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CNN This Morning

Bobby Ghosh is Interviewed about Putin; Meta Takes Aim at Twitter. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired July 05, 2023 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

BRITLEY RITZ, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Wind and hail going to be some of our bigger threats. We're talking over 60 miles per hour and one inch in diameter for hail.

Let's look at the timeframe. Of course, Wednesday morning, everything should be sub severe. It weakens and then redevelops as we get the heat and humidity to thrive. The storms, and you'll see that fire up right along Illinois, back into Indiana, about 5:00, 6:00. That weakens, and then round two sets up. And that will set up across the Plains, from Oklahoma City back into St. Louis yet again as we come into the overnight hours in early Thursday. Again, the heat and humidity helping to fuel these storms. We're well above normal temperatures. Back up into the 90s. We have heat index values reaching well over 100, hence why we have weather alerts in place, like heat advisories, as well as excessive heat warnings.

Poppy.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Britley Ritz, thanks.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the rivalry between Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg has just kicked up a notch, which is saying something since they challenged each other to a cage match. The latest move from Meta -

HARLOW: Oh, yes, there was that.

MATTINGLY: Yes, that. That. From Meta to get you to stop tweeting.

HARLOW: Also, still ahead, wait until you see more of Erin Burnett's exclusive sit-down interview with President Zelenskyy. Hear what he has to say about the rebellion within Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: You're saying half - half of the Russian regions did not support Putin, but would support Prigozhin? So - so does that mean there will be another challenge to Putin's power?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [06:35:31]

HARLOW: This morning, President Zelenskyy says that new intelligence suggests Russian troops have placed objects resembling explosives on the roof of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. Zelenskyy says it could be an attempt to simulate an attack. He calls Russia, quote, the only source of danger to the planet.

Meantime, in an exclusive interview with our very own Erin Burnett, President Zelenskyy claims the Wagner rebellion in Russia is proof Putin is losing control of his own people.

Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE (through translator): Half of Russia supported Prigozhin. Half of Russia supported Putin. We know from our intelligence reports that Kremlin was conducting all those surveys, 18 or 19 regions of Russia firmly supported Prigozhin's actions, 21 regions of Russia firmly supported Putin. Some of the Russian regions were in the balancing (ph) in the meantime without knowing for sure who to support. We all see this process that shows half of the Russian population is in serious doubt. All those stories that he controls everything, these are feeble stories now.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: But you're saying half - half of the Russian regions did not support Putin, would support Prigozhin. So - so does that mean there will be another challenge to Putin's power? I mean that's - that's a dramatic split.

ZELENSKYY: I think that Putin will make an attempt on consolidate his society. He will make everything in order to break and nullify the Wagnerite's (ph) fame and everything they were doing. He will be distancing himself from all that and will be communicating extensively in order to unify the society. This society is ununified. Pay attention to this interesting example. After all these events, where did Putin go? I can tell you, he rarely comes out to the street. We see him in his offices, et cetera, but we never see him out and about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Joining us now to talk about this, and a lot more, Bloomberg editor and foreign affairs columnist Bobby Ghosh.

Bobby, it's great to have you. I just want your reaction to that segment of Erin's interview. We'll see the whole -- the whole interview tonight on - on her show. But just your reaction to what he is saying here that sort of half of the country is not allied with Putin.

BOBBY GHOSH, EDITOR AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG: Well, he's quoting - he's quoting statistics from his intelligence. It's a little hard to gauge the Russian mind right now just because Russians are not free enough to speak their mind. But it was quite revealing that when Prigozhin and his Wagner forces were making this march towards Moscow, nobody really got in the way. And we've seen videos in some towns that they were welcomed. But even when they were not welcomed, they were allowed to rumble through without much resistance. And that, in a country as tightly monitored as Russia is, that tells you something. That tells you I think almost as much as opinion polls about how Russians really feel.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it kind of strikes at the - remember the Anne Applebaum (ph) column we were talking about?

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: That apathy which you can use to your benefit if you are an authoritarian leader but can work against you very strongly in moments like this.

GHOSH: Yes.

MATTINGLY: You had a good note to us and -- when we were preparing for this about kind of the dynamics of Zelenskyy's asking to be brought into NATO.

GHOSH: Yes.

MATTINGLY: There's a major -- very significant NATO summit next week. President Biden will be heading there. There's a little bit of a game going on -- game is probably not the right word, but what Zelenskyy says in public versus what the U.S. says, the reality here, which is, there's no clear path anytime in the near term for NATO. What is the purpose of Zelenskyy continuing to press on this?

GHOSH: Well, he's - he is -- it is kind of a guilt trip here. He's saying to the west and to - to NATO specifically, you really should have me in the tent with you. I - I've -- my country deserves to be in the tent with you. We are effectively asking as your front line against your most dangerous enemy. Why are we - why are you not letting us in. He knows he won't be allowed into the tent, but he's, I think, essentially aiming for the next best thing, which is continuous support, more weapons to keep the fight going and at least the prospect in the future of getting into NATO. Nobody expects realistically that NATO will throw open its doors right now and admit them. There are plenty of people within NATO who are not yet ready for that. But if he can keep Ukraine front and center in the minds of all the NATO leaders, and if it means they'll open their checkbooks and that they will open their armories to him, that's good enough for the moment for Zelenskyy.

[06:40:12]

HARLOW: And that's why Zelenskyy was likely saying in that interview with Erin, needing Biden's support - President Biden's support now on this, right?

GHOSH: Yes.

HARLOW: Can we just go to your take of the news we gave at the top of this, that - that the Kremlin says that measures taken to counter a potential threat at Zaporizhzhia's nuclear plant. What should we make of - of this?

GHOSH: This is a real clear and present danger. I think for -- for months now there have been eyes on that plant. Western eye, Ukrainian eyes and, of course, Russians. And there's been plenty of signs of a buildup around that plant.

HARLOW: I mean the roof of it was hit by a shell.

GHOSH: And now we're - we're hearing that - yes, the roof of it. It's a nuclear - it's the biggest nuclear power plant in Europe. It's a very, very dangerous place. And for a while now the Ukrainians have been warning that the Russians may be preparing for something like this. And people in the west have been disregarding that by saying surely Putin won't be that reckless, surely he won't be that dumb.

But we've seen that recklessness is part of Putin's sort of his - it's part of his strategy. He blew up that reservoir, the dam -

HARLOW: The dam.

GHOSH: And flooded a huge part of territory that his own people control, that he controls. He can be reckless. So, it's - it's -- it would be, I think, a fool's errand to - to dismiss the possibility completely. We hope he won't be that reckless. The U.N.'s nuclear watchdog has been warning about this, has been trying to get in there every so often and take a close look at what's going on. I would not put it past Putin to do something.

HARLOW: But you think this language, out of Kremlin this morning, is pretext potentially? Because they're saying we're basically preventing - we're, you know, setting up precautionary measures to counter any threat from Kyiv at the plant.

GHOSH: Well, that's been Putin - that's been the Kremlin's standard line throughout this war. We're going into the war to prevent a war. We're invading Ukraine to prevent Ukraine from invading us.

MATTINGLY: We're annexing the -

GHOSH: Exactly.

MATTINGLY: Donbas region still as to - yes.

GHOSH: So -- so it's all sort of this kind of reverse psychology. So, yes, we should be very concerned about this.

HARLOW: Bobby Ghosh, thank you.

GHOSH: Any time.

HARLOW: So, you will want to watch Erin's full interview with President Zelenskyy. It's an exclusive sit-down. It is absolutely fascinating. It's tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, on "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT."

MATTINGLY: Well, the best part of a rollercoaster, quickly turning into the worst. This is literally my worst nightmare, when a ride in Wisconsin got stuck upside down for hours.

HARLOW: This is why I never go on them. I am terrified.

Also, in case you missed our Fourth of July in America special event last night, or slept through the fireworks in your city, here's the Macy's 47th annual Fourth of July fireworks show right here in New York City. Look at that.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:47:28]

MATTINGLY: Well, this morning, Mark Zuckerberg is getting ready to take on Elon Musk's Twitter. CNN has learned that Meta is set to launch a new app tomorrow called Threads. These are screen grabs that are released of what it will look like. Now, Meta describes it as a text based conversation app. Some users have taken to calling it a Twitter killer. The timing here is critical. As we've reported, Twitter has been facing turmoil under Musk's leadership. Ad sales, they have plummeted, and Musk has put a temporary limit on the number of tweets people can see each day.

Sara Fischer, Elie Honig, Errol Louis are all back with us.

And, Sara, I want to start with you because there have been so many efforts to unseat Twitter's dominance in this space. I understand Meta is brings a different scale to the table. Do they actually think that they can replace Twitter?

SARA FISCHER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA ANALYST: I don't know about replace it, Phil, but they can definitely take advantage of this opportunity. You know, Meta itself has seen ad sales slow, not because it's necessarily, you know, struggling so much, but the ad market is struggling. And so if there's an opportunity to be able to build more engagement through a rival app when they see that their biggest competitor is down, they're going to take it.

But, Phil, I want to get on something that you just said, There have been so many different companies that have tried to displace Twitter, whether it's Mastodon or Spil (ph) or any of these things, and they haven't really been able to do it. The one thing that Meta has is it's going to let people log into the new app with their Instagram accounts. So that's well over a billion people worldwide who will have the opportunity to very easily start a new account with their existing credentials. To your point, that does bring a different level of scale to this game that other competitors have not been able to do.

HARLOW: Why are you nodding, Errol?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean it's going to be interesting to see what happens if you unleash a billion people on a - what - as a competitor to what is now a broken business model. I mean Elon Musk broke Twitter. He paid $44 billion for a company that might be worth $15 billion. The content is not moderated. And that has driven away a lot of the advertising. He's now asking people to pay $8, which I - you know, most people are not going to do. In fact, they've gotten very little uptick on it.

And so he's really sort of changed the platform in a way that leaves it vulnerable. This was going to happen eventually, just in the nature of capitalist competition, but he really accelerated the process, left themselves open to attack, and now they've got a real big business headache that's about to present a challenge. You know, will it displace them? We'll see. I'm going to be trying it I guess like everybody else here.

MATTINGLY: Elie.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I'm not even going to try it.

MATTINGLY: Why not?

HARLOW: Why

HONIG: Because I can barely understand Twitter. I mean I'm like the last one to figure these things out.

[06:50:03]

MATTINGLY: (INAUDIBLE) like old people.

HONIG: Exactly. What is it just enough just in time -

MATTINGLY: Or you're too busy on TikTok and you're snapping and your Mastodoning and your other tech platforming.

HONIG: There's so many I can't even - I can't even keep them straight.

But, no, I mean, I - Sara made the point, like, Twitter has reigned supreme for a long time but nothing's forever. And I think if you mess with a product enough, eventually one of these challengers will break through.

MATTINGLY: Sara, can I ask, what does this say about Meta's kind of core business. They've constantly tried to branch out, to kind of hold three different platforms. Obviously you note the acquisition of Instagram, which I think has worked out fairly well for them. But given the kind of economic headwinds that tech companies are facing right now, is this a sign that they're trying to expand, build, bring in new revenue, or is this a sign that they feel like their current model is not sustainable?

FISCHER: No, this is just what they always do, Phil. They always copy apps. Most of the time it doesn't work because they're reactive and they rush them out too fast and then they have to shut them down. Think about them trying out the live audio space. They shut that down. They tried to build a newsletter competitor to Substack. They shut that down. So I think this is just part of their DNA. When they see an opportunity, they go for it. But what is their business? That's a critical question. For now and for the foreseeable future, the business model of Meta is to capture your attention and sell advertising around it. And so that's why an opportunity like this makes sense. If they can go after some of Twitter's user base and get a little bit of engagement, they can possibly sell more ads against it. The one area where I'm a little bit skeptical, though, is Meta, for the past year, has said, look, we want to get away from news, we want to get away from politics, we're entertainment now, we're fun. Well, try squaring that circle -

HARLOW: Yes.

FISCHER: When you own a public app that's akin to Twitter, where it's all about live conversation and political discourse.

HARLOW: That's such a good point.

FISCHER: I think it's going to be very hard for them.

HARLOW: And people are kind of nicer, at least to me, on Instagram than they are on Twitter. I think there's sort of like a knife factor on Instagram-ish and maybe this will all change.

The control room tells me I have to ask you about a cage match, Sara.

FISCHER: Oh, my God. This is so ridiculous. Basically -

HARLOW: I am least (INAUDIBLE) in this story.

MATTINGLY: That is such a copout. Don't blame that on other people. You're sitting there constantly thinking about the cage match and the dynamics of --

FISCHER: Well, OK, here's -

HARLOW: This is all he's been talking about all morning.

FISCHER: All right, so, basically, Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg are legitimately planning to fight each other in a cage match. I can't tell you how disappointed I am in Mark Zuckerberg for even entertaining this idea. This is the guy who was supposed to bring a little bit of like family values and sanity to Silicon Valley amid all of this craziness from Elon Musk. And in my opinion, even entertaining the idea brings him down to Musk's level. But I've got to say, it's keeping it interesting. It's been a slow summer.

HARLOW: What is that video?

MATTINGLY: That's Zuckerberg. Zuckerberg doing Brazilian jujitsu or something.

HONIG: Brazilian jujitsu.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

FISCHER: Yes, both him and Musk do this, do Brazilian jujitsu. Doesn't mean that I think that they should be squaring off in a cage match. But like, you know, let them do them.

MATTINGLY: Elie -

HONIG: Sara's a -

MATTINGLY: Would you - would you pay to watch them?

HONIG: Yes. Sara is - I - I know Sara is the master of all things social media. I will respectfully disagree. Go ahead. I mean let them do it.

HARLOW: Well, they should at least do it for charity or something.

MATTINGLY: Some money to be made there.

HONIG: IT's ridiculous. It's over the top ridiculous. Give the money to charity.

Listen, we're coming up on the 50th anniversary of the first Ali versus Frazier fight.

HARLOW: OK.

HONIG: So I can only assume this is intended as a tribute to that.

HARLOW: It should be like LeBron's the decision or something, right?

MATTINGLY: Please don't compare either of them to Ali or Frazier.

LOUIS: I - yes, it's not even going to be close. Elon Musk is, you know, I think 15, 13, 15 years older, 70 pounds heavier. It's not going to be pretty.

MATTINGLY: I do feel like this could unify the country. Just watching it. Not necessarily rooting for one side or the other. Like, give money to charity, watching these two people fight.

LOUIS: Money for charity.

FISCHER: Yes, but this isn't - this is not the example - no, this is not the example that we should be setting for future business leaders, that if you want to duke it out you've got to get into a cage match.

HARLOW: Thank you. Thank you.

FISCHER: This is ridiculous. You want to duke it out, make more money than your competitor.

HARLOW: I'm sorry. This is also another reason why we need more women in CEO positions, right, Sara?

MATTINGLY: Ow.

HARLOW: This would not happen.

MATTINGLY: Wait a minute, I don't disagree with that. HARLOW: We have to go says the control room who told me to ask about

the cage match, by the way.

Thanks, guys.

FISCHER: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Are you good?

HARLOW: I'm good.

MATTINGLY: That was fun. Not really (ph).

It was fun.

HARLOW: It says Phil.

MATTINGLY: I know. I know, I know, I'm just basking in the spotlight.

All right, the people who endured the chaotic July 4th travel rush, they're now heading home. Can the airlines and the FAA keep up with yet another busy day? Stick with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:58:45]

HARLOW: A scary time for some fair goers in Wisconsin.

MATTINGLY: That is a roller coaster. They were on it. And then it got stuck upside down, leaving eight of them hanging for hours. Video show as rescuer climbing up the side of the Fireball ride while passengers waited. No thank you.

HARLOW: Wow.

MATTINGLY: Officials say everyone was harnessed to keep them safe. Fire officials say because of the steer height of the ride, special equipment and rescue teams were called in to help. Nine person were treated at the scene and one person was taken to the hospital. Officials say the problem was caused by a mechanical issue.

HARLOW: Thank goodness for those first responders. I mean, look at this, treacherous. Hope everyone's going to be OK.

MATTINGLY: Indeed.

All right, CNN THIS MORNING continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Congress needs to step up and pass common sense gun safety laws.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two deadly mass shootings. In Philadelphia, the mayor announcing that the suspect is believed to have been randomly shooting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This country needs to reexamine its conscience and find out how to get guns out of dangerous people's hands.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hundreds of people took over Horn Street in southwest Fort Worth for an impromptu and chaotic street party that turned deadly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a lot of gunfire that just started ringing out and everybody just started running everywhere.

[07:00:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A federal judge has just blocked the Biden administration from meeting with the heads of social media companies.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two states' attorneys generals, Republicans, filed a lawsuit.