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NYT: Russian General Knew About Mercenary Chief's Rebellion Plans, U.S. Officials Say; High Court Rejects Controversial "Independent State Legislature" Theory; Jason Derulo Talks New Book "Sing Your Name Out Loud." Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired June 28, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BOARD MEMBER, EPIRUS: But by the time Saturday plays itself out he realizes that support does not materialize and, thus, he has to cut that deal where he leaves for Belarus.

Now, the important thing to understand is all these men have known each other for many years. In fact, Prigozhin and Surovikin go back to the Syrian civil war where Surovikin is credited with turning the tide in the Assad regime's favor.

Surovikin is considered a brutal but competent commander. He is the one that is thrown into the fray last fall in Ukraine and put in charge of all Russian forces to stop the Ukrainian counteroffensive. He is successful -- he is successful in doing so but then is relieved about two or three months later by Gerasimov.

And, of course, it's Gerasimov and -- who is the chief of the general staff and Sergei Shoigu, the defense minister, who both Prigozhin, Surovikin, and many on the far-right in Russia believe have completely mishandled the conduct of this war and response -- and are responsible for its failure.

So you can see the lives of these men, their careers, and their gripes against the Defense Ministry all kind of aligned here. And I think we'll learn about more people who were kind of in this circle of hardliners on the right within the Russian military.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: We also, by the way, have not seen Prigozhin, though two planes linked to him were seen at a Belarusian airbase outside of Minsk yesterday.

How does this play into whatever his fate may be?

ESPER: Well, I don't know. If I -- if I were Prigozhin, I'd stay away from dark alleys and high-rise buildings, and maybe escape to Africa where his -- where he still has support among Wagner forces located there. But I think that will play out over time.

I think what Putin has to do is he has to be careful not to make any major moves because if he starts -- if he starts going after Prigozhin now or starts some type of purge in the Russian military -- and that is the inclination, all right, is to find a head if you will -- it would undermine his narrative that this was all about the West and not about --

HARLOW: Right.

ESPER: -- an internal --

HARLOW: Right.

ESPER: -- revolt or rebellion.

HARLOW: Yes.

ESPER: So he has to be careful about that external narrative and how that plays to the Russian people. Because keep in mind, when this whole thing kicked off nobody came to stand for Putin. Nobody -- Prigozhin was welcomed in Rostov, right, but nobody in the military stood and stopped Prigozhin. No Russian citizens came out in the streets to support Putin and that says a lot, and I'm sure that's on Putin's mind as well.

HARLOW: The former editor of a Russian newspaper wrote this in The New York Times this morning. It was fascinating.

Quote, "It took the ultimate insider to show the cracks in the system. Those fissures aren't going to shake Mr. Putin out of power now and maybe they never will, but he understands that they and he have been exposed. Not once has he mentioned Mr. Prigozhin's name in his speeches since the threat of the coup." He goes on to say, "The other name Putin never mentions, the opposition leader who posed such a threat he put him in jail -- Alexey Navalny."

What do you make of Putin's response -- what he has said? And maybe more importantly, Secretary, what he has not said?

ESPER: He's trying very hard to steady the country right now. You see in his remarks there's a degree of anger but at the same time, trying to walk this fine line. He knows that there are various factions within the country that are questioning his leadership, particularly since Prigozhin came out publicly and said that this war is all a lie. That was never about a Ukrainian threat. That it was all about Russian generals wanting to plunder Ukraine.

So, at the same time, yesterday, he comes out with this ceremony -- the pageantry of his office -- and he compliments and awards the security services -- the people he needs to rely on to stay in power. To make sure he has them locked down as well.

So I think he's in -- he's in a very tight spot right now. And at the same time, he's fighting the war in Ukraine. He has to be worried about the -- this counteroffensive really kicking off hot and heavy pretty soon.

HARLOW: There has been a development, turning the page here, to how former President Trump -- your former boss -- is defending having what is alleged to be those secret classified documents on his desk in Bedminster and showing them to people who don't have any qualification to see them, and him having them, by the way, out of the White House after his presidency.

Here is how he's defending it now -- listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And the voice was fine. What did I say wrong on those recordings? I didn't even see the recording. All I know is I did nothing wrong. We had a lot of papers -- a lot of papers stacked up. In fact, you could hear the rustle of the paper. And nobody said I did anything wrong other than the fake news which, of course, is Fox, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: He also talked about them, in another interview, being building plans and golf course plans. Do you believe him?

ESPER: Look, I think the context of everything we've heard on the tapes suggests that the documents are real -- that he knew what he was doing. If the allegations by the special counsel are true it would be clearly unauthorized, illegal, irresponsible -- dangerous if you will.

And I go back to the standard we hold of all of our service members. If an airman or marine or young soldier or sailor --

HARLOW: Yes.

ESPER: -- were caught retaining or took classified documents and were unauthorized using them and handling them, then they would be court- martialed. And we -- this case is playing out right now in Massachusetts where that young airman would --

[07:35:02]

HARLOW: That's right.

ESPER: -- took documents from the Massachusetts National Guard and retained them, and then shared information.

So that's the standard we hold our service members to.

And there is that basic principle in our judicial system that nobody is above the law. By the same token, you're innocent until proven guilty, so all this needs to play out. Clearly, the document or whatever the witnesses say about that document will be pivotal I think in how this plays out.

HARLOW: You know, you mentioned service members. There have been service members, multiple, who have gone to jail, right, for actions akin to what is alleged here.

I thought it was interesting that your former colleague John Bolton said it's unlikely that the former president, if convicted, will actually end up in jail.

What do you think?

ESPER: Well, who knows? You know, they -- I think the legal process has to play itself out. That's always been my views. Let the legal process play itself out and see where that culminates at what the state of affairs is at that time. I think it's too hard to look -- too hard to see that far into the future right now.

HARLOW: Secretary Esper, thanks for your time this morning.

ESPER: Thank you.

HARLOW: Appreciate it -- Phil.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: All right. The Supreme Court rejecting a push to give state lawmakers nearly unchecked power on deciding elections. Why this is a loss for those 2020 election deniers coming up next.

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[07:40:13]

HARLOW: Welcome back. A live look at our nation's capital.

This morning, voting rights advocates are celebrating the Supreme Court's 6-3 decision in a case that could have completely changed the way U.S. elections are decided.

Here is renowned retired federal judge, Michael Luttig.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL LUTTIG, RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE: Moore versus Harper is the most significant case for America's democracy since our founding almost 250 years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And that case was just decided by the high court. On its face, it was about a legislative map drawn by North Carolina Republicans, but it also had the potential to change who runs elections, who sets election laws, and even upset fundamental checks and balances in the U.S. government.

How did it have so much power? Some in former President Donald Trump's orbit, like John Eastman -- you'll remember him from our January 6 coverage -- were pushing something called the Independent State Legislature doctrine, and it goes like this. Under the elections clause of the U.S. Constitution, quote, "The times, places, and manner of holding elections for senators and representatives shall be prescribed in each state by the legislature thereof."

Now, proponents of this theory say statehouses should be able to then set the rules in federal elections with no check, no balance, no check from state constitutions, no check from state courts, no check from state commissions -- nothing. No balances. And it wasn't just the maps at stake. This had the potential to stretch all rules in federal elections.

Let's talk about the consequences here. Alyssa Farah Griffin, Astead Herndon, and Elie Honig are with us. Good morning.

Six-three -- Roberts writes the opinion. There's a -- there's an important part of the opinion here as it pertains to federal courts that gives people some pause, but overall, is this a win for democracy?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK, FORMER FEDERAL AND NEW JERSEY PROSECUTOR: Oh, without question. I mean, had this gone the other way it would have changed everything. I mean, I think Judge Luttig is correct. It would have changed the way we vote. It would have changed everything about checks and balances.

What it would have meant had it gone the other way is that state legislatures can decide to hold elections however they want and there's nothing that state courts, including state Supreme Courts, can do about this. And to think about what the consequences of that could be just think back to 2020 and what Donald Trump, and Rudy Giuliani, and John Eastman were pressuring state legislatures to do.

So this was a big win for democracy, no question.

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I mean, I don't think that can be overstated.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

HERNDON: I mean, I think that this was the kind of fear for folks who are really looking at this case as kind of the thing that could shift all of 2024.

And the question is why were folks like John Eastman so invested in this independent state legislature theory. It's because that politically, there is a Republican Party that has been kind of forced into viewing itself as a minority party. And so, you have people who are looking at state legislatures because that allows them to circumvent kind of popular opinion. That allows them to be more reliant on things that happened back -- more powers locked in from gerrymandering.

We think about Wisconsin, right, a state where Democrats have been able to win back power through winning that state Supreme Court race after 10-15 years of basically being shut out. That's a 50-50 state where the political voice has almost immediately changed because those maps are going to change.

That's the power that really lies in those state legislatures and in this question here, and that's what Moore versus Harper really returns back to kind of our foundational principle of democracy rather than allow state legislatures to act fully unchecked. ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER TRUMP WHITE

HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, and a win for democracy, all agreeing here, that would it have effectively done is eliminated any neutral arbiters from the electoral process -- so whether it's a state Supreme Court. But in having it in the hands of political -- you know, political appointees within the statehouses.

But I would caution -- this is a good ruling and good precedent -- there are still efforts underway, whether it's partisan secretaries of states trying to be elected in swing states. The Trump team has been very -- has quietly been trying to push some of these officials -- because there are still going to be efforts in the future to undermine the integrity of elections.

HONIG: Interesting. And by the way, important to note the coalition here. You had Chief Justice Roberts --

GRIFFIN: Yes.

HONIG: -- Justice Kavanaugh, Justice Amy Coney Barrett joining with the three liberal justices.

HARLOW: And the dissents were largely about thinking that this just have been dismissed --

HONIG: Right.

HARLOW: -- because of the makeup of the North Carolina --

GRIFFIN: RIGHT.

HONIG: Procedural.

HARLOW: I will just -- I know we've got to go but I'll just say Judge Luttig, who we heard from at the top, also told Anderson last night that this decision was needed by SCOTUS for Jack Smith to be potentially successful in bringing charges in the election interference case. So it all ties into what's going on right now.

Thank you, guys.

MATTINGLY: Thanks, guys -- Alyssa Farah Griffin, Astead Herndon, Elie Honig. Astead, thanks for joining us. I appreciate that.

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: There's a lot there.

After more than a decade of hit after hit, Jason Derulo is sharing his story and his rules for success. He's live here in the studio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON DERULO, MULTI-PLATINUM SELLING ARTIST, SINGER-SONGWRITER, ENTREPRENEU, AUTHOR, "SING YOUR NAME OUT LOUD: 15 RULES FOR LIVING YOUR DREAM": Singing "Ridin' Solo." (END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:48:58]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DERULO: Singing "Want to Want Me."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: You've all heard the song. It was impossible to escape in 2009 when Poppy was at the clubs --

HARLOW: I was.

MATTINGLY: -- and I was at the clubs.

HARLOW: I was. I was cool back then.

MATTINGLY: It was the chart-topping debut -- you're still cool, Poppy.

HARLOW: Some say.

MATTINGLY: Chart-topping debut single from the 19-year-old son of Haitian immigrants. Here's the song we're talking about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DERULO: Singing several songs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Well, that was several songs but the same element that is constant in every one of those songs, Jason Derulo. He's gone on to sell well over 250 million singles worldwide, earned 12 billion global streams, and built an unstoppable social media following of more than 110 million followers across all platforms.

Now, the multi-platinum global superstar is adding author to his resume with his new book "Sing Your Name Out Loud: 15 Rules For Living Your Dream." The one and only Jason Derulo joins us now.

[07:50:05]

HARLOW: Good morning.

DERULO: Good morning.

MATTINGLY: That's a hell of a resume. It kind of makes me feel a little inadequate over here. But that's also the reason why you wrote the book. Tell me why.

DERULO: Yes, partly. So I took a look at my life and I tried to figure out what it was within music when I made the biggest leaps of success -- of what it was in those moments that I was doing differently and what made me the one that kind of stuck out amongst the crowd.

And I started to utilize those same idealisms in business and then my businesses just started to flourish. I utilized the same in social media and social media exploded. And I was just like, wow. Like, it's the exact same thing in every facet.

So I was like I've got to write this book because there's a lot of dreamers out there that are giving up their dreams for grad school or something that their parents want them to do, and there's a lot of dreamers out there that feel like it's too late. But, I mean, I started different things within my 30s and they're still flourishing, right? So it's the same things that got me successful in one area that got me successful in other areas. So I was like I've got to write this book.

HARLOW: You talked about routine.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

HARLOW: I thought this was so interesting -- getting you through some of your hardest moments. Because now we see this, right? We see the celebrity with how many -- 110 million social media followers.

DERULO: Yes.

HARLOW: But you've also had, privately, some really hard times and routine helped you get through them.

DERULO: Yes, for sure. I mean, some of my lowest lows -- it's the routine that got me out of them, right?

So when I broke my neck back in 2014 and fractured my C2 vertebra I wasn't able to tie my shoes. I wasn't able to take a shower myself.

HARLOW: Yes.

DERULO: It was a time when I was really low. And it was supposed to be a really happy time. I was getting ready for this large tour. And it was one of the pinnacles of my life, right, and it quickly shattered when I broke my neck.

And my routine is what got me out of -- out of the situation. Waking up in the morning at the same time. Eating at the same time. Working on my music for about 10 hours in a day and then going to the gym at the same time and going to bed at the same time.

And within that routine, all of a sudden, seven months later when I was healed I had this incredible album which ended up being the -- one of my best-selling albums -- six platinum singles. And literally, it's just when I looked up. So I got used to winning the day as opposed to how am I going to get to -- through this seven months.

HARLOW: I love that -- winning the day. MATTINGLY: Yes.

HARLOW: Just get through it.

MATTINGLY: How important are the people around you? You get at this in the book in terms of your co-pilots and the people you have around you. And I'm thinking because I look at who you've done songs with, who you've written music for and with, and it's everyone you could ever -- Snoop Dogg, Lil' Wayne. Like every major star in the world.

DERULO: Yes.

MATTINGLY: How important is having those people around you?

DERULO: Um, it's a beautiful thing. I feel like you should learn from the people around you. And there's the cliche they say that you are the sum of the -- you know, the three people that you're -- you hang with most.

HARLOW: Do you believe that?

DERULO: Yes, yes, I really do.

HARLOW: Yes.

DERULO: But also, certain people in your life can say things that either bring you down or bring you up, right? And I think you need to choose those people very carefully because words make a difference. The things that you say about yourself make a difference and the things that people say around you make a difference.

If someone is constantly beating you down and telling you that you can't, can't, can't and that you should go in one direction, and you're actually trying to go this direction, you slowly start to believe those things and you slowly start to think that oh, maybe I should go the easier route. You need people that are picking you up all the time -- you know, lifting you up and making sure that you believe in yourself as much as you should believe in yourself.

HARLOW: Can we talk about the music industry right now? Because what I think is so fascinating is what AI is doing to music. We've covered it a lot on this show. We've talked about Drake and what that all means.

Where do you fall on this? And who -- like, I'm sure AI has made Jason Derulo's voice in songs.

DERULO: Yes.

HARLOW: Who owns that? Do you own that? Are you pro, against?

DERULO: So, not yet. I think they're still trying to figure it out. But, I mean, it is illegal to take someone's likeness. You can't just do that, right?

But AI hasn't figured out how to do emotion as of yet. These songs that you're hearing with other people -- it's still someone's voice and someone has to write that song, and then someone has to, like, do the voice, and then AI changes the voice into the artist. So it's still somebody really talented that's doing it. So it's not to the point where AI is taking over to the point of us actually feeling something.

MATTINGLY: Do you feel, though, that you need to get ahead of it? Because I think for stream -- the progression and evolution of music --

DERULO: It's only a matter of time.

MATTINGLY: -- in the business --

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- from streaming what we've seen and the illegal downloads to streaming --

DERULO: Yes.

MATTINGLY: -- to where I think artists oftentimes felt like they were behind the ball or weren't getting what they deserved.

HARLOW: Phil and I are preparing to be replaced by AI --

MATTINGLY: Yes.

HARLOW: -- and we're wondering if you are, too.

MATTINGLY: Yes, basically.

[07:55:00]

DERULO: I don't think so. I just -- I think -- I think we appreciate a realness, I think. And until it's proved otherwise and until AI can give heart, I think we're safe.

HARLOW: Can I just ask -- you're the son of Haitian immigrants.

DERULO: Yes.

HARLOW: Seeing what Haiti is going through right now and has gone through for years -- really, since the earthquake -- and politically there, just your thoughts on what your parents came from and where you are.

DERULO: So, Haiti is everything for me. So my next chapter in my life is really about building up myself so that I can continue to build up where I'm from. I am, as you know, from Haitian parents and they worked really hard to get to a point. And for me, every time I go back to Haiti my heart is just broken over and over and over again every single time I go back.

And they're just the strongest people in the world. I just feel like they are the most resilient people on the planet. But we just -- we just need a break and I want to be a small part of that break if I -- if I can be. So everything that I'm doing, as of now, the end goal is to change where Haiti is at.

HARLOW: It really is a -- we've spent almost a week in Haiti -- rural Haiti with some of the most remarkable people for a CNN report. And it really is an -- a magical place.

MATTINGLY: It is.

HARLOW: -- that deserves a lot.

DERULO: Absolutely. And it's such incredible beaches and such amazing food and I want the world to experience that part. You know, we always talk about, like, the down parts of Haiti --

HARLOW: You're right.

DERULO: -- but there are just so many amazing things about it. And if people went more they would realize the beautiful side of it. We have some of the most beautiful beaches in the world in Haiti.

HARLOW: Congratulations -

MATTINGLY: Congratulations. It's a great book. It's really a great book.

HARLOW: -- on the book, and thank you. So good to have you.

MATTINGLY: It's a great message.

HARLOW: We'll send you out with this song. And his new book, "Sing Your Name Out Loud: 15 Rules for Living Your Dream" -- it's available now.

We'll be right back.

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[08:00:00]