencies about which charges should be brought and which cases should be brought.

It's very difficult to prove the sort of felony tax charges that they -- that they could conceivably have brought against Hunter Biden -- the intent requirements there. What you have to show that people knew about what they were -- what they were legally obligated to do that they didn't.

So it's -- I want to see more about it. But it's not terribly uncommon for these things to plead out as misdemeanors.

MATTINGLY: Yes. The one thing you definitely know, Congress House Republicans definitely still going to be looking into it.

BARRO: Right.

MATTINGLY: Josh Barro, Alyssa Farah Griffin, thanks, guys as always.

SOLOMON: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: I want to take us back out to Anderson Cooper right now.

COOPER: Phil, new insight into what could have gone wrong with that Titan submersible that ultimately led to its catastrophic implosion. Plus, we'll speak with someone who had planned to make this same trip on the Titan. We're live here in Newfoundland next.

(COMMERCIAL)