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CNN This Morning

Wagner Group Leader Yevgeny Prigozhin Turns Forces Back from Marching on Moscow; Putin's Power in Question after Armed Revolt, Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired June 26, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: CNN THIS MORNING starts now.

But this is where we begin. The Kremlin just put out moments ago new video of Vladimir Putin following that mercenary rebellion inside of Russia that threatened to topple his regime. It's not clear, we should note, when this video was actually recorded. And it doesn't mention anything that happened over the weekend. No mention of the mutiny. We haven't heard much from Putin after the most dramatic challenge ever to his 23-year rule.

The mercenaries ended their march on Moscow when they were just about 120 miles away from the city. The revolt appears to be over for now. The fallout, though, likely just beginning. We don't know where the Wagner mercenary group's leader is this morning after he supposedly struck a deal with the Kremlin to stand down and go into exile in Belarus. Take a look, these are the last images we have seen of Yevgeny Prigozhin leaving a military headquarters that his troops had seized in southern Russia. Putin had vowed to punish him for treason.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: This right now is a look at Moscow, the city that was preparing for a siege, had security measures up. No longer. The mayor says the security restrictions imposed over the weekend are now lifted. Meanwhile, Ukrainian forces say they're making gains on the battlefield in their counteroffensive as President Putin grapples with the fallout from the rebellion at home.

Matthew Chance is live for us in Moscow, tracking the latest developments. And Matthew, what are we hearing from the Kremlin at this point?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, I mean, well, everybody seems to have disappeared at this point. We don't know where Yevgeny Prigozhin is. He's meant to be in Belarus, but the Belarusian officials I've spoken to again this morning have not confirmed to me whether or not he's turned up. And of course, Vladimir Putin, who has obviously been at the center of this astonishing few days, this incredible weekend, he hasn't appeared, either. But there has been a prerecorded message that's been put out, a speech by Vladimir Putin, addressing the International Youth Industrial Forum, which is taking place in the Russian region of Tula. And president Putin is giving his remarks to that forum in prerecorded -- in a prerecorded speech. But nothing from him in terms of where he actually is now. There were

concerns he may have -- or suspicions that he may have fled from Moscow during the height of this crisis, but the Kremlin says he's been working here in his office, in the Kremlin itself, in the Kremlin compound itself. But so many questions still about what will come next, what has been unleashed as a result of this incredible weekend, and what Vladimir Putin will do, of course, in the immediate aftermath.

HARLOW: -- been speaking to people in Russia, and I just wonder what they're saying, because that's a big question this morning. Has Putin's power over them waned at all?

CHANCE: I think it's almost deniable that it has. It was shocking for me and for all of us, and of course, many people in Russia to see an armed rebellion taking to the streets of the country, rebels essentially intention over an entire city, Rostov-on-Don, in the south of the city. And that couldn't but chip away at the veneer of authority that Vladimir Putin has. And so as I say, there's relief that more bloodshed was avoided, but also anxiety about what comes next after this incredible few days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Wagner! Wagner! Wagner!

CHANCE: For the Kremlin, these are some of the most disturbing scenes from a weekend of shocking images.

(GUNFIRE)

CHANCE: On the streets of a major Russian city, Rostov-on-Don in the south, residents cheered Wagner fighters as they withdrew. Many Russians see them as heroes, not as the traitors the Kremlin paints them. And Wagner's leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin, has become a celebrity, too. Watch as supporters hail down his car just to shake hands. The Kremlin says he's now moving to Belarus next door, but it's unclear if this is the last we'll see of him.

What is definite, though, is a sense of relief, at least here in the Russian capital.

It's calm now, but in the mayhem of the weekend, Moscow was on high alert. Military checkpoints on the outskirts of the city, residents bracing for Wagner fighters to enter and for the confrontation that never came.

"It was really uneasy yesterday," says Andre (ph). "But look now. People are walking in the streets and it's all good. Let's hope it will stay peaceful," he adds. But even here, there's sympathy for Prigozhin's unprecedented challenge.

[08:05:01]

His tirades against the conduct of the war in Ukraine appears to have struck a popular chord. "I think it was an expression of an opinion," says Oleg (ph), another resident of Moscow, "an opinion of a powerful person who wants some justice and clarity." The belief Prigozhin should be listened to is widely shared here.

But that's not what the Kremlin wants to hear. Vladimir Putin hasn't appeared in public since making his angry pledge on Saturday, filmed behind the scenes by state television, to punish those responsible for what he called an armed mutiny, the biggest challenge to his authority in 23 years of power.

But now that challenge has been made. There are growing concerns about what a defensive President Putin, stung by the events of this weekend, will do next to stay in power.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

CHANCE (on camera): Just to give you an indication of the mood in the country, I've got one of the local newspapers here, Moskovskij Komsomolets. Here it is. There's a little picture of Yevgeny Prigozhin up in the corner there, "The man behind the armed rebellion," it says. The headline here says "Prigozhin will go, but the problem remains." It says next to it, "Russia displays its vulnerability to the world and to itself." And so, you get a good sense there that, although there's relief that more bloodshed was avoided, there is a lot of anxiety about what comes next here in Russia.

HARLOW: Indeed, the key question. Matthew Chance, great reporting. Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Joining us now at the table, CNN global affairs analyst Kim Dozier, CNN senior political commentator, former congressman, Adam Kinzinger, and former CIA chief of Russia operations, Steve Hall. Steve, I want to start with you, because while it was clearly a savvy P.R. move to elevate the International Youth Industrial Forum, in terms of the photos -- the pictures, the video that was released by the Kremlin today, you were shaking your head and kind of chuckling when that was played, when Matthew laid that out. I think the big question is what Matthew was detailing at the end of his piece. What does Putin do now? We've never seen a threat like this or a fracture like this in his 20-plus years of leadership. How does he respond to this?

STEVE HALL, FORMER CIA CHIEF OF RUSSIA OPERATIONS: Well, first, I think what you're seeing, what we saw Matthew bring up in terms of the state of people in Moscow, what they're saying on the streets, some of the stuff in the newspapers. This is the initial cleanup mode that Putin is going to get into. So he's basically going to try to tell everybody, look, it's all OK, this is all behind us, nobody is going to fall from power.

But I really think that the key thing that Putin has to be most concerned about right now is not whether people are going to rise up in the streets. Yes, there was some populist sentiment that was thrown in Prigozhin's way over the weekend, but what he's really got to be concerned about are these people that I refer to as the Siloviki. These are the close advisers to Putin who are also watching him for cracks. And if there is much more weakness, if things get much worse, I've got to think that people in the Siloviki, guys Patrushev, for example, are going to say, do we need to continue with this guy? Are we going to get another coup next month? At some point, that worm might turn.

HARLOW: You were chief of CIA Russia operations, so you have a unique perspective and vantage point to all of this. Why do you think Prigozhin turned around so quickly, so close to Moscow?

HALL: There are so many questions. And hopefully, this will come out as the weeks go by, but that's a key one, because look how close he was. Does he all of a sudden wake up and say, what am I doing? It's almost like he sobered up or something. I think what happened was he must have been confronted with some stuff from Putin, from Moscow where he basically said, I can no longer do this. It might have been the idea of having to fight his way to Moscow through guys like Ramzan Kadyrov and the Chechens, who are absolutely crazy, and who would been the first guys I think Putin would have said, get in the way of these people as opposed to --

HARLOW: And they were offering support.

HALL: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Kim, actually to that point, I think there was an assumption at various points in the week, and we talked about this during one of the breaks, where he was operating, Prigozhin was operating from power. He was operating through -- with perhaps a level of substantive power that wasn't necessarily understood beforehand. As the week went on, it seemed like that probably wasn't the case. If you looked at the dynamics of what led to this moment, what was happening to Wagner Group in terms of their contract status, what was happening with other private military groups that had been moving into places where they were, do you feel like this was an emotional response rather than a power play?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Part of it was a power play, because Prigozhin was about to have to sign a contract that put his forces underneath the control of the Russian military. But part of it seemed to be this drunk with emotion or drunk response, where he just said, you hit my guys, I'm charging for Moscow.

[08:10:00]

And the world got to see that the Russian military didn't stand in his way, at least initially.

MATTINGLY: Why?

DOZIER: He was seen as having coffee with the commanders in southern command in Rostov-on-Don.

HARLOW: Almost welcomed.

DOZIER: Yes. He is a folk hero. And he's a folk hero that Moscow allowed, that Putin allowed to be constructed that way. The Russian everyman that every man wants to be. The guy that you want to go drinking with. The guy that goes and hangs out with the crack forces at the front lines and handles some of Russia's toughest fights.

So to take on that guy, that makes Putin seem like he's one of the dark-suited people who, you know, the bribe takers, the people that everyone in Russia is jealous of, that send their kids outside the country so they don't get drafted, that get the expensive holidays. In that equation, if you're Putin, you don't want to be seen as with the rich guys, as opposed to with this populist hero.

HARLOW: So we've just got new sound in from NATO secretary general Jens Stoltenberg speaking from Lithuania. Let's play that and get your reaction on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: This is the weakness of the Russian regime, and it also demonstrates how difficult and dangerous it is for President Putin to be reliant on mercenaries. That has actually turned against him. And it also demonstrates that it is hard to predict exactly what will now happen in the next days and weeks. But we should not make the mistakes that we are underestimating the Russians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Let me first off say, he's been a great NATO leader. He's been out there, probably one of the more hawkish, or I guess kind of clear-spoken NATO leaders. He has a very important job bringing the coalition together, and he's correct.

Look, the interesting thing from this weekend, as we had talked about where was the Russian army, I think this exposed what we've basically already known and we've seen in this war is, the Russian army is really not that good. The Russian army may not have quite the forces to muster that we thought they did. Keep in mind, very terrible infrastructure across Russia. Russia's very big, so you want to move forces anywhere, it takes forever. Kadyrov, they can be out of tough, but they're also called the TikTok brigade for a reason, because they always stay out of the fight and take pictures of themselves pretending to be in it. They were taking pictures of themselves at some bridge in the middle of nowhere this time.

And so I think the thing that came out of this is that if we continue to support the Ukrainian military and we get out of this idea that we have to give Vladimir Putin an offramp, we have to give him honor, and we just say, look, we have to have a victory for Ukraine. We don't need Ukraine invading Russia, of course. Nobody is even talking about that. Ukraine isn't even talking about that. But we need Ukraine to win this war. It may be much easier to win than we think. Certainly, it is winnable. And frankly, that's how we stop this continued Vladimir Putin fear and this continued fear of Russia, is to have them actually lose in Ukraine.

DOZIER: Just from a tactical standpoint, also, they were 120 miles away, Prigozhin's forces were 120 miles away from Moscow. Could they have gotten the Chechens, hopscotched ahead of them in time to keep fighting from breaking out on Moscow's outskirts, audible to those inside? One of the things that, of course, as Steve can explain to us in detail, the centers of Russian political power are the populated areas, the big cities. If this happens in the hinterland, Rostov-on- Don, well, you can keep that off of the front pages for the most part. But if there was fighting on the outskirts of Moscow, that would damage Putin irrevocably in the eyes of all of his people.

MATTINGLY: We have to go, but one quick thing before we let you go because of your expertise. Is Yevgeny Prigozhin still around in three or four weeks?

HALL: That's a great question. Obviously, he's got to be handled very delicately. And we don't even know where he is today as far as we can tell. I think, eventually, though, certainly, I think he has, at least for the time being, left the political season. Will he actually leave the physical realm, will he slip on ice or something like that? I think there's a good chance.

MATTINGLY: It's fascinating developments across the board geopolitically and domestically, and Yevgeny Prigozhin. Guys, thanks so much.

Obviously, one of the questions, what will Putin do next after the revolt in Russia? We're joined by the Russian foreign minister, coming up next.

HARLOW: Also a tornado ripping through a town outside of Indianapolis, damaging at least 75 homes. Look at that. More on that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:18:17]

MATTINGLY: As the world continues to analyze what happened in Russia over the weekend, it's worth taking a step back to 1991 leading up to former Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev's final days in office.

This was Larry King on CNN. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, CNN, "LARRY KING LIVE": The incredible sudden turn of events, a struggle for the very soul of the Soviet Union unfolding in Moscow right now.

Gorbachev and Glasnost are out, a new wave of civil warring is in in a coup engineered by communist hardliners, Mikhail Gorbachev has been deposed to power and his one-time rival, Boris Yeltsin may be the only hope for a democratic future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Soviet hardliners had Gorbachev captive for two days, but the coup attempt backfired and people took to the streets of Moscow. This iconic image of soon to be President Boris Yeltsin was taken of

him speaking to crowds in Moscow atop a tank. This failed coup signaled the end of the Soviet Union, which dissolved later that year.

Our next guest was the Russian Foreign minister at the time and continued on in this role under former Russian President Boris Yeltsin. He was forced out in 1996.

Joining me now is Andrei Kozyrev.

Sir, thanks so much for joining me.

I want to start with the idea of what your read is right now on why this fight spilled into the public and took such a dramatic turn over the weekend?

ANDREI KOZYREV, FORMER RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, there is very little comparison actually with 1991 because that was about political future, political choice of Russia and the people went out.

[08:20:03]

We were in the so-called White House. We were surrounded by tanks, but we were also surrounded by crowds of people who wanted political choice and the political change for democracy, for future, for better relationship with the West and so on.

This time, it is totally devoid of any political agenda. It's a wolf's pack for prey, you know, for easy prey. That is one thing we learned. And there is an alpha kind of male there in this pack, but there are others who want and will want. If it is not Prigozhin, then there will be other who want to have better piece of pie and be the alpha one. So that's lesson number one.

They are all on the same agenda, the agenda of the war, the agenda of money and power. No political ideological differences between them. And they will continue the war, as long as the West tolerates actually that and does not give Ukraine the most powerful weapons to shorten the war.

MATTINGLY: Can I ask you, though? You know, you made a point to my colleague, Christiane Amanpour over the weekend, that this is actually no different than what we've seen throughout the course, to some degree of Putin's time in power, of the infighting, the battles that go on underneath. What's different now is the information time we're in.

The fact people are seeing it spill into public view. Do you think that changes how this particular fight ends, as opposed to the others that just seem to be underneath everything?

KOZYREV: Not much.

Putin has and Kremlin, the Kremlin has full control of the propaganda and our narrative on every actual available, except internet. Media and internet is only for mostly for young people and it is difficult also to penetrate and to get some news from abroad or opposing news, because they have trolls and other ways to control the internet information, too.

So Russian people have very simple and very little idea of what is happening. And this is police state, it does not mean that they are mighty state, but they are police state which is able to control the public.

So public politics are not so important there and that is the mistake the West makes mostly when they think that Putin has deadlines, that Putin has to count with some kind of -- he only threatened by his wolf pack, the contenders, but that would not change much, even if he is overturned.

And also what we saw these days in Moscow is that the only red line for either of them, for Putin is his personal survival. Nothing matters for him.

He was prepared to cede the military in Moscow, and he probably went someplace else. So for him, the red line is not a defeat in Ukraine. For him, the red line is his personal power and personal survival.

MATTINGLY: Last one, we only have a few seconds left. What do you think happens to Yevgeny Prigozhin?

KOZYREV: I don't know. And to tell you frankly, I don't care. I understand that it's a show and people are fascinated with that, but it doesn't matter actually. Who is Prigozhin? Prigozhin is a clown --a political clown and a servant of Putin, so...

MATTINGLY: Well, is Putin weaker now because of what we saw though?

KOZYREV: Yes, I mean, he just wanted to survive. The Ministry of Defense probably took an upper hand inside the Kremlin fight -- infight -- and they demanded that he kind of surrender. He did not and he tried his best to use his military force, but again like anyone else there, he is very opportunistic.

[08:25:10]

And he does not want to risk his life. That's important. That's also his red line. Nothing like, you know, loyalty to his troops or loyalty to Russia or to whatever. His only loyalty is his personal survival.

MATTINGLY: Yes, Andrei Kozyrev, we really appreciate the perspective and the experience.

Sir, thanks so much.

KOZYREV: Thank you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Fascinating to hear from him given his history there.

We'll continue to follow the latest developments in Russia, of course. Also news here in the United States, nearly 40 million people are

under heat alerts across the south this morning. We will take you live to Texas.

MATTINGLY: And more than half of New York City's third through eighth graders are not reading proficiently. Now, school officials are about to undergo the most significant curriculum overhaul in decades.

We spoke to teachers and students about what that could look like.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED BOY: Probably when I am 13, I can read those big books.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:00]