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Russia Accuses Wagner Chief Of Urging "Armed Rebellion"; Wagner Chief Claims To Have Seized Control Of Key Military Facilities In 2 Russian Cities; Putin Says Those On A "Path Of Treason" Or Preparing Armed Rebellion Will Be Punished. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired June 24, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:00:35]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting today from London. We're following breaking news out of Russia right now, very dramatic developments raising serious questions about President Vladimir Putin's grip on power. Putin is accusing the Wagner Mercenary Group of what he's calling an armed rebellion. The head of the Wagner group, Yevgeny Prigozhin says his forces have taken control of military facilities in the region of Rostov-on-Don. The Russian Governor in the Kursk Region is calling on Prigozhin to abandon his plans but Prigozhin threatens to move on to Moscow. Yes, Moscow. If Russia is top general and Defense Minister, don't meet with him, listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN, HEAD, WAGNER GROUP: Again, we came here. We want to receive the Chief of General Staff and Shoigu until they aren't here. Until they aren't here, we will be located here, blockading the City of Rostov, and we'll go to Moscow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Very dramatic indeed, the Russian President Putin calls the actions by Prigozhin a betrayal and a stab in the back his words to the Russian people. And he says those who follow him will pay the price.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT: All those who deliberately chose the path of treachery, who prepared an armed mutiny, who chose the path of blackmail and terrorist methods will face inevitable punishment and will answer both to the law and to our people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We're following all these developments on what's happening in Russia with our reporters and our analysts. Let's get an update right now, on what is happening in Russia right now. Our Chief International Correspondent Nick Payton Walsh is tracking developments for us. Nick, first of all bring us up to speed.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yet another development which seems to suggest concerns that this Wagner military convoy that appears to be trying to move towards Moscow at least says loudly that its ambition may be threatening to continue moving. The Governor of a Lipetsk area that neighbors Voronezh where we do appear to have seen signs that Wagner military forces have least moved into or moved through.

The Governor of Lipetsk is telling people to stay indoors, to stay calm. Now that may simply just be a bid to ensure their safety but this is yet another stop on the highway from Rostov-on-Don, the southern military hub that Wagner forces sort of calmly walked into it seems last night another stop on the Highway north towards Moscow.

Absurd, frankly, to even feel I'm reporting this, the notion of an armed insurrection inside Russia that's currently got its sights set on the Capitol. We've heard from the Governor of Voronezh, that key town halfway on the road up towards the Capitol, that combat measures have been begun by the Russian military, and those videos suggesting damage to an old facility in that town. And indeed, Russian state media reporting that an MI8 attack helicopter made a hard landing in that area. It's possible that it's all related to the same clashes around that particular area. But the ultimate question for us in the hours and days ahead is what is left of the Russian military inside of Russia.

So much of it is sent to the frontlines inside of Ukraine that is willing to stop this Wagner advance. Wagner do appear to have been relatively large in number and prepared as they made these moves yesterday. This whole dispute it seems going on for months but coming to a head yesterday when Prigozhin and its leader put out a lengthy statement questioning the rationale for the war and its conduct essentially telling Russians they've been lied to. That was it seems he says met by an air strike on a camp by -- of Wagner's inside of Ukraine. That seems to have led his forces to be marching towards Rostov. They've been pictured relaxed in that essentially equivalent of Tampa, Florida, where SIMCOM is based for the Pentagon, a key Russian military hub with Wagner fighters relaxingly sitting around there in according to videos that we've seen.

That may change as the Russian military begins to pull its response together. But ultimately, this is now about Vladimir Putin's grip on the country. He's never faced anything like this. This has frankly seemed inconceivable over the past two decades. And now one of his former loyalists, bagman is marching towards his capital, Wolf.

BLITZER: And then -- and just to be precise on this, Nick. Give us some perspective Rostov-on-Don it's maybe not well known outside of Russia but militarily speaking it's a very significant location and -- and not all that far away from Moscow either.

[08:05:16] WALSH: No, not that far from Moscow but more importantly very close to Ukraine, to the territories that Russia occupies since 2014, adjacent for most of them. It's been the hub for Russia's wars in Chechnya, for their invasion at times of Georgia in 2008. And for the repeated invasions of Ukraine. This is the key Russian military city in the south and you might argue nationwide. And now it is in the control, for the most part, it seems of the Wagner mercenary group, part of what the Kremlin calls, terrorist methods blackmail, and what is clearly a mutiny aimed at it seems at this point, unseating possibly not only the top brass of Russia, judging by the rhetoric we've heard from Yevgeny Prigozhin calling Vladimir Putin mistaken and it may end up being that if this progresses to Moscow, it actually challenges that Vladimir Putin is placed in the Kremlin as well. But that's yet to be seen. But we are now into a frankly, existential moment between Prigozhin and Putin, and quite who perseveres through this moment will define the future of the Ukraine war, certainly but also the fate of this nuclear power.

BLITZER: And if in fact, Prigozhin's Wagner troops are in control of Rostov, that's a huge embarrassment to Putin and the Russian military. Right now, Nick Paton Walsh on the scene for us. We'll stay in very close touch with you as well.

We're told by the way that the Whitehouse is very closely monitoring these emerging power struggle developments inside Russia. CNNs Priscilla Alvarez is joining us from the Whitehouse right now. Priscilla, what are you learning over there?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. Whitehouse officials are actively monitoring this unfolding situation. And as of yesterday evening, we know that President Biden had been briefed. Now in a statement, the National Security Council spokesman said the following. "We are monitoring the situation and will be consulting with allies and partners on these developments." So short and concise there. But clear that the Whitehouse is paying close attention. Now, of course, we've also heard from administration officials who say that National Security officials at the Whitehouse, while they're watching closely are being careful and cautious as to when to weigh in as all of this is moving rapidly. We also know that as of early January, there had been indications in U.S. Intelligence that there was a power struggle between the mercenary group, the mercenary Wagner group, and the Russian government. And over the course of time, they have continued to collect intelligence on this matter, which indicates to us that the Whitehouse has seen this as a power struggle and one that could cause instability. And, of course, have ramifications on the war in Ukraine.

Now, a key part of that statement I mentioned earlier is the talks with allies and partners, of course, over the course of the war in Ukraine. There have been regular conversations with allies and partners abroad and the Whitehouse and President Biden. And so we'll look out to see today what conversations are continuing to happen as we get that trickle of statements from NATO, from Poland, and from other countries that they too, are monitoring this and being briefed on this. So waiting to hear more, Wolf, on when President Biden will issue a statement if he does, but also who he is talking to in the hours to come.

BLITZER: Yeah, very, very significant indeed. The U.S. watching all of this very, very closely. Priscilla Alvarez at the Whitehouse will stay in close touch with you as well.

Joining us now CNN Political and national Security Analyst, David Sanger. David, thanks for joining us. Putin's future is on the line presumably right now. Prigozhin has seen what happens to people who crossed Putin in the past. He wouldn't do this, presumably, if he didn't think he has enough support to win either in the FSB, or in the Defense Ministry, the FSB, their Russian intelligence agency. Do you think we know that the cards that Prigozhin is actually holding? He has to be very careful right now given the fact that he has directly challenged Putin.

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He does. And I think what's really, truly remarkable about this moment, Wolf, probably three remarkable things. First, until now, we have suspected that there would be cracks at some point because of the war in Putin's regime. We haven't really seen any other than this tug-of-war that had gone on between Prigozhin and the Defense Ministry. And Putin allowed that to happen until last night or this morning when he gave his -- this morning Moscow time when he gave his speech. And there while he'd never mentioned Prigozhin name directly, he clearly referred to him as a traitor and made it clear he was going to crush this movement.

So somehow a man who has grown up with Putin, you know, in St. Petersburg, was known as Putin chef, was considered a loyalist, Putin has now turned on thinking that he can no longer afford this. I think the second important thing out of this is that no matter how this turns out, the Russian people have heard Prigozhin make the case that the war was started on sort of fraudulent circumstances.

And the third thing is, among the things we don't know, is whether Prigozhin has any influence over those additional Russian units that have control over missiles, including we believe some tactical nuclear weapons. So that's really what the Whitehouse is focused on, nuclear control.

[08:10:42]

BLITZER: So far in his public statements Prigozhin, as you know, David has been rather careful to say he's targeting senior military leaders. He's been careful not to necessarily directly accuse Putin of wrongdoing. But does anyone in Russia believe he will stop with the leaders over at the -- let's say, the Ministry of Defense? Is there a reality where precautions forces actually begin to march toward Moscow or somewhere near it and Putin remains the functional head of the Russian state?

SANGER: Well, you're right. Because until now, we have believed that what Prigozhin was trying to do was replace Defense -- the Defense Minister Shoigu and General Gerasimov, all of whom he's charged is incompetent. And he's made the case that they misled Putin, not that Putin had done anything wrong. But now he and Putin are in that struggle. And that was clear from Putin's speech. It was also clear in the fact that the government, the Russian government, referred to this as a coup attempt. Prigozhin did not say it was a coup attempt.

And so it's a little bit unclear what Prigozhin's ultimate objectives are here. And it's certainly unclear how we would get from where he is now into Moscow, even with a depleted Russian force around the Capitol.

BLITZER: Yeah. And it looks like they're in control of Rostov, not too far away, but a key military location for the Russian military. What does all this mean? For Putin standing on the global stage, David, right now?

SANGER: You know, Putin conducted this entire operation against Ukraine in part to go restore what he viewed as rightful Russian lands, that -- that Ukraine never should have been separated away from Russia. It's not that he wants to restore the old Soviet Union. He wants to restore sort of the czarist view of the sort of Peter the Great era when Ukraine was a piece of Russia and Russia a piece of Ukraine. And he said this much in a speech a few months before the invasion. Now, the war has first revealed his military to be relatively incompetent. That hurt his standing on the world stage.

Then the West rose up with sanctions that have hurt him economically although there are many countries that still have not joined on. And now it looks like he has cracks even within internally. And that's the biggest danger to him in many ways. You know, Ukraine never posed a threat to the Russian regime. And more importantly, to Putin's regime to Putin himself but Prigozhin may.

BLITZER: Among the most stunning statements that we've heard from Prigozhin is that the rationale for Russia's war in Ukraine was false. There was no NATO threat to Russia, from Ukraine. There was no attack on ethnic Russians, and it certainly contradicts the messages from Putin to the Russian public. That's what we've been hearing from Prigozhin. How much of a threat is that to Putin's credibility in the eyes right now of the Russian public?

SANGER: Yeah. It would be fascinating to know how broadly that message has spread. But, you know, it was one thing when there were Americans and NATO members and President Biden and the Chancellor of Germany making the case that NATO posed no threat to Russia. It's another thing when they hear it from Prigozhin himself, a Russian who commanded the troops that were the most successful for the Russians in the war and who have protected Putin by sending troops to Syria, by being his proxy army in Africa. So hearing it from him is a very different thing than hearing it from the United States or the European allies.

And even if Putin is successful in putting this down and I suspect that he probably would be. You can't take back the -- the fact that many Russian now know that at least one senior member once close to Putin has called the whole rationale for the war a sham.

[08:15:11]

BLITZER: Do you think, David it'll have an impact of what Prigozhin is doing and his Wagner troops are doing on the Russian public at large and their perceptions of this Russian war in Ukraine?

SANGER: You know, it's got to. It's really a question of who runs the better information campaign there. It was interesting that even in the cities that -- that right now Prigozhin, has managed to hold that there were many residents who were afraid to have the Wagner group there and we're saying please get out of here. They don't want their city destroyed because I think they are concerned that the battle between Russian regular military troops and the Wagner group will destroy much around them. And it may well it sort of depends on how this unfolds.

At the end of the day, Wagner has 25,000 Troops, we think. I'm not sure that big enough for him to do the job he has in mind. So he must be counting on ordinary Russian troops and units siding with him. And with some of the generals around Putin breaking with Putin, and you know, maybe he knows something we don't. But we haven't seen that yet. But it's certainly got to be making a lot of people nervous including the Chinese who, you know, really embrace Putin, were nervous about what he was doing, why he got bogged down, but, of course, have -- have thrown their lot in with him. And even before this happened, there were some signs that they were a little bit nervous about his hold on power. They must be much more nervous now.

BLITSZER: Good point. David Sanger, thanks very much for your analysis. We'll, of course, stay in very close touch with you. We're certainly following very closely and monitoring the situation in Ukraine at the same time and much more on that when we come back.

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[08:21:20]

BLITSZER: More now in our breaking news out of Russia this hour. President Vladimir Putin is facing a critical moment, a truly critical moment after the leader of the Wagner mercenary group, Yevgeny Prigozhin, a longtime ally of the Kremlin claimed his troops had taken control of military facilities in the Russian cities of Voronezh and Rostov-on-Don. Putin has accused him of treason and vowed to punish any armed rebellion that says any internal turmoil in Russia is a deadly threat to its statehood. Yevgeny Prigozhin rose to prominence as a close ally of Vladimir Putin. And now he's leading what Putin says is a rebellion against him.

I want to go to our Senior International Correspondent, Fred Pleitgen, Fred give us a better sense of who Prigozhin is.

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's a very important man or has been at least a very important man for Vladimir Putin. And certainly, someone who has risen among the ranks thanks to Vladimir Putin, who's been given a lot of power by Vladimir Putin. But who has also done a lot for Vladimir Putin along the way? And one of the things that we always have to mention, Wolf. is that Yevgeny Prigozhin came from very humble beginnings. He was in jail for a considerable period of time in the 80s and then started off in the 90s, selling hotdogs at a hotdog stand and then at some point became known as Putin's chef, Putin's cater. He was seen giving food to Vladimir Putin at various events. And then

managed to build an empire also, largely thanks to Vladimir Putin on top of that. And that's when, of course, he got involved in things like the Internet Research Agency with some of that propaganda work, he was doing. The U.S. saying that he played a big part meddling in the 2016 election, of course, was sanctioned, and indicted for that as well. And then you have the Wagner private military company, which is sort of one of the things that he also took on there. And this is something, Wolf that, you know, we in our work internationally have been confronted with over the past couple of years.

If you look at, for instance, Syria around 2014, 2015, where we would go around Syria and you would already see people from the Wagner private military company, at that point, still doing things like base protection for the Russians who are down on the ground in Syria. That then of course, evolved into more and more of a combat role. But then also doing shady economic dealings for Vladimir Putin as well, in Syria, for instance, with the oil wells that the Russians and the Syrian regime took there. But then also in Africa, dealing with gems, also training African military forces. But it really wasn't Wolf until the war in Ukraine or the full-on war in Ukraine, where Wagner went from essentially being a paramilitary company to being a full-on military, to being essentially a full-on army.

And Yevgeny Prigozhin himself says he believes that right now, this is the strongest army that Russia has and, you know, even sort of boasting that it's allegedly one of the strongest in the world. And -- and again, it was something that we've seen on the ground, all of us who for instance, were in the Battle of Bakhmut in Eastern Ukraine. You know, many people came under heavy shelling by those Wagner operatives who all of a sudden had tanks, who had large artillery stocks, were shooting a lot of artillery shells as well. And, of course, Wolf, also using prisoners who they recruited out of Russian jails to then essentially be used as cannon fodder on the front lines. So someone with a lot of brutal tactics. But also someone who now has a large army at his disposal, which apparently now has turned on Vladimir Putin. Wolf.

WOLF: Fred Pleitgen in Berlin for us. You've done a lot of reporting on the Wagner group. Fred, thank you very much.

Joining us now CNN military analyst, retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. General Hertling thanks very much for joining us. As you know, Ukraine, as far as Ukraine is concerned, one could imagine Ukrainians would be celebrating this chaos that's unfolding in what they regard as the enemy camp namely in Russia. Rostov, the city that the Wagner group apparently now controls. It's a military -- important major transportation hub for the Russian military. What does it mean for Russian forces in Ukraine if that city remains in the hands of the Wagner group and Prigozhin, forces? Could Ukraine use that situation to its advantage?

[08:25:32]

MARK HERTLING, FMR COMMANDING GENERAL, U.S. ARMY EUROPE AND SEVENTH ARMY: Well, certainly, Wolf They -- they would use that because Rostov-on-Don is the location of the headquarters of the Southern Military District in --in Russia. But it also is a huge pipeline as you just said for a lot of logistics. In fact, the Ukrainian forces have been trying to intersect the logistics line that go on the M4 and the M14 Highway that go into Zaporizhia and Kherson province.

So when you block those logistics, you certainly grind down the capability of Russia to conduct combat operations. But the other thing is, it's interesting is yes, Prigozhin and his Wagner group surrounded Rostov-on-Don last night. But now they're about halfway to Russia and they're in their fourth elements in a town called Brezhnev (ph). So that is going to cause Mr. Putin to say, I've got to continue to protect and bring my palace guards forward, surround the city of Russia, and make sure that this coup attempt, whatever you want to call it, if that's the proper term, doesn't take place. And that I protect the Kremlin, Red Square, and you've seen as early as last night, and I know, you know, this, there were many military vehicles in of -- in Red Square, security forces all around the City of Moscow. So they're very concerned about extensive operations by Wagner getting more toward the -- the capital city of Moscow and causing more disruption for Mr. Putin.

BLITZER: We know General that so many Russian troops have been deployed to Ukraine and they're -- they're obviously fighting there. They're fighting the Ukrainian forces, who are now launching a counter-offensive. Do the -- does the Russian military have enough troops remaining in Russia right now to fight the Wagner -- the Wagner forces?

HERTLING: They didn't have enough troops to fight the Ukrainian forces and that's part of the problem, Wolf. So no, as Wagner pulled away from the frontlines in Ukraine, they left massive holes. With now this new action of actually leaving completely the country and Wagner focusing their effort on the Russian government, there are huge holes in the frontline. But I'd put a caveat to that a little bit, Wolf, because the defensive positions that -- that Russia has been putting in place for the last six months are still there. So there are mines and trenches, and -- and wire and Russian forces who probably don't yet know exactly what's going on and they're confused, are still in their defensive positions.

So we're as there might be celebration by some Ukraine -- I'm sure that Ukrainian commanders are taking this very slowly trying to find where the new holes are in the frontlines that have been caused by Wagner's redeployment back to Russia, if you will. So the Ukrainian forces, if they're smart, are looking for new places to attack. But they've still got to deal with all of those mines that are in the ground and all the trenches that have been dug over the last six months with Russian forces behind them.

BLITZER: They were told that U.S. allies, NATO allies across Europe right now, they are monitoring this situation in Russia very, very closely. The stakes are significant. What is the top priority for the U.S. and its NATO allies right now, General?

HERTLING: Well, what I'd say you're right, General Chris Cavoli at UCOM headquarters, the four-star that's in charge of the U.S. forces and NATO forces is watching the intelligence very quickly. Where are the lines of Russian forces moving? What is happening in terms of their military capability? What logistics bases are now opening up? And how can they contribute to the information that that Ukraine probably already has to say what is truly happening and how can you use that in your favor?

But they are also looking for the potential for more, I'd say just more chaos from the Russian government. And -- and Wolf, what you're -- you know what I think someone or David Sanger sort of alluded to this during the last hour. The Russian government is not a true government right now. They are a criminal organization. So you're having a fight between mafia bosses, between Shoigu and -- and for Prigozhin and Gerasimov and some of the generals and, of course, Putin. And we can't think of this as really good decision-making inside of a government that's trying to do the best they can to -- to win a war. What we see instead is a bunch of capos attacking each other in a mafia trying to gain power and more money.

[08:30:00]

It's been corrupt like this in Russia for at least the last two decades and an extreme scale and it's going to continue and now it's coming home to roost.

BLITZER: The Kremlin, as you know, has spoken with the leaders in some, some neighboring countries were including Belarus, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, is there a concern general that the unrested Russia might spill over into other Putin aligned countries?

HERTLING: You know, Wolf, I'm going to predict that that exactly will happen. And when I was commander in Europe, we watch that very closely. The actions inside of Moscow would certainly affect them the actions in places like Tbilisi, Georgia, or some of the other stands.

You know, they have been under Russia's thumb. They have been under Mr. Putin's thumb and in fact, many of the soldiers that Russia has deployed and mobilized have come from those outlying areas, and places like Belarus, which is tenuous at best with Mr. Lukashenko are now feeling like they don't have the support of a government that looks a little bit like it's starting to crumble and be disturbed -- and be more dysfunctional than it already has.

So yes, I would suggest having been a reader of the other countries associated with Russia that this is probably call it causing a whole lot of problems in a lot of foreign capitals right now.

BLITZER: Yes, I think you're totally right. Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, as usual, thank you very, very much for your analysis.

We're closely monitoring this unprecedented, dramatic historic situation unfolding in Russia right now. We'll explain the situation and how it impacts the overall war in Ukraine. We're getting more information that's coming up.

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[08:35:47]

BLITZER: We're continuing to follow the developing situation out of Russia right now as President Vladimir Putin faces a very serious threat to his hold on power. The Wagner chief, Yevgeny Prigozhin is saying that his group actually took control of the military headquarters in Rostov. He says he they did that. And I'm quoting him now without firing a shot

CNN's chief international security correspondent Nick Paton Walsh is tracking these historic, very powerful developments for all of us. So where do things stand, Nick right now?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT^ Yes, I mean, still, as you mentioned, that utterly extraordinary. The atmosphere in Rostov-on-Don, a key Russian military town probably the most important one nationwide, you might argue, captured according to the Wagner chief without firing a shot and some of the video we've seen from there does show a very relaxed situation, him in fact talking to two military commanders based there.

One of whom, in fact, have been seen on the internet, on television the day before urging people not to go along with this insurrection, but he was later pictured with Prigozhin, the Wagner chief and another commander talking Prigozhin at one point and monitoring one of the commanders for using the informal YouVersion. You singular when talking to him about lack of respect Prigozhin said there.

Extraordinary scenes in Rostov that continues though, on the highway up towards Moscow. The town of Voronezh, well, the governor there of that region has said that there's been combat measures by the Russian military. There's been a report in state media of an MI-8 attack helicopter taken down in that particular area and further up the road towards Moscow.

Indeed, the Lipetsk region governor has told people to stay at home for now sort of essentially stay off the streets. So that a key highway south to the capitol, certainly bracing. It is unclear at this point, the volume of Wagner traffic moving up there and quite where it has gone.

But pictures indeed have emerged on the outskirts of Moscow, of troops setting up positions on the sandbags, so startling scenes. You couldn't even possibly begin to imagine were imaginable last year before the war indeed began.

And in fact a key advisor, a key part of the Putin cabinet, Sergey Naryshkin, the head of the Foreign Intelligence Service has just put out a statement condemning what he refers to as the armed attempted rebellion, there that cannot be justified by any prior achievements. Essentially pointing towards how the Wagner group has been behind a lot of the most intense fighting particularly around the symbolic but strategically not that helpful city of Bakhmut.

And I think part of the coterie around Putin putting out a message saying Russia needs to unify. The ultimate question here, Wolf, is exactly what the military are going to do whether they really want to take on the Wagner group, often ex-soldiers themselves and quite whether or not this convoy however big it is, will be stopped for the outskirts of Moscow. Extraordinary scenes here.

BLITZER: Truly extraordinary, very -- very historic, I must say because we don't know what the end result of this is going to be. It's a huge, huge question right now. Nick Paton Walsh, stand by we'll get back to you.

Everything is just the beginning in Russia. That's the message from an advisor to the Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Coming up, we'll discuss how this power struggle. This historic dramatic power struggle in Russia right now could affect the country's war efforts. Stay with us.

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[08:43:39]

BLITZER: The Russian President Vladimir Putin is taking -- is vowing I should say to take action after you Yevgeny Prigozhin, the leader of the Russian mercenary group, the Wagner Group claims to have seized two key Russian military facilities in southern Russia not far from Ukraine.

Prigozhin denies his acts are a coup, saying instead of takeovers are what he calls a march of justice that will not interfere with Russia's armed forces in any way. That's what he says. Here with us right now CNN's international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson, and CNN national security reporter Natasha Bertrand.

Nic, first to you. How does this impact the way Russians actually view this war in Ukraine?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EIDTOR: It can have a negative impact because Putin has not answered Prigozhin's principal challenge here, which is that the war was unnecessary. It was been fought because of his defense chiefs wanting to go to war not -- he didn't blame Putin per se for it.

But it's been come at the expense of Russian soldiers potentially more than 100,000, potentially 200,000 that there have been shortages of ammunition, shortages of training, that everything about this war has been wrong. In essence, this is the thrust of what Prigozhin was saying.

Putin has treated Prigozhin as a security threat that he is going to shut down treasonous is the language that he used.

[08:45:05]

But that doesn't answer Prigozhin's point. And there are Russian citizens, particularly those who have lost loved ones, brothers, families, fathers, sons who want answers. Is this war worthwhile? And that's a question that I know from having conversations with people in Moscow today, that is still out there waiting to be answered. So I think that is an issue for him. But the question for Prigozhin clearly is how much support can he actually muster from the military? Because Putin has called around all his loyalists looking for support. Here's called Kadyrov, Ramzan Kadyrov, the Chechen leader, one of his most important allies outside of his military chiefs, is called his appointees, government that has appointed in Ukraine, is called even neighboring countries. It's even called President Erdogan in Turkey.

So the core question hasn't been answered. But Putin is circling his wagons making sure his security approach is going to work. And the question is now, can we -- can Prigozhin break out of Rostov? Or will this actually become his Alamo?

BLITZER: And Natasha, as Nic just reported, the Kremlin says Erdogan of Turkey expressed full support in that phone conversation with Putin. How do you expect Ukraine's Western allies to approach all of this, the NATO allies specifically?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, well, so the NATO allies in the West, they have been watching this deteriorating relationship between Prigozhin and the Russian Ministry of Defense very, very closely over the last several months, because it has the potential and as we've seen, the reality has -- it has occurred to create a lot of instability inside Russia. And that is problematic for a number of reasons, not least, because obviously, Russia is a nuclear state.

And so they have been watching this closely to see whether Prigozhin was actually going to do anything about all of his threats and all of his complaints about the Russian military not providing his men with enough ammunition, with enough equipment, a complaint that he has had for several months, saying that essentially, the Russian Ministry of Defense had left the Russian troops and Wagner troops to die in Ukraine without actually providing them with the equipment and the support that they actually needed.

And so the question now is, did the West and did the U.S. and did NATO kind of underestimate Prigozhin's capabilities here. I don't think anyone could have predicted that he would do something like this. And they are watching now to see whether this becomes a further destabilizing situation, because obviously, that could have major ramifications across not just Russia, but across the entire region.

On the other hand, you know, they're watching very closely to see how this impacts the war in Ukraine because Wagner played such an important role there. The Wagner troops were really instrumental in the wall -- in the Battle of Bakhmut, of course, that really symbolically important city in Ukraine.

And without the full force of Wagner operating in Ukraine, with them distracted now in Russia, how is that actually going to impact Ukraine? Is it going to allow them to make some kind of breakthrough, while Russia and while Wagner are so distracted by all of this?

So this is something that U.S. officials have been watching with a lot of fascination over the last several months. It remains unclear at this point. However, what happens next, and that is, of course, what they're calling around to allies and partners to try to figure out here, Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, clearly, the stakes for the NATO allies and the U.S., of course, are enormous right now what's happening in Russia. Natasha Bertrand, thank you very much, Nic Robertson, thanks to you as well. Don't go too far away either one of you. We're going to have much more on all this breaking news in just a minute. We're live in eastern Ukraine after a short break.

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[08:53:06]

BLITZER: The Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy now says and I'm quoting now, Russia's actions in Ukraine have led it to the chaos, it's now engulfed in. Our senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman is joining us live from Zaporizhzhia in Ukraine right now. So how is this likely to affect the war in Ukraine? What are you hearing Ben?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well certainly what we're hearing is that the Ukrainians are very optimistic that this will probably make their job during this current counteroffensive, much easier given the fact that the Russian military seems to be turning upon itself.

In particular, the fact that Prigozhin and his mercenaries now seem to be in control of the Southern military district headquarters in Rostov-on-Don. And that is the basically the Strategic Command Center for all Russian forces in southern Ukraine. It's hard to imagine that they'll be able to function in this atmosphere of utter chaos on the Russian side.

Now they're -- the counteroffensive began about two weeks ago. And what we've seen is so far, the Ukrainians have only made modest gains, but they have yet to commit the bulk of their forces to the fight and therefore, and for instance, Wolf, we were very near the frontlines yesterday, what we saw is there are a lot of troops and a lot of Western supplied equipment in reserve basically primed to move forward.

So the assumption among most Ukrainians is that given the circumstances, this now is the golden opportunity at the right moment for them to push ahead and try to take advantage of disorder in the Russian ranks to bring this counter offensive forward in in a dramatic way, Wolf.

[08:55:02]

BLITZER: And in the meantime, this Ukrainian counteroffensive, it has started, is that right? But it's not making all that much progress, at least not yet.

WEDEMAN: Yes. So far they've only taken about 44 square miles or eight very small villages. The Ukrainians are suggesting that that was just sort of preparatory moves, shaping operations, as they're called for the big offensive. They haven't really committed most of their forces yet. What we've seen is relatively small engagement. So the big one is yet to come, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Bed Wedeman in Zaporizhzhia. Stay safe over there, as I always tell you. Appreciate it very much. We of course will continue to follow all of these historic, very dramatic developments unfolding out of Russia throughout the morning. I'll be back here in one hour with one of our special coverage. In the meantime, Smerconish is up next right after a short break.

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